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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Thanks for interesting header. This was the main reason I voted Remain. To support the vision of the nations of Europe being inextricably bound together in a high degree of joint enterprise. If this vision were to collapse there is a grave risk that insular, aggressive nationalism would spread like an R=5 virus.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Jonathan said:

    One similarity between Starmer path to power and Smith/Blair’s In he 90s is that the Lib Dem’s are starting fro an anaemic position and some recovery there is useful to chip away soft Tory votes in places Labour cannot reach. The LDs need to find a decent leader who can work with Labour and create a bit of anti Tory momentum.

    The key difference is Scotland. Unless Starmer can find a way to attack the flabby soft blue underbelly in the south (which is entirely possible) he has to fight two fronts.

    Or just give up on Scotland and let the SNP stop the Tories?

    He doesn't need to get Sturgeon in the cabinet, just dare her to vote down a Labour budget and explain to her country why she let the Tories back in.
    Literally giving up on Scotland and supporting independence might be a good strategy to win over England.
    I'm not advocating supporting Independence, my point is that trying to actively try to win seats in Scotland seems like a waste of resources. They can repeat publicly the views they are pro-Unionism, etc. I just think whether they lose in Scotland or not is really irrelevant at this point.
    Being pro-union while going soft on the SNP means they will look like a poor imitation of the Tories. Actively changing their position on the union would allow them to position themselves as a patriotic people's party for England and make them a much harder target.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    I'd reply with a love heart emoji if it existed on here. Great post. x
    ❤️
  • Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    The rest of the country doesn't care what London thinks.
    That's not my point, my point is that his actions historically haven't made him popular.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    How long have you been in lockdown?

    Get out of central London more.
  • Jonathan said:

    One similarity between Starmer path to power and Smith/Blair’s In he 90s is that the Lib Dem’s are starting fro an anaemic position and some recovery there is useful to chip away soft Tory votes in places Labour cannot reach. The LDs need to find a decent leader who can work with Labour and create a bit of anti Tory momentum.

    The key difference is Scotland. Unless Starmer can find a way to attack the flabby soft blue underbelly in the south (which is entirely possible) he has to fight two fronts.

    Or just give up on Scotland and let the SNP stop the Tories?

    He doesn't need to get Sturgeon in the cabinet, just dare her to vote down a Labour budget and explain to her country why she let the Tories back in.
    Literally giving up on Scotland and supporting independence might be a good strategy to win over England.
    I'm not advocating supporting Independence, my point is that trying to actively try to win seats in Scotland seems like a waste of resources. They can repeat publicly the views they are pro-Unionism, etc. I just think whether they lose in Scotland or not is really irrelevant at this point.
    Being pro-union while going soft on the SNP means they will look like a poor imitation of the Tories. Actively changing their position on the union would allow them to position themselves as a patriotic people's party for England and make them a much harder target.
    You can do all of that - and I agree with you - whilst deep down accepting Scotland is basically a lost cause.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Jonathan said:

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    I'd reply with a love heart emoji if it existed on here. Great post. x
    ❤️
    Oh!

    Come on, spill the beans. What are the keystrokes please? ;)
  • Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    How long have you been in lockdown?

    Get out of central London more.
    Again, that wasn't my point. My point was that his actions historically have not made him popular.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    For all that I can criticise Johnson he proved during the election campaign that he could win support for a vision of the future. Optimistically you might say we have two halves of a good political leader.

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.
    In time we will come to see if Johnson won that election, or Corbyn lost it.

    I maintain the view that Johnson isn't popular, he was just less unpopular than his opponent (albeit, a lot).
    If tgat was the case May would have won in 2017 over Corbyn.

    Boris is popular and charismatic, the most electorally successful Tory leader since Thatcher in terms of size of majority as well as having twice
    won the Mayoralty of London and led the winning Leave campaign.

    Boris also has an appeal to blue collar, working class voters no Tory leader has had since Thatcher too. In fact even more so in the North and Midlands
    May *did* win over Corbyn, she was again less unpopular than him. Corbyn at that stage was just less unpopular than he was in 2019.

    I'm of the view strongly that Johnson isn't popular, he might be popular for at best, with just under half the country, around 40% I'd say is his natural approval, so 60% disapproval.

    Johnson won in 2019 because Corbyn was deeply unpopular and had a terrible Brexit policy (and I say that in hindsight, having been one of those that supported it).
    The Tories are currently polling 50% or more in most polls, not 40%. May also failed to win a majority against Corbyn.

    In fact arguably Boris is the most popular Tory leader since Churchill after winning the war at the moment but unlike Churchill in 1945 Boris was able to convert that popularity into a Tory landslide in 2019
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    ydoethur said:

    It is however unlikely that the government will collapse in acrimonious factionalism and parliamentary chaos as Major’s did. There is no equivalent of Lamont or Duncan Smith stirring up trouble on the backbenches because he has purged them all. There is nobody of status or principle left in the party anyway.

    While it may be true that there is nobody (or few at any rate) of status and principle left, it is not true to say that there are no idiots on the backbenches willing to stir up trouble. IDS is one of them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    In the past 100 years, Calvin Coolidge is the only sitting president to have won a second term in the wake of a recent recession.

    Telegraph

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    The rest of the country doesn't care what London thinks.
    That's not my point, my point is that his actions historically haven't made him popular.
    Given how London voted last time he probably has more upside than downside in 2024
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited May 2020

    Jonathan said:

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    I'd reply with a love heart emoji if it existed on here. Great post. x
    ❤️
    Oh!

    Come on, spill the beans. What are the keystrokes please? ;)
    🤷‍♂️

    You have two routes.

    1 use the emoji keyboard on your mobile device
    2 type a colon and ‘heart’ and another colon.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Jonathan said:

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    I'd reply with a love heart emoji if it existed on here. Great post. x
    ❤️
    Oh!

    Come on, spill the beans. What are the keystrokes please? ;)
    Whoops...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Jonathan said:

    One similarity between Starmer path to power and Smith/Blair’s In he 90s is that the Lib Dem’s are starting fro an anaemic position and some recovery there is useful to chip away soft Tory votes in places Labour cannot reach. The LDs need to find a decent leader who can work with Labour and create a bit of anti Tory momentum.

    The key difference is Scotland. Unless Starmer can find a way to attack the flabby soft blue underbelly in the south (which is entirely possible) he has to fight two fronts.

    Or just give up on Scotland and let the SNP stop the Tories?

    He doesn't need to get Sturgeon in the cabinet, just dare her to vote down a Labour budget and explain to her country why she let the Tories back in.
    The Tories being in power in Westminster is what Nicola wants. She will vote down any queen's speech that doesn't include a second indyref. It will be Starmer in Nicola's pocket this time. Labour needs to find a way to win without the SNP whether that's by wining seats in Scotland or more in England they can't go into the election being very obviously dependent on the SNP to get into power, you just won't win.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    For all that I can criticise Johnson he proved during the election campaign that he could win support for a vision of the future. Optimistically you might say we have two halves of a good political leader.

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.
    In time we will come to see if Johnson won that election, or Corbyn lost it.

    I maintain the view that Johnson isn't popular, he was just less unpopular than his opponent (albeit, a lot).
    If tgat was the case May would have won in 2017 over Corbyn.

    Boris is popular and charismatic, the most electorally successful Tory leader since Thatcher in terms of size of majority as well as having twice
    won the Mayoralty of London and led the winning Leave campaign.

    Boris also has an appeal to blue collar, working class voters no Tory leader has had since Thatcher too. In fact even more so in the North and Midlands
    May *did* win over Corbyn, she was again less unpopular than him. Corbyn at that stage was just less unpopular than he was in 2019.

    I'm of the view strongly that Johnson isn't popular, he might be popular for at best, with just under half the country, around 40% I'd say is his natural approval, so 60% disapproval.

    Johnson won in 2019 because Corbyn was deeply unpopular and had a terrible Brexit policy (and I say that in hindsight, having been one of those that supported it).
    The Tories are currently polling 50% or more in most polls, not 40%. May also failed to win a majority against Corbyn.

    In fact arguably Boris is the most popular Tory leader since Churchill after winning the war at the moment but unlike Churchill in 1945 Boris was able to convert that popularity into a Tory landslide in 2019
    They're polling 50% in a crisis, let's see where those polls are in 4 years time.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2020

    Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    I think there's a lot of truth in that. I've been surprised at how vehement people are there about his tenure as mayor: full of hot air, vacuous ill-conceived plans, white elephant projects like the ridiculous cable car to nowhere, bluff and bluster.

    Who'd have thought it?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is however unlikely that the government will collapse in acrimonious factionalism and parliamentary chaos as Major’s did. There is no equivalent of Lamont or Duncan Smith stirring up trouble on the backbenches because he has purged them all. There is nobody of status or principle left in the party anyway.

    While it may be true that there is nobody (or few at any rate) of status and principle left, it is not true to say that there are no idiots on the backbenches willing to stir up trouble. IDS is one of them.
    Would Duncan Smith revolt against Johnson, who gave him Brexit? Seriously?

    Surely even he isn’t that dim.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    My sister (then c.28) visited Katchanburi, and was numbed by the sheer number of graves of men who hadn't reached that age.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    Jonathan said:

    One similarity between Starmer path to power and Smith/Blair’s In he 90s is that the Lib Dem’s are starting fro an anaemic position and some recovery there is useful to chip away soft Tory votes in places Labour cannot reach. The LDs need to find a decent leader who can work with Labour and create a bit of anti Tory momentum.

    The key difference is Scotland. Unless Starmer can find a way to attack the flabby soft blue underbelly in the south (which is entirely possible) he has to fight two fronts.

    Or just give up on Scotland and let the SNP stop the Tories?

    He doesn't need to get Sturgeon in the cabinet, just dare her to vote down a Labour budget and explain to her country why she let the Tories back in.
    Literally giving up on Scotland and supporting independence might be a good strategy to win over England.
    I'm not advocating supporting Independence, my point is that trying to actively try to win seats in Scotland seems like a waste of resources. They can repeat publicly the views they are pro-Unionism, etc. I just think whether they lose in Scotland or not is really irrelevant at this point.
    Being pro-union while going soft on the SNP means they will look like a poor imitation of the Tories. Actively changing their position on the union would allow them to position themselves as a patriotic people's party for England and make them a much harder target.
    No it would make them look a poor imitation of the SNP and they would lose their Unionist voters to the Tories and LDs while unless they went for a pro hard Brexit position they would not win back the Leave voting working class in England either but that in turn would lose them middle class Remainers to the LDs and Greens while looking a poor imitation of Boris' Tories
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited May 2020

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    I'd reply with a love heart emoji if it existed on here. Great post. x
    ❤️
    Oh!

    Come on, spill the beans. What are the keystrokes please? ;)
    🤷‍♂️

    You have two routes.

    1 use the emoji keyboard on your mobile device
    2 type a colon and ‘heart’ and another colon.

    On PC's you can bring up the emoji keyboard using the Windows Key and Semicolon simultaneously.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    FPT

    Mike has long championed 'approval ratings' as the best indicator of voter intention and I think this is correct. The steady erosion of the Government's credibility is not good for the Conservatives. I think we all (myself included) had hoped the return of Boris would see us leap ahead but instead we have continued to experience misinformation, leaks, confusing signals, bluster and a general sense that they don't know what they are doing.

    Well, here he is at prime minister’s questions this week. I quote at length and include the ums and ers because the halting prolixity, waffle and intellectual confusion need to be flagged up. An increasingly formidable Sir Keir Starmer had asked why Britain had abandoned its testing programme in March, only to resume it now.

    The prime minister: “A-a-as I think is readily apparent, Mr Speaker, to everybody who has studied the, er, the situation, and I think the scientists would, er, confirm, the difficulty in mid-March was that, er, the, er, tracing capacity that we had — it had been useful … in the containment phase of the epidemic er, that capacity was no longer useful or relevant, since the, er, transmission from individuals within the UK um meant that it exceeded our capacity. … [A]as we get the new cases down, er, we will have a team that will genuinely be able to track and, er, trace hundreds of thousands of people across the country, and thereby to drive down the epidemic. And so, er, I mean, to put it in a nutshell, it is easier, er, to do now — now that we have built up the team on the, on the way out — than it was as er, the epidemic took off …”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/boris-johnson-needs-to-take-control-of-the-cockpit-25t0tw7ck
    :)

    One thing that really struck me yesterday is that Boris Johnson is no Winston Churchill.
    Winston Churchill was also no Boris, at least in terms of electoral appeal, Churchill never won a majority as big as Boris has.

    Churchill was the better statesman of course
    This crisis needed a statesman. Someone to speak succinctly, authoritatively and collectively. To speak with a clear voice from a depth of wisdom, insight and foresight. To unite us as one people with a common goal.

    Actually, we do have one.

    Her Majesty the Queen
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    ydoethur said:

    Would Duncan Smith revolt against Johnson, who gave him Brexit? Seriously?

    Surely even he isn’t that dim.

    What odds will you give me ? :smile:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    Didn't you think the cones hotline was a fantastic idea?
    I think to an extent Major and the cones hotline in particular was unfairly derided. I often sit in stationary traffic with two lanes coned off and not a workman in sight for days on end and think to myself, if only I could complain to someone who could stop this madness. The cones hotline is what I crave.

    When the red top press decide they don't like someone, that person is damned if they do and are damned if they don't. To my mind Major's biggest faux Pas was the moral crusade (iirc unmarried mothers on the St Mellon's Estate in Cardiff were singled out as moral degenerates) only for news to emerge that Major had been shagging Edwina Currie.
    Shagging Ms Currie was negative on two fronts, of course. Not just the moral one.

    More seriously, some years ago I was done for speeding and went on the course, where part at least of the reason for miles of cones with b$%%^r all happening was to allow roads to finish 'hardening up'. There was also a need, IIRC, for access for the workers.
    Doesn't make it any less frustrating for the driver in the queue of course.
  • Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly.
    This is the question that I don't know the answer to, is the soft Tory/former Lib Dem vote as structurally unsound as the Labour vote was?

    In 2019, although it didn't convert to any gains, the support for the Lib Dems in my 20,000 Tory seat was the most insane thing I've ever seen. In seats with much smaller majorities, real damage might be done? Who knows.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly.
    It can, but that doesn't change an iota of what I wrote.

    Its quite plausible the result ends up with a Tory majority in England, but Lab minority government with SNP support in Westminster, in which case governing England will be nigh on impossible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    And that would, if sustained, be a bloody good thing for everybody. Let’s hope it keeps going.
  • Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly.
    It can, but that doesn't change an iota of what I wrote.

    Its quite plausible the result ends up with a Tory majority in England, but Lab minority government with SNP support in Westminster, in which case governing England will be nigh on impossible.
    Which is why IMHO, Labour would be best to try and ensure a Lib Dem revival.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Would Duncan Smith revolt against Johnson, who gave him Brexit? Seriously?

    Surely even he isn’t that dim.

    What odds will you give me ? :smile:
    Ummm...

    *Thinks hard about Iain Duncan Smith’s career*

    No bet...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    In the past 100 years, Calvin Coolidge is the only sitting president to have won a second term in the wake of a recent recession.

    Telegraph

    The US was still coming out of recession when Obama beat Romney in 2012
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Must have been a very unusual fart if it came from a bush...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    HYUFD said:

    In the past 100 years, Calvin Coolidge is the only sitting president to have won a second term in the wake of a recent recession.

    Telegraph

    The US was still coming out of recession when Obama beat Romney in 2012
    Roosevelt won a third one in 1940 after the recession of 1937-38.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    Maybe, buy the difference is we're in power and will have retail offers for our Southern base. We're not likely to ignore them like Labour did with its own base for so many years.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    Maybe, buy the difference is we're in power and will have retail offers for our Southern base. We're not likely to ignore them like Labour did with its own base for so many years.
    Talking about retail offers while all the shops are closed is ironic. How will you pay for them?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Off topic. I am sure that I am late to this, but just realised that Apple’s FaceID is not going to work with masks in a post lockdown world. Everyone will be taking their masks off to use they phones, that’s not a good thing.
  • Jonathan said:

    Off topic. I am sure that I am late to this, but just realised that Apple’s FaceID is not going to work with masks in a post lockdown world. Everyone will be taking their masks off to use they phones, that’s not a good thing.

    Apple already thought of that.

    https://www.cnet.com/how-to/apple-wants-to-make-face-id-work-better-with-your-face-mask-heres-what-we-know-update/
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    Must have been a very unusual fart if it came from a bush...
    Reading the story it's reported that the police were off the scent until ......
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    FPT

    Mike has long championed 'approval ratings' as the best indicator of voter intention and I think this is correct. The steady erosion of the Government's credibility is not good for the Conservatives. I think we all (myself included) had hoped the return of Boris would see us leap ahead but instead we have continued to experience misinformation, leaks, confusing signals, bluster and a general sense that they don't know what they are doing.

    Well, here he is at prime minister’s questions this week. I quote at length and include the ums and ers because the halting prolixity, waffle and intellectual confusion need to be flagged up. An increasingly formidable Sir Keir Starmer had asked why Britain had abandoned its testing programme in March, only to resume it now.

    The prime minister: “A-a-as I think is readily apparent, Mr Speaker, to everybody who has studied the, er, the situation, and I think the scientists would, er, confirm, the difficulty in mid-March was that, er, the, er, tracing capacity that we had — it had been useful … in the containment phase of the epidemic er, that capacity was no longer useful or relevant, since the, er, transmission from individuals within the UK um meant that it exceeded our capacity. … [A]as we get the new cases down, er, we will have a team that will genuinely be able to track and, er, trace hundreds of thousands of people across the country, and thereby to drive down the epidemic. And so, er, I mean, to put it in a nutshell, it is easier, er, to do now — now that we have built up the team on the, on the way out — than it was as er, the epidemic took off …”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/boris-johnson-needs-to-take-control-of-the-cockpit-25t0tw7ck
    :)

    One thing that really struck me yesterday is that Boris Johnson is no Winston Churchill
    .
    Winston Churchill was also no Boris, at least in terms of electoral appeal, Churchill never won a majority as big as Boris has.

    Churchill was the better statesman of course
    Churchill never won a popular vote.

  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Jonathan said:

    Off topic. I am sure that I am late to this, but just realised that Apple’s FaceID is not going to work with masks in a post lockdown world. Everyone will be taking their masks off to use they phones, that’s not a good thing.

    Apple have thought of that - iOS 13.5 is going to make it easier to unlock your phone while wearing a maak
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly.
    It can, but that doesn't change an iota of what I wrote.

    Its quite plausible the result ends up with a Tory majority in England, but Lab minority government with SNP support in Westminster, in which case governing England will be nigh on impossible.
    Which is why IMHO, Labour would be best to try and ensure a Lib Dem revival.
    Indeed, Esher and Walton and Wokingham and Cities of London and Westminster are now more likely to be lost by the Tories to the LDs than Great Grimsby or Bishop Auckland or Harlow are to be lost to Labour.

    Blair never won the former unlike the latter yet the latter have bigger Tory majorities now than the former
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    And that would, if sustained, be a bloody good thing for everybody. Let’s hope it keeps going.
    An end to safe seats would be the best thing to happen to democracy. A clearout of the fiefdoms and closed networks operating the Tory south would be a breath of fresh air.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited May 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Must have been a very unusual fart if it came from a bush...
    That's the village with the local Aldi and Asda to us. It wasn't me before anyone asks :p
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Off topic. I am sure that I am late to this, but just realised that Apple’s FaceID is not going to work with masks in a post lockdown world. Everyone will be taking their masks off to use they phones, that’s not a good thing.

    Apple have thought of that - iOS 13.5 is going to make it easier to unlock your phone while wearing a maak
    Type in a code or lower security?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly.
    It can, but that doesn't change an iota of what I wrote.

    Its quite plausible the result ends up with a Tory majority in England, but Lab minority government with SNP support in Westminster, in which case governing England will be nigh on impossible.
    Which is why IMHO, Labour would be best to try and ensure a Lib Dem revival.
    No, Labour needs to rely on a Labour revival. Your route to power needs to be a majority not a coalition or minority. If you then get to 312 seats and get 20 Lib Dems on side it's fine but you can't go down the road of claiming victory because you got the Tories to under 325 seats, that kind of campaign will just result in another 60-80 seat majority for us.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    In the past 100 years, Calvin Coolidge is the only sitting president to have won a second term in the wake of a recent recession.

    Telegraph

    The US was still coming out of recession when Obama beat Romney in 2012
    Roosevelt won a third one in 1940 after the recession of 1937-38.
    In any case, Coolidge (a) didn’t really win a second term (as he had replaced Harding in 1923) and (b) it was a very mild recession, a dip in the manufacturing index, compared to the depression of 1920 that the Dems were still blamed for.

    So it is yet another stupid comment by the Telegraph. Honestly, I’m at the stage where I’d trust the Mail ahead of them.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    And that would, if sustained, be a bloody good thing for everybody. Let’s hope it keeps going.
    An end to safe seats would be the best thing to happen to democracy. A clearout of the fiefdoms and closed networks operating the Tory south would be a breath of fresh air.
    STV??????
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It is however unlikely that the government will collapse in acrimonious factionalism and parliamentary chaos as Major’s did. There is no equivalent of Lamont or Duncan Smith stirring up trouble on the backbenches because he has purged them all. There is nobody of status or principle left in the party anyway.

    Even if there were, there is limited risk of disciplinary implosion because he has a substantial majority (ironically, the sort Major would have had in 1992 on a UNS) so even if there were rebels they could not hold the government to ransom - and therefore, paradoxically, there are less likely to be rebels.

    At the same time, Starmer does have a small, enfeebled party behind him and a potential focus for discontent in Macdonald and Burgon on the backbenches, who have not got the message yet. Hopefully, however, everyone else has and will back any changes Starmer makes.

    So Starmer’s obstacles are more formidable. That is not to say they are insurmountable. If he is no Blair, Johnson is no Major. He has neither his intelligence nor his determination.
    I would agree with almost everything you suggest, save for your underestimation of what a duplicitous bunch Tory MPs are. With friends like Michael Gove...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    And that would, if sustained, be a bloody good thing for everybody. Let’s hope it keeps going.
    An end to safe seats would be the best thing to happen to democracy. A clearout of the fiefdoms and closed networks operating the Tory south would be a breath of fresh air.
    An end to the rotten boroughs in the Welsh Valleys too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Jonathan said:

    One similarity between Starmer path to power and Smith/Blair’s In he 90s is that the Lib Dem’s are starting fro an anaemic position and some recovery there is useful to chip away soft Tory votes in places Labour cannot reach. The LDs need to find a decent leader who can work with Labour and create a bit of anti Tory momentum.

    The key difference is Scotland. Unless Starmer can find a way to attack the flabby soft blue underbelly in the south (which is entirely possible) he has to fight two fronts.

    Or just give up on Scotland and let the SNP stop the Tories?

    He doesn't need to get Sturgeon in the cabinet, just dare her to vote down a Labour budget and explain to her country why she let the Tories back in.
    Literally giving up on Scotland and supporting independence might be a good strategy to win over England.
    I'm not advocating supporting Independence, my point is that trying to actively try to win seats in Scotland seems like a waste of resources. They can repeat publicly the views they are pro-Unionism, etc. I just think whether they lose in Scotland or not is really irrelevant at this point.
    Being pro-union while going soft on the SNP means they will look like a poor imitation of the Tories. Actively changing their position on the union would allow them to position themselves as a patriotic people's party for England and make them a much harder target.
    What about a policy of offering a tripartite referendum on FFA, Indy, Status Quo, and campaigning for FFA?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    PBers have now (mostly) learned how to spell Sir Keir’s given name, which marks progress of sorts.

    Onward!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    How long have you been in lockdown?

    Get out of central London more.
    Again, that wasn't my point. My point was that his actions historically have not made him popular.
    Boris didn't win the mayoralty in central London.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2020
    The John Smith - Keir Starmer comparison is interesting.

    The guess is that Smith would still have won in 1997 but probably with less of the charismatic Blair surge.

    Starmer faces a different type of opponent to John Major. An assured pair of hands may appeal more to middle England because by 2024 Boris' lustre will have well and truly disappeared 'if' he continues in his current vein. I really thought he would come back and take charge but if anything things seem more chaotic now than they did with Raab holding the reins. If you take a step back and look at the briefings, mis-briefings, mixed messages, counter-claims, contradictions, backtracks, leaks, mis-leaks, more leaks, more mis-leaks of this past week alone it is chaos and shambles.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    PBers have now (mostly) learned how to spell Sir Keir’s given name, which marks progress of sorts.

    Onward!

    It is good. Too many people were Keirless about that.

    Ah, my coat...
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    PBers have now (mostly) learned how to spell Sir Keir’s given name, which marks progress of sorts.

    Onward!

    Sir Keir the Brexit Blocking Lawyer ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited May 2020
    dr_spyn said:

    I've been to Katchanaburi, the Death Railway and the bridge over the river 'Kwai.'

    The museum and cemetery at Katchanaburi is one of the most harrowing experiences I've ever seen. I wept at graves of people I never knew who lie buried an awfully long way from home.

    I've been to a few military cemeteries but Katchanburi's the most harrowing. Dying in battle is one thing but dying of maltreatment and neglect because your captors believe that surrender is dishonourable seems different. And, as my wife said, they were, with one exception, all so young.

    Otherwise the grave which I recall is someone in Germany who died on May 6th 1945. I have no idea who he was, or anything about him, but I always think of his family when there are 'end of the war' celebrations.
    My sister (then c.28) visited Katchanburi, and was numbed by the sheer number of graves of men who hadn't reached that age.
    My Sister in Law comes from the small Baltic fishing port of Eckenforde, a sort of German Brixham. There was a submarine school there and nearly all the, local men went into U boats. There are a phenomenal number of names on the memorial.

    What struck me most though was the dates of death, continuing right through to the mid 1950's. PoW in the USSR mostly*.

    It is a reminder too that for many the war didn’t end in May 1945. The institutions outlined in the header were mainly for Europeans. In the Far East our war aim was to restore the empire, as it was too for French, Dutch and even the Americans. Outside Europe the 1940s and 1950s were a time of nationalist uprisings against weakened empires.

    * Including two uncles of my SiL. My father remarked rather unsympathetically, "shouldn't have been there in the first place".
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly.
    It can, but that doesn't change an iota of what I wrote.

    Its quite plausible the result ends up with a Tory majority in England, but Lab minority government with SNP support in Westminster, in which case governing England will be nigh on impossible.
    Which is why IMHO, Labour would be best to try and ensure a Lib Dem revival.
    No, Labour needs to rely on a Labour revival. Your route to power needs to be a majority not a coalition or minority. If you then get to 312 seats and get 20 Lib Dems on side it's fine but you can't go down the road of claiming victory because you got the Tories to under 325 seats, that kind of campaign will just result in another 60-80 seat majority for us.
    Great post. Spot on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    PBers have now (mostly) learned how to spell Sir Keir’s given name, which marks progress of sorts.

    Onward!

    Skyr.....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    The post War liberal ascendancy came about in reaction to the horrors of the War. Liberals were the big losers of the conflicts of the 1930s. Never again.

    That liberal ascendancy has been under sustained attack in the past twenty years or so, when liberals made a poor job of justifying globalisation to those that perceived they weren't benefiting, and particularly since the Credit Crunch when ordinary people were left with the bills of feckless international bankers.

    China clearly doesn't have an interest in the liberal international order when they see the prize of a Chinese order instead. The Trump tendency has opted out, as has the Brexiteer crowd misruling Britain; several European countries are in the hands of autocrats. Can the beleaguered internationalists in the European Union and a few other places hold the fort for liberalism?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Any change would need to very carefully done. Accusations of partisan vindictiveness would be inevitable and should not prevent reform if there is justification for reform, but some people will want to take advantage. Parties made the law overly complicated so they could claim confusion when issues arise, despite having the internal resources to ensure they are not confused. So problems with the commission are not the only issue.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    There does seem to be a whiff of the Theresa May years about post recovery Boris’s dumb big govt timidity.

    Big day tomorrow - will his right flank begin to subside dramatically afterwards ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Moth du Jour: Blood-vein




  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    By 1997 Major's government was universally detested and Major himself derided as a joke. That quite possibly might be the view of Johnson and his government by 2024. I can't envision Covid-19 and its aftershock playing well for incumbent governments across the globe.

    Starmer looks and sounds the part which may be all it needs. Johnson did not offer a vision save for 'get Brexit done'. Remember Jeremy had an alternative, it was just an alternative vision no one else shared.
    It can't be understated also how in 2024, the Government won't be able to play the "new and fresh" card again. 13 years of Government will be eating into them, people will be ready for a change, IMHO.
    If that change isn't perceived as bats**t crazy like last time its a real risk yes.
    Also, it is often forgotten, but Starmer gaining a majority is almost inconceivable without some kind of revival in Scotland.
    The real constitutionally-impossible situation that is quite plausible is Tories win England but a Lab minority backed by the SNP takes Westminster, though any time SNP abstains means the Tories have a majority.

    Given the SNP won't vote on England-only matters it means Labour would be incapable of properly governing England . . . and it will be in the SNP's interests to ensure Westminster is gummed up.

    Plus the SNP will demand an independence referendum but them winning it would hand England back to the Tories who had won in England.
    If the red wall can fall, so can the soft blue underbelly. If the experience of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that there are no safe seats.
    And that would, if sustained, be a bloody good thing for everybody. Let’s hope it keeps going.
    An end to safe seats would be the best thing to happen to democracy. A clearout of the fiefdoms and closed networks operating the Tory south would be a breath of fresh air.
    An end to the rotten boroughs in the Welsh Valleys too.
    A reduction in safe seats seems a more attainable goal than an end to them. There are some places, albeit far fewer, which support one party so strongly they will always be safe seats in any system unless you just have a national list or something.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Foxy said:

    My Sister in Law comes from the small Baltic fishing port of Eckenforde, a sort of German Brixham. There was a submarine school there and nearly all the, local men went into U boats. There are a phenomenal number of names on the memorial.

    I once asked a friend, an expert in military history, whether being a U-boat crewman in WWII was very dangerous.

    I well remember his answer.

    ‘No. If you were British or American, it was very dangerous. If you were German, it was a stone certainty.’
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    As usual from Mr Herdson an interesting and thought provoking piece. Much as I’d never wish ill health on anyone, the news that Trump staffers are coming down with COVID has me sorely tempted.

    But Trump isn’t the root of the problem - his eventual departure will still leave a lot of disenchanted Americans who feel the system is against them - and “Trump 2” might be even worse.

    Trump is giving a massive boost to anti-American sentiment worldwide. UK is still probably the most pro-USA country in Europe and barely anyone has a good word to say for him outside of the Farage/Banks axis.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Scott_xP said:

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.

    When he was Mayor, nobody who worked for him was a threat to his job, and none of them had previously "betrayed" him so he could appoint on merit.

    Neither is true now
    He's also now mostly despised in London.
    I think there's a lot of truth in that. I've been surprised at how vehement people are there about his tenure as mayor: full of hot air, vacuous ill-conceived plans, white elephant projects like the ridiculous cable car to nowhere, bluff and bluster.

    Who'd have thought it?
    There are still no bridges east of Tower Bridge until you get to Tilbury.

    Instead of building the absolutely needed Thames Gateway bridge, Bozza wasted millions on a Garden Bridge that nobody wanted and was never built and a cable car tourist trap that most Londoners have never used and never will.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Well why on earth did they think they were chosen over the better qualified candidates on the back benches?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    kle4 said:

    Any change would need to very carefully done. Accusations of partisan vindictiveness would be inevitable and should not prevent reform if there is justification for reform, but some people will want to take advantage. Parties made the law overly complicated so they could claim confusion when issues arise, despite having the internal resources to ensure they are not confused. So problems with the commission are not the only issue.
    The need for change is because the accusations of partisan vindictiveness are already there - and legion.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    kle4 said:

    Any change would need to very carefully done. Accusations of partisan vindictiveness would be inevitable and should not prevent reform if there is justification for reform, but some people will want to take advantage. Parties made the law overly complicated so they could claim confusion when issues arise, despite having the internal resources to ensure they are not confused. So problems with the commission are not the only issue.
    "A senior Whitehall source". :lol:
  • The current Tory cabinet has to be the worst in many years, most of them belong on the backbenches.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited May 2020
    I asked my mum what she did seventy five years ago for VE Day. I get the impression it was something of an anticlimax. They had been waiting for an announcement about the end of the war for days, but there was seemingly some delay. At the same time stuff was still going on in the Far East etc.

    She got the afternoon off school and her family went to a church service where they sang patriotic hymns.

    Edit she was laughing at the idea of VE Day themed tea parties and asked whether they were intending to bake cakes made without butter, sugar and eggs but with a kind of artificial cream made from horse serum.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    One similarity between Starmer path to power and Smith/Blair’s In he 90s is that the Lib Dem’s are starting fro an anaemic position and some recovery there is useful to chip away soft Tory votes in places Labour cannot reach. The LDs need to find a decent leader who can work with Labour and create a bit of anti Tory momentum.

    The key difference is Scotland. Unless Starmer can find a way to attack the flabby soft blue underbelly in the south (which is entirely possible) he has to fight two fronts.

    Or just give up on Scotland and let the SNP stop the Tories?

    He doesn't need to get Sturgeon in the cabinet, just dare her to vote down a Labour budget and explain to her country why she let the Tories back in.
    Literally giving up on Scotland and supporting independence might be a good strategy to win over England.
    I'm not advocating supporting Independence, my point is that trying to actively try to win seats in Scotland seems like a waste of resources. They can repeat publicly the views they are pro-Unionism, etc. I just think whether they lose in Scotland or not is really irrelevant at this point.
    Being pro-union while going soft on the SNP means they will look like a poor imitation of the Tories. Actively changing their position on the union would allow them to position themselves as a patriotic people's party for England and make them a much harder target.
    What about a policy of offering a tripartite referendum on FFA, Indy, Status Quo, and campaigning for FFA?
    It's wonkish and unconvincing.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Would it not be more exact to say that the evidence against him was not strong enough to guarantee a conviction?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    CYCLEFREE’S GARDENING CORNER

    FPT for @dixiedean

    “Right you've convinced me. Later this week I shall lose my thirty pound land virginity. I remain to be convinced it will have a lasting positive effect on my mental health.”

    I would be delighted to advise on what you need to buy! Could I not be taken on such visits as a buyer - like those art buyers poncey rich people have? I will wear my mask - made on my sewing machine last night and very fetching - you tell me the budget and I will blow it. It will do wonders for your garden and my mental health! 😀

    Stay away from the tat though. Agapanthus, peonies, dahlias, crocosmias, geums and foxgloves will be starting to come through. One tip: never buy plants that are in full flower because the flowering will not last long once you are home, unless you are good at deadheading or it is a plant which will repeat flower. Buy plants with plenty of buds so you - rather than the garden centre - get the full benefit.

    And check the roots. Many plants will likely be pot bound with the roots would tightly round and round. Ideally, you don’t want these as they take a bit longer to get established in the ground unless you pull the roots a bit to allow them to spread.

    Have fun!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    The current Tory cabinet has to be the worst in many years, most of them belong on the backbenches.

    I think you’re rather generous there.

    I wouldn’t want the likes of Patel or Raab on a parish council, never mind the backbenches of the Commons.

    That said, there are even worse nutters behind them (Francois, anybody)?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    FF43 said:

    I asked my mum what she did seventy five years ago for VE Day. I get the impression it was something of an anticlimax. They had been waiting for an announcement about the end of the war for days, but there was seemingly some delay. At the same time stuff was still going on in the Far East etc.

    She got the afternoon off school and her family went to a church service where they sang patriotic hymns.

    Sounds a lot like Brexit day...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Is it okay to think that Starmer might genuinely be a very good LOTO and the best one since Blair?

    What made Blair so effective was that he opposed surgically, but also that he could compellingly spell out an alternative. I am very confident Starmer can do the first, much less convinced he can do the latter. But given what Labour has offered for the last decade, I’m happy to take that. I suspect it’s not enough to win a majority, though.

    For all that I can criticise Johnson he proved during the election campaign that he could win support for a vision of the future. Optimistically you might say we have two halves of a good political leader.

    The hope, from Johnson's days as Mayor of London, was that he would have competent details people serving under him, as with his cycling commissioner. Thus far the evidence on that is not good.
    In time we will come to see if Johnson won that election, or Corbyn lost it.

    I maintain the view that Johnson isn't popular, he was just less unpopular than his opponent (albeit, a lot).
    It's never one or the other. Johnson was clearly much helped by his opponent being Corbyn but you dont win by such a large margin without having skills and popularity to exploit that. Similarly, Corbyn was much helped in 2017 by his opponent being May but you dont close the gap as significantly as he did as quickly as he did without having the skills and popularity (however temporarily) to exploit that.

    I didnt think Boris would win outright let alone so big, and I was wrong about that mostly because I thought it was mostly him being less unpopular than that he had any actual popularity. The outcome says otherwise. I still dont like him, but he garnered genuine support not just benefited from the disgruntled labour ranks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Boris Johnson, of course, knows all about undoing things.

    His flies, for starters...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Ultimately Labour needs to have a reason for people to vote Labour other than "get the Tories out". That doesn't resonate with 50% of the population, a primary campaign message needs to fish from a larger pool.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited May 2020
    Or they lost the argument?

    https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNewsUK/status/1259042461520977920?s=20
    Senior ministers have expressed fury at what one described as “weeks of insane briefing” to the media, accusing government hawks of trying to force Johnson into relaxing more measures, and claiming some newspapers were pursuing an anti-lockdown agenda because of fears about sales.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    ClippP said:

    Would it not be more exact to say that the evidence against him was not strong enough to guarantee a conviction?
    ClippP said:

    Would it not be more exact to say that the evidence against him was not strong enough to guarantee a conviction?
    technically perhaps but after so many investigations emphasising the technicalities would seem rather churlish and an effort to imply wrongdoing.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    I suspect a LibDem revival will be the natural consequence of a more electable Labour party.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    ydoethur said:

    Must have been a very unusual fart if it came from a bush...
    They are not unknown....
  • I suspect a LibDem revival will be the natural consequence of a more electable Labour party.

    Doing what Ed Miliband tried - and failed - to do.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    TGOHF666 said:

    There does seem to be a whiff of the Theresa May years about post recovery Boris’s dumb big govt timidity.

    Big day tomorrow - will his right flank begin to subside dramatically afterwards ?

    Garden centres. Does not sound much but it is. Softly softly catchee monkey.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    ClippP said:

    Would it not be more exact to say that the evidence against him was not strong enough to guarantee a conviction?
    Why did Darren feel powerless against a batty, lone wolf conspiracist.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    The current Tory cabinet has to be the worst in many years, most of them belong on the backbenches.

    Major's Cabinets from 1992 to 1997 were full of heavyweights Heseltine, Clarke, Hurd, Portillo, Howard, Redwood, Rifkind, Lilley etc but fat lot of good it did them in 1997
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    MaxPB said:

    Ultimately Labour needs to have a reason for people to vote Labour other than "get the Tories out". That doesn't resonate with 50% of the population, a primary campaign message needs to fish from a larger pool.

    A key weakness of Labour was that actually their campaign was very negative. One left wing economist couldn’t understand why ‘people didn’t seem to grasp they can have a nicer lifestyle at others’ expense. We clearly didn’t make them understand who the enemy is.’

    That’s the language of Donald Trump.

    The way to win is to explain how you will deliver secure jobs, nice housing and good public services. And also, how you will pay for them using something vaguely akin to fiscal reality. Beyond that, I don’t think most people care about whether others use private alternatives or have better houses.

    Did Johnson offer an alternative that matched this idea? No. But he offered to get Brexit done. That coupled with Labour’s incoherence and stupid policies was enough.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Promised myself a screen free day, but just wanted to thank David again for his article. I find it thoughtful and moving. Hope David finds a way to return to politics. I fear the Tory party has moved on, but hopefully there is a place for him somewhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited May 2020

    kle4 said:

    Any change would need to very carefully done. Accusations of partisan vindictiveness would be inevitable and should not prevent reform if there is justification for reform, but some people will want to take advantage. Parties made the law overly complicated so they could claim confusion when issues arise, despite having the internal resources to ensure they are not confused. So problems with the commission are not the only issue.
    The need for change is because the accusations of partisan vindictiveness are already there - and legion.
    I wasnt saying change might not be needed, the point was even when change is needed it needs to be carefully done and not over correct in partisan scoresettling.

    Take something like electoral boundaries as an example of a similar issue - if a benefit exists to one side it's fair to correct that even though that correction benefits the other, since its restoring balance. But changing things to benefit thr other side unfairly would not be a reasonable reaction.

    Change needs to be evidenced based, rational and fair. That would be justifiable. But given the emotiveness on this issue care needs to be taken that it isnt just a pile on of the commission because they are hated

    Its like the manifesto commitment to look at the courts. There are things to look at quite reasonably, but motivation was very clearly one of naked hostility because of recent decisions so it would be easy to go too far
This discussion has been closed.