Anyway, if there's any attempt at compulsion in tracking my movements via my mobile phone, I'll simply leave it at home.
In which case it is possible the government could require the police to conduct stop and search with arrest for those not carrying the mobile phone with tracing app
Since when has it been compulsory to own a Smart Phone? I have never owned and have no desire to purchase one. I barely use a basic mobile - most of my monthly bills are Zero. Is the State now going to supply this?
This is again really irresponsible to be publishing leaks on this stuff. Things are still in motion. This is a crucial moment, lots of false reporting or reporting certain rules (which are still under discussion) as fact, will only likely lead to confusion.
I have no problem with posting leaks when governments have shown to lie or mislead the public, but this isn't the case.
To be fair there's nothing controversial there, it's all pretty much common sense.
Probably, as he behaved both poorly in a serious way and dishonestly in reaction saving any genuine apology until the very end (ergo it was not in any way genuine but extracted grudgingly) though I hope we don’t one day go extreme and expect resignation over any breach.
I've just read the full report: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5801/cmselect/cmstandards/212/212.pdf. He should resign as an MP, and if he doesn't he should have the whip removed under the authority of BJ. His original abuse of power was compounded throughout the inquiry by deceit (he didn't really consult the Commons authorities properly as he claimed to have done) and obfuscation; he isn't fit to be an MP.
This is again really irresponsible to be publishing leaks on this stuff. Things are still in motion. This is a crucial moment, lots of false reporting or reporting certain rules (which are still under discussion) as fact, will only likely lead to confusion.
I have no problem with posting leaks when governments have shown to lie or mislead the public, but this isn't the case.
To be fair there's nothing controversial there, it's all pretty much common sense.
I know, but if they now spend the next 3 days reporting all this as fact and then some rules are changed after consultation. a) we will get the ridiculous "U-TURN" klaxon and b) I think it will cause some confusion as people will be but I am sure I heard the BBC / Sky say this was the rule.
This is again really irresponsible to be publishing leaks on this stuff. Things are still in motion. This is a crucial moment, lots of false reporting or reporting certain rules (which are still under discussion) as fact, will only likely lead to confusion.
I have no problem with posting leaks when governments have shown to lie or mislead the public, but this isn't the case.
Journalists are doing what journalists do.
I continue to be amazed at the PB-ers who excoriate journalists for doing their job and who seem to be happy with whatever crap the govt is coming out with.
Anyway, if there's any attempt at compulsion in tracking my movements via my mobile phone, I'll simply leave it at home.
In which case it is possible the government could require the police to conduct stop and search with arrest for those not carrying the mobile phone with tracing app
Since when has it been compulsory to own a Smart Phone? I have never owned and have no desire to purchase one. I barely use a basic mobile - most of my monthly bills are Zero. Is the State now going to supply this?
No. HYUFD is bearing no resemblance to reality once more.
It may seem hard to believe but even now some people choose not to own any mobile devices at all.
Another good reason for all moderate, non-headbanging Brexit-delusionaries to lend their support to SKS
Wouldn't it be better if he said it was or wasn't ending though ? I mean for clarity.
Sounds like Starmer is keeping the Single Market option open. His strategy seems to be 'Let's not mention Brexit". Either it will blow over or it will go pear shaped, at which point people will be looking for alternatives.
Yes, the next general election looks like continued hard Brexit and WTO terms with Boris or rejoin the single market with Starmer and the LDs and SNP
Which will be one of the reasons, "Boris" as you so lovingly refer to him as, will lose. The main reason will be that Starmer is not Corbyn or "Boris". And Bozo will be grateful, because he will have got the badge that he so longed to have, but he will no longer have to find ways to dodge the hard work
Meanwhile in the real world Boris has already won. If Labour wins after 14 years of Tory governments then so be it.
Sense "Boris" has become like Liverpool FC for you. In which case, fine, but you're on the hook for life. That's what true fandom is. 20 years from now, Liverpool might be wallowing in mid-table mediocrity and "Boris" might be doing a five stretch for something slippery and beyond the pale, but you - you will still have to keep churning out the love. This is the deal so I hope you are going in with eyes open.
You're right. I'm not a glory hunter, I support what I want to through thick and thin. What's wrong with that?
On sports I supported my clubs through thick and thin. I grew up used to disappointments, despite being born early 80s so can barely remember some Liverpool success my memories are more from the 90s.
I grew up in Australia in the 90s a "Pome Bastard" supporting English cricket during The Ashes. I remained an England fan through thick and thin surrounded by Australians in the 1990s. If that didn't break me what makes you think mid table mediocrity will do?
Same in politics. I am an unabashed liberal Conservative, aka a libertarian. I believe in economically dry, socially liberal Conservatives like Thatcher, Cameron and Johnson. I oppose social conservativism or left wing economics and my views don't change to match what the leadership of any particular party says. When May led the party I was vocal in opposition to "my" party because her vicious "Go Home" politics do not represent me.
Here is what you need to ponder. "Boris" is popular with a great many people who are decidedly not "socially liberal". It leaves 3 possibilities.
(i) He IS a social liberal and is fooling his Get Brexit Done base. (ii) He is NOT a social liberal and is fooling you (and those like you). (iii) He is devoid of core belief and is fooling EVERYONE who supports him.
You will be interested to hear that the most likely answer is a (i) with a generous helping of (iii).
What makes you think "Get Brexit Done" is socially illiberal?
What fills me with confidence is decades of listening to him speak. He has consistently been liberal - including during the referendum campaign. He isn't some Farage/IDS/HYUFD social conservative headbanger.
Some Brexit supporters are socially liberal but a large number are not. Those for whom Farage had great appeal, for example. Few social liberals there.
It's a 2+2 = 4 point again, Philip, I'm afraid. Best to just accept it.
You are right Farage is not socially liberal. I despise Farage.
But there is a reason Boris worked with Gove etc in Vote Leave and not Farage etc in Leave.EU - why do you think that is?
Because he is a social liberal fooling his Hard Brexit base. Or possibly devoid of core belief and thus fooling all who support him.
As per my original post. Which is looking impeccable.
Again Hard Brexit is not a social liberal v conservative issue.
Not exclusively. Of course not. Hard Brexiteers are not all Farage types. But lots of them are. And "Boris" managed to appeal to this section of the electorate. Hence Farage killed off and an 80 seat majority. Well done "Boris". To make them think he shares their values and world view when he doesn't took great political skill.
There - if we put it positively like that, so we don't say your hero "fooled" them, we say that it just shows what a "winner" he is, does this make you a teeny bit happier?
Winning depends upon building a big tent yes but he never fooled anyone and never pretended to be (or campaigned with) Farage.
"Boris" Johnson never fooled anyone. Priti Patel is a "social liberal".
These are fabulous. But don't go thinking you can never top them. That way lies decline.
I never said Patel is a social liberal I said she is more liberal than people give her credit for.
I see. She is "more liberal than people give her credit for" albeit not a "social liberal". But is she still a social conservative? Most certainly think so. Both supporters and opponents alike think that. However it sounds like you think she is less conservative socially than people give her credit for. Is she fooling that base again, I wonder.
Sky questioning 'why are we broadcasting a self appointed group of scientists'
This independent so called group of alternative scientists are identified by Guido and you could not make it up
Fortunately Sky were not impressed and the media need to be careful of this group spreading disinformation and causing confusion amongst the public
What is their technical expertise? For some reason Guido seems to have been wholly unable to research that.
Their technical expertise is pretty strong I think. Professors of public health, health economics, mathematical modelling of health care, thinktanker in racial inequality (Guido won't like that!), health psychology and behavior change. And of course a formed Chief Scientific Adviser. Will certainly be interesting to see what they say (and a wise government might pay attention...)
Anyway, if there's any attempt at compulsion in tracking my movements via my mobile phone, I'll simply leave it at home.
In which case it is possible the government could require the police to conduct stop and search with arrest for those not carrying the mobile phone with tracing app
Since when has it been compulsory to own a Smart Phone? I have never owned and have no desire to purchase one. I barely use a basic mobile - most of my monthly bills are Zero. Is the State now going to supply this?
Fine, provided you are willing to stay in the house until we get a vaccination.
If however lockdown and quarantine is to be eased then as in South Korea smartphone apps will be needed to track and trace and isolate those with symptoms and those they have been in contact with.
The state could supply phones and apps for those on low incomes if needed
Another good reason for all moderate, non-headbanging Brexit-delusionaries to lend their support to SKS
Wouldn't it be better if he said it was or wasn't ending though ? I mean for clarity.
Sounds like Starmer is keeping the Single Market option open. His strategy seems to be 'Let's not mention Brexit". Either it will blow over or it will go pear shaped, at which point people will be looking for alternatives.
Yes, the next general election looks like continued hard Brexit and WTO terms with Boris or rejoin the single market with Starmer and the LDs and SNP
Which will be one of the reasons, "Boris" as you so lovingly refer to him as, will lose. The main reason will be that Starmer is not Corbyn or "Boris". And Bozo will be grateful, because he will have got the badge that he so longed to have, but he will no longer have to find ways to dodge the hard work
Meanwhile in the real world Boris has already won. If Labour wins after 14 years of Tory governments then so be it.
Sense "Boris" has become like Liverpool FC for you. In which case, fine, but you're on the hook for life. That's what true fandom is. 20 years from now, Liverpool might be wallowing in mid-table mediocrity and "Boris" might be doing a five stretch for something slippery and beyond the pale, but you - you will still have to keep churning out the love. This is the deal so I hope you are going in with eyes open.
You're right. I'm not a glory hunter, I support what I want to through thick and thin. What's wrong with that?
On sports I supported my clubs through thick and thin. I grew up used to disappointments, despite being born early 80s so can barely remember some Liverpool success my memories are more from the 90s.
I grew up in Australia in the 90s a "Pome Bastard" supporting English cricket during The Ashes. I remained an England fan through thick and thin surrounded by Australians in the 1990s. If that didn't break me what makes you think mid table mediocrity will do?
Same in politics. I am an unabashed liberal Conservative, aka a libertarian. I believe in economically dry, socially liberal Conservatives like Thatcher, Cameron and Johnson. I oppose social conservativism or left wing economics and my views don't change to match what the leadership of any particular party says. When May led the party I was vocal in opposition to "my" party because her vicious "Go Home" politics do not represent me.
Here is what you need to ponder. "Boris" is popular with a great many people who are decidedly not "socially liberal". It leaves 3 possibilities.
(i) He IS a social liberal and is fooling his Get Brexit Done base. (ii) He is NOT a social liberal and is fooling you (and those like you). (iii) He is devoid of core belief and is fooling EVERYONE who supports him.
You will be interested to hear that the most likely answer is a (i) with a generous helping of (iii).
What makes you think "Get Brexit Done" is socially illiberal?
What fills me with confidence is decades of listening to him speak. He has consistently been liberal - including during the referendum campaign. He isn't some Farage/IDS/HYUFD social conservative headbanger.
Some Brexit supporters are socially liberal but a large number are not. Those for whom Farage had great appeal, for example. Few social liberals there.
It's a 2+2 = 4 point again, Philip, I'm afraid. Best to just accept it.
You are right Farage is not socially liberal. I despise Farage.
But there is a reason Boris worked with Gove etc in Vote Leave and not Farage etc in Leave.EU - why do you think that is?
Because he is a social liberal fooling his Hard Brexit base. Or possibly devoid of core belief and thus fooling all who support him.
As per my original post. Which is looking impeccable.
Again Hard Brexit is not a social liberal v conservative issue.
Not exclusively. Of course not. Hard Brexiteers are not all Farage types. But lots of them are. And "Boris" managed to appeal to this section of the electorate. Hence Farage killed off and an 80 seat majority. Well done "Boris". To make them think he shares their values and world view when he doesn't took great political skill.
There - if we put it positively like that, so we don't say your hero "fooled" them, we say that it just shows what a "winner" he is, does this make you a teeny bit happier?
Winning depends upon building a big tent yes but he never fooled anyone and never pretended to be (or campaigned with) Farage.
"Boris" Johnson never fooled anyone. Priti Patel is a "social liberal".
These are fabulous. But don't go thinking you can never top them. That way lies decline.
I never said Patel is a social liberal I said she is more liberal than people give her credit for.
I see. She is "more liberal than people give her credit for" albeit not a "social liberal". But is she still a social conservative? Most certainly think so. Both supporters and opponents alike think that. However it sounds like you think she is less conservative socially than people give her credit for. Is she fooling that base again, I wonder.
No its not about fooling, its not all or nothing.
I think Patel is a lot more liberal than David Cameron's Home Secretary was. She has been liberalising non-EU migration in a few areas and I can't see Patel sending "Go Home" vans into minority communities.
On SK I remember linking to their public websites in February showing the journeys and times each infected person had made so that people could heck if they had been exposed or not. Come May we have absolutely nothing like this. If we are going to make trace and isolate work we need it. That means accepting that your smartphone is used to track you and that information is put into the public domain, no doubt anonymised but probably identifiable to those who know you.
Are we ready for that? I am but I am not sure.
What has this government done to make its opponents trust it?
This would be a tough sell anyway and having a government led by figures who revel in playing fast and loose with data is only going to make it harder.
I think that Brits feel that way about every government. We have a healthy distrust of authority. Remember the arguments about ID cards under Blair? The question is whether enough people can be persuaded to take part. It has to be voluntary.
Nicely ducked.
You have a government that has made great play about dividing the country between its support base and its opponents and using the apparatus of the state to drive through its policy objectives. It now wants the cooperation of its opponents in providing it with vast amounts of data.
What has it done to persuade them to trust it?
You'd have to be mental to install the app. They will 100% use it for law enforcement and counter-terrorism and there will 100% be mistakes made with data and identities.
I suspect that it will be an NHS App, rather than a government one, to avoid that tag, and treated as medical records in terms of confidentiality.
In practice I would expect that it will need to be on to access many public buildings, public transport etc.
Older people being denied use of public transport on account of non-possession of a Smartphone would become a very big issue. I wonder who they normally support at election time.
Anyway, if there's any attempt at compulsion in tracking my movements via my mobile phone, I'll simply leave it at home.
In which case it is possible the government could require the police to conduct stop and search with arrest for those not carrying the mobile phone with tracing app
Since when has it been compulsory to own a Smart Phone? I have never owned and have no desire to purchase one. I barely use a basic mobile - most of my monthly bills are Zero. Is the State now going to supply this?
No. HYUFD is bearing no resemblance to reality once more.
It may seem hard to believe but even now some people choose not to own any mobile devices at all.
It would surely be very simple to design a cheap single-function device you could keep in your pocket or wear as a wristband. One app, Bluetooth, only going online occasionally, the Government could buy the data in bulk cheap
To mask or not to mask: Modeling the potential for face mask use by the general public to curtail the COVID-19 pandemic https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468042720300117?via=ihub Face mask use by the general public for limiting the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic is controversial, though increasingly recommended, and the potential of this intervention is not well understood. We develop a compartmental model for assessing the community-wide impact of mask use by the general, asymptomatic public, a portion of which may be asymptomatically infectious. Model simulations, using data relevant to COVID-19 dynamics in the US states of New York and Washington, suggest that broad adoption of even relatively ineffective face masks may meaningfully reduce community transmission of COVID-19 and decrease peak hospitalizations and deaths. Moreover, mask use decreases the effective transmission rate in nearly linear proportion to the product of mask effectiveness (as a fraction of potentially infectious contacts blocked) and coverage rate (as a fraction of the general population), while the impact on epidemiologic outcomes (death, hospitalizations) is highly nonlinear, indicating masks could synergize with other non-pharmaceutical measures. Notably, masks are found to be useful with respect to both preventing illness in healthy persons and preventing asymptomatic transmission. Hypothetical mask adoption scenarios, for Washington and New York state, suggest that immediate near universal (80%) adoption of moderately (50%) effective masks could prevent on the order of 17–45% of projected deaths over two months in New York, while decreasing the peak daily death rate by 34–58%, absent other changes in epidemic dynamics. Even very weak masks (20% effective) can still be useful if the underlying transmission rate is relatively low or decreasing: In Washington, where baseline transmission is much less intense, 80% adoption of such masks could reduce mortality by 24–65% (and peak deaths 15–69%), compared to 2–9% mortality reduction in New York (peak death reduction 9–18%). Our results suggest use of face masks by the general public is potentially of high value in curtailing community transmission and the burden of the pandemic. The community-wide benefits are likely to be greatest when face masks are used in conjunction with other non-pharmaceutical practices (such as social-distancing), and when adoption is nearly universal (nation-wide) and compliance is high....
The last bit is sort of stating the obvious. Staying apart from people is probably the most effective way of stopping transmission. If you are doing that, a mask isn't going to do much more.
It is - but it's also saying that the modelling is valid only if people don't start behaving like idiots because they are wearing masks (false sense of security, etc.).
I am not sure why you wouldn't be able to just download the other apps?
The point of tracing apps is that people need to be on the same system to know whether they have been in close contact with someone who has subsequently been diagnosed.
So you need the same app (or a compatible app) wherever you plan to go.
If international travel is dependent on this, it is important that the other country has a good idea if you've been in contact with someone in the past couple of weeks and the same for the UK when you return. You can't do that with different UK and non-UK apps if they cannot share data.
I am not sure why you wouldn't be able to just download the other apps?
The point of tracing apps is that people need to be on the same system to know whether they have been in close contact with someone who has subsequently been diagnosed.
So you need the same app (or a compatible app) wherever you plan to go.
If international travel is dependent on this, it is important that the other country has a good idea if you've been in contact with someone in the past couple of weeks and the same for the UK when you return. You can't do that with different UK and non-UK apps if they cannot share data.
I think travel to other countries for the foreseeable future is going to include mandatory quarantine, regardless of apps, or require a test to be taken at the airport.
Apparently my area of London is totally unrepresentative, because the proportion of mask wearers has been steadily climbing for weeks round here. I would guess now near enough 50% of those I see while exercising.
Proportion of "people with masks round their chins so they can talk more easily" steady at about 25% of mask wearers.
This is again really irresponsible to be publishing leaks on this stuff. Things are still in motion. This is a crucial moment, lots of false reporting or reporting certain rules (which are still under discussion) as fact, will only likely lead to confusion.
I have no problem with posting leaks when governments have shown to lie or mislead the public, but this isn't the case.
Journalists are doing what journalists do.
I continue to be amazed at the PB-ers who excoriate journalists for doing their job and who seem to be happy with whatever crap the govt is coming out with.
In any case I presume the Government is letting information sneak out to gauge reaction
I wonder how many people have a cold right now in the UK (Not Covid, just any old rinovirus/coronavirus respiratory infection). The numbers must be way down from normal.
Here we go - interesting commentary on internationalisation of tracking apps, and the suggestion that those countries using the Apple/Google solution could relax travel restrictions between themselves - to the exclusion of those countries who have opted out.
On SK I remember linking to their public websites in February showing the journeys and times each infected person had made so that people could heck if they had been exposed or not. Come May we have absolutely nothing like this. If we are going to make trace and isolate work we need it. That means accepting that your smartphone is used to track you and that information is put into the public domain, no doubt anonymised but probably identifiable to those who know you.
Are we ready for that? I am but I am not sure.
What has this government done to make its opponents trust it?
This would be a tough sell anyway and having a government led by figures who revel in playing fast and loose with data is only going to make it harder.
I think that Brits feel that way about every government. We have a healthy distrust of authority. Remember the arguments about ID cards under Blair? The question is whether enough people can be persuaded to take part. It has to be voluntary.
Nicely ducked.
You have a government that has made great play about dividing the country between its support base and its opponents and using the apparatus of the state to drive through its policy objectives. It now wants the cooperation of its opponents in providing it with vast amounts of data.
What has it done to persuade them to trust it?
You'd have to be mental to install the app. They will 100% use it for law enforcement and counter-terrorism and there will 100% be mistakes made with data and identities.
I suspect that it will be an NHS App, rather than a government one, to avoid that tag, and treated as medical records in terms of confidentiality.
In practice I would expect that it will need to be on to access many public buildings, public transport etc.
Older people being denied use of public transport on account of non-possession of a Smartphone would become a very big issue. I wonder who they normally support at election time.
You may be happy to risk spreading Covid by going on public transport while refusing to carry an app or wear a face mask, I suspect most older people will not
How long ago did Germany ease their lockdown? If less than two weeks then this is meaningleas.
There's an easier way to tell it's meaningless which I share with you by way of a "life hack".
If you look in the top left corner of the tweet, you'll observe Twitter have helpfully placed the words "Toby Young" and a picture of Toby Young there. That provides all the information you need.
Here we go - interesting commentary on internationalisation of tracking apps, and the suggestion that those countries using the Apple/Google solution could relax travel restrictions between themselves - to the exclusion of those countries who have opted out.
Another good reason for all moderate, non-headbanging Brexit-delusionaries to lend their support to SKS
Wouldn't it be better if he said it was or wasn't ending though ? I mean for clarity.
Sounds like Starmer is keeping the Single Market option open. His strategy seems to be 'Let's not mention Brexit". Either it will blow over or it will go pear shaped, at which point people will be looking for alternatives.
Yes, the next general election looks like continued hard Brexit and WTO terms with Boris or rejoin the single market with Starmer and the LDs and SNP
Which will be one of the reasons, "Boris" as you so lovingly refer to him as, will lose. The main reason will be that Starmer is not Corbyn or "Boris". And Bozo will be grateful, because he will have got the badge that he so longed to have, but he will no longer have to find ways to dodge the hard work
Meanwhile in the real world Boris has already won. If Labour wins after 14 years of Tory governments then so be it.
Sense "Boris" has become like Liverpool FC for you. In which case, fine, but you're on the hook for life. That's what true fandom is. 20 years from now, Liverpool might be wallowing in mid-table mediocrity and "Boris" might be doing a five stretch for something slippery and beyond the pale, but you - you will still have to keep churning out the love. This is the deal so I hope you are going in with eyes open.
You're right. I'm not a glory hunter, I support what I want to through thick and thin. What's wrong with that?
On sports I supported my clubs through thick and thin. I grew up used to disappointments, despite being born early 80s so can barely remember some Liverpool success my memories are more from the 90s.
I grew up in Australia in the 90s a "Pome Bastard" supporting English cricket during The Ashes. I remained an England fan through thick and thin surrounded by Australians in the 1990s. If that didn't break me what makes you think mid table mediocrity will do?
Same in politics. I am an unabashed liberal Conservative, aka a libertarian. I believe in economically dry, socially liberal Conservatives like Thatcher, Cameron and Johnson. I oppose social conservativism or left wing economics and my views don't change to match what the leadership of any particular party says. When May led the party I was vocal in opposition to "my" party because her vicious "Go Home" politics do not represent me.
Here is what you need to ponder. "Boris" is popular with a great many people who are decidedly not "socially liberal". It leaves 3 possibilities.
(i) He IS a social liberal and is fooling his Get Brexit Done base. (ii) He is NOT a social liberal and is fooling you (and those like you). (iii) He is devoid of core belief and is fooling EVERYONE who supports him.
You will be interested to hear that the most likely answer is a (i) with a generous helping of (iii).
What makes you think "Get Brexit Done" is socially illiberal?
What fills me with confidence is decades of listening to him speak. He has consistently been liberal - including during the referendum campaign. He isn't some Farage/IDS/HYUFD social conservative headbanger.
Some Brexit supporters are socially liberal but a large number are not. Those for whom Farage had great appeal, for example. Few social liberals there.
It's a 2+2 = 4 point again, Philip, I'm afraid. Best to just accept it.
You are right Farage is not socially liberal. I despise Farage.
But there is a reason Boris worked with Gove etc in Vote Leave and not Farage etc in Leave.EU - why do you think that is?
Because he is a social liberal fooling his Hard Brexit base. Or possibly devoid of core belief and thus fooling all who support him.
As per my original post. Which is looking impeccable.
Again Hard Brexit is not a social liberal v conservative issue.
Not exclusively. Of course not. Hard Brexiteers are not all Farage types. But lots of them are. And "Boris" managed to appeal to this section of the electorate. Hence Farage killed off and an 80 seat majority. Well done "Boris". To make them think he shares their values and world view when he doesn't took great political skill.
There - if we put it positively like that, so we don't say your hero "fooled" them, we say that it just shows what a "winner" he is, does this make you a teeny bit happier?
Winning depends upon building a big tent yes but he never fooled anyone and never pretended to be (or campaigned with) Farage.
"Boris" Johnson never fooled anyone. Priti Patel is a "social liberal".
These are fabulous. But don't go thinking you can never top them. That way lies decline.
I never said Patel is a social liberal I said she is more liberal than people give her credit for.
I see. She is "more liberal than people give her credit for" albeit not a "social liberal". But is she still a social conservative? Most certainly think so. Both supporters and opponents alike think that. However it sounds like you think she is less conservative socially than people give her credit for. Is she fooling that base again, I wonder.
No its not about fooling, its not all or nothing.
I think Patel is a lot more liberal than David Cameron's Home Secretary was. She has been liberalising non-EU migration in a few areas and I can't see Patel sending "Go Home" vans into minority communities.
Do you disagree with that?
I think both Priti Patel and Theresa May are socially conservative. Boris Johnson, to the extent he has political convictions, is socially liberal. Thus in this regard Patel and May are more in touch with the Tory base and the Hard Brexit base than Johnson is. Patel is therefore fooling you but not the base. Johnson is fooling the base but not you. And neither of them, nor you, are fooling me.
On Brexit, I see Govey saying "I'll recruit pen pushers to tie business up in knots of red tape" and see self-styled true conservatives like HYUFD insisting thats a Good Thing. Business is not going to allow any such thing to happen, even the Tories won't be able to withstand Tesco and Jaguar saying "thats us fucked then" as the economy judders along in the midst of the worst recession we have seen in decades.
People voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for the consequences of Brexit. They haven't a clue how the economy works, how trade works, how manufacturing works, how the supply chain works. They are clueless - they just think that The Man has screwed them too many times and they want to Take Back Control for a change.
Local Brexiteers up here want an end to being told what to do by the EU. They don't want to see an end to local shops and for Tesco shelves to be half empty which is exactly what will happen if we leave with No Deal as anyone who knows anything about how it works (not HYUFD then) will tell you with precise detail. So its an empty threat. "But you voted for this" is what Goebbels said in the penultimate scene in Downfall before he shot himself...
Its a fudge. The "surrender" referred to earlier was that the UK surrendered its sovereignty over NI and agreed to place an intra-British border down the Irish Sea. Thats not a win for anyone including the EU so of course noone is celebrating it. That the government say "oh no we haven't" when presented with the treaty which says "oh yes you have" next to Shagger's signature tells you all you need to know.
They know the voters haven't a clue. They know the voters don't care about the details of what Brexit is. So exactly as they did having thrown NI under the buss they will simply declare victory and everyone will Move On. We won't have Free Movement as neither will a post-viral EU. We will have additional checks as they will also have between France and Germany and that sour-faced Patel troll will say its a triumph of Her Policy.
Your post fails in its first paragraph. Tesco and Jaguar won't say "thats us fucked then" as they won't be fucked. In fact Tesco and Jaguar are more than capable of dealing with paperwork which they already deal with for non-EU trade. Its no big deal for them.
The third paragraph is equally absurd. The shelves won't be empty.
The fourth paragraph is nonsense too. NI wasn't surrendered, the protocol requires ongoing Stormont consent to stay in place. Devolution is well established in this nation now.
The second and fifth paragraphs are just ranting and insulting the intelligence of people, it has no actual point.
But apart from that . . .
As I said, you evidently know more about supply chain logistics than supply chains and logistics do. Go ask the Port of Dover what impact all of these checks will have. Don't say "use another port" as it'll be the same there as well" The queues will back up forever, trucks won't get through and that means stuff won't get through. Which means food and car parts.
So yes, they will be fucked. As their industries have detailed.
The Port of Dover have said they can cope. That Port of Dover?
If queues are what you are worried about then coronavirus minimises that risk does it not?
"Doug Bannister, the chief executive at the port of Dover, told a fringe event at the Conservative conference that the government’s assumed drop in traffic under a no-deal scenario would cut £1bn a week from the flow of goods.
He said the port had made extensive preparations for 31 October to function as usual but added: “That’s how critical it is. If there’s a no-deal Brexit, it’s not going to be OK. But people are doing all they can to ensure Britain keeps trading.”
Like masks, all these references to requiring hand sanitisers everywhere. Can you get hand sanitiser anywhere at the moment?
Shopping news. I've just bought my first ever hand sanitiser from Sainsbury's. The last on the shelf. 50ml of Bulgarian germ-zapping goodness. No mention of viruses but there is alcohol in there. There is a space for the "best before" date but nothing has been stamped there.
A very short queue to get in but the shelves seemed emptier than last week.
I am not sure why you wouldn't be able to just download the other apps?
The point of tracing apps is that people need to be on the same system to know whether they have been in close contact with someone who has subsequently been diagnosed.
So you need the same app (or a compatible app) wherever you plan to go.
If international travel is dependent on this, it is important that the other country has a good idea if you've been in contact with someone in the past couple of weeks and the same for the UK when you return. You can't do that with different UK and non-UK apps if they cannot share data.
I think travel to other countries for the foreseeable future is going to include mandatory quarantine, regardless of apps, or require a test to be taken at the airport.
Well, that's going to be a pain for people living in Konstanz or Derry, let alone for long distance lorry drivers.
Look, I'm aware there are going to be restrictions, and don't myself plan on travelling. But I think you're wrong if you believe cross-border movement is likely to be restricted to that degree for a year or so, and I'd rather the UK was part of that (albeit more limited) movement for economic reasons.
Anyway, if there's any attempt at compulsion in tracking my movements via my mobile phone, I'll simply leave it at home.
In which case it is possible the government could require the police to conduct stop and search with arrest for those not carrying the mobile phone with tracing app
Since when has it been compulsory to own a Smart Phone? I have never owned and have no desire to purchase one. I barely use a basic mobile - most of my monthly bills are Zero. Is the State now going to supply this?
Fine, provided you are willing to stay in the house until we get a vaccination.
If however lockdown and quarantine is to be eased then as in South Korea smartphone apps will be needed to track and trace and isolate those with symptoms and those they have been in contact with.
The state could supply phones and apps for those on low incomes if needed
The state could indeed supply smartphones but let's wait for the announcement.
I wonder how many people have a cold right now in the UK (Not Covid, just any old rinovirus/coronavirus respiratory infection). The numbers must be way down from normal.
Yeah, once we all go out again there will be an explosion of regular colds.
Like masks, all these references to requiring hand sanitisers everywhere. Can you get hand sanitiser anywhere at the moment?
Shopping news. I've just bought my first ever hand sanitiser from Sainsbury's. The last on the shelf. 50ml of Bulgarian germ-zapping goodness. No mention of viruses but there is alcohol in there. There is a space for the "best before" date but nothing has been stamped there.
A very short queue to get in but the shelves seemed emptier than last week.
My village deli has been (just) in stock of hand sanitiser for the past four weeks
If other shops seem emptier than a week ago, it's simply random. Almost all shortages have now more or less disappeared. A problem in some stores, though, is that customers' shopping times are changing unpredictably, and stocks can't easily be tweaked
Anyway, if there's any attempt at compulsion in tracking my movements via my mobile phone, I'll simply leave it at home.
In which case it is possible the government could require the police to conduct stop and search with arrest for those not carrying the mobile phone with tracing app
Having wet dreams again? If they put in such a law it would be be subject to mass disobedience. You cannot lock people up for not possessing a piece of consumer electronics. Only 55% of over 55's have a smart phone only 18% of over 65's
If it is the best way to reduce the spread of Covid you can, enforced by the police.
Over 65s can stay in if they refuse to have one or only go out with permits
Yeah like you will lock up 45% of over 55's who will be off out as soon as lockdown lifts. You want to ensure there is never another tory government and foster a complete disrespect of the police then by all means try it
As the polling shows more people are concerned about the death rate rising again post lockdown than pursuing extreme libertarianism
It is not extreme libertarianism not to have total government surviellance apparatus put in place it is sensible. Or maybe you think mr Meeks and Cyclefree are both libertarians too
They are both social democrat liberals not conservatives.
At the end of the day for a tracing app to be effective most people have to wear it, if they do not we cannot end enforced quarantine with all the economic damage resulting.
If too few people wear the app some element of enforcement is therefore inevitable if the lockdown is to be lifted
I really don't care what the logic is. It is not enforceable as a law
Anything is enforceable as the law if the police enforce it and a majority support it.
The majority would accept the use of apps to end lockdown and ensure those with symptoms and who they have been in contact with can be traced and forced to isolate whatever a libertarian minority might think
Doesnt matter if the majority support it, merely takes enough to ignore it and plenty will. Never pass a law you can't enforce.
If the majority support it the minority who refuse to comply can be arrested by the police and fined or jailed without difficulty
Like masks, all these references to requiring hand sanitisers everywhere. Can you get hand sanitiser anywhere at the moment?
Shopping news. I've just bought my first ever hand sanitiser from Sainsbury's. The last on the shelf. 50ml of Bulgarian germ-zapping goodness. No mention of viruses but there is alcohol in there. There is a space for the "best before" date but nothing has been stamped there.
A very short queue to get in but the shelves seemed emptier than last week.
You know soap and water can do the trick just as well?
These are the types of people that sadly now hold positions of influence in the modern Conservative Party thanks to Bozo and his cabal. If this is true it is an absolute disgrace.
He’s behaved very poorly and that reflects on those that appointed him but you seem to be suggesting no mp in a position of influence had ever behaved so prior to Boris. That’s insane.
He has surrounded himself with a right bunch of shysters though, no bad egg here, they are all rotten to the core to mix my metaphors.
Considering Burns has been made to resign immediately and was already in the party and had been a PPS under both Cameron and May it seems odd to blame Johnson for his impropriety.
He made him a minister, what more can I say , he scoured the MPs for the biggest rogues he could find.
These are the types of people that sadly now hold positions of influence in the modern Conservative Party thanks to Bozo and his cabal. If this is true it is an absolute disgrace.
He’s behaved very poorly and that reflects on those that appointed him but you seem to be suggesting no mp in a position of influence had ever behaved so prior to Boris. That’s insane.
So why isn't Johnson throwing this piece of shit out of the party? He had no problem withdrawing the whip from MPs who committed the terrible offence of voting against his government.
An idiotic question. My point was shitty MPs existed before Boris and will exist after Boris. If there is an argument there are more under Boris or that they are rising higher under Boris that is one thing, but the comment I responded to lamented that it was thanks to Boris that such people hold positions of influence, as though no MP had behaved poorly before. As to whether his offence was worthy of being kicked out of the party, people don’t get kicked out of parties for what they deserve or do not deserve. Many who should be kicked out are not, and some that should not are.
Here we go - interesting commentary on internationalisation of tracking apps, and the suggestion that those countries using the Apple/Google solution could relax travel restrictions between themselves - to the exclusion of those countries who have opted out.
Regarding treatment protocol for Coronavirus, I am pretty sure that variations on a theme of chloroquin and zinc are the gold standard, despite widespread media hype in the other direction. I follow Dr Berg (keto diet and intermittent fasting) and he has a very methodical way of explaining the science - very much pitched at the layman. This is well worth a watch.
I can only think widespread attempts to discredit this treatment are a result of the early Trump endorsement.
Absent some very surprising randomised clinical trial results, I don't think there's any need to discredit it; there is simply no evidence that it works, and significant evidence of potentially severe side effects.
I've been drinking plenty of G&T just in case quinine helps. But doctors aren't stupid. If there was any evidence this worked, they'd all be using it.
Be keeping it quiet for themselves.
I don't think they're stupid, but I don't think they're always the most critical thinkers, especially not in the midst of a global pandemic, when things just become a matter of grim routine.
I am not sure why @Nigelb feels the evidence of negative results for this drug is of a higher order than the evidence of positive results.
I wonder how many people have a cold right now in the UK (Not Covid, just any old rinovirus/coronavirus respiratory infection). The numbers must be way down from normal.
On a related topic, the cherry blossom hay fever period passed with far less discomfort than usual - maybe it’s much more air quality dependent than I thought.
Comments
I continue to be amazed at the PB-ers who excoriate journalists for doing their job and who seem to be happy with whatever crap the govt is coming out with.
It may seem hard to believe but even now some people choose not to own any mobile devices at all.
BY TIM MARSHALL
https://unherd.com/2020/05/how-covid-19-is-hardening-our-borders/
Miss Tim Marshall on Sky news. He was very good at his job.
An issue or scare mongering?
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/05/COVID-19-daily-announced-deaths-4-May-2020.xlsx
https://twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1257274836377878534?s=20
https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1257290077136457735?s=20
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1257245832522407936?s=20
If however lockdown and quarantine is to be eased then as in South Korea smartphone apps will be needed to track and trace and isolate those with symptoms and those they have been in contact with.
The state could supply phones and apps for those on low incomes if needed
I think Patel is a lot more liberal than David Cameron's Home Secretary was. She has been liberalising non-EU migration in a few areas and I can't see Patel sending "Go Home" vans into minority communities.
Do you disagree with that?
https://twitter.com/Starcourse/status/1257277717944426497?s=20
https://twitter.com/Starcourse/status/1257278835873251331?s=20
https://twitter.com/Starcourse/status/1257278392354975746?s=20
So you need the same app (or a compatible app) wherever you plan to go.
If international travel is dependent on this, it is important that the other country has a good idea if you've been in contact with someone in the past couple of weeks and the same for the UK when you return. You can't do that with different UK and non-UK apps if they cannot share data.
Proportion of "people with masks round their chins so they can talk more easily" steady at about 25% of mask wearers.
The numbers must be way down from normal.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/04/failure-join-google-apple-tracing-app-could-mean-britons-unable/
"Britons may be unable to travel abroad because of UK's failure to join Google and Apple tracing app"
If you look in the top left corner of the tweet, you'll observe Twitter have helpfully placed the words "Toby Young" and a picture of Toby Young there. That provides all the information you need.
JEW THREAD
So if what you are saying is correct, how come we didn't have any food or supply shortages prior to the advent of the single market in 1993?
A very short queue to get in but the shelves seemed emptier than last week.
Look, I'm aware there are going to be restrictions, and don't myself plan on travelling. But I think you're wrong if you believe cross-border movement is likely to be restricted to that degree for a year or so, and I'd rather the UK was part of that (albeit more limited) movement for economic reasons.
If other shops seem emptier than a week ago, it's simply random. Almost all shortages have now more or less disappeared. A problem in some stores, though, is that customers' shopping times are changing unpredictably, and stocks can't easily be tweaked
I am not sure why @Nigelb feels the evidence of negative results for this drug is of a higher order than the evidence of positive results.