The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
The only problem for the Democrats is the trap they fell into last time. They hate Trump so much they become hysterical. Yes, he's a moron, but they have become children. I still watch CNN but it's become 'the bitch continually at Trump for being alive' channel.
They've become cartoon characters themselves. Joe may win, but it wil be narrower than it shoud be. In the end, that was Corbyn's problem. He couldn't shake off the juvenile hatred that permeated his campaign.
The difference is that Biden is rising above the juvenile nonsense and comes across as a President in waiting. More Presidential than the incumbent certainly.
It is outriders (many former Republicans) that are doing the attacks on Trump.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
If that is a pop at me it is just so wrong
I have consistently supported the return to work and warned that prolonged lockdown will see thousands of job loses, each one a crisis for someone
Indeed it looks like a member of my family is going to be affected shortly
To suggest it does not matter to me or my family is just unjustified
It might be me, but I am not sure how you jump from my snide remark (sorry!) to a debate on the merits of easing lockdown.
For my own part, I believe the economic damage is already done. It was circumstances and not the FAULT of Government that I arrive at my conclusion.
Up until the Cummings saga broke, I was with the Government for the most part. They tried to do the right thing for good or for ill. They followed heart and head. I do not call them out for that. Since Cummings, the Government has followed it's nose.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
Plus the government have called out Starmer. Being Captain Hindsight doesn't come across as great when you don't actually make any productive proposals yourself but then jump on every bandwagon afterwards.
I thought Parliamentary committees were supposed to try to avoid being overtly party political? It's incredibly damaging for Johnson to try to enforce party discipline by removing the Tory whip from Julian Lewis.
A degree of independence from backbench MPs has always been a feature of the Westminster system, and we can see now that Johnson is determined to squeeze any independence out of his party on all matters, not just Brexit.
It's a very dangerous development for our political system.
He doesn't care. He's wanted to be PM his whole life and now that he's here everyone should be supporting the amazing job that he's doing. We shouldn't be providing scrutiny or asking questions or having doubts, we should just be agreeing with Him and supporting Him and don't you know who He is. He has a majority of 80 78 and according to chief impartiality officer HYUFD that means he should do whatever he likes to ensure the prosperity of the country the future electoral prospects of the Conservative Party.
We know that Dom wants to reshape the system in his own Compo image. Perhaps that means we will see the parliamentarians banished to York so that He can simply rule by edict.
Move parliament to York and leave the government to get on with things in London? #ClassicDom
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
Plus the government have called out Starmer. Being Captain Hindsight doesn't come across as great when you don't actually make any productive proposals yourself but then jump on every bandwagon afterwards.
I have a lot of time for Joe. His problems are the hysterical woke community (a minority, but significant). He's in his seventies, and is of his time. The appointment of a black, female as VP, will look like special pleading, no matter how good she is. The attack lines write themselves.
I still think he'll win and make a reasonable POTUS, but people will expect miracles that won't happen.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
I don't think it is a mystery. The (more or less) only people who make differences in polls are those who can change their mind between mainstream parties. This group (more or less) consists of political centrists or moderates. The centre ground of moderate opinion is this:
Among usually Labour voters they are still Labour and the current situation gives them no great reason to change.
Among usually Tory voters they are still Tory but are prepared (see leader polls) to have a long and careful look at SKS but think the Labour party is not ready following their descent into authoritarian factionalism dominated by people who like Hamas better than HM the Queen and dance on Lady Thatcher's grave.
Goodness knows what is happening among the LD supporter. They and the party have become invisible.
The forgotten factor is the political version of the law of comparative advantage. To be in the lead in the polls you don't have to be better then useless. You just have to to a scintilla less useless than the other party. This makes anarchists sad. They have my sympathy.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
I thought Parliamentary committees were supposed to try to avoid being overtly party political? It's incredibly damaging for Johnson to try to enforce party discipline by removing the Tory whip from Julian Lewis.
A degree of independence from backbench MPs has always been a feature of the Westminster system, and we can see now that Johnson is determined to squeeze any independence out of his party on all matters, not just Brexit.
It's a very dangerous development for our political system.
He doesn't care. He's wanted to be PM his whole life and now that he's here everyone should be supporting the amazing job that he's doing. We shouldn't be providing scrutiny or asking questions or having doubts, we should just be agreeing with Him and supporting Him and don't you know who He is. He has a majority of 80 78 and according to chief impartiality officer HYUFD that means he should do whatever he likes to ensure the prosperity of the country the future electoral prospects of the Conservative Party.
We know that Dom wants to reshape the system in his own Compo image. Perhaps that means we will see the parliamentarians banished to York so that He can simply rule by edict.
Move parliament to York and leave the government to get on with things in London? #ClassicDom
Have MPs realised yet that he means Cape York, Greenland?
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
Plus the government have called out Starmer. Being Captain Hindsight doesn't come across as great when you don't actually make any productive proposals yourself but then jump on every bandwagon afterwards.
Bandwagon? What bandwagon
A cap with "Tit" embroidered on it would have completed that picture.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
The general public are skeptical as hell about most of the stuff now being done - mask, no mask, travel, don't travel. But willing to give the benefit of the doubt at least for now because they just want to get the Rona and this year over. Two things will happen: (1) Shagger understands reality, signs an EEA/CU in all but name deal and lies about the great victory as he did with the NI border and the Tories ride the glow wave of WE DID BREXIT, or (2) Shagger smells his own farts, we fall off the cliff and we get to watch him demanding that SKS stops asking why we have run out of fresh food and starts being supportive of all the new customs officials jobs he has created, which may be somewhat less rosy for the poll ratings
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
Why on earth does the government get to “vet and approve” opposition members? Very sinister. Slippery slope stuff that.
In a democracy, it is the electorate that choose the opposition, not the government.
That what the statute setting up the committee provides. It’s not a select committee, but one set up in its own terms to provide independent oversight. It gets to see highly classified material, so some vetting is inevitable. Once constituted, government should leave it alone to get on with its job.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Following the Julian Lewis error (a PR disaster) perhaps the next great plan will be to keep Scotland but abolish their representation in parliament and reduce Holyrood to a parish council with powers over park benches. Of course if this was sold as a simple move to shut Ian Blackford up so that we never heard him droning on again it might be a popular move.
Saw the photo then was surprised to see the poster was Rochdale and not isam! I'm guessing it's percolated more than I'd expected.
I support BLM the concept - there's an entrenched bigotry and racism issue in our society that needs to be removed. However, they took the knee thinking more about the short term "hey we'll look cool" especially to the mouth breathers who still support Corbyn. Instead they should have thought about the long term - the majority of politicians around the world have managed to combine not taking the knee with strident action.
What has SKS done? Taken the knee against racism whilst awaiting the "is my party institutionally racist" report and having to pay out libel damages for attacking its own employees pointing to its racism. If he wanted to draw a line under the past this wasn't the way to do so
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
I do appreciate someone else using the and Unionist full title. I think a lot of modern day Tories have forgotten the full name of their party. Thanks to the Conservative and Unionist Party I have just had to submit my first customs form so that I will be allowed to continue to sell products in my own country.
That the and Unionist Party would sign such an agreement, not understand what they have signed and then lie about what definitely won't need to be done rather shows up the and Unionist element, as well as the Conservative bit frankly. I have no idea what the Conservative and Unionist Party stands for these days as it clearly isn't Conservatism or Unionism.
Good. I dont even have hope of a smoking gun it as some who are practically drooling about it nobody do, but damp squib, mildly embarrassing or a train wreck it's about time.
The only problem for the Democrats is the trap they fell into last time. They hate Trump so much they become hysterical. Yes, he's a moron, but they have become children. I still watch CNN but it's become 'the bitch continually at Trump for being alive' channel.
They've become cartoon characters themselves. Joe may win, but it wil be narrower than it shoud be. In the end, that was Corbyn's problem. He couldn't shake off the juvenile hatred that permeated his campaign.
It could be. Trump is so infuriating that they definitely got complacent last time and you're right many of them are now so hysterical that they are sort of playing Trumps juvenile game. The hope is he is not in a position to play it as effectively this time, but they need to be careful.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Following the Julian Lewis error (a PR disaster) perhaps the next great plan will be to keep Scotland but abolish their representation in parliament and reduce Holyrood to a parish council with powers over park benches. Of course if this was sold as a simple move to shut Ian Blackford up so that we never heard him droning on again it might be a popular move.
Surely it would just be sold as the culmination of Blair’s original cheap bribe to his Scottish party base, ooops, idea?
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
Why on earth does the government get to “vet and approve” opposition members? Very sinister. Slippery slope stuff that.
In a democracy, it is the electorate that choose the opposition, not the government.
That what the statute setting up the committee provides. It’s not a select committee, but one set up in its own terms to provide independent oversight. It gets to see highly classified material, so some vetting is inevitable. Once constituted, government should leave it alone to get on with its job.
Leaving it to the electorate is a splendid idea, but there must (historically) be significant numbers of MPs who would fail to secure the highest levels of security clearance. There are one or two in recent times, including quite high level MPs, whose MI5/MI6 files might make interesting reading.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
That doesn't really matter, does it? The Conservatives and Unionists will do whatever Cummings tells them to do, through his mouthpiece Johnson, and the PB Conservatives will turn up on here, as usual, and tell us how wonderful it all is.
The Conservative and Unionist Party, as such, does not have a mind of its own.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
Risk of media filter in Mike’s post. He can only report on what media outlets publish, but bit of a coincidence that English-language media is bragging about two English-language projects. There are an awful lot of other projects out there.
This is about health, but it is also about money and power. A tremendous amount of money. So beware guff.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Following the Julian Lewis error (a PR disaster) perhaps the next great plan will be to keep Scotland but abolish their representation in parliament and reduce Holyrood to a parish council with powers over park benches. Of course if this was sold as a simple move to shut Ian Blackford up so that we never heard him droning on again it might be a popular move.
Sounds like a winner to me. I think if anyone is going to win the English around to my line of thinking its Ian Blackford.
It is not the point of the site to be a nationally representative focus group. Aside from people shouting into the void, the purpose of the site is to anticipate changes so that money can be made by making the appropriate bets.
Any old fool can look at the opinion polls and see that the Tories are comfortably ahead. The question is whether they will remain so.
Some people on here think that the leader ratings indicate that they won't. Other people point to other reasons why they will.
Pointing to the current leads says nothing about the future.
Good post. I think they will lead for some time, I don't think enough people are in a reflective mood to consider switching or truly assess the government right now, but that factors of time in office, labour fight back, chaotic leadership style, will combine to see that change significantly, even if they do a decent job for government (the default for which is ' a bit crap').
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
The government is a shambles and how it leads in the polls I do not know
And I still remain a loyal member but do despair at times
By the end of this parliament, the Tories might be ready for a long spell in opposition qagain. Or pull off another 1992, and delay the process for five more years.
Or a coalition. Or get elected twice more and delay the process for ten years. Or a hung parliament with no govt able to be formed and a second election straight away. Or.......the possibilities are endless, none are individually predictable or particularly likely.
It is likely it will be political chaos for years to come
Boris/Cummings have consistently been the source of chaos these past four years.
You mean they won brexit and you do not like brexit
No, I mean they undermined May by repeatedly opposing BrexitM seeded chaos in the commons and then got into office and unlawfully closed parliament, lied to the Queen and then got an elected on a promise to deliver an oven ready Brexit, which has since proven to be yet another lie.
Still brexit
You use Brexit as a device to close your eyes and switch off your brain. If Corbyn has done half the things this government has done you would be on the street. Brexit is more important to you than it is to me, the figleaf that justifies your support for this shambles.
I have never been on the street and nor would I
Brexit is important to millions and as far as support for HMG I am a conservative member and remain as such
Why do you spend so long trying to justify to people why you remain conservative member. To me it just shows that you aren't bright enough to see that the Tory party has become UKIP without Farage...
What do you define UKIP without Farage as though?
If you simply mean pro Brexit then that's a meaningless tautology.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
Why on earth does the government get to “vet and approve” opposition members? Very sinister. Slippery slope stuff that.
In a democracy, it is the electorate that choose the opposition, not the government.
That what the statute setting up the committee provides. It’s not a select committee, but one set up in its own terms to provide independent oversight. It gets to see highly classified material, so some vetting is inevitable. Once constituted, government should leave it alone to get on with its job.
Leaving it to the electorate is a splendid idea, but there must (historically) be significant numbers of MPs who would fail to secure the highest levels of security clearance. There are one or two in recent times, including quite high level MPs, whose MI5/MI6 files might make interesting reading.
Which is why the committee is made up of 9 MPs selected by their peers rather than all 650 MPs...
If you don't meet MI5/MI6's security standards you just don't get on the committee and someone else does.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
The general public are in general stupid, they are easily led by the nose by clever scheming people. It takes them a long time for the penny to drop.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
I think the point that the government is presently being cut some slack is more an observation than a defence. Given the competence in several areas has not been great and yet the polls have not yet reacted it also seems to be an accurate observation, so not sure what the issue is.
Indeed, a suggestion that they are being cut some slack due to the unique emergency situation essentially admits that when it recedes there will be a reaction as slack is not cut. So again not sure what the issue is.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Following the Julian Lewis error (a PR disaster) perhaps the next great plan will be to keep Scotland but abolish their representation in parliament and reduce Holyrood to a parish council with powers over park benches. Of course if this was sold as a simple move to shut Ian Blackford up so that we never heard him droning on again it might be a popular move.
Sounds like a winner to me. I think if anyone is going to win the English around to my line of thinking its Ian Blackford.
You arseholes might think you are smart but you will get what you desire soon enough.
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
The government is a shambles and how it leads in the polls I do not know
And I still remain a loyal member but do despair at times
By the end of this parliament, the Tories might be ready for a long spell in opposition qagain. Or pull off another 1992, and delay the process for five more years.
Or a coalition. Or get elected twice more and delay the process for ten years. Or a hung parliament with no govt able to be formed and a second election straight away. Or.......the possibilities are endless, none are individually predictable or particularly likely.
It is likely it will be political chaos for years to come
Boris/Cummings have consistently been the source of chaos these past four years.
You mean they won brexit and you do not like brexit
No, I mean they undermined May by repeatedly opposing BrexitM seeded chaos in the commons and then got into office and unlawfully closed parliament, lied to the Queen and then got an elected on a promise to deliver an oven ready Brexit, which has since proven to be yet another lie.
Still brexit
You use Brexit as a device to close your eyes and switch off your brain. If Corbyn has done half the things this government has done you would be on the street. Brexit is more important to you than it is to me, the figleaf that justifies your support for this shambles.
I have never been on the street and nor would I
Brexit is important to millions and as far as support for HMG I am a conservative member and remain as such
Why do you spend so long trying to justify to people why you remain conservative member. To me it just shows that you aren't bright enough to see that the Tory party has become UKIP without Farage...
What do you define UKIP without Farage as though?
If you simply mean pro Brexit then that's a meaningless tautology.
Right wing Nationalist verging on Fascists
Nothing like the fascists.
And should a Scottish Nationalist really be bemoaning other people's nationalism?
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Following the Julian Lewis error (a PR disaster) perhaps the next great plan will be to keep Scotland but abolish their representation in parliament and reduce Holyrood to a parish council with powers over park benches. Of course if this was sold as a simple move to shut Ian Blackford up so that we never heard him droning on again it might be a popular move.
Even before I finished reading, I felt that was a plan I could live with!
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
a "BIT" whiny, you are being very generous in my mind.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Following the Julian Lewis error (a PR disaster) perhaps the next great plan will be to keep Scotland but abolish their representation in parliament and reduce Holyrood to a parish council with powers over park benches. Of course if this was sold as a simple move to shut Ian Blackford up so that we never heard him droning on again it might be a popular move.
Sounds like a winner to me. I think if anyone is going to win the English around to my line of thinking its Ian Blackford.
It's a dilemma. If Scotland is let go we never hear his voice again but he gets what he wants. If he gets what he deserves and Scotland remains part of the union we have to keep on listening to the old bore.
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
The government is a shambles and how it leads in the polls I do not know
And I still remain a loyal member but do despair at times
By the end of this parliament, the Tories might be ready for a long spell in opposition qagain. Or pull off another 1992, and delay the process for five more years.
Or a coalition. Or get elected twice more and delay the process for ten years. Or a hung parliament with no govt able to be formed and a second election straight away. Or.......the possibilities are endless, none are individually predictable or particularly likely.
It is likely it will be political chaos for years to come
Boris/Cummings have consistently been the source of chaos these past four years.
You mean they won brexit and you do not like brexit
No, I mean they undermined May by repeatedly opposing BrexitM seeded chaos in the commons and then got into office and unlawfully closed parliament, lied to the Queen and then got an elected on a promise to deliver an oven ready Brexit, which has since proven to be yet another lie.
Still brexit
You use Brexit as a device to close your eyes and switch off your brain. If Corbyn has done half the things this government has done you would be on the street. Brexit is more important to you than it is to me, the figleaf that justifies your support for this shambles.
I have never been on the street and nor would I
Brexit is important to millions and as far as support for HMG I am a conservative member and remain as such
Why do you spend so long trying to justify to people why you remain conservative member. To me it just shows that you aren't bright enough to see that the Tory party has become UKIP without Farage...
What do you define UKIP without Farage as though?
If you simply mean pro Brexit then that's a meaningless tautology.
I meant that that the Tories had taken all of UKIPs policies, ditched a lot of their none UKIP-like MPs and that Farage isn't an MP.
But I will also take pro Brexit and utterly useless / incompetent at everything else (which is also UKIP without Farage).
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
A strong question. They probably pissed off other Tories on the committee for making them look like lemmings to boot. Forced them to bend the knee on something which shouldnt matter so much to no 10, and which it failed at anyway.
People dont mind being part of a heroic last stand, but they mind being part of a pointless suicidal charge.
That answer of Sharma reminds me how prorogation had nothing to do with Brexit, yet when it was ruled unlawful that was as attack on Brexit.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
Plus the government have called out Starmer. Being Captain Hindsight doesn't come across as great when you don't actually make any productive proposals yourself but then jump on every bandwagon afterwards.
Bandwagon? What bandwagon
A cap with "Tit" embroidered on it would have completed that picture.
How pathetic can these turkeys make themselves look.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Not answering that question was much better for him than either giving a truthful answer or spouting the official bunch of lies?
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
People might realise there's a massive clue in the name.
Especially in Scotland, where they campaign under that full name very deliberately.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
Plus the government have called out Starmer. Being Captain Hindsight doesn't come across as great when you don't actually make any productive proposals yourself but then jump on every bandwagon afterwards.
Bandwagon? What bandwagon
A cap with "Tit" embroidered on it would have completed that picture.
How pathetic can these turkeys make themselves look.
I am in the Starmer camp, but that stunt was akin to "Dad dancing".
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
Plus the government have called out Starmer. Being Captain Hindsight doesn't come across as great when you don't actually make any productive proposals yourself but then jump on every bandwagon afterwards.
Bandwagon? What bandwagon
A cap with "Tit" embroidered on it would have completed that picture.
How pathetic can these turkeys make themselves look.
I am in the Starmer camp, but that stunt was akin to "Dad dancing".
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Not a memo Johnson ever received, or if he did, read.
Vaccine: reminds me of 1955/6 and the race to get a one for Polio. The US and Uk had produced something, then the first had to be withdrawn and the second was delayed, due to over optimism. I was at school and parents had been told the UK one would be available. But that went wrong so we were offered a vaccine from Canada that appeared tried and tested. We all had that one which worked.. It is a salutory lesson in US and UK thinking they are best. It is places that do things quietly that are best. Again Canada seems to have handled the virus much better than ourselves. See they are keeping the border with US closed for another 6 weeks at least!
You can't do clinical trials involving thousands of people quietly. How would you even recruit volunteers ?
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Not a memo Johnson ever received, or if he did, read.
In that regard he really did have his cake and eat it.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Not a memo Johnson ever received, or if he did, read.
To be fair, he has made an outstanding effort with both.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
I think the point that the government is presently being cut some slack is more an observation than a defence. Given the competence in several areas has not been great and yet the polls have not yet reacted it also seems to be an accurate observation, so not sure what the issue is.
Indeed, a suggestion that they are being cut some slack due to the unique emergency situation essentially admits that when it recedes there will be a reaction as slack is not cut. So again not sure what the issue is.
Yes. Most people who aren't political obsessives understand that this was something that hit the country, over which they had little control. They don't blame the government for Coronavirus, and don't follow the daily political ins and outs of everything like most of us on here.
They are also disenchanted with the whole 'Westminter Bubble' and tun off most of the media coverage about whatever made Twitter angry today. They certainly don't care for what appear to be hyper-partisan and opportunist attacks on government, by people who we know would never agree with anything the incumbents did.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
We dullards, if you please.
I prove my own point!
LOL.
Incidentally, 'dullard' is an example of a linguistic virus. Many moons ago, I did a site search on the word, and the only two accounts that had ever used it were SeanT's and a certain other poetically inclined account no longer with us. Nowadays you see it here all the time.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Wasn’t it Norman Tebbitt who burned an opponent by snapping, ‘far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt?’
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
I do appreciate someone else using the and Unionist full title. I think a lot of modern day Tories have forgotten the full name of their party. Thanks to the Conservative and Unionist Party I have just had to submit my first customs form so that I will be allowed to continue to sell products in my own country.
That the and Unionist Party would sign such an agreement, not understand what they have signed and then lie about what definitely won't need to be done rather shows up the and Unionist element, as well as the Conservative bit frankly. I have no idea what the Conservative and Unionist Party stands for these days as it clearly isn't Conservatism or Unionism.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
We dullards, if you please.
I prove my own point!
LOL.
Incidentally, 'dullard' is an example of a linguistic virus. Many moons ago, I did a site search on the word, and the only two accounts that had ever used it were SeanT's and a certain other poetically inclined account no longer with us. Nowadays you see it here all the time.
SeanT., Byronic, Eadric, LadyG. Trendsetters one and all!
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
We dullards, if you please.
I prove my own point!
LOL.
Incidentally, 'dullard' is an example of a linguistic virus. Many moons ago, I did a site search on the word, and the only two accounts that had ever used it were SeanT's and a certain other poetically inclined account no longer with us. Nowadays you see it here all the time.
A chamber of commerce survey shows that a 1/3 of firms are planning to lay people off.
And that's just due to low demand due to Covid...
According to some on here that matters not a jot, as the Conservatives still have a ten point poll lead.
The Tories will have a lead until they no longer do.
And the election is 4 years away so they can do a lot in that time.
The bit I'm really waiting for is when it dawns on Cummings and co that the best way to win the 2024 election would be to ensure 59 MPs no longer sit in Parliament.
I am not sure I am with you. Are you suggesting a spot of gerrymandering might be in order?
I think the idea would be to dispose of all the Scottish MPs in one fell swoop. No gerrymandering required for that, but rather, a bit of u-turning. I am sure Cummings and Johnson would be up for that.
It would be great as far as I'm concerned but that is a very obscure minority opinion within the Conservative and Unionist Party.
I do appreciate someone else using the and Unionist full title. I think a lot of modern day Tories have forgotten the full name of their party. Thanks to the Conservative and Unionist Party I have just had to submit my first customs form so that I will be allowed to continue to sell products in my own country.
That the and Unionist Party would sign such an agreement, not understand what they have signed and then lie about what definitely won't need to be done rather shows up the and Unionist element, as well as the Conservative bit frankly. I have no idea what the Conservative and Unionist Party stands for these days as it clearly isn't Conservatism or Unionism.
Great post, also the Labour party has lost touch with workers and the Liberal Democrats are arguably no longer particularly liberal (and some would even say undemocratic). Confusing times. At least the SNP and Greens still do what it says on the tin.
This is going to be fun! Someone needs to start doing polling on this guy if he's actually making it to the ballot paper.
We also need to understand how serious he actually is, is he going to be a paper candidate doing it for publicity, or is he intending to raise serious amounts of campaign money?
Not quite true. Mugabe lost a rigged election against Tsvangirai. That’s why he had to use violence to hold on to power instead.
Edit - that article is disturbing though. It’s bizarre Downing Street thinks everything is in such good shape that it can afford to waste a huge amount of time and energy on pursuing a personal vendetta against somebody who managed the (let’s face it, not terribly difficult) feat of making Cummings and Johnson look like the tenth rate incompetent morons they are undoubtedly are.
I mean, it’s not like there’s a major pandemic raging, or our trade system is under pressure, or China are threatening war over Hong Kong, is it?
The only problem for the Democrats is the trap they fell into last time. They hate Trump so much they become hysterical. Yes, he's a moron, but they have become children. I still watch CNN but it's become 'the bitch continually at Trump for being alive' channel.
They've become cartoon characters themselves. Joe may win, but it wil be narrower than it shoud be. In the end, that was Corbyn's problem. He couldn't shake off the juvenile hatred that permeated his campaign.
Agree with you, CD, but whp should they have run with? Seems to me they didn't have an outstanding candidate so ran with a safe one.
The general public are a lot more willing to cut the government some slack in dealing with an unexpected global pandemic, than a bunch of political obsessives mostly operating with the benefit of hindsight.
If HMG was remotely competent, the general public would not need to “cut it some slack”.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
and the left are seemingly in the "aren't the public stupid for still backing the government/not seeing it our way" mood . Also not a good look and a big factor in why things like the euro referendum went the way it did and why their is a 80 seat majority built on working class areas
This is a site where we come to analyse potential trends from data.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
We dullards, if you please.
I prove my own point!
LOL.
Incidentally, 'dullard' is an example of a linguistic virus. Many moons ago, I did a site search on the word, and the only two accounts that had ever used it were SeanT's and a certain other poetically inclined account no longer with us. Nowadays you see it here all the time.
So just so I am clear, the latest, greatest theory is that this government is doomed by its own incompetence because it tried to fix the chairmanship of a Parliamentary committee and seems to have made a mess of it?
Does anyone seriously think that anyone not obsessed with politics and not thoroughly committed to their team will even notice? Anyone at all?
We have had a link to the fact that 1/3rd of the companies in the country are looking at redundancies post furlough. Its not so much wood from the trees as matchsticks to giant sequoias. We face the worst economic crisis in any of our life times. The success or failure of this government will be measured by how bad that gets. Nothing else matters.
So just so I am clear, the latest, greatest theory is that this government is doomed by its own incompetence because it tried to fix the chairmanship of a Parliamentary committee and seems to have made a mess of it?
Does anyone seriously think that anyone not obsessed with politics and not thoroughly committed to their team will even notice? Anyone at all?
Of course not.
But the flaw in your reasoning is that this particular story strikes at the heart of the one group of political anoraks thoroughly committed to their own team who can topple Johnson tomorrow - backbench Tory MPs.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Wasn’t it Norman Tebbitt who burned an opponent by snapping, ‘far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt?’
That quote is much older than Norman Tebbit!
Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. Proverbs 17:28
Not this again! Every evening during 2010-12 I'd get home from work, put the Six O'Clock News and hear Stephanie Flanders trying to explain why the evil Tories weren't making five million people unemployed.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Wasn’t it Norman Tebbitt who burned an opponent by snapping, ‘far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt?’
That quote is much older than Norman Tebbit!
Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. Proverbs 17:28
Saw the photo then was surprised to see the poster was Rochdale and not isam! I'm guessing it's percolated more than I'd expected.
What has SKS done? ... having to pay out libel damages for attacking its own employees pointing to its racism.
I missed this libel payments to employees one. Do you have a link?
I'm aware of Roy McCluskey seemingly giving about half a million of Union Members' money to the bloke who runs Skwawkbox for legal fees wrt Anna Turley, but not the other.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Wasn’t it Norman Tebbitt who burned an opponent by snapping, ‘far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt?’
That quote is much older than Norman Tebbit!
Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. Proverbs 17:28
The only problem for the Democrats is the trap they fell into last time. They hate Trump so much they become hysterical. Yes, he's a moron, but they have become children. I still watch CNN but it's become 'the bitch continually at Trump for being alive' channel.
They've become cartoon characters themselves. Joe may win, but it wil be narrower than it shoud be. In the end, that was Corbyn's problem. He couldn't shake off the juvenile hatred that permeated his campaign.
I rather agree about the danger (though I didn't see Corbyn's campaign as hate-filled) - I'm bored with the Guardian's habit of highlighting every bit of bad news for the Government even if there is better news on the same day. I don't want my newspaper to pander to me - just tell me what's happening, please. And if that's how I feel, presumably floating voters feel it more.
Mind you, the other papers are just as bad or worse in their own way. Despite everything I think the BBC makes more of an effort to be balanced.
There's going to be a lot of people in the media really upset if we don't get a hard recession. They give the impression of cheering loudly for every job loss, if it means they can land blows on the government.
As said previously, most people are prepared to cut those in charge a lot of slack for the events of this year. Next year though, that's going to be much more difficult, as the economic fallout has to be managed.
Why do they bother sending minister out who can’t or won’t answer questions they know they are going to be asked? It just makes them look (more) stupid
Why do ministers not bother to get answers on questions likely to be asked. It would probably only take 10 minutes assuming you had the mobile of other ministers.
Better to be seen as a fool than make headlines as a liar.
Wasn’t it Norman Tebbitt who burned an opponent by snapping, ‘far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt?’
That quote is much older than Norman Tebbit!
Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. Proverbs 17:28
I do wish more people followed that advice.
Sir Daniel Gooch, in twenty years as MP for Cricklade, never spoke in a Commons debate. He commented in his diary that ‘it would be an inestimable advantage to business if more members followed my example.’
But there is a certain irony that we, members of an internet chat forum, are discussing the advantages of not commenting...
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
The government is a shambles and how it leads in the polls I do not know
And I still remain a loyal member but do despair at times
By the end of this parliament, the Tories might be ready for a long spell in opposition qagain. Or pull off another 1992, and delay the process for five more years.
Or a coalition. Or get elected twice more and delay the process for ten years. Or a hung parliament with no govt able to be formed and a second election straight away. Or.......the possibilities are endless, none are individually predictable or particularly likely.
It is likely it will be political chaos for years to come
Boris/Cummings have consistently been the source of chaos these past four years.
You mean they won brexit and you do not like brexit
No, I mean they undermined May by repeatedly opposing BrexitM seeded chaos in the commons and then got into office and unlawfully closed parliament, lied to the Queen and then got an elected on a promise to deliver an oven ready Brexit, which has since proven to be yet another lie.
Still brexit
You use Brexit as a device to close your eyes and switch off your brain. If Corbyn has done half the things this government has done you would be on the street. Brexit is more important to you than it is to me, the figleaf that justifies your support for this shambles.
I have never been on the street and nor would I
Brexit is important to millions and as far as support for HMG I am a conservative member and remain as such
Why do you spend so long trying to justify to people why you remain conservative member. To me it just shows that you aren't bright enough to see that the Tory party has become UKIP without Farage...
What do you define UKIP without Farage as though?
If you simply mean pro Brexit then that's a meaningless tautology.
I meant that that the Tories had taken all of UKIPs policies, ditched a lot of their none UKIP-like MPs and that Farage isn't an MP.
But I will also take pro Brexit and utterly useless / incompetent at everything else (which is also UKIP without Farage).
Well which non-Europe, non-Brexit parties have the adopted that you object to or think are not appropriate for the Conservative Party?
Looking at UKIPs policies from their 2010 manifesto they had policies such as: * An immediate freeze on immigration for permanent settlement for five years * Abolishing elections to National Assemblies (eg Holyrood etc) * Introducing PR for Westminster elections * Increase nuclear power to 50% of UK electricity while limiting wind power * Requiring taxi drivers to wear uniforms
I don't see any of that drivel being adopted by the Tory Party, do you?
Interesting. When I was put on the Treasury Select Committee, a rival to the favoured Labour chair asked for my support, and I said I'd consider it. The Chief Whip, Nick Brown, asked me in and pleaded with me to support the favoured candidate (which I eventually did). It wasn't strictly proper for him to have a view at all, but he certainly didn't threaten expulsion if I didn't do what he said. In fact I don't remember any examples of that threat being made to anyone.
Lewis is a cold warrior of the old school - I'd expect him to be stern on China. But he's also an independent mind, and the Government seems unkeen on those. Ironically, this restores the tradition (hitherto respected by both parties) that no one party has a majority on that committee.
Lewis didn’t just vote for another candidate. He conspired with the opposition and broke ranks
I think you mean he followed the rules and allowed the committee to choose its own chairman rather than being dictated to by the Government.
In an ideal world the Speaker would be calling Johnson to parliament and asking him to explain his unparliamentary behaviour.
According to the BBC he lied to the Chief Whip. A parliamentary party only works as a collaboration. If someone doesn’t play by the rules they can’t be in the party
The chief whip had no business being involved in the election of the committee chair in the first place. The government gets to appoint the committee members from its own party; its gets to vet and approve all nominated opposition members. Once that is done, it is supposed to be entirely hands off.
As Grieve noted last night, the committee issues all its reports unanimously; it has to operate by consensus, There is no room for party politics in its operation.
The government is a shambles and how it leads in the polls I do not know
And I still remain a loyal member but do despair at times
By the end of this parliament, the Tories might be ready for a long spell in opposition qagain. Or pull off another 1992, and delay the process for five more years.
Or a coalition. Or get elected twice more and delay the process for ten years. Or a hung parliament with no govt able to be formed and a second election straight away. Or.......the possibilities are endless, none are individually predictable or particularly likely.
It is likely it will be political chaos for years to come
Boris/Cummings have consistently been the source of chaos these past four years.
You mean they won brexit and you do not like brexit
No, I mean they undermined May by repeatedly opposing BrexitM seeded chaos in the commons and then got into office and unlawfully closed parliament, lied to the Queen and then got an elected on a promise to deliver an oven ready Brexit, which has since proven to be yet another lie.
Still brexit
You use Brexit as a device to close your eyes and switch off your brain. If Corbyn has done half the things this government has done you would be on the street. Brexit is more important to you than it is to me, the figleaf that justifies your support for this shambles.
I have never been on the street and nor would I
Brexit is important to millions and as far as support for HMG I am a conservative member and remain as such
Why do you spend so long trying to justify to people why you remain conservative member. To me it just shows that you aren't bright enough to see that the Tory party has become UKIP without Farage...
What do you define UKIP without Farage as though?
If you simply mean pro Brexit then that's a meaningless tautology.
I meant that that the Tories had taken all of UKIPs policies, ditched a lot of their none UKIP-like MPs and that Farage isn't an MP.
But I will also take pro Brexit and utterly useless / incompetent at everything else (which is also UKIP without Farage).
Well which non-Europe, non-Brexit parties have the adopted that you object to or think are not appropriate for the Conservative Party?
Looking at UKIPs policies from their 2010 manifesto they had policies such as: * An immediate freeze on immigration for permanent settlement for five years * Abolishing elections to National Assemblies (eg Holyrood etc) * Introducing PR for Westminster elections * Increase nuclear power to 50% of UK electricity while limiting wind power * Requiring taxi drivers to wear uniforms
I don't see any of that drivel being adopted by the Tory Party, do you?
If the best you can respond with is things that even UKIP haven't suggested since 2010 you are struggling for a valid response...
So just so I am clear, the latest, greatest theory is that this government is doomed by its own incompetence because it tried to fix the chairmanship of a Parliamentary committee and seems to have made a mess of it?
Does anyone seriously think that anyone not obsessed with politics and not thoroughly committed to their team will even notice? Anyone at all?
We have had a link to the fact that 1/3rd of the companies in the country are looking at redundancies post furlough. Its not so much wood from the trees as matchsticks to giant sequoias. We face the worst economic crisis in any of our life times. The success or failure of this government will be measured by how bad that gets. Nothing else matters.
As well as what happens next.
The government are I think for most reasonable people getting credit for the actions taken such as the furlough scheme and the virus is now under control in this country as opposed to what we're seeing on the news abroad in the likes of the USA, Brazil or now South Africa.
The last decade has seen a bit of a "jobs miracle" in this country, though I don't think its a miracle its that Osborne etc did a good job.
If we see strong economic growth next year and another "jobs miracle" over the next four years then pathetic distractions like the latest failing by Grayling, or trips to Durham Council won't matter. If there's millions languishing unemployed and desperate for change, then such nonsense won't be the reason the election is lost either.
The only problem for the Democrats is the trap they fell into last time. They hate Trump so much they become hysterical. Yes, he's a moron, but they have become children. I still watch CNN but it's become 'the bitch continually at Trump for being alive' channel.
They've become cartoon characters themselves. Joe may win, but it wil be narrower than it shoud be. In the end, that was Corbyn's problem. He couldn't shake off the juvenile hatred that permeated his campaign.
I rather agree about the danger (though I didn't see Corbyn's campaign as hate-filled) - I'm bored with the Guardian's habit of highlighting every bit of bad news for the Government even if there is better news on the same day. I don't want my newspaper to pander to me - just tell me what's happening, please. And if that's how I feel, presumably floating voters feel it more.
Mind you, the other papers are just as bad or worse in their own way. Despite everything I think the BBC makes more of an effort to be balanced.
Having spent a large part of my career as a journalist I can tell you that bad news is always from a news perspective better news than good news
Comments
It is outriders (many former Republicans) that are doing the attacks on Trump.
For my own part, I believe the economic damage is already done. It was circumstances and not the FAULT of Government that I arrive at my conclusion.
Up until the Cummings saga broke, I was with the Government for the most part. They tried to do the right thing for good or for ill. They followed heart and head. I do not call them out for that. Since Cummings, the Government has followed it's nose.
https://twitter.com/englandcricket/status/1283657811357048833
I have a lot of time for Joe. His problems are the hysterical woke community (a minority, but significant). He's in his seventies, and is of his time. The appointment of a black, female as VP, will look like special pleading, no matter how good she is. The attack lines write themselves.
I still think he'll win and make a reasonable POTUS, but people will expect miracles that won't happen.
Among usually Labour voters they are still Labour and the current situation gives them no great reason to change.
Among usually Tory voters they are still Tory but are prepared (see leader polls) to have a long and careful look at SKS but think the Labour party is not ready following their descent into authoritarian factionalism dominated by people who like Hamas better than HM the Queen and dance on Lady Thatcher's grave.
Goodness knows what is happening among the LD supporter. They and the party have become invisible.
The forgotten factor is the political version of the law of comparative advantage. To be in the lead in the polls you don't have to be better then useless. You just have to to a scintilla less useless than the other party. This makes anarchists sad. They have my sympathy.
It gets to see highly classified material, so some vetting is inevitable. Once constituted, government should leave it alone to get on with its job.
What has SKS done? Taken the knee against racism whilst awaiting the "is my party institutionally racist" report and having to pay out libel damages for attacking its own employees pointing to its racism. If he wanted to draw a line under the past this wasn't the way to do so
That the and Unionist Party would sign such an agreement, not understand what they have signed and then lie about what definitely won't need to be done rather shows up the and Unionist element, as well as the Conservative bit frankly. I have no idea what the Conservative and Unionist Party stands for these days as it clearly isn't Conservatism or Unionism.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/labour-attempts-to-defuse-blair-s-parish-council-power-for-scots-1.59202
The Conservative and Unionist Party, as such, does not have a mind of its own.
Tories are beginning to sound a bit whiney. Not a good look.
Oxford and Moderna are definitely out in front for non-Chinese vaccines.
If you don't meet MI5/MI6's security standards you just don't get on the committee and someone else does.
Indeed, a suggestion that they are being cut some slack due to the unique emergency situation essentially admits that when it recedes there will be a reaction as slack is not cut. So again not sure what the issue is.
And should a Scottish Nationalist really be bemoaning other people's nationalism?
But I will also take pro Brexit and utterly useless / incompetent at everything else (which is also UKIP without Farage).
People dont mind being part of a heroic last stand, but they mind being part of a pointless suicidal charge.
That answer of Sharma reminds me how prorogation had nothing to do with Brexit, yet when it was ruled unlawful that was as attack on Brexit.
Even us dullards on the left, for the sake of our book, don't chose to ignore public opinion if we don't like it.
Have bought your recommendations and it is excellent
Especially in Scotland, where they campaign under that full name very deliberately.
How would you even recruit volunteers ?
They are also disenchanted with the whole 'Westminter Bubble' and tun off most of the media coverage about whatever made Twitter angry today. They certainly don't care for what appear to be hyper-partisan and opportunist attacks on government, by people who we know would never agree with anything the incumbents did.
Incidentally, 'dullard' is an example of a linguistic virus. Many moons ago, I did a site search on the word, and the only two accounts that had ever used it were SeanT's and a certain other poetically inclined account no longer with us. Nowadays you see it here all the time.
https://news.sky.com/story/why-boris-johnsons-brutal-revenge-could-make-a-bad-situation-much-worse-12029389
We also need to understand how serious he actually is, is he going to be a paper candidate doing it for publicity, or is he intending to raise serious amounts of campaign money?
Edit - that article is disturbing though. It’s bizarre Downing Street thinks everything is in such good shape that it can afford to waste a huge amount of time and energy on pursuing a personal vendetta against somebody who managed the (let’s face it, not terribly difficult) feat of making Cummings and Johnson look like the tenth rate incompetent morons they are undoubtedly are.
I mean, it’s not like there’s a major pandemic raging, or our trade system is under pressure, or China are threatening war over Hong Kong, is it?
Which is another of the dreadful 'fails' of US 'democracy'. Turnouts are disgraceful.
Does anyone seriously think that anyone not obsessed with politics and not thoroughly committed to their team will even notice? Anyone at all?
We have had a link to the fact that 1/3rd of the companies in the country are looking at redundancies post furlough. Its not so much wood from the trees as matchsticks to giant sequoias. We face the worst economic crisis in any of our life times. The success or failure of this government will be measured by how bad that gets. Nothing else matters.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52660591
But the flaw in your reasoning is that this particular story strikes at the heart of the one group of political anoraks thoroughly committed to their own team who can topple Johnson tomorrow - backbench Tory MPs.
Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. Proverbs 17:28
I'm aware of Roy McCluskey seemingly giving about half a million of Union Members' money to the bloke who runs Skwawkbox for legal fees wrt Anna Turley, but not the other.
Mind you, the other papers are just as bad or worse in their own way. Despite everything I think the BBC makes more of an effort to be balanced.
As said previously, most people are prepared to cut those in charge a lot of slack for the events of this year. Next year though, that's going to be much more difficult, as the economic fallout has to be managed.
But there is a certain irony that we, members of an internet chat forum, are discussing the advantages of not commenting...
Looking at UKIPs policies from their 2010 manifesto they had policies such as:
* An immediate freeze on immigration for permanent settlement for five years
* Abolishing elections to National Assemblies (eg Holyrood etc)
* Introducing PR for Westminster elections
* Increase nuclear power to 50% of UK electricity while limiting wind power
* Requiring taxi drivers to wear uniforms
I don't see any of that drivel being adopted by the Tory Party, do you?
The government are I think for most reasonable people getting credit for the actions taken such as the furlough scheme and the virus is now under control in this country as opposed to what we're seeing on the news abroad in the likes of the USA, Brazil or now South Africa.
The last decade has seen a bit of a "jobs miracle" in this country, though I don't think its a miracle its that Osborne etc did a good job.
If we see strong economic growth next year and another "jobs miracle" over the next four years then pathetic distractions like the latest failing by Grayling, or trips to Durham Council won't matter. If there's millions languishing unemployed and desperate for change, then such nonsense won't be the reason the election is lost either.