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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Taking liberties

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Taking liberties

One of the most enjoyable aspects of investigations is listening to miscreants’ excuses for their bad behaviour. The same ones came up regularly, so much so that interviews would have been much quicker if we’d had a poster on the wall of the excuses so they could just have pointed and said: “6” with a bit of “9”. The two most common, usually presented with the passive-aggressive mulishness of schoolboys, were: “Where does it say I can’t do that?” and “Show me where it says that I have to do that.” 

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,192
    First.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954

    isam said:
    Strange sort of depotism that allows morons like Hitchens to spout their mouth off freely.
    Ah... that's the clever bit about these despots.

    The smart critics of the government, we don't hear from them, right? That must mean that they're being supressed.

    Now, idiot critics, like Peter Hitchens, who discredit the whole idea of this being a despotic takeover of democratic government, well we hear from them.

    This all actually proves that, instead of Boris Johnson trying to (you know) save lives, this is all just the beginning of a coup that will leave him dictator for life, and us all stripped of our dignity and rights.
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Glad I skipped Stocky's guest slot.

    Grim grim grim news.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,551

    Glad I skipped Stocky's guest slot.

    Grim grim grim news.

    Stocky's guest slot was excellent.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good article, Miss Cyclefree.
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited April 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    Glad I skipped Stocky's guest slot.

    Grim grim grim news.

    Stocky's guest slot was excellent.
    I was working. Saw the header and couldn't be bothered with the rest of it.

    It's an excellent sanity tactic. I know what I know. It's a f-ing awful virus. Nothing, yet, can cure it. There's no vaccine. Only thing to do to stay alive is avoid people. We need to endure months of this.

    Ends.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Am unimpressed by Avon and Somerset Police setting up a "shop your neighbours" webpage for breaches of Covid 19 regulations.

    https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/report/breach-of-covid-19-restrictions/

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    ABZABZ Posts: 441

    Andy_JS said:

    Glad I skipped Stocky's guest slot.

    Grim grim grim news.

    Stocky's guest slot was excellent.
    I was working. Saw the header and couldn't be bothered with the rest of it.

    It's an excellent sanity tactic. I know what I know. It's a f-ing awful virus. Nothing, yet, can cure it. There's no vaccine. Only thing to do to stay alive is avoid people. We need to endure months of this.

    Ends.
    Come on!! We can see that Italy (two weeks or so ahead) is now over the worst in terms of new cases and even Spain said the number of people being admitted to ICUs was falling. What is thus clear (and I know @rcs1000 and I have mentioned this ad nauseam so will not repeat) is that lockdowns work in slowing the spread. It will be a really hard two weeks but the light at the end of the tunnel is there by looking at what is happening elsewhere.

    Now, what happens next! The big question is how we harness new testing regimes / clever social distancing (note: not lockdowns!) / new therapeutics / better understanding of what treatments work to make sure that the next wave of Covid-19 infections can be handled much better.

    It will require ingenuity and clever thinking but we can definitely do it!
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited April 2020
    ABZ agreed.

    We need a long, long, lockdown. Sadly the Spanish situation is not clearly showing the right trend.

    I'm afraid.
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    ABZABZ Posts: 441

    FPT (because I spent a while on the graph and it's now at the end of a thread):

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It would be interesting to see what these graphs look like on a per capita basis
    Well, looking at death rate per million and starting from the day after they reached 1.000 and taking data from worldmeters, here you go:


    We have a trio of fairly similar countries at the top - Spain, then Netherlands and Italy (Netherlands is marching very closely with Italy's per capita rate).

    Then a clump of other countries (France, ourselves, Switzerland and Sweden.

    Germany below that, and Norway at the very bottom (I included Norway because I wanted an easy comparison between Norway's suppression and Sweden's mitigation strategies).
    Thanks! This is a really useful plot and gives a good indication for how the epidemic is proceeding in different countries.
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    ABZABZ Posts: 441

    ABZ agreed.

    We need a long, long, lockdown. Sadly the Spanish situation is not clearly showing the right trend.

    I'm afraid.

    The Spanish trend is going in the right direction. Number of new cases is stabilising and, as the health minister has stated, new cases into the ICU are also slowing. There's no reason to think it won't follow Italy over the next week or so, with a few more days of stabilisation and then a decline in new cases.
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2020
    Data from Echo of Bergamo on number of deaths in the province of Bergam from municipal registers for March. You can select the municipality (they have data from 91 of them) from the graph (under "cerca il comune"). Blue column is the number of March 2019 deaths, column in yellow is March 2020's deaths, number in red at the bottom is the official Covid's deaths.

    www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/bergamo-citta/coronavirus-the-real-death-tool-4500-victims-in-one-month-in-the-province-of_1347414_11/
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    (I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    (I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)

    Interesting chart but I'm struggling to see the UK's line on it. I'm guessing its hidden behind another nation?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282

    Andy_JS said:

    Glad I skipped Stocky's guest slot.

    Grim grim grim news.

    Stocky's guest slot was excellent.
    I was working. Saw the header and couldn't be bothered with the rest of it.

    It's an excellent sanity tactic. I know what I know. It's a f-ing awful virus. Nothing, yet, can cure it. There's no vaccine. Only thing to do to stay alive is avoid people. We need to endure months of this.

    Ends.
    Good luck.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,684
    Scott_xP said:
    This is piece is written entirely from the American point of view. No thought whatsoever for the way they might be speading this in Mexico, and oher countries which are allowing them in, without any checks.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    Excellent article (I realise it has been brewing in your mind for some time, through your posts).

    A curiosity is why they neglected to add a "once a day" to the exercise restrictions in England. Enforceability? Never seemed to have stopped them before.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972
    Ms Cyclefree, I suggest that one reason for people 'breaking curfew' is because the police are no longer regarded as 'one of us'.
    Possibly, of course, that's a middle class attitude; other categories of Brits have rarely regarded the police in that light. The kindly 'clip round the ear and tell your Dad' bobby was, I suspect, to many people a fiction.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,940
    Advertisers are pulling their spending left right and centre anyway.

    Who wants to advertise at a time when the shops are closed and even online people are dramatically reining in their spending.

    It's not just journalism, there will be a lot fewer people employed in the advertising industry in the next few months time.
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    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is piece is written entirely from the American point of view. No thought whatsoever for the way they might be speading this in Mexico, and oher countries which are allowing them in, without any checks.
    Incredible that we are still allowing flights in from the USA and the passengers on them to enter the country unchecked.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,956
    edited April 2020
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245370329595367427

    Surely a more pressing question is are the tests actually, valid working, reliable tests for this disease..
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    kyf_100 said:

    It's not just journalism, there will be a lot fewer people employed in the advertising industry in the next few months time.

    It will be interesting to see the impact on Google and Facebook.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,956
    kyf_100 said:

    Advertisers are pulling their spending left right and centre anyway.

    Who wants to advertise at a time when the shops are closed and even online people are dramatically reining in their spending.

    It's not just journalism, there will be a lot fewer people employed in the advertising industry in the next few months time.
    As I've said over the past few days, the business world is going to look very different when things start up again. For one thing a lot of people are going to be focussed on saving for the next rainy day.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814

    (I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)

    Interesting chart but I'm struggling to see the UK's line on it. I'm guessing its hidden behind another nation?
    It was hiding behind Switzerland and has just crossed tracks to hide behind France
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245370329595367427

    Surely a more pressing question is are the tests actually, valid working, reliable tests for this disease..

    We're getting the antibody test in the coming week? :o This better not be more Peston bollocks.
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    matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited April 2020
    On the past thread BigRich posted this
    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1245029539459235843?s=20

    Probably a good idea to do some wider testing to get a clearer idea of the spread. I'm not sure what the age specification will be in this context, and I'm not sure whether a nationwide sample base will be practical.

    Our authorities have chosen a different approach. They are testing Gangelt, a small municipality in close proximity to Heinsberg, our (chronologically) second cluster. The town and surrounding rural area have population of 12,000. With the help from a polling company (!) 1,000 people have been picked as a representative sample and have been invited to take the test (under German law they cannot be compelled to do so, authorities have to ask for compliance).
    The idea seems to be that a local, limited sample size (but only a few miles from a hotspot of infection) will give a more reliable picture of community transmission. Other, similar setups are already in preparation in other Bundesländer.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709
    edited April 2020
    I noticed the traffic on the road outside my house last Sunday was similar to a Sunday normal. No doubt some were on the way to essential work; others were caring for vulnerable friends, family and so on; a few may be shopping although this is the centre of town and there are plenty supermarkets in walking distance.

    Point is, probably most of these people were breaking the social distancing requirements imposed on the population to slow the epidemic. I don't want the police to be issuing fines like confetti, but I am in favour of them reminding citizens what their obligations are, in the same way they might talk to an unruly neighbour or break up a spontaneous large gathering of youths. The choice isn't just between heavy-handedness and doing nothing.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.
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    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    FF43 said:

    If anyone is still interested in why Germany manages to test vastly more people despite facing the same global shortages of chemicals as the UK, this is a good summary.

    It's complicated. Top line summary: Germany is more on the ball than we are. The chemical shortage is part of the mix however

    https://reaction.life/why-is-germany-able-to-test-for-coronavirus-so-much-more-than-the-uk/

    That's an exalant artical thanks for sharing it.

    I recommend reading the whole thing, but what I take away, (yes because it backs up my pre-held belief LOL) is that the privit secter when involved can and will achieve amazing things very quickly. in the US and here the CDC and Public Heath England, wanted a monopoly, on testing and then could not cope.

    The NHS is full of lots of wonderful people who are highly skilled, working exceptionally hard and at the moment brave, but the organisation stretcher is rubbish.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,551
    edited April 2020
    "The coronavirus may sink the cruise-ship business

    The industry has few friends and its main customers, the elderly, may shun it for good" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/business/2020/03/31/the-coronavirus-may-sink-the-cruise-ship-business
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Some think Cyclefree is a bit over the top on this subject and the police, but I don't think that is so as it is perfectly possible to not be excessive and be correct, and most can be.

    But then I have a bit of a bugbear about people treating guidance as law in any case, which even if the guidance is good cannot have the same level of authority behind it. Discussing this with someone today it was noted the police can be a little overenthusiastic in interpreting what has been said rather than written. Not solely their fault, as the header notes, but procedures and rules are important even if difficult times.

    Point 4 is interesting though, as legislation often makes reference to having regard to any guidance issued by a secretary of state, so why didn't it state that.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    RobD said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245370329595367427

    Surely a more pressing question is are the tests actually, valid working, reliable tests for this disease..

    We're getting the antibody test in the coming week? :o This better not be more Peston bollocks.
    From his article, he makes a leap about using them for diagnosis of current infection and then is concerned by the fact that un-named people at Public Health England are skeptical as to whether they are good tests or not.

    Given the Spanish experience....
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,940
    Infamy, infamy...

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    TGOHF666 said:
    Doesn't matter. China's friends will not believe it, or profess not to believe it, even if it is true. It's opponents will believe it, on the not unreasonable basis that brutal authoritarian dictatorships are not known for their honesty, even if there is or were not a smoking gun.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I enjoyed this article by @Cyclefree more than any other that she has written, and not just because I agree with so much of it. Brava!
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    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    Scott_xP said:
    Stupid of them, but they won't care too much because 'it's okay for young people'. Meanwhile everyone older than them that they've come into contact with has been put in danger. This will only get better if those in their twenties and younger are made to realise that they are one of the prime reasons that it is spreading.
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    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kyf_100 said:

    Infamy, infamy...

    Sounds like China is broken...
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    kyf_100 said:

    Advertisers are pulling their spending left right and centre anyway.

    Who wants to advertise at a time when the shops are closed and even online people are dramatically reining in their spending.

    It's not just journalism, there will be a lot fewer people employed in the advertising industry in the next few months time.
    I noticed in our local newspaper today all the Estate Agents adverts have gone and I cannot ever recall that, even at Christmas. The weekly revenue from Estate Agents to the local press was huge, and add in the lost car adverts I doubt many of these titles will last long, sadly
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    Whilst I think those are fears that should not be dismissed, police over interpreting their own powers is not something that came in with the current government even if they are indeed taking a cue from it. Quite often it seems to be be based on just assuming power exists or that advice is law, without checking it properly. Though I did work with an ex-copper who stated, seemingly genuinely, that it should not be legal for people to argue with police officers. Hopefully a rare case.

    It's funny as the few senior police officers I know are very thoughtful and conscientious.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,168

    (I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)

    It's an excellent chart, thank you. Only suggestions I would make would be to plot the logarithm of the per million rate, and I'd be interested in seeing the US and Belgium (but the chart is already crowded, so difficult).
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709
    BigRich said:

    FF43 said:

    If anyone is still interested in why Germany manages to test vastly more people despite facing the same global shortages of chemicals as the UK, this is a good summary.

    It's complicated. Top line summary: Germany is more on the ball than we are. The chemical shortage is part of the mix however

    https://reaction.life/why-is-germany-able-to-test-for-coronavirus-so-much-more-than-the-uk/

    That's an exalant artical thanks for sharing it.

    I recommend reading the whole thing, but what I take away, (yes because it backs up my pre-held belief LOL) is that the privit secter when involved can and will achieve amazing things very quickly. in the US and here the CDC and Public Heath England, wanted a monopoly, on testing and then could not cope.

    The NHS is full of lots of wonderful people who are highly skilled, working exceptionally hard and at the moment brave, but the organisation stretcher is rubbish.
    Basically the Germans started earlier, moved faster and were better coordinated than we were. There are some structural reasons for this. I think what it shows is that marginal advantages can add up to a big difference when there are enough of them.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,182
    edited April 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Expected but very sad. That's Roger finished on 20 slams then.

    On which topic, for people who like tennis and Fed and have never read it, one of the great sporting essays. "Roger Federer as Religious Experience" -

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20federer.html
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    Whilst I think those are fears that should not be dismissed, police over interpreting their own powers is not something that came in with the current government even if they are indeed taking a cue from it. Quite often it seems to be be based on just assuming power exists or that advice is law, without checking it properly. Though I did work with an ex-copper who stated, seemingly genuinely, that it should not be legal for people to argue with police officers. Hopefully a rare case.

    It's funny as the few senior police officers I know are very thoughtful and conscientious.
    Walter Wolfgang was some way down the slippery slope. It's nothing new.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    RobD said:
    And Iraq was responsible for 9/11

    Nothing to do with Saudi Arabia.

    Sorry just binge watched the leaning tower can highly recommend it.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
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    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    And yet they have public support.

    Round here there is virtual unanimous support for their actions though the goats in Llandudno are a bit unruly
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:
    Strange sort of depotism that allows morons like Hitchens to spout their mouth off freely.
    Ah... that's the clever bit about these despots.

    The smart critics of the government, we don't hear from them, right? That must mean that they're being supressed.

    Now, idiot critics, like Peter Hitchens, who discredit the whole idea of this being a despotic takeover of democratic government, well we hear from them.

    This all actually proves that, instead of Boris Johnson trying to (you know) save lives, this is all just the beginning of a coup that will leave him dictator for life, and us all stripped of our dignity and rights.
    I'm not scared, I had little dignity to begin with.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    kle4 said:

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    Whilst I think those are fears that should not be dismissed, police over interpreting their own powers is not something that came in with the current government even if they are indeed taking a cue from it. Quite often it seems to be be based on just assuming power exists or that advice is law, without checking it properly. Though I did work with an ex-copper who stated, seemingly genuinely, that it should not be legal for people to argue with police officers. Hopefully a rare case.

    It's funny as the few senior police officers I know are very thoughtful and conscientious.
    "who stated, seemingly genuinely, that it should not be legal for people to argue with police officers"

    Standard belief among police officers who i've met....
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887

    FPT (because I spent a while on the graph and it's now at the end of a thread):

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It would be interesting to see what these graphs look like on a per capita basis
    Well, looking at death rate per million and starting from the day after they reached 1.000 and taking data from worldmeters, here you go:


    We have a trio of fairly similar countries at the top - Spain, then Netherlands and Italy (Netherlands is marching very closely with Italy's per capita rate).

    Then a clump of other countries (France, ourselves, Switzerland and Sweden.

    Germany below that, and Norway at the very bottom (I included Norway because I wanted an easy comparison between Norway's suppression and Sweden's mitigation strategies).
    That's a great diagram, thank you.

    The most interesting curve there is the Netherlands. Spain and Italy both famously hit the capacity ceiling and deaths spiralled for a week or two. But I don't remember the Netherlands having the same problem. I though the problem there was following the "herd immunity stratedy" rather than "almost lock down" like most of their European neighbours.

    Another "curio" is that France is in the UK group, whereas I though that parts of France were close to capacity.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    Whilst I think those are fears that should not be dismissed, police over interpreting their own powers is not something that came in with the current government even if they are indeed taking a cue from it. Quite often it seems to be be based on just assuming power exists or that advice is law, without checking it properly. Though I did work with an ex-copper who stated, seemingly genuinely, that it should not be legal for people to argue with police officers. Hopefully a rare case.

    It's funny as the few senior police officers I know are very thoughtful and conscientious.
    Walter Wolfgang was some way down the slippery slope. It's nothing new.
    Bollocks to Blair
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Incidentally, chap I know slightly (Toby Frost, author of the Space Captain Smith series) has made his fantasy e-book Up To The Throne free on Kindle for a few days.
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
    I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate.
    Make of that what you will.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    And yet they have public support.

    Round here there is virtual unanimous support for their actions though the goats in Llandudno are a bit unruly
    That's kind of a separate point. If people support harsher measures than the law explicitly requires all well and good, the advice that is good should be followed, but that doesn't mean people should be placed in fear of fines or other punishments, or the threat of such, where this is not actually required by law.

    If people flout guidance they may rightly be shamed for that, but they should follow it because it is felt right to do so, not from an incorrect view of what is legal. There has been confusion on that, I'm not sure I have it all 100%, but that people might support the intention of the police in this emergency that doesn't mean all they have said and done, even if supported, is appropriate.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    Bollocks. The police are behaving in the way that they have always behaved. I can remember when they were completely unashamed about using the PTA to round up young black men.

    As far as the police are concerned any law is there to be used as much as they can get away with, whenever they want to use it.

    Twas ever thus.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Anyone got a link to that handy "The UK is 2 weeks behind Italy" tweet?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    If you don't like the police, move to Surrey. The police here do a very good job of appearing to not exist, which is quite good at times like this.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245370329595367427

    Surely a more pressing question is are the tests actually, valid working, reliable tests for this disease..

    If not why did we buy them in such numbers and talk up their game changing nature.

    I tend to agree PHE are useless
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Alistair said:

    Anyone got a link to that handy "The UK is 2 weeks behind Italy" tweet?

    Still lagging behind, seems to be stable at 15.
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    Alistair said:

    Anyone got a link to that handy "The UK is 2 weeks behind Italy" tweet?

    https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/1241702344095682565
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245370329595367427

    Surely a more pressing question is are the tests actually, valid working, reliable tests for this disease..

    We're getting the antibody test in the coming week? :o This better not be more Peston bollocks.
    From his article, he makes a leap about using them for diagnosis of current infection and then is concerned by the fact that un-named people at Public Health England are skeptical as to whether they are good tests or not.

    Given the Spanish experience....
    Nooooooooobody expects the Spanish Experience.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,192
    Anyone read the Thucydides's Trap?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    (I omitted China on the judgement that the data wasn't reliable, and South Korea because it was way, way out on its own and we already know it's doing far better than anyone else)

    Interesting chart but I'm struggling to see the UK's line on it. I'm guessing its hidden behind another nation?
    It was hiding behind Switzerland and has just crossed tracks to hide behind France
    Thanks I see it crossing over now!

    Am I reading it correctly that the USA is only on Day 10 and is just above where Switzerland (and presumably us) was on Day 10? I'm surprised its that high.

    Also what's Day One in your graph?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Some strong headers today. Forceful, punchy, and likely to provoke intense discussion from multiple angles. Kudos.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
    Absolutely, however, I'd take their word over that of the CCP any day of the week. For the same reasons I would not allow Huawei into our 5G network and would want them out of the 4G network.

    China as a nation is not to be trusted and if one good thing comes out of this it is hopefully a realignment of the industrialised world to exclude China from essential and sensitive supply chains.
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    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
    The one thing that is going to happen is Trump and the US will seek to make Chin responsible and I expect that many nations may join in. I doubt Huawei will survive this in the UK and going forward a lot more will be manufactured at home using non China components
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502


    The official Chinese line...

    Is the n a typo ?
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    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    dr_spyn said:

    Am unimpressed by Avon and Somerset Police setting up a "shop your neighbours" webpage for breaches of Covid 19 regulations.

    https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/report/breach-of-covid-19-restrictions/

    People will lap it up
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Alistair said:

    Anyone got a link to that handy "The UK is 2 weeks behind Italy" tweet?

    https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/1241702344095682565
    So if I'm reading it correct we should be on 2503 if we were trending Italy still?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    The police need to focus on activities that could materially affect the effectiveness of the lockdown - ASOS/PLT warehouse workers in Sheffield unable to abide by distancing rules at work and not go after people trying to take their dog for a walk in Buxton.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    edited April 2020

    Alistair said:

    Anyone got a link to that handy "The UK is 2 weeks behind Italy" tweet?

    https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/1241702344095682565
    So if I'm reading it correct we should be on 2503 if we were trending Italy still?
    We're on 2352, which is pretty close.
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    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I have to admit that I'm still somewhat under the impression of the role the US intelligence community played in ridding Saddam Hussein of his WMD (and his lfe) and subsequently bringing peace and democracy to the Middle East.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    edited April 2020

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I am not 1,000% sure I would take the US intelligence community's word always for everything. They have one aim and it is not to inform the world of the truth.
    The one thing that is going to happen is Trump and the US will seek to make Chin responsible and I expect that many nations may join in. I doubt Huawei will survive this in the UK and going forward a lot more will be manufactured at home using non China components
    China will be responsible to no one apart from China. Same as every other country and certainly every other superpower.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I have to admit that I'm still somewhat under the impression of the role the US intelligence community played in ridding Saddam Hussein of his WMD (and his lfe) and subsequently bringing peace and democracy to the Middle East.
    Tbf to them that was Blair.
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    kle4 said:

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    And yet they have public support.

    Round here there is virtual unanimous support for their actions though the goats in Llandudno are a bit unruly
    That's kind of a separate point. If people support harsher measures than the law explicitly requires all well and good, the advice that is good should be followed, but that doesn't mean people should be placed in fear of fines or other punishments, or the threat of such, where this is not actually required by law.

    If people flout guidance they may rightly be shamed for that, but they should follow it because it is felt right to do so, not from an incorrect view of what is legal. There has been confusion on that, I'm not sure I have it all 100%, but that people might support the intention of the police in this emergency that doesn't mean all they have said and done, even if supported, is appropriate.
    Anyone driving into our national parks floating the law will have near 100% North Walians support for prosecution. The fury here with this behaviour is reflected through the local news and on social media

    The goats are the only ones with a free pass
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245370329595367427

    Surely a more pressing question is are the tests actually, valid working, reliable tests for this disease..

    If not why did we buy them in such numbers and talk up their game changing nature.

    I tend to agree PHE are useless
    The UK is developing similar tests, as are most countries with any significant medical research capability.

    The reason they were bought, I would imagine something on the lines of -

    (a) the Spanish test problems hadn't come to light when the contract was signed.
    (b) If a few million quid gets you a million tests, worth the risk of getting duff tests. You test the tests before you use them....
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I realise you are being snarky, but they are certainly more capable than the intelligence agencies of any other nation. Now the actual intelligence produced can be spun by politicians, but I've no doubt that the US is in a better position to judge what has really been happening in China than anyone else. It seems like that information was shared with the UK last week as well.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887
    BigRich said:

    FF43 said:

    If anyone is still interested in why Germany manages to test vastly more people despite facing the same global shortages of chemicals as the UK, this is a good summary.

    It's complicated. Top line summary: Germany is more on the ball than we are. The chemical shortage is part of the mix however

    https://reaction.life/why-is-germany-able-to-test-for-coronavirus-so-much-more-than-the-uk/

    That's an exalant artical thanks for sharing it.

    I recommend reading the whole thing, but what I take away, (yes because it backs up my pre-held belief LOL) is that the privit secter when involved can and will achieve amazing things very quickly. in the US and here the CDC and Public Heath England, wanted a monopoly, on testing and then could not cope.

    The NHS is full of lots of wonderful people who are highly skilled, working exceptionally hard and at the moment brave, but the organisation stretcher is rubbish.
    Whether the testing is done in the private or public sector is not really the point. The point is does the country have a plan in place to ramp up to 10,000 tests a day if suddenly required.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    I see the US intelligence also accuses other Nations of under reporting including friendly types like Egypt and Saudi.

    The section on Michael Gove has been redempted!!!
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
    I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate.
    Make of that what you will.
    Same WHO that can't say Taiwan without breaking out in a cold sweat?
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Incidentally, chap I know slightly (Toby Frost, author of the Space Captain Smith series) has made his fantasy e-book Up To The Throne free on Kindle for a few days.

    'Down to Gehenna, or up to the Throne,
    He travels the fastest who travels alone...'
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    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    I'd take the US intelligence community over the Chinese Communist party any day of the week. That you won't is more an indication on your character than how reliable US intelligence is.
    I have to admit that I'm still somewhat under the impression of the role the US intelligence community played in ridding Saddam Hussein of his WMD (and his lfe) and subsequently bringing peace and democracy to the Middle East.
    Tbf to them that was Blair.
    Yes, of course. Tone was not a stooge for the global front stage, he was the prime instigator.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    edited April 2020

    kle4 said:

    The current government has made curtailing judicial oversight of public authority a central plank of its programme. The police are simply taking their cue from government in this regard. The state is seeking to return to a medieval age where its word is the law.

    There is no way more calculated of bringing a law into disrepute than its rigid enforcement. The police seem determined to demonstrate that.

    And yet they have public support.

    Round here there is virtual unanimous support for their actions though the goats in Llandudno are a bit unruly
    That's kind of a separate point. If people support harsher measures than the law explicitly requires all well and good, the advice that is good should be followed, but that doesn't mean people should be placed in fear of fines or other punishments, or the threat of such, where this is not actually required by law.

    If people flout guidance they may rightly be shamed for that, but they should follow it because it is felt right to do so, not from an incorrect view of what is legal. There has been confusion on that, I'm not sure I have it all 100%, but that people might support the intention of the police in this emergency that doesn't mean all they have said and done, even if supported, is appropriate.
    Anyone driving into our national parks floating the law will have near 100% North Walians support for prosecution. The fury here with this behaviour is reflected through the local news and on social media

    The goats are the only ones with a free pass
    You seemed to have missed the thrust of my point which was about flouting guidance, which could not be prosecuted as though the law were being flouted, even if people support the (some) police view that it should be treated the same.

    Public fury will enable harder restrictions than warnings of potential law breaking which may not even be lawbreaking depending on the circumstances.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    I read the article and I tried relating what it said to my experiences here in Spain and also what I hear from friends and relatives back in the UK. I then pit those against the article and indeed the PB Community. Overwhelmingly, my experience is that people are frightened and worried - they are furious at those who flout the spirit of the lockdowns by seeking to 'get round it' because their particular situation is 'special'. They see such people as selfish. They are content to see the authorities enforce the lockdown to the fullness of their powers and are somewhat less concerned about the alleged abuses. Their priorities in the crisis are simply different. It will be interesting to see how the polling develops on this and indeed other Covid19 related issues. However, for me, I have few worries about a slide into a Police state on the back of this crisis.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    maaarsh said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    The US intelligence community is famous for its 'conclusions'. Envy of the world.
    Who in their right mind believes the Chinese statistics?
    I'm not sure whether anyone believes the entire body of Chinese statistics, but at the height of the outbreak in Wuhan the WHO sent fact finding missions who monitored what the Chinese were doing and they came to the conclusion that their reporting was adequate.
    Make of that what you will.
    Same WHO that can't say Taiwan without breaking out in a cold sweat?
    Says Republic of China on the passports :D
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. (Miss? Sorry, I forget) Blue, must admit I'm unfamiliar with that quote.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Anyone got a link to that handy "The UK is 2 weeks behind Italy" tweet?

    https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/1241702344095682565
    So if I'm reading it correct we should be on 2503 if we were trending Italy still?
    We're on 2352, which is pretty close.
    Yeah, it seems like we had approx 3 'low' days and certain people started to get very excited that the whole 2 week lag was blown out of the water.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,182

    I enjoyed this article by @Cyclefree more than any other that she has written, and not just because I agree with so much of it. Brava!

    Yes indeed. Top drawer. The only problem is that it's impossible to disagree with any of it. So where does that leave us?
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    So about 800 deaths tomorrow ?
This discussion has been closed.