@MikeK What a ridiculous statement about official statistics. Time, even at your age, that you grew up.
It's being slightly ridiculous that keeps me young. Just think on this Mike. Statistics for the NHS have been wrong for years and continue to be wrong. A huge new computerised Data base was promised to remedy this but never materialised thanks to the inept company and technicians doing the job. Now the same is happening with IDS's W&P dept. I wouldn't trust the NHS with my life, how about you?
I have trusted the NHS with my life on two occasions in the past 18 years when the skill and commitment of clinicians prevented me from having a premature death. Some of those clinicians were what you would describe as immigrants.
And yet you view the system as the decisive factor rather than the skill and dedication of the clinicians and their supporting teams?
But twice as likely to be poor and two and half times as likely as to be unemployed?
Facts please!
implies:
(Citation needed)
Why not disprove it? This facts please shtick, gets old really quickly. It smacks of a low grade tutor trying to impress a third rate student.
Supposition isn't interesting to read though. I don't care what you suppose, or what the Daily Express journalist supposes for money.
So you have no clue how to go about proving him wrong, but seem to think smugly posting "facts please" adds to the discussion. It doesn't. Stop it.
I'm not sure why you think that asking someone for the reasons why they think something, is in some way avoiding debate. It's easier to prove a fact wrong if it, you know, has been mentioned.
But twice as likely to be poor and two and half times as likely as to be unemployed?
Facts please!
implies:
(Citation needed)
Why not disprove it? This facts please shtick, gets old really quickly. It smacks of a low grade tutor trying to impress a third rate student.
Supposition isn't interesting to read though. I don't care what you suppose, or what the Daily Express journalist supposes for money.
So you have no clue how to go about proving him wrong, but seem to think smugly posting "facts please" adds to the discussion. It doesn't. Stop it.
I'm not sure why you think that asking someone for the reasons why they think something, is in some way avoiding debate. It's easier to prove a fact wrong if it, you know, has been mentioned.
Do you accept that a problem with immigration is that it imports poverty? There are arguments to say that some waves of immigration have shown to be exceptionally successful and boosted the country economically, socially and culturally. But, I would argue that that is the exception, not the rule.
The Muslim and Black/Asian are interesting. If you go to deepest shires, you are bound to hear things like, "you cannot walk the streets because of those blacks" when there isn't one probably in a radius of 15 miles.
The same goes for crime figures.
What Shires are you talking about?
In my experience a lot of areas outside London are like that. It is one of those bumpkin attitudes that feeds into the the hatred of London – a rich, self-important, permissive leftie paradise that is full of immigrants and foreigners.
Hmm, absolute rubbish.
My experience is nothing like that - I have lived both in London and various places outside.
I'm not saying it is everywhere - but some places.
But twice as likely to be poor and two and half times as likely as to be unemployed?
Facts please!
implies:
(Citation needed)
You doubt?
Another quote, "Almost half of all children from ethnic minorities are in poverty."
Importing poverty.
Surely you mean "importing workers willing to work for minimum wage, and therefore improving the global competitiveness of British companies", right?
I am - of course - just being silly.
There are downsides to immigration, obviously. There are downsides to shutting yourself off to the outside world. Life is a series of choices, all of which carry advantages and disadvantages. If you are the CEO of a technology or finance company, you will be keen to keep the gates as wide open as possible, because the success of your firm depends on attracting the best talent from around the world. If, on the other hand, you are working in a low wage job, in a depressed part of the country, where there is already competition for the few opportunities around, it is unlikely you will believe your interests are best served by (any) additional immigration.
As an aside, and regarding statistics, by-and-large they are reliable. If you don't like the police figures, use the British Crime Survey. If you don't like the BCS, remember the major driver of changes in crime rate are (a) the rate of drug use by young people; (b) the 'drug of choice' by the young, and (c) the relative number of young people. Right now in both the UK and much of the developed world, there is less drug use by the young, more use of depressents rather than stimulants, and fewer young people. Even the most incompetent of police forces would expect to see crime fall. (As it has done, for example, across the US, almost irrespective of policing policy on a state-by-state basis.)
Do you accept that a problem with immigration is that it imports poverty? There are arguments to say that some waves of immigration have shown to be exceptionally successful and boosted the country economically, socially and culturally. But, I would argue that that is the exception, not the rule.
I don't think that immigration increases the problems associated with poverty - there are proportionately fewer immigrants in prison, or claiming benefits, than there are people from the UK.
Also I can't verify your Bangladeshi figure - it seems true for females from Bangladesh, but males are actually less likely to be unemployed.
CDU get Home Office, Finance, Defence, Education and Health CSU have Agricolture, Transports, Economic Cooperation & Development SPD get Foreign Affairs, Economy & Energy, Labour & Social Affairs, Justice, Family and Environment
The Junior partner always loses. CSU really is the CDU of Bavaria. Only Willy Brandt in 1970 bucked the trend.
Demonstrates that Clegg should have insisted on the Foeign Office.
CDU get Home Office, Finance, Defence, Education and Health CSU have Agricolture, Transports, Economic Cooperation & Development SPD get Foreign Affairs, Economy & Energy, Labour & Social Affairs, Justice, Family and Environment
The Junior partner always loses. CSU really is the CDU of Bavaria. Only Willy Brandt in 1970 bucked the trend.
Demonstrates that Clegg should have insisted on the Foeign Office.
Do you only think backbench Tories (and the likes of the Mail) would have been able to deal with a Lib Dem as Foreign Secretary, he'd be surrendering to the EU like the French in a war.
The Muslim and Black/Asian are interesting. If you go to deepest shires, you are bound to hear things like, "you cannot walk the streets because of those blacks" when there isn't one probably in a radius of 15 miles.
The same goes for crime figures.
What Shires are you talking about?
In my experience a lot of areas outside London are like that. It is one of those bumpkin attitudes that feeds into the the hatred of London – a rich, self-important, permissive leftie paradise that is full of immigrants and foreigners.
Hmm, absolute rubbish.
My experience is nothing like that - I have lived both in London and various places outside.
I'm not saying it is everywhere - but some places.
Do you accept that a problem with immigration is that it imports poverty? There are arguments to say that some waves of immigration have shown to be exceptionally successful and boosted the country economically, socially and culturally. But, I would argue that that is the exception, not the rule.
I don't think that immigration increases the problems associated with poverty - there are proportionately fewer immigrants in prison, or claiming benefits, than there are people from the UK.
Also I can't verify your Bangladeshi figure - it seems true for females from Bangladesh, but males are actually less likely to be unemployed.
Laughable. 38% of Bangladeshi men are not in paid employment, 84% of bangladeshi women are not in paid employment 18% of white british men are not in paid employment, 29% of white british women are not in paid employment. (source 2001 census) A more up to date set of figures (which has no gender breakdown), between ages of 25 and retirement:
White British Bangledeshi
8% 17% %not in paid work but want to work 13% 41% %not in paid work say that they do not want paid work Total not working: 21% 58%
Source: Labour force survey ons
These arent margin of errors, these arent sampling errors. These are gigantic differences, showing the impact of importing poverty.
Do you accept that a problem with immigration is that it imports poverty? There are arguments to say that some waves of immigration have shown to be exceptionally successful and boosted the country economically, socially and culturally. But, I would argue that that is the exception, not the rule.
I don't think that immigration increases the problems associated with poverty - there are proportionately fewer immigrants in prison, or claiming benefits, than there are people from the UK.
Also I can't verify your Bangladeshi figure - it seems true for females from Bangladesh, but males are actually less likely to be unemployed.
The Muslim and Black/Asian are interesting. If you go to deepest shires, you are bound to hear things like, "you cannot walk the streets because of those blacks" when there isn't one probably in a radius of 15 miles.
The same goes for crime figures.
What Shires are you talking about?
In my experience a lot of areas outside London are like that. It is one of those bumpkin attitudes that feeds into the the hatred of London – a rich, self-important, permissive leftie paradise that is full of immigrants and foreigners.
Hmm, absolute rubbish.
My experience is nothing like that - I have lived both in London and various places outside.
I'm not saying it is everywhere - but some places.
Ahh, so you have gone from "you are bound to ..."
to "lots of areas outside London are like that"
to "some places"
ie Absolute rubbish.
Is Bobajob giving it the 'I'm from London" big one again, despite living in some dull commuter suburb?
The Muslim and Black/Asian are interesting. If you go to deepest shires, you are bound to hear things like, "you cannot walk the streets because of those blacks" when there isn't one probably in a radius of 15 miles.
The same goes for crime figures.
What Shires are you talking about?
In my experience a lot of areas outside London are like that. It is one of those bumpkin attitudes that feeds into the the hatred of London – a rich, self-important, permissive leftie paradise that is full of immigrants and foreigners.
Hmm, absolute rubbish.
My experience is nothing like that - I have lived both in London and various places outside.
I'm not saying it is everywhere - but some places.
Ahh, so you have gone from "you are bound to ..."
to "lots of areas outside London are like that"
to "some places"
ie Absolute rubbish.
Think you are conflating two different posters? A lot of places outside London are like that, not all, but some. In my experience they tend to be places where the ethnic minority population is very low - it's a fear of the unknown in most cases rather than out and out hatred.
But yes other areas are much more enlightened. I probably overcooked the point slightly.
TSE is a Tory remember... they take a while to catch up with the rest of us ;-)
I met someone once who claimed that only the City of London was really London, and for this reason London had no right to claim 8 million residents. "Leeds is actually much bigger," he would say.
Do you accept that a problem with immigration is that it imports poverty? There are arguments to say that some waves of immigration have shown to be exceptionally successful and boosted the country economically, socially and culturally. But, I would argue that that is the exception, not the rule.
I don't think that immigration increases the problems associated with poverty - there are proportionately fewer immigrants in prison, or claiming benefits, than there are people from the UK.
Also I can't verify your Bangladeshi figure - it seems true for females from Bangladesh, but males are actually less likely to be unemployed.
The Muslim and Black/Asian are interesting. If you go to deepest shires, you are bound to hear things like, "you cannot walk the streets because of those blacks" when there isn't one probably in a radius of 15 miles.
The same goes for crime figures.
What Shires are you talking about?
In my experience a lot of areas outside London are like that. It is one of those bumpkin attitudes that feeds into the the hatred of London – a rich, self-important, permissive leftie paradise that is full of immigrants and foreigners.
Hmm, absolute rubbish.
My experience is nothing like that - I have lived both in London and various places outside.
I'm not saying it is everywhere - but some places.
Ahh, so you have gone from "you are bound to ..."
to "lots of areas outside London are like that"
to "some places"
ie Absolute rubbish.
Is Bobajob giving it the 'I'm from London" big one again, despite living in some dull commuter suburb?
"Big one". LOL. Where would you suggest I say I live? I live in a suburb, in London. Are you suggesting nowhere outside Central London is part of London? Seems an odd definition.
They use subsamples. Of course if you import young men to work, who then leave once they have done a couple of years then, it is likely that they took very little out of the system.
However, looking at results based around ethnicity you see the long term consequences. Poverty, poverty, poverty.
TSE is a Tory remember... they take a while to catch up with the rest of us ;-)
I met someone once who claimed that only the City of London was really London, and for this reason London had no right to claim 8 million residents. "Leeds is actually much bigger," he would say.
Technically he's right... The Archdeaconry (which is what modern city boundaries originated from) is the Two Cities (City of Westminster and the City of London)...
I don't think that immigration increases the problems associated with poverty - there are proportionately fewer immigrants in prison, or claiming benefits, than there are people from the UK.
Also I can't verify your Bangladeshi figure - it seems true for females from Bangladesh, but males are actually less likely to be unemployed.
Not true. Foreign nationals (so not even including immigrants who have settled here and taken British Nationality) account for 13% of the UK prison population as of June 2013 according to the house of Commons library
TSE is a Tory remember... they take a while to catch up with the rest of us ;-)
I met someone once who claimed that only the City of London was really London, and for this reason London had no right to claim 8 million residents. "Leeds is actually much bigger," he would say.
Technically he's right... The Archdeaconry (which is what modern city boundaries originated from) is the Two Cities (City of Westminster and the City of London)...
TSE is a Tory remember... they take a while to catch up with the rest of us ;-)
I met someone once who claimed that only the City of London was really London, and for this reason London had no right to claim 8 million residents. "Leeds is actually much bigger," he would say.
Technically he's right... The Archdeaconry (which is what modern city boundaries originated from) is the Two Cities (City of Westminster and the City of London)...
My earliest memory of seeing Peter O'Toole is probably in the film "Supergirl", which unfortunately is usually rated as one of the worst movies of all time.
TSE is a Tory remember... they take a while to catch up with the rest of us ;-)
I met someone once who claimed that only the City of London was really London, and for this reason London had no right to claim 8 million residents. "Leeds is actually much bigger," he would say.
Technically he's right... The Archdeaconry (which is what modern city boundaries originated from) is the Two Cities (City of Westminster and the City of London)...
I think we may safely conclude that BaJ is a resident of neither....
Sheffield can have Dore; it's the wrong side of t'hills. But it'll be war if you ever try to steal Grindleford Cafe ...
I want Kinder Scout.
Get in line!
In the 1930s my granddad and a friend tried getting a tandem up Jacob's Ladder onto Kinder, and described taking two steps up, one step back. They cycled over Kinder with great difficulty, then cycled back to Derby via the Snake Pass.
I love the place, but I have never, ever walked the circuit in one day. Which is silly, as I've done about everything else up there.
Interesting poll facts, would seem that despite the prophets of doom like Owen Jones and Peter Hitchens that we are all out of work or unmarried, godless single parents things are not quite as bad as they make out.
Also RIP Peter O'Toole one of the greatest actors of his generation, his 'Lawrence' will forever define how we remember him
On the PDF I posted, as far as I could see the only areas where ethnicity correlated with a decent sized increase in prison population, was black or black british, and mixed race. "Chinese or other," was about half the size.
Like I said, sort by foreign-born (i.e. immigrants,) and there isn't a problem.
On the whole I don't think we need to be worrying about Bulgarians.
My earliest memory of seeing Peter O'Toole is probably in the film "Supergirl", which unfortunately is usually rated as one of the worst movies of all time.
I actually saw him do the legendary performance of "Macbeth" at the Liverpool Playhouse in 1980.
Sheffield can have Dore; it's the wrong side of t'hills. But it'll be war if you ever try to steal Grindleford Cafe ...
I want Kinder Scout.
Get in line!
In the 1930s my granddad and a friend tried getting a tandem up Jacob's Ladder onto Kinder, and described taking two steps up, one step back. They cycled over Kinder with great difficulty, then cycled back to Derby via the Snake Pass.
I love the place, but I have never, ever walked the circuit in one day. Which is silly, as I've done about everything else up there.
I am enjoying the irony of PB Tories enthusing about getting out into the wide open spaces of Kinder. Another argument their forebearers were on the wrong side of
On the PDF I posted, as far as I could see the only areas where ethnicity correlated with a decent sized increase in prison population, was black or black british, and mixed race. "Chinese or other," was about half the size.
Like I said, sort by foreign-born (i.e. immigrants,) and there isn't a problem.
On the whole I don't think we need to be worrying about Bulgarians.
There was a documentary, i think on the BBC, it was set in folkestone several years ago, in which they posted about the difference between peoples perceptions of 'asylum seekers' and the reality. Of couse it showed that the population were of course ignorant and the number of asylum seekers was on the hundreds, not thousands.
This was exposed however, because while the programme makers were being honest, the numbers they quoted were those officially seeking asylum. It did not include those who had failed, those who had succeeded and those on appeal.
So, are we yet agreed that immigration imports poverty? Are we agreed that non white british people twice as likely to be poor as white British?
>immigrants >non-white British
Pick One.
I dont need to. Non white British are only here because of immigration. You cannot say that immigration is a success, when those who have immigrated from other parts of the world and settled are twice as likely to be poor, two and half times as likely to be unemployed and three times as likely to be in jail.
Very sad to hear about the death of Peter O'Toole. I once had a drink in his dressing room with him and the late Dave Allen. Peter was in the "Jeffrey Bernard is Unwell" play. A very funny play and performance by Peter. A great night all round. Sláinte.
So, are we yet agreed that immigration imports poverty? Are we agreed that non white british people twice as likely to be poor as white British?
>immigrants >non-white British
Pick One.
I dont need to. Non white British are only here because of immigration. You cannot say that immigration is a success, when those who have immigrated from other parts of the world and settled are twice as likely to be poor, two and half times as likely to be unemployed and three times as likely to be in jail.
So all the non-white British immigrated (ie, were born overseas)?
Sheffield can have Dore; it's the wrong side of t'hills. But it'll be war if you ever try to steal Grindleford Cafe ...
I want Kinder Scout.
Get in line!
In the 1930s my granddad and a friend tried getting a tandem up Jacob's Ladder onto Kinder, and described taking two steps up, one step back. They cycled over Kinder with great difficulty, then cycled back to Derby via the Snake Pass.
I love the place, but I have never, ever walked the circuit in one day. Which is silly, as I've done about everything else up there.
I am enjoying the irony of PB Tories enthusing about getting out into the wide open spaces of Kinder. Another argument their forebearers were on the wrong side of
The irony of PB lefties assuming that people must have the same politics as their forefathers, or that only Communists were involved in the mass trespasses. ;-)
On that note, I'm against the English coastal path for several reasons. And I'm rather an expert on that. ;-)
Sheffield can have Dore; it's the wrong side of t'hills. But it'll be war if you ever try to steal Grindleford Cafe ...
I want Kinder Scout.
Get in line!
In the 1930s my granddad and a friend tried getting a tandem up Jacob's Ladder onto Kinder, and described taking two steps up, one step back. They cycled over Kinder with great difficulty, then cycled back to Derby via the Snake Pass.
I love the place, but I have never, ever walked the circuit in one day. Which is silly, as I've done about everything else up there.
I am enjoying the irony of PB Tories enthusing about getting out into the wide open spaces of Kinder. Another argument their forebearers were on the wrong side of
The irony of PB lefties assuming that people must have the same politics as their forefathers, or that only Communists were involved in the mass trespasses. ;-)
On that note, I'm against the English coastal path for several reasons. And I'm rather an expert on that. ;-)
Shall I point out to him my forebears came from the Punjab?
I don't think Clegg "happily" signed up top a coalition with the baby-eaters.
If we're just going by demeanours you may be right; Clegg's looked miserable for the last 3 years. Otoh, by the same (admittedly dubious) metric Danny Alexander has looked like a pig in the proverbial.
Ho ho. Fitalass backs hapless Danny. That screams lay, lay, lay.
Comments
So that deals with the Express. Another go?
Only 20% of bangladesh of working age are in full time employment. It's 50% for white British.
Poverty rate for minority ethnic groups in uk is 40%, it's 20% for white British.
implies:
(Citation needed)
I married an Infidel remember.
Another quote, "Almost half of all children from ethnic minorities are in poverty."
Importing poverty.
a) Cease to be a Muslim in the eyes of the mianstream Muslim community
b) Cease to be a Muslim in the eyes of the 'very bad Muslim'
A very bad Muslim, is one who does two of out of the following three, drinks alcohol, fornicates and eats Bacon.
I've down two out of those three.
Full disclosure, some very Bad Muslims pray five times a day, and read the Quran daily.
I am not one of those people.
Family Resources Survey
I'd be happy living next door to ethnic minorities, just prefer it if they weren't (devout) Muslims.
I am - of course - just being silly.
There are downsides to immigration, obviously. There are downsides to shutting yourself off to the outside world. Life is a series of choices, all of which carry advantages and disadvantages. If you are the CEO of a technology or finance company, you will be keen to keep the gates as wide open as possible, because the success of your firm depends on attracting the best talent from around the world. If, on the other hand, you are working in a low wage job, in a depressed part of the country, where there is already competition for the few opportunities around, it is unlikely you will believe your interests are best served by (any) additional immigration.
As an aside, and regarding statistics, by-and-large they are reliable. If you don't like the police figures, use the British Crime Survey. If you don't like the BCS, remember the major driver of changes in crime rate are (a) the rate of drug use by young people; (b) the 'drug of choice' by the young, and (c) the relative number of young people. Right now in both the UK and much of the developed world, there is less drug use by the young, more use of depressents rather than stimulants, and fewer young people. Even the most incompetent of police forces would expect to see crime fall. (As it has done, for example, across the US, almost irrespective of policing policy on a state-by-state basis.)
Also I can't verify your Bangladeshi figure - it seems true for females from Bangladesh, but males are actually less likely to be unemployed.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-market
How British Are You?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/how-british-are-you
I got
Probably American
Seriously. Check your passport.
Edit: It's 'cause I'm not a tea drinker.
to "lots of areas outside London are like that"
to "some places"
ie Absolute rubbish.
38% of Bangladeshi men are not in paid employment, 84% of bangladeshi women are not in paid employment
18% of white british men are not in paid employment, 29% of white british women are not in paid employment.
(source 2001 census)
A more up to date set of figures (which has no gender breakdown), between ages of 25 and retirement:
White British Bangledeshi
8% 17% %not in paid work but want to work
13% 41% %not in paid work say that they do not want paid work
Total not working:
21% 58%
Source:
Labour force survey ons
These arent margin of errors, these arent sampling errors. These are gigantic differences, showing the impact of importing poverty.
On the 30th june 2009, 29% of the prison population is from an ethnic minority.
But yes other areas are much more enlightened. I probably overcooked the point slightly.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/big-mistake-for-ed-miliband-to-almost-take-on-trade-union-bosses-9005287.html
On 30th June 2013, 13 percent of the prison population was foreign-born.
Source: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04334.pdf%E2%80%8E&ei=NxWuUvCjH6Wf7AaS2YDYDw&usg=AFQjCNH6qJNwDuH9_o03_wqiIl-pDlIscw&sig2=vuJ8Xw9igJRuFYjPh5xjZQ&bvm=bv.57967247,d.ZGU&cad=rja
It's a pdf. What a horrible link.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04334.pdf%E2%80%8E&ei=NxWuUvCjH6Wf7AaS2YDYDw&usg=AFQjCNH6qJNwDuH9_o03_wqiIl-pDlIscw&sig2=vuJ8Xw9igJRuFYjPh5xjZQ&bvm=bv.57967247,d.ZGU&cad=rja
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-immigrants-pay/16332
However, looking at results based around ethnicity you see the long term consequences. Poverty, poverty, poverty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London
In the 1930s my granddad and a friend tried getting a tandem up Jacob's Ladder onto Kinder, and described taking two steps up, one step back. They cycled over Kinder with great difficulty, then cycled back to Derby via the Snake Pass.
I love the place, but I have never, ever walked the circuit in one day. Which is silly, as I've done about everything else up there.
quite as bad as they make out.
Also RIP Peter O'Toole one of the greatest actors of his generation, his 'Lawrence' will forever define how we remember him
Like I said, sort by foreign-born (i.e. immigrants,) and there isn't a problem.
On the whole I don't think we need to be worrying about Bulgarians.
Best forgotten...
>non-white British
Pick One.
This was exposed however, because while the programme makers were being honest, the numbers they quoted were those officially seeking asylum. It did not include those who had failed, those who had succeeded and those on appeal.
I dont need to. Non white British are only here because of immigration. You cannot say that immigration is a success, when those who have immigrated from other parts of the world and settled are twice as likely to be poor, two and half times as likely to be unemployed and three times as likely to be in jail.
Hi.
A large proportion of people have an IQ lower than 85.
It's a normal distribution, so most are closest to 100%.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/IQ_distribution.svg
On that note, I'm against the English coastal path for several reasons. And I'm rather an expert on that. ;-)