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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,185

    No, Letwin is out on his own as a disaster area.

    Now there are some pretty unimpressive people in the cabinet but the reality is politics is filled with some pretty unimpressive people.

    And underlying it is that we've created a political system where spouting crap on twatter is more important that proper preparation and attention to detail.

    For those lamenting the politicians of yesteryear, the likes of Attlee and Thatcher would never get anywhere in the modern political world.
    Public Health England is a Lansley creation iirc.

    That's worked out well.

    He has to be in the top ten of worst Cabinet ministers of all time. Even his own boss hadn't a clue what the hell he was up to.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,086
    eek said:

    This cabinet includes Patel, Williamson and Raab (someone who didn't understand that Dover was so important that it has a backup dual carriageway).

    Anyone of them can give Letwin a run for worst cabinet minister and would easily win.
    Patel should not be grouped with Williamson and Raab. Whilst her pre cabinet appearances on QT etc were worrying, her actual performance as Home Secretary is very near the top of the Cabinet rankings. (Admittedly not difficult).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,369
    malcolmg said:

    How did they manage to live years ago I wonder. Cut your cloth accordingly , if you cannot afford it do not have children and farm them out to strangers. Build their life around what they can afford.
    This is a moronic comment. Let me explain my own situation and perhaps you can explain to me where we went wrong. We have three children. My wife and I both work. The children used to go to school five days a week. After school my wife would look after the children two days a week and we paid someone to look after them in our house the other three days. This was a situation that worked well for all concerned, was well within our budget, provided work and allowed us to make a large tax contribution. In short, we were behaving entirely responsibly.
    Now two of the children no longer go to school and we cannot employ somebody in our house and ensure social distancing rules are met. But we cannot give up our jobs without putting ourselves at financial risk. I suspect our tax payments also continue to be welcome. Meanwhile our youngest child is increasingly emotionally volatile as a result of the disruption to her life and schooling. So I'm not really in the mood to listen to some moronic internet troll opine on our irresponsibility as parents. You clearly know absolutely nothing about it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    IanB2 said:

    Compared to the UK, the US has five times the population, but

    Is that how dogs are treated north of the border, Malc?
    No idea what happens south of the border but a new industry in my part of Scotland over the last 5 years or so is professional dog walkers - they come and open your door and take your pooch out about the middle of the day when you are at work.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,086
    Scott_xP said:

    I think this will be a problem

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1272219281036640257

    In bookstores, they have to quarantine any book that someone touches

    That's OK if you are the one that touched it, but if you are the next customer, you can't look at that book for another 3 days.

    Why wouldn't you order it from Amazon?

    Has anyone else noticed (physical) books are no longer cheap at Amazon?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,369

    STimes was saying yesterday that Cummings has been focus group testing cultural war issues and slogans for months.

    Looks like they have decided that with the care homes disaster, the high excess deaths and the track and trace no one app, now is the time to start the war.
    Cummings is easily the most dangerous man to have worked in government in my lifetime. His only skill is in dividing people and lying.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,969

    Fair point, it's a good GOTV ad.

    It's not an ad designed to target floating voters/ undecided, I think.

    You need to be a bit more subtle and say Biden can give you what Trump can't for that.
    To me these adverts seem more focused on suppression of the vote than GOTV. They are designed to make moderate and sane Republicans think whether they can really vote for Trump. Its a legitimate question and one of the considerations is what is the other side offering (cf Corbyn here). If its a "nice" unthreatening man that senior Republicans quite like the incentive to get out and vote for Trump is reduced.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,301

    Fair point, it's a good GOTV ad.

    It's not an ad designed to target floating voters/ undecided, I think.

    You need to be a bit more subtle and say Biden can give you what Trump can't for that.
    But is it? If I was a reluctant (because I preferred someone more radical) Biden voter, seeing Republicans telling me to vote for him would only put me off.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,976
    Scott_xP said:

    I think this will be a problem

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1272219281036640257

    In bookstores, they have to quarantine any book that someone touches

    That's OK if you are the one that touched it, but if you are the next customer, you can't look at that book for another 3 days.

    Why wouldn't you order it from Amazon?

    How does Amazon put it in the box?

    I'm thinking that it has been wise to treat Oakeshott like a biohazard since long before Coronavirus.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,185

    This is a moronic comment. Let me explain my own situation and perhaps you can explain to me where we went wrong. We have three children. My wife and I both work. The children used to go to school five days a week. After school my wife would look after the children two days a week and we paid someone to look after them in our house the other three days. This was a situation that worked well for all concerned, was well within our budget, provided work and allowed us to make a large tax contribution. In short, we were behaving entirely responsibly.
    Now two of the children no longer go to school and we cannot employ somebody in our house and ensure social distancing rules are met. But we cannot give up our jobs without putting ourselves at financial risk. I suspect our tax payments also continue to be welcome. Meanwhile our youngest child is increasingly emotionally volatile as a result of the disruption to her life and schooling. So I'm not really in the mood to listen to some moronic internet troll opine on our irresponsibility as parents. You clearly know absolutely nothing about it.
    The school and virus policy has been a total disaster. It is beyond bonkers that they may not even be back in September.

    The damage this closure is causing is ridiculous compared to the actual risk.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,725

    Cummings is easily the most dangerous man to have worked in government in my lifetime. His only skill is in dividing people and lying.

    That's a high bar considering Alastair Fucking Campbell, but you may well be right.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,016

    This is a moronic comment. Let me explain my own situation and perhaps you can explain to me where we went wrong. We have three children. My wife and I both work. The children used to go to school five days a week. After school my wife would look after the children two days a week and we paid someone to look after them in our house the other three days. This was a situation that worked well for all concerned, was well within our budget, provided work and allowed us to make a large tax contribution. In short, we were behaving entirely responsibly.
    Now two of the children no longer go to school and we cannot employ somebody in our house and ensure social distancing rules are met. But we cannot give up our jobs without putting ourselves at financial risk. I suspect our tax payments also continue to be welcome. Meanwhile our youngest child is increasingly emotionally volatile as a result of the disruption to her life and schooling. So I'm not really in the mood to listen to some moronic internet troll opine on our irresponsibility as parents. You clearly know absolutely nothing about it.
    Only one moron here I am afraid, unable to have a civilised discussion. Think you should go have a lie down in a darkened corner instead of making a right show of yourself and being an ignoramus.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,976

    We'll in 7-10 days we'll have some idea.

    Although I really, really hope it does work.
    As do we all.

    The crisis has at least answered one question. Boris has wondered all his life whether he might be destined to become the next Churchill. At least his career isn't going to close with him still wondering.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,969

    Has anyone else noticed (physical) books are no longer cheap at Amazon?
    Its almost as if they are abusing a quasi monopoly position. Lucky that they are such nice, public spirited and community orientated people, isn't it?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    This pathetic whinging from Remainers just because the Cabinet isn't full of Remainers is getting tired and old now. No Cabinet is perfect but this Cabinet is as talented as any.

    Particular highlights, personally speaking, would be Sunak, Gove, Patel and Truss.

    Not to mention not including Leadsom, Fox or Davis.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,086
    IanB2 said:

    As do we all.

    The crisis has at least answered one question. Boris has wondered all his life whether he might be destined to become the next Churchill. At least his career isn't going to close with him still wondering.
    At least he got to be the next Orville.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,569

    This pathetic whinging from Remainers just because the Cabinet isn't full of Remainers is getting tired and old now. No Cabinet is perfect but this Cabinet is as talented as any.

    Particular highlights, personally speaking, would be Sunak, Gove, Patel and Truss.

    Not to mention not including Leadsom, Fox or Davis.
    If you think this is a cabinet of the most suitable and capable MPs, I have a bridge to sell you..
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,146

    David Lammy very good on R4 just now.

    Shaun Bailey otoh...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,969
    Scott_xP said:

    That's a high bar considering Alastair Fucking Campbell, but you may well be right.
    Don't think Cummings has got us to invade a middle eastern country yet. Early days, I suppose.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,146

    Will they ever come up with a vaccine to combat smug?
    If they do, I'm entirely confident I will not need it.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Scott_xP said:
    She's 28!

    Life's not fair sometimes, is it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,990

    If they do, I'm entirely confident I will not need it.
    I entirely agree. It may serve to help some posters immeasurably.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,852
    DavidL said:

    Its almost as if they are abusing a quasi monopoly position. Lucky that they are such nice, public spirited and community orientated people, isn't it?
    "Quasi monopoly" won't quite do. There is a free and active online market for books. Amazon are not the only seller. If people have a sense of them being the 'go to' place or the only place to look that may be because of their effectiveness as an operation.

    And 'price' as always is what you can command in the market place according to supply and demand. It remains the best competitive tool there is, along with competition.

    It isn't the job of Amazon to be public spirited, (though it would be nice if they were) any more than your local baker gets up at 4 am every day because he loves humanity. It's all in Adam Smith!

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,146
    Queues across the nation (that nation being England) for Primark before 9am. Primark!

    Fuxake.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Which is why the switch is idiotic. They should be trumpeting the re-opening as normality returning and evidence that the pandemic is on the slide. Instead, they have left the management of the biggest health crisis of the last 100 years in limbo whilst they rabbit on about lumps of rock raised to dead people who are mostly forgotten.
    Politicians' job is to trumpet about shop opening hours.
    Addressing a political issue which goes to the heart of equality, justice, what we are as a society and how we got that way, is playing politics.
    Sculptures are lumps of rock.
    History is bunk.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,976
    She had skin cancer at 19
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,146
    Scott_xP said:
    Jeezo, she's not had her troubles to seek.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,569

    Queues across the nation (that nation being England) for Primark before 9am. Primark!

    Fuxake.

    It's just about the only shop that people need to visit. Cheap clothes is something that a lot of parents need to replace after 3 months of growing..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,969
    algarkirk said:

    "Quasi monopoly" won't quite do. There is a free and active online market for books. Amazon are not the only seller. If people have a sense of them being the 'go to' place or the only place to look that may be because of their effectiveness as an operation.

    And 'price' as always is what you can command in the market place according to supply and demand. It remains the best competitive tool there is, along with competition.

    It isn't the job of Amazon to be public spirited, (though it would be nice if they were) any more than your local baker gets up at 4 am every day because he loves humanity. It's all in Adam Smith!

    That would be his observation that no group of businessmen ever get together without acting contrary to the public interest? You could be right.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,953
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504
    edited June 2020
    eek said:

    It's just about the only shop that people need to visit. Cheap clothes is something that a lot of parents need to replace after 3 months of growing..
    The shop near me that has a monopoly on school uniforms is charging customers £5 to enter and deducting that from any purchases made. I wonder how many others behaving like that?

    Obviously they won't do much trade in uniforms, but my sister was going to take her four year old to get new shoes, but was put off by that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,725
    DavidL said:

    Don't think Cummings has got us to invade a middle eastern country yet. Early days, I suppose.

    He launched a culture war that continues to rage, and is about to commit us to a trade war, in the middle of a Global pandemic.

    The scale of suffering is comparable.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,569
    edited June 2020
    algarkirk said:

    "Quasi monopoly" won't quite do. There is a free and active online market for books. Amazon are not the only seller. If people have a sense of them being the 'go to' place or the only place to look that may be because of their effectiveness as an operation.

    And 'price' as always is what you can command in the market place according to supply and demand. It remains the best competitive tool there is, along with competition.

    It isn't the job of Amazon to be public spirited, (though it would be nice if they were) any more than your local baker gets up at 4 am every day because he loves humanity. It's all in Adam Smith!

    Equally selling books cheaply doesn't make sense if distribution network issue means replacing stock is impossible and it increases the amount of work your warehouse staff need to do.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,086
    eek said:

    If you think this is a cabinet of the most suitable and capable MPs, I have a bridge to sell you..
    Why do so many on pb own bridges? They are clearly over supplied and not much use as every week someone is looking to sell them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,852
    Scott_xP said:
    If David Lammy thinks that the time for review, action tomorrow, commissions of enquiry, long grass and justifications for delay and is ever over when you are in government he is in for a terrible shock the next time Labour wins an election.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,400
    Hope Amy Callaghan makes a full and speedy recovery.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,725

    Why do so many on pb own bridges? They are clearly over supplied and not much use as every week someone is looking to sell them.

    None of us own them.

    We are merely selling them...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    If you think this is a cabinet of the most suitable and capable MPs, I have a bridge to sell you..
    I think as much as any ever is, it is yes.

    Certainly better than Theresa May's which was a Cabinet of whomever was left that she could cobble together that would be loyal to her.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,183
    DavidL said:

    Its almost as if they are abusing a quasi monopoly position. Lucky that they are such nice, public spirited and community orientated people, isn't it?
    DavidL said:

    Its almost as if they are abusing a quasi monopoly position. Lucky that they are such nice, public spirited and community orientated people, isn't it?
    Anecdotally, I think by far the problems for smaller bookshops came along before Amazon really took hold. The shop I worked in sold second-hand paperbacks at £2 each or 3 for a fiver, secondhand. The problem was supermarkets and discount remainder shops were selling new paperbacks at either that or not much more....
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    The markets are down. Almost no one is talking about this but it is EXTREMELY bad news. Second spike in China.

    No one should be talking about 2 metre rules, easing lockdown blah blah. We should all have an eye to what's happening right now in China.

    Sorry to sound like Eadric 3 months ago but we're in deep trouble again if this takes a hold.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-53046454

    Generally I don't think people expected big countries with land borders to be able to completely eliminate the rona, so we expect to have flare-ups here and there. If you can keep the rate at which it spreads reasonably low everywhere, then get it properly negative when you're in "emergency response" mode, you should still be able to operate a mostly-normal economy.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,725
    https://twitter.com/janinegibson/status/1272443374780534790

    As one of the articles at the weekend noted, this is all fine and good in sunny weather, but if we are still socially distant queuing in the pissing rain in November we will not be so sanguine
  • eekeek Posts: 29,569
    edited June 2020
    tlg86 said:

    The shop near me that has a monopoly on school uniforms is charging customers £5 to enter and deducting that from any purchases made. I wonder how many others behaving like that?

    Obviously they won't do much trade in uniforms, but my sister was going to take her four year old to get new shoes, but was put off by that.
    I seem to remember a bookshop doing that in Hawes which resulted in the whole town hounding the owner out of the town. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/17/yorkshire-dales-bookseller-from-hell-quits-his-shop-hawes-steve-bloom-bloomindales

    I can see why the shopkeeper thinks it's a good idea but it's going to do permanent long term harm to their business as your sister confirms.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Scott_xP said:

    He launched a culture war that continues to rage, and is about to commit us to a trade war, in the middle of a Global pandemic.

    The scale of suffering is comparable.
    Comparable to the hundreds of thousands of people killed in Iraq? Does anyone - even you - actually believe this nonsense?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    In the last 2 weeks Spain has reported a total of 9 deaths involving Covid-19.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    I think as much as any ever is, it is yes.

    Certainly better than Theresa May's which was a Cabinet of whomever was left that she could cobble together that would be loyal to her.
    You certainly set a low standard for Cabinet :D:D:D

    Surely we should expect (deserve??) a better standard than this?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,569

    In the last 2 weeks Spain has reported a total of 9 deaths involving Covid-19.

    And Spain has a very different criteria for what is a death involving Covid-19 than we do.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,953
    edited June 2020
    Seeing shops opening today and the safe guarding steps they have taken is a great tribute to the 'can do' spirit and is exactly what is needed to start a recovery for our devastated economy

    To those naysayers who can only see negatives and crack cheap jokes I would say how on earth do you think the UK can ever rise out of this unless we actively encourage all moves to free us from lockdown
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,547
    edited June 2020
    DavidL said:

    Don't think Cummings has got us to invade a middle eastern country yet. Early days, I suppose.
    Imagine Cummings' version of the Dodgy Dossier: "The SW1 blob has ignored the risk of weapons of mass destruction for too long, but machine learning algorithms from Data Inc of Palo Alto show that we are just 44 minutes and 30 seconds away from disaster. The new AI-targetted bombs from MilitaryIndustrialComplex.com puts anything the MoD could come up with to shame, and we must give them all our money at once."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,146
    eek said:

    It's just about the only shop that people need to visit. Cheap clothes is something that a lot of parents need to replace after 3 months of growing..
    No doubt, but I'm unclear what level of need requires queuing at 8.30am on a Monday morning. Do they think they're going to run out?

    Afaics even in Scotand, the supermarkets have been selling cheap clothing for the duration.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,146
    edited June 2020
    Duplicate
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    algarkirk said:

    If David Lammy thinks that the time for review, action tomorrow, commissions of enquiry, long grass and justifications for delay and is ever over when you are in government he is in for a terrible shock the next time Labour wins an election.
    He makes perfectly valid points though...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    You certainly set a low standard for Cabinet :D:D:D

    Surely we should expect (deserve??) a better standard than this?
    Why? Its better than May's was. Better than Brown's was. Why would you expect better?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,725

    You certainly set a low standard for Cabinet

    A claim that may's cabinet was worse is ironic, given that it included BoZo, Davis and Raab, all of whom proved how inept they were and would continue to be
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,239

    This pathetic whinging from Remainers just because the Cabinet isn't full of Remainers is getting tired and old now. No Cabinet is perfect but this Cabinet is as talented as any.

    Particular highlights, personally speaking, would be Sunak, Gove, Patel and Truss.

    Not to mention not including Leadsom, Fox or Davis.
    What the fuck is wrong with the Fireplace Salesman? Why is he omitted from your celestial roll of honour?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,400
    Mr. Mortimer, not just that, but charity shops can make things difficult for second hand bookshops.

    I still have one or two old second hand books I bought during childhood holidays in the UK (given most of them away). Have fond memories of idly perusing the musty shelves and finding fantasy stories or Doctor Who books.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    A claim that may's cabinet was worse is ironic, given that it included BoZo, Davis and Raab, all of whom proved how inept they were and would continue to be
    Why is Davis's inclusion ironic when I named his absence from Boris's as a positive?

    And I referred to May's Cabinet by the end when she was struggling to find anyone who'd be loyal to her. The fact she had to replace so many Cabinet ministers as they quit her Cabinet says it all, she was really dredging the depths to find people by the end.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,953
    Scott_xP said:

    He launched a culture war that continues to rage, and is about to commit us to a trade war, in the middle of a Global pandemic.

    The scale of suffering is comparable.
    Your scale of suffering is on display here every day and despite all your tweets not one of them has changed minds
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,446

    Public Health England is a Lansley creation iirc.

    That's worked out well.

    He has to be in the top ten of worst Cabinet ministers of all time. Even his own boss hadn't a clue what the hell he was up to.
    Lansley, Letwin, Fox, Grayling, IDS and Warsi were in the same cabinet.

    Plus Osborne - the shadow Chancellor who failed to forecast a recession which happened.

    This is the level of talent whose absence are now supposed to lament.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Dura_Ace said:

    What the fuck is wrong with the Fireplace Salesman? Why is he omitted from your celestial roll of honour?
    Raab is dull as dishwater and I've never seen anything noteworthy from him.

    Quiet and competent is a good thing, that's why Truss was included for me. She doesn't sparkle but is one of the best Cabinet performers of the last decade for me.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,239
    DavidL said:

    Don't think Cummings has got us to invade a middle eastern country yet. Early days, I suppose.
    The RAF were using £800k Storm Shadows to blow up Hi-Luxes in Iraq last month. In 6 weeks time we can celebrate 30 years of continuous combat operations in Iraq by British forces. Another 30 and I reckon we'll crack it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,953

    No doubt, but I'm unclear what level of need requires queuing at 8.30am on a Monday morning. Do they think they're going to run out?

    Afaics even in Scotand, the supermarkets have been selling cheap clothing for the duration.
    You really do not understand people do you

    Though I hate shopping so it does not affect me
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,954

    Comparable to the hundreds of thousands of people killed in Iraq? Does anyone - even you - actually believe this nonsense?
    What did you make of IDS's support for the invasion at the time, out of interest?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    IshmaelZ said:

    Politicians' job is to trumpet about shop opening hours.
    Addressing a political issue which goes to the heart of equality, justice, what we are as a society and how we got that way, is playing politics.
    Sculptures are lumps of rock.
    History is bunk.
    As far as I am concerned, Boris can continue messing up everything he touches. I am more than happy to watch this over-promoted berk take the ERG / UKIP-lite version of the Tory party into electoral oblivion.

    The sad thing is that his policies (or lack thereof) lead to people dying, a destroyed economy and ruined lives for many.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,852
    DavidL said:

    That would be his observation that no group of businessmen ever get together without acting contrary to the public interest? You could be right.
    His big point is that the baker does not have to be altruistic or love humanity, he just has to want to make a living legally to work his socks off without being compelled to. The conditions for this are stuff like a working infrastructure of ports and roads, a justice system that works, and free and fair conditions for competition. The capacity to make a living gets people to work. Competition prevents price going out of control.

    Works for bread. But the system fails for banks, schools, and a number of other things.

    The proper criticism of Amazon is that it seems to have massive tax advantages. But governments fix those systems not firms.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    No doubt, but I'm unclear what level of need requires queuing at 8.30am on a Monday morning. Do they think they're going to run out?

    Afaics even in Scotand, the supermarkets have been selling cheap clothing for the duration.
    It depends how big of a supermarket you have. My local supermarket doesn't, there is a giant ASDA with a George at the other end of town but I've only been there the once during the pandemic and it too entailed a massive queue to get in.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,536
    DavidL said:

    We've talked about this a few times. What it boils down to is that Boris, a very successful and sought after after dinner speaker, had some standard material that he churned out pretty regularly and Vine happened to catch twice. Well, quelle surprise.
    Er, no. Everyone knows that after-dinner speakers re-use material - that bit is hardly surprising. The point of Vine’s anecdote is how hard Johnson worked to maintain the illusion of "I just got here & now I’m making the great off the cuff speech, aren’t I amazing?" to absolutely everyone involved.

    Every part of the "Boris" persona is an act, carefully honed over the years: the fluffy hair (which someone floofs for him before he goes on camera), the "off-the-cuff" witticisms, all of it.

    That’s the point.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,086

    This pathetic whinging from Remainers just because the Cabinet isn't full of Remainers is getting tired and old now. No Cabinet is perfect but this Cabinet is as talented as any.

    Particular highlights, personally speaking, would be Sunak, Gove, Patel and Truss.

    Not to mention not including Leadsom, Fox or Davis.
    If this were true why do Sunak and Patel get good ratings from pragmatic remainers on here? I think Barclay and Hancock are all right too - although Hancock has been shafted by being given responsibility for nearly everything thru the crisis with little support.

    There just is a lot of dross. Bring in some fresh MPs we havent heard of, dont mind if they are leave or remain, they are very likely better than Williamson, Raab, JRM, Jenrick, Sharma, Dowden.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    eek said:

    And Spain has a very different criteria for what is a death involving Covid-19 than we do.
    You can look at other measures to monitor Spain’s progress
    Diagnosticados últimas 24 horas: 48 Diagnosticados últimos 7 días: 1737 Diagnosticados últimos 14 días: 4434 Incidencia Acumulada (IA): 9,43 Número reproductivo básico (Rt): 0,9
    Fallecidos:27.136
    Fallecidos últimos 7 días: 26
    Recuperados:18-05-2020150.376
    Hospitalizados: #REF! Hospitalizados últimos 7 días: 110 UCI: 11.619 UCI últimos 7 días: 5

    The real test comes next Monday when the borders reopen. Social distancing and other safety measures remain in place but obviously as people head for the coast it increases the risks of a second wave. Face masks required indoors, public transport and busy streets etc, strict rules for the beach. The relaxation to date does not appear to have caused an increase in cases but I will be avoiding those places that the tourists frequent for a while. I wonder when they will let the Brits in?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    Seeing shops opening today and the safe guarding steps they have taken is a great tribute to the 'can do' spirit and is exactly what is needed to start a recovery for our devastated economy

    To those naysayers who can only see negatives and crack cheap jokes I would say how on earth do you think the UK can ever rise out of this unless we actively encourage all moves to free us from lockdown

    You are off-script - that is last week's message.

    You are supposed to be on BLM this week.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    In the last 2 weeks Spain has reported a total of 9 deaths involving Covid-19.

    Except Madrid reported 11, witht he total at least 25:

    https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-06-13/spains-health-ministry-reports-25-coronavirus-deaths-in-last-week-and-155-infections-in-24-hours.html

    PB would be going apeshit if the gov't pulled this kind of stunt.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    What did you make of IDS's support for the invasion at the time, out of interest?
    He was the same fucking idiot he's always been. A competent leader would have strung Labour along, then concluded with a devastating speech on the day of the vote: 'The Government has failed to convince the House that invading Iraq will be worth one ounce of British blood or treasure, let alone the civilian deaths that would follow in its wake. The Conservative Party will therefore vote against the motion, and any MP who rebels will be immediately expelled from the party'.

    Et voila: war stopped, Blair gone, next election won.

    I was on the march against the war, in case you think I'm bullshitting.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,369
    Scott_xP said:

    That's a high bar considering Alastair Fucking Campbell, but you may well be right.
    Couple of observations on Campbell (speaking as someone who was highly opposed to the Iraq war at the time and remain so):
    1. Campbell worked for Blair. Johnson works for Cummings;
    2. The Iraq war was happening anyway, regardless of our participation in it. The only people really harmed by our participation in it were UK services personnel (not to minimise that, just to observe that the perhaps 100,000's Iraqi deaths didn't result from any decision made in this country).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    If this were true why do Sunak and Patel get good ratings from pragmatic remainers on here? I think Barclay and Hancock are all right too - although Hancock has been shafted by being given responsibility for nearly everything thru the crisis with little support.

    There just is a lot of dross. Bring in some fresh MPs we havent heard of, dont mind if they are leave or remain, they are very likely better than Williamson, Raab, JRM, Jenrick, Sharma, Dowden.
    Patel has only very recently started getting plaudits, when I started saying that I thought people had called Patel wrong here I was laughed at and ridiculed for saying so. Similarly when Sunak was promoted he was dismissed by many here, despite having been tipped as a potential future PM in a thread header here.

    Boris has brought in some fresh blood to the Cabinet that was greatly needed. No Cabinet is ever perfect and there are a great many names from previous Cabinets you could equally raise question marks over.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,954
    Phil said:

    Er, no. Everyone knows that after-dinner speakers re-use material - that bit is hardly surprising. The point of Vine’s anecdote is how hard Johnson worked to maintain the illusion of "I just got here & now I’m making the great off the cuff speech, aren’t I amazing?" to absolutely everyone involved.

    Every part of the "Boris" persona is an act, carefully honed over the years: the fluffy hair (which someone floofs for him before he goes on camera), the "off-the-cuff" witticisms, all of it.

    That’s the point.
    Yes. Vine made the point that the Boris persona, which came across as a joyous antidote to slickly styled order of the New Labour method, was itself slickly styled.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,990

    What did you make of IDS's support for the invasion at the time, out of interest?
    Airbrushed from history, like Colston and his statue.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,969
    Scott_xP said:

    He launched a culture war that continues to rage, and is about to commit us to a trade war, in the middle of a Global pandemic.

    The scale of suffering is comparable.
    Scott, I am afraid that says much more about you than it does about Cummings.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Yes. Vine made the point that the Boris persona, which came across as a joyous antidote to slickly styled order of the New Labour method, was itself slickly styled.
    ars est celare artem.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,101
    malcolmg said:

    Only one moron here I am afraid, unable to have a civilised discussion. Think you should go have a lie down in a darkened corner instead of making a right show of yourself and being an ignoramus.
    Silly comments from you this morning Malcolm.

    Maybe tend the turnips for now and come back again later on a different subject.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,605

    He was the same fucking idiot he's always been. A competent leader would have strung Labour along, then concluded with a devastating speech on the day of the vote: 'The Government has failed to convince the House that invading Iraq will be worth one ounce of British blood or treasure, let alone the civilian deaths that would follow in its wake. The Conservative Party will therefore vote against the motion, and any MP who rebels will be immediately expelled from the party'.

    Et voila: war stopped, Blair gone, next election won.

    I was on the march against the war, in case you think I'm bullshitting.
    Only Ken Clarke would have done that but the Tory membership voted for IDS over Clarke in 2001 and in any case many Tory backbenchers would have rebelled to support the War even if he had, just as Blair had Labour rebels siding with the LDs to oppose the War
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,954

    He was the same fucking idiot he's always been. A competent leader would have strung Labour along, then concluded with a devastating speech on the day of the vote: 'The Government has failed to convince the House that invading Iraq will be worth one ounce of British blood or treasure, let alone the civilian deaths that would follow in its wake. The Conservative Party will therefore vote against the motion, and any MP who rebels will be immediately expelled from the party'.

    Et voila: war stopped, Blair gone, next election won.

    I was on the march against the war, in case you think I'm bullshitting.
    Interesting. I wonder how the Labour rebellion would have panned out in that scenario - the Tory support did give them something of a free pass.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    ars est celare artem.

    Well then, Boris is either artless or no good at concealment. Perhaps his issue is that you cannot give the same rehearsed off-the-cuff blatherings on TV that you can to a private gathering......
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,605
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    He launched a culture war that continues to rage, and is about to commit us to a trade war, in the middle of a Global pandemic.

    The scale of suffering is comparable.
    Leaving the EU, customs union and single market and protecting statues from being toppled and defaced is hardly the same as sending troops into Iraq
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    HYUFD said:

    Only Ken Clarke would have done that but the Tory membership voted for IDS over Clarke in 2001 and in any case many Tory backbenchers would have rebelled to support the War even if he had, just as Blair had Labour rebels siding with the LDs to oppose the War
    Oh, I'm sure it would have been extremely difficult to pull off, but this was one of those cases where it would have been both a political masterstroke and the right thing to do. A little critical and lateral thinking would have been beyond price on that occasion.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,990

    He was the same fucking idiot he's always been. A competent leader would have strung Labour along, then concluded with a devastating speech on the day of the vote: 'The Government has failed to convince the House that invading Iraq will be worth one ounce of British blood or treasure, let alone the civilian deaths that would follow in its wake. The Conservative Party will therefore vote against the motion, and any MP who rebels will be immediately expelled from the party'.

    Et voila: war stopped, Blair gone, next election won.

    I was on the march against the war, in case you think I'm bullshitting.
    Can we please have a valid citation for your last statement, thanks.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,107
    Scott_xP said:
    Falls under "Gov't decision". With the 2 metre rule in place I'm (just) about on the side of reopening now. We'll need to keep a careful eye on the reproductive rate of the virus anyhow.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,101
    DavidL said:

    To me these adverts seem more focused on suppression of the vote than GOTV. They are designed to make moderate and sane Republicans think whether they can really vote for Trump. Its a legitimate question and one of the considerations is what is the other side offering (cf Corbyn here). If its a "nice" unthreatening man that senior Republicans quite like the incentive to get out and vote for Trump is reduced.
    Trouble is that too many of these arguments revolve around, “yeah, but Trump is a c**t, isn’t he?”

    Yes, he is a c**t. But if you want to really peel moderate and sane republicans away from him then you need someone moderate and sane taking their concerns on economic and social dislocation seriously.

    Otherwise, you risk them hearing that you think they’re a c**t because they’re voting for a c**t - in which case they’ll say: “f**k you, *you’re* the c**t; I’m still voting for my c**t.“
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,211

    ars est celare artem.
    True, but it means Boris now has a problem if he wants to last.

    His act thus far has been pretty one-dimensional. Ruffle hair look shambolic waffle waffle jabber something clever preferably in Latin.

    Impressive the first time you see it, but it becomes pretty obvious the second or third time.

    Now, maybe he will be able to reveal hidden depths, but if not he will have to spend a lot of time looking for fridges to hide in.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,725
    HYUFD said:

    Leaving the EU, customs union and single market and protecting statues from being toppled and defaced is hardly the same as sending troops into Iraq

    Iraq was our greatest foreign policy blunder for decades.

    Until Brexit, which will eclipse it at a canter
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Oh, I'm sure it would have been extremely difficult to pull off, but this was one of those cases where it would have been both a political masterstroke and the right thing to do. A little critical and lateral thinking would have been beyond price on that occasion.
    IDS did the right thing. It was right to topple Saddam.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,605
    Scott_xP said:
    62% of Tory voters though say it is the right time or too late
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,547

    Oh, I'm sure it would have been extremely difficult to pull off, but this was one of those cases where it would have been both a political masterstroke and the right thing to do. A little critical and lateral thinking would have been beyond price on that occasion.
    It's a good example of the Tory Atlanticist tendency being strategically blind. IDS thought it was clever to go off to Washington trying to out-poodle Blair.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Trouble is that too many of these arguments revolve around, “yeah, but Trump is a c**t, isn’t he?”

    Yes, he is a c**t. But if you want to really peel moderate and sane republicans away from him then you need someone moderate and sane taking their concerns on economic and social dislocation seriously.

    Otherwise, you risk them hearing that you think they’re a c**t because they’re voting for a c**t - in which case they’ll say: “f**k you, *you’re* the c**t; I’m still voting for my c**t.“
    Yeah but hence in this advert they've got footage of Lindsay Graham having a go at Trump personally, not Republicans, while also saying nice things about Biden.

    The message is if even Lindsay Graham reckons Trump is too far gone and Biden is OK then its safe for me to be OK with Biden too.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Airbrushed from history, like Colston and his statue.
    So which is more like airbrushing history: putting a socking great statue in plain view on a fcking great plinth for 125 years, or tipping it out of sight in a harbour?

    Your complaint should really be directed at what some talented comedian persuaded your parents was your education. I have known since about the age of 10 that the slave trade was as important a bit of this country's economic history as the Industrial Revolution (and was an atrocity on a scale with the holocaust) and to realise this you don't even have to be taught it, you just have to look around you in London or Bristol or Liverpool. At things like statues. Your claim of a great cover up is like that David Lammy piece to camera about how there are no policemen, while a policeman wanders about in the background.

    And lots of tories, like me, thought at the time that IDS was a complete and utter ____ to start with, and the same in spades redoubled when he started his Little Sir Echo act over Iraq.
This discussion has been closed.