I am getting a bit sick of these oldies going but but but but I am dead fit for my age I am. Great, good for you, but for CV, you are still at massive risk, so get in your bloody house and stay there.
Self-isolation is dreadful and they're being confronted with the possibility of having to keep this going for a year, two years, God alone knows how long. It's no wonder they're screaming blue murder.
We also know that, according to the latest figures from Italy, the vast bulk of Covid-19 fatalities are amongst the over 70s (bring that down to the over 60s and the figure is about 96%.)
We're told that we can't ease the lockdown because it will lead to a tsunami wave of new cases, and we're told that we can't maintain the lockdown because the economy will implode. A compromise involving splitting the population in two and letting the younger age cohorts go back to something vaguely resembling normal life, whilst ordering the oldies to stay at home, might turn out to be the least worst of the available selection of bad options.
Unfortunately, when Ferguson was asked about this, he said pre-lockdown it wasn't a viable option as too many oldies require interaction with younger people for every day services. His model said 100k would die even if 80% of oldies never came into contact with youngsters if it was spreading widely.
The same problems exist post-lockdown. There would have to be some huge adjustments to shield a very high % of oldies.
That being the case, I don't suppose he had any constructive suggestions as to how else we are actually meant to avoid the mass death of elderly people at the end of all this? We can't let everyone out because the whole thing will kick off again, we can't let younger people out whilst older people continue to self-isolate because it allegedly won't work (and there'll be caterwauling about unfairness, and the oldies might rebel anyway,) and we can't keep everyone locked up indefinitely because the economy will collapse and take everything else down with it (assuming that we don't all collectively rebel against it before things get that far.)
This doesn't appear to leave much in the way of other options...
I am getting a bit sick of these oldies going but but but but I am dead fit for my age I am. Great, good for you, but for CV, you are still at massive risk, so get in your bloody house and stay there.
Self-isolation is dreadful and they're being confronted with the possibility of having to keep this going for a year, two years, God alone knows how long. It's no wonder they're screaming blue murder.
We also know that, according to the latest figures from Italy, the vast bulk of Covid-19 fatalities are amongst the over 70s (bring that down to the over 60s and the figure is about 96%.)
We're told that we can't ease the lockdown because it will lead to a tsunami wave of new cases, and we're told that we can't maintain the lockdown because the economy will implode. A compromise involving splitting the population in two and letting the younger age cohorts go back to something vaguely resembling normal life, whilst ordering the oldies to stay at home, might turn out to be the least worst of the available selection of bad options.
Unfortunately, when Ferguson was asked about this, he said pre-lockdown it wasn't a viable option as too many oldies require interaction with younger people for every day services. His model said 100k would die even if 80% of oldies never came into contact with youngsters if it was spreading widely.
The same problems exist post-lockdown. There would have to be some huge adjustments to shield a very high % of oldies.
That being the case, I don't suppose he had any constructive suggestions as to how else we are actually meant to avoid the mass death of elderly people at the end of all this? We can't let everyone out because the whole thing will kick off again, we can't let younger people out whilst older people continue to self-isolate because it allegedly won't work (and there'll be caterwauling about unfairness, and the oldies might rebel anyway,) and we can't keep everyone locked up indefinitely because the economy will collapse and take everything else down with it (assuming that we don't all collectively rebel against it before things get that far.)
This doesn't appear to leave much in the way of other options...
if we are talking the unherd interview he came out very strongly for track and trace post getting numbers down. I think that is the best we can hope for.
There is a strong correlation between size of a country’s economy and the number of deaths.
Of the largest 20 economies (according to wiki, by GDP) fully 15 are in the top 20 for total deaths.
Of course big economies contain more people, so that’s expected. But 15 out of 20 is impressive. The ones missing are Oz, Korea, Japan, Indonesia (hmm) and Saudi
This suggests that being plugged into the global economy, thus creating wealth, is a central determinant of how bad a country is hit. So far. Unless you are East Asian.
Doesn't it also suggest a large cohort of oldies with co morbid conditions who simply wouldn't be alive still in most countries? This virus is culling the very old and very sick. They are already in most of the world.
There is a strong correlation between size of a country’s economy and the number of deaths.
Of the largest 20 economies (according to wiki, by GDP) fully 15 are in the top 20 for total deaths.
Of course big economies contain more people, so that’s expected. But 15 out of 20 is impressive. The ones missing are Oz, Korea, Japan, Indonesia (hmm) and Saudi
This suggests that being plugged into the global economy, thus creating wealth, is a central determinant of how bad a country is hit. So far. Unless you are East Asian.
Countries who have been rich for a long time = established healthcare system where people live longer....and in the West bad diets = fatties, heart disease, diabetes....
Also big economies will have more trade and interaction with China, and more mobile domestic and foreign populations, to spread the disease early
Oh absolutely. We only have to look at Mr Super Spreader, travel to Far East for conference, then straight off skiiing in the Alps, before back home. 3 countries, 2 weeks, dozen+ infected.
It is also why I think outside of Korea, Australia have done the best of all the developed countries. Strong links to China, huge amount of travel from citizens across Asia, densely populated in the major cities.
Australia and New Zealand have also benefited from not being in the Goldilocks zone, as far as we can tell, in terms of the temperature and humidity for the virus to flourish in March/April. Not saying they haven't also done well in policy terms, but it's probably a factor.
In terms of richer countries being more affected, I think we also need to take figures in less developed areas with a huge pinch of salt. Poorer countries are less likely to have universal healthcare, and deaths are more likely to happen at home and not show up in figures. They are also more likely to have governments with weaker independent agencies and greater ability to manipulate figures. An article in the FT showed "excess deaths" in several places which are out of all proportion with official Coronavirus deaths - there's an underestimate everywhere (care home deaths etc) but are the Ecuador official figures remotely reflective in any way? No chance.
The stories coming out of Brazil makes it appear like it is definitely worse than official figures.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Do you have any evidence of that - and do they report any violence by Muslims in India?
Plenty of reports of Christian missionaries, for example, being attacked by Hindu nationalists.
I really strongly recommend this story to anyone who wants to get a feel for what is going on in India
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
They may look like a khaki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_Spode but they are really nasty. Not very good in a standup fight, but highly qualified in beating elderly Muslims to death in the street (as long as they have a 100-1 advantage) for example.
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
What message is the Orange Devil's hairdresser trying to send?
I notice an ever ongoing change between 50 shades of (kind of) blond, straight orange and the grey we see today. I'm trying, but struggling, to figure out any regular pattern. What is the information he's trying to signal?
There is a strong correlation between size of a country’s economy and the number of deaths.
Of the largest 20 economies (according to wiki, by GDP) fully 15 are in the top 20 for total deaths.
Of course big economies contain more people, so that’s expected. But 15 out of 20 is impressive. The ones missing are Oz, Korea, Japan, Indonesia (hmm) and Saudi
This suggests that being plugged into the global economy, thus creating wealth, is a central determinant of how bad a country is hit. So far. Unless you are East Asian.
Countries who have been rich for a long time = established healthcare system where people live longer....and in the West bad diets = fatties, heart disease, diabetes....
Also big economies will have more trade and interaction with China, and more mobile domestic and foreign populations, to spread the disease early
Oh absolutely. We only have to look at Mr Super Spreader, travel to Far East for conference, then straight off skiiing in the Alps, before back home. 3 countries, 2 weeks, dozen+ infected.
It is also why I think outside of Korea, Australia have done the best of all the developed countries. Strong links to China, huge amount of travel from citizens across Asia, densely populated in the major cities.
Yes. Oz has done very well. A fact which has perplexed and largely silenced my left wing Aussie friends, who regard their prime minister as an antipodean trump/Boris
That said, it may just be luck. Spanish flu hit the northern hemisphere first. Then went south for summer.
Australia locked down early, after just 7 deaths. We waited until over 300 were dead. If we had locked down a week earlier, we could perhaps have been Australia!
What message is the Orange Devil's hairdresser trying to send?
I notice an ever ongoing change between 50 shades of (kind of) blond, straight orange and the grey we see today. I'm trying, but struggling, to figure out any regular pattern. What is the information he's trying to signal?
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly me reminds of something....
Is Britain's standard for antibody tests TOO high? Chinese-made coronavirus blood kit which 'FAILED strict checks' in the UK but was adopted in China is 81.8% accurate
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
What message is the Orange Devil's hairdresser trying to send?
I notice an ever ongoing change between 50 shades of (kind of) blond, straight orange and the grey we see today. I'm trying, but struggling, to figure out any regular pattern. What is the information he's trying to signal?
Curious case: Bulgaria. Has by far the lowest testing rate in the EU, has a lot of oldies ..... yet has almost no deaths, 10x lower than Germany per capita.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
I realise that attacking religious minorities other than Muslims might have become slightly off-message for the BJP recently (witness the recent nationality law that specifically groups Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis and Christians with Hindus), but are you seriously suggesting there haven't been numerous well-documented attacks on Christmas going back many years by the RSS and sister-organisations?
I am getting a bit sick of these oldies going but but but but I am dead fit for my age I am. Great, good for you, but for CV, you are still at massive risk, so get in your bloody house and stay there.
Self-isolation is dreadful and they're being confronted with the possibility of having to keep this going for a year, two years, God alone knows how long. It's no wonder they're screaming blue murder.
We also know that, according to the latest figures from Italy, the vast bulk of Covid-19 fatalities are amongst the over 70s (bring that down to the over 60s and the figure is about 96%.)
We're told that we can't ease the lockdown because it will lead to a tsunami wave of new cases, and we're told that we can't maintain the lockdown because the economy will implode. A compromise involving splitting the population in two and letting the younger age cohorts go back to something vaguely resembling normal life, whilst ordering the oldies to stay at home, might turn out to be the least worst of the available selection of bad options.
Unfortunately, when Ferguson was asked about this, he said pre-lockdown it wasn't a viable option as too many oldies require interaction with younger people for every day services. His model said 100k would die even if 80% of oldies never came into contact with youngsters if it was spreading widely.
The same problems exist post-lockdown. There would have to be some huge adjustments to shield a very high % of oldies.
I am getting a bit sick of these oldies going but but but but I am dead fit for my age I am. Great, good for you, but for CV, you are still at massive risk, so get in your bloody house and stay there.
Self-isolation is dreadful and they're being confronted with the possibility of having to keep this going for a year, two years, God alone knows how long. It's no wonder they're screaming blue murder.
We also know that, according to the latest figures from Italy, the vast bulk of Covid-19 fatalities are amongst the over 70s (bring that down to the over 60s and the figure is about 96%.)
We're told that we can't ease the lockdown because it will lead to a tsunami wave of new cases, and we're told that we can't maintain the lockdown because the economy will implode. A compromise involving splitting the population in two and letting the younger age cohorts go back to something vaguely resembling normal life, whilst ordering the oldies to stay at home, might turn out to be the least worst of the available selection of bad options.
Unfortunately, when Ferguson was asked about this, he said pre-lockdown it wasn't a viable option as too many oldies require interaction with younger people for every day services. His model said 100k would die even if 80% of oldies never came into contact with youngsters if it was spreading widely.
The same problems exist post-lockdown. There would have to be some huge adjustments to shield a very high % of oldies.
Or we send them to New Zealand...
Or Cornwall...and kick out all the second home owning celebs. Border at the Tamar bridge.
So if a big East Asian country - cough - with a fondness for bat chop suey - cough cough - wanted to create a bug that would take out all it’s economic rivals, this would be a good bug to release
Except that something that disproportionately killed old people solves the biggest issue Western countries have - bloody awful dependency ratios.
I am getting a bit sick of these oldies going but but but but I am dead fit for my age I am. Great, good for you, but for CV, you are still at massive risk, so get in your bloody house and stay there.
Self-isolation is dreadful and they're being confronted with the possibility of having to keep this going for a year, two years, God alone knows how long. It's no wonder they're screaming blue murder.
We also know that, according to the latest figures from Italy, the vast bulk of Covid-19 fatalities are amongst the over 70s (bring that down to the over 60s and the figure is about 96%.)
We're told that we can't ease the lockdown because it will lead to a tsunami wave of new cases, and we're told that we can't maintain the lockdown because the economy will implode. A compromise involving splitting the population in two and letting the younger age cohorts go back to something vaguely resembling normal life, whilst ordering the oldies to stay at home, might turn out to be the least worst of the available selection of bad options.
Unfortunately, when Ferguson was asked about this, he said pre-lockdown it wasn't a viable option as too many oldies require interaction with younger people for every day services. His model said 100k would die even if 80% of oldies never came into contact with youngsters if it was spreading widely.
The same problems exist post-lockdown. There would have to be some huge adjustments to shield a very high % of oldies.
That being the case, I don't suppose he had any constructive suggestions as to how else we are actually meant to avoid the mass death of elderly people at the end of all this? We can't let everyone out because the whole thing will kick off again, we can't let younger people out whilst older people continue to self-isolate because it allegedly won't work (and there'll be caterwauling about unfairness, and the oldies might rebel anyway,) and we can't keep everyone locked up indefinitely because the economy will collapse and take everything else down with it (assuming that we don't all collectively rebel against it before things get that far.)
This doesn't appear to leave much in the way of other options...
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
I am getting a bit sick of these oldies going but but but but I am dead fit for my age I am. Great, good for you, but for CV, you are still at massive risk, so get in your bloody house and stay there.
Self-isolation is dreadful and they're being confronted with the possibility of having to keep this going for a year, two years, God alone knows how long. It's no wonder they're screaming blue murder.
We also know that, according to the latest figures from Italy, the vast bulk of Covid-19 fatalities are amongst the over 70s (bring that down to the over 60s and the figure is about 96%.)
We're told that we can't ease the lockdown because it will lead to a tsunami wave of new cases, and we're told that we can't maintain the lockdown because the economy will implode. A compromise involving splitting the population in two and letting the younger age cohorts go back to something vaguely resembling normal life, whilst ordering the oldies to stay at home, might turn out to be the least worst of the available selection of bad options.
Unfortunately, when Ferguson was asked about this, he said pre-lockdown it wasn't a viable option as too many oldies require interaction with younger people for every day services. His model said 100k would die even if 80% of oldies never came into contact with youngsters if it was spreading widely.
The same problems exist post-lockdown. There would have to be some huge adjustments to shield a very high % of oldies.
Or we send them to New Zealand...
Or Cornwall...and kick out all the second home owning celebs.
The second home owners (aka Fulham fuckers) who have piled down here don't seem to have brought the virus with them. Maybe their au pairs forgot to pack it?
They may look like a khaki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_Spode but they are really nasty. Not very good in a standup fight, but highly qualified in beating elderly Muslims to death in the street (as long as they have a 100-1 advantage) for example.
To be fair, it doesn’t sound that different to dozens of other ethno-nationalist.movements which fought against imperialism in the 19th-20th centuries
Ireland to Israel, Turkey to Tunisia
Astonishingly ignorant comment.
Especially as one of their number murdered Gandhi.
They may look like a khaki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_Spode but they are really nasty. Not very good in a standup fight, but highly qualified in beating elderly Muslims to death in the street (as long as they have a 100-1 advantage) for example.
To be fair, it doesn’t sound that different to dozens of other ethno-nationalist.movements which fought against imperialism in the 19th-20th centuries
Ireland to Israel, Turkey to Tunisia
Astonishingly ignorant comment.
Especially as one of their number murdered Gandhi.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Oh and 20% of the population are Christian, including my Uncle and his family (he converted a fair few years ago).
Curious case: Bulgaria. Has by far the lowest testing rate in the EU, has a lot of oldies ..... yet has almost no deaths, 10x lower than Germany per capita.
So if a big East Asian country - cough - with a fondness for bat chop suey - cough cough - wanted to create a bug that would take out all it’s economic rivals, this would be a good bug to release
Except that something that disproportionately killed old people solves the biggest issue Western countries have - bloody awful dependency ratios.
To be fair, though, China shares our demographic problems.
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
I realise that attacking religious minorities other than Muslims might have become slightly off-message for the BJP recently (witness the recent nationality law that specifically groups Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis and Christians with Hindus), but are you seriously suggesting there haven't been numerous well-documented attacks on Christmas going back many years by the RSS and sister-organisations?
Have there? Source please? Christians make up 20% of the population in Kerala (where I was born). Non-Christians tend to take Christmas celebrations as seriously as the Christians down there.
They may look like a khaki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_Spode but they are really nasty. Not very good in a standup fight, but highly qualified in beating elderly Muslims to death in the street (as long as they have a 100-1 advantage) for example.
To be fair, it doesn’t sound that different to dozens of other ethno-nationalist.movements which fought against imperialism in the 19th-20th centuries
Ireland to Israel, Turkey to Tunisia
Astonishingly ignorant comment.
Especially as one of their number murdered Gandhi.
No idea. Does he mean God, Jesus, Satan or just Obama?
Bonkers.
Unless America dumps this guy then their Republic and certainly their role in the world is over.
What a ridiculous statement, regardless of who wins in November the USA will still be the largest economy in the world and with the biggest military next year
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off, got myself into a scuffle after pulling plugs out of sockets. Heard later that some greater hero had killed their generator with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
I realise that attacking religious minorities other than Muslims might have become slightly off-message for the BJP recently (witness the recent nationality law that specifically groups Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis and Christians with Hindus), but are you seriously suggesting there haven't been numerous well-documented attacks on Christmas going back many years by the RSS and sister-organisations?
Have there? Source please? Christians make up 20% of the population in Kerala (where I was born). Non-Christians tend to take Christmas celebrations as seriously as the Christians down there.
It seemed to be widely celebrated in 2019 with a lot more than a 20% Christian participation in Munnar
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
So now you're quoting a far-right hindu nationalist. You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you?
Is he? I have no idea. No serious historian disputes that the Islamic conquests were brutal for Hindus in India
But, your laughable lack of knowledge about Ireland, Israel, Turkey and Tunisia shows that you’re not to be taken seriously. So that’s fine. You’re here to entertain. After a fashion.
They also ended 1800 years of Buddhism as the dominant religion in India. It had exhausted it's merit and was already in decline. No armies see.
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Still some way to go yet, challengers often lead in Spring and early Summer before the incumbent pulls it back after the convention and in the autumn and with a negative ad campaign
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Trump is tottering like some mad despot in late communist Europe. Ceaucescu maybe.
A remarkable spectacle
Unedifying to my eyes.
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
So now you're quoting a far-right hindu nationalist. You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you?
You deny Muslims commit acts of terrorism? In the UK as well as Germany?
What??
I am 1 disputing the figures and characterisation of Indian history in the shitty article eadruc linked to. 2 saying "has to be seen in the historical context" is despicable. It would be as if a political movement in England arose demonising Catholics, attacking them, burning them in their homes and someone excused it by saying "it has to be seen in the historical context of Bloody Mary"
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
I reckon there may be more of a chance of him stepping down. His ego wouldn't allow him to be a loser. Some excuse will be found if those numbers stay the same. They point to a rout.
What message is the Orange Devil's hairdresser trying to send?
I notice an ever ongoing change between 50 shades of (kind of) blond, straight orange and the grey we see today. I'm trying, but struggling, to figure out any regular pattern. What is the information he's trying to signal?
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
So now you're quoting a far-right hindu nationalist. You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you?
You deny Muslims commit acts of terrorism? In the UK as well as Germany?
What??
I am 1 disputing the figures and characterisation of Indian history in the shitty article eadruc linked to. 2 saying "has to be seen in the historical context" is despicable. It would be as if a political movement in England arose demonising Catholics, attacking them, burning them in their homes and someone excused it by saying "it has to be seen in the historical context of Bloody Mary"
Muslims extremists kill people too. In THIS COUNTRY. And yours.
A thought experiment. What would the numbers be had the Dems found a candidate like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama right now? I mean the empathetic, charismatic candidate with no record, not the one viewed through the lens of 8 years of government. Catastrophic for Trump I would reckon. Trump is lucky to have Biden. And Biden sure is lucky to have Trump.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
So now you're quoting a far-right hindu nationalist. You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you?
You deny Muslims commit acts of terrorism? In the UK as well as Germany?
What??
I am 1 disputing the figures and characterisation of Indian history in the shitty article eadruc linked to. 2 saying "has to be seen in the historical context" is despicable. It would be as if a political movement in England arose demonising Catholics, attacking them, burning them in their homes and someone excused it by saying "it has to be seen in the historical context of Bloody Mary"
Muslims extremists kill people too. In THIS COUNTRY. And yours.
What has that got to do with anything I have written?
It's as if government-backed mobs start burning down Hindu homes in England, and someone says "yes but Hindu extremists have killed people in India"
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Trump is tottering like some mad despot in late communist Europe. Ceaucescu maybe.
A remarkable spectacle
Unedifying to my eyes.
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I was distantly amused, or bemused, by Trump. I thought he was a very very bad choice. But I didn’t get the haters.
Now I do, He’s a menace to us all
I was of the same view. Although from a different political standpoint. Ignore what he says watch what he does. Mostly he did not much different to any Rep President. Cut taxes. Worshipped the stock market. Indulged Evangelicals. Not my bag but hey. Not my country. The virus suggests he may well be genuinely unbalanced.
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Trump is tottering like some mad despot in late communist Europe. Ceaucescu maybe.
A remarkable spectacle
Unedifying to my eyes.
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I was distantly amused, or bemused, by Trump. I thought he was a very very bad choice. But I didn’t get the haters.
Now I do, He’s a menace to us all
I still think he's going to win in November, because the alternative is Woke leftism.
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Trump is tottering like some mad despot in late communist Europe. Ceaucescu maybe.
A remarkable spectacle
Unedifying to my eyes.
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I was distantly amused, or bemused, by Trump. I thought he was a very very bad choice. But I didn’t get the haters.
Now I do, He’s a menace to us all
I still think he's going to win in November, because the alternative is Woke leftism.
That may have been the case with Warren, Sanders or even Buttigieg but Biden is neither Woke nor that leftist which is why he was always Trump's most dangerous opponent and the one most likely to appeal to swing voters in the Midwest
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Trump is tottering like some mad despot in late communist Europe. Ceaucescu maybe.
A remarkable spectacle
Unedifying to my eyes.
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I was distantly amused, or bemused, by Trump. I thought he was a very very bad choice. But I didn’t get the haters.
Now I do, He’s a menace to us all
I still think he's going to win in November, because the alternative is Woke leftism.
Trump will definitely go all anti-China and I can see the Democrats getting in a mess over responding, cos their instincts will be to bang on about racist, but I think the public mood will be for securing the US and not being reliant on other countries for essentials.
I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with church bells chiming every hour and ringing every Sunday
You haven’t travelled much, have you? The call to prayer is very intrusive and divisive, where it is allowed in multicultural countries
In India it’s one of the main causes of Hindu-Islamic tension, which has led to horrible violence. Hindus often cite it as one reason they dislike their Muslim neighbours.
I’d rather we avoided Indian style anger. Because that noise, heard 5 times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, drives people nuts
I heard it regularly when I was in Bethlehem and Nablus only last year.
If we are a nation which allows religious freedom, as we do, then that has to include allowing full respect for religious tradition, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu and in areas with a large Muslim population such as London that would include the call to prayer from Mosques
So you’d be OK with it five times a day, every day, starting at dawn, for the rest of time?
How about the rights of non-Muslims in that neighbourhood not to have this wailing enforced on them?
Lots of Muslims dislike the imposition of the call to prayer, and think it is too much via loudspeakers.
Yes, in East London and Birmingham up to half of the local population or more is Muslim in some areas so there would be strong demand for the call to prayer from the local mosque.
If we allow non-Muslims to stop the call to prayer we could also end up with non-Christians stopping the ringing of church bells in country villages and market towns
And what about the half of people who aren’t Muslim? Are they allowed to object to a very loud wailing waking them up every day at 5am? Or do they have to accept it because it is ‘religious’
If they don't like it move out of East London, to Richmond on Thames or the Home Counties for example where the Muslim population is very small, not that difficult
Ah. So the non Muslims who don’t like it should just move. Out of their own neighbourhood. Brilliant.
And what if they move to a small Home Counties town, well stocked with hot broth, but Muslims move in next door and start praying? Where do they move then? America? The moon?
I don't have a problem with Hare Krishna people doing stupid singing. I don't have a problem with Hasidic Jews wearing odd outfits. I don't have a problem with people spilling out of nightclubs at 3am off their faces.
This is a free country. If they're not harming anyone, people can do what the fuck they like.
My god. The stupid on here is intense tonight.
The call to prayer is entirely different to Jews in bloody dreadlocks. It is a significant and constant intrusion INTO your daily life, whether you like it or not. You can’t avoid it.
I can only presume that the Pb-ers who happily accept this have never spent serious time in Muslim countries so they don’t know what the F they are talking about
Like I said. I find the prayer haunting and beautiful, but if you’re living in a flat next to a mosque and it happens five times a day, deafeningly loud. your attitude might sour
I went to the 2005 G8 protests in Scotland, ended up sleeping in a tent in a public park the night after. Sometime in the early morning light a small group of people turned a generator on and a very loud music system, kept the whole lot of us awake for the sake of a dozen people enjoying a party.
That right pissed me off,with sugar.
I'm not having anyone waking me up at an ungodly hour.
Indeed. Broken sleep can send people mad with anger.
Some of the nastiest household arguments I’ve witnessed have happened when someone shattered the sleep of someone else.
The problem in India is serious, it’s an obvious source of friction
That would have absolutely nothing to do with the anti-muslim government of India. No, nothing at all. Look - squirrel!
The Indian government is bigoted. Would never deny that. But the call to prayer is a genuine grievance for many Hindus. There are hundreds of news articles about it, here’s just one
The Indian government is led by a chap whose private army consists of these wonderful chaps -
All they need is to change the shorts to some black ones...
Have they attacked Jews?
I suspect they would if there were more than an insignificant Jeswish presence in India. After all they attack all other religious minorities, but particularly Muslims.
They are ISIS in saffron.
Very much based on European fascist movements rather than ISIS
An Indian friend mentions that they will attack Christians, if there aren't any Muslims conveniently available as victims.
Source please?
Sorry - just going by what my Indian friend told me.
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly reminds of something....
I was born in southern India, Kerala to be precise. Muslims form 25% of the state's population. No communal strife down there, from what my family tell me.
No trouble visible there when i visited in December. A fair bit in the news from other regions. Kerela is delightful as were all the people i met.
Hindu violence against Muslims in India is abhorrent, obviously. But it needs to be seen in the historical context of Muslim violence against Hindus in India.
By some measures the various Islamic conquests of India were the most brutal campaigns in the history of humanity
‘There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.‘
So now you're quoting a far-right hindu nationalist. You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you?
You deny Muslims commit acts of terrorism? In the UK as well as Germany?
What??
I am 1 disputing the figures and characterisation of Indian history in the shitty article eadruc linked to. 2 saying "has to be seen in the historical context" is despicable. It would be as if a political movement in England arose demonising Catholics, attacking them, burning them in their homes and someone excused it by saying "it has to be seen in the historical context of Bloody Mary"
You’re a dimwit
Irish animosity to England has to be seen in the context of centuries of English brutality in Ireland. As an Englishman I accept that. The Famine is a stain on our reputation.
It doesn’t excuse the IRA’s many atrocities, but it does help to understand them, and why they would do them. And that’s the way to peace in the end.
Similarly, if a Jew, or a Pole, or a Gypsy, or a homosexual, or a Russian, or a disabled person, or a Cretan, or a Dane, or a Slav, or a Ukrainian, or any conscious human being on all of God’s green earth had an animosity against Germany, and the Germans, that too would be understandable. In the context of 20th century history
Of course that 20th century history is much closer than the Indian "history" you ignorantly and despicably chose to link to.
But even so if government - backed mobs started killing ethnic Germans anywhere on all of "God's green earth" I would condemn anyone saying "to be fair" or "this has to be seen in the context of Hitler"
BTW, contrary to what you and your hindutva friends try to pretend, Indian Muslims are Indians too.
America's choice in November, between two people who appear to struggle to read or remember anything, and are very creepy around women.
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
This coming US election would not be credible as comic fiction
Putting aside Bernie as too extreme. The thing is, I don't particularly care for Warren, but not a moron, Mayor Pete, smart guy, Yang, another smart guy, who definitely identified problems better than all of them (although his solutions not so sure about). And yet they pick the bloke who appears he might be senile and definitely very odd around women / kids....
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
The Democrats picked the best candidate to win the rustbelt and beat Trump and the current polling suggests they were right.
Those are terrible numbers for Trump. He is behind in all the swing States.A wonder he is still available to lay at Evens.
Will he be the candidate if numbers keep getting worse? Any chance he will 'retire' or be pushed out by GOP?
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
Trump is tottering like some mad despot in late communist Europe. Ceaucescu maybe.
A remarkable spectacle
Unedifying to my eyes.
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I was distantly amused, or bemused, by Trump. I thought he was a very very bad choice. But I didn’t get the haters.
Now I do, He’s a menace to us all
I still think he's going to win in November, because the alternative is Woke leftism.
Biden is woke leftism? Sorry but that term lost all meaning. Just like as evening in with a curry lost cultural appropriation. The alternative is a President entirely out of touch with reality.. Not my country not my problem.
I see the government scheme to give £60k to families of NHS workers who have died isn't enough. Unions and Lib Dems already calling for it to cover all key workers.
The government could promise £100k to every person in the country and they would still be claiming it wasn't enough.
WTF. There is a poster on here saying attacks on the Muslim minority in India are an anti-imperialist movement and have to be seen in the context of stuff that happened (or not) many centuries ago.
Would you guys tolerate a poster saying attacks on Jews have to be seen in the context of even current Israeli government actions?
Trump will definitely go all anti-China and I can see the Democrats getting in a mess over responding, cos their instincts will be to bang on about racist, but I think the public mood will be for securing the US and not being reliant on other countries for essentials.
This is where Biden is a much better candidate than Hillary, because he campaigns for the voters he's got, not the voters he wishes he had.
Trump will definitely go all anti-China and I can see the Democrats getting in a mess over responding, cos their instincts will be to bang on about racist, but I think the public mood will be for securing the US and not being reliant on other countries for essentials.
This is where Biden is a much better candidate than Hillary, because he campaigns for the voters he's got, not the voters he wishes he had.
There’s a palpable feeling here in the US that Trump’s response to the coronavirus in general, and the disinfectant thing in particular, represents a tipping point. Even the most hyper-partisan Trumpists are having to admit, yes, the President did just did suggest drinking bleach.
Denying or justifying this sort of stuff is pretty shameful Sunil.
"The BJP has not publicly spoken on the rising number of attacks on Christians. In the lead up to last year's election, a BJP MP from Karnataka said that seats in parliament should not go to Christians because they "are not honest and loyal citizens of India''. "
There’s a palpable feeling here in the US that Trump’s response to the coronavirus in general, and the disinfectant thing in particular, represents a tipping point. Even the most hyper-partisan Trumpists are having to admit, yes, the President did just did suggest drinking bleach.
Yes that's my reading of American media. The ‘injection of disinfectant‘ was a tipping point.
Any reasonable democrat candidate should win at a canter from here. Unfortunately the democrats are possibly as inept as the UK Lib Dems, on a much grander scale, and they have somehow nominated a senile groper as candidate.
May God help America. They need it
It's interesting that the states seem to be becoming much more assertive again. California's governor even referred to them being a 'nation state' several times. Perhaps it's the US model of a monarchical Presidency that's showing its age, not just the candidates.
The notice from the Paediatric Intensive Care Society seems to be because a dozen or so children have developed a COVID19 induced inflammation of the coronary blood vessels.
What a tool...imagine if we have the Communist Cable Company...that fails and the whole country is shit out of luck. I imagine the reason he can still tweet this, is because you know he has another internet connection (via his mobile).
Comments
For the sake of the world, can we have a do-over....and start again.
Bonkers.
Unless America dumps this guy then their Republic and certainly their role in the world is over.
Incredibly, this country put man on the moon.
I really strongly recommend this story to anyone who wants to get a feel for what is going on in India
https://www.wired.com/story/indias-frightening-descent-social-media-terror/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh
Even Bloomberg, who might have personality vacuum, but a genuinely successful man who ran NY well for many years.
No we will give ourselves the choice of the stable genius currently in the role or the senile bloke whose every sentence includes "President Obama".
https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1254898343341371394
They may look like a khaki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_Spode but they are really nasty. Not very good in a standup fight, but highly qualified in beating elderly Muslims to death in the street (as long as they have a 100-1 advantage) for example.
I notice an ever ongoing change between 50 shades of (kind of) blond, straight orange and the grey we see today. I'm trying, but struggling, to figure out any regular pattern. What is the information he's trying to signal?
Apparently they see anyone not "the right kind of Hindu" as an Enemy Of India.
Coming from Belfast, that certainly me reminds of something....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8262463/Is-Britains-standard-antibody-tests-high.html
Even by the Mail's standards....clearly absolutely no idea about some very simple statistics / probability.
Public mask use was made mandatory in March.
deleted
Especially as one of their number murdered Gandhi.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/coronavirus/news/the-brief-is-eastern-europe-more-resilient-to-covid-19/
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1254881252676640769?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1254880239341240322?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1254771477133398029?s=19
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1254622107574599682?s=20
Last time i couldn't see how Hillary could beat him. Now i don't see how he can win, despite Bidens short comings.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/27/gaps-sage-scientific-body-scientists-medical
I have always disliked the demonisation or belittling of Trump as i think it is right to respect the office of POTUS, but that is increasingly difficult eith each utterance from him.
I am
1 disputing the figures and characterisation of Indian history in the shitty article eadruc linked to.
2 saying "has to be seen in the historical context" is despicable. It would be as if a political movement in England arose demonising Catholics, attacking them, burning them in their homes and someone excused it by saying "it has to be seen in the historical context of Bloody Mary"
They point to a rout.
I mean the empathetic, charismatic candidate with no record, not the one viewed through the lens of 8 years of government.
Catastrophic for Trump I would reckon.
Trump is lucky to have Biden. And Biden sure is lucky to have Trump.
It's as if government-backed mobs start burning down Hindu homes in England, and someone says "yes but Hindu extremists have killed people in India"
https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1254134556053114882?s=20
Group says nudity is ‘a symbol of how vulnerable we are without protection’"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/27/german-doctors-pose-naked-in-protest-at-ppe-shortages
The virus suggests he may well be genuinely unbalanced.
Of course that 20th century history is much closer than the Indian "history" you ignorantly and despicably chose to link to.
But even so if government - backed mobs started killing ethnic Germans anywhere on all of "God's green earth" I would condemn anyone saying "to be fair" or "this has to be seen in the context of Hitler"
BTW, contrary to what you and your hindutva friends try to pretend, Indian Muslims are Indians too.
The alternative is a President entirely out of touch with reality.. Not my country not my problem.
You really seem to be saying that attacks on Muslims in India are excused because of terrorist attacks in Germany.
The government could promise £100k to every person in the country and they would still be claiming it wasn't enough.
Would you guys tolerate a poster saying attacks on Jews have to be seen in the context of even current Israeli government actions?
I wouldn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmieUrXwKCc&feature=emb_title
Remember too it was the black vote that got Obama re elected, Romney won the highest share of the white vote since Bush Snr in 1988
For RSS attacks on Christians in India.
Denying or justifying this sort of stuff is pretty shameful Sunil.
"The BJP has not publicly spoken on the rising number of attacks on Christians. In the lead up to last year's election, a BJP MP from Karnataka said that seats in parliament should not go to Christians because they "are not honest and loyal citizens of India''. "
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-social-distancing-after-lockdown-could-ruin-us-warn-businesses-gsllpwdg0
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/27/nhs-warns-of-rise-in-children-with-new-illness-that-may-be-linked-to-coronavirus
It looks to be pretty rare, but pretty nasty.
Discuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY