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  • Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    They wash more notes than cars.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    nico67 said:

    Social care, and the hospitality industry are in big trouble with this new immigration system .

    Utterly deluded new policy .

    Love your can do attitude.

    You would prefer low wages and brain draining Eastern Europe ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    Social care, and the hospitality industry are in big trouble with this new immigration system .

    Utterly deluded new policy .

    Have you read it in detail? You know that there's no exemptions for certain groups etc?
    The exceptions seem to be in agriculture, nothing about social care or the hospitality industry . And it’s not just the salaries , many people simply don’t want to work in certain jobs . Who is going to do them .
  • Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
  • TGOHF666 said:
    I presume he means " highly-skilled worker route for those WITH a job offer."
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
  • Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    "Overseas Muslims"? You mean like French ones?
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    Indeed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    Social care, and the hospitality industry are in big trouble with this new immigration system .

    Utterly deluded new policy .

    Have you read it in detail? You know that there's no exemptions for certain groups etc?
    The exceptions seem to be in agriculture, nothing about social care or the hospitality industry . And it’s not just the salaries , many people simply don’t want to work in certain jobs . Who is going to do them .
    Other old Leavers?

    It is what they voted for.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    Market forces. People prefer to have their cars hand washed. As a Conservative I thought you would approve.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    TGOHF666 said:

    They wash more notes than cars.
    So mostly Nissans then.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    But congrats to Boris for no longer discriminating against Malaysians like the EU does ?

  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
    There’s no upside. It’s an endless wet weekend stuck in a broken down Austin Allegro waiting for the AA man drinking lukewarm coffee from a tartan thermos.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
    There’s no upside. It’s an endless wet weekend stuck in a broken down Austin Allegro waiting for the AA man drinking lukewarm coffee from a tartan thermos.
    Eeyore's been on the blower, he asks if you could tone it down a bit as you are stealing his USP.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    "Overseas Muslims"? You mean like French ones?
    We have replaced our departed Spanish nurses with some very good Somali ones. Not quite as much fun on a ward night out, but OK.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
    There’s no upside. It’s an endless wet weekend stuck in a broken down Austin Allegro waiting for the AA man drinking lukewarm coffee from a tartan thermos.
    We’ve seen this meltdown before.

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    The difference is that Australia never had to go from absolutely unfettered free trade with its closest trading partners to full WTO terms overnight with less than a year to prepare.
  • TOPPING said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    Market forces. People prefer to have their cars hand washed. As a Conservative I thought you would approve.
    I don't - our fully automated car wash does everything and more a hand wash can and it comes out dry
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
    There’s no upside. It’s an endless wet weekend stuck in a broken down Austin Allegro waiting for the AA man drinking lukewarm coffee from a tartan thermos.
    Alastair. You are becomimg tedious and you are better than that
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
    There’s no upside. It’s an endless wet weekend stuck in a broken down Austin Allegro waiting for the AA man drinking lukewarm coffee from a tartan thermos.
    Alastair. You are becomimg tedious and you are better than that
    Or, alternatively, I’m pointing out an unwelcome truth.
  • Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    "Overseas Muslims"? You mean like French ones?
    We have replaced our departed Spanish nurses with some very good Somali ones. Not quite as much fun on a ward night out, but OK.
    Can you explain that comment please
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,712
    TOPPING said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    Market forces. People prefer to have their cars hand washed. As a Conservative I thought you would approve.
    Perhaps as a misanthrope it’s the idea of contact with human beings that’s off-putting. As for baristas, show me a machine that can do this:

    https://youtu.be/Z7e8tmcSrxg
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    Brexit: Not The End Of The World
    A North Korean style deal.
    I really think you need to get some perspective Alastair

    Of course there are downsides to brexit but equally having left nothing is achieved by being a constant doom and gloom merchant
    There’s no upside. It’s an endless wet weekend stuck in a broken down Austin Allegro waiting for the AA man drinking lukewarm coffee from a tartan thermos.
    Alastair. You are becomimg tedious and you are better than that
    Or, alternatively, I’m pointing out an unwelcome truth.
    The unwelcome truth is that there really is no work for a Marvin the Paranoid Android tribute act.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    Nothing wrong with automatic car-washers. Everyone used them in the 80s and 90s.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    I expect this is how Labour voters in 1979 felt just before the country advanced 30 years in a decade.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    The difference is that Australia never had to go from absolutely unfettered free trade with its closest trading partners to full WTO terms overnight with less than a year to prepare.
    There's another difference.

    Look at Australia's exports: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/aus/

    Most of what Australia exports (coal, iron ore, gas, copper, gold) is tariff free in both the EU and around the world.

    There are exceptions, like wheat, but Australia has a massive consumer of agricultural staples on its doorstep and doesn't need to export them around the world.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    With an apparent unwillingness of the EU side to engage on an FTA, I foresee a unilateral abolition of tariffs by the UK. At least UK consumers get a good outcome that way.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Nothing wrong with automatic car-washers. Everyone used them in the 80s and 90s.
    Or one could always jet wash their own car....or pay their kids a fiver to do, like in the old days.
  • rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    The difference is that Australia never had to go from absolutely unfettered free trade with its closest trading partners to full WTO terms overnight with less than a year to prepare.
    It did when we joined the EEC.

    Australians do better with their deal than we do with ours. Ideally I hope we get a proper free trade deal with Europe - but if we don't I can live with that. The sooner its dealt with the better.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Andy_JS said:

    Nothing wrong with automatic car-washers. Everyone used them in the 80s and 90s.
    They weren’t so good as cover for other cash based enterprises though.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    Social care, and the hospitality industry are in big trouble with this new immigration system .

    Utterly deluded new policy .

    Have you read it in detail? You know that there's no exemptions for certain groups etc?
    The exceptions seem to be in agriculture, nothing about social care or the hospitality industry . And it’s not just the salaries , many people simply don’t want to work in certain jobs . Who is going to do them .
    Other old Leavers?

    It is what they voted for.

    The hospitality industry is going to be screwed . Even if you put up salaries you won’t get enough Brits to do those jobs and social care is going to collapse . Elderly Leavers should be happy , they can wipe their own arses happy in the knowledge that they’ve kept out those hard working east Europeans !
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    edited February 2020

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    People prefer to get their car washed manually.

    That's the market.

    (And, by the way, that's not an EU thing. Global sales of automatic car wash machines have collapsed.)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    The difference is that Australia never had to go from absolutely unfettered free trade with its closest trading partners to full WTO terms overnight with less than a year to prepare.
    There's another difference.

    Look at Australia's exports: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/aus/

    Most of what Australia exports (coal, iron ore, gas, copper, gold) is tariff free in both the EU and around the world.

    There are exceptions, like wheat, but Australia has a massive consumer of agricultural staples on its doorstep and doesn't need to export them around the world.
    Yet that's still only a fraction of Aussie GDP and industry.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    eadric said:

    Coronavirus update: HUBEI province, China, Feb 18, 2020

    There were 1693 new cases reported today, again a slight decline

    The mortality figure is, however, up again: 132 new deaths today, a bit of a spike, taking the total over 2,000

    9,289 are critically ill

    http://wjw.hubei.gov.cn/fbjd/dtyw/202002/t20200219_2129954.shtml

    It's not going away, but the draconian quarantine restrictions are keeping a lid on it?

    49% mortality for critically ill, though that may reflect the overwhelming demand on ICU beds in Hubei. We are a long way from being out of the woods.


  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
  • rcs1000 said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    People prefer to get their car washed manually.

    That's the market.
    And if they can pay a fair price so that those working at the car wash make decent wages without subsidies then why shouldn't they?

    On the other hand if they wish to pay a pittance to people on dodgy labour contracts then I couldn't care less about that. Nobody has a right to slave labour.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    geoffw said:

    With an apparent unwillingness of the EU side to engage on an FTA, I foresee a unilateral abolition of tariffs by the UK. At least UK consumers get a good outcome that way.

    So basically destroying a lot of UK jobs ! And then why would any other country want to do a trade deal when they have tariff free access to the UK .
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Any industry with a labour shortage can have its 5 year work visa rate reduced - no industry is collapsing.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    The difference is that Australia never had to go from absolutely unfettered free trade with its closest trading partners to full WTO terms overnight with less than a year to prepare.
    There's another difference.

    Look at Australia's exports: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/aus/

    Most of what Australia exports (coal, iron ore, gas, copper, gold) is tariff free in both the EU and around the world.

    There are exceptions, like wheat, but Australia has a massive consumer of agricultural staples on its doorstep and doesn't need to export them around the world.
    Yet that's still only a fraction of Aussie GDP and industry.
    But it's not a fraction of their exports.

    Look around you. Everything made overseas was either paid for by British exports, or by borrowing money from abroad.

    I'm not saying we can't survive and prosper outside the EU. Indeed, I think we will do great. But we are more Switzerland than Australia.
  • Surely if someone specifies 'it' as their PGP then we Woke folks have to respect the choice, or have I missed something?
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:



    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Relax everyone.

    Boris will cave to the EU just like he did on NI.

    Leavers are generally too dumb to understand the details so we are all good for an EU-controlled Brexit.

    I thought that. I was convinced of it. The only question was who would play the part of the DUP and be ruthlessly thrown under the bus.

    However, since the start of the year and the redefinition of no deal as "an Australian-style deal" I now think differently. Boris is in thrall to the creative destruction types, the revolutionary purists who reject compromise as the work of quislings.

    That is, after all, why Northern Ireland was cut free - so that Britain could choose to have no ties with the EU at all. Why make that sacrifice if not willing to follow through?
    Australian style deal is a fantastic piece of spin.

    People were acting terrified of "No Deal" or "WTO" like it was some sort of Armageddon. However saying its just trading like Australia does with the EU and like we do with Australia makes it appear in context. Its not the end of the world.
    The difference is that Australia never had to go from absolutely unfettered free trade with its closest trading partners to full WTO terms overnight with less than a year to prepare.
    There's another difference.

    Look at Australia's exports: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/aus/

    Most of what Australia exports (coal, iron ore, gas, copper, gold) is tariff free in both the EU and around the world.

    There are exceptions, like wheat, but Australia has a massive consumer of agricultural staples on its doorstep and doesn't need to export them around the world.
    Yet that's still only a fraction of Aussie GDP and industry.
    But it's not a fraction of their exports.

    Look around you. Everything made overseas was either paid for by British exports, or by borrowing money from abroad.

    I'm not saying we can't survive and prosper outside the EU. Indeed, I think we will do great. But we are more Switzerland than Australia.
    Some want to return to a time when we made our own hob-nailed boots and corn scythes and could survive on that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    rcs1000 said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    People prefer to get their car washed manually.

    That's the market.
    And if they can pay a fair price so that those working at the car wash make decent wages without subsidies then why shouldn't they?

    On the other hand if they wish to pay a pittance to people on dodgy labour contracts then I couldn't care less about that. Nobody has a right to slave labour.
    The rest of my comment was added, so you missed it.

    The three largest makers of automatic car wash equipment are all doing really badly. That's not to do with the EU, it's to do with the fact that people prefer the higher quality finish of a manual wash.

    Now, if we're subsidising people to come to the UK to do these jobs, then that's a problem.

    But we have to let the market fix it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited February 2020

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I remember pointing out how intractable negotiations would be well before the referendum. For my pains I got abused by the diehard Leavers, who have now moved seamlessly from saying how effortless striking a deal would be to saying how impossible striking a deal is now. Some humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    "Overseas Muslims"? You mean like French ones?
    We have replaced our departed Spanish nurses with some very good Somali ones. Not quite as much fun on a ward night out, but OK.
    Can you explain that comment please
    In 2014 my Trust recruited heavily in Spain and Portugal for nurses. All but two have now left, and one of the remaining ones only because no one in Spain would give her a job. We have recruited from Somalia quite a few replacements. On the whole quite a decent bunch, but culturally less inclined to go out on ward socials.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    If anything sums up the Brexit argument on both sides, it's the Greek attempt to insert an "Elgin Marbles" clause into the UK/EU trade deal.

    On the one hand, it's completely bonkers behaviour and an utterly unhelpful attempt at blackmail.

    On the other, why wouldn't we want to be on the side of people who think they can get away with that sort of thing?

    No inference should be made about whether or not I think the Elgin Marbles should be returned irrespective of any trade deal.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:



    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.
    The government has just put up a big sign saying "TALENTED? COME HERE." I expect the message will be received.

    The threshold to get a visa is below the median wage. Its actually almost exactly at the halfway point between the minimum living wage and the median wage.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:



    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.
    Utter nonsense
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,442

    TOPPING said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    Market forces. People prefer to have their cars hand washed. As a Conservative I thought you would approve.
    Perhaps as a misanthrope it’s the idea of contact with human beings that’s off-putting. As for baristas, show me a machine that can do this:

    https://youtu.be/Z7e8tmcSrxg
    I prefer tea.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    People prefer to get their car washed manually.

    That's the market.
    And if they can pay a fair price so that those working at the car wash make decent wages without subsidies then why shouldn't they?

    On the other hand if they wish to pay a pittance to people on dodgy labour contracts then I couldn't care less about that. Nobody has a right to slave labour.
    The rest of my comment was added, so you missed it.

    The three largest makers of automatic car wash equipment are all doing really badly. That's not to do with the EU, it's to do with the fact that people prefer the higher quality finish of a manual wash.

    Now, if we're subsidising people to come to the UK to do these jobs, then that's a problem.

    But we have to let the market fix it.
    I agree 100%.

    If people are prepared to pay extra to get a hand wash and that's enough to give someone a living wage why shouldn't that be done? If OTOH they're not paying enough to get people in to do it then the market will take care of that too.
  • Endillion said:

    If anything sums up the Brexit argument on both sides, it's the Greek attempt to insert an "Elgin Marbles" clause into the UK/EU trade deal.

    On the one hand, it's completely bonkers behaviour and an utterly unhelpful attempt at blackmail.

    On the other, why wouldn't we want to be on the side of people who think they can get away with that sort of thing?

    No inference should be made about whether or not I think the Elgin Marbles should be returned irrespective of any trade deal.

    Fake news. The clause related to antique smuggling.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:



    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.
    You are predicting the population of the Uk will drop ?

    It’s a view.
  • eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Coronavirus update: HUBEI province, China, Feb 18, 2020

    There were 1693 new cases reported today, again a slight decline

    The mortality figure is, however, up again: 132 new deaths today, a bit of a spike, taking the total over 2,000

    9,289 are critically ill

    http://wjw.hubei.gov.cn/fbjd/dtyw/202002/t20200219_2129954.shtml

    It's not going away, but the draconian quarantine restrictions are keeping a lid on it?

    49% mortality for critically ill, though that may reflect the overwhelming demand on ICU beds in Hubei. We are a long way from being out of the woods.


    Indeed. As I say, they have a lid on it, but that's all it is. It's still bubbling away beneath.

    And how long can they really keep 150 MILLION people locked in their homes, and 600 million with travel bans etc?! And how long before this really crocks the global economy?

    This is how the virus performs when a TENTH of humanity is in quarantine.

    Imagine if it had started in India.....
    Still only three cases in India. No deaths, touch wood.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:



    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.
    Utter nonsense
    Calling it nonsense is hardly much of an answer. The government has with great fanfare introduced a swathe of restrictions on immigration and is presenting them as such. They will no doubt be very popular among that cohort of Leavers who regret the passing of the last millennium. But the message is just as clearly heard in other countries and its meaning is clear.
  • These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Coronavirus update: HUBEI province, China, Feb 18, 2020

    There were 1693 new cases reported today, again a slight decline

    The mortality figure is, however, up again: 132 new deaths today, a bit of a spike, taking the total over 2,000

    9,289 are critically ill

    http://wjw.hubei.gov.cn/fbjd/dtyw/202002/t20200219_2129954.shtml

    It's not going away, but the draconian quarantine restrictions are keeping a lid on it?

    49% mortality for critically ill, though that may reflect the overwhelming demand on ICU beds in Hubei. We are a long way from being out of the woods.


    There's a reason they were building hospitals in ten days, unconnected with a visit from the Guiness Book of Records.

    Still think the appalling urban air quality in China is a massive factor there. People have shot lungs. And they smoke, just to fuck them further. This respitory virus is making hay.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    nico67 said:

    geoffw said:

    With an apparent unwillingness of the EU side to engage on an FTA, I foresee a unilateral abolition of tariffs by the UK. At least UK consumers get a good outcome that way.

    So basically destroying a lot of UK jobs ! And then why would any other country want to do a trade deal when they have tariff free access to the UK .
    Lump of labour fallacy. But yes, those jobs that currently rely on tariff protection would be wound down. Others will appear.

  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    “Nobody will want to come to Fatchas Britain in the 80s!”
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:



    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months

    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds is going to come to anti-immigrant bureaucratic “fuck business” Britain? Anyone with any gumption is going to be hightailing it to a country that actually welcomes someone with drive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.
    You are just bitter and have no way of knowing how EU citizens and others will see their career prospects in the UK in the future
    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.
    Utter nonsense
    Calling it nonsense is hardly much of an answer. The government has with great fanfare introduced a swathe of restrictions on immigration and is presenting them as such. They will no doubt be very popular among that cohort of Leavers who regret the passing of the last millennium. But the message is just as clearly heard in other countries and its meaning is clear.
    It will be popular with many skilled workers from across the world and beyond
  • Endillion said:

    If anything sums up the Brexit argument on both sides, it's the Greek attempt to insert an "Elgin Marbles" clause into the UK/EU trade deal.

    On the one hand, it's completely bonkers behaviour and an utterly unhelpful attempt at blackmail.

    On the other, why wouldn't we want to be on the side of people who think they can get away with that sort of thing?

    No inference should be made about whether or not I think the Elgin Marbles should be returned irrespective of any trade deal.

    Imagine if the Crown Jewels were kept in an Athens museum for "safe keeping"?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    TGOHF666 said:

    “Nobody will want to come to Fatchas Britain in the 80s!”

    I think that was largely true. There was little net immigration in the Eighties, and the last year of net emigration.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    TOPPING said:

    Our car wash is virtually 100% automated and labour free
    I swear there were more automated car washes 20 years ago than there are now. Sooner we go back to automation the better.

    As for hospitality, machines can make coffee as well as any barista now.

    If we have full employment then we should be eliminating low skilled jobs not importing low skilled workers. We should be raising the bar.
    Market forces. People prefer to have their cars hand washed. As a Conservative I thought you would approve.
    Perhaps as a misanthrope it’s the idea of contact with human beings that’s off-putting. As for baristas, show me a machine that can do this:

    https://youtu.be/Z7e8tmcSrxg
    How shallow do you have to be to be impressed by that skill set?

    "Aw, he made me a foamy heart...."

    Puke.
  • These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    “Nobody will want to come to Fatchas Britain in the 80s!”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOV5WXISM24
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    geoffw said:

    nico67 said:

    geoffw said:

    With an apparent unwillingness of the EU side to engage on an FTA, I foresee a unilateral abolition of tariffs by the UK. At least UK consumers get a good outcome that way.

    So basically destroying a lot of UK jobs ! And then why would any other country want to do a trade deal when they have tariff free access to the UK .
    Lump of labour fallacy. But yes, those jobs that currently rely on tariff protection would be wound down. Others will appear.

    So you don’t mind if it’s your job being wound down ! And the great mythical US trade deal . They won’t have to bother now ! No country has zero tariffs unless their exports are given the same in return with a trade deal .
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,125
    geoffw said:

    ...I foresee a unilateral abolition of tariffs by the UK...

    If that does happens I will feel a lot better. But it does somewhat rely on the Government being economically literate ad willing to ignore the electoral disadvantages. Given the behavior of populist conservatives worldwide, I suspect they will do the exact opposite: impose tariffs and scream at the Europeans... :(
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    What happens if the “talented graduate” doesn’t speak German. And is a little concerned about the AfD?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited February 2020

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems. If a country has good jobs, rule of law is generally well followed, good education and health system it is very attractive for talented individuals.

    English being the native language and the second language of many is also a bonus for the UK over say Germany or France.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Endillion said:

    If anything sums up the Brexit argument on both sides, it's the Greek attempt to insert an "Elgin Marbles" clause into the UK/EU trade deal.

    On the one hand, it's completely bonkers behaviour and an utterly unhelpful attempt at blackmail.

    On the other, why wouldn't we want to be on the side of people who think they can get away with that sort of thing?

    No inference should be made about whether or not I think the Elgin Marbles should be returned irrespective of any trade deal.

    Stuff like the Elgin marbles provision is just adding divisiveness to the mix. It is like the UK demanding repayment for liberating Europe.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Endillion said:

    If anything sums up the Brexit argument on both sides, it's the Greek attempt to insert an "Elgin Marbles" clause into the UK/EU trade deal.

    On the one hand, it's completely bonkers behaviour and an utterly unhelpful attempt at blackmail.

    On the other, why wouldn't we want to be on the side of people who think they can get away with that sort of thing?

    No inference should be made about whether or not I think the Elgin Marbles should be returned irrespective of any trade deal.

    Personally, I think that the 200th anniversary of Greek Independence would be the ideal time to return the Elgin Marbles, as a gesture of British Greek friendship.
  • These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
  • eadric said:

    As far as I can tell, we are making it quite a lot harder (but not impossible) for EU citizens to work here - unless they are skilled, in demand, etc, in which case it is still quite simple for them.

    At the same time we are making it somewhat EASIER for skilled non-EU workers to come here, the requirements are lower, etc.

    This is not Nazi-style xenophobia. It's an independent country realising that it still wants and needs global immigrants, especially skilled ones, but it cannot run an economy based on endless cheap foreign labour, with no controls on who comes here.

    Yep, it’s not punitive and will probably make little difference to overall levels of legal immigration. Ways will have to be found to keep the social care sector going. Given the blanket ban on self-employment, though, you would expect the size of the black economy to grow. The key thing will be the practical details around the hiring process.

  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited February 2020

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    You really are losing it. The Federal Canadian immigration system is basically the same as what is being proposed here, in fact I would say it is tougher.

    You need to get x points, which normally means you need to have a degree or a particular skill in a certain sector to have a chance of getting over the threshold, and then you get loads of brucie bonus points for things like a PhD.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    “Nobody will want to come to Fatchas Britain in the 80s!”

    I think that was largely true. There was little net immigration in the Eighties, and the last year of net emigration.
    And Britain grew fast (after the inital recession), the City boomed, London finally reversed its population decline, and we stopped being the sick man of Europe.

    Also, the music was better then. And I was 12 stone.
    All whilst in the EEC/EU and pushing Maggie's Single European Act.
  • Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    If the economy collapses and there’s mass unemployment, why are we going to want lots of immigration?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    nico67 said:

    geoffw said:

    nico67 said:

    geoffw said:

    With an apparent unwillingness of the EU side to engage on an FTA, I foresee a unilateral abolition of tariffs by the UK. At least UK consumers get a good outcome that way.

    So basically destroying a lot of UK jobs ! And then why would any other country want to do a trade deal when they have tariff free access to the UK .
    Lump of labour fallacy. But yes, those jobs that currently rely on tariff protection would be wound down. Others will appear.

    So you don’t mind if it’s your job being wound down ! And the great mythical US trade deal . They won’t have to bother now ! No country has zero tariffs unless their exports are given the same in return with a trade deal .
    When I was gainfully employed my job was not protected by a tariff barrier. Of course I sympathise with anyone who loses their job, though often adjustment can be made via "natural wastage". The bouyant state of the UK labour market in recent years rather suggests that we can tolerate a fair amount of necessary adjustment.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264


    The government has just put up a big sign reading “GO ELSEWHERE”. I expect the message will be received.

    Utter nonsense
    Calling it nonsense is hardly much of an answer. The government has with great fanfare introduced a swathe of restrictions on immigration and is presenting them as such. They will no doubt be very popular among that cohort of Leavers who regret the passing of the last millennium. But the message is just as clearly heard in other countries and its meaning is clear.
    Brexit derangement syndrome at it's greatest (and I mean that solely in the magnitude sense)


    Once we stop having a practically infinite supply of labour willing to work for minimum wage our productivity should finally start to recover. Having thousands of people spend their life washing cars is a great waste of humanity.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
    So I’m confused. If we introduce Canadian/ Australian style immigration systems are we going to reduce immigration if not?
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
    Because its salaries are higher and its houses are bigger for less cost.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    There's a lot of emotion on both sides, including within me and you. This colours things.

    The EU is still incredulous and in a daze that the UK actually went through with it, and the UK wants to be able to demonstrate a clear victory (any victory) over the EU, who some think as a nation-state extinguishing federalist Empire.

    That may need some time to work through before the grown-ups take charge.

    This has pretty much been my analysis since the vote was taken and the initial negotiating lines were handed to Bernier.
    And you and @Casino_Royale are completely correct.

    A sensible, long-term UK-EU agreement is possible, probably, only after Brexit is well in the rear view mirror.
    Hmm. I rememberSome humility, contrition and a few apologies on their parts would be in order.
    I agree. You would do well to show humility and contrition for your deeply unpleasant behaviour over the last 12-18 months
    Since you have seamlessly moved from “anyone who advocates a second referendum before Britain leaves is a traitor to democracy” to “Britain can’t rejoin the EU without a broad consensus (which I will never subscribe to)”, your outstanding hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see.

    But since you were entirely happy to fall in behind a campaign that frightened voters into believing that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain if it remained in the EU, that’s all of a piece with your previous behaviour.
    Seems to me this points system will give overseas Muslims equal status with Europeans when it comes to opportunities to work in the Uk.

    Congrats to Boris eh ?
    Who in their right minds isdrive and dynamism.
    Another mindless quote.

    What do you think is inviting about today’s news if you are a bright young graduate in the EU considering your career options? Rather than jump through endless hoops like a performing poodle at Cruft’s to satisfy a government in thrall to people who think that NEETs can be retrained as rocket scientists, you’re going to go to Germany.

    We’ll clearly be less attractive for most EU talent outside of the very highest pay grades. Why bother with British red tape when you can go elsewhere? So, it’s likely we’ll see higher immigration from outside the EU. More from further east in Europe and Asia, most likely.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    Does it?

    We were recommended to open a development center in Quebec because of how easy it was to bring in people from Canada, the US and Asia. (And there are tonnes of subsidies too. And there's skiing. I still want to go for it, but my colleagues have vetoed it.)
  • alex_ said:

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
    So I’m confused. If we introduce Canadian/ Australian style immigration systems are we going to reduce immigration if not?
    The style of system does not set the number of migrants by itself. Both Australia and Canada operate the system in a way designed to attract migrants.

    Britain, meanwhile, is making great play of how it is telling most past EU migrants, including many current British residents, that they are unwelcome. We can expect the style of system to be operated in a way to deter migrants.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    alex_ said:

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
    So I’m confused. If we introduce Canadian/ Australian style immigration systems are we going to reduce immigration if not?
    The style of system does not set the number of migrants by itself. Both Australia and Canada operate the system in a way designed to attract migrants.

    Britain, meanwhile, is making great play of how it is telling most past EU migrants, including many current British residents, that they are unwelcome. We can expect the style of system to be operated in a way to deter migrants.
    Don't all existing EU residents here effectively get indefinite leave to remain? They aren't being told to leave.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    What’s the big deal about a skilled worker having to get a visa to work overseas? Loads of us have done it, it’s not hard.

    If a bright young european thing lacks the drive and nous to get a British working visa, then there will be plenty from outside the EU happy to fill the job for them.
  • Well looks like Liz has put her foot down..

    The Duke and Duchess of Sussex must drop their 'Sussex Royal' label after deciding to step down as working royals.

    Following lengthy and complex talks, the Queen and senior officials are believed to have agreed it is no longer tenable for the couple to keep the word 'royal' in their 'branding'.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8018043/Queen-BANS-Prince-Harry-Meghan-Markle-using-Sussex-Royal-brand-cost-thousands.html
  • RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
    So I’m confused. If we introduce Canadian/ Australian style immigration systems are we going to reduce immigration if not?
    The style of system does not set the number of migrants by itself. Both Australia and Canada operate the system in a way designed to attract migrants.

    Britain, meanwhile, is making great play of how it is telling most past EU migrants, including many current British residents, that they are unwelcome. We can expect the style of system to be operated in a way to deter migrants.
    Don't all existing EU residents here effectively get indefinite leave to remain? They aren't being told to leave.
    They’re not being told to leave. They’re being told they should never have been let in. As I said, they are being told that they are unwelcome.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    edited February 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    Does it?

    We were recommended to open a development center in Quebec because of how easy it was to bring in people from Canada, the US and Asia. (And there are tonnes of subsidies too. And there's skiing. I still want to go for it, but my colleagues have vetoed it.)
    They require English language ability and a skilled qualification to move there for work on a permanent basis. Unskilled workers can only go on a temporary basis, need a job offer, not to be taking that job from a local and have a high school diploma.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Gabs3 said:

    These restrictions don't seem that massively different from most developed countries, like Canada or Australia, and certainly nowhere near as restrictive as the US.

    Funnily enough, these places have huge numbers of people want to move to (and do) every year. And in Canada's case, it definitely ain't for the weather.

    Canada and Australia have far higher immigration rates than Britain.
    That's what I said....despite having similar "restriction" immigration systems.
    Canada and Australia want immigrants. Britain is pulling up the drawbridge.
    Canada has extremely tight immigration restrictions.
    So tight that its net migration rate is more than twice that of Britain’s.
    So I’m confused. If we introduce Canadian/ Australian style immigration systems are we going to reduce immigration if not?
    The style of system does not set the number of migrants by itself. Both Australia and Canada operate the system in a way designed to attract migrants.

    Britain, meanwhile, is making great play of how it is telling most past EU migrants, including many current British residents, that they are unwelcome. We can expect the style of system to be operated in a way to deter migrants.
    Don't all existing EU residents here effectively get indefinite leave to remain? They aren't being told to leave.
    They’re not being told to leave. They’re being told they should never have been let in. As I said, they are being told that they are unwelcome.
    Why would they think that? They got here legitimately under the system in place at the time. Now a new system is replacing it, which has no effect on their ability to stay in the UK.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited February 2020
    I think the government have also made a very sensible call on allowing non-UK graduates the leave to remain for 2 years to find a job if they so wish.

    Come to a UK university, get a good degree and find yourself a graduate level job and you will be more than welcome to stay.
This discussion has been closed.