The media are London sentric, talk amongst themselves about constitutional and other boring minutiae, while the political journalists shame themselves ever seeking the perfect 'gotcha' moment and possess an enormous opinion of themselves while looking ridiculous to most ordinary listeners. Indeed they treat their audience at times as if they are children incapable of seeing a wider picture and expecting them to swallow their mutterings.
To me the downside of all this is that we are losing vital debate, and information, from non politicals that is necessary and informative
All the media have managed to do is discredit themselves to the point of irrelevance at a time of great crisis. In so doing they have become boring to the point that peoople will stop listening
I want the government held to account and somehow the media need to take a long hard look at themselves, and put themselves on the judgment step, and ask are we really promoting public broadcast journalism?
I think the prattling on about constitutional minutiae has come about owing to the fact that they had 2.5 years to obsess about it with Brexit which in 2019 took a turn for the ludicrous and we had months of “well what if X happens? what if a GONU is formed? What if Ken Clarke becomes PM? What if Corbyn takes over?” All of which wasn’t particularly likely or feasible but given the absurdity of the situation it filled lots of column inches for them and they could pass it off as legitimate political insight.
No longer "Downing Street confirmed..." lockdown review is delayed because BoJo is ill. Now it is "No.10 suggested..." the review wouldn't go ahead as planned.
Two options.
1. Beeb overreach and misreported the first item, subsequently amended; or 2. Downing Street needed a better line for consumption on why the review wasn't going ahead.
You picks your tinfoil and takes your choice.
It really doesn't matter. We aren't coming out of lockdown for many more weeks. We haven't reached the peak and we don't have the antibody tests.
The media were screaming to be locked down as soon as possible, now after just 2 weeks, they screaming for it to change. 2 sodding weeks. I have had naps longer than that.
Anybody with half a brain can see it will be 2-3 months, just as in Spain, Italy, France.
My half-brain prefers to base it on statistics and hospital figures. If they indicate that we an on the downside.....
1. Americans get what they vote for. They keep voting for wazzocks wanting to kill voters or allowing lunatics to kill their children - its a free world. That the GOP are both on record stating that allowing people to vote easily means more democrats hence the efforts to kill off the voters and no-one bats an eyelid is only possible in America.
This isn't an attack on America, its recognising and respecting their choice to manage their society as they want. The rest of the world may scratch its head but its not up to us.
2. Of course the gulf in who is running the country is a story. It was before Johnson was in ICU so why would it not be the bigger story now that he is? I get the impression that some posters think the role of our media should only be to organise love-ins for Boris.
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
I've seen plenty of such snowflakey complaints about the language. To which I say:
1. It's a perfectly normal metaphor, with a long history. 2. It reflects Boris' personality. 3. Praising one person in such terms implies no disparagement of anyone else. 4. Is language policing really a top priority right now? 5. Grow the fuck up. 6. No, seriously, grow the fuck up.
That response only goes to confirm my opinion about the crass mentality of the original sentiment.
Your inability to actually argue with any of the points is also telling...
Pardon me for not coming up with a counter-argument to "Grow the fuck up" or "No, seriously, grow the fuck up".
And the polite and factual points 1-4? Can't see any response to those.
I assume if Boris dies and the papers all report it as "Boris beaten by COVID" or "Boris didn't fight hard enough", you'll be happy with that?
Oooops ... looks like Gaby's been the first to have a little accident this morning! Now go play with the Duplo while we get the mop and the tissues, OK?
You should try reading it, if you can
Raab’s new status is essentially a means of preventing the chain of command from becoming confused or mired in internecine cabinet rivalries, although it remains to be seen whether he really has the authority to knock his colleagues’ heads together. (Those who wonder why it’s him in charge rather than the Cabinet Office minister, Michael Gove, now self-isolating after a family member showed coronavirus symptoms, perhaps miss the point that Johnson was nominating not a successor but a caretaker.)
And the Times explains why it was Raab, and not anybody else Dominic Raab was made first secretary of state by Boris Johnson because he offered his “unconditional” support during the Tory leadership contest and was considered “rock solid” on Brexit.
Trust is a good character trait shocker....
As I said a couple of days ago, I would have chosen Raab too. He is warm and responsible. And good humoured.
He isn't going to use it as a platform.
I do, however, worry about him neglecting his day job which is, apparently, to send airplanes to every far-flung part of the globe to rescue tourists who, barely two weeks ago, were boasting on social media about this wonderfully peaceful far-flung part of the globe they had recently discovered.
1. Americans get what they vote for. They keep voting for wazzocks wanting to kill voters or allowing lunatics to kill their children - its a free world. That the GOP are both on record stating that allowing people to vote easily means more democrats hence the efforts to kill off the voters and no-one bats an eyelid is only possible in America.
This isn't an attack on America, its recognising and respecting their choice to manage their society as they want. The rest of the world may scratch its head but its not up to us.
And all the people in the US who aren't on board with this?
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
I've seen plenty of such snowflakey complaints about the language. To which I say:
1. It's a perfectly normal metaphor, with a long history. 2. It reflects Boris' personality. 3. Praising one person in such terms implies no disparagement of anyone else. 4. Is language policing really a top priority right now? 5. Grow the fuck up. 6. No, seriously, grow the fuck up.
That response only goes to confirm my opinion about the crass mentality of the original sentiment.
Your inability to actually argue with any of the points is also telling...
Pardon me for not coming up with a counter-argument to "Grow the fuck up" or "No, seriously, grow the fuck up".
Actually, I'm going to double down on that. The Prime Minister's life hangs by a thread in a time of national crisis - the perverse compulsion to nitpick details of theoretically un-PC language at such a time is intellectually and emotionally infantile.
If Labour want a majority, they'll need a lot more than the 6 Scottish Tory seats. Doubt there was any strategy that could have prevented SNP 2015 result.
The quote that has been extracted from is literally the wrongest take on Scottish politics I have read in the last 5 years and I read Political Betting everyday so I've read a lot of wrong takes in that time.
Lol. Sounds like a challenge to me.
SLDs - do Slab woes give them a shot in Glasgow?
Not really. They may scrape a list seat if they're lucky next year.
I think the stars may be aligning for a SLAB recovery.
They have a serious UK Leader with a demeanour and profile which should appeal, notwithstanding his London constituency. And he's called Keir. That provides a necessary context for recovery.
Grown-ups have made a come-back in the Scottish Party, with Jackie Baillie elected deputy and the return of Ian Murray as Shadow SoS.
The coronavirus and its implications for the economy cry out out for a UK-wide approach. People are going to be impatient with nitpicking about Scottish "solutions" which are different.
SNP looking tired and divisions bubbling away following Salmond trial.
The BIG (actually HUGE) obstacle is Richard Leonard who is totally implausible. The lesson from the SCon recovery is that the leader does matter. Ruth Davidson was transformative and the SNP were unsettled by her. They just love Leonard though.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
The media are London sentric, talk amongst themselves about constitutional and other boring minutiae, while the political journalists shame themselves ever seeking the perfect 'gotcha' moment and possess an enormous opinion of themselves while looking ridiculous to most ordinary listeners. Indeed they treat their audience at times as if they are children incapable of seeing a wider picture and expecting them to swallow their mutterings.
To me the downside of all this is that we are losing vital debate, and information, from non politicals that is necessary and informative
All the media have managed to do is discredit themselves to the point of irrelevance at a time of great crisis. In so doing they have become boring to the point that peoople will stop listening
I want the government held to account and somehow the media need to take a long hard look at themselves, and put themselves on the judgment step, and ask are we really promoting public broadcast journalism?
Or Downing Street could have anticipated these obvious questions and provided detailed answers. It's not hard.
I hope someone in the CMO’s office is speaking to the Swedes to understand precisely what they are doing and whether there is anything we might learn from them.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
If Labour want a majority, they'll need a lot more than the 6 Scottish Tory seats. Doubt there was any strategy that could have prevented SNP 2015 result.
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
They fight and lose as opposed to fighting and winning. So in Trumpspeak they are "losers". Fortunately Boris is both a "fighter" and a "winner" - again Trump. He told us this yesterday. But he tempered this rousing talk with some judicious caution as one would expect from a man in his position. "ICU," he noted, "is really big stuff". And then he dropped the highfalutin oratory and got practical, offering to supply Boris with some medicine to make him better.
I don't think this issue of what to do with a PM incapacitated should be that hard to resolve. We have a first secretary of state. The cabinet should support him or resign. Mr Sedwill and the civil service should be supporting him and if not Mr Raab needs to phone the palace.
I say this as someone who has not a lot of faith in Raab but he is the only person to lead right now.
I hope we aren't living through a real life version of the film Dave - aka advisers behind the scenes.
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
I've seen plenty of such snowflakey complaints about the language. To which I say:
1. It's a perfectly normal metaphor, with a long history. 2. It reflects Boris' personality. 3. Praising one person in such terms implies no disparagement of anyone else. 4. Is language policing really a top priority right now? 5. Grow the fuck up. 6. No, seriously, grow the fuck up.
That response only goes to confirm my opinion about the crass mentality of the original sentiment.
Your inability to actually argue with any of the points is also telling...
And surely (7) yes mental attitude can have an effect on how well you fight off disease. Although presumably not when you are sedated and intubated.
Perhaps a minor effect. But really, "he's a fighter, he'll pull through". How does that kind of guff help anyone?
On topic. We know Black Death travelled on fleas. We know at least one tiger has corona virus. Can Raab make a decision about ramping up Tiger Testing?
perhaps the chief medical eggheads can tell us if Germany have tested all their tigers yet? I mean if the scientist is going to say that whilst stood next to the acting Prime Minister, what’s the thick of it behind the scenes scientists having with this governments equivalent of Alistair Campbell?
The media are London sentric, talk amongst themselves about constitutional and other boring minutiae, while the political journalists shame themselves ever seeking the perfect 'gotcha' moment and possess an enormous opinion of themselves while looking ridiculous to most ordinary listeners. Indeed they treat their audience at times as if they are children incapable of seeing a wider picture and expecting them to swallow their mutterings.
To me the downside of all this is that we are losing vital debate, and information, from non politicals that is necessary and informative
All the media have managed to do is discredit themselves to the point of irrelevance at a time of great crisis. In so doing they have become boring to the point that peoople will stop listening
I want the government held to account and somehow the media need to take a long hard look at themselves, and put themselves on the judgment step, and ask are we really promoting public broadcast journalism?
Or Downing Street could have anticipated these obvious questions and provided detailed answers. It's not hard.
It is cabinet government and Raab is the de facto PM and he will make decisions accordingly
It’s very obvious that after the initial lockdown, which will (hopefully) crush the exponential rise in cases that threatens to completely overwhelm our health services, we will move to something like the Swedish model, probably swinging back and forth between tighter & looser lockdown as the case load indicates.
Blowhards like Hitchens will of course claim that this "climbdown" means that "they were right all along".
I hope someone in the CMO’s office is speaking to the Swedes to understand precisely what they are doing and whether there is anything we might learn from them.
I think there is probably quite a few factors which one can't simply transfer which help e.g. lower population density and less people per household.
Also, although there isn't a lockdown, it is slightly misreported that they are going about normal life. I don't believe that is true, they are still being told to be extra careful, and the feeling is that Swedes will listen to the government and react accordingly, rather than having to be forced to do so with lowest common denominator rules.
If Labour want a majority, they'll need a lot more than the 6 Scottish Tory seats. Doubt there was any strategy that could have prevented SNP 2015 result.
The quote that has been extracted from is literally the wrongest take on Scottish politics I have read in the last 5 years and I read Political Betting everyday so I've read a lot of wrong takes in that time.
Lol. Sounds like a challenge to me.
SLDs - do Slab woes give them a shot in Glasgow?
Not really. They may scrape a list seat if they're lucky next year.
I think the stars may be aligning for a SLAB recovery.
They have a serious UK Leader with a demeanour and profile which should appeal, notwithstanding his London constituency. And he's called Keir. That provides a necessary context for recovery.
Grown-ups have made a come-back in the Scottish Party, with Jackie Baillie elected deputy and the return of Ian Murray as Shadow SoS.
The coronavirus and its implications for the economy cry out out for a UK-wide approach. People are going to be impatient with nitpicking about Scottish "solutions" which are different.
SNP looking tired and divisions bubbling away following Salmond trial.
The BIG (actually HUGE) obstacle is Richard Leonard who is totally implausible. The lesson from the SCon recovery is that the leader does matter. Ruth Davidson was transformative and the SNP were unsettled by her. They just love Leonard though.
They really need to get shot of Leonard. If SLAB could actually find someone who could looks 'First ministerial', then they'd actually stand a chance of recovering and capitalising on any future SNP infighting.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
Do you believe the Chinese figures on anything ?
Things are definitely getting going again there, though. And orders are coming from Chinese organisations.
The CCP’s figures are out and out fabrication. There is no doubt things have improved there, the non CCP channels confirm that, but the CCP figures should be (figuratively) burned.
Actually that should say, "Due to NHS cuts, the Prime Minister remains in a stable...."
Is it possible he has needed BIPAP which is not technically mechanical ventilation. With the news that he is on 4 litres of Oxygen, one wonders whether he suffers from COPD where in lower levels of Oxygen are used rather than the full 15 litres. Could be why he has suffered worse than Hancock and Witty.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Why do I keep coming back here and wasting my time on this kind of drivel?
If Labour want a majority, they'll need a lot more than the 6 Scottish Tory seats. Doubt there was any strategy that could have prevented SNP 2015 result.
The quote that has been extracted from is literally the wrongest take on Scottish politics I have read in the last 5 years and I read Political Betting everyday so I've read a lot of wrong takes in that time.
Lol. Sounds like a challenge to me.
SLDs - do Slab woes give them a shot in Glasgow?
Not really. They may scrape a list seat if they're lucky next year.
I think the stars may be aligning for a SLAB recovery.
They have a serious UK Leader with a demeanour and profile which should appeal, notwithstanding his London constituency. And he's called Keir. That provides a necessary context for recovery.
Grown-ups have made a come-back in the Scottish Party, with Jackie Baillie elected deputy and the return of Ian Murray as Shadow SoS.
The coronavirus and its implications for the economy cry out out for a UK-wide approach. People are going to be impatient with nitpicking about Scottish "solutions" which are different.
SNP looking tired and divisions bubbling away following Salmond trial.
The BIG (actually HUGE) obstacle is Richard Leonard who is totally implausible. The lesson from the SCon recovery is that the leader does matter. Ruth Davidson was transformative and the SNP were unsettled by her. They just love Leonard though.
And which of the possible candidates would be the transformative and unsettling SLab leader that mattered? AfaIcs the only question that those available would be the answer to is (like Coleslaw and Baillie): who hasn't had a go yet?
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Better than that and its the one all TMay supporters love to forget.. The Chinese are coming over to run enormous nuclear fusion reactors at Hinkley and possibly other destinations.
Almost as if the Grim Reaper has a quota, but beyond that, isn't much interested.
Although, I suspect he will get a produtivity bonus for April.
That’s pretty much what I have been thinking. A certain amount of people die each year, and if we have a few months of low death rate, expect a bad few to come, or a bad year.
It’s like if you expect 10 corners in a football match. Most of the time the split will be 4/6 first/second half, but sometimes it’s 0/10, and sometimes there are 5 and others 15. Or if a scratch golfer birdies the first 6 holes, expect a few bogeys
What I find most baffling, @Anabobazina seems to concur, is the anger that considering graphs, numbers whatever from people who disagree with the government provokes. This situation is quite unprecedented and no one has a definitive answer, so why not keep an open mind rather than throw your lot in behind the consensus of a narrow band of officials?
Mr. Phil, that sounds plausible. I wonder if we might end up with geographical lockdowns (big cities, either collectively or individually) or if it'll be all or nothing each time.
It’s very obvious that after the initial lockdown, which will (hopefully) crush the exponential rise in cases that threatens to completely overwhelm our health services, we will move to something like the Swedish model, probably swinging back and forth between tighter & looser lockdown as the case load indicates.
Blowhards like Hitchens will of course claim that this "climbdown" means that "they were right all along".
This is a very odd virus and I am not sure that anyone really understands how it infects and the best way to deal with it. Yesterdays figures for Italy were seen as a bit of a success but there were still over 3000 new infections 29 days into a lockdown. I don't see how that demonstrates that a lockdown necessarily works and I still dont get how there can be that many new infections that far into a lockdown. It looks like Sweden is following the same virus curve as most European Countries without a lockdown.
If Labour want a majority, they'll need a lot more than the 6 Scottish Tory seats. Doubt there was any strategy that could have prevented SNP 2015 result.
The quote that has been extracted from is literally the wrongest take on Scottish politics I have read in the last 5 years and I read Political Betting everyday so I've read a lot of wrong takes in that time.
Lol. Sounds like a challenge to me.
SLDs - do Slab woes give them a shot in Glasgow?
Not really. They may scrape a list seat if they're lucky next year.
I think the stars may be aligning for a SLAB recovery.
They have a serious UK Leader with a demeanour and profile which should appeal, notwithstanding his London constituency. And he's called Keir. That provides a necessary context for recovery.
Grown-ups have made a come-back in the Scottish Party, with Jackie Baillie elected deputy and the return of Ian Murray as Shadow SoS.
The coronavirus and its implications for the economy cry out out for a UK-wide approach. People are going to be impatient with nitpicking about Scottish "solutions" which are different.
SNP looking tired and divisions bubbling away following Salmond trial.
The BIG (actually HUGE) obstacle is Richard Leonard who is totally implausible. The lesson from the SCon recovery is that the leader does matter. Ruth Davidson was transformative and the SNP were unsettled by her. They just love Leonard though.
They really need to get shot of Leonard. If SLAB could actually find someone who could looks 'First ministerial', then they'd actually stand a chance of recovering and capitalising on any future SNP infighting.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Why do I keep coming back here and wasting my time on this kind of drivel?
Coronavirus is clearly racist....obviously nothing to do with things like it is known that a number of underlying health conditions are much more prevalent in black and Asian people for not totally understood genetic reasons.
And Asians much more likely to live in multi-generational households e.g. like Northern Italy. And live in urban areas, which much higher population density.
And organized places of worship appear to be a very good transport vector.
Jews are being disproportionally affected as well. So CV is clearly antisemtic as well.
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
I've seen plenty of such snowflakey complaints about the language. To which I say:
1. It's a perfectly normal metaphor, with a long history. 2. It reflects Boris' personality. 3. Praising one person in such terms implies no disparagement of anyone else. 4. Is language policing really a top priority right now? 5. Grow the fuck up. 6. No, seriously, grow the fuck up.
That response only goes to confirm my opinion about the crass mentality of the original sentiment.
Your inability to actually argue with any of the points is also telling...
Pardon me for not coming up with a counter-argument to "Grow the fuck up" or "No, seriously, grow the fuck up".
And the polite and factual points 1-4? Can't see any response to those.
I assume if Boris dies and the papers all report it as "Boris beaten by COVID" or "Boris didn't fight hard enough", you'll be happy with that?
It's a metaphor, not a logic system. It's perfectly acceptable to use a metaphor for an ill person at a point where its implications are favourable, and then drop it at a point where its implications are not. The use of language is flexible like that.
EDIT: And if the worst happens, I honestly don't find a report that begins 'After a long struggle, X has lost his battle with Covid-19' to be in any way disrespectful or inappropriate.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Why do I keep coming back here and wasting my time on this kind of drivel?
Almost as if the Grim Reaper has a quota, but beyond that, isn't much interested.
Although, I suspect he will get a produtivity bonus for April.
That’s pretty much what I have been thinking. A certain amount of people die each year, and if we have a few months of low death rate, expect a bad few to come, or a bad year.
It’s like if you expect 10 corners in a football match. Most of the time the split will be 4/6 first/second half, but sometimes it’s 0/10, and sometimes there are 5 and others 15. Or if a scratch golfer birdies the first 6 holes, expect a few bogeys
What I find most baffling, @Anabobazina seems to concur, is the anger that considering graphs, numbers whatever from people who disagree with the government provokes. This situation is quite unprecedented and no one has a definitive answer, so why not keep an open mind rather than throw your lot in behind the consensus of a narrow band of officials?
Graph looks a bit like an iceberg don’t you think? I’m just sayin’...
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
I've seen plenty of such snowflakey complaints about the language. To which I say:
1. It's a perfectly normal metaphor, with a long history. 2. It reflects Boris' personality. 3. Praising one person in such terms implies no disparagement of anyone else. 4. Is language policing really a top priority right now? 5. Grow the fuck up. 6. No, seriously, grow the fuck up.
That response only goes to confirm my opinion about the crass mentality of the original sentiment.
Your inability to actually argue with any of the points is also telling...
Pardon me for not coming up with a counter-argument to "Grow the fuck up" or "No, seriously, grow the fuck up".
And the polite and factual points 1-4? Can't see any response to those.
I assume if Boris dies and the papers all report it as "Boris beaten by COVID" or "Boris didn't fight hard enough", you'll be happy with that?
It's a metaphor, not a logic system. It's perfectly acceptable to use a metaphor for an ill person at a point where its implications are favourable, and then drop it at a point where its implications are not. The use of language is flexible like that.
Obviously it'd be acceptable to drop it in that case, I'm asking if you think it'd be acceptable not to drop
. Ruth Davidson was transformative and the SNP were unsettled by her. They just love Leonard though.
The entirety of her electoral success was made by abandoning the approach she was elected on and adopting Murdo Fraser's ideas.
My thesis is that Murdo Fraser would have done exactly as well as Davidson electorally.
Well not entirely. Granted, she did move in his direction but Murdo's signature proposal was to bin the Party's identity and start afresh with a new name etc. Ruth certainly didn't do that and was right not to. Also, I think you underestimate the personal impact Ruth had in dispelling the stereotypical Tory image. Murdo would not have done so well although he's very competent.
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Or Downing Street could have anticipated these obvious questions and provided detailed answers. It's not hard.
They followed the Johnson methodology of reflexively telling the first lie that occurs -'mild symptoms','going to hospital for tests', etc. Hence the current crisis.
It’s very obvious that after the initial lockdown, which will (hopefully) crush the exponential rise in cases that threatens to completely overwhelm our health services, we will move to something like the Swedish model, probably swinging back and forth between tighter & looser lockdown as the case load indicates.
Blowhards like Hitchens will of course claim that this "climbdown" means that "they were right all along".
You mean you will never admit they where correct all along.
I hope someone in the CMO’s office is speaking to the Swedes to understand precisely what they are doing and whether there is anything we might learn from them.
I think there is probably quite a few factors which one can't simply transfer which help e.g. lower population density and less people per household.
Also, although there isn't a lockdown, it is slightly misreported that they are going about normal life. I don't believe that is true, they are still being told to be extra careful, and the feeling is that Swedes will listen to the government and react accordingly, rather than having to be forced to do so with lowest common denominator rules.
No doubt. Just seems to me that if there are good practices which we could copy from them we should do so, especially when restrictions are eased to a greater or lesser extent.
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
What makes me laugh is the way they have been consistently reporting 30+ new infections every day for a while now. They must take the rest of the world for idiots. On the other hand if they only test 50 people a day I suppose they are technically not lying.
What I find most baffling, @Anabobazina seems to concur, is the anger that considering graphs, numbers whatever from people who disagree with the government provokes. This situation is quite unprecedented and no one has a definitive answer, so why not keep an open mind rather than throw your lot in behind the consensus of a narrow band of officials?
Indeed.
Since there is nothing I can do about it, I think I will go and spend time in a less negative environment than social media. I can hear that Black Dog barking again....
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
Yes but Devon is in the middle of nowhere and has an infection rate three times lower than London at least. The hospitals are at breaking point and the people working there are understandably cacking it. This lockdown needs to carry on
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
That's true. We aren't at capacity because we haven't reached peak yet except in a few hot spots. My daughter works at Ninewells hospital in Dundee. They are busier but still nothing like capacity. Best guess is that is still 2 weeks away, possibly more.
Regarding Patel, that she has gone away is a Good Thing. Not least for the Conservative Party because whilst you HYUFD-wing may like her, most normals are repelled by her.
As for borders this ties directly into Brexit. A key fundament for our Need to Leave was to control our borders. In the EU it was illegal* for us to restrict freedom of movement, EU states can't close or even restrict access through their borders for people and stuff therefore we had to leave not just the EU but all the non-EU things like the EEA which people were encouraged to confuse with the EU.
So we left the EU. And here we are, sovereign borders and all letting in literally anyone without checks. Whereas in the EU and even in Schengen where it is illegal* to have a border they have closed their borders at time and imposed checks and restrictions. Huzzah for Patel and Boris's Brexit policy!
The negotiations we are told must plow on to the schedule. Set aside the absurdity of trying to negotiate this at impossible speed in the midst of a pandemic, what specifically are we negotiating towards? We need to leave everything so that we can impose checks which are illegal* and impossible in the EU which have now been imposed in the EU. We have to leave the Free Trade Area and all free trade agreements so that we can have free trade. The need for trade after the pandemic will make this absurdity patently batshit, and with all the restrictions that will have appeared, I sense that we can conclude our negotiations be laregly cementing into place the status quo and declaring success. After all its what he did with his renegotiation of May's terrible deal by simply agreeing to everything the EU demanded about a border down the Irish Sea whilst telling everyone that the border just agreed hadn't been agreed to.
I hope that once we get through the Pandemic that Starmer will patently tear this all apart lie by lie by absurdity.
Those headlines ... people who die from coronavirus aren't "fighters"? They just don't have the right mental attitude?
I've seen plenty of such snowflakey complaints about the language. To which I say:
1. It's a perfectly normal metaphor, with a long history. 2. It reflects Boris' personality. 3. Praising one person in such terms implies no disparagement of anyone else. 4. Is language policing really a top priority right now? 5. Grow the fuck up. 6. No, seriously, grow the fuck up.
That response only goes to confirm my opinion about the crass mentality of the original sentiment.
Your inability to actually argue with any of the points is also telling...
Pardon me for not coming up with a counter-argument to "Grow the fuck up" or "No, seriously, grow the fuck up".
And the polite and factual points 1-4? Can't see any response to those.
I assume if Boris dies and the papers all report it as "Boris beaten by COVID" or "Boris didn't fight hard enough", you'll be happy with that?
It's a metaphor, not a logic system. It's perfectly acceptable to use a metaphor for an ill person at a point where its implications are favourable, and then drop it at a point where its implications are not. The use of language is flexible like that.
Obviously it'd be acceptable to drop it in that case, I'm asking if you think it'd be acceptable not to drop
As I said in my edit: 'if the worst happens, I honestly don't find a report that begins 'After a long struggle, X has lost his battle with Covid-19' to be in any way disrespectful or inappropriate.' There are of course appropriate and inappropriate ways in which the same metaphor can be deployed.
Mr. Phil, that sounds plausible. I wonder if we might end up with geographical lockdowns (big cities, either collectively or individually) or if it'll be all or nothing each time.
If the government can organise it effectively, then regional variation might make a lot of sense. London & the West Midlands are the current hotspots for instance - you could imagine letting things open up in the rest of the country first.
Clear communication would be key to this working effectively though, unless we put in place the kind of draconian controls the Chinese chose to use, which would be challenging.
(All the 2nd home owners who have decided it’s a great idea to head down to Cornwall for Easter from London are probably going to turn the SW into the next hotspot...)
Or Downing Street could have anticipated these obvious questions and provided detailed answers. It's not hard.
They followed the Johnson methodology of reflexively telling the first lie that occurs -'mild symptoms','going to hospital for tests', etc. Hence the current crisis.
In what way were they lies? He looked a bit rough when clapping for the NHS last Thursday but that qualifies as mild symptoms for this beast. He was admitted when he failed to improve after 10 days or so, quite rightly. Of course what he should have been doing is resting up and not working, even with mild symptoms.
I hope someone in the CMO’s office is speaking to the Swedes to understand precisely what they are doing and whether there is anything we might learn from them.
I think there is probably quite a few factors which one can't simply transfer which help e.g. lower population density and less people per household.
Also, although there isn't a lockdown, it is slightly misreported that they are going about normal life. I don't believe that is true, they are still being told to be extra careful, and the feeling is that Swedes will listen to the government and react accordingly, rather than having to be forced to do so with lowest common denominator rules.
They seem to be doing what our government originally asked us to do, before pubs, restaurants and schools were closed
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
What makes me laugh is the way they have been consistently reporting 30+ new infections every day for a while now. They must take the rest of the world for idiots. On the other hand if they only test 50 people a day I suppose they are technically not lying.
They are not recording asymptomatic people in the figures - so they say for example 30 infected plus 80 asymptomatic - Worldometer only shows the 30
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
Past week I have spoken to a number of healthcare professions in two parts of the country and both side they have actually never been quieter, as the number of non-CV admissions is only the very ill e.g. no time wasters in A&E, no picking up drunks fighting, few car accidents, no elective surgery and they don't take edge cases where they might usually take them in for observations.
They are ready and waiting for the CV wave to hit, been told coming, coming, coming...but as of yet not hit.
The media are London sentric, talk amongst themselves about constitutional and other boring minutiae, while the political journalists shame themselves ever seeking the perfect 'gotcha' moment and possess an enormous opinion of themselves while looking ridiculous to most ordinary listeners. Indeed they treat their audience at times as if they are children incapable of seeing a wider picture and expecting them to swallow their mutterings.
To me the downside of all this is that we are losing vital debate, and information, from non politicals that is necessary and informative
All the media have managed to do is discredit themselves to the point of irrelevance at a time of great crisis. In so doing they have become boring to the point that peoople will stop listening
I want the government held to account and somehow the media need to take a long hard look at themselves, and put themselves on the judgment step, and ask are we really promoting public broadcast journalism?
I think the prattling on about constitutional minutiae has come about owing to the fact that they had 2.5 years to obsess about it with Brexit which in 2019 took a turn for the ludicrous and we had months of “well what if X happens? what if a GONU is formed? What if Ken Clarke becomes PM? What if Corbyn takes over?” All of which wasn’t particularly likely or feasible but given the absurdity of the situation it filled lots of column inches for them and they could pass it off as legitimate political insight.
They’re used to it now.
It is usually a fun thing in fairness. But you have to know when its significant or not.
Regarding Patel, that she has gone away is a Good Thing. Not least for the Conservative Party because whilst you HYUFD-wing may like her, most normals are repelled by her.
As for borders this ties directly into Brexit. A key fundament for our Need to Leave was to control our borders. In the EU it was illegal* for us to restrict freedom of movement, EU states can't close or even restrict access through their borders for people and stuff therefore we had to leave not just the EU but all the non-EU things like the EEA which people were encouraged to confuse with the EU.
So we left the EU. And here we are, sovereign borders and all letting in literally anyone without checks. Whereas in the EU and even in Schengen where it is illegal* to have a border they have closed their borders at time and imposed checks and restrictions. Huzzah for Patel and Boris's Brexit policy!
The negotiations we are told must plow on to the schedule. Set aside the absurdity of trying to negotiate this at impossible speed in the midst of a pandemic, what specifically are we negotiating towards? We need to leave everything so that we can impose checks which are illegal* and impossible in the EU which have now been imposed in the EU. We have to leave the Free Trade Area and all free trade agreements so that we can have free trade. The need for trade after the pandemic will make this absurdity patently batshit, and with all the restrictions that will have appeared, I sense that we can conclude our negotiations be laregly cementing into place the status quo and declaring success. After all its what he did with his renegotiation of May's terrible deal by simply agreeing to everything the EU demanded about a border down the Irish Sea whilst telling everyone that the border just agreed hadn't been agreed to.
I hope that once we get through the Pandemic that Starmer will patently tear this all apart lie by lie by absurdity.
*not illegal but never mind
Bear in mind that the EU has hardly covered itself in glory - the 14 hour session undertaken by EU finance ministers has broken up without agreement due to impasse between Dutch and Italians.
Suspect you will see fewer and fewer people regretting decision to Leave.
I think Boris will have fun with Sir Keir's record as chief cheerleader for Remain.
She was quite prominent a couple of weeks ago when the police were asked to police lockdown.
Overall that's gone/is going quite well. What else is there for her to do at this point?
Gone well? Some forces went absolutely crazy acting extra-judiciously and had to be reigned in to start rescinding the tickets they had wrongly issued. The emergency regulations did not back up the pronouncements being made by ministers. Either the regulations were poorly written or the Home Office was deficient in reminding forces that a ministerial announcement is not the law.
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Why do I keep coming back here and wasting my time on this kind of drivel?
It is not compulsory
Speak for yourself, for me it was this or a sentence of hard labour...
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
Past week I have spoken to a number of healthcare professions in two parts of the country and both side they have actually never been quieter, as the number of non-CV admissions is only the very ill e.g. no time wasters in A&E, no picking up drunks fighting, few car accidents, no elective surgery and they don't take edge cases where they might usually take them in for observations.
They are ready and waiting for the CV wave to hit, been told coming, coming, coming...but as of yet not hit.
You live in some well off fringe bubble! NHS workers personally known to me are starting to be taken into intensive care now. Even the PM is stricken, nearly 1000 people a day are dying and its getting worse. I'm glad your rural hospital cosmetics department is a bit quiet! Why are you in denial?
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
Yes but Devon is in the middle of nowhere and has an infection rate three times lower than London at least. The hospitals are at breaking point and the people working there are understandably cacking it. This lockdown needs to carry on
Yes, I said it was patchy. Plus, of course, we have the new "pop-up" hospitals which provide extra capacity, with more to come. The reason for lockdown (a very good reason) was to "stop the NHS from falling over". If it is nowhere near falling over then pressure will mount for lockdown to be relaxed when it becomes clear that infection numbers have been tamed (which they should have been with lockdown in operation for, what, 13 days now?).
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Better than that and its the one all TMay supporters love to forget.. The Chinese are coming over to run enormous nuclear fusion reactors at Hinkley and possibly other destinations.
If they were nuclear fusion reactors there’d be a lot of nobel prizes to be handed out
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
That's true. We aren't at capacity because we haven't reached peak yet except in a few hot spots. My daughter works at Ninewells hospital in Dundee. They are busier but still nothing like capacity. Best guess is that is still 2 weeks away, possibly more.
Why are you so confidant that there is peak to come?
"It is too soon to judge the ultimate soundness of the UK’s early response. If history concludes that it was lacking, then the criticism levelled at the prime minister may be that, rather than ignoring the advice of his scientific advisers, he failed to question their assumptions."
Erhh, I don't mean to be funny, but do we want a bloke with a classics degree going all Robert Peston and thinking he knows the assumptions in complex mathematical models of expert in this field were wrong?
Imagine for a second he had overruled them, bloody hell fire the media would have gone total batshit crazy.
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
Past week I have spoken to a number of healthcare professions in two parts of the country and both side they have actually never been quieter, as the number of non-CV admissions is only the very ill e.g. no time wasters in A&E, no picking up drunks fighting, few car accidents, no elective surgery and they don't take edge cases where they might usually take them in for observations.
They are ready and waiting for the CV wave to hit, been told coming, coming, coming...but as of yet not hit.
Doctors Surgerys are the same, very few patients coming in, some telephone consultations, thats it. Strangely they have to open on Good Friday and Bank Holiday Monday. I doubt they will get many customers.
It’s very obvious that after the initial lockdown, which will (hopefully) crush the exponential rise in cases that threatens to completely overwhelm our health services, we will move to something like the Swedish model, probably swinging back and forth between tighter & looser lockdown as the case load indicates.
Blowhards like Hitchens will of course claim that this "climbdown" means that "they were right all along".
You mean you will never admit they where correct all along.
If it turns out that the true infection rate was very high & the lockdown was unnecessary as near herd immunity was already on the cards then I for one will very gladly cheer it from the rooftops, since it will mean that the long term bad outcomes are much, much less likely.
I’m not sure what outcome would make me "admit they were correct all along" however: the likely range of outcomes given the known features of the disease in the middle of March easily include 500k deaths in the near term if no corrective action was taken. Might it have turned out differently had we done nothing? Yes, but in these circumstances you have to make difficult choices with imperfect information.
What leads you to believe Hitchens is correct in the here and now, and that these measures are unnecessary given our current knowledge of how the virus propagates & the range of likely outcomes for those infected?
She was quite prominent a couple of weeks ago when the police were asked to police lockdown.
Overall that's gone/is going quite well. What else is there for her to do at this point?
Gone well? Some forces went absolutely crazy acting extra-judiciously and had to be reigned in to start rescinding the tickets they had wrongly issued. The emergency regulations did not back up the pronouncements being made by ministers. Either the regulations were poorly written or the Home Office was deficient in reminding forces that a ministerial announcement is not the law.
Of course going from a free and open society to one where where people can't leave there homes (except for very limited specific reasons) in a matter of days was always going to be challenging to say the least.
And as I say despite all the constant media carping and hysteria I think overall it's gone rather well personally (we'll find out next week if we see the numbers of infected leveling off)
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Better than that and its the one all TMay supporters love to forget.. The Chinese are coming over to run enormous nuclear fusion reactors at Hinkley and possibly other destinations.
If they were nuclear fusion reactors there’d be a lot of nobel prizes to be handed out
I'm glad someone spotted my brief quantum leap. Whats the strong force between friends?
I honestly wonder if the WHO will survive their handling of this.
No tanks in Baghdad Only 3,000 deaths in China...
Difficult to take any graph that still has the China figures on seriously.
Seriously, I would love to know what percentage of the true figure you think the UK case numbers represent.
Do you really think the UK confirmed cases are more than 1% of the real number of infections?
Uk is publishing positive tests figures and deaths.
Guesses at "no of cases" would be up there with Michael Mann's hockey stick graph.
You're unable even to guess how many cases there are in the UK.
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
You seem to be using karate on a straw man.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
The Chinese government murderously lied about the existence of COVID19 The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Correct.
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
Why do I keep coming back here and wasting my time on this kind of drivel?
Ok, I've read the header, I've read the thread, what are these critical decisions, exactly?
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but the NHS is not at capacity. The picture, I think, is patchy. Some hospitals are surprisingly quiet accoriding to some reports I`ve heard, including from a friend who works in a large hospital in Devon.
Past week I have spoken to a number of healthcare professions in two parts of the country and both side they have actually never been quieter, as the number of non-CV admissions is only the very ill e.g. no time wasters in A&E, no picking up drunks fighting, few car accidents, no elective surgery and they don't take edge cases where they might usually take them in for observations.
They are ready and waiting for the CV wave to hit, been told coming, coming, coming...but as of yet not hit.
You live in some well off fringe bubble! NHS workers personally known to me are starting to be taken into intensive care now. Even the PM is stricken, nearly 1000 people a day are dying and its getting worse. I'm glad your rural hospital cosmetics department is a bit quiet! Why are you in denial?
There have been suggestions/indications that parts of London are "ahead of the curve"
Comments
https://twitter.com/adissentient/status/1247810064511119364?s=21
--AS
Perhaps if you weren't so keen to dismiss such evidence as we have, you wouldn't be in quite such a complete state of ignorance.
They’re used to it now.
1. Americans get what they vote for. They keep voting for wazzocks wanting to kill voters or allowing lunatics to kill their children - its a free world. That the GOP are both on record stating that allowing people to vote easily means more democrats hence the efforts to kill off the voters and no-one bats an eyelid is only possible in America.
This isn't an attack on America, its recognising and respecting their choice to manage their society as they want. The rest of the world may scratch its head but its not up to us.
2. Of course the gulf in who is running the country is a story. It was before Johnson was in ICU so why would it not be the bigger story now that he is? I get the impression that some posters think the role of our media should only be to organise love-ins for Boris.
Do you believe the Chinese death figures Y/N ?
Although, I suspect he will get a produtivity bonus for April.
I think the stars may be aligning for a SLAB recovery.
They have a serious UK Leader with a demeanour and profile which should appeal, notwithstanding his London constituency. And he's called Keir. That provides a necessary context for recovery.
Grown-ups have made a come-back in the Scottish Party, with Jackie Baillie elected deputy and the return of Ian Murray as Shadow SoS.
The coronavirus and its implications for the economy cry out out for a UK-wide approach. People are going to be impatient with nitpicking about Scottish "solutions" which are different.
SNP looking tired and divisions bubbling away following Salmond trial.
The BIG (actually HUGE) obstacle is Richard Leonard who is totally implausible. The lesson from the SCon recovery is that the leader does matter. Ruth Davidson was transformative and the SNP were unsettled by her. They just love Leonard though.
The Chinese government murderously lied about human-to-human transmission
The Chinese government told the exact truth, openly, about the death rate from COVID19
Now if Chris has evidence that the Uk government is hiding deaths then that would be a story.
#notyournormalpolitician
I say this as someone who has not a lot of faith in Raab but he is the only person to lead right now.
I hope we aren't living through a real life version of the film Dave - aka advisers behind the scenes.
Simple
Blowhards like Hitchens will of course claim that this "climbdown" means that "they were right all along".
Also, although there isn't a lockdown, it is slightly misreported that they are going about normal life. I don't believe that is true, they are still being told to be extra careful, and the feeling is that Swedes will listen to the government and react accordingly, rather than having to be forced to do so with lowest common denominator rules.
https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1247774046638362626?s=21
It’s like if you expect 10 corners in a football match. Most of the time the split will be 4/6 first/second half, but sometimes it’s 0/10, and sometimes there are 5 and others 15. Or if a scratch golfer birdies the first 6 holes, expect a few bogeys
What I find most baffling, @Anabobazina seems to concur, is the anger that considering graphs, numbers whatever from people who disagree with the government provokes. This situation is quite unprecedented and no one has a definitive answer, so why not keep an open mind rather than throw your lot in behind the consensus of a narrow band of officials?
Sending a Get Well message to the pM.
Nothing else.
And Asians much more likely to live in multi-generational households e.g. like Northern Italy. And live in urban areas, which much higher population density.
And organized places of worship appear to be a very good transport vector.
Jews are being disproportionally affected as well. So CV is clearly antisemtic as well.
My thesis is that Murdo Fraser would have done exactly as well as Davidson electorally.
EDIT: And if the worst happens, I honestly don't find a report that begins 'After a long struggle, X has lost his battle with Covid-19' to be in any way disrespectful or inappropriate.
https://twitter.com/PatrickHWalsh/status/1247227639305306113?s=19
Swedes are observing a de facto Lockdown.
The only one mentioned is when we come out of lockdown. And the answer is when we are well past the peak and the NHS is no longer at capacity. Which is 3-4 weeks away.
Next.
Since there is nothing I can do about it, I think I will go and spend time in a less negative environment than social media. I can hear that Black Dog barking again....
Very, very much later peeps.....
Overall that's gone/is going quite well. What else is there for her to do at this point?
Groups of up to 50 are allowed, cafes and bars are still open as are shops and some schools
https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1245459673261711361?s=21
Mad. But exactly as predicted by the level-headed.
https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/04/06/covid-with-of-or-because-of/
As for borders this ties directly into Brexit. A key fundament for our Need to Leave was to control our borders. In the EU it was illegal* for us to restrict freedom of movement, EU states can't close or even restrict access through their borders for people and stuff therefore we had to leave not just the EU but all the non-EU things like the EEA which people were encouraged to confuse with the EU.
So we left the EU. And here we are, sovereign borders and all letting in literally anyone without checks. Whereas in the EU and even in Schengen where it is illegal* to have a border they have closed their borders at time and imposed checks and restrictions. Huzzah for Patel and Boris's Brexit policy!
The negotiations we are told must plow on to the schedule. Set aside the absurdity of trying to negotiate this at impossible speed in the midst of a pandemic, what specifically are we negotiating towards? We need to leave everything so that we can impose checks which are illegal* and impossible in the EU which have now been imposed in the EU. We have to leave the Free Trade Area and all free trade agreements so that we can have free trade. The need for trade after the pandemic will make this absurdity patently batshit, and with all the restrictions that will have appeared, I sense that we can conclude our negotiations be laregly cementing into place the status quo and declaring success. After all its what he did with his renegotiation of May's terrible deal by simply agreeing to everything the EU demanded about a border down the Irish Sea whilst telling everyone that the border just agreed hadn't been agreed to.
I hope that once we get through the Pandemic that Starmer will patently tear this all apart lie by lie by absurdity.
*not illegal but never mind
Clear communication would be key to this working effectively though, unless we put in place the kind of draconian controls the Chinese chose to use, which would be challenging.
(All the 2nd home owners who have decided it’s a great idea to head down to Cornwall for Easter from London are probably going to turn the SW into the next hotspot...)
They are ready and waiting for the CV wave to hit, been told coming, coming, coming...but as of yet not hit.
Suspect you will see fewer and fewer people regretting decision to Leave.
I think Boris will have fun with Sir Keir's record as chief cheerleader for Remain.
And I say that as someone who is hardly a starry eyed fan of the government response.
Erhh, I don't mean to be funny, but do we want a bloke with a classics degree going all Robert Peston and thinking he knows the assumptions in complex mathematical models of expert in this field were wrong?
Imagine for a second he had overruled them, bloody hell fire the media would have gone total batshit crazy.
I’m not sure what outcome would make me "admit they were correct all along" however: the likely range of outcomes given the known features of the disease in the middle of March easily include 500k deaths in the near term if no corrective action was taken. Might it have turned out differently had we done nothing? Yes, but in these circumstances you have to make difficult choices with imperfect information.
What leads you to believe Hitchens is correct in the here and now, and that these measures are unnecessary given our current knowledge of how the virus propagates & the range of likely outcomes for those infected?
And as I say despite all the constant media carping and hysteria I think overall it's gone rather well personally (we'll find out next week if we see the numbers of infected leveling off)