Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betfair punters have got the LD leadership race about right –

1234689

Comments

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    tlg86 said:

    With Sir Keir Starmer heading Labour, there's not much point to Ed Davey. The country doesn't need two dull serious middle aged male leaders trading off their experience.

    That said, neither of the other two candidates look exactly compelling. He may still be the best of a bad job.

    I think Davey would be more appealing to potential Tory --> LD switches at the next election. The LD/Labour front is almost non-existent:

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    Some seats such as Sutton Carshalton may be interesting next time. When first created in the early 1970s , it was viewed as a Tory /Labour marginal and the Alliance did not gain second place until 1983.For some reason Labour failed to recover there under Blair in the mid 1990s and the LDs went on to win the seat and,thereafter, rely on many tactical Labour votes. Now that the LD have lost the seat here, there might be the real possibilty of Labour doing a 'Porsmouth South' by being able to strongly challenge from third place - particularly were Tom Brake not to stand again.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Scott_xP said:
    He clearly doesn't understand what's meant by "kicker".
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,599

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
  • Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Scott_xP said:
    AHAHAHA! Yet another smear that some fools were certain would bring Boris down bites the dust.

    Here's to many, many more of the same! :smiley:
    As regular readers will know, I'm no fan of Boris, but that accusation always looked silly to me.
    What part of the saga do you think was all above board?
    Bit of a 'have you stopped beating your wife' question, but the key thing was that the 'favours' supposedly given to Ms Arcuri amounted to nothing significant. She's clearly a charlatan who was milking her contacts to get networking opportunities, speaking at conferences on subjects she knew nothing about, exaggerating her company's importance, etc etc. I've come across a lot of those (the Blair government was particularly prone to them), and they are silly, but it's really not some great scandal, just hangers-on hanging on.
  • RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    IshmaelZ said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    I make a point of never believing allegations of racism in a political party until someone has been given a peerage for proving that there isn't one.
    Don't really see how this denies or conflicts with anything I said. I am appalled at racism within Labour, I have apologised for not calling it out quickly enough and on the manner of the peerage, I completely agree with you.

    But that does not dispute what I said about racism and prejudice in the Tory Party. And how anyone can claim to take the moral high ground on racism and then vote Tory is beyond me.
    Maybe because the Tory Party, unlike outfits like the BNP and the Labour Party, has never been the subject of a formal EHRC investigation for racism?

    Just a thought.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2020
    This isn't really great news,

    Number of people with coronavirus in England remains stable, says ONS

    The number of people with coronavirus in England has remained stable since the end of April, according to new data, with nearly 140,000 people infected in the last two weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/number-of-people-with-coronavirus-in-england-remains-stable-says-ons
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,351

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Income tax was set up to support the Napoleonic Wars, I wonder if @HYUFD thinks that means its not a tax too?

    Income tax reasons of the first few taxes, hence it is called a tax not an insurance like National Insurance
    A Jaffa cake is a biscuit.

    And the World Series is not open to teams from the whole planet.
    A Jaffa cake is not a biscuit according to the court ruling of 1991.
    Where is it found in supermarkets? Eh? Not the cake section. Where do you find the Penguin bars? At the pet shop?

    It's a biscuit.
    I would say it has genuine duality in this regard. By which I mean it is capable of being a cake and simultaneously a biscuit.

    Unusual but there are other examples. The testing stats spring to mind. Both above target and lamentably below at one and the same time.
    Ah, a quantum biscuit. Like light is waves and particles at the same time.
    Exactly so. And all for less than 2 quid a packet. Talk about a bargain.
    DYOR but I am told by a mate who is a despatcher for a transport co that he picks up the Lidl knock offs from the same factory as he picks up the branded ones. Also, the real ones are on offer as often as not at Tesco.
    White label is a core part of Aldi, Lidl & Costco business plan.
    Very little of the Aldi and Lidl products are classic "white label" (value basics floor sweepings). The quality standards set by ALdi and Lidl are usually very high, with their efficiency as a business allowing them to operate on 20% less margin than the big boys and thus pass the saving onto consumers.

    I am unsure as to the "knock offs" being talked about. Own label is own label - there are absolutely identical products in most sections in most supermarkets made on the same line with just a different bit of packaging at the end. Frankly the scraggiest own brand stuff can be found in Tesco and especially Asda.
    At my children's primary school some twenty years ago, a very well to do German parent rebuked the social climbing snobbery of parents who would claimed only shop in 'quality' supermarkets and wouldn't use the 'discounters'. She said 'in Germany, if you don't shop in Lidl or Aldi you are either profligate or stupid'.
    Quite. In the socialist Co-op I can buy product X in 8 different forms including one labelled 'Skanky stuff for the Poor' at the same price as Lidl, the others all three times as much. In wicked capitalist Lidl the poor get treated like people, there is about one choice and it's fine.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    No. The EU was not a racist system. Black, white, yellow or brown EU citizens all had freedom of movement. If your country joined the EU you got freedom of movement.

    Have you forgotten the poster about Turkey joining the EU and then the whole country decamping west to live in England?

    The point I was alluding to is that I would not be surprised to find racist incidents on the increase in the UK as immigrants will be easier to spot.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    This isn't really great news,

    Number of people with coronavirus in England remains stable, says ONS

    The number of people with coronavirus in England has remained stable since the end of April, according to new data, with nearly 140,000 people infected in the last two weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/number-of-people-with-coronavirus-in-england-remains-stable-says-ons

    I blame the under 30s sunning themselves in parks and on beaches. ;)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    A lot of Brexiteers voted for racist reasons, to kick foreigners out.

    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown people arrive to do the jobs that white people that come from Europe won't be doing anymore.

    It was the complete opposite of racism, I am pro immigration.
    So am I and so are many Brexiteers.

    There was a very good anti-rascism reason to support Brexit: That we should judge potential migrants on who they are rather than where they come from.

    On its own do you agree with that principle?
    I would be happy with FOM extending to more countries to be honest.
    The entire globe or just predominantly white countries?
    In principle, any country.

    I get that's an unpopular view and so practically not something Labour can actually promise because it will go down badly - but I think in principle FOM should be available to any country.
    Are you sure? What if over 100m wanted to come here, which I dont think is a crazy estimate?

    Freedom of movement from close neighbours with similar economies was not a political issue, it was when poorer countries joined the EU that it became problematic. Those "poorer" countries were probably above average globally and only about 1-2% of the worlds population.
    In principle I support FOM from any country. I was asked a question and I answered it.
    Im not sure what in principle means here?

    Is it youd like to support but know you cant because too many people would come so cant in practice?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:
    The Maoist rhetoric from this government continues.

    What would 100,000 nurses be....a Great Leap Forward?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    I make a point of never believing allegations of racism in a political party until someone has been given a peerage for proving that there isn't one.
    Don't really see how this denies or conflicts with anything I said. I am appalled at racism within Labour, I have apologised for not calling it out quickly enough and on the manner of the peerage, I completely agree with you.

    But that does not dispute what I said about racism and prejudice in the Tory Party. And how anyone can claim to take the moral high ground on racism and then vote Tory is beyond me.
    Maybe because the Tory Party, unlike outfits like the BNP and the Labour Party, has never been the subject of a formal EHRC investigation for racism?

    Just a thought.
    That isn't the mark for whether a party has said, employed, or had people say or do racist things.

    It is *a* mark - of course we await the conclusions of the EHRC investigation - but not *the* mark.

    I am talking to somebody called BluestBlue though, so of course I am not going to get a vaguely objective answer.

    Another hypocrite to add to the pile, though.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    .
    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,857

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Yes, when I found out that non-white EU citizens were excluded from Free Movement I was utterly disgusted. I didn't realize this when I went for Remain in 2016. Could well have changed my vote. Probably would have done.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    Excuse me but when my party was taken over by someone I considered a xenophobe I quit it. I've said that more times than I can count. That, not Brexit, is the reason Theresa May disgusts me. So I'm not a hypocrite I judge my own side as harshly as yours.

    There is no evidence for endemic racism and discrimination in the Tory Party. If you have evidence that isn't petulant point scoring or in good faith disagreeing with religious beliefs then share it.
    You don't though, you're a Tory voter because they're in line with your beliefs on Brexit amongst other things.

    I know for a fact you'd vote Tory if they had issues with anything, if it meant getting Brexit. That much is clear from your posting.

    Like I said above, I acknowledge my hypocrisy and I have apologised for it. You however, have not.

    PB Tories are not consistent. You can attempt to take the moral high ground but the truth of the matter is, the Tory Party has countless issues with racism and prejudice going back years. And to pretend otherwise is just wilfully ignorant.

    If you voted Tory or Labour in the GE19 election, you either didn't care about racism, you didn't believe the allegations (hard to see how that can be the case), or you're a hypocrite.

    The only voters who can claim to take the moral high ground are probably those that voted Lib Dem.

    As I didn't vote Labour, I could sit here and take the moral high ground - but I freely acknowledge I was here saying Labour was the party to vote for. So I accept that.

    You do not, so please do not lecture me on anything.

    You have a lovely afternoon.
    Yes I vote Tory because it reflects my beliefs. My beliefs include standing up to and opposing racism. A party that is endemically racist or led by one is NOT representing my beliefs. And if the Tory party ceases to reflect my beliefs, I will cease to support it.

    I have no hypocrisy and I am consistent. When my party was led by a xenophobe I quit the party and vocally opposed it. on this site. My conscience is clean thank you.

    There will always be some cranks in any party and they should be dealt with but when the rot goes to the top or is supported or tolerated that is when it is a dealbreaker.

    Corbyn was racist. May was a xenophobe. I have no time for either and was consistent.
  • Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    A lot of Brexiteers voted for racist reasons, to kick foreigners out.

    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown people arrive to do the jobs that white people that come from Europe won't be doing anymore.

    It was the complete opposite of racism, I am pro immigration.
    So am I and so are many Brexiteers.

    There was a very good anti-rascism reason to support Brexit: That we should judge potential migrants on who they are rather than where they come from.

    On its own do you agree with that principle?
    I would be happy with FOM extending to more countries to be honest.
    The entire globe or just predominantly white countries?
    In principle, any country.

    I get that's an unpopular view and so practically not something Labour can actually promise because it will go down badly - but I think in principle FOM should be available to any country.
    Are you sure? What if over 100m wanted to come here, which I dont think is a crazy estimate?

    Freedom of movement from close neighbours with similar economies was not a political issue, it was when poorer countries joined the EU that it became problematic. Those "poorer" countries were probably above average globally and only about 1-2% of the worlds population.
    In principle I support FOM from any country. I was asked a question and I answered it.
    Im not sure what in principle means here?

    Is it youd like to support but know you cant because too many people would come so cant in practice?
    I support it but not in practice because if Labour offered it as a policy it would not be popular.

    I'm a Republican too - but I am not advocating we get rid of the Monarchy.

    We have left the EU now, I accept that. And the rational way forward for a party that wants to govern is to have an immigration system that the majority of the public support. And I acknowledge that is probably the Tory one.

    But it doesn't mean I support it - and I will continue to say what I would support.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    It was free movement for neighbours and trade partners, whatever their race, including the right for minorities in the UK to work in the rest of the EU.

    There was no free movement for white Americans, Australians, Russians etc.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Now we’re just going to judge all foreigners harshly, the severity of the harshness depending upon which sectors of the economy a Whitehall bureaucrat determines needs fresh blood
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Even in 2020 it seems we can have loads of basically unchallenged comments on women politicians looks alone. I'm ont offended, i don;t give a toss. Just find it interesting and little surprising.

    While we're on the subject, the one I've never heard of walked into a bar and the barman says "why the long face...?"

    Sorry...

    I presume they were unchallenged because for one various people have commented on odd looking male politicians, and that there may be an unfairness in female politicians getting so judged more than male ones was also noted, and part of it was about dress which does apply to men, and it was all rather detached in tone for the most part.

    Theres a careful line when it comes to appearance, since appearance does matter (which is not the same as having to look good or stylish necessarily) but can easily become uncomfortable.
    Men are always judging women on their appearance. It is so commonplace that I think most of us simply put up with it (most of the time).

    I find find it rather amazing TBH, given how many men seem to have jeans halfway down their a*se or shirts that are not even close to fitting.
    Quite.

    Still of the three Daisy looks lovely and stylish, Ed Daley is presentable and well dressed and Layla needs to find a suit that fits properly and that doesn’t make her look as as if she picked it off the rails at an Oxfam shop with her eyes shut.

    Went off Layla after hearing her during the last GE campaign. I like Ed Davey. Know nothing about Daisy Cooper. A party that spoke up for true liberal values would be nice. Not sure if the LibDems are that party anymore, though.
    Ms Moran looks like she needs to buy an iron and a maybe someone should buy her a voucher for ColourMeBeautiful :disappointed:
    ....
    ...Men are always judging women on their appearance...
    :wink:
    Yes, but it is different for women doing women. It is purely a sartorial issue and no sex appeal is involved.

    A bit of a "When Harry met Sally" sort of thing ;);)
    Very heteronormative of you! There would indeed be sex appeal involved for millions of women...
  • Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    Excuse me but when my party was taken over by someone I considered a xenophobe I quit it. I've said that more times than I can count. That, not Brexit, is the reason Theresa May disgusts me. So I'm not a hypocrite I judge my own side as harshly as yours.

    There is no evidence for endemic racism and discrimination in the Tory Party. If you have evidence that isn't petulant point scoring or in good faith disagreeing with religious beliefs then share it.
    You don't though, you're a Tory voter because they're in line with your beliefs on Brexit amongst other things.

    I know for a fact you'd vote Tory if they had issues with anything, if it meant getting Brexit. That much is clear from your posting.

    Like I said above, I acknowledge my hypocrisy and I have apologised for it. You however, have not.

    PB Tories are not consistent. You can attempt to take the moral high ground but the truth of the matter is, the Tory Party has countless issues with racism and prejudice going back years. And to pretend otherwise is just wilfully ignorant.

    If you voted Tory or Labour in the GE19 election, you either didn't care about racism, you didn't believe the allegations (hard to see how that can be the case), or you're a hypocrite.

    The only voters who can claim to take the moral high ground are probably those that voted Lib Dem.

    As I didn't vote Labour, I could sit here and take the moral high ground - but I freely acknowledge I was here saying Labour was the party to vote for. So I accept that.

    You do not, so please do not lecture me on anything.

    You have a lovely afternoon.
    Yes I vote Tory because it reflects my beliefs. My beliefs include standing up to and opposing racism. A party that is endemically racist or led by one is NOT representing my beliefs. And if the Tory party ceases to reflect my beliefs, I will cease to support it.

    I have no hypocrisy and I am consistent. When my party was led by a xenophobe I quit the party and vocally opposed it. on this site. My conscience is clean thank you.

    There will always be some cranks in any party and they should be dealt with but when the rot goes to the top or is supported or tolerated that is when it is a dealbreaker.

    Corbyn was racist. May was a xenophobe. I have no time for either and was consistent.
    Did you abstain from voting in GE17 out of interest?
  • RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    Don't all migration systems other than wholly open borders do that?

    Someone from Carlisle can move to Coventry without any restriction, whereas someone from Chicago can't.
  • RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    Don't all migration systems other than wholly open borders do that?

    Someone from Carlisle can move to Coventry without any restriction, whereas someone from Chicago can't.
    Fair point. It's discriminatory to certain groups of non-citizens. Naturally citizens enjoy greater rights than non-citizens.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    Don't all migration systems other than wholly open borders do that?

    Someone from Carlisle can move to Coventry without any restriction, whereas someone from Chicago can't.
    Fair point. It's discriminatory to certain groups of non-citizens. Naturally citizens enjoy greater rights than non-citizens.
    And we were, until recently, citizens of the EU. So your argument collapses.
  • Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    No. The EU was not a racist system. Black, white, yellow or brown EU citizens all had freedom of movement. If your country joined the EU you got freedom of movement.

    Have you forgotten the poster about Turkey joining the EU and then the whole country decamping west to live in England?

    The point I was alluding to is that I would not be surprised to find racist incidents on the increase in the UK as immigrants will be easier to spot.
    Anyone not blinkered knew exactly what you meant. The person is just being wilfully ignorant.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Carlaw as much use as a chocolate teapot.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    This isn't really great news,

    Number of people with coronavirus in England remains stable, says ONS

    The number of people with coronavirus in England has remained stable since the end of April, according to new data, with nearly 140,000 people infected in the last two weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/number-of-people-with-coronavirus-in-england-remains-stable-says-ons

    Maybe the Swedes are right.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    The EU immigration system does not discriminate based on the colour of your skin, or any other characteristic that is considered racist.

    What you said was literally one of the most ridiculous things I've seen written on this site.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    Scott_xP said:
    AHAHAHA! Yet another smear that some fools were certain would bring Boris down bites the dust.

    Here's to many, many more of the same! :smiley:
    As regular readers will know, I'm no fan of Boris, but that accusation always looked silly to me.
    What part of the saga do you think was all above board?
    Bit of a 'have you stopped beating your wife' question, but the key thing was that the 'favours' supposedly given to Ms Arcuri amounted to nothing significant. She's clearly a charlatan who was milking her contacts to get networking opportunities, speaking at conferences on subjects she knew nothing about, exaggerating her company's importance, etc etc. I've come across a lot of those (the Blair government was particularly prone to them), and they are silly, but it's really not some great scandal, just hangers-on hanging on.
    'Milking her contacts' conjures up a certain putting one of one's lunch image..
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
  • RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    The EU FOM system does not discriminate on the grounds of race, or the colour of your skin.

    You're just being silly now, all because you're upset I attacked the Tory Party.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020

    This isn't really great news,

    Number of people with coronavirus in England remains stable, says ONS

    The number of people with coronavirus in England has remained stable since the end of April, according to new data, with nearly 140,000 people infected in the last two weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/number-of-people-with-coronavirus-in-england-remains-stable-says-ons

    Maybe the Swedes are right.
    The Mail had some graphics about how the Swedish economy is faring compared to ours. A lot of the numbers are forecasts so the jury is out, but it certainly challenges the notion that 'this economic depression would have happened anyway'
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257

    This isn't really great news,

    Number of people with coronavirus in England remains stable, says ONS

    The number of people with coronavirus in England has remained stable since the end of April, according to new data, with nearly 140,000 people infected in the last two weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/number-of-people-with-coronavirus-in-england-remains-stable-says-ons

    Yep, suggests no room for manoeuvre. And yet deaths, confirmed cases (from main testing, not this sample) continue to drop. So are we getting much better at preventing infection in the vulnerable (those who die and are more likely to get tested, up to now, due to being in hospital) but not making much difference to transmission in the general population? Interesting.

    Also worth noting that the CI are large - although on the face of it a large sample tested, only 30 or so positive tests. Having a substantial drop in cases is also consistent with the observed results.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    The EU immigration system does not discriminate based on the colour of your skin, or any other characteristic that is considered racist.

    What you said was literally one of the most ridiculous things I've seen written on this site.
    I actually said it wasn't, not by design. In practice I think it's fair to say it doesn't treat people from different countries evenly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,857
    edited May 2020

    IshmaelZ said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    I make a point of never believing allegations of racism in a political party until someone has been given a peerage for proving that there isn't one.
    Don't really see how this denies or conflicts with anything I said. I am appalled at racism within Labour, I have apologised for not calling it out quickly enough and on the manner of the peerage, I completely agree with you.

    But that does not dispute what I said about racism and prejudice in the Tory Party. And how anyone can claim to take the moral high ground on racism and then vote Tory is beyond me.
    Maybe because the Tory Party, unlike outfits like the BNP and the Labour Party, has never been the subject of a formal EHRC investigation for racism?

    Just a thought.
    If racism is one of your very biggest concerns you are unlikely to be a strong supporter of the current Conservative Party. I think we all know this really.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    Excuse me but when my party was taken over by someone I considered a xenophobe I quit it. I've said that more times than I can count. That, not Brexit, is the reason Theresa May disgusts me. So I'm not a hypocrite I judge my own side as harshly as yours.

    There is no evidence for endemic racism and discrimination in the Tory Party. If you have evidence that isn't petulant point scoring or in good faith disagreeing with religious beliefs then share it.
    You don't though, you're a Tory voter because they're in line with your beliefs on Brexit amongst other things.

    I know for a fact you'd vote Tory if they had issues with anything, if it meant getting Brexit. That much is clear from your posting.

    Like I said above, I acknowledge my hypocrisy and I have apologised for it. You however, have not.

    PB Tories are not consistent. You can attempt to take the moral high ground but the truth of the matter is, the Tory Party has countless issues with racism and prejudice going back years. And to pretend otherwise is just wilfully ignorant.

    If you voted Tory or Labour in the GE19 election, you either didn't care about racism, you didn't believe the allegations (hard to see how that can be the case), or you're a hypocrite.

    The only voters who can claim to take the moral high ground are probably those that voted Lib Dem.

    As I didn't vote Labour, I could sit here and take the moral high ground - but I freely acknowledge I was here saying Labour was the party to vote for. So I accept that.

    You do not, so please do not lecture me on anything.

    You have a lovely afternoon.
    Yes I vote Tory because it reflects my beliefs. My beliefs include standing up to and opposing racism. A party that is endemically racist or led by one is NOT representing my beliefs. And if the Tory party ceases to reflect my beliefs, I will cease to support it.

    I have no hypocrisy and I am consistent. When my party was led by a xenophobe I quit the party and vocally opposed it. on this site. My conscience is clean thank you.

    There will always be some cranks in any party and they should be dealt with but when the rot goes to the top or is supported or tolerated that is when it is a dealbreaker.

    Corbyn was racist. May was a xenophobe. I have no time for either and was consistent.
    Did you abstain from voting in GE17 out of interest?
    No I pinched my nose and voted for the lesser of two evils.

    As I would if I was an American to get rid of Trump.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    I make a point of never believing allegations of racism in a political party until someone has been given a peerage for proving that there isn't one.
    Don't really see how this denies or conflicts with anything I said. I am appalled at racism within Labour, I have apologised for not calling it out quickly enough and on the manner of the peerage, I completely agree with you.

    But that does not dispute what I said about racism and prejudice in the Tory Party. And how anyone can claim to take the moral high ground on racism and then vote Tory is beyond me.
    Maybe because the Tory Party, unlike outfits like the BNP and the Labour Party, has never been the subject of a formal EHRC investigation for racism?

    Just a thought.
    If racism is one of your very biggest concerns you are quite unlikely to be a strong supporter of the Conservative Party. I think we all know this really.
    Why? The Conservative Party is a party the believes in people based on who they are not where they come from or the colour of their skin. I support that 100%.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    edited May 2020

    Pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca today announced it has the capacity to make one billion doses of an experimental coronavirus vaccine.

    UK has reportedly ordered 100million doses for a population of 66million people...

    I assume the excess would enable us to offer vaccinations to international arrivals, which would be a pragmatic way to allow the end of quarantine restrictions and boost the UK as a tourist destination.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    kinabalu said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Yes, when I found out that non-white EU citizens were excluded from Free Movement I was utterly disgusted. I didn't realize this when I went for Remain in 2016. Could well have changed my vote. Probably would have done.
    Some folk still think France is entirely populated by stripy shirted, Gauloise smoking onion sellers, and as for the lederhosen wearers of Großdeutschland..
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca today announced it has the capacity to make one billion doses of an experimental coronavirus vaccine.

    UK has reportedly ordered 100million doses for a population of 66million people...

    I assume the excess would enable us to offer vaccinations to international arrivals, which would be a pragmatic way to allow the end of quarantine restrictions and boost the UK as a tourist destination.
    Bloody health tourists!
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    The EU immigration system does not discriminate based on the colour of your skin, or any other characteristic that is considered racist.

    What you said was literally one of the most ridiculous things I've seen written on this site.
    I actually said it wasn't, not by design. In practice I think it's fair to say it doesn't treat people from different countries evenly.
    In practice and in design, the EU immigration system is not racist.

    Does it discriminate on race, no.

    Therefore it is not racist.

    Some ridiculous point was made about the EU itself not allowing black and brown countries to join - but there is no evidence that is the case. There are criteria to join the EU, none are based on race.

    If you're black and from an EU country, you can work and reside in any other. That is not racism, it's the complete opposite.

    The whole argument is ridiculous. To try and defend the Tory immigration system on the grounds the EU one is racist is one of the most absurd PB Tory defences I've seen. And the one about Johnson's muscle was funny enough.
  • Awb682Awb682 Posts: 22
    Moron certainly doesn't offer anything at all.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    TGOHF666 said:

    Carlaw as much use as a chocolate teapot.

    Finally, agreement on something!
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    Nobody sensible thinks it is racist and that user doesn't either, not really.

    He's just angry I accused the Tories of being racist.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited May 2020
    RobD said:

    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.

    Talent? What has talent to do with it? You do not need talent to move from London to Glasgow or to Tamworth or anywhere in the UK. You just do it, but there is a border outside of which that no longer applies. FoM just extended the area covered but added the provisio that if you could not support yourself you could be sent back after three months - a point that was rarely made in the UK and certainly not implemented by any of our governments of whichever political colour.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    The EU system does not discriminate on the grounds of race, or the colour of your skin.

    You're just being silly now, all because you're upset I attacked the Tory Party.
    Not directly it doesn't but indirectly it does by setting one rule for white European countries and and one rule for others. Are you saying indirect discrimination can't be racist?

    I attack the GOP for doing voter suppression in predominantly African American and Hispanic communities while not doing so in predominantly white communities. And I view that as racist.

    Are you saying the GOP targeting demographically ethnic minority communities for voter suppression is not racism since a white person in that community is also suppressed?
  • kinabalu said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Yes, when I found out that non-white EU citizens were excluded from Free Movement I was utterly disgusted. I didn't realize this when I went for Remain in 2016. Could well have changed my vote. Probably would have done.
    Some folk still think France is entirely populated by stripy shirted, Gauloise smoking onion sellers, and as for the lederhosen wearers of Großdeutschland..
    Lots think Polish people are coming here to rape our children and steal our jobs.

    Yet I see very few British people signing up to pick fruit or clean toilets. Why?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Carlaw as much use as a chocolate teapot.

    Finally, agreement on something!
    I guess if he had talent he would be in Westminster.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca today announced it has the capacity to make one billion doses of an experimental coronavirus vaccine.

    UK has reportedly ordered 100million doses for a population of 66million people

    The Brentford-based firm has signed a deal to mass-produce Oxford University's promising COVID-19 jab and has agreements to supply 400million doses already.

    US health officials – who have spent $1billion (£806,000) on funding the vaccine – announced today they have ordered 300million doses and hope to receive them for October.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8343133/AstraZeneca-begin-supply-Covid-19-vaccine-September.html

    The dollar exchange rate must have collapsed whilst I wasn't watching...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,857

    The US government has lobbed a billion dollars at the Oxford Vaccine/AstraZeneca team.

    They must fancy it.

    No doubt with a condition that Trump's mug goes on the bottle when it hits the shops.

    I suppose money is money but I really would prefer help from somewhere else.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Awb682 said:

    Moron certainly doesn't offer anything at all.

    You do not seem to be offering much either.... why not try contributing without the slur?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    But surely Turkey's entry is imminent, that's what Brexiteers were telling us.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Is Holyrood normally this dull ?

    Far too polite. No wonder it doesn't get the viewing figures of PMQs.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kinabalu said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Yes, when I found out that non-white EU citizens were excluded from Free Movement I was utterly disgusted. I didn't realize this when I went for Remain in 2016. Could well have changed my vote. Probably would have done.
    Some folk still think France is entirely populated by stripy shirted, Gauloise smoking onion sellers, and as for the lederhosen wearers of Großdeutschland..
    Lots think Polish people are coming here to rape our children and steal our jobs.

    Yet I see very few British people signing up to pick fruit or clean toilets. Why?
    You must travel in different circles to me. I know many British people who do just that.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca today announced it has the capacity to make one billion doses of an experimental coronavirus vaccine.

    UK has reportedly ordered 100million doses for a population of 66million people

    The Brentford-based firm has signed a deal to mass-produce Oxford University's promising COVID-19 jab and has agreements to supply 400million doses already.

    US health officials – who have spent $1billion (£806,000) on funding the vaccine – announced today they have ordered 300million doses and hope to receive them for October.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8343133/AstraZeneca-begin-supply-Covid-19-vaccine-September.html

    The dollar exchange rate must have collapsed whilst I wasn't watching...
    The UK and the US are realising lockdown is viciously destructive economically and are looking for a reason to abandon the whole thing entirely, whatever 'the science' says

    A vaccine, even if only partly effective, is the perfect way.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    But surely Turkey's entry is imminent, that's what Brexiteers were telling us.
    Schrodinger's entry.

    Turkey was joining and our government was saying there were joining but the French have said for decades they wouldn't let Turkey in because of the racial make up of Turkey.

    That is what makes EU free movement a racist endeavour. If Turkey was white it would have been allowed in by now.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Sturgeon wants a 4 day week - jings.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    edited May 2020

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    It wasnt refused, it was told the rules of the club and Turkey decided not to comply. If Turkey wanted to join it on the clubs terms it was welcome.

    Unsurprisingly and for the avoidance of doubt, the required terms did not include requiring a higher percentage of white people.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca today announced it has the capacity to make one billion doses of an experimental coronavirus vaccine.

    UK has reportedly ordered 100million doses for a population of 66million people

    The Brentford-based firm has signed a deal to mass-produce Oxford University's promising COVID-19 jab and has agreements to supply 400million doses already.

    US health officials – who have spent $1billion (£806,000) on funding the vaccine – announced today they have ordered 300million doses and hope to receive them for October.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8343133/AstraZeneca-begin-supply-Covid-19-vaccine-September.html

    The dollar exchange rate must have collapsed whilst I wasn't watching...
    The UK and the US are realising lockdown is viciously destructive economically and are looking for a reason to abandon the whole thing entirely, whatever 'the science' says

    A vaccine, even if only partly effective, is the perfect way.

    Still a win if it significantly reduces the impact of the disease rather than stopping it entirely.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    RobD said:



    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.

    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    The EU system does not discriminate on the grounds of race, or the colour of your skin.

    You're just being silly now, all because you're upset I attacked the Tory Party.
    Not directly it doesn't but indirectly it does by setting one rule for white European countries and and one rule for others. Are you saying indirect discrimination can't be racist?

    I attack the GOP for doing voter suppression in predominantly African American and Hispanic communities while not doing so in predominantly white communities. And I view that as racist.

    Are you saying the GOP targeting demographically ethnic minority communities for voter suppression is not racism since a white person in that community is also suppressed?
    All migration systems are racist in that they discriminate against those not in the Demos. Racism is not dependent on skin colour. The EU is an attempt to expand the reach of the Demos across the continent, an attempt that was rejected by the UK. We are now being racist towards Europe in the same way as the rest of the world. So we have expanded our racism, not narrowed it. We will treat people from the UK preferentially to the rest of the world, as opposed to treating people from the EEA preferentially. More people are thus discriminated against.

    As for your continued insistence that EU citizenship is based on race...take a look at yourself. Anti-Semitism across the continent and Anti-Irish racism here is racist. EU citizenship is not based on skin colour.
  • RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    This does rather point up the silliness of dividing the world into "black", "white" and "yellow" as seems to be the wont of a certain type of person.

    Surely the Greeks and Cypriots have much more in common with the Turks than they do with the Irish or Swedes if we're thinking either in terms of skin tone and genetics?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
    You mean you're failing to find a winning argument.

    Turkey aren't in the EU because they're not white. If Turkey were white they'd have been in by now and they'd have free movement.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    It wasnt refused, it was told the rules of the club and Turkey decided not to comply. If Turkey wanted to join it on the clubs terms it was welcome.
    And if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you ...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842


    US health officials – who have spent $1billion (£806,000) on funding the vaccine – announced today they have ordered 300million doses and hope to receive them for October.

    Strong rise in sterling today then.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,857

    kinabalu said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Yes, when I found out that non-white EU citizens were excluded from Free Movement I was utterly disgusted. I didn't realize this when I went for Remain in 2016. Could well have changed my vote. Probably would have done.
    Some folk still think France is entirely populated by stripy shirted, Gauloise smoking onion sellers, and as for the lederhosen wearers of Großdeutschland..
    Lots think Polish people are coming here to rape our children and steal our jobs.

    Yet I see very few British people signing up to pick fruit or clean toilets. Why?
    We have some Polish builders on the roof atm. Working hard, strains of Beiber's "Baby" coming from their radio. It's all good.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
    You mean you're failing to find a winning argument.

    Turkey aren't in the EU because they're not white. If Turkey were white they'd have been in by now and they'd have free movement.
    If skin colour is the issue, why is Cyprus in the EU? Or indeed Malta, who speak a Semitic language, and are more closely related to their Arab neighbours than their European ones?
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Yes, when I found out that non-white EU citizens were excluded from Free Movement I was utterly disgusted. I didn't realize this when I went for Remain in 2016. Could well have changed my vote. Probably would have done.
    Some folk still think France is entirely populated by stripy shirted, Gauloise smoking onion sellers, and as for the lederhosen wearers of Großdeutschland..
    Lots think Polish people are coming here to rape our children and steal our jobs.

    Yet I see very few British people signing up to pick fruit or clean toilets. Why?
    We have some Polish builders on the roof atm. Working hard, strains of Beiber's "Baby" coming from their radio. It's all good.
    Deport them now due to lack of taste.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
    You mean you're failing to find a winning argument.

    Turkey aren't in the EU because they're not white. If Turkey were white they'd have been in by now and they'd have free movement.
    You're literally insane.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020
    Is doing voter suppression in demographically mainly ethnic minority communities racist? Yes or no?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
    You mean you're failing to find a winning argument.

    Turkey aren't in the EU because they're not white. If Turkey were white they'd have been in by now and they'd have free movement.
    No. Turkey is not welcome because of human rights violations, effective dictatorship and lack of rule of law. The same reasons white Russia's application would get rejected.
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911

    Nigelb said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    I have already been informed by errrr... progressive friends. that we now have the wrong kind of immigration.

    Their arguments on this were interesting.
    Wrong kind of progressives...
    Several stated that skills were racist - since certain societies/groups have lower skill levels.
    Simultaneously sweepingly branding entire societies with a single negative characteristic AND worrying about racism... OK then

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    DougSeal said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
    You mean you're failing to find a winning argument.

    Turkey aren't in the EU because they're not white. If Turkey were white they'd have been in by now and they'd have free movement.
    If skin colour is the issue, why is Cyprus in the EU? Or indeed Malta, who speak a Semitic language, and are more closely related to their Arab neighbours than their European ones?
    It is just nonsense to justify support for leaving the EU.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    This does rather point up the silliness of dividing the world into "black", "white" and "yellow" as seems to be the wont of a certain type of person.

    Surely the Greeks and Cypriots have much more in common with the Turks than they do with the Irish or Swedes if we're thinking either in terms of skin tone and genetics?
    Well, there is the Muslim aspect. Though of course that's not related to race at all as we're told so often on here.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    This does rather point up the silliness of dividing the world into "black", "white" and "yellow" as seems to be the wont of a certain type of person.

    Surely the Greeks and Cypriots have much more in common with the Turks than they do with the Irish or Swedes if we're thinking either in terms of skin tone and genetics?
    Genetically maybe but they're accepted more as Christian Europeans than Muslim Middle Easterners like Turkey is treated as.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    the French have said for decades they wouldn't let Turkey in because of the racial make up of Turkey.

    Citation please.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2020

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    Xenophobic.
    And predominantly discriminating against people of colour. Perhaps mostly racist would be an appropriate description.
    You've truly gone off the deep end.

    PB Tories, never change.
    It's true, isn't it? Or have I not been keeping up to date with EU demographics recently. The previous system prioritised people based on where they were from over their talents. I think the system should be based around the latter.
    It was a reciprocal arrangement. I didn't need to prove my worth to a bureaucrat in order to move to Berlin, and Helmut didn't to move to London.

    Worked quite well in my view. But obviously enough of my fellow Brits disagreed, which is their right, and so here we are.

    There are arguments both ways. What I don't think is open to you is to seriously try to argue that reciprocal free movement was an inherently unfair or racist enterprise.
    When that reciprocation is limited to white countries it is.
    I can see arguing with you is about as useful as arguing with a brick wall.
    I don't suppose you've yet come to terms with the fact that on this thread you've argued that discrimination against a religion is obviously racist, and yet simultaneously maintained that an immigration system that has the practical effect of giving free movement only to populations that are 95% white is not racist.

    That's a wee bit of a logical contradiction :wink:
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    RobD said:

    Sturgeon - latest estimate of R 0.7-1.0, but estimate is "below 1" - but below 1 for 3 weeks - so time to move forward in careful relaxation.

    It's been below one for three weeks. I thought she was saying it was above 1 last week?
    Only in the minds of Tories trying to score points Rob.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Later peeps!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    the French have said for decades they wouldn't let Turkey in because of the racial make up of Turkey.

    Citation please.
    From 2004: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/02/eu.france
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    Scott_xP said:
    You have to wonder why they decided to dig their heels in on this one. Two possibilities:
    1. They truly are tone deaf as to how this looks to normals outside their bubble.
    2. They genuinely think "kick the foreigner" will score them points with their voters
  • RobD said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    It will be very entertaining when more black and brown faces end up showing up on our streets.
    Why are you bringing race into it? Does racism entertain you?

    That seemed out of character.
    It does raise a point though - for those that have a racism issue, white faces from Europe are much harder to pick out of the crowd than somebody in a turban or a burqa.
    Agreed. The EU was a racist migration system. Free movement for whites but we will judge others harshly.
    Still fighting the war you have already won? Tiresome!
    To call the EU a racist migration system really calls into question his entire set of views on what is and isn't racist. But then like I say, PB Tories are never consistent.
    It was a system that discriminated against people based on where they are from. Maybe not racist, but not exactly fair.
    But not racist, thanks for acknowledging that.
    You don't see any racism in setting one rule for a club of white nations and another for others - then refusing to let in non-white nations into the club?
    Which "non white" nations applied and were refused?
    Turkey. It applied decades ago long before the fall of the Soviet Union.
    This does rather point up the silliness of dividing the world into "black", "white" and "yellow" as seems to be the wont of a certain type of person.

    Surely the Greeks and Cypriots have much more in common with the Turks than they do with the Irish or Swedes if we're thinking either in terms of skin tone and genetics?
    Well, there is the Muslim aspect. Though of course that's not related to race at all as we're told so often on here.
    It's fairly likely that there will be a predominantly Muslim country in the EU before all that long, although it won't be Turkey.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TGOHF666 said:

    Carlaw as much use as a chocolate teapot.

    You noticed.

    That is the Unionist candidate for FM next year. Moronic decision.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Remarkable to see Leavers who angrily argued that "Turkey is joining the EU" was not a xenophobic lie now arguing that Turkey not joining the EU is xenophobic.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2020

    IshmaelZ said:

    Great news, and I'm sure exactly what all the Brexit supporters voted for.
    Yes it is what many of us including me voted for. It's what many politicians including our current Prime Minister and current Home Secretary campaigned for.
    Agreed. But you wouldn't have won without the racists.
    If Labour had by some fluke squeaked into government in 2019, it wouldn't have done so without the votes of communists and antisemites. What's your point?
    The anti semitism in labour will never go away.. its ingrained.
    I hope the EHRC investigation will go somewhere to resolving it.

    Now what about the Tories and their Islamophobia problem, where is the report that was promised? Odd how the PB Tories don't seem to care about racism when it is their own side.
    Cue a hundred 'how can you be racist against a religion' replies and the subsequent death of the soul.
    Answer: You can't be.
    I just think you're a hypocrite for being appalled at racism and discrimination in one party yet happily voting for another one that has clear evidence of doing similar - but we have covered this ground before.
    I make a point of never believing allegations of racism in a political party until someone has been given a peerage for proving that there isn't one.
    Don't really see how this denies or conflicts with anything I said. I am appalled at racism within Labour, I have apologised for not calling it out quickly enough and on the manner of the peerage, I completely agree with you.

    But that does not dispute what I said about racism and prejudice in the Tory Party. And how anyone can claim to take the moral high ground on racism and then vote Tory is beyond me.
    Maybe because the Tory Party, unlike outfits like the BNP and the Labour Party, has never been the subject of a formal EHRC investigation for racism?

    Just a thought.
    That isn't the mark for whether a party has said, employed, or had people say or do racist things.

    It is *a* mark - of course we await the conclusions of the EHRC investigation - but not *the* mark.

    I am talking to somebody called BluestBlue though, so of course I am not going to get a vaguely objective answer.

    Another hypocrite to add to the pile, though.
    And I'm talking to someone called IncorrectHorseBattery. Don't say I didn't warn you about that in advance! :smile:

    p.s. What part of being, or not being investigated for racism by the premier equalities and human rights body in the UK is not 'objective', by the way? It's an objectively verifiable binary opposition, which you happen not to believe is objective just because the Labour Party is on the racist side of that binary...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    .
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    Sturgeon - latest estimate of R 0.7-1.0, but estimate is "below 1" - but below 1 for 3 weeks - so time to move forward in careful relaxation.

    It's been below one for three weeks. I thought she was saying it was above 1 last week?
    Only in the minds of Tories trying to score points Rob.
    My mistake. I've just looked back and it was that she couldn't be sure it was significantly below one which is fair enough. I do remember there being some issue with her using the R number as justification for keeping things as they were but then not knowing what it is. Perhaps that was not knowing it during the briefing itself.
This discussion has been closed.