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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The end of the honeymoon

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited July 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The end of the honeymoon

Labour has not led in any GB poll since 28 July 2019, four days after Boris Johnson succeeded Theresa May as Prime Minister. They did so with a share of just 30%: one more than the Tories and one less than the combined Lib Dem and Brexit Party shares. It seems a lot more than eleven months ago.

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Go fourth.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2020
    And north of the border, the demise of the Ruth Davidson Party is almost complete: SLab are within MoE (2 points) of retaking second place from the SCons:

    Latest Westminster VI

    SNP 51% (+6)
    SCon 21% (-3)
    SLab 19% (nc)
    SLD 6% (-4)
    Grn 2% (+1)

    (Panelbase, 1-5 June; +/- change from UK GE 2019)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    It took nearly 12 months before the end of the SNP honeymoon after very narrowly winning power at the 2007 general election. SLab edged ahead in VI just a few days short of the first anniversary. But that poll was later shown to be an outlier; it was not until the summer of 2010 that SLab started posting consistent and clear VI leads, which only evaporated about a month before polling day in May 2011, which became an SNP landslide. Since then SLab have been in steady decline. So, apart from about a year late 2010-early 2011, you could say that the SNP honeymoon has lasted for over thirteen years now.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Thirty years ago, George Bush the Elder lead an international coalition that in short order liberated Kuwait, contained Iraq and wrapped up active hostilities in a relatively short period of time. Too short, in fact, for his re-election prospects. It was so quick, with few American casualties, that Bush #1 lost the advantages of being a War President - a mistake that Cheney-W administration did NOT repeat.

    Boris Johnson still has some of the glory of his amazing election victory. The time that was too short for him was he stay in the hospital. Because the minute he was discharged, his polling numbers started to fall. Instead of racing back to No. 10, he should have lingered in his sickbed a wee while longer. Be seen to act as PM again - but not from the corridors of power but instead from the halls of healing. That way, he would have projected leadership AND retained the sympathy vote.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    The interesting thing is that it hasn't happened already. Labour and the Tories have plateaued at around 42-38.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited July 2020
    tlg86 said:

    The interesting thing is that it hasn't happened already. Labour and the Tories have plateaued at around 42-38.

    A lot of Tory voters may still be uneasy about Labour. Remember, it’s not six months since it was led by a man who openly supported holocaust deniers.

    But Starmer has plenty of time to win them round. This Parliament will be a marathon, a la 1959-64, not a sprint as in 2010-15.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
    Perhaps his defense (if he truly needs one) might be similar to that of then-congressman and future governor Edwin Edwards of Louisiana, when he was asked on national TV if he'd accepted a bribe from Korean businessman Tong Sung Park back in 1970s. "Yes" was the answer. Incredulous, the interviewer followed up. "But, wasn't that illegal?" "Well," Edwards drawled, "it was illegal for him to give it to me, but it wasn't illegal for me to take it."
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
    Well, I haven't a Times sub, so can't read the whole thing, but from the first few lines it seems to be re-hashing something from 2007. If she's met with Desmond again, or discussed the matter agin, then, maybe, fair enough.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
    Perhaps his defense (if he truly needs one) might be similar to that of then-congressman and future governor Edwin Edwards of Louisiana, when he was asked on national TV if he'd accepted a bribe from Korean businessman Tong Sung Park back in 1970s. "Yes" was the answer. Incredulous, the interviewer followed up. "But, wasn't that illegal?" "Well," Edwards drawled, "it was illegal for him to give it to me, but it wasn't illegal for me to take it."
    Her defence, not his defense. I know you lot have spelling issues, which I have now reluctantly reconciled myself with, but Priti Patel is certainly not a “his”.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

    In late 1930s a National govt minister had to resign for leaking budget secrets (he was deeply involved in the stock market). In late 1940s Clem Atlee sacked one of his ministers for misusing a railway travel warrant,

    Methinks THAT is what voters want. They may not expect it, but when they see a politico with his hands in the cookie jar, generally they'd like to see his head on a pike.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
    Perhaps his defense (if he truly needs one) might be similar to that of then-congressman and future governor Edwin Edwards of Louisiana, when he was asked on national TV if he'd accepted a bribe from Korean businessman Tong Sung Park back in 1970s. "Yes" was the answer. Incredulous, the interviewer followed up. "But, wasn't that illegal?" "Well," Edwards drawled, "it was illegal for him to give it to me, but it wasn't illegal for me to take it."
    Her defence, not his defense. I know you lot have spelling issues, which I have now reluctantly reconciled myself with, but Priti Patel is certainly not a “his”.
    Sorry, got her confused with Davidson. Und wahtz wrrng mit ym spoelig?
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Anyone in a pub right now?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: considering skipping qualifying and just having a little bet on the race, around McLaren/Racing Point (well, Perez). Some interesting markets but not all can be bet on, as yet.

    Although, there are also some intriguing markets on winners without the big beasts for qualifying. The agony of choice.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
    Well, I haven't a Times sub, so can't read the whole thing, but from the first few lines it seems to be re-hashing something from 2007. If she's met with Desmond again, or discussed the matter agin, then, maybe, fair enough.
    If Patel has shown some remorse, or even just that she understood the problem since then, fair enough. But she hasn’t. Google Priti Patel corruption and you get a hair-raising list of incidents. When did it become a good idea to promote such dodgy characters to the lofty office of Home Secretary? Makes Tory Henry Dundas look like a paragon of virtue, and he was the last politician to be tried for impeachment in the United Kingdom.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    An interesting BBC study of why deaths in Japan have been so low:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53188847

    One possibility is significant pre-existing immunity arising from an earlier similar virus, which would tie in with the Oxford theory
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

    In late 1930s a National govt minister had to resign for leaking budget secrets (he was deeply involved in the stock market). In late 1940s Clem Atlee sacked one of his ministers for misusing a railway travel warrant,

    Methinks THAT is what voters want. They may not expect it, but when they see a politico with his hands in the cookie jar, generally they'd like to see his head on a pike.
    As I've made clear I'm no fan of the present Government, but if we're going to put someone's head on a pike I'd rather see it for something actual and more recent.
    However, as I said, I can't read the whole article. Does it say she's been meeting with Desmond more recently. She wasn't a minister in Dec 2017.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,213

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

    In late 1930s a National govt minister had to resign for leaking budget secrets (he was deeply involved in the stock market). In late 1940s Clem Atlee sacked one of his ministers for misusing a railway travel warrant,

    Methinks THAT is what voters want. They may not expect it, but when they see a politico with his hands in the cookie jar, generally they'd like to see his head on a pike.
    Are you not thinking of Hugh Dalton in 1947?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

    In late 1930s a National govt minister had to resign for leaking budget secrets (he was deeply involved in the stock market). In late 1940s Clem Atlee sacked one of his ministers for misusing a railway travel warrant,

    Methinks THAT is what voters want. They may not expect it, but when they see a politico with his hands in the cookie jar, generally they'd like to see his head on a pike.
    Didn’t Attlee sack Hugh Dalton for leaking budget secrets?

    Ironically the minister you are referring to, Jimmy Thomas, was also a Labour politician (albeit a Macdonald one).

    George Osborne and Gordon Brown should probably both be relieved that rule no longer applies.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    A good thread David. Maybe I just like facts rather than waffle. It's good to have some data behind this.

    I suggested at the time of the Cummings scandal that Labour would take the lead within 3 months and I'll stick by that.

    Interestingly, it still reverberates. I was chatting to someone in their 20's the other day, remarking that youngsters seem to have ditched precautions. She replied that it was Cummings who did it. "When we saw he didn't give a f*ck, we thought, 'why should we?'"

    It just goes to show how fucking thick some people are.....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Anyone in a pub right now?

    Got a brew pub across the street from my humble abode (now 11.30 pm Pacific time) . You couldn't pay me enough to get within ten feet of the place, let alone go inside.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Australia announcing a hard lockdown for a batch of Melbourne tower blocks
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    “...without Biden's working-class cred...”

    Huh?

    A quick glance at Keith Starmer’s early life clearly indicates that he is most certainly “working class” (which was still a thing in England in the 1960s).

    He was obviously very bright, and worked his way towards a good career.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    A good thread David. Maybe I just like facts rather than waffle. It's good to have some data behind this.

    I suggested at the time of the Cummings scandal that Labour would take the lead within 3 months and I'll stick by that.

    Interestingly, it still reverberates. I was chatting to someone in their 20's the other day, remarking that youngsters seem to have ditched precautions. She replied that it was Cummings who did it. "When we saw he didn't give a f*ck, we thought, 'why should we?'"

    It just goes to show how fucking thick some people are.....
    Indeed yes. Although that begs the question of why he’s in government.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.
    Desmond can try to buy influence if he likes, but the (now) Home Secretary should definitely not be selling it. The Times smells a rat.
    Well, I haven't a Times sub, so can't read the whole thing, but from the first few lines it seems to be re-hashing something from 2007. If she's met with Desmond again, or discussed the matter agin, then, maybe, fair enough.
    If Patel has shown some remorse, or even just that she understood the problem since then, fair enough. But she hasn’t. Google Priti Patel corruption and you get a hair-raising list of incidents. When did it become a good idea to promote such dodgy characters to the lofty office of Home Secretary? Makes Tory Henry Dundas look like a paragon of virtue, and he was the last politician to be tried for impeachment in the United Kingdom.
    TBH, I don't think she DOES understand the problem. I live in Witham and I've corresponded with her a couple of times, on personal issues, and on one in particular, where there was no advantage to herself, she was very helpful
    I've met her a couple of times, too.
    She's certainly lost some support locally over appearing to back down on a local issue after becoming Home Sec.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

    In late 1930s a National govt minister had to resign for leaking budget secrets (he was deeply involved in the stock market). In late 1940s Clem Atlee sacked one of his ministers for misusing a railway travel warrant,

    Methinks THAT is what voters want. They may not expect it, but when they see a politico with his hands in the cookie jar, generally they'd like to see his head on a pike.
    Didn’t Attlee sack Hugh Dalton for leaking budget secrets?

    Ironically the minister you are referring to, Jimmy Thomas, was also a Labour politician (albeit a Macdonald one).

    George Osborne and Gordon Brown should probably both be relieved that rule no longer applies.
    Yes, forgot about Hugh Dalton. And it was JT alright Re: National Labour, believe they had he highest % of MPs serving as ministers ever seen. Believe that when Harold Wilson was elected to Parliament in 1935, he was the only backbench NLMP.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    "Believe that when Harold Wilson was elected to Parliament in 1935, he was the only backbench NLMP."

    Harold Nicolson! MUST get to bed!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    “...without Biden's working-class cred...”

    Huh?

    A quick glance at Keith Starmer’s early life clearly indicates that he is most certainly “working class” (which was still a thing in England in the 1960s).

    He was obviously very bright, and worked his way towards a good career.
    I stand corrected. But think Uncle Joe has bit more of a Joe-six-pack-friendly image. More naturally comfortable having a beer in a bowling alley, that kind of thing. But could be wrong there, too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    "Believe that when Harold Wilson was elected to Parliament in 1935, he was the only backbench NLMP."

    Harold Nicolson! MUST get to bed!

    I was rather startled to find Wilson had been NL, or an MP at age nineteen!

    Sweet dreams.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited July 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Australia announcing a hard lockdown for a batch of Melbourne tower blocks

    Victoria seems to have a fight on it's hands

    Loved our stay in Melbourne a few years ago
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    "Believe that when Harold Wilson was elected to Parliament in 1935, he was the only backbench NLMP."

    Harold Nicolson! MUST get to bed!

    Wilson had been a member of the Liberal Club for a while at Oxford. It's alleged that shortly after he was first elected he bumped into the Liberal Whip, Frank Byers, who asked him what he was a doing there. Was he a journalist?
    Wilson replied that he was an MP, at which Byers exclaimed; 'You can't be; I've got the list of Liberal MP's and you're not on it!'

    Allegedly. And can't at the moment remember where I read that.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Betting Post

    F1: backed both Sainz and Norris, each way, to win qualifying without the top 6. On Ladbrokes with boost, that was 5.25 and 10.5 respectively, third odds top 2.

    I split a stake so it was roughly equally profitable either way. I think Perez could be a fly in the ointment, but I think the McLaren odds may be too long. We'll see.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    “...without Biden's working-class cred...”

    Huh?

    A quick glance at Keith Starmer’s early life clearly indicates that he is most certainly “working class” (which was still a thing in England in the 1960s).

    He was obviously very bright, and worked his way towards a good career.
    One of the lies that the English tell themselves is that they believe in aspiration. The national motto should be Know Your Place.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Dickson, aye. He will 'never surrender' when it comes to his own ambitions.

    The PCP should be working hard for ways to remove the blundering fool.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    “...without Biden's working-class cred...”

    Huh?

    A quick glance at Keith Starmer’s early life clearly indicates that he is most certainly “working class” (which was still a thing in England in the 1960s).

    He was obviously very bright, and worked his way towards a good career.
    One of the lies that the English tell themselves is that they believe in aspiration. The national motto should be Know Your Place.
    The same social prejudice exists in lots of countries.

    In Scotland we say “Ah kent yer faither.”

    In Australia they have tall poppy syndrome.

    In Sweden we have jantelagen.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if every nation and language on the planet had this concept.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
    Or be so brilliant that people will stretch a point.

    Cummings thinks he meets this criteria, of course.

    It would matter less if he was correct.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Mr. Dickson, aye. He will 'never surrender' when it comes to his own ambitions.

    The PCP should be working hard for ways to remove the blundering fool.

    I’m sure they are.

    PBers love speculating about splits within their opponents, but it doesn’t take a genius to see that it is going to get very nasty internally for the Tories in the next few years. Being UKIP-lite was great for one election, but is utterly unsustainable in the medium to long term.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    That is going back a bit, to be fair. I'm not saying that corruption won't be a dangling noose for the Tories, but people rather expect people in Desmond's position to try to buy influence and politicians to at least appear to be 'interested'.

    In late 1930s a National govt minister had to resign for leaking budget secrets (he was deeply involved in the stock market). In late 1940s Clem Atlee sacked one of his ministers for misusing a railway travel warrant,

    Methinks THAT is what voters want. They may not expect it, but when they see a politico with his hands in the cookie jar, generally they'd like to see his head on a pike.
    Are you not thinking of Hugh Dalton in 1947?
    It was a little harsh - an accident of timing. IIRC he was in the Central Lobhy walking towards the Chamber to give his budget speech when he spoke to the journalist
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    ydoethur said:

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
    Or be so brilliant that people will stretch a point.

    Cummings thinks he meets this criteria, of course.

    It would matter less if he was correct.
    What about Alastair Campbell. He ruled by fear.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Dickson, execution may be lacking.

    They should've axed May after she became the first leader in history to fall victim to her own ambush, instead they tolerate her weak leadership too long and may well repeated the mistake.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
    That’s the thing.

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    TBH, I don't think she DOES understand the problem. I live in Witham and I've corresponded with her a couple of times, on personal issues, and on one in particular, where there was no advantage to herself, she was very helpful
    I've met her a couple of times, too.
    She's certainly lost some support locally over appearing to back down on a local issue after becoming Home Sec.

    PP has been phenomenally fortunate that the Rona has mostly pushed the Calais to Dover canoe races out of the news. At any other time that would have been fatal for a Home Sec.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    I don't think sustained cross over will happen for a while, that is not to say we won't have a few good polls for Labour in the next month or two.

    Johnson has largely got away with the high fatality number. That might change if a second wave appears, but I am assuming it won't.

    I keep being told that the economy will bounce back quickly, but I am afraid I am not smart enough to see where that comes from. My view is sustained
    cross over might occur as the economy really starts to struggle towards the end of the year or into next year. If that comes to pass I can envisage a Labour lead growing exponentially as the recession bites. It will be at this point, Cummings and Jenrick and any similar subsequent events become significant issues.

    A new leader, maybe Hunt just before the GE might turn things around for the Conservatives. Someone not tainted by Johnson. I don't see any way back for Johnson, unless he is blessed with some sort of Falklands factor, and even then I am not sure that will pull him out of the abyss.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited July 2020
    IanB2 said:

    An interesting BBC study of why deaths in Japan have been so low:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53188847

    One possibility is significant pre-existing immunity arising from an earlier similar virus, which would tie in with the Oxford theory

    It’s an intriguing theory, but there’s no real direct evidence for it.

    The likelier explanation is the one discussed at length in the same story; the difference in social norms. Although there was no lockdown, people self-restricted - and social distancing and mask wearing have far higher compliance than over here.
    Or in the US.
    https://twitter.com/Bob_Wachter/status/1279252925240369152

    https://twitter.com/Bob_Wachter/status/1279252930227400704
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    ydoethur said:

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
    Or be so brilliant that people will stretch a point.

    Cummings thinks he meets this criteria, of course.

    It would matter less if he was correct.
    What about Alastair Campbell. He ruled by fear.
    and surprise
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting BBC study of why deaths in Japan have been so low:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53188847

    One possibility is significant pre-existing immunity arising from an earlier similar virus, which would tie in with the Oxford theory

    It’s an intriguing theory, but there’s no real direct evidence for it.

    The likelier explanation is the one discussed at length in the same story; the difference in social norms. Although there was no lockdown, people self-restricted - and social distancing and mask wearing have far higher compliance than over here.
    Or in the US.
    https://twitter.com/Bob_Wachter/status/1279252925240369152

    https://twitter.com/Bob_Wachter/status/1279252930227400704
    Tokyo is now spiking again - the scumbag governor, Yuriko Koike, who previously soft-pedaled the response in the hope of doing the Olympics, is now soft-peddling the response prior to her election on Sunday. I expect she'll do, "oh look, we have a spike, we're going to have to do a proper response again" after the polls close.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Read some extracts of Trump's speech. You can spot Stephen Miller prose a mile a way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    ydoethur said:

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
    Or be so brilliant that people will stretch a point.

    Cummings thinks he meets this criteria, of course.

    It would matter less if he was correct.
    What about Alastair Campbell. He ruled by fear.
    and surprise
    Our three main weapons are fear, surprise and the comfy chair...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    IanB2 said:

    An interesting BBC study of why deaths in Japan have been so low:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53188847

    One possibility is significant pre-existing immunity arising from an earlier similar virus, which would tie in with the Oxford theory

    I suppose it's progress that the BBC are apparently letting people write an article with actual information in it, you just have to stuff it down the bottom and make sure everything above the fold is hot garbage.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    I tend to agree. If legacy is important to Johnson, I can't see him giving up without a fight to the end. If he does survive the ruthless Tory machine, he will keep gambling until he loses his last chip to save his legacy.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    The Patel story from the Times

    Two weeks before she became home secretary, last July, Ms Patel wrote a piece for the Conservative Home website in which she described raising the jackpot to £1 million as a “win-win” situation for charities and lotteries. Later that month the government announced it was increasing the annual sales limit from £10 million to £50 million and the maximum jackpot from £400,000 to £500,000.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    This from the Trump administration is just lunacy.

    https://twitter.com/mlipsitch/status/1279226903803629569
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    I don't think sustained cross over will happen for a while, that is not to say we won't have a few good polls for Labour in the next month or two.

    Johnson has largely got away with the high fatality number. That might change if a second wave appears, but I am assuming it won't.

    I keep being told that the economy will bounce back quickly, but I am afraid I am not smart enough to see where that comes from. My view is sustained
    cross over might occur as the economy really starts to struggle towards the end of the year or into next year. If that comes to pass I can envisage a Labour lead growing exponentially as the recession bites. It will be at this point, Cummings and Jenrick and any similar subsequent events become significant issues.

    A new leader, maybe Hunt just before the GE might turn things around for the Conservatives. Someone not tainted by Johnson. I don't see any way back for Johnson, unless he is blessed with some sort of Falklands factor, and even then I am not sure that will pull him out of the abyss.
    I tend to agree but not on Hunt

    Rishi Sunak looks in poll position but of course he has a big part in this story over the coming months which will define his future

    I cannot recall a more fractious political climate and where it goes who knows

    I would just say that I genuinely believe that if Starmer had been in charge we would be in a very similar position to as we are now

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    You’re arguing it could be worse?

    What we saw in the rose garden was damning all by itself. Cummings should have gone, but he didn’t because he’s the boss.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    We know how Cummings sacked Javid, by insisting on having Javids SPADS answerable to himself. That is defacto PM. He just lets Worzel Gummidge play with the toys.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    And there is an obsession with Cummings due to brexit, but if the reports are to be believed he forced lockdown before the scientists moved on it, and may even have saved thousands of lives

    The public enquiry will be fascinating and Cummings role in covid 19
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    tlg86 said:

    The interesting thing is that it hasn't happened already. Labour and the Tories have plateaued at around 42-38.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Labour fell back a little, such has been the speed of their recovery. Unless miracles happen I would be surprised if the floodgates don't open in 6 to 8 months giving Labour a sizeable lead by this time next year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
    Your obsession with Cummings and Boris dominates your posts, which seem to be 24/7, and yet they are both in post and despite all your efforts they can stay there as long as they want
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
    Your obsession with Cummings and Boris dominates your posts, which seem to be 24/7, and yet they are both in post and despite all your efforts they can stay there as long as they want
    Weird. Just plain weird.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    What a ridiculous assertion.

    If you do not see that train coming down the track you must have your eyes closed.

    The key is how the government handles the impact. I do not see how the best government in the world successfully mitigates the effect of the post-Covid shock. And this government is certainly not world beating.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
    Your obsession with Cummings and Boris dominates your posts, which seem to be 24/7, and yet they are both in post and despite all your efforts they can stay there as long as they want
    Weird. Just plain weird.
    Why
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
    Covid and the post Covid aftershock are not the fault of the UK government. I think that is accepted. Whatever Sunak does cannot be enough however hard he tries. He does not have the right tools, no one does. Sunak is bailing out the Titanic with a mop and bucket.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    IshmaelZ said:

    I give it a couple of months, and I think Jenrick and corruption will be major factors.

    Priti Patel called for new lottery rules after meeting with Richard Desmond

    Priti Patel lobbied for a relaxation of lottery rules that would have benefited a Conservative donor after they met privately.

    (£) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-called-for-new-lottery-rules-after-meeting-with-richard-desmond-gfv9shcsh
    They are all at it , a bunch of grifters have taken over the running of the country, lining theirs and their chums pockets with gay abandon.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    And there is an obsession with Cummings due to brexit, but if the reports are to be believed he forced lockdown before the scientists moved on it, and may even have saved thousands of lives

    The public enquiry will be fascinating and Cummings role in covid 19
    There won’t be one whilst the tories remain in power or it will be so long after the event that it’s output will be meaningless and the scope and investigative powers will make it irrelevant. What motivation does the government have to hold one?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    And there is an obsession with Cummings due to brexit, but if the reports are to be believed he forced lockdown before the scientists moved on it, and may even have saved thousands of lives

    The public enquiry will be fascinating and Cummings role in covid 19
    G you have lost the plot supporting these shysters. Cummings supported nothing but himself and more likely has caused thousands of deaths. At best he is an arrogant little sh*t with regards only for himself.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
    Covid and the post Covid aftershock are not the fault of the UK government. I think that is accepted. Whatever Sunak does cannot be enough however hard he tries. He does not have the right tools, no one does. Sunak is bailing out the Titanic with a mop and bucket.
    Fair comment but lets hope he can be innovative

    Also this morning media coverage does seem quite good for HMG and shows all the new precautions businesses have to take.

    Re-opening is a must and let us hope we all act responsibly in our interactions with each other
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
    The big problem this government seems to have that it believes it can rule by just giving speeches and annoucements rather than actually implementing the things they announce.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    ydoethur said:

    I've said before that the Cummings episode ran very deep. People still make jokes about it, and now there are jokes about PM Johnson.
    And they're not sympathetic jokes, either.

    The whole Cummings situation - not just the Durham incident - is a structural disadvantage for the government. We keep hearing how he is the de facto PM. But nobody voted for him. In our political system, if you want that kind of political power you should stand for office. People don't like it.
    Or be so brilliant that people will stretch a point.

    Cummings thinks he meets this criteria, of course.

    It would matter less if he was correct.
    What about Alastair Campbell. He ruled by fear.
    You're right, Campbell could be really scary, and he had that in common with Cummings. But otherwise their roles are completely different.

    Campbell was about communication, spin, the message, and party discipline. He had no real input on policy, other than to give advice about whether things would land well with the public. Blair, Brown and others in a strong cabinet determined policy.

    By contrast, it looks as if Cummings is the creative force behind much of the policy thinking behind this government, and most of the Cabinet are just ciphers for his creativity. He is not just a SPAD; he is the brains behind much of the government's agenda.

    So a hugely different role from Campbell, and a much more risky one for an unelected adviser.
    Sorry, on reflection I should be more succinct.

    Campbell was Blair's servant. Cummings is Johnson's master.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
    Your obsession with Cummings and Boris dominates your posts, which seem to be 24/7, and yet they are both in post and despite all your efforts they can stay there as long as they want
    Weird. Just plain weird.
    Why
    It implies you think people discussing politics in the comments section of a website are in some way important. Weird.

    You also said that Cummings and Boris can “they can stay there as long as they want“. Think about that for a moment. Really weird.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    nichomar said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    And there is an obsession with Cummings due to brexit, but if the reports are to be believed he forced lockdown before the scientists moved on it, and may even have saved thousands of lives

    The public enquiry will be fascinating and Cummings role in covid 19
    There won’t be one whilst the tories remain in power or it will be so long after the event that it’s output will be meaningless and the scope and investigative powers will make it irrelevant. What motivation does the government have to hold one?
    I expect they have every motivation as mistakes have been made but the way lockdown happened and taking into account Sage's minutes the four adminstrations have little to fear
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    And there is an obsession with Cummings due to brexit, but if the reports are to be believed he forced lockdown before the scientists moved on it, and may even have saved thousands of lives

    The public enquiry will be fascinating and Cummings role in covid 19
    G you have lost the plot supporting these shysters. Cummings supported nothing but himself and more likely has caused thousands of deaths. At best he is an arrogant little sh*t with regards only for himself.
    Cummings is no Conservative either with big or little c. He is the right wing equivalent of a statue smasher, smashing institutions instead.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Mr. Dickson, execution may be lacking.

    They should've axed May after she became the first leader in history to fall victim to her own ambush, instead they tolerate her weak leadership too long and may well repeated the mistake.

    And this was the party which ruthlessly pole-axed Maggie. The Tories have changed, and not for the better.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    tlg86 said:
    It gets worse.

    The relegation battle came to the forefront on Thursday evening, when EFL chairman Rick Parry was covertly recorded telling a football fan about “all sorts of rumours” surrounding Wigan’s situation. Parry said: “There are rumours that there is a bet in the Philippines on them being relegated because the previous owner (Dr Stanley Choi) has got gambling interests in the Philippines.”

    At a press conference on Thursday, administrator Krasner was asked by a Daily Telegraph journalist if he was aware of the origins of the change of ownership and presumably referencing rumours also passed to The Athletic, asked whether the club had been lost via gambling.


    Krasner replied: “I have no paperwork, nobody has mentioned gambling before this conversation. Any evidence would be obliged.”

    Gunnercooke, the legal representatives of IEC in the UK, declined to comment on either point and indeed all questions posed by The Athletic.

    https://theathletic.co.uk/1907722/2020/07/04/wigan-athletic-royle-efl-paul-cook-hong-kong-yeung/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The media keeps saying he’s the de facto PM. But he’s not. He’s an influential adviser but not the PM.

    What distinguishes the PM from any other minister?

    He sets the agenda. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    He can hire and fire ministers. That's Cummings, no BoZo.

    That's why people call him the de facto PM. He exercises the functions of the role.
    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors
    And there is an obsession with Cummings due to brexit, but if the reports are to be believed he forced lockdown before the scientists moved on it, and may even have saved thousands of lives

    The public enquiry will be fascinating and Cummings role in covid 19
    G you have lost the plot supporting these shysters. Cummings supported nothing but himself and more likely has caused thousands of deaths. At best he is an arrogant little sh*t with regards only for himself.
    You are putting your own unique anti everyone but SNP narrative into this Malc and ignoring that there is a growing belief Cummings intervened bringing lockdown forward and ironically with the approval of Nicola no less

    I simply do not know enough about Cummings and his beliefs but I absolutely do believe he should have resigned over his trip to Durham
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
    Covid and the post Covid aftershock are not the fault of the UK government. I think that is accepted. Whatever Sunak does cannot be enough however hard he tries. He does not have the right tools, no one does. Sunak is bailing out the Titanic with a mop and bucket.
    Fair comment but lets hope he can be innovative

    Also this morning media coverage does seem quite good for HMG and shows all the new precautions businesses have to take.

    Re-opening is a must and let us hope we all act responsibly in our interactions with each other
    My fear, after being generally supportive of the government's early handling of the pandemic is that reopening has been haphazard and chaotic. Johnson's presentation yesterday was littered with mixed messages. I hope fortune shines on him this evening and A and E and the pubs remain calm. Torrential downpours may help keep idiots at home.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Tres said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
    The big problem this government seems to have that it believes it can rule by just giving speeches and annoucements rather than actually implementing the things they announce.
    The media are expansive this morning over HMG releasing lockdown
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
    Your obsession with Cummings and Boris dominates your posts, which seem to be 24/7, and yet they are both in post and despite all your efforts they can stay there as long as they want
    Weird. Just plain weird.
    Why
    It implies you think people discussing politics in the comments section of a website are in some way important. Weird.

    You also said that Cummings and Boris can “they can stay there as long as they want“. Think about that for a moment. Really weird.
    Well maybe I should have said Boris and Cummings can stay to GE 2024
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.
    In Scotland I can see the Tories drifting back to core vote levels: 15 to 18 percent.

    May 2021 could be a bloodbath for the hapless Jack and Carlaw. More importantly for the long term I can see the SCons taking a total pounding at the May Scottish local elections, where they have strong representation. That’ll totally cripple their key activists and local media operations.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    That’s what the media says

    No one knows what happens behind closed doors

    We know he sacked the previous chancellor. That is not media speculation.

    We know he is setting the agenda. BoZo can't be arsed.

    There are no contrary stories. No denials. No ministers offering alternative narratives on the airwaves.
    Your obsession with Cummings and Boris dominates your posts, which seem to be 24/7, and yet they are both in post and despite all your efforts they can stay there as long as they want
    Weird. Just plain weird.
    Why
    It implies you think people discussing politics in the comments section of a website are in some way important. Weird.

    You also said that Cummings and Boris can “they can stay there as long as they want“. Think about that for a moment. Really weird.
    Some expedient boundary changes and voter suppression tactics could see BigG 's statement to be wholly accurate
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,134

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    “...without Biden's working-class cred...”

    Huh?

    A quick glance at Keith Starmer’s early life clearly indicates that he is most certainly “working class” (which was still a thing in England in the 1960s).

    He was obviously very bright, and worked his way towards a good career.
    Having cred with the working class has little to do with whether said person is or was working class themselves. People would laugh if Boris claimed to speak for the working class but the working class voters wouldnt. And Corbyn was a middle class guy whod spent his career at impotent protests but people thought he was the greatest labour leader ever.

    So I think Starmers upbringing is entirely irrelevant to his appeal and cred. He'll do better with the working class because of time, that he's normal and competent.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    Tres said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I would not be surprised to see crossover sooner rather than later.

    It is clear most people are still very worried by covid and nearly half the country have been financially protected by employment in the public sector or furloughed

    Boris has paid a big price for Cummings and his brand has taken a hit

    Whether this matters is not clear and the focus over the next few months will be on the economy, help for those suffering, and if covid can be contained

    Also Boris will be in place at the end of the year and responsible for the deal or no deal outcome of brexit

    The next election is 4 years away and many variable factors will determine just how that election pans out but I am far less worried now Corbyn is history

    How might a Biden presidency affect Johnson administration (where have I heard THAT before?) My sense is that election of Bill Clinton was not fatal to John Major, but it didn't do him any favors AND it gave Tony Blair an obvious role model.

    Keir Stumer sorta comes across like a Joe Biden with youthful vigor - somewhat like Joe himself back when he was borking Bork. Granted without Biden's working-class cred, but also without a propensity for foot-in-mouth disease.
    It will be too late to effect brexit but I would hope it would help to restore relationships, not just here in the UK but worldwide after the disaster that is Trump

    Hopefully the US will become a less confrontational country and to be honest any future trade deal would no doubt be based on firmer grounds than anything with Trump

    As for Starmer he is far more acceptable than Corbyn, but I very much doubt he will be up against Boris. I hope 2021 will see Boris step away as he will have concluded Brexit and I doubt he is in it for the longhaul anyway
    His self-delusion about being the new Churchill would tend to indicate otherwise.
    Yes, I wouldnt expect the polls to change much before the end of the year.

    For most people it doesn't really feel that Brexit is done. There has been no discernable change yet, so Johnson keeps that "Get Brexit Done" vote. That all changes in January. Where those votes go then will be interesting, but I expect them to fade.The economic hit and misery will be in full force by then too. Sub 30% Tory vote very possible by then.




    Pinning a lot of hopes on this 'economic hit and misery' aren't you?
    No, I find it profoundly depressing talking to my patients about it all. One this week had a daughter made redundant from a London fashion house, unable to get work anywhere. A furniture shop owner who hasn't sold anything for months, an employee at the Leicester Theatre that went into administration, etc etc. All this before furlough ends too.
    And everyone knows that this is an issue across the world due to covid

    Rishi Sunak is to address this later this week
    The big problem this government seems to have that it believes it can rule by just giving speeches and annoucements rather than actually implementing the things they announce.
    The media are expansive this morning over HMG releasing lockdown
    The problem is precisely prioritising the media reaction against how their actions play out in the real world.
This discussion has been closed.