One thing I have noticed on this thread is that seems it is ok after all for Westerners to openly consider themselves superior to Islamic nations on some matters... there goes that moral relativism out the window!
I've been saying that for years.
Which has led to accusations that I'm Islamophobic.
David Gottlieb has defended/appealed (and won) a number of high profile terrorism related cases, I suspect he knows what he is doing (and that is to win)
It may not be pretty, it maybe offensive, but he's doing the best for his client, as past history has shown.
To top it off at the end he spouted off about trial by jury being under threat. Relevance to the case, absolubtely zero. Oh and the cuts. It gave me the deep impression that he believes the claptrap he was spouting in the courtroom.
If he wants to save trial by Jury he could have kept his speech to a couple of hours. Thomas More chambers should cover the cost of the court tomorrow.
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
PS I'd just like it noted that I didn't just troll pb today, I trolled the entire nation. My Hate Preacher blog so far has 3k shares (and still rising)
Only Polly Tuscany's *eugenics* column has attracted similar pageviews, in the British media, today.
I meant to say earlier: that is a good piece.
I was mulling over one of your main points earlier. IANAL (and therefore am probably talking out of my posterior), but could it be that idiots like West, Smith, Rowley and the others you mention cannot get decent enough defence? They've done something stupid / silly / sick (delete according to preference) and are hardly cause celebres. I cannot see any Z-list celebrities queuing up to back them.
On the other hand, Choudary is, in his own sick way, a bit of a celebrity. He gets column inches and mentions on the TV and radio. He has supporters. Could it be that it is harder to prosecute him under the same laws as the others, simply because he has better and more expensive representation?
None of those cases should have ended in jail time for a first offence - or at least in the way they were described. But if you read about (say) Rowley, then you see it was for much more than just sending texts. Likewise, threatening to burn down anything is a little more serious that just being Islamaphobic - but even then it may not warrant jail time.
Time for Jack Straw and a few other people in the last Labour government and the security services to start to get very scared.
From The Times
Britain’s intelligence agencies and the former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw are to face a new investigation into the rendition and torture of terror suspects.....
.....Tomorrow Ken Clarke, will hand the task to a parliamentary committee. The move will be a blow to the intelligence agencies, which had hoped that the Government would say that there was no case for a new investigation.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
And would we want such a person walking around among us freely?
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
BUT WE TORTURE PEOPLE EVERY DAY, IN BRITAIN, BY LOCKING THEM IN TINY CONCRETE TOMBS, FOR 23 HOURS OUT OF 24
You can ignore this point as much as you like, but it is the case. You are merely objecting to certain kinds of icky torture. You are like a girl who will happily fellate, but draws the line at deep throating, then claims she is a nun.
Imprisonment/Punishment isn't synonymous with torture.
PS I'd just like it noted that I didn't just troll pb today, I trolled the entire nation. My Hate Preacher blog so far has 3k shares (and still rising)
Under the jackboot of various human rights tosh you probably wouldn't be allowed to set up a penal colony on say South Georgia. Would be a cracking deterrent though.
It would kind of suck for the residents of South Georgia. It would also be insanely expensive. Surely there's a large island some way away where the residents would even notice a few extra criminals?
A pedant writes. Are there in fact any permanent human residents of the island of S Georgia?
I believe there are not - just seasonal colonies of scientists studying the amazing birdlife, tho I could be wrong. It is said to be a quite stunning place, the jewel of Antarctica (if you don't mind the bleakness). Indeed hasn't an esteemed pb-er or two actually been there?
Under the jackboot of various human rights tosh you probably wouldn't be allowed to set up a penal colony on say South Georgia. Would be a cracking deterrent though.
It would kind of suck for the residents of South Georgia. It would also be insanely expensive. Surely there's a large island some way away where the residents would even notice a few extra criminals?
A pedant writes. Are there in fact any permanent human residents of the island of S Georgia?
I believe there are not - just seasonal colonies of scientists studying the amazing birdlife, tho I could be wrong. It is said to be a quite stunning place, the jewel of Antarctica (if you don't mind the bleakness). Indeed hasn't an esteemed pb-er or two actually been there?
I spent time there in 1982, a fantastic place to visit, would not like to live there. Has a very strange effect on your body clock and the constant wind gets very wearing.
Great idea, Torture them publicly, and create martyrs. And, torture is generally only useful to confirm things you already know. So it comes down to mindless brutality really?
Is TheScreamingEagles the first ever Polly Toynbee fan? Ever?
That is possibly the silliest thing written on this thread, and given one poster advocated punishing defence barristers for representing their clients, that's quite an achievement.
The scary/good thing is we have a resurgent India coming this summer. A chance to restore pride/take another shellacking.
It's also only 18 months until YET ANOTHER Ashes series.
Which we need to win to keep the urn for 2.5 years. So anyone who won't be around in June 2015 shouldn't play on Boxing Day.
Totally agree, that means the end of Anderson, Swann, Prior, KP, all great servants but time is up. Bresnan is not very good at anything, and I don't get the love for Root. He is like a spoilt child when he is given out, the review in the second innings was a childish tantrum.
Think the future is bright with the likes of Stokes, at last we have a proper number six.
Mr. Saddened, a psych study found (amongst other things) that a chap living in a cave with no natural light gradually shifted to a 25 hour day. He was surprised to be retrieved earlier than expected because of this.
@isam Quite apart from it being completely wrong to torture people, no matter what they have done, why do you want to imprison lawyers for doing their jobs?
It being wrong is your opinion, not a fact. I think it is wrong to torture almost anybody, except killers where there is no disputing their guilt. It would act as a deterrent for would be terrorists
Defending traitors should be a punishable offence
Even the most low life of scum is entitled to a defence.
Is TheScreamingEagles the first ever Polly Toynbee fan? Ever?
That is possibly the silliest thing written on this thread, and given one poster advocated punishing defence barristers for representing their clients, that's quite an achievement.
Is TheScreamingEagles the first ever Polly Toynbee fan? Ever?
That is possibly the silliest thing written on this thread, and given one poster advocated punishing defence barristers for representing their clients, that's quite an achievement.
Is tim a fan as well then?
I'm not a fan of Polly Toynbee and I never have been.
Imagine if Lee Rigby was your son / brother / dad.
Then see if you would still slate isam for suggesting torture.
I've had friends murdered, do I want the "freedom fighters" responsible tortured? No, because we are better than those scum. That what makes us different.
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
Well my point is that I think it would deter glory/attention seeking terrorists from killing innocent people.. that's why I think a custodial sentence is not enough
I don't even eat red meat because I don't enjoy eating innocent mammals, so I am hardly cold blooded (9% psychopath according to he C4 test) but I think if I watched the tape of Lee Rigby being killed and then someone presented me with Michael Adebalajo with his hands tied, and a baseball bat, Id be ok giving him a good hiding
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
Well my point is that I think it would deter glory/attention seeking terrorists from killing innocent people.. that's why I think a custodial sentence is not enough
I don't even eat red meat because I don't enjoy eating innocent mammals, so I am hardly cold blooded (9% psychopath according to he C4 test) but I think if I watched the tape of Lee Rigby being killed and then someone presented me with Michael Adebalajo with his hands tied, and a baseball bat, Id be ok giving him a good hiding
You may not eat meat, buy you're stupid enough to believe that C4 psychopath test. ;-)
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
BUT WE TORTURE PEOPLE EVERY DAY, IN BRITAIN, BY LOCKING THEM IN TINY CONCRETE TOMBS, FOR 23 HOURS OUT OF 24
You can ignore this point as much as you like, but it is the case. You are merely objecting to certain kinds of icky torture. You are like a girl who will happily fellate, but draws the line at deep throating, then claims she is a nun.
Imprisonment/Punishment isn't synonymous with torture.
You should retract what you said about me cheering Jean de Menezes being shot
Imagine if Lee Rigby was your son / brother / dad.
Then see if you would still slate isam for suggesting torture.
I've had friends murdered, do I want the "freedom fighters" responsible tortured? No, because we are better than those scum. That what makes us different.
Killing / torturing a murderer isn't the same as doing so to an innocent person though
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
BUT WE TORTURE PEOPLE EVERY DAY, IN BRITAIN, BY LOCKING THEM IN TINY CONCRETE TOMBS, FOR 23 HOURS OUT OF 24
You can ignore this point as much as you like, but it is the case. You are merely objecting to certain kinds of icky torture. You are like a girl who will happily fellate, but draws the line at deep throating, then claims she is a nun.
Imprisonment/Punishment isn't synonymous with torture.
You should retract what you said about me cheering Jean de Menezes being shot
No, in the context I posted it, I stand by my comment.
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
BUT WE TORTURE PEOPLE EVERY DAY, IN BRITAIN, BY LOCKING THEM IN TINY CONCRETE TOMBS, FOR 23 HOURS OUT OF 24
You can ignore this point as much as you like, but it is the case. You are merely objecting to certain kinds of icky torture. You are like a girl who will happily fellate, but draws the line at deep throating, then claims she is a nun.
Imprisonment/Punishment isn't synonymous with torture.
You should retract what you said about me cheering Jean de Menezes being shot
No, in the context I posted it, I stand by my comment.
If somebody kills a person or people in broad daylight, doing so to maximise coverage, make a point and get publicity for their cause then I don't think a custodial sentence is enough and I think torture is an option... and in the case of Lee Rigby's killers I think it would be fitting
So it would be impossible for an innocent to be tortured, unless the state fit them up, which they could do now anyway
Let's assume that it discourages other would be terrorists, and that we don't torture any innocents. I guess the one area that hasn't been answered is the effect it has on the person doing the torturing.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
I don't even eat red meat because I don't enjoy eating innocent mammals, so I am hardly cold blooded (9% psychopath according to he C4 test) but I think if I watched the tape of Lee Rigby being killed and then someone presented me with Michael Adebalajo with his hands tied, and a baseball bat, Id be ok giving him a good hiding
I seriously doubt , no hope, you wouldn't be ok with it. Military's spend thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours training people to inflict violence and they still have significant numbers who won't pull the trigger or deliberately aim off.
@isam Quite apart from it being completely wrong to torture people, no matter what they have done, why do you want to imprison lawyers for doing their jobs?
It being wrong is your opinion, not a fact. I think it is wrong to torture almost anybody, except killers where there is no disputing their guilt. It would act as a deterrent for would be terrorists
Defending traitors should be a punishable offence
Even the most low life of scum is entitled to a defence.
The reasoning is recurring. How do you decide whether someone is a traitor if not at a trial? Innocent until proven guilty etc.
Comments
Which has led to accusations that I'm Islamophobic.
It's easy for us to say: torture him! But would you be able to sleep well the night you applied the electrodes? I mean, if I could tell myself I was getting valuable information that would save lives, that would be one thing. But otherwise? What about the fifth night you torture another human being? Do you not think that it would be seriously bad for your general mental state to physically cause pain, night after night after night?
I was mulling over one of your main points earlier. IANAL (and therefore am probably talking out of my posterior), but could it be that idiots like West, Smith, Rowley and the others you mention cannot get decent enough defence? They've done something stupid / silly / sick (delete according to preference) and are hardly cause celebres. I cannot see any Z-list celebrities queuing up to back them.
On the other hand, Choudary is, in his own sick way, a bit of a celebrity. He gets column inches and mentions on the TV and radio. He has supporters. Could it be that it is harder to prosecute him under the same laws as the others, simply because he has better and more expensive representation?
None of those cases should have ended in jail time for a first offence - or at least in the way they were described. But if you read about (say) Rowley, then you see it was for much more than just sending texts. Likewise, threatening to burn down anything is a little more serious that just being Islamaphobic - but even then it may not warrant jail time.
Which we need to win to keep the urn for 2.5 years. So anyone who won't be around in June 2015 shouldn't play on Boxing Day.
From The Times
Britain’s intelligence agencies and the former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw are to face a new investigation into the rendition and torture of terror suspects.....
.....Tomorrow Ken Clarke, will hand the task to a parliamentary committee. The move will be a blow to the intelligence agencies, which had hoped that the Government would say that there was no case for a new investigation.
Then see if you would still slate isam for suggesting torture.
So it comes down to mindless brutality really?
Think the future is bright with the likes of Stokes, at last we have a proper number six.
I don't even eat red meat because I don't enjoy eating innocent mammals, so I am hardly cold blooded (9% psychopath according to he C4 test) but I think if I watched the tape of Lee Rigby being killed and then someone presented me with Michael Adebalajo with his hands tied, and a baseball bat, Id be ok giving him a good hiding
Personality tests like the Big Five or the Keirsey/Myers-Briggs[sp] one can be pretty interesting.
Is it necessary for him to be tied and defenseless if you have the baseball bat?......just asking.
(edit for bad grammar/spelling)
YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Labour lead jumps back up to eight points:
CON 33%, LAB 41%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%
CON 33%, LAB 41%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%
Cross nover
Hoorar!!!
http://order-order.com/2013/12/17/hollibande-leaves-france-on-verge-of-triple-dip-recession/