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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » John Rentoul: The sacking of Rebecca Long-Bailey was a “Blairi

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    https://twitter.com/marketwarbles/status/1276970716559110144
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    Sadly you are a walking advert for the upside of all of this.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 597

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    In that case JK Rowling better watch out in case she's...oh wait...

    The Simpsons thing is particularly stupid and regressive. The whole point of voice acting is that the performer doesn't have to look anything like their character, hence the sixtysomething Nancy Cartwright can play a 10 year old boy and James Earl Jones can be Darth Vader. Taken to its logical end actors will be forbidden to use anything other than their own accent, which would be particularly bad news for Black British actors in Hollywood.

    In retrospect it started last year with the predominantly black cast of "The Lion King" remake on the grounds of it being set in Africa despite the fact Lions aren't people and the human concepts of skin colour/ethnicity simply aren't applicable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    Sadly you are a walking advert for the upside of all of this.
    As a humble painter of delicate portraits of salamanders, newts and axolotls, I hope to be the last to be Woked
    Get yourself to the front of the queue, my son, your need being clearly the greatest.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    https://twitter.com/marketwarbles/status/1276970716559110144
    People should no longer be allowed to imagine another perspective, however imperfectly, nor should actors, you know, act as though they are a character who is not like themselves.

    In all seriousness, it's one of those approaches that makes me genuinely angry. I find it hard to understand how someone might get to a position from a desire to confront racial issues (or other discriminatory issues) without seeing the flaws, see how disproportionate a reaction it is.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    https://twitter.com/marketwarbles/status/1276970716559110144
    How about people writing about historical or futuristic characters ?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up in.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    Half right. Last week it was the toppling of statues, yes. This week it was smashing up police cars and waving swords in policemans faces

    https://twitter.com/xaliyahpriv/status/1275994004430245890?s=21
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Scott_xP said:
    I know! Telling people what they want to hear, govt by opinion polls, incompetence, petty corruption, looking after themselves and a lack of honour. HTH.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    And next week the crisis will be white people must not buy brown cars and the writers thing will be forgotten and my mother will still be buying romantic fiction no matter who writes which character...

    Besides, it is always interesting to watch a bloke trying to write as a woman or a woman's viewpoint. Do you have any suggestions for such authors?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    Look her up. She appears to have a few self-published novels; it requires an exceptionally strong telescope to discern her place in the literary firmament.

    Utterly bonkers to read her tweeted opinions as representing some fundamental shift in the zeitgeist.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020
    dodrade said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    In that case JK Rowling better watch out in case she's...oh wait...

    The Simpsons thing is particularly stupid and regressive. The whole point of voice acting is that the performer doesn't have to look anything like their character, hence the sixtysomething Nancy Cartwright can play a 10 year old boy and James Earl Jones can be Darth Vader. Taken to its logical end actors will be forbidden to use anything other than their own accent, which would be particularly bad news for Black British actors in Hollywood.

    In retrospect it started last year with the predominantly black cast of "The Lion King" remake on the grounds of it being set in Africa despite the fact Lions aren't people and the human concepts of skin colour/ethnicity simply aren't applicable.
    It certainly did not start there, people have raised that kind of issue for a long time, but the actual problems of representation in the media are not addressed by an approach which makes adhering to a character bio more important than anything else (though if that was part of the Lion King reasoning it makes even less sense).

    People who should know better do it all the time - Samuel L Jackson initially criticised the casting of a black british actor for Get Out rather than a black american who would have a different, more relevant experience of the issues of the movie. A truly great actor apparently had difficulty with the concept of someone acting.

    WIth the recent moves if voice actors don't want to continue the roles anymore, fine, that's their choice, but I found the family guy example strange since he referred to having done the role as an honour. If they think it is wrong for a white guy to do it and so won't anymore, then I don't see how it was an honour, but rather a mistake they regret.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    People knew Boris was mecurial. There's a reason MPs did not initially back him. Certainly anyone expecting die hard rigid conservatism would have been fooling themselves.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    https://twitter.com/marketwarbles/status/1276970716559110144
    How about people writing about historical or futuristic characters ?

    Tolstoy will be banned next.

    The people expounding this view about authors have no understanding of art (in its widest sense).

    It is but a step to the State deciding who is allowed to write what.



  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    Look her up. She appears to have a few self-published novels; it requires an exceptionally strong telescope to discern her place in the literary firmament.

    Utterly bonkers to read her tweeted opinions as representing some fundamental shift in the zeitgeist.
    I didn't, but many people have raised similar points over many years, and whether it becomes the norm or not is irrelevant to it being demented.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    Sadly you are a walking advert for the upside of all of this.
    As a humble painter of delicate portraits of salamanders, newts and axolotls, I hope to be the last to be Woked
    Animal rights! Only newts should be allowed to portray their kind.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    I'd be interested what people are basing that on. People flocking to beaches cannot be that, since that would happen whenever lockdown ends, not as a result of it being early or not.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    Look her up. She appears to have a few self-published novels; it requires an exceptionally strong telescope to discern her place in the literary firmament.

    Utterly bonkers to read her tweeted opinions as representing some fundamental shift in the zeitgeist.
    I didn't, but many people have raised similar points over many years, and whether it becomes the norm or not is irrelevant to it being demented.
    OK. When Salman Rushdie expresses such views, then I’ll be worried. But frankly, to describe this woman as merely obscure is to vastly overstate her significance.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    Sadly you are a walking advert for the upside of all of this.
    As a humble painter of delicate portraits of salamanders, newts and axolotls, I hope to be the last to be Woked
    Animal rights! Only newts should be allowed to portray their kind.
    Increasingly animals will only be CGI in any case.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    People knew Boris was mecurial. There's a reason MPs did not initially back him. Certainly anyone expecting die hard rigid conservatism would have been fooling themselves.
    Boris? How the heck did a conversation about politics get into a PB thread?

    Weird...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    No, I don't think it was planned by Starmer. His position in the party is not yet secure enough for that. I think that Starmer was simply pushed into a corner by Long-Bailey when she refused to withdraw the tweet and Starmer then took the only course that would have ensured that his authority remained intact. He may well have wanted to be shot of her some time further down the road, but now was not the time.

    Starmer has a precarious majority on the NEC but to consolidate that he will need to win a key vote on the use of STV to elect constituency representatives that is coming up next month. If he loses that vote, there is still the possibility that the far left could pick up all 9 NEC CLP representatives ratherthan the 7 they have now, in which case Starmer will lose his majority. If he wins, his majority on the NEC will be secure. So if there was any planning in the fact that this came to a head now, it is probably came from Long-Bailey and McDonnell, who judged that the time to try and provoke a reaction was now, ahead of that key NEC meeting.

    On the other hand, I think the cock-up theory is more plausible. Long-Bailey habitually felt the instinctive need to continue to snipe at the new leadership, misjudged the likely reaction to retweeting and endorsing such a divisive article and the controversy that would ensue, and then decided that it was better to become a martyr of the far left than to back down herself.

    I don't think it was planned by Starmer either those that think this was some master plan and he promoted her to the shadow cabnet in the hope of sacking her are giving him far too much credit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    Look her up. She appears to have a few self-published novels; it requires an exceptionally strong telescope to discern her place in the literary firmament.

    Utterly bonkers to read her tweeted opinions as representing some fundamental shift in the zeitgeist.
    I didn't, but many people have raised similar points over many years, and whether it becomes the norm or not is irrelevant to it being demented.
    OK. When Salman Rushdie expresses such views, then I’ll be worried. But frankly, to describe this woman as merely obscure is to vastly overstate her significance.
    What's the relevance? I'm critical of the idea, not the woman. I need not wait for an idea to be mainstream to criticise it. And while people not being allowed to write characters who are not of their race is hardly mainstream yet, actors taking on roles which are deemed to be required of a certain race, even animated ones, is more mainstream, when unless the nationality or race is central to the character it should not be a big deal (though underrepresentation of some groups remains an issue).
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I'd be interested what people are basing that on. People flocking to beaches cannot be that, since that would happen whenever lockdown ends, not as a result of it being early or not.
    In my family unit, the images of beaches have certainly changed minds.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Identity crisis is a telling phrase possibly unknown to the author, given the tories' transatlantic descent into rightwing identity politics.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Con are polling higher in seats they lost? Something doesn’t sound reported quite right here...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    alex_ said:

    Con are polling higher in seats they lost? Something doesn’t sound reported quite right here...
    I think “won” means “gained”, not won.
  • alex_ said:

    Con are polling higher in seats they lost? Something doesn’t sound reported quite right here...
    No he means seats the Tories won from Labour in 2019, i.e. former Labour seats, those that Labour needs to win back.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    alex_ said:

    Con are polling higher in seats they lost? Something doesn’t sound reported quite right here...
    It will mean seats they won last time that they did not win the time before.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    And how big is that sample and was it properly weighted ?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Say it like it is, Bastani is a knob!
    He is indeed - but on this he had a point. It was the decision of Acting Labour Leader - Harriet Harman - to abstain on Osborne's Welfare policy changes announced post-2015 election which effectively gifted Corbyn the momentum he gathered in that year's Leadership Election campaign. The other three contenders - Burnham, Cooper and Kendall - were bound by Shadow Cabinet collective responsibility and felt obliged to go along with Harman's decision. Corbyn as a backbencher was free to oppose it and benefitted massively from the resulting uproar within party ranks. It proplled him to the leadership - and in my mind the blame for that has to be firmly pinned on Harman rather than Margaret Beckett et all who simply nominated him.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    It seems they want a kind of cultural apartheid.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Up to a point. The election is four years away, Johnson won't necessarily be Prime Minister at that point, and Starmer is a blank canvas right now, onto which potential supporters can project an image of their choosing. All he's had to do is look serious and not blunder across the political landscape like Corbyn, setting off elephant traps and landmines every twenty yards.

    Once the man is obliged to draft and sell a manifesto, which might actually upset some people outside of the hard left of his own party, then we'll see whether the approval numbers hold up.
    If the election takes place on 2nd May 2024 - as presently stipulated by the FTPA - Dissolution would occur 3 years and 9 months from now at the end of March 2024.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    edited June 2020

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Jane Austen never once has a scene in which men are interacting or speaking with each other in the absence of ladies, it being a form of activity and discourse of which she knew nothing. Dickens does it, mutatis mutandis, but it doesn't work. Shakespeare of course can do it, but he can do everything. And Trollope can do women just with women too.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    geoffw said:

    It seems they want a kind of cultural apartheid.

    Think of it as a job creation scheme. Instead of one guy digging a hole then another guy filling it in instead they can have one person to write each role in the book....want a character thats half eskimo half bantu disabled taxi driver then better get advertising for one to write the role
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited June 2020
    One interesting aside about Youtube is that it cut out the middleman - the publisher. People could self publish on YT without a film company or distributor.

    Now, most stuff on YT is dreck, but some of it is very, very good and in some areas YT is watched more than mainstream Broadcasters.

    Extrapolating from there...

    If Book Publishers continue to restrict writers' freedom, how long will it be until authors just start self publishing on Amazon and relying on social media to do their marketing?

    Maybe what will go extinct is not the novel, but the publisher?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    And how big is that sample and was it properly weighted ?
    It seems to be an unweighted sample of ... 118.

    There was a time when Mike got upset when people used subsamples.

    Want to see another ridiculous subsample ?

    Labour has only a 4% lead among city constituencies.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604

    Polls essentially show no movement in the last week

    EMA
    Tory lead 6.3% (-0.2%)
    Tory maj 24 (-5)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2020

    One interesting aside about Youtube is that it cut out the middleman - the publisher. People could self publish on YT without a film company or distributor.

    Now, most stuff on YT is dreck, but some of it is very, very good and in some areas YT is watched more than mainstream Broadcasters.

    Extrapolating from there...

    If Book Publishers continue to restrict writers' freedom, how long will it be until authors just start self publishing on Amazon and relying on social media to do their marketing?

    Maybe what will go extinct is not the novel, but the publisher?

    People do do that now. Amazon's cut is outrageous.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    alex_ said:

    Con are polling higher in seats they lost? Something doesn’t sound reported quite right here...
    It must mean 'Tory seats gained from Labour'.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Ha it looks like that Michael Scott meme
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2020
    alex_ said:

    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?

    Are you commenting on Ben Kingsley playing the leading role. Son of Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555

    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    Sadly you are a walking advert for the upside of all of this.
    As a humble painter of delicate portraits of salamanders, newts and axolotls, I hope to be the last to be Woked
    Animal rights! Only newts should be allowed to portray their kind.
    PG Wodehouse discusses newts, but that just proves he's a fascist.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    edited June 2020

    And how big is that sample and was it properly weighted ?
    It seems to be an unweighted sample of ... 118.

    There was a time when Mike got upset when people used subsamples.

    Want to see another ridiculous subsample ?

    Labour has only a 4% lead among city constituencies.
    .. and "196 people are talking about this".
    I'm surprised Opinium bothered.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    High ranking universities are eating themselves all over the western world.

    I've attended both Newcastle University (Russell Group) and Northumbria University (ex poly) and the poly was by far the most focused on actual learning and teaching. The difference is stark.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    What did Wilson do? :o
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Alistair said:

    One interesting aside about Youtube is that it cut out the middleman - the publisher. People could self publish on YT without a film company or distributor.

    Now, most stuff on YT is dreck, but some of it is very, very good and in some areas YT is watched more than mainstream Broadcasters.

    Extrapolating from there...

    If Book Publishers continue to restrict writers' freedom, how long will it be until authors just start self publishing on Amazon and relying on social media to do their marketing?

    Maybe what will go extinct is not the novel, but the publisher?

    People do do that now. Amazon's cut is outrageous.
    If your publisher wont publish you because you were the wrong colour when you wrote the book amazon's cut is moot....better a 70% of something than 100% of nothing
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    RobD said:

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    What did Wilson do? :o
    Rabid racist apparently.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Alistair said:

    One interesting aside about Youtube is that it cut out the middleman - the publisher. People could self publish on YT without a film company or distributor.

    Now, most stuff on YT is dreck, but some of it is very, very good and in some areas YT is watched more than mainstream Broadcasters.

    Extrapolating from there...

    If Book Publishers continue to restrict writers' freedom, how long will it be until authors just start self publishing on Amazon and relying on social media to do their marketing?

    Maybe what will go extinct is not the novel, but the publisher?

    People do do that now. Amazon's cut is outrageous.
    Really? I cannot say I am surprised. I am not an author, but I am curious enough to ask what their cut is...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    High ranking universities are eating themselves all over the western world.

    I've attended both Newcastle University (Russell Group) and Northumbria University (ex poly) and the poly was by far the most focused on actual learning and teaching. The difference is stark.
    The polys should never have been turned into universities.

    (Ducks for cover)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    Alistair said:

    alex_ said:

    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?

    Are you commenting on Ben Kingsley playing the leading role. Son of Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji?
    You have to get to the root of the pernicious western canon. How can Homer possibly be allowed to portray Trojans? It starts all wrong and gets worse. Before you know where you are Chinua Achebe is writing about white people. To the barricades quick.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    Ho ho. What a card.
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    People dont see what is going on. They equate wokeism with what until recently was liberalism (freedom, equality etc). It is actually something that benefits a few people (an aggrieved revolutionary elite), and is less good for everyone else because we can now get cancelled at will, have no freedom of speech, our history is getting trashed and rewritten, etc.

    This feels a bit like Brexit. People were seduced in to voting for it by visions of restored sovereignty and funding for the NHS, not the chaos it has become.

    Fortunately or not, dependent on your perspective, the jokes going to be on the woke (if you excuse the terrible pun). 80 seat majority conservative government, 4 + years left to run. They can set up a process which claims to be about addressing racial and historic grievances; but ends up reversing the 2 decades of woke legislation which has fuelled the current mess. And all in the name of equality and anti racism!

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    What did Wilson do? :o
    Rabid racist apparently.
    Mount Rushmore's days are numbered.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Pagan2 said:

    geoffw said:

    It seems they want a kind of cultural apartheid.

    Think of it as a job creation scheme. Instead of one guy digging a hole then another guy filling it in instead they can have one person to write each role in the book....want a character thats half eskimo half bantu disabled taxi driver then better get advertising for one to write the role
    Sydney's Comet....

    Probably unreadable these days :open_mouth:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    High ranking universities are eating themselves all over the western world.

    I've attended both Newcastle University (Russell Group) and Northumbria University (ex poly) and the poly was by far the most focused on actual learning and teaching. The difference is stark.
    The polys should never have been turned into universities.

    (Ducks for cover)
    Why? It's only a name at the end of the day. It's simply an institution for higher education.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    Indeed. And the concept of the individual reader is itself classist, ableist, and discriminatory.

    What about people who can't afford books, and can't get to a library? And what of the people who don't have a quiet room in which to read? And, of course, what about illiterate people, why should they be excluded?

    In future, reading will be done in enormous government reading halls, into which we will quietly file, and sit, in our masks, 2 metres apart. Then a Person of Many Colours will read out the approved text, authored by the Official Writing Committee, and at the end we will mutely signal our appreciation by doing jazz hands, because clapping is not fair on the deaf.

    Then we will file out again. One by one.
    Any chance of an end to this stream of utter drivel?

    It's like being trapped in a lift with Jimmy Tarbuck.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    I agree, so why on earth do you keep putting his tweets on here?
    Quite. It's tedious.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    RobD said:

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    What did Wilson do? :o
    There's Spoons in Carlisle called the Woodrow Wilson.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    alex_ said:

    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?

    Gandhi was SUCH a RACIST!

    I mean, fancy leading 400 million NON-WHITE people to Independence in 1947!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    https://twitter.com/marketwarbles/status/1276970716559110144
    How about people writing about historical or futuristic characters ?
    I write ghost stories. Maybe I ought to try being dead before insulting the "alternatively corporeal".
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    algarkirk said:

    Alistair said:

    alex_ said:

    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?

    Are you commenting on Ben Kingsley playing the leading role. Son of Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji?
    You have to get to the root of the pernicious western canon. How can Homer possibly be allowed to portray Trojans? It starts all wrong and gets worse. Before you know where you are Chinua Achebe is writing about white people. To the barricades quick.

    To be fair, The Iliad has a discernible bias in favour of the Greeks. Whereas Virgil gives them a very bad press.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    This is but one poll , but for what it is worth I am sure Labour will be pretty content with it. The fieldwork is just a little later than this week's other polls and may have picked up some initial reaction to the RLB sacking.More significant is that Labour appears to be hanging on to the gains it made five weeks ago in the wake of the Cummings incident.I rather disagree with Mike about Labour 'breaking through'. A poll rating of 39% is pretty good compared to the 30% and lower being recorded by the party prior to Starmer's election. It is well above the 33% obtained by Corbyn last December - and indeed the 36% won by Blair in 2005.For the moment, the Labour is outperforming where the Tories were in the Parliaments of 2001 and 1997 - and its own ratings at the same stage of the Parliaments of 1987 and 1983. It is also stronger than Heath and Gaitskell were enjoying at the same point in the 1966 and 1959 Parliaments.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson’s Name From School

    NYTimes

    What did Wilson do? :o
    There's Spoons in Carlisle called the Woodrow Wilson.
    For now.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?

    Gandhi was SUCH a RACIST!

    I mean, fancy leading 400 million NON-WHITE people to Independence in 1947!
    It was a joke.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020
    CatMan said:

    MaxPB said:

    This is definitely revenge of the Blairites after 13 years of drift since Brown took over.

    Was Brown really that different to Blair? He went on record saying he would have done everything Blair did regarding Iraq.
    Very different personality but barely a cigarette paper between them politically. Tony a touch more in favour of free markets, EU integration and western imperialism.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Have they got the press-ups on video?

    Johnson was always set to bankrupt the country.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    edited June 2020

    alex_ said:

    I suppose it will be OK to continue showing Gandhi on TV - because white people can play the part of racists?

    Gandhi was SUCH a RACIST!

    I mean, fancy leading 400 million NON-WHITE people to Independence in 1947!
    Doesn't mean he wasn't a racist. Just go look at his views on Blacks in South Africa. Really not pleasant at all. Doesn't mean he didn't do great things later in life but that is no excuse for his attitudes when younger.

    Edit: Of course there is a perfectly valid excuse which is his views were the same as the predominant views of the time. They were wrong in our eyes but one of the big issues with the whole woke movement for historical reappraisal is it does judge the views of other times against our own.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    ProjectLincoln have really got Trump's number...

    https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1276983931942965250
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Lock down in Leicester?

    @Foxy was warning us of the situation there a week or so ago.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    Quite possibly.

    There is definitely a move to ensure white writers do not feature leading BAME characters.

    https://twitter.com/AlishaEHillam/status/1274713201981128704?s=20


    1,000 Likes for that tweet.

    It will probably end up with entirely white novels/sitcoms/movies about white middle class people, which people will call racist for being so white.

    Alternatively, as Lionel Shriver has suggested, it will end with the only permitted form of writing being memoir, as that is your story and only you can tell it. Once.
    I usually hedge my language, but the approach suggested by that tweet is utterly demented.
    If the rule is that you're allowed to write only what you are, I presume that author's works are populated solely by characters so incredibly dense that light bends around them...
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    Indeed. And the concept of the individual reader is itself classist, ableist, and discriminatory.

    What about people who can't afford books, and can't get to a library? And what of the people who don't have a quiet room in which to read? And, of course, what about illiterate people, why should they be excluded?

    In future, reading will be done in enormous government reading halls, into which we will quietly file, and sit, in our masks, 2 metres apart. Then a Person of Many Colours will read out the approved text, authored by the Official Writing Committee, and at the end we will mutely signal our appreciation by doing jazz hands, because clapping is not fair on the deaf.

    Then we will file out again. One by one.
    Any chance of an end to this stream of utter drivel?

    It's like being trapped in a lift with Jimmy Tarbuck.
    I thought we had already established that this was the only Publisher left who does not censor LadyG's books....?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    Labour plunges further into the Culture War

    https://twitter.com/make_trouble/status/1276985244164526081?s=20

    I know little about Lloyd Russell-Moyle, but everything I've ever read about him has involved him acting like a complete berk.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    Labour plunges further into the Culture War

    https://twitter.com/make_trouble/status/1276985244164526081?s=20

    I notice that he didn't say she exploited her sex attack ordeal.
  • Blair was the best PM this century
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    Labour plunges further into the Culture War

    https://twitter.com/make_trouble/status/1276985244164526081?s=20

    Both sides are engaged. Transgender issues are becoming a fairly unrepresentative totem, like Blue Passports.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Lock down in Leicester?

    @Foxy was warning us of the situation there a week or so ago.
    Yep. I see Samworth Bros get named as a focus too. Food production again...

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    Indeed. And the concept of the individual reader is itself classist, ableist, and discriminatory.

    What about people who can't afford books, and can't get to a library? And what of the people who don't have a quiet room in which to read? And, of course, what about illiterate people, why should they be excluded?

    In future, reading will be done in enormous government reading halls, into which we will quietly file, and sit, in our masks, 2 metres apart. Then a Person of Many Colours will read out the approved text, authored by the Official Writing Committee, and at the end we will mutely signal our appreciation by doing jazz hands, because clapping is not fair on the deaf.

    Then we will file out again. One by one.
    Any chance of an end to this stream of utter drivel?

    It's like being trapped in a lift with Jimmy Tarbuck.
    Amazingly, I was once trapped in a lift..... with Jimmy Tarbuck.

    Yes.
    My deepest sympathies.

    But look, I sense a touch of corona complacency returning on here - so I think you have a DUTY to get back full time on that.

    This other stuff helps nobody. People read it and get the wrong idea. It is pandering to the worst aspects of human nature rather than seeking to bring out the best of it.
  • Ah so Johnson isn't unfit or unhealthy, he's just a terrible PM. Thanks MoS
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    Sean is way ahead of his time, I know realise.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Blair was the best PM this century

    I disagree . To date he remains the only British PM of this century who merits the label of 'war criminal'.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    You'll want to watch this one to the end. Outstandingly bonkers.

    https://twitter.com/peterswellman/status/1276883249369882625
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    LadyG said:

    whunter said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    Mulling over the logic behind characters in cartoons having to be voiced by an actor of the ethnicity portrayed, isn't it more 'problematic' that the words spoken are written by someone of different ethnicity?

    And will Bart have to be voiced by a male actor now, along with Nelson, Ralph, Todd etc?

    The same debate is going on in drama, art, publishing - eg the idea is forming that white writers should only write white characters, Asians can do Asians, gays can do gays.

    It is utterly toxic. Goodbye the new Othello
    Goodbye female authors writing about male characters next?
    All books should be written by diverse committees. The concept of a single author is an abuse of power and reflects assumptions about cultural hegemony in society.
    And in the 25th Century, the history teacher said ".... and their civilisation was toppled when a cartoon series employed a few extra actors. The shock of this was so immense that it crushed their ability to cope..."

    Not!

    Look - there are always people crying for stupid stuff like books to be written by committees and so on. Most people will simply ignore them and they will fade into the sort of irrelevance that that sort of person always winds up.

    Last week, it was the toppling of statues that was going to end western civilisation. This week the streets seem free of pieces of public sclupture littering gutters and harbours and most people have forgotten it and moved on.

    If you really want to worry about the end of civilisation, worry about Eadric's latest story that the Chinese have somehow made the virus worse.
    You simply don't understand. This censorship by Wokeism isn't some fevered dream of lunatic rightwing poets, it is already happening

    Books are being cancelled, authors are self-limiting, publishers are employing "sensitivity readers" - to make sure books are Wokeishly correct

    https://bookmachine.org/2019/01/15/sensitivity-reading-what-you-need-to-know-and-why-it-matters/


    And some genres are now riven with infighting on this issue: authors are getting abuse, suffering boycotts, receiving death threats

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/torn-apart-the-vicious-war-over-young-adult-books

    This isn't hyperbole. This is real
    People dont see what is going on. They equate wokeism with what until recently was liberalism (freedom, equality etc). It is actually something that benefits a few people (an aggrieved revolutionary elite), and is less good for everyone else because we can now get cancelled at will, have no freedom of speech, our history is getting trashed and rewritten, etc.

    This feels a bit like Brexit. People were seduced in to voting for it by visions of restored sovereignty and funding for the NHS, not the chaos it has become.

    Fortunately or not, dependent on your perspective, the jokes going to be on the woke (if you excuse the terrible pun). 80 seat majority conservative government, 4 + years left to run. They can set up a process which claims to be about addressing racial and historic grievances; but ends up reversing the 2 decades of woke legislation which has fuelled the current mess. And all in the name of equality and anti racism!

    It's a pleasant fantasy to think a rather spineless British Tory government will be able to reverse 40 years of Wokeist progress through academe, media, law, schools, business, charity, arts.

    Not going to happen.

    I read a tweet the other day which rather summed it up, if I remember correctly it said:

    "Culture war is the wrong description. The culture was is over, and the Left won. Now they are just going around shooting the survivors."

    The pendulum WILL swing, but my, it is taking a while and by the time it happens much damage will have been done (along with the original good things done, of course: racial equality, gay rights, and so on)
    I think they will. They've already quietly dropped the gender recognition stuff. The woke element of the conservative party were largely purged last year in the Brexit wars. They have a free run at it.

    Secondly, you are overestimating the impact of all this. It passes most people by. From a tactical perspective you've got to let the woke go to mad extremes (defacing churchill etc) before you have the political ability to tackle them. Thats what is happening now.

    It is all about not interrupting the enemy while it is making a mistake.

    I think that is the calculation.

  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377

    Ah so Johnson isn't unfit or unhealthy, he's just a terrible PM. Thanks MoS

    Yes but at least he did not appoint Long-Bailey or Russell-Moyle to his top team and have to sack them weeks later.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I see father ted creator has got the twitter ban hammer treatment over this issue.
This discussion has been closed.