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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to the Wednesday PB Nighthawks

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    Almost certainly not first again!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Almost certainly not first again!

    Fake news.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704

    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    RobD said:

    Almost certainly not first again!

    Fake news.
    I think the 'almost' gets me off that charge.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667
    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    This site is getting more extreme and unforgiving as the crisis lights up. When I post calm, thoughtful stuff I get called all sorts of things. But last few days it’s more serious because I have been accused of bias, despite pointing to The Mail, FT, Guardian for research behind my argument, you try to make it out to be one bad egg.
    truth is, we’ve all got a bit of a bias, it displays your own bias to seek to batter or belittle 🥚 when you want to shut down discussion, Rather than engage in thoughtful discussion I am offering. So here goes, can you properly rise to the challenge. That is, what is it’s work...

    The nub of it I will explain like this. Sky Q. Go to a movie. Go parental advice. It gives you ratings as warning for what is deemed vices in it, profanity, sex nudity, violence, consumerism.

    Consumerism? Are you wondering why this is on the list, something to shield children from?

    https://images.gamewatcherstatic.com/image/file/7/74/104087/Crusader-Kings-3-0.jpg.

    If you are wondering what on earth consumerism is doing on the warning list, it is not your bias I am calling out, after all we all have bias. But your ignorance. I call you out as being behind the times. Claim you are lacking a consciousness of the garden you have been sitting in.

    What Corona crisis teaches us, it is mindfulness, sacrifice, and community our civilisation boils down to when faced with such a threat. But nothing stays the same in this world. where the garden around you changes for worst you need to appreciate your own soul to see this, and act to allow the mindfulness, sacrifice and community to flourish.

    And never is the lack of conscious awareness more stark on PB than when we all thrash around, being defensive, deflecting blame to others, in the abuse we give and names we call each other we come close to calling corona virus evil. Ask yourself, do you wish to excommunicate Coronavirus from the kingdom of heaven? what is your case for excommunication?

    Truth is, when it dies Coronavirus goes to heaven. And God thanks it for its work. Doesn’t he?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    How about the China cheerleaders ?
  • tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    I do not think China is relevant at present just as neither is Brexit
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    edited April 2020
    Does anyone have any insight on the SNP trying to end jury trials? It's not a good look.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    What about the shills such as yourself?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over
    A nice dash of quick witted humour comrade....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Joanna Lumley. Patsy from Absolutely Fabulous or Purdey from the Avengers.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Wasn't there a news bulletin where a taxi driver was inadvertently interviewed...you never know...he's not someone I've seen before...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a fact.

    And it's not anti Chinese. It's anti the communist Government of China.

    You need to prise open your eyes and look at what's in front of you.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Alok Sharma business Secretary. Did today's briefing.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    IshmaelZ said:

    Alok Sharma business Secretary. Did today's briefing.
    Dear dear dear. Scraping the barrel.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    FPT
    Well let’s hope that this is a one off but the tone and invective tonight is off putting. Are people Just letting their shutdown pent up frustrations out ? I hope so but it’s not a pleasant debating forum for some reason at the moment.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    How?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    How?
    That's the tricky bit, the West has slept and left themselves vulnerable.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over
    The PM is not that Ill
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    Er is that the anti-Chinese conspiracy theorists or the anti- Chinese conspiracy theorists who you want to stay away? :wink:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    IshmaelZ said:

    Alok Sharma business Secretary. Did today's briefing.
    Dear dear dear. Scraping the barrel.
    Well, he certainly drew the short straw. Brutal coverage tonight.
  • nichomar said:

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1245452678739656704
    This is a problem now that BoZo has proclaimed testing is the only way out of lockdown

    The country is being held hostage by that bumbling incompetent.
    Never mind, he is gone on Saturday and Starmer takes over
    The PM is not that Ill
    Fair reposte
  • tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    They can detect the groundswell of anger bubbling up on this testing mess?
  • tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    And Trump is and will be top of that list
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    egg said:

    This site is getting more extreme and unforgiving as the crisis lights up. When I post calm, thoughtful stuff I get called all sorts of things. But last few days it’s more serious because I have been accused of bias, despite pointing to The Mail, FT, Guardian for research behind my argument, you try to make it out to be one bad egg.
    truth is, we’ve all got a bit of a bias, it displays your own bias to seek to batter or belittle 🥚 when you want to shut down discussion, Rather than engage in thoughtful discussion I am offering. So here goes, can you properly rise to the challenge. That is, what is it’s work...

    The nub of it I will explain like this. Sky Q. Go to a movie. Go parental advice. It gives you ratings as warning for what is deemed vices in it, profanity, sex nudity, violence, consumerism.

    Consumerism? Are you wondering why this is on the list, something to shield children from?

    https://images.gamewatcherstatic.com/image/file/7/74/104087/Crusader-Kings-3-0.jpg.

    If you are wondering what on earth consumerism is doing on the warning list, it is not your bias I am calling out, after all we all have bias. But your ignorance. I call you out as being behind the times. Claim you are lacking a consciousness of the garden you have been sitting in.

    What Corona crisis teaches us, it is mindfulness, sacrifice, and community our civilisation boils down to when faced with such a threat. But nothing stays the same in this world. where the garden around you changes for worst you need to appreciate your own soul to see this, and act to allow the mindfulness, sacrifice and community to flourish.

    And never is the lack of conscious awareness more stark on PB than when we all thrash around, being defensive, deflecting blame to others, in the abuse we give and names we call each other we come close to calling corona virus evil. Ask yourself, do you wish to excommunicate Coronavirus from the kingdom of heaven? what is your case for excommunication?

    Truth is, when it dies Coronavirus goes to heaven. And God thanks it for its work. Doesn’t he?

    You appear to have cracked under the pressure @egg. That is truly a scrambled post.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    While on the other hand the 'China must not be blamed' comes from people eager to blame their own governments.

    Plus ca change ...
  • tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    And Trump is and will be top of that list
    Amen.
  • Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    They can detect the groundswell of anger bubbling up on this testing mess?
    Possibly but this is fast moving and in the next few weeks when testing is much improved they will find something else because the right wing papers hate the lockdown no matter how important it is
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Well over a decade ago the wet markets in live wild animals were flagged up as the next pandemic waiting to happen. The link to covid viruses in bats was highlighted at the save time. The Chinese government did nothing about it, even after the SARS outbreak.

    There is nothing racist in pointing that out and demanding that China changes its ways.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Hope everyone is well. Avoiding news for a bit. Be kind.
  • Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    They can detect the groundswell of anger bubbling up on this testing mess?
    If you look at the Mail, Piers Morgan has an article attacking the government and the experts, and the comments are all broadly pro-government anti-Piers

    Not sure the media attacks are backed by the public. Of course, all that could change in the next few weeks.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited April 2020
    Jonathan said:

    Hope everyone is well. Avoiding news for a bit. Be kind.

    And you look after yourself. And I very much endorse your plea to be kind
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Couldn't have "Nightingale".....

    A temporary field hospital which is being converted from a huge facility in Glasgow is to be named after a World War One nurse, the Scottish Government has announced.

    Glasgow's SEC Centre, Scotland's largest exhibition centre, a huge 64 acre site, which has a seating capacity of around 15,000, will soon be known as the NHS Louisa Jordan.


    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-04-01/work-begins-converting-several-uk-facilities-into-temporary-coronavirus-hospitals/
  • Just to add - you do wonder if a lot of the media and print journalists are being paid through companies so particularly stand to lose if Sunak regularises the situation between the employed and self-employed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Viral dose news.


    "For transient interactions that violate the rule of maintaining six feet between you and others, such as paying a cashier at the grocery store, keep them brief — aim for “within six feet, only six seconds.” "

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/opinion/coronavirus-viral-dose.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    And Trump is and will be top of that list
    Trump is a big fan of Xi Jinping and has gone out of his way to exclude him from blame, like some on this site
    The same Trump who called it 'the Chinese virus?'
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    edited April 2020

    Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    Perhaps 2000 tests for NHS staff (out of just...the small amount of 2.2million)....and we are what almost 3 months into this pandemic....these are front facing staff..

    It is probably the monumentally worst...I mean worst, most inept policy shitshow, act of Govt incompetence....to try and get your head around that lack of judgement is like figuring how the universe was created...

    When I saw that figure I almost choked on my lentil curry...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....


    Does "sceptics" fit the bill?

    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1245371987851165698?s=20
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Florida introduces a statewide lockdown, then exempts all religious services. Crazy Americans,
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    edited April 2020
    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    What is an anti Chinese conspiracy theorist in this context? What would they believe?
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,059
    edited April 2020
    PB is in danger of disappearing up its own arse. Yer demanding a place at government pressers and every fucker is an expert in everything. And the last thread was a shocker. Not the header, but the way that you all decided the coppers are all corrupt, lazy, incompetent bastards. Not PBs finest hour.
  • eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    This is rewriting history. The world was sufficiently warned, whether the 'true' number of deaths/cases was underreported or not. This is just a cheap copout for those who failed to respond to the facts more decisively.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    egg said:

    This site is getting more extreme and unforgiving as the crisis lights up. When I post calm, thoughtful stuff I get called all sorts of things. But last few days it’s more serious because I have been accused of bias, despite pointing to The Mail, FT, Guardian for research behind my argument, you try to make it out to be one bad egg.
    truth is, we’ve all got a bit of a bias, it displays your own bias to seek to batter or belittle 🥚 when you want to shut down discussion, Rather than engage in thoughtful discussion I am offering. So here goes, can you properly rise to the challenge. That is, what is it’s work...

    The nub of it I will explain like this. Sky Q. Go to a movie. Go parental advice. It gives you ratings as warning for what is deemed vices in it, profanity, sex nudity, violence, consumerism.

    Consumerism? Are you wondering why this is on the list, something to shield children from?

    https://images.gamewatcherstatic.com/image/file/7/74/104087/Crusader-Kings-3-0.jpg.

    If you are wondering what on earth consumerism is doing on the warning list, it is not your bias I am calling out, after all we all have bias. But your ignorance. I call you out as being behind the times. Claim you are lacking a consciousness of the garden you have been sitting in.

    What Corona crisis teaches us, it is mindfulness, sacrifice, and community our civilisation boils down to when faced with such a threat. But nothing stays the same in this world. where the garden around you changes for worst you need to appreciate your own soul to see this, and act to allow the mindfulness, sacrifice and community to flourish.

    And never is the lack of conscious awareness more stark on PB than when we all thrash around, being defensive, deflecting blame to others, in the abuse we give and names we call each other we come close to calling corona virus evil. Ask yourself, do you wish to excommunicate Coronavirus from the kingdom of heaven? what is your case for excommunication?

    Truth is, when it dies Coronavirus goes to heaven. And God thanks it for its work. Doesn’t he?

    Mumbo jumbo alert.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    This is rewriting history. The world was sufficiently warned, whether the 'true' number of deaths/cases was underreported or not. This is just a cheap copout for those who failed to respond to the facts more decisively.
    Unspoofable.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    A politico-philosophical issue I've been thinking about but am struggling to put into words:

    How much are either governments or people in control in their countries and how much is under control of 'bureaucratic management' ?

    And is this exposed under a crisis such as what we have now ?

    Trotsky wrote about this issue:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667
    IanB2 said:

    Florida introduces a statewide lockdown, then exempts all religious services. Crazy Americans,

    The Johnson government puts the entire UK population into lockdown, and then allows anybody from America to enter the coutry without any kind of check. Crazy Conservatives.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.
  • PB is in danger of disappearing up its own arse. Yer demanding a place at government pressers and every fucker is an expert in everything. And the last thread was a shocker. Not the header, but the way that you all decided the coppers are all corrupt, lazy, incompetent bastards. Not PBs finest hour.

    I didn't.

    I defended resolutely North Wales police action and that it has wide support here in North Wales
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    PB is in danger of disappearing up its own arse. Yer demanding a place at government pressers and every fucker is an expert in everything. And the last thread was a shocker. Not the header, but the way that you all decided the coppers are all corrupt, lazy, incompetent bastards. Not PBs finest hour.

    We have disappeared there plenty of times and lived to tell the tale....

    FWIW...I used to be a raving anti police lefty (during the miners strike)...but after many years working with the police in different guises, I have really come to respect them....
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Little chance of anyone holding China to account. How would you do that? In what forum?

    China is the most technologically advanced totalitarian state in the history of the world. They can manipulate information in the interests of perpetuating the power of the state.

    It is different to Western countries where citizens and even foreign governments can challenge and scrutinise official information.

    The information that comes out of china should be taken with a massive pinch of salt; it is potentially subject to unlimited political interference. People get continuously fooled by this situation because it is unlike anything they have known. I was fooled myself for many years.

    It is a situation which we are basically powerless to do anything about.
  • PB is in danger of disappearing up its own arse. Yer demanding a place at government pressers and every fucker is an expert in everything. And the last thread was a shocker. Not the header, but the way that you all decided the coppers are all corrupt, lazy, incompetent bastards. Not PBs finest hour.

    I didn't.

    I defended resolutely North Wales police action and that it has wide support here in North Wales
    Frankly, anybody who willingly travels to North Wales deserves arresting.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    A politico-philosophical issue I've been thinking about but am struggling to put into words:

    How much are either governments or people in control in their countries and how much is under control of 'bureaucratic management' ?

    And is this exposed under a crisis such as what we have now ?

    Trotsky wrote about this issue:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state

    I imagine HMG will be trying to divert the blame for the testing fiasco onto the civil service as much as possible.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569
    glw said:

    tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    It's entirely possible that we screwed up AND China lied. You don't have to pick sides, both can and may well be true.
    Probable.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.
    I did my major, pandemic 400 quid Waitrose shop on the 8th Feb....I wished I'd sold a bit of my stock at the same time, but at least I'm not worrying about loo paper now...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Official Chinese diplomatic accounts have also been promoting conspiracy theories about the source of the virus.

    https://twitter.com/AmbassadeChine/status/1242011628608118786
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.
    You do realise it is quite possible to do both? Or several things? You can criticize China (fiercely) for their lies and evasions, even as you also criticize the UK government for their shite testing rate, the EU for its bumbling, Trump for his idiocy, and so on, and so forth.

    What is this idea that only one criticism is allowed at any one time? Absurd
    I'd not seen that idea mentioned until now, by you.
  • glw said:

    tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    It's entirely possible that we screwed up AND China lied. You don't have to pick sides, both can and may well be true.
    You are correct, in principle. The problem is that the 'China must be brought to heel' faction are claiming that Chinas inadequacies are a sufficient excuse for the failings of their own governments.
    These people are saying explicitly that it's all China's fault, we ourselves are free from blame.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    They can detect the groundswell of anger bubbling up on this testing mess?
    Possibly but this is fast moving and in the next few weeks when testing is much improved they will find something else because the right wing papers hate the lockdown no matter how important it is
    I don't think it is the lockdown.

    I've been supportive of Boris and the Government so far but the lack of clarity on testing (2,000 out of 550,000 NHS staff??) is very friustrating, even to the Mail and Telegraph and their readers. Boris is in danger of losing the confidence of the public. If he does the lockdown is over in practice.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    This is rewriting history. The world was sufficiently warned, whether the 'true' number of deaths/cases was underreported or not. This is just a cheap copout for those who failed to respond to the facts more decisively.
    If I have a house with a massive fire hazard that despite decades of being warned eventually catches fire and burns the street down I can't be absolved of blame 'because they should have smelt the smoke'.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.
    Spare a thought for Brazil...


    "Bolsonaro, Isolated and Defiant, Dismisses Coronavirus Threat to Brazil

    President Jair Bolsonaro, who has called the virus a “measly cold,” is the sole major world leader continuing to question the merits of lockdown measures to fight the pandemic." (NY Times)
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Alok Sharma business Secretary. Did today's briefing.
    Dear dear dear. Scraping the barrel.
    Reese Mogg and Patel still to have a turn...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.
    Spare a thought for Brazil...


    "Bolsonaro, Isolated and Defiant, Dismisses Coronavirus Threat to Brazil

    President Jair Bolsonaro, who has called the virus a “measly cold,” is the sole major world leader continuing to question the merits of lockdown measures to fight the pandemic." (NY Times)
    The PM of Sweden says hello
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Foxy said:

    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.

    8 weeks ago almost everyone on here was telling eadric to give it a rest. He was in fact quite right, and everyone who doubted him was wrong.

    Virtually everybody thought "it's another SARS or MERS" and would soon blow over.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    Just to add - you do wonder if a lot of the media and print journalists are being paid through companies so particularly stand to lose if Sunak regularises the situation between the employed and self-employed.

    Nah
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    IshmaelZ said:

    Alok Sharma business Secretary. Did today's briefing.
    Dear dear dear. Scraping the barrel.
    Yes you are.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    The world was forewarned. You and I were discussing the threat here 8 weeks ago. We made our own preparations in our own ways, you with your hoarding and hideaway, me with a health kick and life insurance. Perhaps we are both considerably smarter and better informed than our government, but it is quite right to critique our governments preparations, or lack of.

    8 weeks ago almost everyone on here was telling eadric to give it a rest. He was in fact quite right, and everyone who doubted him was wrong.

    Virtually everybody thought "it's another SARS or MERS" and would soon blow over.
    Not 8 weeks ago. Go look.
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I assume you mean Freeview terrestial? Our BBC reception has been fine, and we're not in a strong signal area. Dave is another matter but it's always been flakey.

    I had a horrible dream the other night... I'd woken up to no TV or radio broadcast signal and no internet, no phones, nothing. Then I woke up for real in a blind panic - not nice!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited April 2020
    Barnesian said:

    Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    They can detect the groundswell of anger bubbling up on this testing mess?
    Possibly but this is fast moving and in the next few weeks when testing is much improved they will find something else because the right wing papers hate the lockdown no matter how important it is
    I don't think it is the lockdown.

    I've been supportive of Boris and the Government so far but the lack of clarity on testing (2,000 out of 550,000 NHS staff??) is very friustrating, even to the Mail and Telegraph and their readers. Boris is in danger of losing the confidence of the public. If he does the lockdown is over in practice.
    Or perhaps it is a media whipped up story because there is nothing else to write about?

    Most people don't engage with politics, even in a crisis. Of course it doesn't help that most of the criticism is also coming from the usual places - unresolved Remainers and journos who seem to tweet first and then retract later.

    I've spoken to about 25 people today (I was deliberately ringing around to check in with people and see if they needed anything) - all I encountered was people concerned about how this was affecting them, personally.

    Just like during an election, most people don't share even 1% of the engagement that most on here do.

    FWIW, I wouldn't be satisfied with relying on test results for NHS staff. Not only do tests suffer from a lag, but what about false negatives, and positives (where the medic concerned thinks it has conveyed immunity). Belt and braces, for them and those they treat - self isolation for the recommended period.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    PB is in danger of disappearing up its own arse. Yer demanding a place at government pressers and every fucker is an expert in everything. And the last thread was a shocker. Not the header, but the way that you all decided the coppers are all corrupt, lazy, incompetent bastards. Not PBs finest hour.

    I didn't.

    I defended resolutely North Wales police action and that it has wide support here in North Wales
    Frankly, anybody who willingly travels to North Wales deserves arresting.
    I don't know why I know this...but I think north Wales has the lowest average age for virginity in the UK..

    I was stranded in Canaerfon one evening...this was years ago...but it was an indication of what was coming (like Ibetha uncovered)...I had to walk back to our campsite after I lost my friends..and kids were literally shagging all over the place....
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    This is rewriting history. The world was sufficiently warned, whether the 'true' number of deaths/cases was underreported or not. This is just a cheap copout for those who failed to respond to the facts more decisively.
    Uh, no. The "correct response" to 3k deaths in China under a particular method for reporting might be a completely different "correct response" to hundreds of thousands of deaths under the same reporting regime. Fundamentally, if the facts were as the Chinese have officially said, it's totally possible that full lockdown in Europe was inadvisable.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    A politico-philosophical issue I've been thinking about but am struggling to put into words:

    How much are either governments or people in control in their countries and how much is under control of 'bureaucratic management' ?

    And is this exposed under a crisis such as what we have now ?

    Trotsky wrote about this issue:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state

    I imagine HMG will be trying to divert the blame for the testing fiasco onto the civil service as much as possible.
    I'm sure it will.

    But its also possible that the civil service IS to blame.

    Is the civil service a lumpen mass which continues rolling along doing the same things unless forced to change from above or ignored from below ?

    Or is it capable of its own initiative and doing things on its own and if so by what process and for whose benefit ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    eadric said:

    whunter said:

    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
    Crikey. OK.

    *torches*
    I ordered a camping lantern three days ago. Hoping Blacks can deliver before the lights go out.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    @egg and @tyson

    While I agree with much of what you say, what we are dealing with in terms of anger is an expression of anxiety, and that anxiety is driven by fear. There is a lot to fear at the moment. Loss of income, of freedom, of jobs, of lifestyle, of home, of family, and of life. A lot of that anger will be displaced onto convenient targets. I understand that, it is counterproductive but very human.

    China is not a “convenient target”, it literally is the source of this virus, and its tendency to lies and obfuscation is one big reason this virus is now so menacing

    if they had listened to the Wuhan doctors (now dead) rather than arresting them and silencing them, and if they had confessed the real mortality rate, rather than hiding it, the world would have been forewarned, months ago. They did not. China lied. And here we are.
    This is rewriting history. The world was sufficiently warned, whether the 'true' number of deaths/cases was underreported or not. This is just a cheap copout for those who failed to respond to the facts more decisively.
    Yes, I agree. It's clear that the first doctors to spot it were punished as troublemakers (I suspect by local bureaucrats used to suppressing bad news) - the Government has apologised for that, but it remains utterly shameful and typical of what happens in autocracies. But, once they realised what was happening they did get on it much more decisively than we did at the point when it was clear that it was a major threat (to be fair eadric was among the first here to raise a real alarm).

    I've been trying not to be critical in the middle of a national crisis, but it's just embarassing that politicians try to evade responsibility for failures by vaguely pointing at China. They should bloody well get on with the job of testing and curbing the virus and giving CLEAR guidance to the population on what we should and shouldn't do, and they can tell us later what they think about how other countries handled it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    whunter said:

    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
    A reliable source?
  • RobD said:

    whunter said:

    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
    A reliable source?
    If we get power cuts then all bets are off.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    eadric said:

    whunter said:

    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
    Crikey. OK.

    *torches*
    That’s because the high voltage engineers aren’t working so be perepated for power cuts.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Ok China has to take a lot of the blame for this pandemic. But it's a bit weird how everyone suddenly knows that the Chinese are hiding tens of thousands of deaths. This sudden realisation coincides with the understanding that the UK and the US are going to have more deaths than the 3k so far admitted to in China. The timing is a bit suspicious.

    And last week it was all: the Germans are definitely cheating on their death figures.

    Is there any actual evidence for these tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths?
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    RobD said:

    whunter said:

    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
    A reliable source?
    Staffing problems in the energy sector.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    A politico-philosophical issue I've been thinking about but am struggling to put into words:

    How much are either governments or people in control in their countries and how much is under control of 'bureaucratic management' ?

    And is this exposed under a crisis such as what we have now ?

    Trotsky wrote about this issue:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state

    I imagine HMG will be trying to divert the blame for the testing fiasco onto the civil service as much as possible.
    I'm sure it will.

    But its also possible that the civil service IS to blame.

    Is the civil service a lumpen mass which continues rolling along doing the same things unless forced to change from above or ignored from below ?

    Or is it capable of its own initiative and doing things on its own and if so by what process and for whose benefit ?
    It's a collection of individuals - many bright, some stupid, most trying their hardest to do the right thing.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    On topic: the debate about the trade-off between people dying of Covid and people dying of economic damage (i.e. from the effects of the resultant poverty, having fewer resources to spend long term on health, higher suicide rates, and so on) has already started, and the voices of disquiet will grow louder the longer that lockdown (i.e. economic nuclear winter) continues.

    The Government can plausibly get away with the current three week period of restrictions, and another three weeks seems reasonably likely after that (because the review of the first three coincides with the peak in deaths currently forecast by the scientists.) That gets us to around the end of April. After that you'd think that some kind of relaxation would be on the cards, even if it's gradual.

    People, and especially businesses, need some glimmer of hope that a state resembling normality will be restored over the next few months, and that we're not going to be enduring this exact same miserable slog for years.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    glw said:

    tyson said:

    eadric said:

    tyson said:

    Can I have a plea for all the anti Chinese conspiracy theorists to stay clear tonight and let a sensible discussion prevail....

    No.

    China lied from the beginning and is still lying. The disease started in China because of their pretty disgusting habit of eating wild animals in wet markets.

    Denying this is futile. Indeed, China’s lies are one reason this plague will now shatter the world economy and kill 100,000s of people. Denying it isn’t just futile it is WRONG.

    They must, after this is done, be held to account.
    Nuke the fuckers....



    Maybe the 'China, China, China' schtick would be more convincing if it wasn't directed by those who are so obviously desperate to deflect the blame for their own erstwhile inactivity and ongoing inadequacy.
    It's entirely possible that we screwed up AND China lied. You don't have to pick sides, both can and may well be true.
    You are correct, in principle. The problem is that the 'China must be brought to heel' faction are claiming that Chinas inadequacies are a sufficient excuse for the failings of their own governments.
    These people are saying explicitly that it's all China's fault, we ourselves are free from blame.
    People will tend to come to a conclusion which suits their viewpoint.

    For example current events reveal the unsustainability of the Osbrowne consumer economy which amazingly is something I've been pointing out for years.
  • Regarding the banks not lending out government backed loans, wasn't I raising this crisis last week?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    Noticed the lights nearly went off a couple of times where I am this evening.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    whunter said:

    RobD said:

    whunter said:

    eadric said:

    Unrelatedly, my family - in multiple places - is reporting issues getting a BBC signal.

    Anyone else had this?

    There were rumors that we might see power cuts, with so many staff falling ill.

    I've been advised by a reliable source to buy a few torches.
    A reliable source?
    Staffing problems in the energy sector.
    Ah, here's the story from a few days ago:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8170895/Britons-told-prepare-blackouts-keeping-torches-warm-clothes-nearby-coronavirus-crisis.html
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Mortimer said:

    Barnesian said:

    Extraordinary headlines for The Telegraph and The Mail, whom one would expect to be Boris's friends. What's brought all that on?

    They can detect the groundswell of anger bubbling up on this testing mess?
    Possibly but this is fast moving and in the next few weeks when testing is much improved they will find something else because the right wing papers hate the lockdown no matter how important it is
    I don't think it is the lockdown.

    I've been supportive of Boris and the Government so far but the lack of clarity on testing (2,000 out of 550,000 NHS staff??) is very friustrating, even to the Mail and Telegraph and their readers. Boris is in danger of losing the confidence of the public. If he does the lockdown is over in practice.
    Or perhaps it is a media whipped up story because there is nothing else to write about?

    Most people don't engage with politics, even in a crisis. Of course it doesn't help that most of the criticism is also coming from the usual places - unresolved Remainers and journos who seem to tweet first and then retract later.

    I've spoken to about 25 people today (I was deliberately ringing around to check in with people and see if they needed anything) - all I encountered was people concerned about how this was affecting them, personally.

    Just like during an election, most people don't share even 1% of the engagement that most on here do.

    FWIW, I wouldn't be satisfied with relying on test results for NHS staff. Not only do tests suffer from a lag, but what about false negatives, and positives (where the medic concerned thinks it has conveyed immunity). Belt and braces, for them and those they treat - self isolation for the recommended period.
    The lag on results isn't long. About 30% are false negatives (the swab misses the virus) so multiple tests are sometimes required. There are very few false positives as Foxy has explained. (You need a bit of virus RNA to get a positive).

    The value of the tests for NHS staff, particularly those with symptoms, is not just peace of mind, but the ability to get back to work if they are negative.
This discussion has been closed.