I think I'll be taking a break from the site tonight.
The events of this weekend were entirely predictable. The comments on here by certain posters also so.
The far-left and far-right both want the same thing: a culture war.
Each is secretly delighted the other is giving it to them, as they hope to use it to broaden their bases of support around their respective polarities.
Don't play their game. It's hard work arguing for nuance and moderation, but it's the right thing to do.
I think we have to hope for a summer wash out, otherwise i can see this becoming a weekly thing.
I think I'll be taking a break from the site tonight.
The events of this weekend were entirely predictable. The comments on here by certain posters also so.
The far-left and far-right both want the same thing: a culture war.
Each is secretly delighted the other is giving it to them, as they hope to use it to broaden their bases of support around their respective polarities.
Don't play their game. It's hard work arguing for nuance and moderation, but it's the right thing to do.
I think we have to hope for a summer wash out, otherwise i can see this becoming a weekly thing.
Everyone is assuming it will stop.
There is no guarantee it will stop.
I am very concerned it won't, especially as lots of people won't be at school, college, uni or work. Idle hands and all that.
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
You may want to qualify that as Sky have just reported that genuine elements stood on guard at Churchill's statue including ex military who do not accept Churchill's statue should be a target
Sometimes balance does need to be applied
Nothing to qualify, Mr G. I am sure not everyone would have been inclined to do any damage, but when the far-right is on the prowl it’s best to protect symbols of all that they loathe.
We are at one condemning the far right
There is no difference between the far left and the far right.
Two vile cheeks of the same arse.
Far left are mostly skinny girls, far right are mostly fat blokes. Being neither I have a well-founded claim to neutrality, though the girls are more telegenic.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
If you think it is binary, then you think that someone possesing canabis is the same as Fred West.
They’re both crimes. But one carries a more serious penalty than the other (or would have done if West hadn’t killed himself).
Similarly, wounding a police officer will carry a more severe sentence than destroying a statue. The statue might be three to six months and a big fine. Wounding a police officer would I imagine start at six months.
Similarly, breaking lockdown will be a small fine.
Hopefully all involved in the crimes arising over the last fortnight will get sentences proportionate to what they’ve done. Because that’s the rule of law, which sets us apart from say, China.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Is that how you justified voting for a racist party last year?
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
You may want to qualify that as Sky have just reported that genuine elements stood on guard at Churchill's statue including ex military who do not accept Churchill's statue should be a target
Sometimes balance does need to be applied
Nothing to qualify, Mr G. I am sure not everyone would have been inclined to do any damage, but when the far-right is on the prowl it’s best to protect symbols of all that they loathe.
We are at one condemning the far right
There is no difference between the far left and the far right.
Two vile cheeks of the same arse.
Far left are mostly skinny girls, far right are mostly fat blokes. Being neither I have a well-founded claim to neutrality, though the girls are more telegenic.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
I think I'll be taking a break from the site tonight.
The events of this weekend were entirely predictable. The comments on here by certain posters also so.
The far-left and far-right both want the same thing: a culture war.
Each is secretly delighted the other is giving it to them, as they hope to use it to broaden their bases of support around their respective polarities.
Don't play their game. It's hard work arguing for nuance and moderation, but it's the right thing to do.
I think we have to hope for a summer wash out, otherwise i can see this becoming a weekly thing.
Oh God no, let's not hope for miserable confinement in our homes (and the destruction of thousands of businesses desperately hoping for good weather to try to salvage something from domestic tourism, outdoor dining and so on this Summer) just because it might deter misbehaviour by a few hundred scumbags.
Save for the Colston statue incident, disorder related to these protests and counter-protests has (insofar as I'm aware) failed to spread beyond central London. I'm sceptical about BLM because of their leftist rhetoric, but the people turning up at most of the demos out in the country seem pretty pacific and only interested in the basic anti-racist message. Really they ought not to be demonstrating at all, given that we're being told not to hold mass gatherings to control the virus, but at least they're not running amok. So, let the police contain any trouble in London, and fingers crossed it will simply burn itself out as boredom sets in.
My main fear continues to be that there are violent clashes, a protestor ends up dead, that person transpires (inevitably) to be black, and then we get an immediate rush to judgment against the police and 2011 redux. There not having been pitched battles between the two sides this weekend, and with the formal BLM organisation at least having decided that discretion is the better part of valour when it comes to taking to the streets at the same time as the skinheads, I feel a little more confident tonight that we may avoid that sort of outcome.
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
Oh, I don't know - I suspect this defining image of Churchill defaced by leftwing protesters may linger in the public mind for a while:
That can be dismissed as the handiwork of a solitary vandal with a spray can. In fact, if everyone present had turned on the statue there would be nothing left of it, so it could be seen as a kind of vindication.
That was clearly the work of one person. When a movement really wants to desecrate that very same statue the below is the result.
To be honest, riot-wise, on both sides, I think this whole thing has been something of a damp squib. Yes, there have been a few pavement scuffles and some heightened yobbishness but nothing comparable to the London riots of yore. We just don't seem to do civil disorder anymore.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
Strange that I don't recall you making this running commentary whilst Antifa thugs were injuring 60 police officers and committing criminal damage last week in a 'largely peaceful' demonstration.
These thugs attacking police is sickening and they should be hunted down and prosecuted. But your hypocrisy is pretty sickening as well.
“Antifa” doesn’t exist as an organisation, and even if it did, what’s the problem with being Anti-Fascist? Last week saw demonstrations for and on behalf of Black Lives Matter - an organisation whose core aims I unapologetically support - which (as is the way of these demonstrations sadly eg poll tax, university tuition, anti-globalisation) had unwanted elements that caused trouble. The fundamental difference is that these people today had no corresponding cause that anyone can articulate. All of them, to a man, came for trouble, to “defend” monuments they alleged, which is clearly an expectation of violence, and when no monuments were troubled , disappointed, they attacked. While I accept that plenty on the BLM Marches went on them for purely for trouble, a significant number, the majority, did not. That’s the difference. There was no underlying cause for anyone to be there today. Coulson was unlawfully pulled down because he was a slave trader to make a, perhaps misguided, point. The memorial to the policeman outside Parliament was urinated upon, exactly why? Because the bloke who did so went went to get pissed and fight. There is no moral equivalence, none.
You are 100% correct I did not run a commentary last week but there were plenty that did. Those that did such sterling service are not, for some strange reason, running a commentary this week, so I decided to step into the breach. Perhaps we are all hypocrites.
Well, at least after all this furore we've made some progress in acknowledging hypocrisy, even if the minimizing and special pleading are still in evidence.
Can we all at least agree from now on that all violence to people and property committed by whatever political side, for whatever reason, should be condemned by all and punished by due process of law? If we can't settle on that, then there's very little agreement that can be reached on anything.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
I’ve never said what happened to Coulson’s statue was legal but it was more than defensible morally. Those responsible should get what they deserve from a court and be roundly applauded on their way out (or out of prison if applicable).
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
Oh, I don't know - I suspect this defining image of Churchill defaced by leftwing protesters may linger in the public mind for a while:
That can be dismissed as the handiwork of a solitary vandal with a spray can. In fact, if everyone present had turned on the statue there would be nothing left of it, so it could be seen as a kind of vindication.
That was clearly the work of one person. When a movement really wants to desecrate that very same statue the below is the result.
To be honest, riot-wise, on both sides, I think this whole thing has been something of a damp squib. Yes, there have been a few pavement scuffles and some heightened yobbishness but nothing comparable to the London riots of yore. We just don't seem to do civil disorder anymore.
The French yet again this weekend showing their second major sport after football hasn't been harmed by a break for covid...
I think I'll be taking a break from the site tonight.
The events of this weekend were entirely predictable. The comments on here by certain posters also so.
The far-left and far-right both want the same thing: a culture war.
Each is secretly delighted the other is giving it to them, as they hope to use it to broaden their bases of support around their respective polarities.
Don't play their game. It's hard work arguing for nuance and moderation, but it's the right thing to do.
I think we have to hope for a summer wash out, otherwise i can see this becoming a weekly thing.
Oh God no, let's not hope for miserable confinement in our homes (and the destruction of thousands of businesses desperately hoping for good weather to try to salvage something from domestic tourism, outdoor dining and so on this Summer) just because it might deter misbehaviour by a few hundred scumbags.
Save for the Colston statue incident, disorder related to these protests and counter-protests has (insofar as I'm aware) failed to spread beyond central London. I'm sceptical about BLM because of their leftist rhetoric, but the people turning up at most of the demos out in the country seem pretty pacific and only interested in the basic anti-racist message. Really they ought not to be demonstrating at all, given that we're being told not to hold mass gatherings to control the virus, but at least they're not running amok. So, let the police contain any trouble in London, and fingers crossed it will simply burn itself out as boredom sets in.
My main fear continues to be that there are violent clashes, a protestor ends up dead, that person transpires (inevitably) to be black, and then we get an immediate rush to judgment against the police and 2011 redux. There not having been pitched battles between the two sides this weekend, and with the formal BLM organisation at least having decided that discretion is the better part of valour when it comes to taking to the streets at the same time as the skinheads, I feel a little more confident tonight that we may avoid that sort of outcome.
If BLM decide to stay off the streets because of the Nazis, and the Nazis decide without a load of BLM activists to beat up there’s no point in being out, the situation will resolve itself. Which would be elegant if in other ways less than satisfactory.
What we really need to know, bizarre though it may sound, is whether this causes a spike in the infection rate. Because if it doesn’t, it means we can scrub this lockdown and get back to normal.
If it does, we’re more comprehensively buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript. Because it means there is no way we can return to normal life until we have a vaccine.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
Strange that I don't recall you making this running commentary whilst Antifa thugs were injuring 60 police officers and committing criminal damage last week in a 'largely peaceful' demonstration.
These thugs attacking police is sickening and they should be hunted down and prosecuted. But your hypocrisy is pretty sickening as well.
“Antifa” doesn’t exist as an organisation, and even if it did, what’s the problem with being Anti-Fascist? Last week saw demonstrations for and on behalf of Black Lives Matter - an organisation whose core aims I unapologetically support - which (as is the way of these demonstrations sadly eg poll tax, university tuition, anti-globalisation) had unwanted elements that caused trouble. The fundamental difference is that these people today had no corresponding cause that anyone can articulate. All of them, to a man, came for trouble, to “defend” monuments they alleged, which is clearly an expectation of violence, and when no monuments were troubled , disappointed, they attacked. While I accept that plenty on the BLM Marches went on them for purely for trouble, a significant number, the majority, did not. That’s the difference. There was no underlying cause for anyone to be there today. Coulson was unlawfully pulled down because he was a slave trader to make a, perhaps misguided, point. The memorial to the policeman outside Parliament was urinated upon, exactly why? Because the bloke who did so went went to get pissed and fight. There is no moral equivalence, none.
You are 100% correct I did not run a commentary last week but there were plenty that did. Those that did such sterling service are not, for some strange reason, running a commentary this week, so I decided to step into the breach. Perhaps we are all hypocrites.
I don't support the core aims of BLM, and nor would most people who read their website, and their UK Facebook page (I don't think they have a UK specific website).
I don't want to dismantle capitalism. I don't oppose the nuclear family. I don't want to dismantle the institutions of the British State. I think that Mark Duggan received justice. I don't support an end to deportations of illegal immigrants. None of this should be any surprise. I don't support the far left.
2 more retirements announced this week ahead of 2021 Scottish Parliament election: David Stewart (Labour, Highlands and Islands regional list) and Angus MacDonald (SNP, Falkirk East)
Overall, 16 MSPs have confirmed so far that they won't stand again next year:
SNP Bruce Crawford (born in 1955): MSP since 1999 Mike Russell (1953), MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007 Stewart Stevenson (1946), MSP since 2001 Aileen Campbell (1980), MSP since 2007 Richard Lyle (1950), MSP since 2011 James Dornan (1953), MSP since 2011 Angus MacDonald (1963). MSP since 2011 Gail Ross (1977), MSP since 2016
ex MSP Mark McDonald (1980), MSP since 2011
Conservatives Ruth Davidson (1978), MSP since 2011 Margaret Mitchell (1952), MSP since 2003
Labour Elaine Smith (1963) MSP since 1999 David Stewart (1956), MSP since 2007 (MP between 1997-2005) Mary Fee (1954), MSP since 2011 Neil Findlay (1969), MSP since 2011
Greens John Finnie (1956), MSP since 2011 (first election as SNP)
Pensionable age for MSPs is 65. However, they can access to pensions at 55 with a reduction in the amount received (4% for each year before 65). Retirement pension of 1/50 of final salary for each year of service. Current annual salary is 64,470.
I think I'll be taking a break from the site tonight.
The events of this weekend were entirely predictable. The comments on here by certain posters also so.
The far-left and far-right both want the same thing: a culture war.
Each is secretly delighted the other is giving it to them, as they hope to use it to broaden their bases of support around their respective polarities.
Don't play their game. It's hard work arguing for nuance and moderation, but it's the right thing to do.
I think we have to hope for a summer wash out, otherwise i can see this becoming a weekly thing.
Oh God no, let's not hope for miserable confinement in our homes (and the destruction of thousands of businesses desperately hoping for good weather to try to salvage something from domestic tourism, outdoor dining and so on this Summer) just because it might deter misbehaviour by a few hundred scumbags.
Save for the Colston statue incident, disorder related to these protests and counter-protests has (insofar as I'm aware) failed to spread beyond central London. I'm sceptical about BLM because of their leftist rhetoric, but the people turning up at most of the demos out in the country seem pretty pacific and only interested in the basic anti-racist message. Really they ought not to be demonstrating at all, given that we're being told not to hold mass gatherings to control the virus, but at least they're not running amok. So, let the police contain any trouble in London, and fingers crossed it will simply burn itself out as boredom sets in.
My main fear continues to be that there are violent clashes, a protestor ends up dead, that person transpires (inevitably) to be black, and then we get an immediate rush to judgment against the police and 2011 redux. There not having been pitched battles between the two sides this weekend, and with the formal BLM organisation at least having decided that discretion is the better part of valour when it comes to taking to the streets at the same time as the skinheads, I feel a little more confident tonight that we may avoid that sort of outcome.
If BLM decide to stay off the streets because of the Nazis, and the Nazis decide without a load of BLM activists to beat up there’s no point in being out, the situation will resolve itself. Which would be elegant if in other ways less than satisfactory.
What we really need to know, bizarre though it may sound, is whether this causes a spike in the infection rate. Because if it doesn’t, it means we can scrub this lockdown and get back to normal.
If it does, we’re more comprehensively buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript. Because it means there is no way we can return to normal life until we have a vaccine.
All it will take is a council trying to remove a statue or somebody vandalizing one and we will be off again. And on the other side, some sort of story of racist attack (doesn't matter if true or not*).
* Birmingham had riots between black.and Asian comminity that were sparked by a false story on a local radio station, after tensions already raised. It was why i was very annoyed at the media misreporting of the transport worker who they kept repeating died after being spat at by somebody with covid. They were still claiming this last week, when an investigation found no evidence of spitting and the individual involved in the altercation was tested for covid and never had it.
I think I'll be taking a break from the site tonight.
The events of this weekend were entirely predictable. The comments on here by certain posters also so.
The far-left and far-right both want the same thing: a culture war.
Each is secretly delighted the other is giving it to them, as they hope to use it to broaden their bases of support around their respective polarities.
Don't play their game. It's hard work arguing for nuance and moderation, but it's the right thing to do.
I think we have to hope for a summer wash out, otherwise i can see this becoming a weekly thing.
Oh God no, let's not hope for miserable confinement in our homes (and the destruction of thousands of businesses desperately hoping for good weather to try to salvage something from domestic tourism, outdoor dining and so on this Summer) just because it might deter misbehaviour by a few hundred scumbags.
Save for the Colston statue incident, disorder related to these protests and counter-protests has (insofar as I'm aware) failed to spread beyond central London. I'm sceptical about BLM because of their leftist rhetoric, but the people turning up at most of the demos out in the country seem pretty pacific and only interested in the basic anti-racist message. Really they ought not to be demonstrating at all, given that we're being told not to hold mass gatherings to control the virus, but at least they're not running amok. So, let the police contain any trouble in London, and fingers crossed it will simply burn itself out as boredom sets in.
My main fear continues to be that there are violent clashes, a protestor ends up dead, that person transpires (inevitably) to be black, and then we get an immediate rush to judgment against the police and 2011 redux. There not having been pitched battles between the two sides this weekend, and with the formal BLM organisation at least having decided that discretion is the better part of valour when it comes to taking to the streets at the same time as the skinheads, I feel a little more confident tonight that we may avoid that sort of outcome.
If BLM decide to stay off the streets because of the Nazis, and the Nazis decide without a load of BLM activists to beat up there’s no point in being out, the situation will resolve itself. Which would be elegant if in other ways less than satisfactory.
What we really need to know, bizarre though it may sound, is whether this causes a spike in the infection rate. Because if it doesn’t, it means we can scrub this lockdown and get back to normal.
If it does, we’re more comprehensively buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript. Because it means there is no way we can return to normal life until we have a vaccine.
There are apparently a few thousand protesters in London today. Approx 1 in 3000 have the virus in the UK. Given most of those with the virus wouldnt choose to be out protesting for reasons of 1) not feeling up to it or 2) trying to avoid spreading it, it should be clear that the number of infected in the protest is likely to be low single figures and may even be zero. Note also not all infected are presently contagious.
As an estimate Id guess its in for 10-30 new infections and <1 hospital admission. Those will in turn cause some new cases in the future, but its really not going to cause a mass spike observable in the data.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
The defence of both tyrants and murderers down the ages. Yes I broke the law but I did it for a higher purpose.
It is right up there with 'I was only obeying orders'.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
On topic, I think Mr Ed is correct that there is a reasonable chance that Biden goes with a Hispanic woman. But I think the Junior Senator from Nevada is a better bet, Catherine Cortez Mastro.
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
Yeah??
I was at the riots today. I saw everything with my own eyes.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
If you think it is binary, then you think that someone possesing canabis is the same as Fred West.
No. I don’t.
But someone possessing cannabis for their own use is the same as someone possessing cannabis with the intention of sharing it with their girlfriend
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
You may want to qualify that as Sky have just reported that genuine elements stood on guard at Churchill's statue including ex military who do not accept Churchill's statue should be a target
Sometimes balance does need to be applied
Nothing to qualify, Mr G. I am sure not everyone would have been inclined to do any damage, but when the far-right is on the prowl it’s best to protect symbols of all that they loathe.
We are at one condemning the far right
There is no difference between the far left and the far right.
Two vile cheeks of the same arse.
Nazi is short for National Socialists.
Indeed. The so-called far right have nothing in common with the right. They are keen on socialism and a big state when it suits them, it's a total misnomer and truism fallacy to define racist as right then claim all racists are right wing.
The GDR stood for the German Democratic Republic but I am not sure anyone would claim it was democratic in any meaningful sense.
I will concede that when you get to the extremes there is not much to pick between them but the association people try to make between the Nazis and Socialism is extremely tenuous given Hitler's view of proper socialists and their ilk.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Everyone breaks the law somehow at some point. The majority of us on a regular basis.
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
They didn't call it off. Trafalgar Square was absolutely full of BLM
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
Mike was positing that two people who performed the same actions do not have the same level of guilt because one believes the right thing. I respectfully disagree.
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
They didn't call it off. Trafalgar Square was absolutely full of BLM
I know because I was there
Are you going to write an article about it? I hope so.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
The defence of both tyrants and murderers down the ages. Yes I broke the law but I did it for a higher purpose.
It is right up there with 'I was only obeying orders'.
No it's the polar opposite of "I was only obeying orders." It's literally breaking orders.
Breaking the law is illegal but neither right nor wrong. If the law, if the orders, are wrong then is breaking it right or wrong? It's a very old philosophical question. Socrates, Plato and Thomas Aquinas and many more have all discussed the rights and wrongs of this. The idea that law is right in and of itself is the basis of "only following orders"
2 more retirements announced this week ahead of 2021 Scottish Parliament election: David Stewart (Labour, Highlands and Islands regional list) and Angus MacDonald (SNP, Falkirk East)
Overall, 16 MSPs have confirmed so far that they won't stand again next year:
SNP Bruce Crawford (born in 1955): MSP since 1999 Mike Russell (1953), MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007 Stewart Stevenson (1946), MSP since 2001 Aileen Campbell (1980), MSP since 2007 Richard Lyle (1950), MSP since 2011 James Dornan (1953), MSP since 2011 Angus MacDonald (1963). MSP since 2011 Gail Ross (1977), MSP since 2016
ex MSP Mark McDonald (1980), MSP since 2011
Conservatives Ruth Davidson (1978), MSP since 2011 Margaret Mitchell (1952), MSP since 2003
Labour Elaine Smith (1963) MSP since 1999 David Stewart (1956), MSP since 2007 (MP between 1997-2005) Mary Fee (1954), MSP since 2011 Neil Findlay (1969), MSP since 2011
Greens John Finnie (1956), MSP since 2011 (first election as SNP)
Pensionable age for MSPs is 65. However, they can access to pensions at 55 with a reduction in the amount received (4% for each year before 65). Retirement pension of 1/50 of final salary for each year of service. Current annual salary is 64,470.
How many MSPs are left from 1999 now? I’m guessing it’s not many given the turnover in seats between 2007 and 2016.
There are nine in the Welsh assembly - one each for the Tories and Liberal Demcorats, two from Plaid, one who used to be Plaid, and four from Labour.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
Mike was positing that two people who performed the same actions do not have the same level of guilt because one believes the right thing. I respectfully disagree.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
I’ve never said what happened to Coulson’s statue was legal but it was more than defensible morally. Those responsible should get what they deserve from a court and be roundly applauded on their way out (or out of prison if applicable).
Maybe this is the moment Liverpool finally decides not to be quite so left-wing. At the moment it's the only place in England where people from all backgrounds and ages support Labour.
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
BLM are a far-left group who want to abolish the police and abolish capitalism. Just because they use this name shouldn't give them a free pass. If a far right-wing group decided to call itself something like "Save The Planet" it wouldn't excuse their policies just because they chose a name that expressed an idea no-one could disagree with.
I can't believe people fall for it, and yet we have people bigging up Antifa saying "What's wrong with being Anti Fascist" on this very thread.
As I said earlier, they've made a name that virtue signallers can't bring themselves to criticise no matter what they do. Well played to them for fooling the silly old sods.
Maybe this is the moment Liverpool finally decides not to be quite so left-wing. At the moment it's the only place in England where people from all backgrounds and ages support Labour.
Again, it isn't as if they don't confront their slavery past. There is a bloody massive museum all about it. Which IMO the right thing to do. You don't just erase history, you educate people about it.
Loved the publicans' response to a colour bar was "Black Troops Only"!
The US Army prepared a film for GIs coming to Britain - in one scene an elderly lady invites a black soldier (first) and the white narrator to tea - the narrator explaining that thats how things get done in Britain
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Or pay the price for breaking it. If the country isn't an authoritarian dictatorship the penalty for breaking most laws isn't life in prison or banishment.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
I’ve never said what happened to Coulson’s statue was legal but it was more than defensible morally. Those responsible should get what they deserve from a court and be roundly applauded on their way out (or out of prison if applicable).
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
They didn't call it off. Trafalgar Square was absolutely full of BLM
I know because I was there
Are you going to write an article about it? I hope so.
An Albanian taxi driver filled in most of the details.
Maybe this is the moment Liverpool finally decides not to be quite so left-wing. At the moment it's the only place in England where people from all backgrounds and ages support Labour.
Again, it isn't as if they don't confront their slavery past. There is a bloody massive museum all about it. Which IMO the right thing to do. You don't just erase history, you educate people about it.
Nobody wants to erase history.
Wanting to stop celebrating certain people isn't the same as erasing history.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
Mike was positing that two people who performed the same actions do not have the same level of guilt because one believes the right thing. I respectfully disagree.
So your against whistleblowers?
Surely the whole point of a whistleblower is that they expose unlawful actions?
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Everyone breaks the law somehow at some point. The majority of us on a regular basis.
Sure. And we are all equally culpable. You don’t get a hall pass for believing the right thing
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
BLM are a far-left group who want to abolish the police and abolish capitalism. Just because they use this name shouldn't give them a free pass. If a far right-wing group decided to call itself something like "Save The Planet" it wouldn't excuse their policies just because they chose a name that expressed an idea no-one could disagree with.
I can't believe people fall for it, and yet we have people bigging up Antifa saying "What's wrong with being Anti Fascist" on this very thread.
As I said earlier, they've made a name that virtue signallers can't bring themselves to criticise no matter what they do. Well played to them for fooling the silly old sods.
You seemed to be forgetting even after 3 months most people think the death figure announced every day is the number of people who died yesterday....
If BLM decide to stay off the streets because of the Nazis, and the Nazis decide without a load of BLM activists to beat up there’s no point in being out, the situation will resolve itself. Which would be elegant if in other ways less than satisfactory.
What we really need to know, bizarre though it may sound, is whether this causes a spike in the infection rate. Because if it doesn’t, it means we can scrub this lockdown and get back to normal.
If it does, we’re more comprehensively buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript. Because it means there is no way we can return to normal life until we have a vaccine.
It's hardly that simple. In addition to what the scientists have been suggesting for a while, we're already accumulating quite a lot of evidence to the effect that the virus isn't very good at spreading outdoors. AFAIK there have been no spikes related to the gradual migration of folk out into the parks (where I believe more people are now to be found than was typical before the start of the pandemic,) or from flocking to the beaches, and there was certainly no sudden jump in cases after all those VE Day parties that people were clucking about. And, in fact, given that the BLM demos have been taking place since about the beginning of the month, I'd go so far as to say that they don't seem to be making the blindest bit of difference either.
Now, hopefully our frightened Government will be paying attention both to all of this and what's happened in other European economies that have started to unshutter ahead of us, and will dump the wretched two metre rule for outdoor settings, ideally immediately. That'll help a lot of hospitality businesses that have decent amounts of outdoor space, and should allow attractions like theme parks, historic monuments and gardens to operate at something not too far off normal capacity.
None of this, however, means that the outlook for what might be far more risky activities in enclosed spaces is any less uncertain. I remain hopeful that the more optimistic theories about natural resistance amongst the population or partial immunity conferred by previous infection with common cold coronaviruses could turn out to be true, but for the time being I think ministers are justified in being a bit more cautious about indoor activities.
Hopefully what will happen next, assuming that there are no nasty surprises from the health stats for the rest of the month, is that we can have restaurants at least back on July 4th - preferably with a 1m rule outdoors, even if the Government feels that 2m has to be stuck to indoors for the time being. If the disease still doesn't spike after that then maybe they can go for 1m indoors as well at the end of July, plan for 1m on public transport a couple of weeks after that if there's still no spike in caseload, and also tell the schools to start preparing on that basis for September. That'll allow something much closer to normality to resume, and perhaps by the Autumn the case load will be low enough and we'll have enough information about the disease to be able to manage it in a less disruptive way until it's beaten.
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
They didn't call it off. Trafalgar Square was absolutely full of BLM
The best thing that could happen for the Tories is if Shaun Bailey remains the London mayoral candidate and he wins next year. (It would probably be 50.1% to 49.9% though).
Maybe this is the moment Liverpool finally decides not to be quite so left-wing. At the moment it's the only place in England where people from all backgrounds and ages support Labour.
Again, it isn't as if they don't confront their slavery past. There is a bloody massive museum all about it. Which IMO the right thing to do. You don't just erase history, you educate people about it.
Nobody wants to erase history.
Wanting to stop celebrating certain people isn't the same as erasing history.
The street name now clearly has a very different context and people associate and "celebrate" a famous song which has nothing to do with crimes of the past. It achieves nothing to delete it.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
Mike was positing that two people who performed the same actions do not have the same level of guilt because one believes the right thing. I respectfully disagree.
So your against whistleblowers?
There are specific legal routes and protections for whistleblowers.
I am very much against the culture of leaking that seems to have got out of hand in recent years
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
Mike was positing that two people who performed the same actions do not have the same level of guilt because one believes the right thing. I respectfully disagree.
Context matters in life. Context matters for why actions are done and why they can be right or wrong.
If I jump in front of a car to sue them for damages, or if I jump in front of a car because I want to save a child are they same thing? Are they equally right or wrong?
The best thing that could happen for the Tories is if Shaun Bailey remains the London mayoral candidate and he wins next year. (It would probably be 50.1% to 49.9% though).
52-48 shurely? And Khan we have endless debates about a rerun?
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
BLM are a far-left group who want to abolish the police and abolish capitalism. Just because they use this name shouldn't give them a free pass. If a far right-wing group decided to call itself something like "Save The Planet" it wouldn't excuse their policies just because they chose a name that expressed an idea no-one could disagree with.
I can't believe people fall for it, and yet we have people bigging up Antifa saying "What's wrong with being Anti Fascist" on this very thread.
As I said earlier, they've made a name that virtue signallers can't bring themselves to criticise no matter what they do. Well played to them for fooling the silly old sods.
Apparently if you call yourself 'Against Bad Things', a substantial minority of gullible people will assume that it must automatically be true, and that it is literally impossible for you to do wrong because, well, you're Against Bad Things.
It then follows logically that anyone against Against Bad Things must automatically be in favour of bad things themselves...
"Between 17 March and 15 April, around 25,000 people were discharged from hospitals into care homes, compared with around 35,000 people in the same period in 2019. Due to government policy at the time, not all patients were tested for COVID-19 before discharge, with priority given to patients with symptoms."
"Watchdog also confirms 25,000 hospital patients were sent to care homes before testing became routine"
"Health unions and senior MPs have been deeply concerned by the NAO findings, which also confirmed that 25,000 hospital patients were discharged to care homes at the height of the pandemic before testing became routine."
"around 25,000 patients were discharged into care homes without being tested for Coronavirus at the height of the pandemic. That is according to a report by the National Audit Office..."
All of them - the whole bloody lot - add a prejudicial assumption about the proportion of patients that were not tested, which is very different to the original.
A huge part of the problem. No thinking. No nuance. No care for precision.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Or pay the price for breaking it. If the country isn't an authoritarian dictatorship the penalty for breaking most laws isn't life in prison or banishment.
You are entirely missing the point of the discussion.
If two people break the same law they should be treated the same way.
It’s called equality before the law and it is an absolutely fundamental principle.
Mike was saying that if you are “anti-racist” you should be let off because you “are more in the right”
Maybe this is the moment Liverpool finally decides not to be quite so left-wing. At the moment it's the only place in England where people from all backgrounds and ages support Labour.
Again, it isn't as if they don't confront their slavery past. There is a bloody massive museum all about it. Which IMO the right thing to do. You don't just erase history, you educate people about it.
Nobody wants to erase history.
Wanting to stop celebrating certain people isn't the same as erasing history.
We are often on opposite sides of debates, but your posting on statues and racism this week has been exceptional. Thank you.
What most anti-racists are asking for is perfectly reasonable yet the consensus opinion on here has been to consistently misrepresent it and conflate it with the extreme left wing groups that leech onto it. You have had the patience to consistently break that down and expose simple truths like the one above.
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
Yeah??
I was at the riots today. I saw everything with my own eyes.
I'm lost. When did the Penarth crisis sojourn end?
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
Strange that I don't recall you making this running commentary whilst Antifa thugs were injuring 60 police officers and committing criminal damage last week in a 'largely peaceful' demonstration.
These thugs attacking police is sickening and they should be hunted down and prosecuted. But your hypocrisy is pretty sickening as well.
“Antifa” doesn’t exist as an organisation, and even if it did, what’s the problem with being Anti-Fascist? Last week saw demonstrations for and on behalf of Black Lives Matter - an organisation whose core aims I unapologetically support - which (as is the way of these demonstrations sadly eg poll tax, university tuition, anti-globalisation) had unwanted elements that caused trouble. The fundamental difference is that these people today had no corresponding cause that anyone can articulate. All of them, to a man, came for trouble, to “defend” monuments they alleged, which is clearly an expectation of violence, and when no monuments were troubled , disappointed, they attacked. While I accept that plenty on the BLM Marches went on them for purely for trouble, a significant number, the majority, did not. That’s the difference. There was no underlying cause for anyone to be there today. Coulson was unlawfully pulled down because he was a slave trader to make a, perhaps misguided, point. The memorial to the policeman outside Parliament was urinated upon, exactly why? Because the bloke who did so went went to get pissed and fight. There is no moral equivalence, none.
You are 100% correct I did not run a commentary last week but there were plenty that did. Those that did such sterling service are not, for some strange reason, running a commentary this week, so I decided to step into the breach. Perhaps we are all hypocrites.
The 60 number came from the Evening Standard article which was linked to in any earlier part of this same thread.
And I am not interested in moral equivalence. That is just you looking for justification for your hypocrisy. If you break the law then you should be prosecuted for it not lauded.
2 more retirements announced this week ahead of 2021 Scottish Parliament election: David Stewart (Labour, Highlands and Islands regional list) and Angus MacDonald (SNP, Falkirk East)
Overall, 16 MSPs have confirmed so far that they won't stand again next year:
SNP Bruce Crawford (born in 1955): MSP since 1999 Mike Russell (1953), MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007 Stewart Stevenson (1946), MSP since 2001 Aileen Campbell (1980), MSP since 2007 Richard Lyle (1950), MSP since 2011 James Dornan (1953), MSP since 2011 Angus MacDonald (1963). MSP since 2011 Gail Ross (1977), MSP since 2016
ex MSP Mark McDonald (1980), MSP since 2011
Conservatives Ruth Davidson (1978), MSP since 2011 Margaret Mitchell (1952), MSP since 2003
Labour Elaine Smith (1963) MSP since 1999 David Stewart (1956), MSP since 2007 (MP between 1997-2005) Mary Fee (1954), MSP since 2011 Neil Findlay (1969), MSP since 2011
Greens John Finnie (1956), MSP since 2011 (first election as SNP)
Pensionable age for MSPs is 65. However, they can access to pensions at 55 with a reduction in the amount received (4% for each year before 65). Retirement pension of 1/50 of final salary for each year of service. Current annual salary is 64,470.
How many MSPs are left from 1999 now? I’m guessing it’s not many given the turnover in seats between 2007 and 2016.
There are nine in the Welsh assembly - one each for the Tories and Liberal Demcorats, two from Plaid, one who used to be Plaid, and four from Labour.
I may have missed a few of them:
Jackie Baillie (Lab) Bruce Crawford (SNP) * retiring Roseanna Cunningham (SNP) Fergus Ewing (SNP) Linda Fabiani (SNP) Murdo Fraser (Con) Kenneth Gibson (SNP) Christine Grahame (SNP) Fiona Hyslop (SNP) Johann Lamont (Lab) Richard Lochhead (SNP). * technically not continous because of the few weeks in between he resigned the list seat to contest Moray by-election Lewis Macdonald (Lab) Ken Macintosh (Lab) Michael Matheson (SNP) Alex Neil (SNP) Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) John Swinney (SNP) Sandra White (SNP)
with non continuous service
Sarah Boyack (Lab) Mike Russell (SNP) * retiring Rhoda Grant (Lab) Iain Gray (Lab) Pauline McNeill (Lab) Gil Paterson (SNP) Elaine Smith (Lab) * retiring
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
Yeah??
I was at the riots today. I saw everything with my own eyes.
I'm lost. When did the Penarth crisis sojourn end?
A few days ago
Does this mean it is safe to leave my house now? Me and missus have done twelve weeks come Monday.
"Between 17 March and 15 April, around 25,000 people were discharged from hospitals into care homes, compared with around 35,000 people in the same period in 2019. Due to government policy at the time, not all patients were tested for COVID-19 before discharge, with priority given to patients with symptoms."
"Watchdog also confirms 25,000 hospital patients were sent to care homes before testing became routine"
"Health unions and senior MPs have been deeply concerned by the NAO findings, which also confirmed that 25,000 hospital patients were discharged to care homes at the height of the pandemic before testing became routine."
"around 25,000 patients were discharged into care homes without being tested for Coronavirus at the height of the pandemic. That is according to a report by the National Audit Office..."
All of them - the whole bloody lot - add a prejudicial assumption about the proportion of patients that were not tested, which is very different to the original.
A huge part of the problem. No thinking. No nuance. No care for precision.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Everyone breaks the law somehow at some point. The majority of us on a regular basis.
Sure. And we are all equally culpable. You don’t get a hall pass for believing the right thing
Not strictly true either, there has to be a public interest for a prosecution to go ahead. I am not getting into whether last week or this weeks offences should be charged or not, but as a society within our legal process you can get a hall pass for breaking the law if it was for a good reason.
There are fears in China and Spain that second waves have begun. If one hits the US it would be preferable if the country had a proper president rather than Trump.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
That assumes the law is right. You can say it's not "more legal" but it certainly can be "more right".
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
Mike was positing that two people who performed the same actions do not have the same level of guilt because one believes the right thing. I respectfully disagree.
Context matters in life. Context matters for why actions are done and why they can be right or wrong.
If I jump in front of a car to sue them for damages, or if I jump in front of a car because I want to save a child are they same thing? Are they equally right or wrong?
Neither are against the law.
If you hit someone on the head with a hammer because they are passing by vs you hit someone on the head with a hammer because they are stealing candy from a baby it is up to the judge to determine an appropriate sentence.
2 more retirements announced this week ahead of 2021 Scottish Parliament election: David Stewart (Labour, Highlands and Islands regional list) and Angus MacDonald (SNP, Falkirk East)
Overall, 16 MSPs have confirmed so far that they won't stand again next year:
SNP Bruce Crawford (born in 1955): MSP since 1999 Mike Russell (1953), MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007 Stewart Stevenson (1946), MSP since 2001 Aileen Campbell (1980), MSP since 2007 Richard Lyle (1950), MSP since 2011 James Dornan (1953), MSP since 2011 Angus MacDonald (1963). MSP since 2011 Gail Ross (1977), MSP since 2016
ex MSP Mark McDonald (1980), MSP since 2011
Conservatives Ruth Davidson (1978), MSP since 2011 Margaret Mitchell (1952), MSP since 2003
Labour Elaine Smith (1963) MSP since 1999 David Stewart (1956), MSP since 2007 (MP between 1997-2005) Mary Fee (1954), MSP since 2011 Neil Findlay (1969), MSP since 2011
Greens John Finnie (1956), MSP since 2011 (first election as SNP)
Pensionable age for MSPs is 65. However, they can access to pensions at 55 with a reduction in the amount received (4% for each year before 65). Retirement pension of 1/50 of final salary for each year of service. Current annual salary is 64,470.
How many MSPs are left from 1999 now? I’m guessing it’s not many given the turnover in seats between 2007 and 2016.
There are nine in the Welsh assembly - one each for the Tories and Liberal Demcorats, two from Plaid, one who used to be Plaid, and four from Labour.
I may have missed a few of them:
Jackie Baillie (Lab) Bruce Crawford (SNP) * retiring Roseanna Cunningham (SNP) Fergus Ewing (SNP) Linda Fabiani (SNP) Murdo Fraser (Con) Kenneth Gibson (SNP) Christine Grahame (SNP) Fiona Hyslop (SNP) Johann Lamont (Lab) Richard Lochhead (SNP). * technically not continous because of the few weeks in between he resigned the list seat to contest Moray by-election Lewis Macdonald (Lab) Ken Macintosh (Lab) Michael Matheson (SNP) Alex Neil (SNP) Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) John Swinney (SNP) Sandra White (SNP)
with non continuous service
Sarah Boyack (Lab) Mike Russell (SNP) * retiring Rhoda Grant (Lab) Iain Gray (Lab) Pauline McNeill (Lab) Gil Paterson (SNP) Elaine Smith (Lab) * retiring
Thanks. So it’s about the same proportion as in Cardiff at the moment.
However, I wonder if there will be many left in Wales after next year. Dafydd Elis Thomas will not be standing again, I presume Jane Hutt won’t be either, and Kirsty Williams faces a real fight to hold her seat.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
Strange that I don't recall you making this running commentary whilst Antifa thugs were injuring 60 police officers and committing criminal damage last week in a 'largely peaceful' demonstration.
These thugs attacking police is sickening and they should be hunted down and prosecuted. But your hypocrisy is pretty sickening as well.
“Antifa” doesn’t exist as an organisation, and even if it did, what’s the problem with being Anti-Fascist? Last week saw demonstrations for and on behalf of Black Lives Matter - an organisation whose core aims I unapologetically support - which (as is the way of these demonstrations sadly eg poll tax, university tuition, anti-globalisation) had unwanted elements that caused trouble. The fundamental difference is that these people today had no corresponding cause that anyone can articulate. All of them, to a man, came for trouble, to “defend” monuments they alleged, which is clearly an expectation of violence, and when no monuments were troubled , disappointed, they attacked. While I accept that plenty on the BLM Marches went on them for purely for trouble, a significant number, the majority, did not. That’s the difference. There was no underlying cause for anyone to be there today. Coulson was unlawfully pulled down because he was a slave trader to make a, perhaps misguided, point. The memorial to the policeman outside Parliament was urinated upon, exactly why? Because the bloke who did so went went to get pissed and fight. There is no moral equivalence, none.
You are 100% correct I did not run a commentary last week but there were plenty that did. Those that did such sterling service are not, for some strange reason, running a commentary this week, so I decided to step into the breach. Perhaps we are all hypocrites.
The 60 number came from the Evening Standard article which was linked to in any earlier part of this same thread.
And I am not interested in moral equivalence. That is just you looking for justification for your hypocrisy. If you break the law then you should be prosecuted for it not lauded.
There's an obvious moral distinction to be drawn between breaking the law in democratic societies where peaceful protest is allowed, and breaking the law in authoritarian societies where it is not.
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
Yeah??
I was at the riots today. I saw everything with my own eyes.
I'm lost. When did the Penarth crisis sojourn end?
A few days ago
Does this mean it is safe to leave my house now? Me and missus have done twelve weeks come Monday.
I'm allowed as a key worker doing my job
Some Timpsons have now reopened as well. Not any in Cannock, but the one in Burntwood is functioning again.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Or pay the price for breaking it. If the country isn't an authoritarian dictatorship the penalty for breaking most laws isn't life in prison or banishment.
You are entirely missing the point of the discussion.
If two people break the same law they should be treated the same way.
It’s called equality before the law and it is an absolutely fundamental principle.
Mike was saying that if you are “anti-racist” you should be let off because you “are more in the right”
Isn't justice often depicted blindfolded for this very reason?
This is exactly what I saw in Trafalgar Square, groups of black men picking on lone and vulnerable white people; there could easily have been a death if the police hadn't intervened quickly
The Football Lads were loud and aggressive, and behaved disgracefully with the police, but they didn't do anything like this. As far I could see (obviously it might have happened, I wasn't ominpresent!)
There are fears in China and Spain that second waves have begun. If one hits the US it would be preferable if the country had a proper president rather than Trump.
The first five words of that second sentence were superfluous.
There are fears in China and Spain that second waves have begun. If one hits the US it would be preferable if the country had a proper president rather than Trump.
The first five words of that second sentence were superfluous.
There are fears in China and Spain that second waves have begun. If one hits the US it would be preferable if the country had a proper president rather than Trump.
The first five words of that second sentence were superfluous.
If Trump gets a 2nd wave he will attempt to cancel the election.
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
The defence of both tyrants and murderers down the ages. Yes I broke the law but I did it for a higher purpose.
It is right up there with 'I was only obeying orders'.
No it's the polar opposite of "I was only obeying orders." It's literally breaking orders.
Breaking the law is illegal but neither right nor wrong. If the law, if the orders, are wrong then is breaking it right or wrong? It's a very old philosophical question. Socrates, Plato and Thomas Aquinas and many more have all discussed the rights and wrongs of this. The idea that law is right in and of itself is the basis of "only following orders"
Nothing the vandals have done over the last week is going to advance their cause. Indeed all it has done is turned more people against them. Moronic thugs attacking police and damaging monuments is not advancing or helping the BLM cause. Which is why so many BLM supporters on both sides of the Atlantic are so unhappy about having their protests hijacked by these tossers.
The fact you continue to defend them does you great discredit.
This is exactly what I saw in Trafalgar Square, groups of black men picking on lone and vulnerable white people; there could easily have been a death if the police hadn't intervened quickly
The Football Lads were loud and aggressive, and behaved disgracefully with the police, but they didn't do anything like this. As far I could see (obviously it might have happened, I wasn't ominpresent!)
That tweet is seriously unhelpful. They are almost certainly both British. Characterising somebody as not British because they are black is (a) inflammatory and (b) racist.
And it distracts from a possible attempted murder.
BLM appear to have played a blinder by calling off their march today. The defining images of these events will be of them pulling down an old statute of a slave trader and the far-right bovver boys attacking the good old British bobby. I suspect most will regard the latter as the less commendable look.
They didn't call it off. Trafalgar Square was absolutely full of BLM
I know because I was there
Are you going to write an article about it? I hope so.
I spent the entire afternoon moving between the large Football Lads demo in Parliament Sq and the smaller but still sizeable BLM demo in Trafalgar Sq.
My conclusions from witnessing these riots at first hand: both sides passionately believe in their cause.
Yes there was a vile bunch of brutish hooligans with the Lads hut there was also veterans, young soldiers, old people, randoms, a few black people, sports fans in GB Oympics shirts, and some very hard silent men.
:Likewise, there was a nasty hardcore of clearly aggressive agitators with BLM (mostly black but not all), but also students, hipsters, Italian girls, kids on bikes just out for a laugh, random nutters talking about God.
The trouble is the not insignficant hardcore on BOTH sides, who WERE spoiling for a fight, hopefully with each other, but failing that, fighting the cops would do.
The worst violence I saw came from BLM, who at one point were attacking solitary white people just for their skin colour - I saw this with my own eyes (and kept a fucking low profile). Very unpleasant. I did not see anything like that from the Lads but they were policed more strictly.
The main thing I have learned from all this is that, firstly, this really needs to stop very soon, because people are going to get killed, however because both sides really do feel righteously angry that may not happen.
The second thing I learned is: Wow, British police are amazing, and we are incredibly lucky to have them,
They are calm, polite, brave, resolute, and effective without being punitive. They just stood there and took horrific and provocative abuse, missiles, shouting, from both sides, and they did it without demur, as they tried to keep both sides apart and save lives. A thankless task, but one they did superbly.
The boys in blue should take a bow. They are fucking heroes.
Thanks for this eyewitness account. How did you know there were soldiers among the Lads? Soldiers are allowed to attend political demonstrations but not in uniform they're not.
It turns out Sadiq Khan was absolutely right to board up the Churchill statue and others. A smart move that ensured they were protected from the actions of pissed-up, drugged-up, far-right thugs.
Yeah??
I was at the riots today. I saw everything with my own eyes.
I'm lost. When did the Penarth crisis sojourn end?
A few days ago
Does this mean it is safe to leave my house now? Me and missus have done twelve weeks come Monday.
There is still some residual risk but it is unlikely to get clearly much safer in the the next few months. Even as the numbers go down, the restrictions will ease and people will start to forget social distancing, so the threat of a second wave will likely present for many months.
It may be better to get some time out during the summer, just in case it gets worse again as cold and flu season returns.
This is exactly what I saw in Trafalgar Square, groups of black men picking on lone and vulnerable white people; there could easily have been a death if the police hadn't intervened quickly
The Football Lads were loud and aggressive, and behaved disgracefully with the police, but they didn't do anything like this. As far I could see (obviously it might have happened, I wasn't ominpresent!)
What, the part where I told you that if idiotic vandals on the left set a precedent for political violence then idiotic vandals on the right would emulate it?
I'd say that aged pretty well.
I see the standard 'individuals must take responsibility for their own actions' right wing mantra has been suspended for the duration of (literal) hostilities.
The left has spent the last couple of weeks telling the world that you can do whatever vandalism and rioting you like if your feelings are hurt and - surprise, surprise - it seems some people were listening.
While your fellow travellers on the right bravely attack policemen from behind. Tell me, Mr Blue, these fine fellows below share your political philosophy, exactly what are the people below demonstrating for? Are they for or against the police? I can’t tell.
I have no idea. Hopefully any crimes committed on this march will be harshly punished by the law, just as those committed by your fellow travellers should have been.
Unlike you, I don't attempt to minimize or excuse obvious criminal behaviour by protesters. If they break the law, then they should have the book thrown at them.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
Actually Mike that’s bullshit
If you break the law you break the law. You are not “more right”. It’s binary.
The purpose comes into it.
No. The law is the law. If you don’t like it campaign to get it changed
Or pay the price for breaking it. If the country isn't an authoritarian dictatorship the penalty for breaking most laws isn't life in prison or banishment.
You are entirely missing the point of the discussion.
If two people break the same law they should be treated the same way.
It’s called equality before the law and it is an absolutely fundamental principle.
Mike was saying that if you are “anti-racist” you should be let off because you “are more in the right”
How did he say that?
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
I can acknowledge something as both right and illegal. I can also say the right thing done illegally should be punished because of equality under the law. Can you?
Apparently if you call yourself 'Against Bad Things', a substantial minority of gullible people will assume that it must automatically be true, and that it is literally impossible for you to do wrong because, well, you're Against Bad Things.
It then follows logically that anyone against Against Bad Things must automatically be in favour of bad things themselves...
The ADL describe Antifa thus -
These violent counter-protesters are often part of “antifa” (short for “antifascist”), a loose collection of groups, networks and individuals who believe in active, aggressive opposition to far right-wing movements. Their ideology is rooted in the assumption that the Nazi party would never have been able to come to power in Germany if people had more aggressively fought them in the streets in the 1920s and 30s. Most antifa come from the anarchist movement or from the far left, though since the 2016 presidential election, some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks...
...Another concern is the misapplication of the label “antifa” to include all counter-protesters, rather than limiting it to those who proactively seek physical confrontations with their perceived fascist adversaries. It is critical to understand how antifa fit within the larger counter-protest efforts. Doing so allows law enforcement to focus their resources on the minority who engage in violence without curtailing the civil rights of the majority of peaceful individuals who just want their voices to be heard...
... That said, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between the antifa and the white supremacist groups they oppose. Antifa reject racism but use unacceptable tactics. White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate ethnic minorities, and undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone. To date, there have not been any known antifa-related murders... (emphasis all mine)
There is, as the ADL says, no moral equivalence between Antifa and the far right. I’m no Communist, but if it came to it in 1930s Berlin, it’s the Communists I’d root for. As the man you love to venerate said after the invasion of the Soviet Union “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.”
This is exactly what I saw in Trafalgar Square, groups of black men picking on lone and vulnerable white people; there could easily have been a death if the police hadn't intervened quickly
The Football Lads were loud and aggressive, and behaved disgracefully with the police, but they didn't do anything like this. As far I could see (obviously it might have happened, I wasn't ominpresent!)
That tweet is seriously unhelpful. They are almost certainly both British. Characterising somebody as not British because they are black is (a) inflammatory and (b) racist.
And it distracts from a possible attempted murder.
Totally agree Unfortunately, that is the only one i found that wasn't the video, where difficult to see what is going on.
There are fears in China and Spain that second waves have begun. If one hits the US it would be preferable if the country had a proper president rather than Trump.
Comments
I hope you all enjoy it from a young person looking to make a mark
https://100mquotes.com/a-letter-to-my-younger-self/
Similarly, wounding a police officer will carry a more severe sentence than destroying a statue. The statue might be three to six months and a big fine. Wounding a police officer would I imagine start at six months.
Similarly, breaking lockdown will be a small fine.
Hopefully all involved in the crimes arising over the last fortnight will get sentences proportionate to what they’ve done. Because that’s the rule of law, which sets us apart from say, China.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/taiwan-builds-nerd-immunity-resist-chinese-disinformation-campaigns/
Also it's one of the better headlines I've seen this year.
To pull a Godwin, Schindler's actions were illegal but certainly right. He did the right thing despite the law (and breaking the law) while his contemporaries "only following orders" were acting legally but wrong.
https://twitter.com/RossMcCaff/status/1271857677417754626?s=20
Save for the Colston statue incident, disorder related to these protests and counter-protests has (insofar as I'm aware) failed to spread beyond central London. I'm sceptical about BLM because of their leftist rhetoric, but the people turning up at most of the demos out in the country seem pretty pacific and only interested in the basic anti-racist message. Really they ought not to be demonstrating at all, given that we're being told not to hold mass gatherings to control the virus, but at least they're not running amok. So, let the police contain any trouble in London, and fingers crossed it will simply burn itself out as boredom sets in.
My main fear continues to be that there are violent clashes, a protestor ends up dead, that person transpires (inevitably) to be black, and then we get an immediate rush to judgment against the police and 2011 redux. There not having been pitched battles between the two sides this weekend, and with the formal BLM organisation at least having decided that discretion is the better part of valour when it comes to taking to the streets at the same time as the skinheads, I feel a little more confident tonight that we may avoid that sort of outcome.
Can we all at least agree from now on that all violence to people and property committed by whatever political side, for whatever reason, should be condemned by all and punished by due process of law? If we can't settle on that, then there's very little agreement that can be reached on anything.
What we really need to know, bizarre though it may sound, is whether this causes a spike in the infection rate. Because if it doesn’t, it means we can scrub this lockdown and get back to normal.
If it does, we’re more comprehensively buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript. Because it means there is no way we can return to normal life until we have a vaccine.
I don't want to dismantle capitalism. I don't oppose the nuclear family. I don't want to dismantle the institutions of the British State. I think that Mark Duggan received justice. I don't support an end to deportations of illegal immigrants. None of this should be any surprise. I don't support the far left.
David Stewart (Labour, Highlands and Islands regional list) and Angus MacDonald (SNP, Falkirk East)
Overall, 16 MSPs have confirmed so far that they won't stand again next year:
SNP
Bruce Crawford (born in 1955): MSP since 1999
Mike Russell (1953), MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007
Stewart Stevenson (1946), MSP since 2001
Aileen Campbell (1980), MSP since 2007
Richard Lyle (1950), MSP since 2011
James Dornan (1953), MSP since 2011
Angus MacDonald (1963). MSP since 2011
Gail Ross (1977), MSP since 2016
ex MSP
Mark McDonald (1980), MSP since 2011
Conservatives
Ruth Davidson (1978), MSP since 2011
Margaret Mitchell (1952), MSP since 2003
Labour
Elaine Smith (1963) MSP since 1999
David Stewart (1956), MSP since 2007 (MP between 1997-2005)
Mary Fee (1954), MSP since 2011
Neil Findlay (1969), MSP since 2011
Greens
John Finnie (1956), MSP since 2011 (first election as SNP)
Pensionable age for MSPs is 65. However, they can access to pensions at 55 with a reduction in the amount received (4% for each year before 65). Retirement pension of 1/50 of final salary for each year of service.
Current annual salary is 64,470.
* Birmingham had riots between black.and Asian comminity that were sparked by a false story on a local radio station, after tensions already raised. It was why i was very annoyed at the media misreporting of the transport worker who they kept repeating died after being spat at by somebody with covid. They were still claiming this last week, when an investigation found no evidence of spitting and the individual involved in the altercation was tested for covid and never had it.
As an estimate Id guess its in for 10-30 new infections and <1 hospital admission. Those will in turn cause some new cases in the future, but its really not going to cause a mass spike observable in the data.
It is right up there with 'I was only obeying orders'.
The others I won’t go bail for...
But someone possessing cannabis for their own use is the same as someone possessing cannabis with the intention of sharing it with their girlfriend
I will concede that when you get to the extremes there is not much to pick between them but the association people try to make between the Nazis and Socialism is extremely tenuous given Hitler's view of proper socialists and their ilk.
Breaking the law is illegal but neither right nor wrong. If the law, if the orders, are wrong then is breaking it right or wrong? It's a very old philosophical question. Socrates, Plato and Thomas Aquinas and many more have all discussed the rights and wrongs of this. The idea that law is right in and of itself is the basis of "only following orders"
There are nine in the Welsh assembly - one each for the Tories and Liberal Demcorats, two from Plaid, one who used to be Plaid, and four from Labour.
As I said earlier, they've made a name that virtue signallers can't bring themselves to criticise no matter what they do. Well played to them for fooling the silly old sods.
Wanting to stop celebrating certain people isn't the same as erasing history.
Now, hopefully our frightened Government will be paying attention both to all of this and what's happened in other European economies that have started to unshutter ahead of us, and will dump the wretched two metre rule for outdoor settings, ideally immediately. That'll help a lot of hospitality businesses that have decent amounts of outdoor space, and should allow attractions like theme parks, historic monuments and gardens to operate at something not too far off normal capacity.
None of this, however, means that the outlook for what might be far more risky activities in enclosed spaces is any less uncertain. I remain hopeful that the more optimistic theories about natural resistance amongst the population or partial immunity conferred by previous infection with common cold coronaviruses could turn out to be true, but for the time being I think ministers are justified in being a bit more cautious about indoor activities.
Hopefully what will happen next, assuming that there are no nasty surprises from the health stats for the rest of the month, is that we can have restaurants at least back on July 4th - preferably with a 1m rule outdoors, even if the Government feels that 2m has to be stuck to indoors for the time being. If the disease still doesn't spike after that then maybe they can go for 1m indoors as well at the end of July, plan for 1m on public transport a couple of weeks after that if there's still no spike in caseload, and also tell the schools to start preparing on that basis for September. That'll allow something much closer to normality to resume, and perhaps by the Autumn the case load will be low enough and we'll have enough information about the disease to be able to manage it in a less disruptive way until it's beaten.
I am very much against the culture of leaking that seems to have got out of hand in recent years
If I jump in front of a car to sue them for damages, or if I jump in front of a car because I want to save a child are they same thing? Are they equally right or wrong?
It then follows logically that anyone against Against Bad Things must automatically be in favour of bad things themselves...
The National Audit Office Said:
"Between 17 March and 15 April, around 25,000 people were discharged from hospitals into care homes, compared with around 35,000 people in the same period in 2019. Due to government policy at the time, not all patients were tested for COVID-19 before discharge, with priority given to patients with symptoms."
https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/readying-the-nhs-and-adult-social-care-in-england-for-covid-19/
The Daily Telegraph said:
"25,000 patients discharged into care homes without coronavirus tests at height of crisis
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/11/25000-patients-discharged-care-homes-without-coronavirus-tests/
The Guardian said:
"Watchdog also confirms 25,000 hospital patients were sent to care homes before testing became routine"
"Health unions and senior MPs have been deeply concerned by the NAO findings, which also confirmed that 25,000 hospital patients were discharged to care homes at the height of the pandemic before testing became routine."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/12/government-ignored-warning-to-stockpile-ppe-as-covid-19-spread
The BBC said:
"around 25,000 patients were discharged into care homes without being tested for Coronavirus at the height of the pandemic. That is according to a report by the National Audit Office..."
All of them - the whole bloody lot - add a prejudicial assumption about the proportion of patients that were not tested, which is very different to the original.
A huge part of the problem. No thinking. No nuance. No care for precision.
At least the Beeboids got their nuts roasted:
https://twitter.com/jonthegreener/status/1271407011184418816
If two people break the same law they should be treated the same way.
It’s called equality before the law and it is an absolutely fundamental principle.
Mike was saying that if you are “anti-racist” you should be let off because you “are more in the right”
What most anti-racists are asking for is perfectly reasonable yet the consensus opinion on here has been to consistently misrepresent it and conflate it with the extreme left wing groups that leech onto it. You have had the patience to consistently break that down and expose simple truths like the one above.
https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1271872653889081344
And I am not interested in moral equivalence. That is just you looking for justification for your hypocrisy. If you break the law then you should be prosecuted for it not lauded.
Jackie Baillie (Lab)
Bruce Crawford (SNP) * retiring
Roseanna Cunningham (SNP)
Fergus Ewing (SNP)
Linda Fabiani (SNP)
Murdo Fraser (Con)
Kenneth Gibson (SNP)
Christine Grahame (SNP)
Fiona Hyslop (SNP)
Johann Lamont (Lab)
Richard Lochhead (SNP). * technically not continous because of the few weeks in between he resigned the list seat to contest Moray by-election
Lewis Macdonald (Lab)
Ken Macintosh (Lab)
Michael Matheson (SNP)
Alex Neil (SNP)
Nicola Sturgeon (SNP)
John Swinney (SNP)
Sandra White (SNP)
with non continuous service
Sarah Boyack (Lab)
Mike Russell (SNP) * retiring
Rhoda Grant (Lab)
Iain Gray (Lab)
Pauline McNeill (Lab)
Gil Paterson (SNP)
Elaine Smith (Lab) * retiring
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1271874013845811200?s=19
Edit: at least the Guardian one is slightly nuanced, but still implies the whole lot weren't tested.
If one hits the US it would be preferable if the country had a proper president rather than Trump.
If you hit someone on the head with a hammer because they are passing by vs you hit someone on the head with a hammer because they are stealing candy from a baby it is up to the judge to determine an appropriate sentence.
However, I wonder if there will be many left in Wales after next year. Dafydd Elis Thomas will not be standing again, I presume Jane Hutt won’t be either, and Kirsty Williams faces a real fight to hold her seat.
The fact you continue to defend them does you great discredit.
https://twitter.com/Tom_Norm/status/1271832403070377986?s=19
I fear a return to race based gangs hunting each out people.
And it distracts from a possible attempted murder.
It may be better to get some time out during the summer, just in case it gets worse again as cold and flu season returns.
The difference is that those opposed to racism have more right on their side than this lot - and that's something you never seem to acknowledge.
I can acknowledge something as both right and illegal. I can also say the right thing done illegally should be punished because of equality under the law. Can you?
These violent counter-protesters are often part of “antifa” (short for “antifascist”), a loose collection of groups, networks and individuals who believe in active, aggressive opposition to far right-wing movements. Their ideology is rooted in the assumption that the Nazi party would never have been able to come to power in Germany if people had more aggressively fought them in the streets in the 1920s and 30s. Most antifa come from the anarchist movement or from the far left, though since the 2016 presidential election, some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks...
...Another concern is the misapplication of the label “antifa” to include all counter-protesters, rather than limiting it to those who proactively seek physical confrontations with their perceived fascist adversaries. It is critical to understand how antifa fit within the larger counter-protest efforts. Doing so allows law enforcement to focus their resources on the minority who engage in violence without curtailing the civil rights of the majority of peaceful individuals who just want their voices to be heard...
... That said, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between the antifa and the white supremacist groups they oppose. Antifa reject racism but use unacceptable tactics. White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate ethnic minorities, and undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone. To date, there have not been any known antifa-related murders... (emphasis all mine)
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-antifa
There is, as the ADL says, no moral equivalence between Antifa and the far right. I’m no Communist, but if it came to it in 1930s Berlin, it’s the Communists I’d root for. As the man you love to venerate said after the invasion of the Soviet Union “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.”