Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashing statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
You’re crediting Boris with far too much thinking.
I bet it comes down to just one thing: he can’t be arsed.
That surely if so is a good thing?
Tempers have been flared over this in the past few days but after taking some deep breathes and calming down, frankly all this is a distraction - and if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom isn't getting bogged down in it then that's a good thing. This is and should be beneath him frankly.
This is an issue for Councillors and Mayors at most, not the Prime Minister. His priorities should be COVID and Brexit - that is enough for anyone's plate without adding statues.
Plus since what statues go up or down is a matter for locals via Councils or Mayors, what could the PM even do? And if he does get involved then Labour Councillors or Mayors choose to do the opposite should he centralise their decision making to Whitehall? Should Keir Starmer if he became a future PM determine what's up in Tory Councils?
The rest of us can squabble over statues, though I want to take a day off doing so. The Prime Minister should have better priorities for his efforts that suit his office better.
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashing statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
I would add that I think the Tories will win big over this, they just need to hold their nerve and keep their anger in check, and keep aloof from the likely Tommy Robinson/Nigel Farage protests. Boris could do with talking a bit more, if he is really ill then he should take more time off.
Is this like when they were going to win big over Dom once the public understood how he was looking after the best interests of his child and saw how the poor soul was being persecuted in his own home? There were so many pish defences of the mega cranium that it's all a bit of a blur, but I'm sure i saw that one on here.
I'm seeing quite a lot of criticism of the Government on here by PB Tories.
Could it be all PB Tories aren't the same?
Impossible.
Perhaps they are running on later (or earlier) versions of ToryBot ™ ?
If TM stands for Theresa May, perhaps.
Richard Nabavi has been running an old version of ToryBot TM that hasn't been updated for some time.
Read your manifesto-ette just now. Excellent. Don't agree with every point but some thinking needs to be done. Of course the irony is that with a stronger and more interested leader, this is a role that DCummings could have played in the expectation that 2/7th of what he came up with was binned. Perhaps it is also what Cummings wanted with his misfit approach.
All good, except that we have a wounded puppy for a PM who is steamrollered rather than leading. Both before he caught the virus and certainly now that he has had it.
The only issue I would say about your list is about splitting health into Covid and NHS. I think the fights over essentially or at least largely the same resources would be very tricky with two departments. Some kind of oversight (committee?) would be sensible to manage the claims of each policy stack.
Thanks I appreciate that.
Yes, an NHS within the NHS would be an expensive order. However, we have to view it within the context that there will be a torrent of unfunded public money being spent for the foreseeable future, much of it on just keeping people in work. Within that, re-opening and re-purposing a number of local NHS hospitals looks sensible, constructive, and is likely to be popular.
It would be silly not to recognise that Boris is not weakened, physically and reputationally. However, as I mentioned, most successful PM's benefit from a slick presentational team. Blair did, Cameron did, Thatcher did. When the wheels come off the team, the wheels come off the PM.
Its also possible that the virus is becoming slightly less harmful as it adapts to its human host. Killing the host is not optimal as a survival strategy.
This is cases, not fatalities.
Yes, but if the symptoms become milder/more asymptomatic the number of recorded cases will fall.
I guess I was thinking at it from the other end. If a disease is too fatal it'll reduce its prevalence, so making it milder will increase it.
A possible scenario is that this becomes another flu like illness. A few days off work at worst for most of us (with many cases of our immune system just throwing it off) but potentially lethal to the elderly, frail and co-morbid. What we do about shielding etc in such a scenario is not straightforward.
It would be a return to plan A - keeping the vulnerable shielded while allowing everyone else to gain immunity.
Its ironic that we are debating this stuff on the day a black woman was convicted f trafficking eleven African children to use as her personal slaves (BBC reports).
A case black lives matter seem to have curiously overlooked.
But the saving grace is that you haven't.
Are there any other instances (modern or ancient) of black people being cruel to other black people that need to be ironically brought to people's attention?
Sure there are shedloads, they were involved with British in the trade and seemingly still doing it. Woke liberals do not want to see or hear such things in their blinkered world. Maybe fit them better to complain about modern slavery rather than whinging on about 200-300 years ago.
Of course there are shedloads. People of all stripes are and always have been eminently capable of being cruel to other people of all stripes.
Can't see how that detracts from the need to eliminate anti-black racism. Or from recognizing the role of colonialism in fostering it.
It seems that bending the knee to wanton vandalism and cultural destruction may not be playing all that well for Labour after all...
As opposed to the pointless wanton vandalism to international institutions by Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. I suspect Vladimir likes theirs rather more than the ravings of a few lefties in Bristol
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
Its also possible that the virus is becoming slightly less harmful as it adapts to its human host. Killing the host is not optimal as a survival strategy.
This is cases, not fatalities.
Yes, but if the symptoms become milder/more asymptomatic the number of recorded cases will fall.
I guess I was thinking at it from the other end. If a disease is too fatal it'll reduce its prevalence, so making it milder will increase it.
A possible scenario is that this becomes another flu like illness. A few days off work at worst for most of us (with many cases of our immune system just throwing it off) but potentially lethal to the elderly, frail and co-morbid. What we do about shielding etc in such a scenario is not straightforward.
It would be a return to plan A - keeping them vulnerable shielded while allowing everyone else to gain immunity.
As a Tory Councillor (and one who sat on a Planning Committee for 11 glorious years), I'm sorry but Robert Jenrick has to go. Richard Desmond paid £12000 to sit next to him at a fundraising dinner, lobbied hard about his application. Although Jenrick says he couldn't talk about it (quite right too) a few days later he overrules the Planning Inspector (whom he himself - legally at least - appointed) who concurred with the Council that the application be refused. That is an extremely rare occurrence.
But then it all gets much much darker. Faced by a judicial review, Jenrick at once revokes the permission he's just granted so that all correspondence relating to it does not have to be published. And today he decides not to appear in the Commons to answer questions about his own personal actions.
It is simply not good enough. A Councillor in a similar position would very possibly face prosecution. He just walks away as if nothing had happened. A disgrace - he should be fired.
I completely agree. The £12k is really neither here nor there and it is a silly distraction to suggest that had an impact but to allow yourself to be lobbied, or even speak to a party when that decision is on your desk is just beyond stupid.
Its ironic that we are debating this stuff on the day a black woman was convicted f trafficking eleven African children to use as her personal slaves (BBC reports).
A case black lives matter seem to have curiously overlooked.
But the saving grace is that you haven't.
Are there any other instances (modern or ancient) of black people being cruel to other black people that need to be ironically brought to people's attention?
I believe a recently deceased black person in the news was (checks notes) 'let of the hook' for being cruel to another black person. Makes you think, eh?
well at least they show consistency - like Churchill he was a moral giant who had deep personal flaws - the statue thing seems to be like people suddenly discovering people are human and the geopolitical context they operated in was complex and it's making their heads explode.
Perhaps the medics will define a new mental illness - statuephobia?
Woke me up before you go-go Dodgy statues surely are no-no
I'm seeing quite a lot of criticism of the Government on here by PB Tories.
Could it be all PB Tories aren't the same?
Impossible.
Perhaps they are running on later (or earlier) versions of ToryBot ™ ?
If TM stands for Theresa May, perhaps.
Richard Nabavi has been running an old version of ToryBot TM that hasn't been updated for some time.
Read your manifesto-ette just now. Excellent. Don't agree with every point but some thinking needs to be done. Of course the irony is that with a stronger and more interested leader, this is a role that DCummings could have played in the expectation that 2/7th of what he came up with was binned. Perhaps it is also what Cummings wanted with his misfit approach.
All good, except that we have a wounded puppy for a PM who is steamrollered rather than leading. Both before he caught the virus and certainly now that he has had it.
The only issue I would say about your list is about splitting health into Covid and NHS. I think the fights over essentially or at least largely the same resources would be very tricky with two departments. Some kind of oversight (committee?) would be sensible to manage the claims of each policy stack.
Thanks I appreciate that.
Yes, an NHS within the NHS would be an expensive order. However, we have to view it within the context that there will be a torrent of unfunded public money being spent for the foreseeable future, much of it on just keeping people in work. Within that, re-opening and re-purposing a number of local NHS hospitals looks sensible, constructive, and is likely to be popular.
It would be silly not to recognise that Boris is not weakened, physically and reputationally. However, as I mentioned, most successful PM's benefit from a slick presentational team. Blair did, Cameron did, Thatcher did. When the wheels come off the team, the wheels come off the PM.
Yes I think that is right. Of course this also represents the tip of the iceberg. As you note, some bold thinking for the undoubted, necessary and huge fiscal stimulus is required and while they are about it, there is an opportunity to restructure any number of elements of society.
That said, coming out of one crisis the overwhelming likelihood is that they will become more timid rather than bolder.
I think you read far too much into one poll. I am sure you are aware you need to look at general trends. The overall trend is the guy you were so enthusiastic about making Conservative leader is slowly and surely killing the party with his incompetence. It will take a while for the polls to catch up, but catch up they will, because Boris Johnson is gradually becoming as much of a joke at home as he is abroad
I think you read far too much into one poll. I am sure you are aware you need to look at general trends. The overall trend is the guy you were so enthusiastic about making Conservative leader is slowly and surely killing the party with his incompetence. It will take a while for the polls to catch up, but catch up they will, because Boris Johnson is gradually becoming as much of a joke at home as he is abroad
Boris wasn't previously though of as a joke in the UK? Interesting.
42 - 36 feels about right. The public aren't cooing over the Tories like they were whilst Johnson was in the ICU, Cummings saw to that. But the statue nonsense has provided a sharp reminder about the left. Healthily all to play for with Labour led by sensible Starmer.
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
His fat little body must be quivering with dread at such a terrible prospect!
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
His fat little body must be quivering with dread at such a terrible prospect!
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashing statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
I would add that I think the Tories will win big over this, they just need to hold their nerve and keep their anger in check, and keep aloof from the likely Tommy Robinson/Nigel Farage protests. Boris could do with talking a bit more, if he is really ill then he should take more time off.
Is this like when they were going to win big over Dom once the public understood how he was looking after the best interests of his child and saw how the poor soul was being persecuted in his own home? There were so many pish defences of the mega cranium that it's all a bit of a blur, but I'm sure i saw that one on here.
The Dom thing was a misjudgement. But their judgement is otherwise good. They've been working the Brexit culture wars to their political advantage, Cummings is part of that. The culture war over the statues is something different.
Does that mean that the 75% of your posts of the last month relating to that irrelevance can be safely ignored? I guess folk can make their own minds up about the remaining 25%.
I was talking to Ishmael. I'm afraid I don't know much about haggis-themed poetry.
p.s. I did notice you picked up on my mention of Visigoths, so at least you got something out of them...
Haggis-themed.
Good one, positively Juvenal-esque. Or a word not dissimilar anyway.
Er, one of the best-known and most frequently recited poems of the most famous Scottish poet deals luxuriously with precisely that topic. Don't blame me, blame Burns!
Golly, it appears that you do know something about haggis-themed poetry. I'm afraid my knowledge of a neigbouring culture yields nothing on the Yorkshire pudding front, my bad.
Ha! It might amuse you to know that shortly before the lockdown I bought a book of Lermontov's poetry with facing translations. It turns out that the Russian isn't that difficult - the problem is that a good chunk of the translations are written in Scots, and some of that is perfectly incomprehensible...
not if you understandthe Scots language though
I know, Malcolm, that was kind of the joke
What kind of Scots is it, by the way, as a matter of interest? If it is Doric then I can sympathise with you - it's very unfamiliar to the English ear.
Hold on, let me give you a sample:
Aiblins ayont the Caucasus wa, Ah'll frae yer Pashas derne awa, Frae thae gleg een that aye see aa, Thae lugs that miss naethin ava.
The last line's easily guessable, but at first glance the rest appears, to quote a famous phrase, 'as if one madman had translated another'
On the contrary, it's perfectly comprehensible Lowlands Scots - no worse than, say, Barnes's Dorset poems.
Perhaps beyond the Wall of Caucasus I'll hide from your secret Pashas, from those quick/bright eyes that always see all, the ears that miss nothing at all.
The one thing that niggles is 'derne' which I don't recognise - it may just be my memory but a quick check of the DSL Dictionar o the Scots Leid/Dictionary of the Scots Language suggests it is an archaic word indeed.
And it may be my imagination but there's something slightly off to my ear. If my fellowScots on PB confirm this then I wonder if it was written partly from a dictionary by a Russian?
I think you read far too much into one poll. I am sure you are aware you need to look at general trends. The overall trend is the guy you were so enthusiastic about making Conservative leader is slowly and surely killing the party with his incompetence. It will take a while for the polls to catch up, but catch up they will, because Boris Johnson is gradually becoming as much of a joke at home as he is abroad
Boris wasn't previously though of as a joke in the UK? Interesting.
I guess less of a joke than Corbyn, who was also a clown, but unintentionally so, and was clearly less appealing in the circus ring of public opinion
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashing statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
I would add that I think the Tories will win big over this, they just need to hold their nerve and keep their anger in check, and keep aloof from the likely Tommy Robinson/Nigel Farage protests. Boris could do with talking a bit more, if he is really ill then he should take more time off.
One thing that does worry me (and I absolutely 100% want Baden-Powell to stay up) is that if it’s defeated it’s now rather likely you’ll get Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage visiting there to pay homage in a way they would never have done before. Ever. If it does come down they’ll go there to martyr themselves near it.
That’s what happens in a culture war: it brings out the idiots on both sides and the moderate gets squeezed out.
Farage and Robinson "take a knee" before the statue of Baden-Powell. Thank you for an excellent mental image. God, can you imagine.
Perhaps followed by an outdoor screening on a HUGE screen of "Gone".
Seriously though, can we not just take a look at some of these dodgy statues and take the worst ones down? Is that such a terrible thing?
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
His fat little body must be quivering with dread at such a terrible prospect!
Quite an unpleasant comment.
Aside from the insult Boris can't afford to lose the likes of Philip now, he's lost a too many other supporters. The only reason I'd vote Tory tomorrow in the event of an election is because I don't trust Labour on Brexit. Once that's done and there is a deal (or not) then a lot of Boris' support falls away to the undecided column.
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Poole is not very woke. The Bournemouth Echo comments and poll are a landslide victory for keeping it. Unforunately you cannot protect every statue 24/7, though thankfully the Victorians and Edwardians built things properly. I suspect a few more will fall but outside of the Corbynistas I'd say there is little appetite for erasing the past.
As a Conservative leaning voter and student of history its straightforward for me. For some liberals it probably creates a dilemma.
It isn't the politics its the method. I am more than happy with statues being removed after discussion, debate, consensus and votes.
The mob cannot have its way. Ever.
That's a recipe for endless red tape and no change. Better to do like sometimes happens in a company where gung ho management consultants have been let loose. Make every statue reapply for its position. So it needs to make the case - assuming empty plinth - why it should be placed there.
Succeeds? OK, stays up.
Fails? Fired. Taken down and replaced with something different that CAN make a good case.
Real debate leading to real change. Or not - since we cannot know until we do it.
Wonderful, blue-skies thinking. Let's apply this approach to taxation: every tax will have to re-apply for its position, and if it doesn't make a watertight case to be kept, it will be scrapped.
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
His fat little body must be quivering with dread at such a terrible prospect!
Quite an unpleasant comment.
Aside from the insult Boris can't afford to lose the likes of Philip now, he's lost a too many other supporters. The only reason I'd vote Tory tomorrow in the event of an election is because I don't trust Labour on Brexit. Once that's done and there is a deal (or not) then a lot of Boris' support falls away to the undecided column.
Interesting point. For you his purpose was to deliver Brexit, for many others it was to defeat a Marxist terrorist sympathiser. As folk seem to be catching up with the fact that these were the only two points in voting for Johnson, it seems likely to be an historic reversal of fortunes at the next election. But then, as Mr Wilson said, a week is a long time...
Its ironic that we are debating this stuff on the day a black woman was convicted f trafficking eleven African children to use as her personal slaves (BBC reports).
A case black lives matter seem to have curiously overlooked.
But the saving grace is that you haven't.
Are there any other instances (modern or ancient) of black people being cruel to other black people that need to be ironically brought to people's attention?
I believe a recently deceased black person in the news was (checks notes) 'let of the hook' for being cruel to another black person. Makes you think, eh?
I just wish people would say what they mean instead of all these arch little "hints". Stop beating about the bush, I say. If someone thinks anti-black racism is a self-serving invention to excuse and explain away problems which are almost entirely self-inflicted, well go for it.
I think the mechanism and process of social media is what needs regulating, not the content (or at least not beyond the general law already).
If you just focus on the content it turbofuels conspiracy theories you can't control and makes it worse.
People should be free to show the rest of us that they are idiots.
I agree but I think that the pernicious effects of social media are such that they’ve now become a problem for society more broadly, and thus the mechanisms may need regulating a bit more.
I haven’t worked out how yet. It’s not an easy one.
The problem as far as I understand it is that the best effects of social media flow from the same mechanisms as the worst effects.
So, it is much easier to share ideas for knitting patterns, baking recipes, support for rare medical conditions, or more esoteric interests, with like-minded individuals, but it's also easier for people with a shared interest in conspiracy theories or have hatred to find validation from people who agree with them.
I suppose that - before the web - we were able to rely on other people: editors, journalists, etc, to quality control information before it was passed on. That had negative effects as well as positive ones.
I think what's left of the curated media could help by not amplifying the worst excesses of social media - but we all have a responsibility to be critical of information that we consider passing on.
Update from Poole (I've been around the statue this morning) - not being taken away today, council getting flack from all angles. The public overwhelmingly backing it staying.
Deputy leader of the council is the ward councillor. I suspect he realises the reputational damage this is doing.
We are not far away from pitched battles between statue defenders and statue removers.
The government should declare that NO statues are going down until we have had a proper debate about this very important matter and some votes on it.
Any statues that are taken down will be replaced immediately.
At risk statues will have extra CCTV installed.
Boris can't be arsed.
Nah. Hes not rushing in for good reasons.
The calculation runs something like this. The protests are the dying howl of Corbynism. Lost the general election, lost the leadership election, go around smashi'ng statutes of Churchill and Baden Powell and demand that the police are defunded.
The public did not take the problems in universities seriously until now. People were too blinded by their liberal sympathies to realise what the left had become. Now it is all plain to see.
The last thing you want to do is give the protestors what they want: a culture war or even better, a race war. You can just let it stew for a while and use the public resentment and interest to tackle longstanding and poorly understood problems.
Statues are nothing in the long game.
Cummings may have thought about these things, but Boris hasn't.
I guarantee that Boris is thinking about this, probably nothing but this.
I hope not! I hope he's thinking about COVID19, lifting the lockdown, Brexit negotiations, the future of our economy and more. If Boris is thinking about nothing but a culture war then he would lose all my respect and be just like Trump.
His fat little body must be quivering with dread at such a terrible prospect!
Quite an unpleasant comment.
Aside from the insult Boris can't afford to lose the likes of Philip now, he's lost a too many other supporters. The only reason I'd vote Tory tomorrow in the event of an election is because I don't trust Labour on Brexit. Once that's done and there is a deal (or not) then a lot of Boris' support falls away to the undecided column.
Interesting point. For you his purpose was to deliver Brexit, for many others it was to defeat a Marxist terrorist sympathiser. As folk seem to be catching up with the fact that these were the only two points in voting for Johnson, it seems likely to be an historic reversal of fortunes at the next election. But then, as Mr Wilson said, a week is a long time...
Over 70% of Tory voters do not want the transition period extended, so unlikely
I think you read far too much into one poll. I am sure you are aware you need to look at general trends. The overall trend is the guy you were so enthusiastic about making Conservative leader is slowly and surely killing the party with his incompetence. It will take a while for the polls to catch up, but catch up they will, because Boris Johnson is gradually becoming as much of a joke at home as he is abroad
The overall trend is the Tories still comfortably over 40% and Labour just moved up from the early 30s to the mid 30s since the last general election mainly thanks to LDs
Why should that be a surprise? What is going on is that they acted early, so contained the disease and could come out early, with the measures taken being effective. eg. In Denmark, the first confirmed death was on March 14th, but lockdown started before then on 13th March. Large mass gatherings were banned from 5th March.
Compare and contrast with the UK, where we didn't lock down until 3 weeks after the first confirmed death.
The question isn't why their cases went down, but why they haven't gone back up.
That is what concerned Sage with a premature lockdown: that the virus would resurge postlockdown.
I wonder if perhaps the virus is less virulent than had been assumed which is why we are not seeing the second wave.
The simple explanation is that it's now summer. People are meeting outside. There are still restrictions in most places on most of the things that are most risky - loud events inside. There is better testing now so that those carrying the virus can be isolated and reduce transmission.
Does that mean that the 75% of your posts of the last month relating to that irrelevance can be safely ignored? I guess folk can make their own minds up about the remaining 25%.
I was talking to Ishmael. I'm afraid I don't know much about haggis-themed poetry.
p.s. I did notice you picked up on my mention of Visigoths, so at least you got something out of them...
Haggis-themed.
Good one, positively Juvenal-esque. Or a word not dissimilar anyway.
Er, one of the best-known and most frequently recited poems of the most famous Scottish poet deals luxuriously with precisely that topic. Don't blame me, blame Burns!
Golly, it appears that you do know something about haggis-themed poetry. I'm afraid my knowledge of a neigbouring culture yields nothing on the Yorkshire pudding front, my bad.
Ha! It might amuse you to know that shortly before the lockdown I bought a book of Lermontov's poetry with facing translations. It turns out that the Russian isn't that difficult - the problem is that a good chunk of the translations are written in Scots, and some of that is perfectly incomprehensible...
not if you understandthe Scots language though
I know, Malcolm, that was kind of the joke
I knew that as well , not surprising mind you given how big fans Russians are of Burns
Does that mean that the 75% of your posts of the last month relating to that irrelevance can be safely ignored? I guess folk can make their own minds up about the remaining 25%.
I was talking to Ishmael. I'm afraid I don't know much about haggis-themed poetry.
p.s. I did notice you picked up on my mention of Visigoths, so at least you got something out of them...
Haggis-themed.
Good one, positively Juvenal-esque. Or a word not dissimilar anyway.
Er, one of the best-known and most frequently recited poems of the most famous Scottish poet deals luxuriously with precisely that topic. Don't blame me, blame Burns!
Golly, it appears that you do know something about haggis-themed poetry. I'm afraid my knowledge of a neigbouring culture yields nothing on the Yorkshire pudding front, my bad.
Ha! It might amuse you to know that shortly before the lockdown I bought a book of Lermontov's poetry with facing translations. It turns out that the Russian isn't that difficult - the problem is that a good chunk of the translations are written in Scots, and some of that is perfectly incomprehensible...
not if you understandthe Scots language though
I know, Malcolm, that was kind of the joke
What kind of Scots is it, by the way, as a matter of interest? If it is Doric then I can sympathise with you - it's very unfamiliar to the English ear.
Scots is the language, if Burns it would be lowland Scots, Doric is a dialect of it from North east Scotland.
I think that probably, the best thing would be for Cummings to have his operation now. It avoids an apology or him being sacked, it humanises Cummings, it makes him seem rather heroic in some lights. And it gets him out without getting him out.
For me, the damage of the Cummings affair only was only really brought home by the sense that Boris could not offer any criticism of the BLM riots from a public health standpoint (should he have wished to do so), as even Patel was able to.
I do not want Number 10 to be taken over by a remoaner cabal anymore than any other right thinking leaver, but there must be someone that Cummings can nominate to look after things - if there isn't, it doesn't say much for his succession planning.
FPT - if Starmer's polling that well in Scotland then a Labour majority might be possible.
Scottish unionists might flip Tory to Labour to protect it, so he could get 20-25 seats in Scotland (Tories down to 2-3 again).
He'd still have to do a Cameron and swipe 100+ in England though. Seems insurmountable but the electorate is so volatile these days I could see it happening if he stays moderate and Boris totally botches the economic recovery.
LOL, fantasy politics, cuckoo.
Do you ever justify the shite you write on here? At least your co-nationalists do give justification to their views. You are just like one of those Corbynista yobs that shouts and yells. Anyway I bet you like a bit of fantasy. Most nationalism is fantasy; a bit of dressing up; a bit of pretending inconvenient history isn't truth (e.g that Scots weren't a major driving force in Empire), a bit of pretending that your own nationality is in some way exceptional. Go on Mr. Angry, show us what a real nationalist is all about eh? Instead of shouting abuse, do try and give us a real intellectual angle on how you see nationalism (an immoral political philosophy of yesteryear thankfully) has a place in the modern world? Can you do it without being a stereotypical yobbish nationalist? No, thought not.
@Nigel_Foremain The cockroach crawls out from under his rock. If you had any capacity to understand written words you moronic halfwitted dumpling, you would have understood that the chances of Labour winning 20-30 seats in Scotland is more unlikely than me being the next pope. Back under your rock where you belong.
Its ironic that we are debating this stuff on the day a black woman was convicted f trafficking eleven African children to use as her personal slaves (BBC reports).
A case black lives matter seem to have curiously overlooked.
But the saving grace is that you haven't.
Are there any other instances (modern or ancient) of black people being cruel to other black people that need to be ironically brought to people's attention?
Sure there are shedloads, they were involved with British in the trade and seemingly still doing it. Woke liberals do not want to see or hear such things in their blinkered world. Maybe fit them better to complain about modern slavery rather than whinging on about 200-300 years ago.
Of course there are shedloads. People of all stripes are and always have been eminently capable of being cruel to other people of all stripes.
Can't see how that detracts from the need to eliminate anti-black racism. Or from recognizing the role of colonialism in fostering it.
It deflects, yes, but it does not detract.
For sure, however some do seem to be a bit myopic , they don't all have halo's.
Does that mean that the 75% of your posts of the last month relating to that irrelevance can be safely ignored? I guess folk can make their own minds up about the remaining 25%.
I was talking to Ishmael. I'm afraid I don't know much about haggis-themed poetry.
p.s. I did notice you picked up on my mention of Visigoths, so at least you got something out of them...
Haggis-themed.
Good one, positively Juvenal-esque. Or a word not dissimilar anyway.
Er, one of the best-known and most frequently recited poems of the most famous Scottish poet deals luxuriously with precisely that topic. Don't blame me, blame Burns!
Golly, it appears that you do know something about haggis-themed poetry. I'm afraid my knowledge of a neigbouring culture yields nothing on the Yorkshire pudding front, my bad.
Ha! It might amuse you to know that shortly before the lockdown I bought a book of Lermontov's poetry with facing translations. It turns out that the Russian isn't that difficult - the problem is that a good chunk of the translations are written in Scots, and some of that is perfectly incomprehensible...
not if you understandthe Scots language though
I know, Malcolm, that was kind of the joke
What kind of Scots is it, by the way, as a matter of interest? If it is Doric then I can sympathise with you - it's very unfamiliar to the English ear.
Hold on, let me give you a sample:
Aiblins ayont the Caucasus wa, Ah'll frae yer Pashas derne awa, Frae thae gleg een that aye see aa, Thae lugs that miss naethin ava.
The last line's easily guessable, but at first glance the rest appears, to quote a famous phrase, 'as if one madman had translated another'
On the contrary, it's perfectly comprehensible Lowlands Scots - no worse than, say, Barnes's Dorset poems.
Perhaps beyond the Wall of Caucasus I'll hide from your secret Pashas, from those quick/bright eyes that always see all, the ears that miss nothing at all.
The one thing that niggles is 'derne' which I don't recognise - it may just be my memory but a quick check of the DSL Dictionar o the Scots Leid/Dictionary of the Scots Language suggests it is an archaic word indeed.
And it may be my imagination but there's something slightly off to my ear. If my fellowScots on PB confirm this then I wonder if it was written partly from a dictionary by a Russian?
At some point soon pb's Conservatives are going to blame the dead for dying so prolifically and painting the government in a poor light. Anything rather than look at why Britain has done so terribly by any sensible international comparison.
Everyone remember the hoo ha about Lockerbie bomber Al Megrahi being released from prison because he only had 3 months supposedly to live - well............
Sikora's report concluded that Megrahi had only three months to live due to terminal prostate cancer. In fact, Megrahi died on 20 May 2012, two years and nine months after his release.
Comments
Tempers have been flared over this in the past few days but after taking some deep breathes and calming down, frankly all this is a distraction - and if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom isn't getting bogged down in it then that's a good thing. This is and should be beneath him frankly.
This is an issue for Councillors and Mayors at most, not the Prime Minister. His priorities should be COVID and Brexit - that is enough for anyone's plate without adding statues.
Plus since what statues go up or down is a matter for locals via Councils or Mayors, what could the PM even do? And if he does get involved then Labour Councillors or Mayors choose to do the opposite should he centralise their decision making to Whitehall? Should Keir Starmer if he became a future PM determine what's up in Tory Councils?
The rest of us can squabble over statues, though I want to take a day off doing so. The Prime Minister should have better priorities for his efforts that suit his office better.
(Joking, of course.. that will have had zero impact here)
Yes, an NHS within the NHS would be an expensive order. However, we have to view it within the context that there will be a torrent of unfunded public money being spent for the foreseeable future, much of it on just keeping people in work. Within that, re-opening and re-purposing a number of local NHS hospitals looks sensible, constructive, and is likely to be popular.
It would be silly not to recognise that Boris is not weakened, physically and reputationally. However, as I mentioned, most successful PM's benefit from a slick presentational team. Blair did, Cameron did, Thatcher did. When the wheels come off the team, the wheels come off the PM.
Can't see how that detracts from the need to eliminate anti-black racism. Or from recognizing the role of colonialism in fostering it.
It deflects, yes, but it does not detract.
*I am.
Dodgy statues surely are no-no
That said, coming out of one crisis the overwhelming likelihood is that they will become more timid rather than bolder.
What they need is a few engineers. Apply some rules of thumb, order of magnitude estimates and 'sniff test' reviews.
We would have locked down in 5 minutes.
Healthily all to play for with Labour led by sensible Starmer.
But their judgement is otherwise good.
They've been working the Brexit culture wars to their political advantage, Cummings is part of that.
The culture war over the statues is something different.
On the contrary, it's perfectly comprehensible Lowlands Scots - no worse than, say, Barnes's Dorset poems.
Perhaps beyond the Wall of Caucasus
I'll hide from your secret Pashas,
from those quick/bright eyes that always see all,
the ears that miss nothing at all.
The one thing that niggles is 'derne' which I don't recognise - it may just be my memory but a quick check of the DSL Dictionar o the Scots Leid/Dictionary of the Scots Language suggests it is an archaic word indeed.
And it may be my imagination but there's something slightly off to my ear. If my fellowScots on PB confirm this then I wonder if it was written partly from a dictionary by a Russian?
https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/derne_vforward Lowlands Scots
http://www.scotsdictionaries.org.uk/
Perhaps followed by an outdoor screening on a HUGE screen of "Gone".
Seriously though, can we not just take a look at some of these dodgy statues and take the worst ones down? Is that such a terrible thing?
So, it is much easier to share ideas for knitting patterns, baking recipes, support for rare medical conditions, or more esoteric interests, with like-minded individuals, but it's also easier for people with a shared interest in conspiracy theories or have hatred to find validation from people who agree with them.
I suppose that - before the web - we were able to rely on other people: editors, journalists, etc, to quality control information before it was passed on. That had negative effects as well as positive ones.
I think what's left of the curated media could help by not amplifying the worst excesses of social media - but we all have a responsibility to be critical of information that we consider passing on.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1270659501927141378?s=20
https://twitter.com/Shobbs2/status/1271059060444585989?s=19
For me, the damage of the Cummings affair only was only really brought home by the sense that Boris could not offer any criticism of the BLM riots from a public health standpoint (should he have wished to do so), as even Patel was able to.
I do not want Number 10 to be taken over by a remoaner cabal anymore than any other right thinking leaver, but there must be someone that Cummings can nominate to look after things - if there isn't, it doesn't say much for his succession planning.
The cockroach crawls out from under his rock. If you had any capacity to understand written words you moronic halfwitted dumpling, you would have understood that the chances of Labour winning 20-30 seats in Scotland is more unlikely than me being the next pope. Back under your rock where you belong.
Have the pillock army got Gandhi and the bloke who abolished slavery yet?