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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Can Johnson raise the Tories’ game above Easy mode? Can Labour

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Can Johnson raise the Tories’ game above Easy mode? Can Labour force him to?

Why did the Lib Dems choose the Tories over Labour after the inconclusive 2010 general election? Although only a decade ago, it could as well have been a lifetime given how much has changed since – and in the last five years in particular. But that change makes the question all the more pertinent.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    First!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Has summer returned?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Third!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Has summer returned?

    Morning! Yes it has. Cracking view of comet neowise at 0230 this morning.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2020
    I would argue that there is a bit of a flaw in this article in the characterisation of the Tories as a "fourth term" govt, or indeed that they are operating on "easy mode". This government couldn't really be further removed from that elected in 2010, whether in personalities, base of electoral support, policy priorities and objectives. Beyond the name "Conservative", this is, to all intents and purposes a first term government, arguably suffering all the dangers and pitfalls (and more) that many first term governments can experience.

    And with the ultimate political chancer at its head.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    IshmaelZ said:

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Has summer returned?

    Morning! Yes it has. Cracking view of comet neowise at 0230 this morning.
    Comets are harbingers of change, are they not?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Good article David
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2020
    RE: masks. If from now on politicians are going to go everywhere in masks to "set an example", will we need a new answer to the question "how can you tell if a politician is lying?"

    As per the substance to the issue of apparently deciding to make wearing masks mandatory in "shops" (as opposed to guidance backed up by powerful advertising campaigns to encourage 'social (un)acceptability) - it'll be interesting to discover how such legislation will be drafted. How will one know that one is entering a 'shop' as opposed to, say, a bar or restaurant? And what happens to "shops" which serve food or drink on premises?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    IshmaelZ said:

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Has summer returned?

    Morning! Yes it has. Cracking view of comet neowise at 0230 this morning.
    Comets are harbingers of change, are they not?
    doom I think
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    alex_ said:

    I would argue that there is a bit of a flaw in this article in the characterisation of the Tories as a "fourth term" govt, or indeed that they are operating on "easy mode". This government couldn't really be further removed from that elected in 2010, whether in personalities, base of electoral support, policy priorities and objectives. Beyond the name "Conservative", this is, to all intents and purposes a first term government, arguably suffering all the dangers and pitfalls (and more) that many first term governments can experience.

    And with the ultimate political chancer at its head.

    I think what you suggest is the line that has been sold by Cummings. After 23 years in oppositions the Conservative Party is back with a radical agenda. Radical agenda maybe, but it is being implemented with the arrogance of a government enjoying it's eleventh year in office. That is an error.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    IshmaelZ said:

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Has summer returned?

    Morning! Yes it has. Cracking view of comet neowise at 0230 this morning.
    Comets are harbingers of change, are they not?
    doom I think
    Bit late then, isn't it!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    alex_ said:

    RE: masks. If from now on politicians are going to go everywhere in masks to "set an example", will we need a new answer to the question "how can you tell if a politician is lying?"

    As per the substance to the issue of apparently deciding to make wearing masks mandatory in "shops" (as opposed to guidance backed up by powerful advertising campaigns to encourage 'social (un)acceptability) - it'll be interesting to discover how such legislation will be drafted. How will one know that one is entering a 'shop' as opposed to, say, a bar or restaurant? And what happens to "shops" which serve food or drink on premises?

    Some shops have parts that are cafes or restaurants, bu I’m struggling to think of one where it is difficult to tell which bit you are in. Do you have an example?
  • Can Johnson raise the Tories’ game above Easy mode? No, I think we've seen enough now to work out that there are no hidden depths to Johnson. What we currently see is what we get. He's a very good campaigner but a terrible PM and there are still almost 4 years until the next election.

    Can Labour force him to? It remains to be seen how much Labour can improve, but currently Starmer is popular and the party isn't. So a lot depends on whether voters start seeing Starmer as just another Labour politician or seeing Labour as having been changed by Starmer.

    But there's a third question: will it be Johnson who has the task of raising their game? My main conclusion from the last few months is the Tories aren't going to risk going into a 2024 election with Johnson in charge. So the question is whether Sunak, Javid or Hunt (for example) can raise their game, and the answer to that is that they couldn't conceivably do any worse than Johnson is.

    So, since this is a political betting site, my money is against Starmer being next PM. Next but one? Possibly. Actual next PM? The Tories aren't that daft.
  • Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    This can’t be a surprise to anyone though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited July 2020
    My other half says she's going to pick up some cloth masks. Can't abide our dust masks N95 respirators apparently.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Pulpstar said:

    My other half says she's going to pick up some cloth masks. Can't abide our dust masks N95 respirators apparently.

    I have ordered some today as I expect a shortage is comimg if they are made mandatory
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited July 2020
    alex_ said:

    RE: masks. If from now on politicians are going to go everywhere in masks to "set an example", will we need a new answer to the question "how can you tell if a politician is lying?"

    As per the substance to the issue of apparently deciding to make wearing masks mandatory in "shops" (as opposed to guidance backed up by powerful advertising campaigns to encourage 'social (un)acceptability) - it'll be interesting to discover how such legislation will be drafted. How will one know that one is entering a 'shop' as opposed to, say, a bar or restaurant? And what happens to "shops" which serve food or drink on premises?

    It is the people not wearing masks (and usually not socially distancing etc) that keeps me away from the shops. The places where appropriate discipline is followed are much more congenial, like Waitrose in East Cowes after coming off the Red Funnel. The ferry too was busy but well behaved and maskwearing well adhered to. Its great to be back on the Island.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    A complete disregard for the instruments of law. This doesn't bode well for November onwards if the result is not the one Trump is expecting.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    This can’t be a surprise to anyone though.
    It is like those frozen moments before one crashes head long into a tree. One knows it is going to happen, but one hopes it might not.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,138
    edited July 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Corbyn had a lot of hate for Tories in him, fat lot of good it did him winning over Tory voters.

    In any case who wins the next general election is largely out of Starmer's hands in my view. It depends entirely on the outcome of Brexit. If the transition period ends with no trade deal and WTO terms Brexit then Starmer has a good chance of becoming PM as he offers an acceptable alternative for Tory Remainers and soft Brexiteers who will then switch to Labour and the LDs.

    If however Boris gets a trade deal with the EU that protects the economy and ends free movement the Tories will likely be re elected whatever Starmer does.

    If the transition period is extended beyond the next general election then Leavers will return to the Brexit Party from the Tories and Starmer could get in on a split vote on the right
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Most unexpected headline of the year award?

    Doubts cast on EDF's ability to build power stations on time and budget
    (Telegraph)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Pulpstar said:

    My other half says she's going to pick up some cloth masks. Can't abide our dust masks N95 respirators apparently.

    I have ordered some today as I expect a shortage is comimg if they are made mandatory
    Wise. I have two fabric ones from - and don't laugh - Big Bloomers:

    https://www.thebigbloomerscompany.co.uk/collections/face-masks

    They make all their stuff in UK and Italy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Corbyn had a lot of hate for Tories in him, fat lot of good it did him winning over Tory voters.

    In any case who wins the next general election is largely out of Starmer's hands in my view. It depends entirely on the outcome of Brexit. If the transition period ends with no trade deal and WTO terms Brexit them Starmer has a good chance of becoming PM as he offers an acceptable alternative for Tory Remainers and soft Brexiteers who will then switch to Labour and the LDs.

    If however Boris gets a trade deal with the EU that protects the economy and ends free movement the Tories will likely be re elected whatever Starmer does.

    If the transition period is extended beyond the next general election then Leavers will return to the Brexit Party from the Tories and Starmer could get in on a split vote on the right
    Corbyn thought he did, but he had too many distractions like "hating" Israel, Northern Ireland Unionists, Blair and everyone associated with the pre-2015 Labour Party.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    The founding fathers did try.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Can Johnson raise the Tories’ game above Easy mode? No, I think we've seen enough now to work out that there are no hidden depths to Johnson. What we currently see is what we get. He's a very good campaigner but a terrible PM and there are still almost 4 years until the next election.

    Can Labour force him to? It remains to be seen how much Labour can improve, but currently Starmer is popular and the party isn't. So a lot depends on whether voters start seeing Starmer as just another Labour politician or seeing Labour as having been changed by Starmer.

    But there's a third question: will it be Johnson who has the task of raising their game? My main conclusion from the last few months is the Tories aren't going to risk going into a 2024 election with Johnson in charge. So the question is whether Sunak, Javid or Hunt (for example) can raise their game, and the answer to that is that they couldn't conceivably do any worse than Johnson is.

    So, since this is a political betting site, my money is against Starmer being next PM. Next but one? Possibly. Actual next PM? The Tories aren't that daft.

    The kremlinologists would tell you it is not Boris but Dominic Cummings running the show, and his puppet de jour is, again, not Boris but Michael Gove.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/10/downing-streets-reboot-has-michael-gove-dominic-cummings-heart/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    We are only a short few months away from the threat last December of the UK being run by authoritarian anti-liberals who support no-platformers, oppose free speech, support our enemies, loathe NATO, hate our friends, never criticise Russia and China and like Hamas more than they like HM the Queen.

    The performance of the hard left since December suggests they have not gone away.

    Blair had the work of Kinnock and Smith behind him, taking years, and still had to revolutionise his party to be elected against a useless Tory party in 1997. SKS has no such advantage.

    As a centrist I warm to SKS but he is still a million miles from me even thinking of voting Labour. And I think there are millions more who think the same.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    The founding fathers did try.

    It is just they never expected high office to be occupied by someone so malevolent as Trump. Even Richard Nixon knew where the line in the sand was drawn.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:
    That's sad. An age in football is passing.

    As an aside, that's the entire weekend's news sorted then.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Big Jack Charlton. RIP.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    I think the Tories always understand why people vote Labour. Only the very young and immature (members of the Bullingdon club perhaps until they grow up) will fail to understand the party of the better deal for the working class, the party of Attlee, Bevan and Jenkins.

    I wonder if any party can win an election that does not truly comprehend the other side. It is their voters' votes you need to win over. Something that even Laura 'Never Kissed a Tory' Pidcock may be beginning to comprehend. There is no doubt at all that Blair understood this very well.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133
    Theres something in this, particularly how complacency develops for a long time government and oppositions learn to raise their game by actually thinking and making some tough calls. The Tories have done a good job, politically, in keeping momentum up, and whatever opportunities the opposition offered up they still had to seize it, and they did.

    But 14 years will be a long time, and totally aside from any of their own actions the Tories' opportunities will be fewer. Can Labour get a grip at last? The job will be easier over time, but they mustn't allow their hatred of Boris to make themselves complacent about the task
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    The founding fathers did try.

    It is just they never expected high office to be occupied by someone so malevolent as Trump. Even Richard Nixon knew where the line in the sand was drawn.
    They anticipated demagoguery, but hard to predict the exact nature 200 odd years ago.

    Social media.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    He comes across as someone who has learnt how to “do politics” from a textbook.

    He’s doing all the right things but somehow comes across as a bit phoney.

    I suspect people will figure this out
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    I'll take a guess that that might well be promised, perhaps even sincerely, but any such review will fall down the priority list, arguing they need all the powers available to fix Trump's mess.

    Next thing you know its the end of a second Democratic term.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    My other half says she's going to pick up some cloth masks. Can't abide our dust masks N95 respirators apparently.

    I have ordered some today as I expect a shortage is comimg if they are made mandatory
    Wise. I have two fabric ones from - and don't laugh - Big Bloomers:

    https://www.thebigbloomerscompany.co.uk/collections/face-masks

    They make all their stuff in UK and Italy.
    I’m getting mine from an Anglesey based company. Very comfortable too & reusable

    https://www.virustaticshield.com/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    algarkirk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    I think the Tories always understand why people vote Labour. Only the very young and immature (members of the Bullingdon club perhaps until they grow up) will fail to understand the party of the better deal for the working class, the party of Attlee, Bevan and Jenkins.

    I wonder if any party can win an election that does not truly comprehend the other side. It is their voters' votes you need to win over. Something that even Laura 'Never Kissed a Tory' Pidcock may be beginning to comprehend. There is no doubt at all that Blair understood this very well.

    Exactly right. This is why if the economy unravels, as it looks like it will, Starmer's time may come without too much effort.

    All those on here now claiming Starmer a dud (and they may be right) were also declaring Blair to be Bambi, lightweight and over excited.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    One thing Ed Miliband did very early on was ditch Alan Johnson as Shadow Chancellor. Anneliese Dodds may be more qualified to do the job, and some of the criticism of her may be purely sexist, but she needs to raise her game fast. Yvette Cooper looks the obvious replacement if she doesn't.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,138
    RIP Jack Charlton

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133
    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    I think you are right about career politicians (though I dont think he counts as one). It goes too far and we get a reaction against a homogenized professionalised elite (eg when many top figures studied the same things, worked as spads and other political roles etc) , but it doesnt mean that learning political and legislative skills over time is a bad approach.

    I mean a major problem for Corbyn was he was a professional politician who liked to pretend he wasn't one because he was unorthodox. When he might have spent some of his 30 years in parliament learning political skills with MPs. It meant he was pretty good at one aspect of his job but hamstrung with another.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    alex_ said:

    RE: masks. If from now on politicians are going to go everywhere in masks to "set an example", will we need a new answer to the question "how can you tell if a politician is lying?"

    As per the substance to the issue of apparently deciding to make wearing masks mandatory in "shops" (as opposed to guidance backed up by powerful advertising campaigns to encourage 'social (un)acceptability) - it'll be interesting to discover how such legislation will be drafted. How will one know that one is entering a 'shop' as opposed to, say, a bar or restaurant? And what happens to "shops" which serve food or drink on premises?

    Some shops have parts that are cafes or restaurants, bu I’m struggling to think of one where it is difficult to tell which bit you are in. Do you have an example?
    Greggs. Some have a couple of tables in a corner, others don't. Does that make some branches cafes and others shops?

    In Leeds there is a bar that is also a bakers. Mask up to buy a loaf, no mask to buy a pint?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133
    edited July 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    He comes across as someone who has learnt how to “do politics” from a textbook.

    He’s doing all the right things but somehow comes across as a bit phoney.

    I suspect people will figure this out
    You probably said the same about Blair 25 years ago. It could I guess have been said more recently about Cameron pre-2010. Don't forget he too failed to scrape a majority at the first attempt.

    I am not entirely sure your "from a textbook" notion is wrong, but compared to the current incumbent whos source of reference would seem to be a copy of the Beano, I am not sure that is a bad thing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133
    alex_ said:

    I would argue that there is a bit of a flaw in this article in the characterisation of the Tories as a "fourth term" govt, or indeed that they are operating on "easy mode". This government couldn't really be further removed from that elected in 2010, whether in personalities, base of electoral support, policy priorities and objectives. Beyond the name "Conservative", this is, to all intents and purposes a first term government, arguably suffering all the dangers and pitfalls (and more) that many first term governments can experience.

    And with the ultimate political chancer at its head.

    To a degree. If they are unlucky or foolish they will be facing the weariness and complacency of a 10 year government coupled with the blundering awkwardness of a first term government
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    @LadyG fits those criteria 😂
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    Ed Balls
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    He comes across as someone who has learnt how to “do politics” from a textbook.

    He’s doing all the right things but somehow comes across as a bit phoney.

    I suspect people will figure this out
    You probably said the same about Blair 25 years ago. It could I guess have been said more recently about Cameron pre-2010. Don't forget he too failed to scrape a majority at the first attempt.

    I am not entirely sure your "from a textbook" notion is wrong, but compared to the current incumbent whos source of reference would seem to be a copy of the Beano, I am not sure that is a bad thing.
    I disliked Blair because he lied to my face about something when he was shadow employment Secretary. He knew that I knew he was lying but he did it anyway.

    Fundamentally he was charismatic and had a very high EQ. Starmer seems to me like he’s trying to hard - some consultant has told him he needs to emote and he’s trying really hard, but it’s like he’s straining to pass a difficult shit
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    I can't argue with that. It is disappointing, but I can only give it one like. Have you ever thought of standing for public office?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    Ed Balls
    Is it Ed Balls day already?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    I can't argue with that. It is disappointing, but I can only give it one like. Have you ever thought of standing for public office?
    Dunny on the Wold Parish Council would never be the same again. Perhaps even for the better!
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    Good morning all.

    I think David is half right here. As others have commented this government is not continuity Conservative and is most certainly not on easy mode. I think it aspires to be the most radical administration since Thatcher, but we'll see.

    Starmer has not had a good week. He lived up to his Captain Hindsight persona by trying to get an apology from the PM about what happened in Care Homes months ago, and then walked into an ambush on NHS parking charges. It's quite a few weeks now since the PM was obviously second best at PMQs.

    An hour or so later Dodds response to Sunak's Summer Statement was an ill-judged rambling rant. Already she looks out of her depth against Sunak and in doing so reinforces the view that Starmer's shadow cabinet is seriously under powered.

    Yesterday's YouGov reinforced how much Labour has to do to convince voters it is worth a hearing never mind being a government in waiting. Starmer should start by saying something of substance for once.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    humbugger said:

    Good morning all.

    I think David is half right here. As others have commented this government is not continuity Conservative and is most certainly not on easy mode. I think it aspires to be the most radical administration since Thatcher, but we'll see.

    Starmer has not had a good week. He lived up to his Captain Hindsight persona by trying to get an apology from the PM about what happened in Care Homes months ago, and then walked into an ambush on NHS parking charges. It's quite a few weeks now since the PM was obviously second best at PMQs.

    An hour or so later Dodds response to Sunak's Summer Statement was an ill-judged rambling rant. Already she looks out of her depth against Sunak and in doing so reinforces the view that Starmer's shadow cabinet is seriously under powered.

    Yesterday's YouGov reinforced how much Labour has to do to convince voters it is worth a hearing never mind being a government in waiting. Starmer should start by saying something of substance for once.

    What was the ambush on parking charges? I missed that
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    That's a fair article as usual from David (and his satirical deconstruction of the Opposition line on the mini-Budget is fair too). I would say however that Starmer has to play the long game - too much early aggression when the Government is perceived (whether rightly or not) as leading the country energetically in disastrous times would be dangerous.

    The first priority was to establish Starmer as a reasonably alternative PM and a serious bloke worth listening to, as well as building a loyal team. The next challenge will be getting past the anti-semitism report, which is imminent. Awkardly for the Opposition, recess then intervenes, but by the time Parliament returns in September the economic landscape will look menacing and Brexit will be looming. I'd expect much more aggression at that point.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    He comes across as someone who has learnt how to “do politics” from a textbook.

    He’s doing all the right things but somehow comes across as a bit phoney.

    I suspect people will figure this out
    You probably said the same about Blair 25 years ago. It could I guess have been said more recently about Cameron pre-2010. Don't forget he too failed to scrape a majority at the first attempt.

    I am not entirely sure your "from a textbook" notion is wrong, but compared to the current incumbent whos source of reference would seem to be a copy of the Beano, I am not sure that is a bad thing.
    I disliked Blair because he lied to my face about something when he was shadow employment Secretary. He knew that I knew he was lying but he did it anyway.

    Fundamentally he was charismatic and had a very high EQ. Starmer seems to me like he’s trying to hard - some consultant has told him he needs to emote and he’s trying really hard, but it’s like he’s straining to pass a difficult shit
    I remember how well Blair handled being slow hand clapped by some at the WI. He just had that personal charm that cannot be taught. Now, Starmer and co don't necessarily need to have that, but they need to be thinking long-term in my opinion. Arguments about testing and PPE will be long forgotten by the time we get to 2024. The response to the economic crisis is far more important in my opinion, and that's why getting the Shadow Chancellor right is critical.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    edited July 2020
    One other thing to add to the Labour fail David highlights is the target i.e the meal deal vouchers I suspect are going to prove surprisingly popular as will the grants for green house improvements.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    I hope the Senate Republicans who have enabled this suffer serious consequences.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    It's not hate he needs: it's passion. You should not hate your political opponents (though you might hate what they do). If you hate them as a party, it becomes difficult to understand why people vote for them, other than greed, stupidity or some other nefarious reason.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Interesting complaint in today's Guardian. Pubs which are primarily drinking places....... in other words, the sort which are, traditionally, 'at the heart off communities' are complaining that the VAT reductions, because they only apply to food and not to drink, discriminate in favour of the Wetherspoons of this world and against ye olde village hostelry.
    Personally when I go my local pub; I go for a pint and a natter, and go somewhere else ...... home......for a meal.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    I can't argue with that. It is disappointing, but I can only give it one like. Have you ever thought of standing for public office?
    Dunny on the Wold Parish Council would never be the same again. Perhaps even for the better!
    Mrs DA did once say that I should stand for the Parish Council - presumably as a way to get me out of the house on an evening. I outlined my plans to make the parish an autonomous enclave with its own heavily armed militia (I know where I can get my hands on a UH-1H) and run on the principles of parecon. She then suggested that maybe I should just play Scrabble online instead.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    alex_ said:

    RE: masks. If from now on politicians are going to go everywhere in masks to "set an example", will we need a new answer to the question "how can you tell if a politician is lying?"

    As per the substance to the issue of apparently deciding to make wearing masks mandatory in "shops" (as opposed to guidance backed up by powerful advertising campaigns to encourage 'social (un)acceptability) - it'll be interesting to discover how such legislation will be drafted. How will one know that one is entering a 'shop' as opposed to, say, a bar or restaurant? And what happens to "shops" which serve food or drink on premises?

    Some shops have parts that are cafes or restaurants, bu I’m struggling to think of one where it is difficult to tell which bit you are in. Do you have an example?
    Greggs. Some have a couple of tables in a corner, others don't. Does that make some branches cafes and others shops?

    In Leeds there is a bar that is also a bakers. Mask up to buy a loaf, no mask to buy a pint?
    I hadn’t thought of that type of establishment (avoiding the term shop or cafe as I can see your point).
    If I were going into one I think I would wear a mask unless I were eating or drinking there and then. What the law would say I have no idea, but my version of common sense would be wear a mask unless it is impossible, for example when eating.

    I am shielding at the moment but I did have to go to a hospital yesterday for treatment and so wore a mask. Does anyone know how to stop glasses steaming up?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    I think you are right about career politicians (though I dont think he counts as one). It goes too far and we get a reaction against a homogenized professionalised elite (eg when many top figures studied the same things, worked as spads and other political roles etc) , but it doesnt mean that learning political and legislative skills over time is a bad approach.

    I mean a major problem for Corbyn was he was a professional politician who liked to pretend he wasn't one because he was unorthodox. When he might have spent some of his 30 years in parliament learning political skills with MPs. It meant he was pretty good at one aspect of his job but hamstrung with another.
    I still expect Labour to take a poll lead before long. But it will mainly be down to the Tories' failings and an inability to meet the challenge of events, rather than because of an effective opposition.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    The founding fathers did try.

    It is just they never expected high office to be occupied by someone so malevolent as Trump. Even Richard Nixon knew where the line in the sand was drawn.
    Yes they did, they explicitly set up the constitutional that despots could be removed from power. What they didn't expect was an entire party apparatus supporting him.

    Because they were idiots. They thought they could prevent political parties from coming into existence.
  • I hope the BBC sticks to its guns and removes the license fee from over 70s. Utterly ridiculous it's free to them.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    I am not sure hatred for the Tories is the answer. On that metric all roads lead to Richard Burgon.
    He's too old school. He's bringing piss to a shit fight.
    Piss and wind does sum up Burgon. Are you suggesting some sort of opposition ninja? There isn't a name or face that springs to mind, they all seem dour and grey.
    The tories are going to fight the next election with all of the chicanery of the Brexit referendum with added shitposting and lies. Being worthy and clever with a fucking great haircut will be as much use as Mark Francois' bathroom scales.

    The opposition need revolutionary zeal combined with populist accessibility. The ideal would be an individual who combined the worst features of Mao Zedong and Graham Norton.
    I can't argue with that. It is disappointing, but I can only give it one like. Have you ever thought of standing for public office?
    Dunny on the Wold Parish Council would never be the same again. Perhaps even for the better!
    Mrs DA did once say that I should stand for the Parish Council - presumably as a way to get me out of the house on an evening. I outlined my plans to make the parish an autonomous enclave with its own heavily armed militia (I know where I can get my hands on a UH-1H) and run on the principles of parecon. She then suggested that maybe I should just play Scrabble online instead.
    You wouldn't be allowed to use the names of obscure weapons though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    My other half says she's going to pick up some cloth masks. Can't abide our dust masks N95 respirators apparently.

    I have ordered some today as I expect a shortage is comimg if they are made mandatory
    Wise. I have two fabric ones from - and don't laugh - Big Bloomers:

    https://www.thebigbloomerscompany.co.uk/collections/face-masks

    They make all their stuff in UK and Italy.
    I’m getting mine from an Anglesey based company. Very comfortable too & reusable

    https://www.virustaticshield.com/
    Thanks. Might invest in one of those as well.

    We could be needing these well into next year :disappointed:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Alistair said:

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    The founding fathers did try.

    It is just they never expected high office to be occupied by someone so malevolent as Trump. Even Richard Nixon knew where the line in the sand was drawn.
    Yes they did, they explicitly set up the constitutional that despots could be removed from power. What they didn't expect was an entire party apparatus supporting him.

    Because they were idiots. They thought they could prevent political parties from coming into existence.
    You sure about that? There were parties, although not the present ones, very soon after the War of independence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Charles said:

    I disliked Blair because he lied to my face about something when he was shadow employment Secretary. He knew that I knew he was lying but he did it anyway.

    BoZo lies to us every time he speaks.

    He knows that we know he is lying but he does it anyway.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Far be it from me to criticise David Herdson, but what a difference a week makes:

    However, it’s the third factor which is the most potent: political fundamentals. Keir Starmer has a considerable lead over Boris Johnson in terms of favourability, and is more-or-less level in ‘Best PM’ rating.

    Perhaps those favourability ratings are necessary but far from sufficient.

    I think Starmer was the right choice for Labour, but only because the other options were worse. I know people don't like career politicians, but there is something to be said for politicians learning the trade. I don't get the sense that Starmer has much nous. Perhaps he should seek some help from someone like David who very much knows his apples.

    I think you are right about career politicians (though I dont think he counts as one). It goes too far and we get a reaction against a homogenized professionalised elite (eg when many top figures studied the same things, worked as spads and other political roles etc) , but it doesnt mean that learning political and legislative skills over time is a bad approach.

    I mean a major problem for Corbyn was he was a professional politician who liked to pretend he wasn't one because he was unorthodox. When he might have spent some of his 30 years in parliament learning political skills with MPs. It meant he was pretty good at one aspect of his job but hamstrung with another.
    I still expect Labour to take a poll lead before long. But it will mainly be down to the Tories' failings and an inability to meet the challenge of events, rather than because of an effective opposition.
    Isn't that always the case that governments lose elections rather than oppositions winning them?

    I am not expecting cross over for at least six months. I expect the low double digit leads to return for a while before that comes to pass. There is no buyers remorse out there for Johnson yet.

    When the change comes, maybe Spring next year, it could be brutal for the Conservatives.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
    Trying to “make them realise they made a mistake” is not going to be a good idea.
    In one sense I think it is a category error: electorates don’t make mistakes because the question they are asked is who do you want, not who would be best.
    Even if you think it was a mistake (and don’t forget the alternative was Jeremy) you are not going to get very far telling electors they were wrong. You need to work out what their reasons were for voting the way they did and persuade them that those reasons no longer apply so they can now do something different.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    I hope the BBC sticks to its guns and removes the license fee from over 70s. Utterly ridiculous it's free to them.

    You'll be 75 before you know it!

    Thomas Hobbes was right "life is short, nasty and brutish", particularly if one can't watch Bargain Hunt!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    So Jeremy Hunt is in favour of compulsory face masks in shops.

    Thus proving that Hunt is not the sort of 'talent' we need in government.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    I disliked Blair because he lied to my face about something when he was shadow employment Secretary. He knew that I knew he was lying but he did it anyway.

    BoZo lies to us every time he speaks.

    He knows that we know he is lying but he does it anyway.
    Merely fibs!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Interesting complaint in today's Guardian. Pubs which are primarily drinking places....... in other words, the sort which are, traditionally, 'at the heart off communities' are complaining that the VAT reductions, because they only apply to food and not to drink, discriminate in favour of the Wetherspoons of this world and against ye olde village hostelry.
    Personally when I go my local pub; I go for a pint and a natter, and go somewhere else ...... home......for a meal.

    The admin burden of working out how to deal with govt 2 for 1 vouchers (for just 13 low volume days) will also be miniscule for the big chains but be very significant for your independents. Some may not bother with it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    In my experience there are at least three types of barristers. There are the human rights, legal principle types who are good at making a case or a speech but probably don't see a witness too often (a good friend of mine who is an immigration lawyer has not cross examined a witness in 20 years). There are your bookish types who earn their living answering difficult questions and providing learned opinions. They may venture into court occasionally but it is usually to get the court to rubber stamp some complicated restructuring that they have put together. And there are your jobbing barristers who are in the courts day in, day out, whether criminal or civil, who earn their living dealing with witnesses and cross examination all the time.

    I think that the fact he was a DPP has confused some people into thinking that SKS is in the last category. I doubt he ever was. Much more of the first category early in his career and then a bit of the second as he became more of an administrator. People claimed his questioning of Boris was "forensic". To me, it seemed wooden and that was painfully demonstrated this week when he found it impossible to think on his feet and change his tack. Those who expect SKS to get stuck in about Boris are going to be sadly disappointed.

    None of this means that SKS is not clever (he is) or that he is not a massive improvement on Corbyn (obviously). It does not mean that he cannot come across as careful, measured and Prime Ministerial. I think he can but David is right that he is much more suited to being PM than being LOTO.

    He has time to learn on the job but he will never, ever have the ready wit or cutting edge that either Cameron or Blair had. He just doesn't think that way. This wouldn't matter if he had a strong team around him but the shadow cabinet is very weak. Will he have the courage to bring back Hilary Benn or Yvette Cooper? The remaining Corbynites would not like it but he needs some gravitas and thinking around him. Dodds is a weakness and is in opposition to this government's strength. Its a problem he is going to have to sort.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    I hope the BBC sticks to its guns and removes the license fee from over 70s. Utterly ridiculous it's free to them.

    You'll be 75 before you know it!

    Thomas Hobbes was right "life is short, nasty and brutish", particularly if one can't watch Bargain Hunt!
    I think the full quote was"life is short, nasty and brutish particularly if one cant watch Bargain Hunt for free having it subsidised by your less well off kids and grandkids working to pay for it."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133
    edited July 2020

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
    Trying to “make them realise they made a mistake” is not going to be a good idea.
    In one sense I think it is a category error: electorates don’t make mistakes because the question they are asked is who do you want, not who would be best.
    Even if you think it was a mistake (and don’t forget the alternative was Jeremy) you are not going to get very far telling electors they were wrong. You need to work out what their reasons were for voting the way they did and persuade them that those reasons no longer apply so they can now do something different.
    By making them realise they made a mistake I did not mean telling them they made a mistake. As you say, that is telling them they were wrong, and people don't like that. By making himself more appealing and persuasive, sufficient numbers may come to that conclusion on their own than if someone hectors them about what an error it was.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    I hope the BBC sticks to its guns and removes the license fee from over 70s. Utterly ridiculous it's free to them.

    It was a Gordon wheeze. He seemed to like setting up lots of ways in which people would get money from the state. The cynic in me thinks it was because anyone trying to take them away (i.e. the Tories if they were being financially prudent) could be depicted as heartless, no matter how undeserved the handout was. This is particularly true of pensioners who vote in a much higher proportion than the young do.
  • As usual David Herdson writes a far higher quality comment piece than anything the commentariat would serve up in the weekend broadsheets. That's why weekend visits to PB are a must. Thank you David.

    It does though seem to me that the past couple of pieces from David have merely reflect the week's mood music. Last week the piece was predicting a Labour opinion poll lead before the summer ends, this one somewhat different after a week with the YouGov poll and more 'feel goodery' from Rishi Sunak.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929


    I am shielding at the moment but I did have to go to a hospital yesterday for treatment and so wore a mask. Does anyone know how to stop glasses steaming up?

    @Foxy suggested micropore tape, and he wears masks for a living. What works for me is pre-bending the mask before putting it on so it fits better over the nose. Google will no doubt supply other techniques, if you ask it nicely. Tbh I'm not entirely sure this whole pandemic was not genetically engineered as a marketing tool by evil laser eye surgeons.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133

    I hope the BBC sticks to its guns and removes the license fee from over 70s. Utterly ridiculous it's free to them.

    You'll be 75 before you know it!
    And it wouldn't be justified even then. So far the only reasons advanced for why its wrong seem to be 'we haven't paid it so far' and 'some of us don't watch it and are poor'. The former is a nonsense reason, and the latter applies to a lot more people thanthe over 75s.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Good article by the way. Starmer gets lots of credit for not being Corbyn, it is a very low bar. Id agree he is not great, but possibly it doesnt matter. His job is to make Labour credible again, he doesnt have to make them hugely popular or have a brilliant set of policies. Perhaps that process requires a steady plodder to set it up for the next leader to aim higher.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    To make 2 brilliant masks, get a pair of M & S pants (the trunk ones) with a fancy design printed on them. Just cut round the leg bits. Instant face covering. As they are elasticated they grip your face. Perfect and very comfortable
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
    Trying to “make them realise they made a mistake” is not going to be a good idea.
    In one sense I think it is a category error: electorates don’t make mistakes because the question they are asked is who do you want, not who would be best.
    Even if you think it was a mistake (and don’t forget the alternative was Jeremy) you are not going to get very far telling electors they were wrong. You need to work out what their reasons were for voting the way they did and persuade them that those reasons no longer apply so they can now do something different.
    By making them realise they made a mistake I did not mean telling them they made a mistake. As you say, that is telling them they were wrong, and people don't like that. By making himself more appealing and persuasive, sufficient numbers may come to that conclusion on their own than if someone hectors them about what an error it was.
    Yes, though I still think an acknowledgement that you understand the reasons for the previous vote and have now done something about it would help. Getting rid of JC and replacing him with SKS are a good start on that road, but might not be enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
    Trying to “make them realise they made a mistake” is not going to be a good idea.
    In one sense I think it is a category error: electorates don’t make mistakes because the question they are asked is who do you want, not who would be best.
    Even if you think it was a mistake (and don’t forget the alternative was Jeremy) you are not going to get very far telling electors they were wrong. You need to work out what their reasons were for voting the way they did and persuade them that those reasons no longer apply so they can now do something different.
    By making them realise they made a mistake I did not mean telling them they made a mistake. As you say, that is telling them they were wrong, and people don't like that. By making himself more appealing and persuasive, sufficient numbers may come to that conclusion on their own than if someone hectors them about what an error it was.
    Yes, though I still think an acknowledgement that you understand the reasons for the previous vote and have now done something about it would help.
    That would indeed be one way to convince people that continuing their previous rejection of you would be a mistake.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Off topic.

    Trump-Roger Stone, wow!

    It's not even wow, it is much worse than that and makes you despair at the state of the US
    The US constitution's presidential powers will need a good looking at if the Republic survives Trump.

    The founding fathers did try.

    It is just they never expected high office to be occupied by someone so malevolent as Trump. Even Richard Nixon knew where the line in the sand was drawn.
    Yes they did, they explicitly set up the constitutional that despots could be removed from power. What they didn't expect was an entire party apparatus supporting him.

    Because they were idiots. They thought they could prevent political parties from coming into existence.
    You sure about that? There were parties, although not the present ones, very soon after the War of independence.
    Well yes. Political parties are obviously going to form but Washington and others thought you could wish them away.

    https://www.history.com/news/founding-fathers-political-parties-opinion
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    "Working-class voters in Leigh do not regret voting for Tories after listening to chancellor’s summer statement"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/08/imagine-the-state-wed-be-in-if-corbyn-had-been-in-charge-the-view-from-the-red-wall
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133
    I demand justice!

    An Iron Age skeleton with his hands bound has been discovered by HS2 project archaeologists, who believe he may be a murder victim...

    Dr Wood said: "The death of the Wellwick Farm man remains a mystery to us, but there aren't many ways you end up in a bottom of a ditch, face down, with your hands bound.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-53366209
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    To make 2 brilliant masks, get a pair of M & S pants (the trunk ones) with a fancy design printed on them. Just cut round the leg bits. Instant face covering. As they are elasticated they grip your face. Perfect and very comfortable

    I got three purpose made masks from Ocado for less than I would have paid for M&S trunks.
    Having said that, does your method solve the glasses misting up problem?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
    Trying to “make them realise they made a mistake” is not going to be a good idea.
    In one sense I think it is a category error: electorates don’t make mistakes because the question they are asked is who do you want, not who would be best.
    Even if you think it was a mistake (and don’t forget the alternative was Jeremy) you are not going to get very far telling electors they were wrong. You need to work out what their reasons were for voting the way they did and persuade them that those reasons no longer apply so they can now do something different.
    By making them realise they made a mistake I did not mean telling them they made a mistake. As you say, that is telling them they were wrong, and people don't like that. By making himself more appealing and persuasive, sufficient numbers may come to that conclusion on their own than if someone hectors them about what an error it was.
    Yes, though I still think an acknowledgement that you understand the reasons for the previous vote and have now done something about it would help.
    That would indeed be one way to convince people that continuing their previous rejection of you would be a mistake.
    We seem to be violently agreeing with each other...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Good article by the way. Starmer gets lots of credit for not being Corbyn, it is a very low bar. Id agree he is not great, but possibly it doesnt matter. His job is to make Labour credible again, he doesnt have to make them hugely popular or have a brilliant set of policies. Perhaps that process requires a steady plodder to set it up for the next leader to aim higher.

    The paradox is that Boris won by being a better Corbyn than Jeremy Corbyn.

    What Labour needs to do is properly analyse and understand how and why Labour under JC overachieved in 2017 yet underperformed in 2019. I'm not sure its report even asked the right questions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    IshmaelZ said:

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Has summer returned?

    Morning! Yes it has. Cracking view of comet neowise at 0230 this morning.
    Comets are harbingers of change, are they not?
    doom I think
    Bit late then, isn't it!
    Only if it’s not on a collision course....

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,133

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To me KS doesn't look like has enough hate in his heart for tories. Angela Rodham Rayner would have been better.

    Those who hate them that much, or are more open about displaying it, will vote the best way to defeat the Tories regardless of Leader. Keir doesnt need to work on them, just not off put them whilst he works at people he doesnt need to shame for voting Tory, just make them realise they made a mistake.
    Trying to “make them realise they made a mistake” is not going to be a good idea.
    In one sense I think it is a category error: electorates don’t make mistakes because the question they are asked is who do you want, not who would be best.
    Even if you think it was a mistake (and don’t forget the alternative was Jeremy) you are not going to get very far telling electors they were wrong. You need to work out what their reasons were for voting the way they did and persuade them that those reasons no longer apply so they can now do something different.
    By making them realise they made a mistake I did not mean telling them they made a mistake. As you say, that is telling them they were wrong, and people don't like that. By making himself more appealing and persuasive, sufficient numbers may come to that conclusion on their own than if someone hectors them about what an error it was.
    Yes, though I still think an acknowledgement that you understand the reasons for the previous vote and have now done something about it would help.
    That would indeed be one way to convince people that continuing their previous rejection of you would be a mistake.
    We seem to be violently agreeing with each other...
    I love agreeing with people. Some people tell me that makes me a Yes man, and I tell them, absolutely, whatever you say, boss.
This discussion has been closed.