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  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    This may be a silly question, but if you have only developed one antibody test, how can you tell so precisely how accurate it is?

    False negatives I guess you can work out from people who previously tested positive when they had the infection (although of course that test also has false results).

    But how can you know how many false positives you have?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    I believe it is fairly easy to define wealth - anyone with income more than twice one's own.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Jonathan said:
    You don't.

    Coronavirus isn't polonium resulting in guaranteed death and nor is it 100% instantly contagious.
    Hell no, we won't queue in the rain just to save the lives of some old people who are going to die soon anyway ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    I doubt it'll happen, but a voluntary tax might be a good start.

    This happened a few times in the 17th century and actually raised substantial sums of money.

    There are seats in the Lords on offer, then?
    £10m to become a life peer - the people who pay won't be any worse than the political appointees.
    20m to become a hereditary peer. If someone wants to be called a lord they can and they dont even get to hold legislative power. For most.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    It's the beauty treatments I'll miss.

    I've just bought some hair-clippers because I couldn't stand any longer going without a haircut
    Where is Jack W when you need him?
    There have been many speculations as to his identity; that he is Mr Teasy Weasy is novel.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    I think Captain Tom's promotion is a disservice. Captain Tom is how he is known and loved by millions. Naming a new hospital after him would be real recognition.

    It reminds of a penguin at Edinburgh Zoo that got adopted by the Norwegian army. It kept being promoted. It ended up as a field marshal or something
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    The way to make those things safe again is to extinguish the virus from the community. That means sticking with restrictions that keep R below 1 for a short while longer, so that the virus fires out.

    Then putting effort into testing and contact tracing so that we can stop isolated residual infections from spreadingand introducing quarantine for travellers from infected countries to reduce the risk of reintroducing the virus.

    Doing a half-arsed job of suppressing the virus, and accepting the risk is what will keep people hiding away out of fear.

    If you confined everyone in *the whole world* into compulsory isolation for eight weeks then the virus would die out, absolutely. Those who already had it would either die or recover*, and then it would have no-one else to go. It simply wouldn't exist anymore.

    That isn't practical of course for a whole host of reasons.

    (*disclaimer: I don't know whether for a small minority it might linger where they neither fully recover nor die and the virus remains quasi-active or in hibernation in their system)
    Probably not.

    Tests in recovered patients found false positives, not reinfections, experts say
    http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200429000724
    South Korea’s infectious disease experts said Thursday that dead virus fragments were the likely cause of over 260 people here testing positive again for the novel coronavirus days and even weeks after marking full recoveries.

    Oh Myoung-don, who leads the central clinical committee for emerging disease control, said the committee members found little reason to believe that those cases could be COVID-19 reinfections or reactivations, which would have made global efforts to contain the virus much more daunting.

    “The tests detected the ribonucleic acid of the dead virus,” said Oh, a Seoul National University hospital doctor, at a press conference Thursday held at the National Medical Center.

    He went on to explain that in PCR tests, or polymerase chain reaction tests, used for COVID-19 diagnosis, genetic materials of the virus amplify during testing, whether it is from a live virus or just from fragments of dead virus cells that can take months to clear from recovered patients.

    The PCR tests cannot distinguish whether the virus is alive or dead, he added, and this can lead to false positives.

    “PCR testing that amplifies genetics of the virus is used in Korea to test COVID-19, and relapse cases are due to technical limits of the PCR testing.”...

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.


    I believe it is fairly easy to define wealth - anyone with income more than twice one's own.
    Income is only part of the story. A bigger determinant of wealth can be when you bought your house and therefore what mortgage you have. You can have the same income and radically different lifestyles.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    IanB2 said:

    This may be a silly question, but if you have only developed one antibody test, how can you tell so precisely how accurate it is?

    False negatives I guess you can work out from people who previously tested positive when they had the infection (although of course that test also has false results).

    But how can you know how many false positives you have?

    Yes. I've been wondering this as well.

    My guess (based on almost zero knowledge) is that there's always a much more complicated/time-consuming/expensive test that is 99.9% accurate. This can be used to assess the accuracy of the test that's going to be used commercially.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    TGOHF666 said:

    The RCS says no blacks, no going outish ...

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/1255744205844029440?s=21

    These snowflakes who don't want to do the jobs they are paid for should think about the sacrifices everyone else is making.

    My mind is still reeling from that horrific story about people having to queue in the rain outside a supermarket.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    No doubt they will have to, but much doubt they will be made to or will.
    JRM and his like will vote against doing so. And move more of their investments out of UK.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    It's an interesting discussion showing some basic differences in human reactions. One that gets less attention than most is the extent to which we consciously live in the physical world around us. For some of Cyclefree's points (lectures, talks, debates. classes), my instinctive reaction was "But we can do those more easily online". But I think she'd feel that it's a fundamentally less satisfying experience. Similarly, I see colleagues at work all day long in one Teams call after another, and to my mind it's pretty much as good (or not) as if we were sitting round a table. Local Labour Party meetings get far better turnout online than we ever do when we have to trek out to meet in a drafty hall.

    I recognise that this is just one kind of attitude, Cyclefree's is another, and we need to avoid arguing that one attitude show that we are superior in some way - it's just a thing. But it's perhaps a consolation that young people in particular are more open to the idea that a life online can be a life fulfilled for a while.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    FF43 said:

    I think Captain Tom's promotion is a disservice. Captain Tom is how he is known and loved by millions. Naming a new hospital after him would be real recognition.

    It reminds of a penguin at Edinburgh Zoo that got adopted by the Norwegian army. It kept being promoted. It ended up as a field marshal or something

    The (then) Crown Prince of Thailand promoted his dog to Air Vice Marshall. Or something like that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Morning all !
    On this morning's went past someone waiting for a bus, first time that's happened. A couple of other runners but interestingly only one cyclist and about 3 dog walkers. Some men driving about with a high vis on - construction I presume ?
    Also saw 5 people who were clearly neighbours having a chat in a big ring on the pavement. I wasn't going to interrupt and check their distance but they looked around 2 metres apart each, and being outdoors was probably low enough risk.
    Social distancing seems to be being respected round here ( North Notts villages) anyway.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    I doubt it'll happen, but a voluntary tax might be a good start.

    This happened a few times in the 17th century and actually raised substantial sums of money.

    it exists now and raises next to nothing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/01/you-can-pay-more-tax-if-you-want-to
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    Pulpstar said:

    Morning all !
    On this morning's went past someone waiting for a bus, first time that's happened. A couple of other runners but interestingly only one cyclist and about 3 dog walkers. Some men driving about with a high vis on - construction I presume ?
    Also saw 5 people who were clearly neighbours having a chat in a big ring on the pavement. I wasn't going to interrupt and check their distance but they looked around 2 metres apart each, and being outdoors was probably low enough risk.
    Social distancing seems to be being respected round here ( North Notts villages) anyway.

    The big ring chat: suppose it turns out that people 2m apart have to speak louder, which drives saliva droplets further, so people need to stand further apart, which means they must speak even louder to be heard, and so on in a vicious circle. We need more research. And more masks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited April 2020
    On the Theatre point, it is hard to know when that can safely resume, but I have renewed my membership with a voluntary contribution. I plan to go to some of the shows when rescheduled later this year.

    Sports and the Arts are important aspects of why we live, and need our support through this. Intrinsically they need a crowd to work.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Really 'like' Mr P's phrase about 'living in a bubble'!

    One of my walks takes me past the pub I used to use. I joke that it's so I don't forget the way!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    On the drama & films thing, there seems to be a fair stockpile of stuff still to work with with new series of Borgen and The Last Kingdom turning up. I guess the 2020 autumn and winter seasons may be a bit repeaty tho'.

    If you enjoy historical drama, South Korea again provides considerable distraction. They have a tendency to make only single season series - but these can stretch to fifty episodes or more.
    In the latter category, Six Flying Dragons is absolutely epic (and mildly absurd at the same time).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited April 2020
    £29.994m........

    EDIT: And £30m.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    tlg86 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The RCS says no blacks, no going outish ...

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/1255744205844029440?s=21

    Imagine if it was the other way around...

    That said, if it's the right thing to do then it should be done.
    Years and years of bleating that we should all be treated as equals, now they start bleating we are not equals........WTF
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Not sure whether this has been posted before but it's 75 years today since Adolf Hitler died. By his own hand, IIRC.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    I doubt it'll happen, but a voluntary tax might be a good start.

    This happened a few times in the 17th century and actually raised substantial sums of money.

    There are seats in the Lords on offer, then?
    £10m to become a life peer - the people who pay won't be any worse than the political appointees.
    Are there any who don't already pay
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    IanB2 said:

    This may be a silly question, but if you have only developed one antibody test, how can you tell so precisely how accurate it is?

    False negatives I guess you can work out from people who previously tested positive when they had the infection (although of course that test also has false results).

    But how can you know how many false positives you have?

    I think when there is low prevalence - the false positives will dominate and the 'true positives you didn't know about' will be small compared to other sources of error such as sampling error etc.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's interesting.

    But it's not quite the same thing. A perpetually open door offer and a time-limited, specific fund-raising drive are fundamentally different beasts, particularly if the latter comes shortly after a crisis.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Anyone not me is how most will see it.
    Yes and the lazy, feckless and greedy will just want to stiff someone who has had to graft for their cash. They can solve easily by fixing tax evasion , tax havens etc but as that would mean their chums and palm greasers being unhappy that will never do.
  • Sorry everyone, my last post reads like a petulant whine. Whilst this is my day 44 in the cage I have space, health, cash, a job and there are so many people out there who don't have that. I'm lucky. Luck lucky lucky...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    FF43 said:

    I think Captain Tom's promotion is a disservice. Captain Tom is how he is known and loved by millions. Naming a new hospital after him would be real recognition.

    It reminds of a penguin at Edinburgh Zoo that got adopted by the Norwegian army. It kept being promoted. It ended up as a field marshal or something

    The (then) Crown Prince of Thailand promoted his dog to Air Vice Marshall. Or something like that.
    892NAS used to have a lioness as a mascot (acquired from fuck knows where and smuggled back to the UK fuck knows how). She was given a field promotion to Sub Lt so all the rates had to salute her.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    I'm honestly done with this lockdown. I miss my family, I miss my friends. Social distancing can fuck right off. I hate this lifestyle and the sooner we get a vaccine the better.

    I'm just glad to be sharing the misery with someone, I can't imagine how awful it must be for single people.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Pulpstar said:

    Morning all !
    On this morning's went past someone waiting for a bus, first time that's happened. A couple of other runners but interestingly only one cyclist and about 3 dog walkers. Some men driving about with a high vis on - construction I presume ?
    Also saw 5 people who were clearly neighbours having a chat in a big ring on the pavement. I wasn't going to interrupt and check their distance but they looked around 2 metres apart each, and being outdoors was probably low enough risk.
    Social distancing seems to be being respected round here ( North Notts villages) anyway.

    The big ring chat: suppose it turns out that people 2m apart have to speak louder, which drives saliva droplets further, so people need to stand further apart, which means they must speak even louder to be heard, and so on in a vicious circle. We need more research. And more masks.
    Sure, but outdoor transmission is far harder than indoors according to all the research.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The RCS says no blacks, no going outish ...

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/1255744205844029440?s=21

    Imagine if it was the other way around...

    That said, if it's the right thing to do then it should be done.
    Years and years of bleating that we should all be treated as equals, now they start bleating we are not equals........WTF
    Do we have any actual real analysis of the issue - not just the raw information?

    i.e. numbers balanced agains the population makeup of the affected groups?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Pioneers, not to worry, I think everyone's finding this wearing.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    I believe it is fairly easy to define wealth - anyone with income more than twice one's own.
    What if you are on jobseekers allowance
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Sorry everyone, my last post reads like a petulant whine. Whilst this is my day 44 in the cage I have space, health, cash, a job and there are so many people out there who don't have that. I'm lucky. Luck lucky lucky...

    No it didn't Mr P. I'm sure a lot feel like that. You're missing other humans.
    Younger son has similar views. As well as having more phone calls, emails etc he's having to help educate
    his youngest child. His time is FULL.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    MaxPB said:


    I'm just glad to be sharing the misery with someone, I can't imagine how awful it must be for single people.

    Not long before male outfitters sell t-shirts with one arm bigger than the other.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
    Boris probably won't. FTFY. Boris is not a wealthy man, at least not by the standards of half his Cabinet. Remember Boris previously floated a mansion tax, which hits wealth, and raising the higher rate income tax threshold which would have benefited high earners like himself, for instance.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    FPT - this site is pretty unrepresentative though.

    It's stuffed with regular posters (many a bit aspergey) whose idea of fun is to log-on to an online blog day after day posting detailed analytical comments from behind a screen.

    Given that many like that in 'real life' it's not surprising so many don't really mind the lockdown (disclaimer: I do).

    PB's audience is 85%+ male. Cyclefree is one of the 15%
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
    The Conservatives are happily to jettison a great many principles for power - but the hill they'll die on is making rich people pay a bit more tax. But with Boris... who knows I guess.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    Exactly but Tories will never do that as they and their chums are the users of the loopholes and tax havens. Just amazes me the amount of non wealthy people simple enough to be conned into voting for these rapacious arseholes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    The squealing from a certain brand of lawyer when you suggest a tax system like that is interesting.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    Exactly but Tories will never do that as they and their chums are the users of the loopholes and tax havens. Just amazes me the amount of non wealthy people simple enough to be conned into voting for these rapacious arseholes.
    its disgraceful malc - they then try and curry favour with those in power to escape

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-donors-in-tax-avoidance-ruses-2jw8g3g9w

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The RCS says no blacks, no going outish ...

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/1255744205844029440?s=21

    Imagine if it was the other way around...

    That said, if it's the right thing to do then it should be done.
    Years and years of bleating that we should all be treated as equals, now they start bleating we are not equals........WTF
    Do we have any actual real analysis of the issue - not just the raw information?

    i.e. numbers balanced agains the population makeup of the affected groups?
    Not, unfortunately, a direct an answer to your question, but there is now this:
    https://www.linkedin.com/posts/covid-19-actuaries-response-group_we-are-busy-finalising-our-next-bulletin-activity-6661271951484432385-Vi9f

    Not sure where the paper it's referencing is.

    As well-established, age is the big one, followed by various co-morbidities (led by obesity.

    Very tentatively, suggest that the low-ish impact on hazard driven by sex at birth might indicate that race is also less of a factor than it first appears, once other factors are properly controlled for?

    As one of the commenters notes, "it is challenging when you don't have a knowledge of the entire infected population with the same data on age, gender and co-morbidities".
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    I believe it is fairly easy to define wealth - anyone with income more than twice one's own.
    Wealth and income are often not related at all.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly done with this lockdown. I miss my family, I miss my friends. Social distancing can fuck right off. I hate this lifestyle and the sooner we get a vaccine the better.

    I'm just glad to be sharing the misery with someone, I can't imagine how awful it must be for single people.

    I live on my own by choice, and I am extremely pleased not to have to share my living space with anyone. Why people apparently choose to do that, is beyond me. I do miss female company, but I am absolutely crap at relationships and have spent most of my life single, so not much has changed, other than at the moment it is notionally mandatory
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
  • MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly done with this lockdown. I miss my family, I miss my friends. Social distancing can fuck right off. I hate this lifestyle and the sooner we get a vaccine the better.

    I'm just glad to be sharing the misery with someone, I can't imagine how awful it must be for single people.

    At the same time I expect party time for divorce lawyers once people are freed to make choices in their lives again.
  • Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    To answer your question

    Many mortgage free pensioners are living on their pension and not wealthy

    Any family with £100,000 plus are doing very well but may not be wealthy

    Anyone owning two homes may well be wealty

    But my target are celebrities, footballers and highly paid CEO and others
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    TGOHF666 said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    Exactly but Tories will never do that as they and their chums are the users of the loopholes and tax havens. Just amazes me the amount of non wealthy people simple enough to be conned into voting for these rapacious arseholes.
    its disgraceful malc - they then try and curry favour with those in power to escape

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-donors-in-tax-avoidance-ruses-2jw8g3g9w

    It's another irregular verb -

    - I prudently plan my finances
    - You avoid taxes
    - He is a filthy tax evader
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly done with this lockdown. I miss my family, I miss my friends. Social distancing can fuck right off. I hate this lifestyle and the sooner we get a vaccine the better.

    I'm just glad to be sharing the misery with someone, I can't imagine how awful it must be for single people.

    I have a friend who has never married. He is perfectly happy with his own company, and I think overall he prefers it. Not everybody is miserable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Endillion said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The RCS says no blacks, no going outish ...

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/1255744205844029440?s=21

    Imagine if it was the other way around...

    That said, if it's the right thing to do then it should be done.
    Years and years of bleating that we should all be treated as equals, now they start bleating we are not equals........WTF
    Do we have any actual real analysis of the issue - not just the raw information?

    i.e. numbers balanced agains the population makeup of the affected groups?
    Not, unfortunately, a direct an answer to your question, but there is now this:
    https://www.linkedin.com/posts/covid-19-actuaries-response-group_we-are-busy-finalising-our-next-bulletin-activity-6661271951484432385-Vi9f

    Not sure where the paper it's referencing is.

    As well-established, age is the big one, followed by various co-morbidities (led by obesity.

    Very tentatively, suggest that the low-ish impact on hazard driven by sex at birth might indicate that race is also less of a factor than it first appears, once other factors are properly controlled for?

    As one of the commenters notes, "it is challenging when you don't have a knowledge of the entire infected population with the same data on age, gender and co-morbidities".
    Thanks - I didn't think I'd seen anything published. What I have heard is statements that race is less of a real factor once the makeup of the at risk groups is taken into account. No actual numbers though
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    To answer your question

    Many mortgage free pensioners are living on their pension and not wealthy

    Any family with £100,000 plus are doing very well but may not be wealthy

    Anyone owning two homes may well be wealty

    But my target are celebrities, footballers and highly paid CEO and others
    Trouble is there aren't quite enough celebs, CEOs and footballers to dent the national finances.

    If you are serious about this black hole, you will probably need to tax both the comfortable income and the mortgage free pensioner.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    To answer your question

    Many mortgage free pensioners are living on their pension and not wealthy

    Any family with £100,000 plus are doing very well but may not be wealthy

    Anyone owning two homes may well be wealty

    But my target are celebrities, footballers and highly paid CEO and others
    Those are the ones our income tax system already targets.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    You simply allow people to roll the liability up until the property is sold.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2020

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    The reason is because dividends come from corporate post-tax income while wages come from corporate pre-tax income. So they're already taxed and then getting taxed again. So for those with minimal dividends earnings its not worth chasing but for those with major earnings it is.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    Paperwork - there are probably a lot of small shareholders that would be uneconomic to collect via a tax return from.

    Hence the allowance - don't waste our time for £12.32 from your BT shares divi.
  • HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
    Your Trump like tendencies are not those of many conservatives who accept that after this Boris and Rishi will raise taxes. Rishi saying 'we are all in this together' is the new compassion long since needed in the party and I will fight against your nosense as a member of the party and to be honest you are infor a big surprise
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    MaxPB said:

    I'm honestly done with this lockdown. I miss my family, I miss my friends. Social distancing can fuck right off. I hate this lifestyle and the sooner we get a vaccine the better.

    I'm just glad to be sharing the misery with someone, I can't imagine how awful it must be for single people.

    I have a friend who has never married. He is perfectly happy with his own company, and I think overall he prefers it. Not everybody is miserable.
    Who was that chap who sat on the top of a pillar for 20 years?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    You simply allow people to roll the liability up until the property is sold.
    People are already paying Council Tax on their home, why roll up another liability on top on people's homes? Or would you abolish Council Tax?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    It's also more of an admin thing. The 'Annual Exemption' for Capital Gains is there to cover little old granny not having to do a tax return on selling a bunch of shares she got 30 years you and can't remember what they're for.

    Or you sell a painting, or your old stamp collection, or whatever.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    Wealth taxes based on property values also fall down because they assume that property prices would stay constant if a value tax were introduced when in fact it would be hugely destructive on values. Taxes should be on income/spending and we should be getting wealthy people to invest their money in the wider economy. There's walls of cash sitting on bank accounts at the moment, we need to get the conditions right so people invest it.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    malcolmg said:

    bleating that we should all be treated as equals,

    Wow

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    Everybody could be made to formally declare their assets (like benefit claimants have to). Sure some will try to cheat and hide assets but that would be tax evasion - an imprisonable offence.

    Some will bleat about the issues of liquidising assets to pay a 1% pa tax, to which I say, tough - find a way.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
    The Conservatives are happily to jettison a great many principles for power - but the hill they'll die on is making rich people pay a bit more tax. But with Boris... who knows I guess.
    Boris does not want to lose marginal seats like Kensington, Esher and Walton or Cheltenham as wealthy Tory voters stay home on election day so he won't
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    There's walls of cash sitting on bank accounts at the moment, we need to get the conditions right so people invest it.
    They effectively do already, by providing banks with liquidity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    This may be a silly question, but if you have only developed one antibody test, how can you tell so precisely how accurate it is?

    False negatives I guess you can work out from people who previously tested positive when they had the infection (although of course that test also has false results).

    But how can you know how many false positives you have?

    Yes. I've been wondering this as well.

    My guess (based on almost zero knowledge) is that there's always a much more complicated/time-consuming/expensive test that is 99.9% accurate. This can be used to assess the accuracy of the test that's going to be used commercially.
    That is pretty well the case (though there are several more complicated time consuming/expensive assays which are used to benchmark, as none are perfect, so you cross check against a range of standards).

    The tests that are being developed target only one or two antibodies produced in response to the virus, while in reality there are several (and the more complicated assays may also be set up to identify/detect other antibodies present, too).

    Also, if you're testing samples from those who you know have had the infection, a failure to detect antibodies gives you another means of checking for false negatives.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
    Your Trump like tendencies are not those of many conservatives who accept that after this Boris and Rishi will raise taxes. Rishi saying 'we are all in this together' is the new compassion long since needed in the party and I will fight against your nosense as a member of the party and to be honest you are infor a big surprise
    I don't think taxes will need to be raised, quite the opposite. I think the government will need to get the economy moving again and tax increases slow the economy down not get it moving again.

    The reality is that this needs to be viewed like World War II debt. WWII debt was never repaid, nor will this debt be. We will need to get the deficit back down but the debt issued this year will simply stay on our debt total forever. We will simply roll this into our interest payments forever.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    The reason is because dividends come from corporate post-tax income while wages come from corporate pre-tax income. So they're already taxed and then getting taxed again. So for those with minimal dividends earnings its not worth chasing but for those with major earnings it is.
    But there are payroll taxes. I'd say stop fannying around making things "fair" in a way that actually only benefits wealthy people. In any case, shareholders should really be taxed on retained profit as well as distributed as they are beneficial owners of the business so corporation tax is really a proxy for that
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The RCS says no blacks, no going outish ...

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/1255744205844029440?s=21

    Imagine if it was the other way around...

    That said, if it's the right thing to do then it should be done.
    Years and years of bleating that we should all be treated as equals, now they start bleating we are not equals........WTF
    Do we have any actual real analysis of the issue - not just the raw information?

    i.e. numbers balanced agains the population makeup of the affected groups?
    Not, unfortunately, a direct an answer to your question, but there is now this:
    https://www.linkedin.com/posts/covid-19-actuaries-response-group_we-are-busy-finalising-our-next-bulletin-activity-6661271951484432385-Vi9f

    Not sure where the paper it's referencing is.

    As well-established, age is the big one, followed by various co-morbidities (led by obesity.

    Very tentatively, suggest that the low-ish impact on hazard driven by sex at birth might indicate that race is also less of a factor than it first appears, once other factors are properly controlled for?

    As one of the commenters notes, "it is challenging when you don't have a knowledge of the entire infected population with the same data on age, gender and co-morbidities".
    Thanks - I didn't think I'd seen anything published. What I have heard is statements that race is less of a real factor once the makeup of the at risk groups is taken into account. No actual numbers though
    Frankly, if I was in a position to, I might well deliberately avoid doing any sort of analysis on the impact of race. The potential for your career and/or personal life to be arbitrarily destroyed by a rampaging Twitter mob is a simply unacceptable risk. I'm glad I don't have to balance that risk against the potential that might save some lives, and I feel sorry for those that do.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    Exactly but Tories will never do that as they and their chums are the users of the loopholes and tax havens. Just amazes me the amount of non wealthy people simple enough to be conned into voting for these rapacious arseholes.
    Malc. Just watch this space.

    Boris and especially Rishi are a new bread of conservative and they will seek fairness in the taxes everyone is paying, indeed they will have no choice
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    You simply allow people to roll the liability up until the property is sold.
    People are already paying Council Tax on their home, why roll up another liability on top on people's homes? Or would you abolish Council Tax?
    People are NOT paying council tax on their home. They are paying council tax on their opportunity to reside in the local authority. Renters pay council tax, as well they should.

    Council tax is NOT a tax on assets.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    The reason is because dividends come from corporate post-tax income while wages come from corporate pre-tax income. So they're already taxed and then getting taxed again. So for those with minimal dividends earnings its not worth chasing but for those with major earnings it is.
    Remove corporation tax for all monies staying in the UK. All dividend income then becomes treated as income for income tax. Corporation tax also is the worst existing major tax for denting growth. (Monies being moved out of the UK and crossing boundaries needs to be looked at carefully)

    Set up a Land Value Tax on the value of land-plus-permissions. Only known tax to boost economic growth, and very difficult to conceal.
    ("I haven't got any land".
    -Points-
    "Okay, fair cop")
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited April 2020

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    Everybody could be made to formally declare their assets (like benefit claimants have to). Sure some will try to cheat and hide assets but that would be tax evasion - an imprisonable offence.

    Some will bleat about the issues of liquidising assets to pay a 1% pa tax, to which I say, tough - find a way.
    But the value of said asset will fall drastically as soon as it's chargeable to own. The money raised won't be anything near what people like you think it would be. Targeted wealth taxes are useful to get behavioural change in investment strategy among wealthy people, otherwise it's worse than useless and will put the nation into a lifetime of negative equity and make all banks insolvent.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    You can't really derive an income from the family home unless it is too big for your needs and you could get lodgers in. So people would have a choice of getting lodgers in or downsizing.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    Everybody could be made to formally declare their assets (like benefit claimants have to). Sure some will try to cheat and hide assets but that would be tax evasion - an imprisonable offence.

    Some will bleat about the issues of liquidising assets to pay a 1% pa tax, to which I say, tough - find a way.
    It's also a matter of valuation. What are the shares in the family company/self employment or whatever worth is notoriously difficult.

    The only way to do it is by how tax are already worked, by self-assessment. In which case the issue wouldn't be 'hiding' the assets, it would arguing over the valuation of them. HMRC don't have the resources to do it any other way (and still wouldn't even with increased funding), and it would be tied up in arguments and tribunals for years and years.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited April 2020

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    The reason is because dividends come from corporate post-tax income while wages come from corporate pre-tax income. So they're already taxed and then getting taxed again. So for those with minimal dividends earnings its not worth chasing but for those with major earnings it is.
    Remove corporation tax for all monies staying in the UK. All dividend income then becomes treated as income for income tax. Corporation tax also is the worst existing major tax for denting growth. (Monies being moved out of the UK and crossing boundaries needs to be looked at carefully)

    Set up a Land Value Tax on the value of land-plus-permissions. Only known tax to boost economic growth, and very difficult to conceal.
    ("I haven't got any land".
    -Points-
    "Okay, fair cop")
    Land is also a very difficult asset to move offshore :wink:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    If you are so desperate to raise tax BigG you may as well join Starmer's Labour Party as he will certainly impose a wealth tax, Boris won't
    Boris probably won't. FTFY. Boris is not a wealthy man, at least not by the standards of half his Cabinet. Remember Boris previously floated a mansion tax, which hits wealth, and raising the higher rate income tax threshold which would have benefited high earners like himself, for instance.
    Javid aides raised an Ed Miliband style Mansion tax, not Boris, Tory backbenchers were not happy and Javid has now left the Cabinet
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    TGOHF666 said:
    Must be time to tear down another statue.
    #Stop the OWM Vaccine!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    You simply allow people to roll the liability up until the property is sold.
    People are already paying Council Tax on their home, why roll up another liability on top on people's homes? Or would you abolish Council Tax?
    People are NOT paying council tax on their home. They are paying council tax on their opportunity to reside in the local authority. Renters pay council tax, as well they should.

    Council tax is NOT a tax on assets.
    Renters don't pay Council tax / rates in Northern Ireland unless it's above a certain value.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    There's walls of cash sitting on bank accounts at the moment, we need to get the conditions right so people invest it.
    They effectively do already, by providing banks with liquidity.
    That's a shitty investment.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Morning all, 3 quick thoughts -

    Header:

    Sentiments beautifully expressed and much sympathy for those feeling this way - but IMO overwrought. A vaccine is near certain in 2021. Virus to be controlled until then by living cautiously. In a matter of a year or so back to normal except a bit poorer. Still a first world prosperous country. Mine's a pint.

    "Boris":

    I gather he's fronting up the presser today, explaining R0 to the nation, and his lockdown thinking, and taking questions. If true, this implies I was wrong in my series of posts yesterday where I pretty much called him a skiver. So I take that back. Feel a touch sheepish.

    Lockdown:

    I urge people not to get their hopes up about an imminent relaxation. I have analyzed the balance of political risk in the decision and it steers very heavily to keeping the current regime in place until R0 is down towards the 0.5 mark - and such is known by SAGE with confidence. A realistic target IMO is 28th May.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    The reason is because dividends come from corporate post-tax income while wages come from corporate pre-tax income. So they're already taxed and then getting taxed again. So for those with minimal dividends earnings its not worth chasing but for those with major earnings it is.
    But there are payroll taxes. I'd say stop fannying around making things "fair" in a way that actually only benefits wealthy people. In any case, shareholders should really be taxed on retained profit as well as distributed as they are beneficial owners of the business so corporation tax is really a proxy for that
    A tax free allowance for dividends doesn't benefit wealthy people. It benefits people with tiny dividend amounts who don't have to mess around filing a tax return and it helps HMRC by not wasting HMRC's resources chasing tiny, tiny sums of money. If there were no tax free allowances would you suggest that someone earning £50 in dividends should file a tax return and be taxed on that £50?

    Those who are earning past the threshold are taxed on all their income past the threshold and have to file a tax return etc - its those below the threshold that are protected.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    You simply allow people to roll the liability up until the property is sold.
    People are already paying Council Tax on their home, why roll up another liability on top on people's homes? Or would you abolish Council Tax?
    People are NOT paying council tax on their home. They are paying council tax on their opportunity to reside in the local authority. Renters pay council tax, as well they should.

    Council tax is NOT a tax on assets.
    All people will care about ultimately is are they paying more or less than they used to.

    I for one do think taxes will have to rise, but it's how you do it.
  • I'd like to see any tax increases focussed on consumption, especially of, for example fossil fuels. Those activities that contribute towards the degradation of the environment and, ultimately, an even greater problem than Covid-19, should become expensive luxuries.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    No, we derive a notional income from their assets and tax it.
    You can't pay tax if you don't have cash. Are you arguing for putting a charge on people's homes or do you plan to force people to sell?
    There's walls of cash sitting on bank accounts at the moment, we need to get the conditions right so people invest it.
    They effectively do already, by providing banks with liquidity.
    That's a shitty investment.
    With current interest rates, yes it is.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    Exactly but Tories will never do that as they and their chums are the users of the loopholes and tax havens. Just amazes me the amount of non wealthy people simple enough to be conned into voting for these rapacious arseholes.
    Malc. Just watch this space.

    Boris and especially Rishi are a new bread of conservative and they will seek fairness in the taxes everyone is paying, indeed they will have no choice

    Your unfailing belief in the goodness of Boris and his Tory government is very touching Big_G.

    I really hope you get to tell me 'I told you so'... but I'm not holding my breath!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    Morning all, 3 quick thoughts -

    Header:

    Sentiments beautifully expressed and much sympathy for those feeling this way - but IMO overwrought. A vaccine is near certain in 2021. Virus to be controlled until then by living cautiously. In a matter of a year or so back to normal except a bit poorer. Still a first world prosperous country. Mine's a pint.

    "Boris":

    I gather he's fronting up the presser today, explaining R0 to the nation, and his lockdown thinking, and taking questions. If true, this implies I was wrong in my series of posts yesterday where I pretty much called him a skiver. So I take that back. Feel a touch sheepish.

    Lockdown:

    I urge people not to get their hopes up about an imminent relaxation. I have analyzed the balance of political risk in the decision and it steers very heavily to keeping the current regime in place until R0 is down towards the 0.5 mark - and such is known by SAGE with confidence. A realistic target IMO is 28th May.

    Credit to you for owning a mistake, especially to a political opponent. Always nice to see people put their hands up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    malcolmg said:

    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    Define wealthy.

    Pensioners currently living mortgage free?
    Families with salaries over 80k?
    People with more than one property?

    All of the above?



    Yes, that`s the problem isn`t it. I suspect that BigG meant much more wealthy than the three examples that you cite.
    I believe it is fairly easy to define wealth - anyone with income more than twice one's own.
    What if you are on jobseekers allowance
    Then those on minimum wage
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    I'd like to see any tax increases focussed on consumption, especially of, for example fossil fuels. Those activities that contribute towards the degradation of the environment and, ultimately, an even greater problem than Covid-19, should become expensive luxuries.

    The problem is that the 'super' rich will just swallow it, and its the ones which could only 'just' afford it will be the ones which won't.

    If you make flying more expensive, those which can easily anyway still will. The familys which scrip and save for their one week in the sun will be the ones which will be the most effected.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259

    TGOHF666 said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    A spitfire and hurricane doing a triple pass over Colonel Tom evokes so many memories for me

    He and they are an utter inspiration

    To think, we could have charged the Duke of Westminster a 0.3% wealth tax and raised just as much for the NHS.
    There can be no doubt that the wealthy are going to have to pay much more tax
    G, you are exceedingly naive, the wealthy do not pay much tax due to avoiding/evading it, you seriously think that will change or your Tory chums will close any of the loopholes/UK tax havens that facilitate it.
    Time to take of those blue tinted specs, the great unwashed will pay for it as usual, wealthy will not be inconvenienced one bit other than getting wealthier with the rich pickings that will be on offer at bargain basement prices.
    Make it simple. Everyone should just pay (say) 30% of their gross income, maybe if you earn over 100k. No allowances, no tax breaks. I bet it's more than the super-rich currently pay. Another way would be to deem a notional income from your net wealth, and levy a tax on the notional income
    So people sitting on big assets don't contribute?
    Assets are tough to tax unfortunately. Property, land and cars potentially - but everything else can be stashed under the bed.

    Hence why income and consumption get hammered by HMRC.
    I don't see why there are separate tax free allowances on dividend income and capital gains. Everyone should get the tax free allowance and then pay tax at their marginal rate on all other income.
    The reason is because dividends come from corporate post-tax income while wages come from corporate pre-tax income. So they're already taxed and then getting taxed again. So for those with minimal dividends earnings its not worth chasing but for those with major earnings it is.
    But there are payroll taxes. I'd say stop fannying around making things "fair" in a way that actually only benefits wealthy people. In any case, shareholders should really be taxed on retained profit as well as distributed as they are beneficial owners of the business so corporation tax is really a proxy for that
    A tax free allowance for dividends doesn't benefit wealthy people. It benefits people with tiny dividend amounts who don't have to mess around filing a tax return and it helps HMRC by not wasting HMRC's resources chasing tiny, tiny sums of money. If there were no tax free allowances would you suggest that someone earning £50 in dividends should file a tax return and be taxed on that £50?

    Those who are earning past the threshold are taxed on all their income past the threshold and have to file a tax return etc - its those below the threshold that are protected.
    No I'd put a de minimis in, maybe £100. In any case, you used to have tax deducted at source on dividends I think, as with bank interest.
This discussion has been closed.