Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
I'm a state educated Oxford grad who thinks it's a thoroughly disgusting policy. What would be better is if they stopped insisting on degrees for jobs that simply involve writing emails and going to meetings (known as the Senior Civil Service).
Disgusting and horribly unfair if implemented suddenly, yes. But with (say) 5 years notice and then phased in gradually. That would be OK, I think.
I hear you re civil service. But most lucrative prestige jobs just involve writing emails and going to meetings. Sometimes a bit of telephone.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
3. Gowns and coveralls Fluid repellent hospital gowns or coveralls are indicated for use for the care of patients in high risk areas, where aerosol generating procedures (AGPs) are being performed.
There are 3 main options that can be considered as alternatives if gowns are not available:
Reserve disposable, fluid repellent gown or coveralls for AGPs and surgical procedures.
Disposable, non-fluid repellent gowns or coveralls with a disposable plastic apron for high-risk settings and AGPs with forearm washing once gown or coverall is removed.
Reusable (washable) surgical gowns or coveralls or similar suitable clothing (for example, long-sleeved laboratory coat, long-sleeved patient gown or industrial coverall) with a disposable plastic apron for AGPs and high-risk settings with forearm washing once gown or coverall is removed. These would need to be washed in a hospital laundry and capacity for hospital laundries may need to be increased.
The discussion pre thread on Spain's shedload of new cases is very timely.
The same could be said - I said it two weeks ago - of Italy's new cases.
These countries are many weeks into lockdown. Where and how are they getting infected? Are they key workers, is it happening in households, care homes, hospitals?
It shouldn't be hard to find out: ask them what they've been doing the last 2-3 weeks.
Armed with that info we could start relaxing the lockdown with the right precautions, or giving PPE to those key workers, maybe even divide households. Or just abandon lockdowns a la Suedois
Oh, and, of course, we should all be wearing masks FFS, as even the British government is now slowly admitting.
I think there are a couple of elements here.
Firstlough.
There are also other possibilities that are slight, but exist. Could domestic pets be carriers, for example?
Interesting and thoughtful, and my point remains good: just ask the new cases where they've been for the last few weeks. That will give us a rough and ready idea where new infections are happening. Which would be useful.
If the bulk are household transmission, then we either have to accept Corona will burn through families, or we have to get even more draconian and send people within families to quarantine centres.
Re your comment about pets. I just did a quick Twitter search on the words "Wuhan" and "dog" looking for that famous video of someone walking the dog by lowering it from an apartment window on a rope.
Instead, I found a video of a Chinese chef (at a wet market, I think) cheerfully cooking a dog alive.
It is one of the worst videos I have ever seen. It is branded on my brain.
China must pay for the barbaric cruelties of its wet markets, which are now being visited on the rest of us.
It's a shame that the rest of us have to suffer for the barbarism of meat-eaters and their insatiable hunger for flesh.
Coronavirus is making me rethink my attitude to many things, and one of those is meat-eating. Whether I emerge from this the same eager omnivore I was, I don't know.
The Satan Bug is also making me rethink my attitudes to China. Yes we can blame the Chinese Communist Party for the terrible cover up (and probably the lab that bred this bastard) but the party is not responsible for Chinese culture of eating wild animals, the rarer the better. They often cook them alive because that is said to improve the flavour
Here's an article from 2003 expressing fears that the Chinese taste for boiled owls, fried scorpions, wriggling snakes, sauteed pangolins, will one day lead to a terrible disease
Everyone could make a stand and stop eating Chinese food, in any guise, until all their hideous markets are closed down. It can't be any hardship for China to do so. And enforce it ferociously. They normally aren't squeamish. Otherwise it will just go underground, with rich fools still paying a fortune to eat a tiger's cock instead of popping viagra.
How much Chinese food that's been anywhere near China do we eat in the first place? It seems harsh to punish the UK Chinese restaurant trade for the motherland's failings. (Disclaimer: I almost never eat UK Chinese food because it's so terrible in the provinces).
It would be just weird, shades of Italian caffs getting smashed up for serving frothy coffee in 1939.
It was the chocolate not the froth that people objected too...
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
Not yet.
But of course, I don’t teach a science...
No former GCSE students going on to do medicine? Possibly it’s just a sign of age. Like the “you taught my parent” that I had this year.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
19% of A-level entries are from private schools. One third are on bursaries.
As for Oxbridge, the real issue is they let in so many utter duds (Exhibits A and B - Cummings and Burgon). Admittedly, many of them were privately educated.
Steering clear of detail, can I just ask you this -
(i) Private school use should be encouraged. (ii) Private school use should be discouraged. (iii) Private school use is not a matter for government.
Will help me put your comments on this topic in context.
Private schooling is a scapegoat for a variety of complex societal problems none of which would be markedly different if it was banned or taxed into oblivion. As we may indeed be about to find out, given most of them have shaky finances already and this pandemic is going to kill off many of them.
It is also highly misleading to think of all private schools as conforming to some sort of set pattern. That’s lazy and unhelpful. You have Eton or Wellington who select the wealthiest by ability, and then you have RGS Worcester, with 81% SEND. You have Denstone, with its amazing facilities, and Lichfield Cathedral on a cramped inner city site in several badly maintained medieval houses.
What I do say, quite categorically, is that most private schools are totally unsuitable for being brought into the state sector (their classrooms simply aren’t big enough) but if they were eliminated the pressure on the state sector would massively increase to the extent that in some areas - London or Bristol - it might well implode entirely.
If you really want to eliminate private schools, don’t talk about bans or taxes or structures. Cut the maximum class size in the state sector to 18 and then you would see a huge difference. Moreover, many more private schools probably would follow the lead of Bristol Cathedral or Royal Wolverhampton then and join (or rejoin) the state sector.
OK, thanks. I am in listening mode.
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Must have been the best revision session ever.
I of course didn’t recognise him at all!
ITT?
Initial Teacher Training. Can’t remember what course he was on, PGCE or SCITT or TeachFirst, so I just used ITT.
Germany are going to make 50 million masks a week by August. I fear we will be having discussions by then why in the UK nobody can get a mask.
How long can a mask be used for
Just 2 a day for our population is nearly 1 billion a week if my maths are right
It depends. There are masks designed to be reusable many times, and others which are throwaway. But the idea of everyone wearing masks in public (especially indoors) is more to limit the amount of transmission from anyone infected than protect a given individual wearing a mask. Research suggests that even the simplest masks have some efficacy in this respect.
I do not like masks and of course in China and the the far east they are generally worn because of the pollution.
However if they were mandated for use by the public when out and about the numbers required are huge. I do not know the cost of a mask, but scale that up for the population over weeks and even months and we are talking of a lot of money, so the science needs to be right.
At present the WHO are not recommending the use of masks
The WHO (along with parts of the British government) are just about the last "authoritis", quite ignoring the central idea that masks stop the SPREAD.
I'd have thought reducing infection chance through the nose and mouth via wearing a mask would be more effective than not wearing a mask at all though. Of course it could pop into your eyes but I'd have thought that's less likely than a nasal or oral infection. Wear a mask but act like you don't have one on could be the best advice. People also need to learn not touch their face first - a mask is like the advanced driver's course after the beginner's no face touching one.
Whether masks reduce the chance of you being infected is less important than the fact they very definitely limit your chance of SPREADING the disease, through coughs and sneezes - that's the fundamental point which westerners seem to find very hard to grasp (ie: we ask what will benefit me as an individual, not what will benefit society)
So that guy over there in a mask is doing YOU a favour. You are less likely to catch the bug from him, if he is infected, because his sneeze is muffled. Why not return the favour, and wear a mask, so you are less likely to kill HIM?
Then get everyone to do it, as a favour to everyone else, and bingo we are on the way to being South Korea, not Ecuador.
The flip side is, you touch and fiddle with the mask you've just made wet by coughing into it, as you walk out of the carriage you hold on to one of the grab rails before pressing the button to open the door...
Also the issue of whether you change your behaviour while wearing a mask. Seems pretty likely to me the average Joe will change it in some respects.
There are prima facie benefits to the masks, but I can understand why scientists don't feel happy being drawn about their net effect based on the currently available evidence. And particularly for "home-made masks" which will be of highly variable composition.
Any barrier to coughs and sneezes is better than none at all. No one is coughing into their elbows (what an absurd suggestion that was, tho it shows that barriers work)
So: put a bloody bandana on.
Another positive effect of masks is that they make you conscious of your face and that you should not touch your mouth with your hands. Masks are a constant reminder of that.
This is simplistic - the science is more nuanced - but it is still persuasive
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
In my experience yes, but then it is pretty high in academic posts as well.
When I was a lecturer in the UK, you could spot the private school UCAS applicants a mile off by the way the personal statement was worded. I'm sure they were written by their teachers.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
19% of A-level entries are from private schools. One third are on bursaries.
As for Oxbridge, the real issue is they let in so many utter duds (Exhibits A and B - Cummings and Burgon). Admittedly, many of them were privately educated.
Steering clear of detail, can I just ask you this -
(i) Private school use should be encouraged. (ii) Private school use should be discouraged. (iii) Private school use is not a matter for government.
Will help me put your comments on this topic in context.
Private schooling is a scapegoat for a variety of complex societal problems none of which would be markedly different if it was banned or taxed into oblivion. As we may indeed be about to find out, given most of them have shaky finances already and this pandemic is going to kill off many of them.
It is also highly misleading to think of all private schools as conforming to some sort of set pattern. That’s lazy and unhelpful. You have Eton or Wellington who select the wealthiest by ability, and then you have RGS Worcester, with 81% SEND. You have Denstone, with its amazing facilities, and Lichfield Cathedral on a cramped inner city site in several badly maintained medieval houses.
What I do say, quite categorically, is that most private schools are totally unsuitable for being brought into the state sector (their classrooms simply aren’t big enough) but if they were eliminated the pressure on the state sector would massively increase to the extent that in some areas - London or Bristol - it might well implode entirely.
If you really want to eliminate private schools, don’t talk about bans or taxes or structures. Cut the maximum class size in the state sector to 18 and then you would see a huge difference. Moreover, many more private schools probably would follow the lead of Bristol Cathedral or Royal Wolverhampton then and join (or rejoin) the state sector.
OK, thanks. I am in listening mode.
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
The point is they are all based more or less on a series of false premises, so any answer would not be meaningful (and we’re back to Flew). 3 would be the nearest, but it would be more accurate to say, ‘Private education is a matter better remedied by the government taking action elsewhere to eliminate its key advantage.’
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
She really is a class act and so far in front of the likes of Raab, Hancock and Sunak as to be out of sight.
I do wonder if our politicians think most people wouldn't understand it if it were explained to them - the answer to that is not if it is explained coherently and properly.
Germany are going to make 50 million masks a week by August. I fear we will be having discussions by then why in the UK nobody can get a mask.
How long can a mask be used for
Just 2 a day for our population is nearly 1 billion a week if my maths are right
It depends. There are masks designed to be reusable many times, and others which are throwaway. But the idea of everyone wearing masks in public (especially indoors) is more to limit the amount of transmission from anyone infected than protect a given individual wearing a mask. Research suggests that even the simplest masks have some efficacy in this respect.
I do not like masks and of course in China and the the far east they are generally worn because of the pollution.
However if they were mandated for use by the public when out and about the numbers required are huge. I do not know the cost of a mask, but scale that up for the population over weeks and even months and we are talking of a lot of money, so the science needs to be right.
At present the WHO are not recommending the use of masks
The WHO (along with parts of the British government) are just about the last "authoritis", quite ignoring the central idea that masks stop the SPREAD.
I'd have thought reducing infection chance through the nose and mouth via wearing a mask would be more effective than not wearing a mask at all though. Of course it could pop into your eyes but I'd have thought that's less likely than a nasal or oral infection. Wear a mask but act like you don't have one on could be the best advice. People also need to learn not touch their face first - a mask is like the advanced driver's course after the beginner's no face touching one.
Whether masks reduce the chance of you being infected is less important than the fact they very definitely limit your chance of SPREADING the disease, through coughs and sneezes - that's the fundamental point which westerners seem to find very hard to grasp (ie: we ask what will benefit me as an individual, not what will benefit society)
So that guy over there in a mask is doing YOU a favour. You are less likely to catch the bug from him, if he is infected, because his sneeze is muffled. Why not return the favour, and wear a mask, so you are less likely to kill HIM?
Then get everyone to do it, as a favour to everyone else, and bingo we are on the way to being South Korea, not Ecuador.
The flip side is, you touch and fiddle with the mask you've just made wet by coughing into it, as you walk out of the carriage you hold on to one of the grab rails before pressing the button to open the door...
Also the issue of whether you change your behaviour while wearing a mask. Seems pretty likely to me the average Joe will change it in some respects.
There are prima facie benefits to the masks, but I can understand why scientists don't feel happy being drawn about their net effect based on the currently available evidence. And particularly for "home-made masks" which will be of highly variable composition.
Any barrier to coughs and sneezes is better than none at all. No one is coughing into their elbows (what an absurd suggestion that was, tho it shows that barriers work)
So: put a bloody bandana on.
Another positive effect of masks is that they make you conscious of your face and that you should not touch your mouth with your hands. Masks are a constant reminder of that.
This is simplistic - the science is more nuanced - but it is still persuasive
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
She really is a class act and so far in front of the likes of Raab and Sunak as to be out of sight.
I do wonder if our politicians think most people wouldn't understand it if it were explained to them - the answer to that is not if it is explained coherently and properly.
I wonder if many of our politicians understand it themselves tbh.
Mr. kinabalu, their financial sector is inferior, their handling of the migrant crisis was incredibly stupid, and they increased energy costs massively by Merkel's ridiculous reaction to the Fukushima[sp] meltdown and banning of nuclear power in a country not necessarily renowned for earthquakes and tsunamis.
You can point at any country and find good and bad aspects.
Still, those arguing Germany's magnificent will have fun making the case for banning the niqab and completely changing the way the NHS works.
You supply more supporting evidence -
Their financial sector is VASTLY more fit for purpose and value added. The welcoming of the refugees was an act of great vision and compassion. They got ahead of the curve on nuclear. It's not the future. Banning full face covering is a great example of tolerance without cultural cringe. Their healthcare system knocks the NHS into a cocked one.
And a few more for the pot -
Their education system is tons better. And no silly fetish for privates. The way that top level football is run. Exemplary c.f. our rich man's toy model. They devolve power so much better. They are a true democracy. They make quality things and look after the people who do the work. The approach to housing over there. So much more rational than ours.
One could go on. One has, really.
Deuba...Coba...DKW....WestLB....HVB.... sorry what were you saying about their financial sector...? Did I forget IKB? Or BerlinLB?
Germany are going to make 50 million masks a week by August. I fear we will be having discussions by then why in the UK nobody can get a mask.
How long can a mask be used for
Just 2 a day for our population is nearly 1 billion a week if my maths are right
It depends. There are masks designed to be reusable many times, and others which are throwaway. But the idea of everyone wearing masks in public (especially indoors) is more to limit the amount of transmission from anyone infected than protect a given individual wearing a mask. Research suggests that even the simplest masks have some efficacy in this respect.
I do not like masks and of course in China and the the far east they are generally worn because of the pollution.
However if they were mandated for use by the public when out and about the numbers required are huge. I do not know the cost of a mask, but scale that up for the population over weeks and even months and we are talking of a lot of money, so the science needs to be right.
At present the WHO are not recommending the use of masks
The WHO (along with parts of the British government) are just about the last "authoritis", quite ignoring the central idea that masks stop the SPREAD.
I'd have thought reducing infection chance through the nose and mouth via wearing a mask would be more effective than not wearing a mask at all though. Of course it could pop into your eyes but I'd have thought that's less likely than a nasal or oral infection. Wear a mask but act like you don't have one on could be the best advice. People also need to learn not touch their face first - a mask is like the advanced driver's course after the beginner's no face touching one.
Whether masks reduce the chance of you being infected is less important than the fact they very definitely limit your chance of SPREADING the disease, through coughs and sneezes - that's the fundamental point which westerners seem to find very hard to grasp (ie: we ask what will benefit me as an individual, not what will benefit society)
So that guy over there in a mask is doing YOU a favour. You are less likely to catch the bug from him, if he is infected, because his sneeze is muffled. Why not return the favour, and wear a mask, so you are less likely to kill HIM?
Then get everyone to do it, as a favour to everyone else, and bingo we are on the way to being South Korea, not Ecuador.
The flip side is, you touch and fiddle with the mask you've just made wet by coughing into it, as you walk out of the carriage you hold on to one of the grab rails before pressing the button to open the door...
Also the issue of whether you change your behaviour while wearing a mask. Seems pretty likely to me the average Joe will change it in some respects.
There are prima facie benefits to the masks, but I can understand why scientists don't feel happy being drawn about their net effect based on the currently available evidence. And particularly for "home-made masks" which will be of highly variable composition.
Any barrier to coughs and sneezes is better than none at all. No one is coughing into their elbows (what an absurd suggestion that was, tho it shows that barriers work)
So: put a bloody bandana on.
Another positive effect of masks is that they make you conscious of your face and that you should not touch your mouth with your hands. Masks are a constant reminder of that.
This is simplistic - the science is more nuanced - but it is still persuasive
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better. It will be like playing pool after hours of snooker. You can't miss.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better. It will be like playing pool after hours of snooker. You can't miss.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
Italy doesn’t count care home deaths . France does so the 761 includes that . France recorded 418 hospital deaths today and similar to yesterday .
If the UK included care home deaths in its daily bulletin I suspect the public would be shocked .
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
Indeed. My mum was appalled to find out a lot of kids at Godalming sixth form college had been at RGS Guildford until the age of 16. Interestingly a colleague of mine told me that it was the opposite where she grew up. So poor were the sixth form college options where she was, a lot kids went private 17-18.
I used to teach in that same area for over a decade. That’s exactly what happened, some for gender mixing reasons, some financial but a lot believed that it gave them a better chance of getting into the best universities by ‘going state’.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
If twice that percentage are at private schools then that seems very harsh.
Yes. It would have to be phased in over a lengthy period. Give people time to react and plan. Unconscionable "politics of envy" otherwise. I'd march against it.
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
Is she still planning to step down later this year?
I hope not . What a wonderful woman . She made the wrong decision with the refugee crisis but for the right reasons . For having some humanity and compassion she’s streets ahead of many other leaders .
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
Is she still planning to step down later this year?
Next year.
Well to be exact Merkel Stepped down as CDU leader in 2018, but obviosly she is stll Chancellor. The CDU are making such a pigs ear of finding a suitable Chancellor Candidate that maybe she will be forced to carry on!
There is no exit strategy and nor should there be right now. There is no path because no one knows what the path is, no one, its all shooting in the dark. Its all opinion and some scientists will have a good campaign here and others will not.
The case curve which being frank is more important than the death curve isn't where it needs to be, peaks remain peaks for weeks. We need the cases to carry on just at a manageable rate
Secondly, let continental Europe be the lab for week or two and learn.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
Indeed. My mum was appalled to find out a lot of kids at Godalming sixth form college had been at RGS Guildford until the age of 16. Interestingly a colleague of mine told me that it was the opposite where she grew up. So poor were the sixth form college options where she was, a lot kids went private 17-18.
I used to teach in that same area for over a decade. That’s exactly what happened, some for gender mixing reasons, some financial but a lot believed that it gave them a better chance of getting into the best universities by ‘going state’.
Interesting, I always thought it was just to save a few quid!
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better.
And how would you know that, as an accountant? Yes, I hear this a lot, but I travel widely in education and I see no evidence of it. There are very good teachers in private schools and shockingly bad ones in state schools. Similarly, I have seen shockingly bad ones in private schools and outstanding ones in state schools. It’s just a form of inverse snobbery.
I would agree he will walk into one if he wants it, but not because of that. It’s because he’s a physics teacher and they’re rarer than costed policies in a Labour manifesto.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
Indeed. My mum was appalled to find out a lot of kids at Godalming sixth form college had been at RGS Guildford until the age of 16. Interestingly a colleague of mine told me that it was the opposite where she grew up. So poor were the sixth form college options where she was, a lot kids went private 17-18.
Perhaps quotas for state school places at Russell Group are causing people to switch from private to state in the 6th form?
This PPE shit could really start to hurt the government soon.
People understand that this virus is unprecedented, they know the govt is learning on the job, but a failure to provide basic things like gowns and masks is just inept.
They've had months now.
I reckon I could have run the country better since early Feb, in between hangovers. I would have made sure we had enuff bloody masks.
We have loads of masks, aprons, gloves. It is the long sleeved protective gowns that are like gold dust at present
Is it safe to work in ICU with masks but no long sleeved protective gowns?
Are the alternatives suggested by the Govt as safe and in plentiful supply?
It has not yet been a problem in our ICUs in Leicester.
On masks the advice is variable at present and we are entirely in line with WTO recommendations
Masks must be available in medical locations and high risk areas
It is under review
And that is the view I support
At the very least, we need to be planning to be able to mass produce them. We can't get caught out like PPE, where the big UK company has their Chinese plant seized or the testing where we were too slow to put call out to the private sector.
I’m sure we are.
I don’t know about PPE, but in pharma the machinery is custom made and there is a 6-9 month minimum lead time
Hmm, I have to say this feels a lot like the evening we all found out about the dementia tax in 2017. The government has had a lot of public support until now because we're learning and doing at the same time. However, we've known about the looming shortage of PPE for around two months. The government is no longer going to get that leeway on this.
I expect support for the government on virus handling will fall away quite rapidly if the situation isn't resolved by Monday. The first nurse who dies because they didn't have PPE is going to be on the front page of The Sun and the government will have no answer. The reason they won't have an answer is because there was a very well publicised procurement and manufacturing programme for ventilators which has proven highly successful. The question that has no answer is why wasn't that same programme rolled out for PPE which we knew would face the same level of international shortages.
I hope Boris gets better very soon and sacks every single person involved with this PPE procurement failure. Hancock first, the guy is a walking disaster, buying back Hunt.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
Jesus, do you have any policies where the answer is to improve, rather than drag everyone down to about the same level?
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better.
And how would you know that, as an accountant? Yes, I hear this a lot, but I travel widely in education and I see no evidence of it. There are very good teachers in private schools and shockingly bad ones in state schools. Similarly, I have seen shockingly bad ones in private schools and outstanding ones in state schools. It’s just a form of inverse snobbery.
I would agree he will walk into one if he wants it, but not because of that. It’s because he’s a physics teacher and they’re rarer than costed policies in a Labour manifesto.
I'm not really an accountant. That is dim distant past. Half my (extended) family are teachers and I have known many others as friends. State and private. My sister is Head of one of the most prestigious private schools in the country. My sister in law teaches in a rough and tumbly comp. They both agree with me on this point. You don't. Shrugs.
I am aware of your obsession over masks but I am not convinced that widescale use of masks will make the difference you maintain
In confined spaces and of course medical locations it may well have a benefit but it is not the silver bullet you think it is.
A sneeze velocity is 70mph and masks do not 100% stop the spread and of course most people touch their face and masks multiple times negating their effectiveness
This is a percentage game, so it doesn't have to be a silver bullet in order to be effective in meaningfully reducing transmission.
There is no exit strategy and nor should there be right now. There is no path because no one knows what the path is, no one, its all shooting in the dark. Its all opinion and some scientists will have a good campaign here and others will not.
The case curve which being frank is more important than the death curve isn't where it needs to be, peaks remain peaks for weeks. We need the cases to carry on just at a manageable rate
Secondly, let continental Europe be the lab for week or two and learn.
Merkel's explanation of how difficult it's going to be to get R below one confirms we may be looking at an extended period of plateau in terms of new cases and deaths.
I'm puzzled - Newham has 834 confirmed cases which is those who both have had and still have the virus. The Borough's population is just over 350,000 so it's a very small number.
I'm well aware that is the tip of the iceberg (which isn't a bad anomaly) but do we think there are 10x or 20x more cases which have gone unreported primarily (I imagine) because the symptoms are mild - take the latter factor and that means just under 17,000 cases in Newham which would mean just under 5% of the population have or have had the virus which is quite a difference.
Extrapolate that across the country and 3.25 million have had or have the virus so perhaps it's not a factor of 20 but perhaps a factor of 10 but does anyone know?
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better. It will be like playing pool after hours of snooker. You can't miss.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
I’m surprised you thought that was on the fence.
I asked whether you thought private school were a good thing or a bad thing. You said they were a good thing because you might want a job at one. That was NOT the spirit of the question.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
mostly the latter - but now you mention it, at least three of my old barstaff have moved on to surgery as part of their careers.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
19% of A-level entries are from private schools. One third are on bursaries.
As for Oxbridge, the real issue is they let in so many utter duds (Exhibits A and B - Cummings and Burgon). Admittedly, many of them were privately educated.
Steering clear of detail, can I just ask you this -
(i) Private school use should be encouraged. (ii) Private school use should be discouraged. (iii) Private school use is not a matter for government.
Will help me put your comments on this topic in context.
Private schooling is a scapegoat for a variety of complex societal problems none of which would be markedly different if it was banned or taxed into oblivion. As we may indeed be about to find out, given most of them have shaky finances already and this pandemic is going to kill off many of them.
It is also highly misleading to think of all private schools as conforming to some sort of set pattern. That’s lazy and unhelpful. You have Eton or Wellington who select the wealthiest by ability, and then you have RGS Worcester, with 81% SEND. You have Denstone, with its amazing facilities, and Lichfield Cathedral on a cramped inner city site in several badly maintained medieval houses.
What I do say, quite categorically, is that most private schools are totally unsuitable for being brought into the state sector (their classrooms simply aren’t big enough) but if they were eliminated the pressure on the state sector would massively increase to the extent that in some areas - London or Bristol - it might well implode entirely.
If you really want to eliminate private schools, don’t talk about bans or taxes or structures. Cut the maximum class size in the state sector to 18 and then you would see a huge difference. Moreover, many more private schools probably would follow the lead of Bristol Cathedral or Royal Wolverhampton then and join (or rejoin) the state sector.
OK, thanks. I am in listening mode.
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
The point is they are all based more or less on a series of false premises, so any answer would not be meaningful (and we’re back to Flew). 3 would be the nearest, but it would be more accurate to say, ‘Private education is a matter better remedied by the government taking action elsewhere to eliminate its key advantage.’
Germany are going to make 50 million masks a week by August. I fear we will be having discussions by then why in the UK nobody can get a mask.
How long can a mask be used for
Just 2 a day for our population is nearly 1 billion a week if my maths are right
It depends. There are masks designed to be reusable many times, and others which are throwaway. But the idea of everyone wearing masks in public (especially indoors) is more to limit the amount of transmission from anyone infected than protect a given individual wearing a mask. Research suggests that even the simplest masks have some efficacy in this respect.
I do not like masks and of course in China and the the far east they are generally worn because of the pollution.
However if they were mandated for use by the public when out and about the numbers required are huge. I do not know the cost of a mask, but scale that up for the population over weeks and even months and we are talking of a lot of money, so the science needs to be right.
At present the WHO are not recommending the use of masks
The WHO (along with parts of the British government) are just about the last "authoritis", quite ignoring the central idea that masks stop the SPREAD.
I'd have thought reducing infection chance through the nose and mouth via wearing a mask would be more effective than not wearing a mask at all though. Of course it could pop into your eyes but I'd have thought that's less likely than a nasal or oral infection. Wear a mask but act like you don't have one on could be the best advice. People also need to learn not touch their face first - a mask is like the advanced driver's course after the beginner's no face touching one.
Whether masks reduce the chance of you being infected is less important than the fact they very definitely limit your chance of SPREADING the disease, through coughs and sneezes - that's the fundamental point which westerners seem to find very hard to grasp (ie: we ask what will benefit me as an individual, not what will benefit society)
So that guy over there in a mask is doing YOU a favour. You are less likely to catch the bug from him, if he is infected, because his sneeze is muffled. Why not return the favour, and wear a mask, so you are less likely to kill HIM?
Then get everyone to do it, as a favour to everyone else, and bingo we are on the way to being South Korea, not Ecuador.
The flip side is, you touch and fiddle with the mask you've just made wet by coughing into it, as you walk out of the carriage you hold on to one of the grab rails before pressing the button to open the door...
Also the issue of whether you change your behaviour while wearing a mask. Seems pretty likely to me the average Joe will change it in some respects.
There are prima facie benefits to the masks, but I can understand why scientists don't feel happy being drawn about their net effect based on the currently available evidence. And particularly for "home-made masks" which will be of highly variable composition.
Any barrier to coughs and sneezes is better than none at all. No one is coughing into their elbows (what an absurd suggestion that was, tho it shows that barriers work)
So: put a bloody bandana on.
Another positive effect of masks is that they make you conscious of your face and that you should not touch your mouth with your hands. Masks are a constant reminder of that.
This is simplistic - the science is more nuanced - but it is still persuasive
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better. It will be like playing pool after hours of snooker. You can't miss.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
I’m surprised you thought that was on the fence.
I asked whether you thought private school were a good thing or a bad thing. You said they were a good thing because you might want a job at one. That was NOT the spirit of the question.
Unless you go to a very selective grammar school or a few very outstanding comprehensive schools or a sixth form college if you want to teach your subject more than focus on crowd control though private schools are a better option
There is no exit strategy and nor should there be right now. There is no path because no one knows what the path is, no one, its all shooting in the dark. Its all opinion and some scientists will have a good campaign here and others will not.
The case curve which being frank is more important than the death curve isn't where it needs to be, peaks remain peaks for weeks. We need the cases to carry on just at a manageable rate
Secondly, let continental Europe be the lab for week or two and learn.
Merkel's explanation of how difficult it's going to be to get R below one confirms we may be looking at an extended period of plateau in terms of new cases and deaths.
I'm puzzled - Newham has 834 confirmed cases which is those who both have had and still have the virus. The Borough's population is just over 350,000 so it's a very small number.
I'm well aware that is the tip of the iceberg (which isn't a bad anomaly) but do we think there are 10x or 20x more cases which have gone unreported primarily (I imagine) because the symptoms are mild - take the latter factor and that means just under 17,000 cases in Newham which would mean just under 5% of the population have or have had the virus which is quite a difference.
Extrapolate that across the country and 3.25 million have had or have the virus so perhaps it's not a factor of 20 but perhaps a factor of 10 but does anyone know?
I don't think we do. Figures (see the Stanford works below as an example) vary so widely. I've seen estimations of as little as 3% of the general population according to one wonk right through to a Dutch study based on the testing the water system in one cluster area reckoned on, I think, c30% of the population in that area, way way above confirmed cases.
The margin of error is so broad. A lot of people from top to bottom in public health would l suspect be delighted to be able to hang their hats on infections running at 20 times confirmed cases, because then we'd be getting somewhere.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
19% of A-level entries are from private schools. One third are on bursaries.
As for Oxbridge, the real issue is they let in so many utter duds (Exhibits A and B - Cummings and Burgon). Admittedly, many of them were privately educated.
Steering clear of detail, can I just ask you this -
(i) Private school use should be encouraged. (ii) Private school use should be discouraged. (iii) Private school use is not a matter for government.
Will help me put your comments on this topic in context.
Private schooling is a scapegoat for a variety of complex societal problems none of which would be markedly different if it was banned or taxed into oblivion. As we may indeed be about to find out, given most of them have shaky finances already and this pandemic is going to kill off many of them.
It is also highly misleading to think of all private schools as conforming to some sort of set pattern. That’s lazy and unhelpful. You have Eton or Wellington who select the wealthiest by ability, and then you have RGS Worcester, with 81% SEND. You have Denstone, with its amazing facilities, and Lichfield Cathedral on a cramped inner city site in several badly maintained medieval houses.
What I do say, quite categorically, is that most private schools are totally unsuitable for being brought into the state sector (their classrooms simply aren’t big enough) but if they were eliminated the pressure on the state sector would massively increase to the extent that in some areas - London or Bristol - it might well implode entirely.
If you really want to eliminate private schools, don’t talk about bans or taxes or structures. Cut the maximum class size in the state sector to 18 and then you would see a huge difference. Moreover, many more private schools probably would follow the lead of Bristol Cathedral or Royal Wolverhampton then and join (or rejoin) the state sector.
OK, thanks. I am in listening mode.
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
The point is they are all based more or less on a series of false premises, so any answer would not be meaningful (and we’re back to Flew). 3 would be the nearest, but it would be more accurate to say, ‘Private education is a matter better remedied by the government taking action elsewhere to eliminate its key advantage.’
Bingo. That's a (ii).
We are agreed on the need to skin the cat.
Just a matter of how best to do it.
No. It is not a 2. It is a statement that they exist because of failings in the state system, and if you want to get rid of them it would be better to address those failings rather than to take punitive action out of personal and bluntly, ill-informed prejudice, family members notwithstanding. That is nearer to a 3 than anything else, but again, your questions are not in a Flovian sense meaningful because you do not have an understanding of the basic premises.
But unfortunately one of the weaknesses of Labour and indeed the radical left more widely is that while they have always known what they are against they very seldom have a positive vision of what they are actually for.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better. It will be like playing pool after hours of snooker. You can't miss.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
I’m surprised you thought that was on the fence.
I asked whether you thought private school were a good thing or a bad thing. You said they were a good thing because you might want a job at one. That was NOT the spirit of the question.
Unless you go to a very selective grammar school or a few very outstanding comprehensive schools or a sixth form college if you want to teach your subject more than focus on crowd control though private schools are a better option
Not necessarily. There are some very thick kids in private schools.
Large sixth form colleges are often brilliant. And underfunded.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
19% of A-level entries are from private schools. One third are on bursaries.
As for Oxbridge, the real issue is they let in so many utter duds (Exhibits A and B - Cummings and Burgon). Admittedly, many of them were privately educated.
Steering clear of detail, can I just ask you this -
(i) Private school use should be encouraged. (ii) Private school use should be discouraged. (iii) Private school use is not a matter for government.
Will help me put your comments on this topic in context.
Private schooling is a scapegoat for a variety of complex societal problems none of which would be markedly different if it was banned or taxed into oblivion. As we may indeed be about to find out, given most of them have shaky finances already and this pandemic is going to kill off many of them.
It is also highly misleading to think of all private schools as conforming to some sort of set pattern. That’s lazy and unhelpful. You have Eton or Wellington who select the wealthiest by ability, and then you have RGS Worcester, with 81% SEND. You have Denstone, with its amazing facilities, and Lichfield Cathedral on a cramped inner city site in several badly maintained medieval houses.
What I do say, quite categorically, is that most private schools are totally unsuitable for being brought into the state sector (their classrooms simply aren’t big enough) but if they were eliminated the pressure on the state sector would massively increase to the extent that in some areas - London or Bristol - it might well implode entirely.
If you really want to eliminate private schools, don’t talk about bans or taxes or structures. Cut the maximum class size in the state sector to 18 and then you would see a huge difference. Moreover, many more private schools probably would follow the lead of Bristol Cathedral or Royal Wolverhampton then and join (or rejoin) the state sector.
OK, thanks. I am in listening mode.
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
The point is they are all based more or less on a series of false premises, so any answer would not be meaningful (and we’re back to Flew). 3 would be the nearest, but it would be more accurate to say, ‘Private education is a matter better remedied by the government taking action elsewhere to eliminate its key advantage.’
Bingo. That's a (ii).
We are agreed on the need to skin the cat.
Just a matter of how best to do it.
No. It is not a 2. It is a statement that they exist because of failings in the state system, and if you want to get rid of them it would be better to address those failings rather than to take punitive action out of personal and bluntly, ill-informed prejudice, family members notwithstanding. That is nearer to a 3 than anything else, but again, your questions are not in a Flovian sense meaningful because you do not have an understanding of the basic premises.
But unfortunately one of the weaknesses of Labour and indeed the radical left more widely is that while they have always known what they are against they very seldom have a positive vision of what they are actually for.
“Specifically, they estimate that between 2.5% and 4.2% of people in Santa Clara County may have antibodies. (The range is a result of different models used to extrapolate the test results to a representative population.)”
Given that we already expect between 3-5% (as per Whitty or Vallance, I forget which), this is just in line with expectations. In hotspots they have found more like 15% but they had massive community transmission.
Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.
The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.
Every child will be educated brilliantly.
Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.
Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.
“Specifically, they estimate that between 2.5% and 4.2% of people in Santa Clara County may have antibodies. (The range is a result of different models used to extrapolate the test results to a representative population.)”
Given that we already expect between 3-5% (as per Whitty or Vallance, I forget which), this is just in line with expectations. In hotspots they have found more like 15% but they had massive community transmission.
Which is, more or less, in line with results from Europe and China.
The discussion pre thread on Spain's shedload of new cases is very timely.
The same could be said - I said it two weeks ago - of Italy's new cases.
These countries are many weeks into lockdown. Where and how are they getting infected? Are they key workers, is it happening in households, care homes, hospitals?
It shouldn't be hard to find out: ask them what they've been doing the last 2-3 weeks.
Armed with that info we could start relaxing the lockdown with the right precautions, or giving PPE to those key workers, maybe even divide households. Or just abandon lockdowns a la Suedois
Oh, and, of course, we should all be wearing masks FFS, as even the British government is now slowly admitting.
People keep saying lockdowns work, but the evidence of Spain and Italy is not really showing that. It remains a mystery to me how so many people are getting infected so far into a lockdown.
We don't have the counterfactual Spain and Italy where they didn't do the lockdown though, do we?
Absolutely not, so thats why is so hard to judge if the lockdowns are working. Two weeks ago there was talk of Italys figures dropping off a cliff by now, but that has not happened. I thought they would of, and I can't find a reason as why they have not. I realise that this is a very odd virus but it surely must need human to human contact to infect. If it does how on earth are the Italian and Spainish new infections so high?
Um - the exponential growth of cases and deaths has certainly stopped. Otherwise both would be way past 100,000 deaths and still accelerating.
Given that healthcare workers are still getting exposed, key workers are still interacting, and households are not isolating every member away from each other, and people are still buying food, it’s stunningly easy to understand why an infectivity rate of only a little under 1 is still possible in lockdown.
You seem to be imagining that “lockdown” means everyone sitting in solitary confinement, unmoving for weeks on end. Do you really think that?
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Then let’s start with that statistic. At any one time 7% of students “ go private“. The total number of students who are educated privately at some point is more like twice that, particularly by the time you get to sixth form.
According to Mumsnet 16% of 6th formers are at private schools.
Where do you stand on this one generally?
Do you think they are (net net) a good thing or a bad thing?
My view is coloured by the fact that if I ever leave my current job in a state school I want to be able to get a job in a fee paying one...
You'll walk into one. State school teachers are better. It will be like playing pool after hours of snooker. You can't miss.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
I’m surprised you thought that was on the fence.
I asked whether you thought private school were a good thing or a bad thing. You said they were a good thing because you might want a job at one. That was NOT the spirit of the question.
Unless you go to a very selective grammar school or a few very outstanding comprehensive schools or a sixth form college if you want to teach your subject more than focus on crowd control though private schools are a better option
Not necessarily. There are some very thick kids in private schools.
Large sixth form colleges are often brilliant. And underfunded.
Depends what private schools, though I admit teaching at Winchester or Eton will probably be more academic than at Stowe say.
On average though the comment holds, plus parental pressure tends to be higher at private schools to get good grades
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
19% of A-level entries are from private schools. One third are on bursaries.
As for Oxbridge, the real issue is they let in so many utter duds (Exhibits A and B - Cummings and Burgon). Admittedly, many of them were privately educated.
Steering clear of detail, can I just ask you this -
(i) Private school use should be encouraged. (ii) Private school use should be discouraged. (iii) Private school use is not a matter for government.
Will help me put your comments on this topic in context.
Private schooling is a scapegoat for a variety of complex societal problems none of which would be markedly different if it was banned or taxed into oblivion. As we may indeed be about to find out, given most of them have shaky finances already and this pandemic is going to kill off many of them.
It is also highly misleading to think of all private schools as conforming to some sort of set pattern. That’s lazy and unhelpful. You have Eton or Wellington who select the wealthiest by ability, and then you have RGS Worcester, with 81% SEND. You have Denstone, with its amazing facilities, and Lichfield Cathedral on a cramped inner city site in several badly maintained medieval houses.
What I do say, quite categorically, is that most private schools are totally unsuitable for being brought into the state sector (their classrooms simply aren’t big enough) but if they were eliminated the pressure on the state sector would massively increase to the extent that in some areas - London or Bristol - it might well implode entirely.
If you really want to eliminate private schools, don’t talk about bans or taxes or structures. Cut the maximum class size in the state sector to 18 and then you would see a huge difference. Moreover, many more private schools probably would follow the lead of Bristol Cathedral or Royal Wolverhampton then and join (or rejoin) the state sector.
OK, thanks. I am in listening mode.
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
The point is they are all based more or less on a series of false premises, so any answer would not be meaningful (and we’re back to Flew). 3 would be the nearest, but it would be more accurate to say, ‘Private education is a matter better remedied by the government taking action elsewhere to eliminate its key advantage.’
Bingo. That's a (ii).
We are agreed on the need to skin the cat.
Just a matter of how best to do it.
No. It is not a 2. It is a statement that they exist because of failings in the state system, and if you want to get rid of them it would be better to address those failings rather than to take punitive action out of personal and bluntly, ill-informed prejudice, family members notwithstanding. That is nearer to a 3 than anything else, but again, your questions are not in a Flovian sense meaningful because you do not have an understanding of the basic premises.
But unfortunately one of the weaknesses of Labour and indeed the radical left more widely is that while they have always known what they are against they very seldom have a positive vision of what they are actually for.
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
Italy doesn’t count care home deaths . France does so the 761 includes that . France recorded 418 hospital deaths today and similar to yesterday .
If the UK included care home deaths in its daily bulletin I suspect the public would be shocked .
Not sure that’s true. I reckon every Western country is under counting.
I read today that Spain was probably only reporting a third of its real death toll. So many are dying at homes, hospices etc
So you might have to multiply Spain’s death toll by 3 to get the real stat.
Which also means these claims ‘the UK will have the worst death toll’ are just bollocks. No one knows. We are fighting in the thick fog of war.
Since you dialled back the hyperbole, you’ve been very sensible.
On masks the advice is variable at present and we are entirely in line with WTO recommendations
Masks must be available in medical locations and high risk areas
It is under review
And that is the view I support
At the very least, we need to be planning to be able to mass produce them. We can't get caught out like PPE, where the big UK company has their Chinese plant seized or the testing where we were too slow to put call out to the private sector.
I’m sure we are.
I don’t know about PPE, but in pharma the machinery is custom made and there is a 6-9 month minimum lead time
O/T, but thanks for your reading suggestions last night @Charles - much appreciated!
And I agree with @Cyclefree, the Times obituary of your father was equal parts fascinating and heart-warming.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
It certainly does, but three As at A level tends to favour private schools, and there is a strong vocational element in Medicine, so a lot of medical parents with kids at private schools.
In Leicester we have an interesting system where for some years we have evaluated our multiple interviews (we do 8 short ones), A levels and other features against performance through the course, and use this feedback to help choose the best applicants.
We no longer look at personal statements, prefer post A level applications, and introduced some new stations. All of these predicted course performance better, and we also only offer hospital experience attachments to private pupils after the state schools have had first pick.
It surprises me how few university courses do this review of applications for feedback on performance.
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
I think it's a feature of lockdown, not the bug. Left to its own devices, the epidemic would see a terrifying spike of death. With lockdown you aim to get to below R=1. Going a lot lower than that it's difficult.
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
Mr. kinabalu, their financial sector is inferior, their handling of the migrant crisis was incredibly stupid, and they increased energy costs massively by Merkel's ridiculous reaction to the Fukushima[sp] meltdown and banning of nuclear power in a country not necessarily renowned for earthquakes and tsunamis.
You can point at any country and find good and bad aspects.
Still, those arguing Germany's magnificent will have fun making the case for banning the niqab and completely changing the way the NHS works.
You supply more supporting evidence -
Their financial sector is VASTLY more fit for purpose and value added. The welcoming of the refugees was an act of great vision and compassion. They got ahead of the curve on nuclear. It's not the future. Banning full face covering is a great example of tolerance without cultural cringe. Their healthcare system knocks the NHS into a cocked one.
And a few more for the pot -
Their education system is tons better. And no silly fetish for privates. The way that top level football is run. Exemplary c.f. our rich man's toy model. They devolve power so much better. They are a true democracy. They make quality things and look after the people who do the work. The approach to housing over there. So much more rational than ours.
One could go on. One has, really.
Deuba...Coba...DKW....WestLB....HVB.... sorry what were you saying about their financial sector...? Did I forget IKB? Or BerlinLB?
Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.
The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.
Every child will be educated brilliantly.
Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.
Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
We no longer look at personal statements, prefer post A level applications
I can’t help but feel those two, particularly the second, would be far better for social mobility than just about any campaign against private schools if they were rolled out for every course and uni.
But leaving universities with a blank year is something they are never going to agree to.
Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.
The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.
Every child will be educated brilliantly.
Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.
Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.
I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.
Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.
A bit like Michael Gove.
I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.
I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
mostly the latter - but now you mention it, at least three of my old barstaff have moved on to surgery as part of their careers.
Great point, fella!
I did a lot of bar work as a student. Easy money and quite sociable in the Med School bar. I have also been treated by former students, though have picked my students carefully!
Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.
The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.
Every child will be educated brilliantly.
Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.
Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.
I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.
Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.
A bit like Michael Gove.
I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.
I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.
(So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
We no longer look at personal statements, prefer post A level applications
I can’t help but feel those two, particularly the second, would be far better for social mobility than just about any campaign against private schools if they were rolled out for every course and uni.
But leaving universities with a blank year is something they are never going to agree to.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Must have been the best revision session ever.
I of course didn’t recognise him at all!
There is a fascinating imbalance to the teacher's job, isn't there. You are an important figure in the lives of countless people who to you are nothing. Not that you don't care, of course you do, just that they are so many and you are just you. There must be thousands out there who remember you to this day. They can picture you, hear your voice, they know your name. And you are oblivious.
"Coronavirus can survive exposure to temperatures of up to 140°F (60°C) for relatively long periods of time, a study has demonstrated.
The finding suggests that standard measures used for disinfection in research labs — heating to such a temperature for an hour — are ineffective against COVID-19.
Instead, to kill the pathogen, researchers found that they had to maintain temperatures of 198°F (92°C) for a quarter of an hour."
(D Mail)
"Well, it's an interesting combination of elements making him a... tough little son-of-a-bitch."
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
We no longer look at personal statements, prefer post A level applications
I can’t help but feel those two, particularly the second, would be far better for social mobility than just about any campaign against private schools if they were rolled out for every course and uni.
But leaving universities with a blank year is something they are never going to agree to.
We take a mix of pre and post A level students, and graduate students too.
Our scoring algorithm simply gives more points for an actual A level over a predicted one*. We also find that some time working in the care sector brings extra maturity to the students. They are better on our acting stations with simulated patients.
*private schools over egg their predictions compared to state schools which tend to underestimate their brightest. This is one way to level the playing field without ruling out exceptional 6 th formers.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Must have been the best revision session ever.
I of course didn’t recognise him at all!
There is a fascinating imbalance to the teacher's job, isn't there. You are an important figure in the lives of countless people who to you are nothing.
And there, instantly - and not with an edit to rip it out of context - is why people who have never taught do not understand education. Nobody you teach for any length of time is ever ‘nothing’ to a teacher. The difficulty here is I only taught him once. If he had been one of the Year 11 class I taught for five months, I would have known him alright.
*private schools over egg their predictions compared to state schools which tend to underestimate their brightest. This is one way to level the playing field without ruling out exceptional 6 th formers.
Which is one of the many reasons why this year’s system is so fucking idiotic.
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Must have been the best revision session ever.
I of course didn’t recognise him at all!
There is a fascinating imbalance to the teacher's job, isn't there. You are an important figure in the lives of countless people who to you are nothing. Not that you don't care, of course you do, just that they are so many and you are just you. There must be thousands out there who remember you to this day. They can picture you, hear your voice, they know your name. And you are oblivious.
It’s difficult when one of them talks to you years later in some unexpected location and you don’t immediately recognise them. Usually I can jog my memory with the right questions. ‘Who are you still in touch with from your group?’ always elicits valuable information! I can remember them all, pretty much, just not immediately (and, of course, they have changed out of all recognition whereas you haven’t).
Everyone saying 8 April was peak but that's potentially highly misleading - date of death 15 April has the 2nd highest number of deaths reported within two days.
It's arguable 8 April was a slight outlier on the upside and that broad picture is of a plateau with no significant move downwards at all.
Yes, it looks like this is a peak like Table Mountain rather than Mont Blanc.
Not entirely dissimilar to Italy, which has been hovering around 500 deaths a day since April; 6. Today they had 525
France is also slow to decline. Another 761 deaths today.
This seems to be a feature of the bug.
Italy doesn’t count care home deaths . France does so the 761 includes that . France recorded 418 hospital deaths today and similar to yesterday .
If the UK included care home deaths in its daily bulletin I suspect the public would be shocked .
Not sure that’s true. I reckon every Western country is under counting.
I read today that Spain was probably only reporting a third of its real death toll. So many are dying at homes, hospices etc
So you might have to multiply Spain’s death toll by 3 to get the real stat.
Which also means these claims ‘the UK will have the worst death toll’ are just bollocks. No one knows. We are fighting in the thick fog of war.
Critics of our govt will almost certainly include care homes deaths in our figures, but won’t in other countries leading to the confirmation bias conclusion that we are the worst
Have you ever come across the No True Scotsman fallacy?
Yes. Nice one. But I'm not anti private schools in principle, I'm anti our ones. The way WE have things arranged. However after yesterday people have heard enough from me on this topic until at least Sunday.
It seems to me that you’re more anti a caricature of private schools based on a few particular examples. If I match what you say about private schools to the ones in Staffordshire, the only one I recognise is Denstone and possibly Abbotsholme (which is a business so probably doesn’t come under your particular pet hate). Lichfield, St Dominic's Brewood, Chase Academy Cannock, Stafford Grammar, Newcastle under Lyme all operate in much the same way you describe German private schools, with this crucial difference - they take no money from the state.
You're getting bogged down.
7% of kids go private. Almost half of Oxbridge places go to them.
Oxbridge supplies our elite.
We start there.
Did you know the civil service now bans applicants from stating their alma mater?
I didn't. First instinct, I like it. I also like the idea that top tier unis should limit private school places to 10%. That would be an exocet to the sector, I think.
It is fairly easy to spot the privately educated applicants when I am doing the Medical School interviews. It is usually obvious from the extracurricular activities etc.
Yes, I suppose that is a bit of a flaw here. Still what can you do. You can't dispense with interviews, I don't suppose.
Does medicine have a pronounced over-representation from the privately educated, would you say?
Slightly off topic for this thread, but have any of the other teachers on here been in hospital for an operation and been greeted with “ hello sir, you probably don’t remember me but...” from a former pupil?
almost.
barstaff.
You had an operation from a former barkeeper?! Or one of your former pupils served you a drink?
The nearest I’ve ever come to that is when an ITT at Bristol recognised me from a single lesson I had given him six years before.
Must have been the best revision session ever.
I of course didn’t recognise him at all!
There is a fascinating imbalance to the teacher's job, isn't there. You are an important figure in the lives of countless people who to you are nothing. Not that you don't care, of course you do, just that they are so many and you are just you. There must be thousands out there who remember you to this day. They can picture you, hear your voice, they know your name. And you are oblivious.
That is the experience of a profession. Whether teacher, priest, lawyer or physician, your contact with a person can change their life, for better or worse. It tends to be a memorable experience too.
Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.
The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.
Every child will be educated brilliantly.
Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.
Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.
I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.
Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.
A bit like Michael Gove.
I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.
I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.
(So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into. Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
*private schools over egg their predictions compared to state schools which tend to underestimate their brightest. This is one way to level the playing field without ruling out exceptional 6 th formers.
Which is one of the many reasons why this year’s system is so fucking idiotic.
I agree, though am not sure what the alternative is.
According to the Sutton trust state school teachers are more likely to have BEd degrees but independent school teachers more likely to have MScs and PhDs and postgraduate qualifications in the subjects they teach.
*private schools over egg their predictions compared to state schools which tend to underestimate their brightest. This is one way to level the playing field without ruling out exceptional 6 th formers.
Which is one of the many reasons why this year’s system is so fucking idiotic.
I agree, though am not sure what the alternative is.
They could - and should - have told us to send actual evidence. A return to coursework, in effect. And then got it marked or at least checked.
But we’ve been ordered not even to send coursework. We were told not to ask for it to be finished. But apparently we have to take it in and mark it in case any of them want to resit! (Both of those come from OFQUAL.)
Comments
The grown-up politician explains this in her press conference.
https://twitter.com/BenjAlvarez1/status/1250563198081740800
But of course, I don’t teach a science...
barstaff.
I hear you re civil service. But most lucrative prestige jobs just involve writing emails and going to meetings. Sometimes a bit of telephone.
Fluid repellent hospital gowns or coveralls are indicated for use for the care of patients in high risk areas, where aerosol generating procedures (AGPs) are being performed.
There are 3 main options that can be considered as alternatives if gowns are not available:
Reserve disposable, fluid repellent gown or coveralls for AGPs and surgical procedures.
Disposable, non-fluid repellent gowns or coveralls with a disposable plastic apron for high-risk settings and AGPs with forearm washing once gown or coverall is removed.
Reusable (washable) surgical gowns or coveralls or similar suitable clothing (for example, long-sleeved laboratory coat, long-sleeved patient gown or industrial coverall) with a disposable plastic apron for AGPs and high-risk settings with forearm washing once gown or coverall is removed. These would need to be washed in a hospital laundry and capacity for hospital laundries may need to be increased.
Possibly it’s just a sign of age. Like the “you taught my parent” that I had this year.
Must have been the best revision session ever.
I of course didn’t recognise him at all!
Is she still planning to step down later this year?
Edit of course: Initial Teacher Training
Sure you won't pick one of my 3 options? Gun to head?
When I was a lecturer in the UK, you could spot the private school UCAS applicants a mile off by the way the personal statement was worded. I'm sure they were written by their teachers.
I do wonder if our politicians think most people wouldn't understand it if it were explained to them - the answer to that is not if it is explained coherently and properly.
But OK, on the fence then. I'll ask you again in a few weeks.
If the UK included care home deaths in its daily bulletin I suspect the public would be shocked .
Next year.
Well to be exact Merkel Stepped down as CDU leader in 2018, but obviosly she is stll Chancellor. The CDU are making such a pigs ear of finding a suitable Chancellor Candidate that maybe she will be forced to carry on!
The case curve which being frank is more important than the death curve isn't where it needs to be, peaks remain peaks for weeks. We need the cases to carry on just at a manageable rate
Secondly, let continental Europe be the lab for week or two and learn.
I would agree he will walk into one if he wants it, but not because of that. It’s because he’s a physics teacher and they’re rarer than costed policies in a Labour manifesto.
I don’t know about PPE, but in pharma the machinery is custom made and there is a 6-9 month minimum lead time
I expect support for the government on virus handling will fall away quite rapidly if the situation isn't resolved by Monday. The first nurse who dies because they didn't have PPE is going to be on the front page of The Sun and the government will have no answer. The reason they won't have an answer is because there was a very well publicised procurement and manufacturing programme for ventilators which has proven highly successful. The question that has no answer is why wasn't that same programme rolled out for PPE which we knew would face the same level of international shortages.
I hope Boris gets better very soon and sacks every single person involved with this PPE procurement failure. Hancock first, the guy is a walking disaster, buying back Hunt.
@andreinawie
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22h
BREAKING NEWS:
New Nightingale Hospital in Glasgow has been renamed... ICU Jimmy
I'm puzzled - Newham has 834 confirmed cases which is those who both have had and still have the virus. The Borough's population is just over 350,000 so it's a very small number.
I'm well aware that is the tip of the iceberg (which isn't a bad anomaly) but do we think there are 10x or 20x more cases which have gone unreported primarily (I imagine) because the symptoms are mild - take the latter factor and that means just under 17,000 cases in Newham which would mean just under 5% of the population have or have had the virus which is quite a difference.
Extrapolate that across the country and 3.25 million have had or have the virus so perhaps it's not a factor of 20 but perhaps a factor of 10 but does anyone know?
Great point, fella!
We are agreed on the need to skin the cat.
Just a matter of how best to do it.
The margin of error is so broad. A lot of people from top to bottom in public health would l suspect be delighted to be able to hang their hats on infections running at 20 times confirmed cases, because then we'd be getting somewhere.
But unfortunately one of the weaknesses of Labour and indeed the radical left more widely is that while they have always known what they are against they very seldom have a positive vision of what they are actually for.
There are some very thick kids in private schools.
Large sixth form colleges are often brilliant. And underfunded.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/17/santa-clara-covid-19-antibody-study-suggests-broad-asymptomatic-spread.html
Given that we already expect between 3-5% (as per Whitty or Vallance, I forget which), this is just in line with expectations. In hotspots they have found more like 15% but they had massive community transmission.
He tweeted similar message re 2 other States too.
The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.
Every child will be educated brilliantly.
Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.
Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.
I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.
Given that healthcare workers are still getting exposed, key workers are still interacting, and households are not isolating every member away from each other, and people are still buying food, it’s stunningly easy to understand why an infectivity rate of only a little under 1 is still possible in lockdown.
You seem to be imagining that “lockdown” means everyone sitting in solitary confinement, unmoving for weeks on end. Do you really think that?
On average though the comment holds, plus parental pressure tends to be higher at private schools to get good grades
And I agree with @Cyclefree, the Times obituary of your father was equal parts fascinating and heart-warming.
In Leicester we have an interesting system where for some years we have evaluated our multiple interviews (we do 8 short ones), A levels and other features against performance through the course, and use this feedback to help choose the best applicants.
We no longer look at personal statements, prefer post A level applications, and introduced some new stations. All of these predicted course performance better, and we also only offer hospital experience attachments to private pupils after the state schools have had first pick.
It surprises me how few university courses do this review of applications for feedback on performance.
Edit - although paradoxically, if the Department for Eejits and Scum was abolished, you couldn’t be education secretary...
A bit like Michael Gove.
But leaving universities with a blank year is something they are never going to agree to.
https://www.ft.com/video/96240572-7e35-4fcd-aecb-8f503d529354
I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
(So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
Everyone would have to address me as Mr President.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/tomswalkforthenhs
Our scoring algorithm simply gives more points for an actual A level over a predicted one*. We also find that some time working in the care sector brings extra maturity to the students. They are better on our acting stations with simulated patients.
*private schools over egg their predictions compared to state schools which tend to underestimate their brightest. This is one way to level the playing field without ruling out exceptional 6 th formers.
Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
5% of state school teachers and 17% of independent school teachers went to Oxbridge.
https://www.suttontrust.com/our-research/teaching-by-degrees/
But we’ve been ordered not even to send coursework. We were told not to ask for it to be finished. But apparently we have to take it in and mark it in case any of them want to resit! (Both of those come from OFQUAL.)