This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Are all the trains packed? Have trains been reduced by 80%?
But what about part time newsagents who don’t sell milk but do sell orange juice and also run a part time milk float repair service which delivers lamb chops on a Tuesday to divorced vicars who share a guide dog with a retired gamekeeper called Frank ?
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
Is there a worse journalist on the media than Kay Burley
Full of her own importance, asking idiotic questions including trying to get Gove to admit hundreds of thousands could die
Perhaps it would help things if Mr Gove stated that hundreds of thousands could die... "That is what we are trying to avoid - stay in your homes..." etc.
It is handing out half-hearted statements and fuzzy guidance that confuses people.
Hundreds of thousands - how many in China and Worldwide so far
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Are all the trains packed? Have trains been reduced by 80%?
Some trains are packed and yes the trains have been slashed.
The train stations are largely empty. That's indicative that its the trains and not the people that are the issue.
When all this is over, those on the green-left will be thinking that if all this can be done to tackle the virus, surely we can do a hell of a lot more to tackle the climate emergency.
How much is this costing the economy again?
How much has the Earth recovered in just a few weeks? A massive reduction in pollution, in garbage in the oceans, etc. It demonstrates that we can save the planet.
Sorry but that is superficial bits and bobs. Atmospheric CO2 levels aren't impacted by this and the microplastics in the ocean will be there for a long, long time.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Question asked on BBC; if construction sites can carry on, what about building suppliers. My son-in-law works for a firm supplying, inter alia, masks. Originally for the construction industry, but apparently have a wider use now. Should he be at work.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
I don’t know. Neither do you. That’s the point. Right now the self-employed and zero hours workers have no choice but to carry on as normal, while a lot of businesses are not yet sure whether they are essential or not. Until there is clarity on these things, people will continue to travel. It could be that Khan did make a mistake in believing such clarity would be provided. It’s clear now, though, that the government must now get involved - either to order, and subsidise, additional transport, or to be much clearer about what is essential and what help will be available to the self-employed and those on zero hours work.
Out on my morning constitutional this morning there was an awful lot of white vans with various building service company logos heading off to work.
If the job is half finished I get it. Should companies be starting new jobs now?
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
But we have to live in the real world. China's national pride is HUGE. Taking a public pop is fine, but the commercial consequences on certain industries need to be fully appreciated. It is the same as the 'special relationship' we've had with America for several decades. In case you hadn't noticed, we don't step out of line there much either.
I would prefer to channel what will be China's obvious underlying guilt about coronavirus in a more positive way, trying to secure benefits for the UK in so doing.
We can't just switch off our economic relationship with China, of course. It's nice to think they'll feel guilty about this - but then look at what that regime is willing to engage in. What's a few thousand dead westerners next to that?
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
My work is trying to stay open (research labs, engineering type testing facilities). Lot of people who had been OK with that in the last week (with >>50% of us WFH) are now not OK with that. Suspect we will have to close and frankly i sympathise with the workers.
Any way, off to work, or dining room table as it used to be known. Wonder how many of my Year 11s are going to log on to my words of wisdom about revising for an exam they will not have to sit...
For me, the Year 11 figure was 40%. Year 13 was around 30%.
No idea what Year 12 will be like, but they should be doing coursework anyway.
My wife's primary school had 10% attendance yesterday and less expected today. Staffing levels have been significantly reduced accordingly.
Is there a worse journalist on the media than Kay Burley
Full of her own importance, asking idiotic questions including trying to get Gove to admit hundreds of thousands could die
Perhaps it would help things if Mr Gove stated that hundreds of thousands could die... "That is what we are trying to avoid - stay in your homes..." etc.
It is handing out half-hearted statements and fuzzy guidance that confuses people.
Hundreds of thousands - how many in China and Worldwide so far
Spanish flu killed millions.
Just because CoronaVirus has not killed hundreds of thousands does yet not mean it will not kill hundreds of thousands.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Are all the trains packed? Have trains been reduced by 80%?
Some trains are packed and yes the trains have been slashed.
The train stations are largely empty. That's indicative that its the trains and not the people that are the issue.
That is not an answer to the questions I asked. It could well be that we need more trains running in London, but it may also be that what we actually need is better control of those using them. We definitely need more government clarity. There is no doubt this will come soon enough.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
Precisely. It's no good the Government pulling its jackboots on and telling people off.
These people have no choice.
TfL should be suspending the Oyster cards of anyone not in a vital industry.
Yes! Although how does it know? In any case, Oyster cards are so passé; cool Londoners use ordinary contactless credit or debit cards now.
See the contactless limit is going up to £45 on the 1st April
Interesting, I didn't know that. There is no limit if you use mobile contactless but irritatingly despite having a watch that could work last time I checked none of my cards worked with Google Pay - which is stupid. The banks should all work with Google and Apple not try and get you on their apps.
The interesting bit is not what happens now, but what happens afterwards. It’s hard to see how we go back to where we were domestically and internationally. How the aftermath is handled is what will truly define this government. We are all going to be paying more tax - but who will pay and how much, will services be cut at the same time? What role will the state have in controlling our infrastructure? Internationally, can we still do business with an increasingly crazed Trump presiding over an increasingly divided US, is China a country we can ever trust, will the EU and UK find common cause as they deal with these two challenges, could that see both sides become more realistic as they negotiate an FTA? And so on and so on. Currently, the government has very few choices. It is doing what has to be done. Looking at Trump and the other populists, we should be grateful for that, of course. However, once the crisis has past there are going to be huge calls to make where there are plenty of choices. That’s when we’ll find out more.
We just might have changed shopping for ever. Can't go down to PCWorld for electrical, but can buy them from Amazon (etc). Cafe's, restaurants might re-open but will many shops?
Can you? I am in the market for a new laptop. Can I buy it online? My son is wanting a series of books for his school. Will they arrive? This morning we have got word that an Amazon delivery has been dispatched. How is this possible? Are Amazon workers "key workers"? How do they get to work?
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
But we have to live in the real world. China's national pride is HUGE. Taking a public pop is fine, but the commercial consequences on certain industries need to be fully appreciated. It is the same as the 'special relationship' we've had with America for several decades. In case you hadn't noticed, we don't step out of line there much either.
I would prefer to channel what will be China's obvious underlying guilt about coronavirus in a more positive way, trying to secure benefits for the UK in so doing.
We can't just switch off our economic relationship with China, of course. It's nice to think they'll feel guilty about this - but then look at what that regime is willing to engage in. What's a few thousand dead westerners next to that?
I don't have the answers. All I know is that public excoriation of the regime and China in general (don't forget it was general habits that caused this spread) will have a huge backlash and cost our economy tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions, when it will be fragile enough already. I would prefer to try to find a way for China to give us lots of money in a way which allows it to save face. I have no idea what this way is. Maybe they can build Boris's bridge free.
And ban those markets (presuming that hasn't already happened).
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
This is all absolutely true. It's also true that it's done more to relieve human poverty and sickness than any other organization in the history of the universe. Modern China is just an epic, monstrous, astonishing, incredible, evil, wonderful, terrifying phenomenon.
If you've got some leverage over them I'd have thought were more useful ways to deploy it than badgering them over their treatment of pangolins, since that's something they'll be motivated to look at already, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When all this is over, those on the green-left will be thinking that if all this can be done to tackle the virus, surely we can do a hell of a lot more to tackle the climate emergency.
How much is this costing the economy again?
How much has the Earth recovered in just a few weeks? A massive reduction in pollution, in garbage in the oceans, etc. It demonstrates that we can save the planet.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
I don’t know. Neither do you. That’s the point. Right now the self-employed and zero hours workers have no choice but to carry on as normal, while a lot of businesses are not yet sure whether they are essential or not. Until there is clarity on these things, people will continue to travel. It could be that Khan did make a mistake in believing such clarity would be provided. It’s clear now, though, that the government must now get involved - either to order, and subsidise, additional transport, or to be much clearer about what is essential and what help will be available to the self-employed and those on zero hours work.
You're right we don't know, but the passenger numbers are down dramatically and train stations and concorses (where you can make comparisons) are empty. So why aren't trains? Probably because they slashed the numbers of trains available.
Given overall passenger numbers are down 80% I think its safe to say many non-essential businesses are doing the right thing.
I am sure they are. That still leaves those that aren’t - and Those on zero hours contracts and the self-employed.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
When all this is over, those on the green-left will be thinking that if all this can be done to tackle the virus, surely we can do a hell of a lot more to tackle the climate emergency.
How much is this costing the economy again?
How much has the Earth recovered in just a few weeks? A massive reduction in pollution, in garbage in the oceans, etc. It demonstrates that we can save the planet.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
They've been caught out by the speed of the spread in London in particular. Here in Scotland we have 14 people dead so far. Individual tragedies no doubt but not much of a reason to bring the whole nation to a halt. 3-4 weeks from our peak whilst London looks more like 1-2. If anything we are locking down too soon. We are probably but it would just be too complicated to have different rules for different parts of the country. I've no complaints if some confusion about how this is supposed to work.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
They've been caught out by the speed of the spread in London in particular. Here in Scotland we have 14 people dead so far. Individual tragedies no doubt but not much of a reason to bring the whole nation to a halt. 3-4 weeks from our peak whilst London looks more like 1-2. If anything we are locking down too soon. We are probably but it would just be too complicated to have different rules for different parts of the country. I've no complaints if some confusion about how this is supposed to work.
I was all for stuff just happening in London but it would result in people fleeing the capital.
Boris Johnson’s first act as mayor of London was to ban drinking alcohol on the tube. He’s not that libertarian.
And the communist Bob Crow lambasted the decision. Though I think Boris was subsequently vindicated if a reduction on anti-social behaviour on public transport is your thing.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
I don’t know. Neither do you. That’s the point. Right now the self-employed and zero hours workers have no choice but to carry on as normal, while a lot of businesses are not yet sure whether they are essential or not. Until there is clarity on these things, people will continue to travel. It could be that Khan did make a mistake in believing such clarity would be provided. It’s clear now, though, that the government must now get involved - either to order, and subsidise, additional transport, or to be much clearer about what is essential and what help will be available to the self-employed and those on zero hours work.
Why would they cut transport though? I presume train drivers will get paid either way, their job doesn’t involve any physical interaction with anyone else at all, and we want more space between people on trains, so best there’s more of them. I can’t see why they’d think to run a reduced service
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
Boris should overrule Sadiq Khan on tube trains if he won't reverse his policy - he's been all too happy to play politics with this crisis, he doesn't really deserve the courtesy of doing differently.
I'm concerned that the effect of these shutdowns around the world might eventually turn out to have caused more damage to society than the virus itself.
I'm concerned that the effect of these shutdowns around the world might eventually turn out to have caused more damage to society than the virus itself.
I'm concerned that the effect of these shutdowns around the world might eventually turn out to have caused more damage to society than the virus itself.
Slightly odd to call this 'the nanny state.' It was either lockdown or sacrificing 4% of the population.
Personally I think Johnson hasn't gone far enough. He should put troops on the streets and enforce it with martial law for the next 3 weeks.
Sometimes you have to restrict freedom in order to protect it.
And what are the troops going to do? Shoot people?
Do we even have enough troops?
About 70,000 regulars of whom half are fat blanket stackers. You'd lose unit cohesion and have mass desertions if they were ordered to fire on UK civvies I think. It's not like bringing peace and prosperity to Iraq where desertion was hard. The troops will be able to get back to their families by hopping on a National Express bus.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
They've been caught out by the speed of the spread in London in particular. Here in Scotland we have 14 people dead so far. Individual tragedies no doubt but not much of a reason to bring the whole nation to a halt. 3-4 weeks from our peak whilst London looks more like 1-2. If anything we are locking down too soon. We are probably but it would just be too complicated to have different rules for different parts of the country. I've no complaints if some confusion about how this is supposed to work.
Actually I think it's overdue. A lot of people who will now die in London could have been saved if it had been done two weeks ago. But I have relatives in rural Lincolnshire and Devon where the disease has barely touched so far, and I really want them safe from it spreading. Surely the same applies to Scotland?
Essential workers and builders. It’s an odd policy.
I suspect part of it is public order related. You have tens of thousands, maybe more, of young, mainly Eastern European men crammed ten a penny into "basic" accommodation in London and with very limited means of getting home given the disruption with flights. They already can't go to the pub with the new measures. Imagine if you then took away their job, leaving them with no money and plenty of time on their hands. I suspect, through desperation on their part, you would see crime rise
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
Cobblers.
Have you no sole?
No, that was my upper limit.
Is that the last of them?
Well, being treed up here, I've got to do something.
I'm concerned that the effect of these shutdowns around the world might eventually turn out to have caused more damage to society than the virus itself.
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
They've been caught out by the speed of the spread in London in particular. Here in Scotland we have 14 people dead so far. Individual tragedies no doubt but not much of a reason to bring the whole nation to a halt. 3-4 weeks from our peak whilst London looks more like 1-2. If anything we are locking down too soon. We are probably but it would just be too complicated to have different rules for different parts of the country. I've no complaints if some confusion about how this is supposed to work.
The government could have done a lot more with communication. It hasn't made use, for example, of free Facebook advertising that has been offered.
I'm not going to be super-critical. While these are life and death decisions, any of us would struggle with the immense and rapid calls that are being required of the government right now. Being right slowly is as lethal as being wrong quickly.
Now that Australia's mortality rate (deaths/confirmed cases) is lower than Germany's, I fully expect the posters who were claiming that Germany was cheating, that something funny was going on, that the Germans were hiding Covid-19 deaths or whatever, will now make the same claims about Australia
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
No.
I have contacted the moderators.
Let's try not to get tetchy with one another. This is a great forum. Play fair everyone.
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
They've been caught out by the speed of the spread in London in particular. Here in Scotland we have 14 people dead so far. Individual tragedies no doubt but not much of a reason to bring the whole nation to a halt. 3-4 weeks from our peak whilst London looks more like 1-2. If anything we are locking down too soon. We are probably but it would just be too complicated to have different rules for different parts of the country. I've no complaints if some confusion about how this is supposed to work.
Actually I think it's overdue. A lot of people who will now die in London could have been saved if it had been done two weeks ago. But I have relatives in rural Lincolnshire and Devon where the disease has barely touched so far, and I really want them safe from it spreading. Surely the same applies to Scotland?
Did you miss that Devon was the largest early outbreak?
I'm concerned that the effect of these shutdowns around the world might eventually turn out to have caused more damage to society than the virus itself.
Slightly odd to call this 'the nanny state.' It was either lockdown or sacrificing 4% of the population.
Personally I think Johnson hasn't gone far enough. He should put troops on the streets and enforce it with martial law for the next 3 weeks. Sometimes you have to restrict freedom in order to protect it.
Yes agree it's slightly odd and I think it's a misunderstanding of libertarian or classical Liberal philosophy to think they're opposed to all government intervention. The Jaws beach closure is an interesting comparison as you could tell people there is a risk of sharks and you swim at your own risk, but that risk doesn't have the same impact on other people. Since people don't know whether they may be carrying and transmitting the virus then the current situation is more like stopping people running down the street while carrying scissors - you might wish you were free to do so since you accept the risk you might fall and hurt yourself but authorities ban it since you might well hit and harm other people. https://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/2020/03/are-there-any-libertarians-in-pandemic.html
Christopher Snowdon is a proper anti-nanny state, anti-"public health industry" libertarian and even he's onside for this one!
How can libertarians ever support mandatory quarantine and nationwide lockdowns?
Quite easily, as it happens. I can’t speak for all libertarians (who can?) but I see libertarianism as applied economics. The government should leave businesses alone unless there are demonstrable market failures and it should leave people alone unless they are doing direct harm to others.
In case it is not obvious, infecting somebody with a potentially fatal virus counts as direct harm to others.
Let us assume that Coronavirus is far more dangerous than seasonal flu and has the potential to kill millions. If so, it is a classic public health problem. It carries serious negative externalities and can only be dealt with by collective action. There are things you can do as an individual to reduce your risk - wash your hands, cancel non-urgent appointments, etc. - but you will still be at risk.
Libertarians want to keep coercion to the minimum. We would prefer mass vaccination, but there is no vaccine yet. We would prefer voluntary self-isolation, but we cannot rely on people doing this even if they are aware that they have the virus. Lock-downs and quarantines are economically damaging and illiberal. They might be a last resort, but they should not be off the table. They do not fall under the umbrella of ‘nanny state’ because they are designed to protect other people from you and you from other people, not you from yourself.
...
We want to keep restrictions on liberty to a minimum and we do not want to damage the economy, but we may have to accept a bit of both - temporarily - if we are to protect ourselves. This is not the nanny state. It is the prevention of harm from an external threat.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
Casino and I have certainly had our differences, open rows at times. But this post is deeply unfair. There was nothing racist about his comments. He was merely calling for global standards and insisting they applied to China.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
This is all absolutely true. It's also true that it's done more to relieve human poverty and sickness than any other organization in the history of the universe. Modern China is just an epic, monstrous, astonishing, incredible, evil, wonderful, terrifying phenomenon.
If you've got some leverage over them I'd have thought were more useful ways to deploy it than badgering them over their treatment of pangolins, since that's something they'll be motivated to look at already, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not a fan of the Chinese government or their evolving Xi personality cult. But right now I'd rather live in China under Xi than in America under Trimp. In China I'd need to be annoyingly careful not to annoy local bureacrsats and police. In the US I'd quite possibly die of the virus while Trump olishes his self-image. The Chinese government appears to be rational, though unpleasantly authoritarian. The US government does not, and that is really, really terrifying.
Good article Mike. I think a key thing will be how long the measures go on. WW I and WW II went for on for a number of years and required the full mobilisation of society (and far more than we have seen here, and with far more willingness to transcend what were deemed to be accepted boundaries across a whole range of issues, not just personal freedom. My feeling is that, if this is done within 6 months (and if a vaccine is in place / near in place), then it will be seen as a one-off but with people taking steps to shore up what they suddenly realised was quite a precarious existence (eg I would expect savings to go through the roof in any recovery as people build in a nest egg)
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
No.
I have contacted the moderators.
Let's try not to get tetchy with one another. This is a great forum. Play fair everyone.
xx
I agree. But I don't take accusations of racism lightly.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
Casino and I have certainly had our differences, open rows at times. But this post is deeply unfair. There was nothing racist about his comments. He was merely calling for global standards and insisting they applied to China.
When all this is over, those on the green-left will be thinking that if all this can be done to tackle the virus, surely we can do a hell of a lot more to tackle the climate emergency.
Alternatively, if this misery is what it takes to reduce CO2 by the amount we need to, then people might just go off this whole green thing. :-(
Good article Mike. I think a key thing will be how long the measures go on. WW I and WW II went for on for a number of years and required the full mobilisation of society (and far more than we have seen here, and with far more willingness to transcend what were deemed to be accepted boundaries across a whole range of issues, not just personal freedom. My feeling is that, if this is done within 6 months (and if a vaccine is in place / near in place), then it will be seen as a one-off but with people taking steps to shore up what they suddenly realised was quite a precarious existence (eg I would expect savings to go through the roof in any recovery as people build in a nest egg)
I have to say, I completely disagree. Testing will be hugely ramped up. Treatments will improve and people kept off ventilators. Then the measures will be wound down. I don't think people would tolerate this for two months, let alone six.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
I don’t know. Neither do you. That’s the point. Right now the self-employed and zero hours workers have no choice but to carry on as normal, while a lot of businesses are not yet sure whether they are essential or not. Until there is clarity on these things, people will continue to travel. It could be that Khan did make a mistake in believing such clarity would be provided. It’s clear now, though, that the government must now get involved - either to order, and subsidise, additional transport, or to be much clearer about what is essential and what help will be available to the self-employed and those on zero hours work.
Why would they cut transport though? I presume train drivers will get paid either way, their job doesn’t involve any physical interaction with anyone else at all, and we want more space between people on trains, so best there’s more of them. I can’t see why they’d think to run a reduced service
I guess because the government advised against non-essential travel. As I understand it Khan has been in on the COBRA meetings. I doubt this was unilateral action.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
Casino and I have certainly had our differences, open rows at times. But this post is deeply unfair. There was nothing racist about his comments. He was merely calling for global standards and insisting they applied to China.
You are the one using racial epithets. Not him.
We should insist on a Level Playing Field for trade. If only we were part of some kind of powerful single market.
I don't know where the politics of this will end up (and it doesn't matter right now and nobody cares) but one thing is abundantly clear.
The team that won campaigns through ruthless message discipline is not very good at the actual governing thing.
The message on the lecterns last week was stay at home. What BoZo actually said though was practice social distancing, whatever that means.
In a campaign, they would have had every cabinet minister on every show repeating the phrase, stay at home. As an aside this shows how petty and dangerous the BBC boycott was.
With a focused message, the contradictory statements about who can do what would have been easier.
Stay at home, unless you are a key worker.
The Government started with a very woolly definition of key worker and then tried to refine it downwards.
It would perhaps have been better to start with a very restricted definition, and then expand it by exception. Whitelist rather than blacklist as it were.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
This is all absolutely true. It's also true that it's done more to relieve human poverty and sickness than any other organization in the history of the universe. Modern China is just an epic, monstrous, astonishing, incredible, evil, wonderful, terrifying phenomenon.
If you've got some leverage over them I'd have thought were more useful ways to deploy it than badgering them over their treatment of pangolins, since that's something they'll be motivated to look at already, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not a fan of the Chinese government or their evolving Xi personality cult. But right now I'd rather live in China under Xi than in America under Trimp. In China I'd need to be annoyingly careful not to annoy local bureacrsats and police. In the US I'd quite possibly die of the virus while Trump olishes his self-image. The Chinese government appears to be rational, though unpleasantly authoritarian. The US government does not, and that is really, really terrifying.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
Casino and I have certainly had our differences, open rows at times. But this post is deeply unfair. There was nothing racist about his comments. He was merely calling for global standards and insisting they applied to China.
You are the one using racial epithets. Not him.
The trick is, not to call people virtue signallers. Crack that, and sweetness and light follow as night follows day.
Anyway, I am off essentially shopping. For vegetable seeds.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
That's not what I said at all.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
No.
I have contacted the moderators.
Let's try not to get tetchy with one another. This is a great forum. Play fair everyone.
xx
I agree. But I don't take accusations of racism lightly.
This is not good. We are going to need more clarity on what essential working is and on what help will be given to the self-employed and zero hours workers. People getting up this early and heading to work are not metropolitan avocado eaters or good time Charlies. They are people who have no choice currently.
How do you know they're not all key workers? You can't tell from just their faces what work people are going to, especially if they're getting changed into uniforms on site and not on the commute (as I know some have been told to do to reduce risk of transmission from transport onto clothes).
If you slash the frequency of trains you will end up cramming the key workers onto a few trains. Not a smart move!
Why would they all be key workers ? There is a large economy that exists outside shops and key workers
Why wouldn't they all be key workers?
There is a large economy that exists within key workers. Train transport numbers are said to be down 80%, the pictures from the train concorses shows them to be empty - yet the trains are packed. Why are the trains packed when passenger numbers are down 80% and concorses are empty? Possibly because the number of trains made available to those key workers have been slashed.
Put on the number of trains you'd normally have (subject to availability of train drivers) and trains would be largely empty based on the 80% reduction in passengers. It doesn't help reducing passengers by 80% if you reduce trains by 80% too!
Timpsons will surely be open; they're all key workers.
Cobblers.
That's a bit cutting.
OK, I’ll watch it from now on.
I hope that’s the last comment hammered out on here.
The Chinese government is probably the most damaging force in the world today - widespread human rights abuses, repression of religious minorities, Hong Kong, Tibet, and now barbaric animal welfare standards causing a viral outbreak and government cover-up delaying a global response. Pointing this out and wanting said government to be held to account is clearly not hating or blaming the ordinary Chinese population and it's daft to claim otherwise.
Quite so. Bravo.
Unfortunately, there are some posters on here who are far more interested in virtue-signalling and condemning others on here than taking any action.
I think it is about priorities. I have woken to a strange new world one of whose oddest features is that I basically can't buy anything, of any kind, anywhere. I am therefore a bit bemused to find a manic slope baiter shouting the odds about how I should be preferentially not buying Chinese things; it may be right, but it's a bit previous and kinda not the point at the moment.
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
Casino and I have certainly had our differences, open rows at times. But this post is deeply unfair. There was nothing racist about his comments. He was merely calling for global standards and insisting they applied to China.
You are the one using racial epithets. Not him.
The trick is, not to call people virtue signallers. Crack that, and sweetness and light follow as night follows day.
Anyway, I am off essentially shopping. For vegetable seeds.
Junior doctor "vlogging" coronavirus response. Interesting talks to a more senior healthcare professional in ICU said government modelling to how this is spreading looks spot on. Neither of these people are big fans of the government in general.
Comments
FFS Gove - why wasn’t this example clear ?
And your wilfully ignorant delusion that communicable disease is a racial thing is unsettling.
The train stations are largely empty. That's indicative that its the trains and not the people that are the issue.
We need permanent global change.
Should he be at work.
If the job is half finished I get it. Should companies be starting new jobs now?
Just because CoronaVirus has not killed hundreds of thousands does yet not mean it will not kill hundreds of thousands.
I am genuinely confused about this.
You can read this two ways. On the one hand, it's good that the measures have such strong support. On the other hand, this shows that the measures could probably have been introduced before now, if the government had been willing to accept some criticism for its actions. It needs to get a thicker skin and fast. Its unwillingness to be disliked is costing lives.
And ban those markets (presuming that hasn't already happened).
If you've got some leverage over them I'd have thought were more useful ways to deploy it than badgering them over their treatment of pangolins, since that's something they'll be motivated to look at already, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hmm......
"We need permanent global change."
Isn't reducing the population a start?
Personally I think Johnson hasn't gone far enough. He should put troops on the streets and enforce it with martial law for the next 3 weeks.
Sometimes you have to restrict freedom in order to protect it.
Do we even have enough troops?
Not even an electronic one with headphones. A full bloody drum kit.
Please withdraw that remark or I will alert the moderators.
To do what troops always do to instil public order and certainly incarcerate offenders.
It has happened in China and Italy. Troops on the streets would soon send the message home.
He must withdraw that and apologise.
I'm not going to be super-critical. While these are life and death decisions, any of us would struggle with the immense and rapid calls that are being required of the government right now. Being right slowly is as lethal as being wrong quickly.
xx
https://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/2020/03/are-there-any-libertarians-in-pandemic.html
Christopher Snowdon is a proper anti-nanny state, anti-"public health industry" libertarian and even he's onside for this one!
How can libertarians ever support mandatory quarantine and nationwide lockdowns?
Quite easily, as it happens. I can’t speak for all libertarians (who can?) but I see libertarianism as applied economics. The government should leave businesses alone unless there are demonstrable market failures and it should leave people alone unless they are doing direct harm to others.
In case it is not obvious, infecting somebody with a potentially fatal virus counts as direct harm to others.
Let us assume that Coronavirus is far more dangerous than seasonal flu and has the potential to kill millions. If so, it is a classic public health problem. It carries serious negative externalities and can only be dealt with by collective action. There are things you can do as an individual to reduce your risk - wash your hands, cancel non-urgent appointments, etc. - but you will still be at risk.
Libertarians want to keep coercion to the minimum. We would prefer mass vaccination, but there is no vaccine yet. We would prefer voluntary self-isolation, but we cannot rely on people doing this even if they are aware that they have the virus. Lock-downs and quarantines are economically damaging and illiberal. They might be a last resort, but they should not be off the table. They do not fall under the umbrella of ‘nanny state’ because they are designed to protect other people from you and you from other people, not you from yourself.
...
We want to keep restrictions on liberty to a minimum and we do not want to damage the economy, but we may have to accept a bit of both - temporarily - if we are to protect ourselves. This is not the nanny state. It is the prevention of harm from an external threat.
You are the one using racial epithets. Not him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-latest-news-non-essential-shops-close/
I appreciate that.
The team that won campaigns through ruthless message discipline is not very good at the actual governing thing.
The message on the lecterns last week was stay at home. What BoZo actually said though was practice social distancing, whatever that means.
In a campaign, they would have had every cabinet minister on every show repeating the phrase, stay at home. As an aside this shows how petty and dangerous the BBC boycott was.
With a focused message, the contradictory statements about who can do what would have been easier.
Stay at home, unless you are a key worker.
The Government started with a very woolly definition of key worker and then tried to refine it downwards.
It would perhaps have been better to start with a very restricted definition, and then expand it by exception. Whitelist rather than blacklist as it were.
Anyway, I am off essentially shopping. For vegetable seeds.
xx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWZpdZ3luYk&t=213s