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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    It is puerile bollox and just another Tory lie.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    I just don't understand it at all. The plea that those who don't love it not comment on it is just sad. The fact it's like a montage video of a TV drama romantic pairing is just bizarre (or its like an in memoriam video, which is even weirder). The fact they are so moved by it when you could find images of Boris smiling with people and do the exact same thing.

    I'm sorry, but it is seriously creepy stuff. I swear I try, not always successfully, to appreciate that people can passionately believe in a particular leader, and that good can come from that, but that is just creepy.

    I just played it and got tears in my ears. 50% for the right reason and 50% for all the wrong ones.

    The thing is, for some people (not many but also not a few) the Corbyn project was a massive thing. Lives spent arguing and activating for that sort of politics, most of the time ignored or laughed at, largely in the shadows, and then break through and into the light, for 4 years in charge of the Labour Party, coming close to power in 2017, and now - because of Dec 12th - it's all over. The dream is dead.

    And there is no sadder thing on this earth than when your dream dies. People should respect this. They should not need to be socialists themselves to empathize.
    I just watched it. It was excellent. The bit with the wreath was especially poignant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    malcolmg said:

    It is puerile bollox and just another Tory lie.
    It’s about as lovely as the Labour video someone posted below.
    Definitely eye of the beholder stuff - though I suspect a majority are immune to the appeal of both.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited January 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    I just don't understand it at all. The plea that those who don't love it not comment on it is just sad. The fact it's like a montage video of a TV drama romantic pairing is just bizarre (or its like an in memoriam video, which is even weirder). The fact they are so moved by it when you could find images of Boris smiling with people and do the exact same thing.

    I'm sorry, but it is seriously creepy stuff. I swear I try, not always successfully, to appreciate that people can passionately believe in a particular leader, and that good can come from that, but that is just creepy.

    I just played it and got tears in my ears. 50% for the right reason and 50% for all the wrong ones.

    The thing is, for some people (not many but also not a few) the Corbyn project was a massive thing. Lives spent arguing and activating for that sort of politics, most of the time ignored or laughed at, largely in the shadows, and then break through and into the light, for 4 years in charge of the Labour Party, coming close to power in 2017, and now - because of Dec 12th - it's all over. The dream is dead.

    And there is no sadder thing on this earth than when your dream dies. People should respect this. They should not need to be socialists themselves to empathize.
    There's empathy for seeing a dream fall apart, and then there's watching people create a musical montage video with soft focus shots of the dear leader whilst they wallow. The grief and upset of people who are very fearful for the future and who believed so greatly in the cause I respect totally.

    What I don't respect is adolescent worship of political figures, particularly when people are ignoring negatives about that person because they are projecting a dream on to that person. It's why I have no issue with people who respect Thatcher, but think people who to this day compare every new leader to her and consider what she would so and how no one measures up, are weirdly obsessed.

    There are great political leaders out there. There are leaders who might not be great but whose vision was beloved by many. These sorts of people might be respected across the political divide, or merely loved by one side, which is not to be dismissed. But they are just normal men and women, and sometimes a lot more normal than their worhshippers are prepared to admit. Respect, even admiration and loyalty, is understandable. Worship is not. And tribute videos set to music and stock images, is worship. I don't respect that one bit.
  • kle4 said:

    I just don't understand it at all. The plea that those who don't love it not comment on it is just sad. The fact it's like a montage video of a TV drama romantic pairing is just bizarre (or its like an in memoriam video, which is even weirder). The fact they are so moved by it when you could find images of Boris smiling with people and do the exact same thing.

    I'm sorry, but it is seriously creepy stuff. I swear I try, not always successfully, to appreciate that people can passionately believe in a particular leader, and that good can come from that, but that is just creepy.
    Not that its a surprise but yes, I agree, that's borderline unsettling.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    50+ opening partnerships becoming just routine for England. Makes such a difference.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    malcolmg said:

    It is puerile bollox and just another Tory lie.
    And the typeface looks the sort of thing I imagine Ratners used to go for.

    Will there be a companion coin to mark deMeghanification?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Don't rub our noses in it' says Lord Heseltine over plans to celebrate Brexit

    https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/01/25/dona-t-a-rub-our-noses-in-ita-remainer-heseltine-urges-john/

    What kind of bellend will celebrate it in any case, what exactly is there to celebrate if you are not a jingoistic halfwitted cretinous moron.
    That’s a demographic, malcolm, so you answered your own question. :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    DavidL said:

    50+ opening partnerships becoming just routine for England. Makes such a difference.

    Let’s wait to see the new top order play one of the stronger test sides.
    But pleasing nonetheless.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    I just don't understand it at all. The plea that those who don't love it not comment on it is just sad. The fact it's like a montage video of a TV drama romantic pairing is just bizarre (or its like an in memoriam video, which is even weirder). The fact they are so moved by it when you could find images of Boris smiling with people and do the exact same thing.

    I'm sorry, but it is seriously creepy stuff. I swear I try, not always successfully, to appreciate that people can passionately believe in a particular leader, and that good can come from that, but that is just creepy.

    I just played it and got tears in my ears. 50% for the right reason and 50% for all the wrong ones.

    The thing is, for some people (not many but also not a few) the Corbyn project was a massive thing. Lives spent arguing and activating for that sort of politics, most of the time ignored or laughed at, largely in the shadows, and then break through and into the light, for 4 years in charge of the Labour Party, coming close to power in 2017, and now - because of Dec 12th - it's all over. The dream is dead.

    And there is no sadder thing on this earth than when your dream dies. People should respect this. They should not need to be socialists themselves to empathize.
    There's empathy for seeing a dream fall apart, and then there's watching people create a musical montage video with soft focus shots of the dear leader whilst they wallow. The grief and upset of people who are very fearful for the future and who believed so greatly in the cause I respect totally.

    What I don't respect is adolescent worship of political figures, particularly when people are ignoring negatives about that person because they are projecting a dream on to that person. It's why I have no issue with people who respect Thatcher, but think people who to this day compare every new leader to her and consider what she would so and how no one measures up, are weirdly obsessed.

    There are great political leaders out there. There are leaders who might not be great but whose vision was beloved by many. These sorts of people might be respected across the political divide, or merely loved by one side, which is not to be dismissed. But they are just normal men and women, and sometimes a lot more normal than their worhshippers are prepared to admit. Respect, even admiration and loyalty, is understandable. Worship is not. And tribute videos set to music and stock images, is worship. I don't respect that one bit.
    Very well put.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    50+ opening partnerships becoming just routine for England. Makes such a difference.

    Let’s wait to see the new top order play one of the stronger test sides.
    But pleasing nonetheless.
    Ended now but job done. New ball dealt with. Need faster scoring batsmen now. England only need about 250.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    50+ opening partnerships becoming just routine for England. Makes such a difference.

    Let’s wait to see the new top order play one of the stronger test sides.
    But pleasing nonetheless.
    Ended now but job done. New ball dealt with. Need faster scoring batsmen now. England only need about 250.
    Do you mean they should have promoted Buttler ahead of Denly, or did you just jinx poor Crawley ?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Why is Fury a favourite over Wilder?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    HYUFD said:

    Good article and discussion - with national politics being a bit tumbleweed at the moment, it's a good time to look at underlying issues.

    A few thoughts (partly as the borough council Exec member responsible for parking):

    * Making towns interesting is the key. If it's merely somewhere to provide routine shopping, then retail parks will win. A few specialist shops, ideally on a common theme, will bring people in from other areas. Brighton has reinvented itself from a decaying seaside resort to an arty, edgy place for greenish people - not everyone's cup of tea, but a definite new identity. I don't think you have to go back to your former identity to thrive, and some really can't - the fishing and coal industries aren't going to suddenly boom.

    * The point about surplus of shops vs shortage of housing is good, but can't be taken too far - if you aren't careful, you end up with a dormitory of people always commuting somewhere else.

    * Free parking is fine for short stops ("I'll pop into Boots to get...") but counter-productive if extended too long, as commuters start to block the space. There's also an issue of what shops want (a stream of people coming and going) vs preventing too much pollution. Farnham, in my patch, has a pretty good shopping area, which draws in loads of traffic and a serious air quality problem.

    * Ideally you want park and ride or park and stride, but"ride" costs money and as for "stride", most people really don't like walking with heavy shopping, or indeed at all. Farnham has some car parks in easy walking distance from the centre - they are badly under-used, and there is even a request from a local fitness centre to get them cheap parking in the nearest multi-story, as their supposedly fitness-aspiring clients can't be bothered to walk from the one a bit further away.

    Excellent points Nick and I agree with all of them, specialist shops, free parking short enough to attract shoppers but not long enough to be taken by commuters and car parks close to the shops is key
    Cars will not be needed to transport heavy shopping as it increasingly moves on-line. Local Authorities should discourage cars and provide frequent bus services, possibly subsidised. They already do for OAPs.

    On-line shopping will inevitably win for material substances (potatoes) and services that can be downloaded (music). But on-line is useless for personal services (haircut, nails) and particularly for experiences (cafes, bars) and products that you want to touch, feel, try or put on before buying. Also for things you want NOW - today's newspaper or a pint of milk.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    50+ opening partnerships becoming just routine for England. Makes such a difference.

    Let’s wait to see the new top order play one of the stronger test sides.
    But pleasing nonetheless.
    Ended now but job done. New ball dealt with. Need faster scoring batsmen now. England only need about 250.
    Do you mean they should have promoted Buttler ahead of Denly, or did you just jinx poor Crawley ?
    I think Stokes actually. I hope I didn’t. Crawley has done well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    edited January 2020
    Denly is the one needing some runs. At the moment he looks the one to give way when Burns is fit.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Kind of on topic, if people are to celebrate, shouldn't it be done locally in small pubs rather than a congregation in a big city?

    A great point. And it would be far more appropriate given that Brexit is a provincial thing and the centre of resistance to it was London.

    For Leavers to celebrate Brexit Day in the capital is like scoring for Man U at Anfield and running the length of the pitch to celebrate in front of the Kop.

    Really tacky - and possibly slightly dangerous too.
    We are having a Brexit Party in Epping for local Tories on Friday night but we are paying for it ourselves
    I presume Remain voters aren't on the guest list?
    There will be Remain voters there who respect democracy (including me)
    Enjoy the evening. As a Leave voter, I'll probably be in bed by 11.
    I'll be wearing a black tie and a glum expression to mark the occasion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    This is going to be an exceedingly active area of debate over the next few years...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/26/priti-patel-radicalised-youth-plan-so-flawed-its-mad
    A Home Office-funded study into tackling radicalisation among young people has concluded that the approach being pushed through by the home secretary, Priti Patel, is so flawed that it is “madness”.
    Instead the research, which will be unveiled on Wednesday and is described as one of the biggest scientific surveys of its type in Europe, found that the most effective strategy was precisely the opposite approach pursued by Patel. Generating “positive psychology” among young people was found to be significantly more effective than punitive policies when challenging “violent youth radicalisation”, defined as gang crime through to the development of extreme ideologies....

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Kind of on topic, if people are to celebrate, shouldn't it be done locally in small pubs rather than a congregation in a big city?

    A great point. And it would be far more appropriate given that Brexit is a provincial thing and the centre of resistance to it was London.

    For Leavers to celebrate Brexit Day in the capital is like scoring for Man U at Anfield and running the length of the pitch to celebrate in front of the Kop.

    Really tacky - and possibly slightly dangerous too.
    We are having a Brexit Party in Epping for local Tories on Friday night but we are paying for it ourselves
    I presume Remain voters aren't on the guest list?
    There will be Remain voters there who respect democracy (including me)
    Enjoy the evening. As a Leave voter, I'll probably be in bed by 11.
    I'll be wearing a black tie and a glum expression to mark the occasion.
    In this weather, a few more clothes might be appropriate...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Nigelb said:

    This is going to be an exceedingly active area of debate over the next few years...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/26/priti-patel-radicalised-youth-plan-so-flawed-its-mad
    A Home Office-funded study into tackling radicalisation among young people has concluded that the approach being pushed through by the home secretary, Priti Patel, is so flawed that it is “madness”.
    Instead the research, which will be unveiled on Wednesday and is described as one of the biggest scientific surveys of its type in Europe, found that the most effective strategy was precisely the opposite approach pursued by Patel. Generating “positive psychology” among young people was found to be significantly more effective than punitive policies when challenging “violent youth radicalisation”, defined as gang crime through to the development of extreme ideologies....

    Rather childish of The Guardian to use this picture. I doubt it was accidental


  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Nigelb said:

    This is going to be an exceedingly active area of debate over the next few years...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/26/priti-patel-radicalised-youth-plan-so-flawed-its-mad
    A Home Office-funded study into tackling radicalisation among young people has concluded that the approach being pushed through by the home secretary, Priti Patel, is so flawed that it is “madness”.
    Instead the research, which will be unveiled on Wednesday and is described as one of the biggest scientific surveys of its type in Europe, found that the most effective strategy was precisely the opposite approach pursued by Patel. Generating “positive psychology” among young people was found to be significantly more effective than punitive policies when challenging “violent youth radicalisation”, defined as gang crime through to the development of extreme ideologies....

    It isn't about effectiveness. It is about making voters think that you are sticking it to the scrotes.

    Anything perceived as hand-wringing just won't wash.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    Nigelb said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Kind of on topic, if people are to celebrate, shouldn't it be done locally in small pubs rather than a congregation in a big city?

    A great point. And it would be far more appropriate given that Brexit is a provincial thing and the centre of resistance to it was London.

    For Leavers to celebrate Brexit Day in the capital is like scoring for Man U at Anfield and running the length of the pitch to celebrate in front of the Kop.

    Really tacky - and possibly slightly dangerous too.
    We are having a Brexit Party in Epping for local Tories on Friday night but we are paying for it ourselves
    I presume Remain voters aren't on the guest list?
    There will be Remain voters there who respect democracy (including me)
    Enjoy the evening. As a Leave voter, I'll probably be in bed by 11.
    I'll be wearing a black tie and a glum expression to mark the occasion.
    In this weather, a few more clothes might be appropriate...
    :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230

    Nigelb said:

    This is going to be an exceedingly active area of debate over the next few years...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/26/priti-patel-radicalised-youth-plan-so-flawed-its-mad
    A Home Office-funded study into tackling radicalisation among young people has concluded that the approach being pushed through by the home secretary, Priti Patel, is so flawed that it is “madness”.
    Instead the research, which will be unveiled on Wednesday and is described as one of the biggest scientific surveys of its type in Europe, found that the most effective strategy was precisely the opposite approach pursued by Patel. Generating “positive psychology” among young people was found to be significantly more effective than punitive policies when challenging “violent youth radicalisation”, defined as gang crime through to the development of extreme ideologies....

    It isn't about effectiveness. It is about making voters think that you are sticking it to the scrotes.
    Anything perceived as hand-wringing just won't wash.
    While that’s perhaps true, this government is going to be around long enough to be judged on outcomes.
  • Barnesian said:

    Cars will not be needed to transport heavy shopping as it increasingly moves on-line. Local Authorities should discourage cars and provide frequent bus services, possibly subsidised. They already do for OAPs.

    On-line shopping will inevitably win for material substances (potatoes) and services that can be downloaded (music). But on-line is useless for personal services (haircut, nails) and particularly for experiences (cafes, bars) and products that you want to touch, feel, try or put on before buying. Also for things you want NOW - today's newspaper or a pint of milk.

    I could not do my weekly shop without getting a lift (or a taxi) home from the supermarket, and most customers are in the same position. Nor can I take the morning off work to be in when the lorry turns up with the spuds I've ordered online in this brave new world.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Kind of on topic, if people are to celebrate, shouldn't it be done locally in small pubs rather than a congregation in a big city?

    A great point. And it would be far more appropriate given that Brexit is a provincial thing and the centre of resistance to it was London.

    For Leavers to celebrate Brexit Day in the capital is like scoring for Man U at Anfield and running the length of the pitch to celebrate in front of the Kop.

    Really tacky - and possibly slightly dangerous too.
    We are having a Brexit Party in Epping for local Tories on Friday night but we are paying for it ourselves
    I presume Remain voters aren't on the guest list?
    There will be Remain voters there who respect democracy (including me)
    Enjoy the evening. As a Leave voter, I'll probably be in bed by 11.
    Some of us will be four time zones ahead, and will have to stay up until 3am to raise a glass!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Alistair said:

    Why is Fury a favourite over Wilder?

    Because they think he can outbox Wilder and, as we saw last time, if he gets tagged he can get up again.

    I would back Wilder, that said.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    isam said:

    It would be interesting to see how the average age of a town affects how it looks and feels, and the general levels of satisfaction within it.

    There is a generational aspect. The move online is being led by the young. The shops that are being lost are valued by the old. So the loss is being felt by a group who do not see the compensating gains.
    Town Centres should be half the size they were ten years ago in ten years time, with the failing shops used for housing. Hopefully fewer pound shops and more independent specialist outlets
    It’s ironic that people are complaining about a lack of housing and a glut of empty retail space simultaneously.
    Also ironic that people worry about the environment (or say they do) but also want to drive their cars into town centres.

    And, yes, I am one of those hypocrites!

    Thanks for the article.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    DavidL said:

    Denly is the one needing some runs. At the moment he looks the one to give way when Burns is fit.

    Well done for cursing Denly :D
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    DavidL said:

    Denly is the one needing some runs. At the moment he looks the one to give way when Burns is fit.

    Denly you definitely jinxed...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    It would be interesting to see how the average age of a town affects how it looks and feels, and the general levels of satisfaction within it.

    There is a generational aspect. The move online is being led by the young. The shops that are being lost are valued by the old. So the loss is being felt by a group who do not see the compensating gains.
    Town Centres should be half the size they were ten years ago in ten years time, with the failing shops used for housing. Hopefully fewer pound shops and more independent specialist outlets
    It’s ironic that people are complaining about a lack of housing and a glut of empty retail space simultaneously.
    Also ironic that people worry about the environment (or say they do) but also want to drive their cars into town centres.

    And, yes, I am one of those hypocrites!

    Thanks for the article.
    The electrification of transport will do quite a bit to transform urban centres. Asthmatics might be able to live in London again...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    No state control of most of the economy = socialism, monarchy is even more the essence of conservatism than free market liberalism
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605

    Barnesian said:

    Cars will not be needed to transport heavy shopping as it increasingly moves on-line. Local Authorities should discourage cars and provide frequent bus services, possibly subsidised. They already do for OAPs.

    On-line shopping will inevitably win for material substances (potatoes) and services that can be downloaded (music). But on-line is useless for personal services (haircut, nails) and particularly for experiences (cafes, bars) and products that you want to touch, feel, try or put on before buying. Also for things you want NOW - today's newspaper or a pint of milk.

    I could not do my weekly shop without getting a lift (or a taxi) home from the supermarket, and most customers are in the same position. Nor can I take the morning off work to be in when the lorry turns up with the spuds I've ordered online in this brave new world.
    I don't do a weekly shop. I shop more or less daily and never use my car for shopping. I walk or take the bus.
    For on-line shopping, I give a code to the deliverer that gives them access to a secure place at home if I'm not in.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    HYUFD said:
    Just four and a half years and she gets the all-time record. World super-heavyweight monarch, unifying all belts.

    Why the glum look, Charles?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Kind of on topic, if people are to celebrate, shouldn't it be done locally in small pubs rather than a congregation in a big city?

    A great point. And it would be far more appropriate given that Brexit is a provincial thing and the centre of resistance to it was London.

    For Leavers to celebrate Brexit Day in the capital is like scoring for Man U at Anfield and running the length of the pitch to celebrate in front of the Kop.

    Really tacky - and possibly slightly dangerous too.
    We are having a Brexit Party in Epping for local Tories on Friday night but we are paying for it ourselves
    I presume Remain voters aren't on the guest list?
    There will be Remain voters there who respect democracy (including me)
    Enjoy the evening. As a Leave voter, I'll probably be in bed by 11.
    I'll be wearing a black tie and a glum expression to mark the occasion.
    As a tribute to Terry Jones?

    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/monty-pythons-terry-jones-joins-the-choir-invisible/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,231
    kle4 said:

    There's empathy for seeing a dream fall apart, and then there's watching people create a musical montage video with soft focus shots of the dear leader whilst they wallow. The grief and upset of people who are very fearful for the future and who believed so greatly in the cause I respect totally.

    What I don't respect is adolescent worship of political figures, particularly when people are ignoring negatives about that person because they are projecting a dream on to that person. It's why I have no issue with people who respect Thatcher, but think people who to this day compare every new leader to her and consider what she would so and how no one measures up, are weirdly obsessed.

    There are great political leaders out there. There are leaders who might not be great but whose vision was beloved by many. These sorts of people might be respected across the political divide, or merely loved by one side, which is not to be dismissed. But they are just normal men and women, and sometimes a lot more normal than their worhshippers are prepared to admit. Respect, even admiration and loyalty, is understandable. Worship is not. And tribute videos set to music and stock images, is worship. I don't respect that one bit.

    It is a bit adolescent, yes, but it's strictly for the more committed Corbynite to indulge in some nostalgia at his passing. Because he has passed politically - he and 'it' is over.

    I half liked it (unlike you I'm a sucker for this sort of thing) and half thought "oh dear". It's also quite funny due to the strained version of the song. The Kop it is not. Guy sounded on his deathbed. Touch of the Laurence Foxes about it.

    But, OK, I accept your view as the more mature and enlightened one.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    HYUFD said:
    Except, as that table clearly shows, she won't overtake him until tomorrow or Tuesday (depending on how you count). She's clearly reigned 1 day less.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    "Biden is a singular character in this field, because his politics are not about ideology or policy but about emotions."

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign-chronicles/joe-bidens-battle-with-bernie-sanders-for-working-class-voters
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Quincel said:

    HYUFD said:
    Except, as that table clearly shows, she won't overtake him until tomorrow or Tuesday (depending on how you count). She's clearly reigned 1 day less.
    It’s one more. The confusion comes from the impact of leap days.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484
    malcolmg said:

    It is puerile bollox and just another Tory lie.
    Puerile and/or dishonest is what you call something you want to attack but can't find anything objectionable about. So this coin is a success. Hoorah!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484

    Barnesian said:

    Cars will not be needed to transport heavy shopping as it increasingly moves on-line. Local Authorities should discourage cars and provide frequent bus services, possibly subsidised. They already do for OAPs.

    On-line shopping will inevitably win for material substances (potatoes) and services that can be downloaded (music). But on-line is useless for personal services (haircut, nails) and particularly for experiences (cafes, bars) and products that you want to touch, feel, try or put on before buying. Also for things you want NOW - today's newspaper or a pint of milk.

    I could not do my weekly shop without getting a lift (or a taxi) home from the supermarket, and most customers are in the same position. Nor can I take the morning off work to be in when the lorry turns up with the spuds I've ordered online in this brave new world.
    They deliver on evenings and weekends.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Quincel said:

    HYUFD said:
    Except, as that table clearly shows, she won't overtake him until tomorrow or Tuesday (depending on how you count). She's clearly reigned 1 day less.
    Forget that, in 45 days she steams past Kʼinich Janaabʼ Pakal, to take fourth place - and piss off the 7th century Mayan.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,231
    TOPPING said:

    I just watched it. It was excellent. The bit with the wreath was especially poignant.

    If you really did watch it my name is Digby. And to prove you didn't -

    Snippet of the song being sung as Jeremy was marching on the 70s demo, Was it?

    (a) through a storm, hold your head up high
    (b) sweet silver song of a lark
    (c) dreams be tossed and blown
    (d) none of the above
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    edited January 2020
    When is Len's term of office over? The Labour party need rid of his baleful presence.

    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1221367578867662849

  • IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    It is puerile bollox and just another Tory lie.
    And the typeface looks the sort of thing I imagine Ratners used to go for.

    Will there be a companion coin to mark deMeghanification?
    Looks perfectly pitched at the Sunday Express 'buy our lavishly tooled X to commemorate Y' market.
  • Golly, I hadn't realised Marxist/Stalinist/Commie CorbLab was centre left. Someone better tell the BJ party and assorted UK tabloids about the misapprehension under which they've been 'labouring'.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484

    malcolmg said:

    It is puerile bollox and just another Tory lie.
    Puerile and/or dishonest is what you call something you want to attack but can't find anything objectionable about. So this coin is a success. Hoorah!
    That and criticising the font of course. There's always that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes but Westminster has to agree and the Tories won a UK wide majority with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 after the 'once in a generation' (in Salmond's words) referendum in 2014 voted to stay in the UK
    I'd wait to see ALL the questions asked in the poll - that they led with this one may be telling.....
    Indeed and only 50% of Scots actually think Holyrood should be able to decide when to call an indyref2 even if there is a Nationalist majority at the 2021 Holyrood elections

    https://www.progressscotland.org/research/scots-back-independence-referendum-powers-for-holyrood
    Strange poll that only asks two questions......
  • kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    I just watched it. It was excellent. The bit with the wreath was especially poignant.

    If you really did watch it my name is Digby. And to prove you didn't -

    Snippet of the song being sung as Jeremy was marching on the 70s demo, Was it?

    (a) through a storm, hold your head up high
    (b) sweet silver song of a lark
    (c) dreams be tossed and blown
    (d) none of the above
    A to C are all the same song.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    On the topic of Alastair Meeks' article, it's very good and I agree with most of it. One paragraph that irks though:

    "The opposition, however, would probably be ill-advised to place too much emphasis on towns. If the government gives proper attention to it, it has a good chance of making a difference to towns’ prospects that the public gives it credit for. Labour could easily see a focus on towns backfire on them."

    That presupposes that the sole purpose of opposition is to make the government look bad. If the opposition is successful in changing the agenda of the governing party, that's a good thing even if it doesn't help the opposition win the next general election.

    It's too early to say whether the Tories are just making symbolic gestures, or whether they are serious about this issue. If it turns out to be the latter, then as a Labour member I'll be very happy about that.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    isam said:

    In Havering there seems to be an abundance of "Turkish" shops opening up. I wonder if this is due to the "Hellbanianz" running London's drug trade out of Barking

    🙄
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769


    "Labour haven’t really addressed any of this yet, even in the face of a huge defeat. Some activists still sing that Seven Nation Army song; some of them talk about becoming a ‘social movement’; Corbyn as their just-about-still-leader has spoken of becoming the ‘resistance’ to Tory rule. For too many left media outlets and bloviating outriders, everyone hates the Tories, and those voters who don’t are grinding the faces of the poor. When you’ve just achieved less than a third of the vote on a 67% turnout, maybe it’s you that people don’t like much – or trust to help those in need. Just a thought."

    https://capx.co/the-labour-party-still-doesnt-get-it/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    nunu2 said:
    Disaster for the Dems if this continues.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Andrew Adonis doing his best to make the pro-EU movement seem incredibly childish:

    https://www.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1221408246650621952
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    kicorse said:

    On the topic of Alastair Meeks' article, it's very good and I agree with most of it. One paragraph that irks though:

    "The opposition, however, would probably be ill-advised to place too much emphasis on towns. If the government gives proper attention to it, it has a good chance of making a difference to towns’ prospects that the public gives it credit for. Labour could easily see a focus on towns backfire on them."

    That presupposes that the sole purpose of opposition is to make the government look bad. If the opposition is successful in changing the agenda of the governing party, that's a good thing even if it doesn't help the opposition win the next general election.

    It's too early to say whether the Tories are just making symbolic gestures, or whether they are serious about this issue. If it turns out to be the latter, then as a Labour member I'll be very happy about that.

    Well said. I assume it would annoy them if Tories get credit for something, but there are occasions when oppositions even vote with the government on issues because contrary to the oft repeated phrase, it is not the purpose of the opposition to automatically oppose simply for the sake of it (though obviously they usually will as they have a different view, and fair enough), and if there is to be a revival of towns, then the country would benefit from it happening even under the Tories, it can hardly wait 5 years.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    edited January 2020

    HYUFD said:
    Just four and a half years and she gets the all-time record. World super-heavyweight monarch, unifying all belts.

    Why the glum look, Charles?
    How long do you think it will be before people start getting suspicious about her immortality? I think once she is in her 120s she will have to openly reveal herself as the God-Empress of Mankind.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    If she persists in the fiction that she can have Indyref2 this year, her reputation may never recover. You can see why it’s hard to admit the game’s a bogie though.

    Besides letting down the SNP members she has marched up so many hills, Ms Sturgeon said a vote for the SNP last month would stop Brexit, stop Boris, and deliver Indyref2. The first and second didn’t pan out, leaving her clinging to the third.

    If she gives up on that too, it’s three strikes. Not a good look for a leader under daily attack for over-promising and under-delivering in government.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18185973.tom-gordon-nicola-sturgeons-next-steps-put-judgment-line/
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484

    If she persists in the fiction that she can have Indyref2 this year, her reputation may never recover. You can see why it’s hard to admit the game’s a bogie though.

    Besides letting down the SNP members she has marched up so many hills, Ms Sturgeon said a vote for the SNP last month would stop Brexit, stop Boris, and deliver Indyref2. The first and second didn’t pan out, leaving her clinging to the third.

    If she gives up on that too, it’s three strikes. Not a good look for a leader under daily attack for over-promising and under-delivering in government.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18185973.tom-gordon-nicola-sturgeons-next-steps-put-judgment-line/

    I don't think it damages Nicola particularly. No more than the Benn Act damaged Boris. People don't blame her.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    There are lots of factors. In my view, the one that gets discussed too little, relative to its importance, is self-righteousness. That applies in all of these countries, and also in the USA, where the results aren't as objectively bad, but where the most transparently corrupt and incompetent president in history has a very good chance of being re-elected.

    This is why people who go on about the "hard left" miss the point. The self-righteousness is far more associated with liberalism than socialism, is as common on the centre-left as among Corbynites, and is why Phillips wouldn't have been any better than Long-Bailey.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    nunu2 said:
    Disaster for the Dems if this continues.
    Dems will probably try to rig it somehow.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    An awakening of white nationalism two generations after the shadow of Nazism was put to the sword, renewed and legitimised by, among others, Matthew Goodwin. Why else do his populist nationalisms exclude the most successful populist nationalist in Europe, Emmanuel Macron?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    If she persists in the fiction that she can have Indyref2 this year, her reputation may never recover. You can see why it’s hard to admit the game’s a bogie though.

    Besides letting down the SNP members she has marched up so many hills, Ms Sturgeon said a vote for the SNP last month would stop Brexit, stop Boris, and deliver Indyref2. The first and second didn’t pan out, leaving her clinging to the third.

    If she gives up on that too, it’s three strikes. Not a good look for a leader under daily attack for over-promising and under-delivering in government.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18185973.tom-gordon-nicola-sturgeons-next-steps-put-judgment-line/

    I don't think it damages Nicola particularly. No more than the Benn Act damaged Boris. People don't blame her.
    Sounds plausible. Opponents can say he/she made impossible promises, or was ineffective, but at the end of the day people like the professed intent, so long as the enemy are seen as the reason they were unsuccessful.
  • Gabs3 said:

    Andrew Adonis doing his best to make the pro-EU movement seem incredibly childish:

    https://www.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1221408246650621952

    I'll use it as my avatar then? :)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    nunu2 said:
    A decent sized sample for a change, and some interesting subsidiary questions. The "angry old man" image of Sanders that we tend to get over here is belied by his being the most-liked candidate, as well as the candidate most likely to get second preferences from the others. But a significant chunk of Biden's vote is people who think he's got the best chance to beat Trump. That could either strengthen (and pull across liberals) or quite possibly weaken (if other candidates still seem to be doing as well in polls).
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    kicorse said:

    There are lots of factors. In my view, the one that gets discussed too little, relative to its importance, is self-righteousness. That applies in all of these countries, and also in the USA, where the results aren't as objectively bad, but where the most transparently corrupt and incompetent president in history has a very good chance of being re-elected.

    This is why people who go on about the "hard left" miss the point. The self-righteousness is far more associated with liberalism than socialism, is as common on the centre-left as among Corbynites, and is why Phillips wouldn't have been any better than Long-Bailey.
    It's also a preference for undiluted wine in countries with PR or similar (which is most of them). If you're green/left, you vote for a Green party (Germany, Austria) or a Left party (Germany, Sweden, Netherlands). Why wouldn't you?

    The FUNDAMENTAL problem of centrists is the lack of a convincing positive narrative, such as that which Blair offered, and perhaps Macron. You can't win purely on the basis that you're not a worse option.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Gabs3 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Just four and a half years and she gets the all-time record. World super-heavyweight monarch, unifying all belts.

    Why the glum look, Charles?
    How long do you think it will be before people start getting suspicious about her immortality? I think once she is in her 120s she will have to openly reveal herself as the God-Empress of Mankind.
    Charles will have a search made of the attics of Buck House for that picture of her that is doing all the ageing......
  • test :innocent:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    nunu2 said:

    nunu2 said:
    Disaster for the Dems if this continues.
    Dems will probably try to rig it somehow.
    With a plan to impose Hillary?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    EPG said:

    An awakening of white nationalism two generations after the shadow of Nazism was put to the sword, renewed and legitimised by, among others, Matthew Goodwin. Why else do his populist nationalisms exclude the most successful populist nationalist in Europe, Emmanuel Macron?
    You seem to be forgetting Angela Merkel's responsibility for renewing right-wing nationalism across Europe...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,231
    edited January 2020
    kicorse said:

    On the topic of Alastair Meeks' article, it's very good and I agree with most of it. One paragraph that irks though:

    "The opposition, however, would probably be ill-advised to place too much emphasis on towns. If the government gives proper attention to it, it has a good chance of making a difference to towns’ prospects that the public gives it credit for. Labour could easily see a focus on towns backfire on them."

    That presupposes that the sole purpose of opposition is to make the government look bad. If the opposition is successful in changing the agenda of the governing party, that's a good thing even if it doesn't help the opposition win the next general election.

    It's too early to say whether the Tories are just making symbolic gestures, or whether they are serious about this issue. If it turns out to be the latter, then as a Labour member I'll be very happy about that.

    Yes, I'm happy for a Conservative government to implement Labour policies.

    The "winning the argument" thing gets mocked but in this particular sense it is not a meaningless or silly notion.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435

    kicorse said:

    There are lots of factors. In my view, the one that gets discussed too little, relative to its importance, is self-righteousness. That applies in all of these countries, and also in the USA, where the results aren't as objectively bad, but where the most transparently corrupt and incompetent president in history has a very good chance of being re-elected.

    This is why people who go on about the "hard left" miss the point. The self-righteousness is far more associated with liberalism than socialism, is as common on the centre-left as among Corbynites, and is why Phillips wouldn't have been any better than Long-Bailey.
    It's also a preference for undiluted wine in countries with PR or similar (which is most of them). If you're green/left, you vote for a Green party (Germany, Austria) or a Left party (Germany, Sweden, Netherlands). Why wouldn't you?

    The FUNDAMENTAL problem of centrists is the lack of a convincing positive narrative, such as that which Blair offered, and perhaps Macron. You can't win purely on the basis that you're not a worse option.
    Good point, yeah. The first one would suggest not much applicability to the UK. The second one was probably a major factor in the 2015 result, and the 2017 improvement.

    Although those are reasons why the centre-left might do badly in any period. It needs to be coupled to something that's happening right now (e.g. dissatisfaction with the establishment) to explain why recent results are particularly bad.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,231

    A to C are all the same song.

    Yep. YNWA. The Anfield anthem. If you watch the vid, what it is is stills of JC at key moments in his career set to an 'unplugged' acoustic cover of that song. It's as if he's died. And perhaps, politically, he has.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    My issue with the 50p Brexit coin is the disingenuous misquote from Thomas Jefferson. The words were chosen because the other more relevant to Brexiteers half of the phrase goes, "entangling alliances with none". But they don't quite say it.

    As Brexit has turned out to be an exercise in disingenuousness, the coin is actually fine, as a symbol.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. 43, disingenuousness is indeed fitting, given the Lisbon Treaty paved the way for what followed, and Brown signed us up to it after all three (then) major parties promised us a referendum on it*.

    *Technically the Constitution, but the content is practically identical.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Gabs3 said:

    Andrew Adonis doing his best to make the pro-EU movement seem incredibly childish:

    https://www.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1221408246650621952

    I'll use it as my avatar then? :)
    What part of the wording does Adonis not agree with:

    Peace
    Prosperity
    or Friendship with all nations?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    On a less partisan note, politicians would've been better served by being more honest with the electorate in the long term. Feigning scepticism in opposition and acting compliantly in office, using the EU as a scapegoat and never explaining what the advantages of membership are (and there are some, just as there are associated costs) could not help but stoke scepticism amongst the electorate.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2020

    On a less partisan note, politicians would've been better served by being more honest with the electorate in the long term. Feigning scepticism in opposition and acting compliantly in office, using the EU as a scapegoat and never explaining what the advantages of membership are (and there are some, just as there are associated costs) could not help but stoke scepticism amongst the electorate.

    Fair enough, MD. No-one has a monopoly on disingenuousness.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited January 2020

    Quincel said:

    HYUFD said:
    Except, as that table clearly shows, she won't overtake him until tomorrow or Tuesday (depending on how you count). She's clearly reigned 1 day less.
    It’s one more. The confusion comes from the impact of leap days.
    Good shout. 2000 was a leap year, as was 1600. 1900, 1800 and 1700 were not.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    kicorse said:

    There are lots of factors. In my view, the one that gets discussed too little, relative to its importance, is self-righteousness. That applies in all of these countries, and also in the USA, where the results aren't as objectively bad, but where the most transparently corrupt and incompetent president in history has a very good chance of being re-elected.

    This is why people who go on about the "hard left" miss the point. The self-righteousness is far more associated with liberalism than socialism, is as common on the centre-left as among Corbynites, and is why Phillips wouldn't have been any better than Long-Bailey.
    I think this is a very astute post. The question is where the greater self-righteousness comes from. Here's my theory:

    One advantage the right wing has always had over the left is that the right fights for the status quo, or the status quo before a recent change, while the left fights for an ideal future. The latter is a lot scarier to people as there is a bigger gap to what we currently have. Successful parties of both sides have had to moderate their policy platforms and messages to win over people but it is even more important for the left because of the bigger gap. This moderation has usually been forced on them by talking to people outside their bubble. However social media encourages bubble thinking and thus makes the left further away from the median voter.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Stocky said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Andrew Adonis doing his best to make the pro-EU movement seem incredibly childish:

    https://www.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1221408246650621952

    I'll use it as my avatar then? :)
    What part of the wording does Adonis not agree with:

    Peace
    Prosperity
    or Friendship with all nations?
    Adonis steps up - and punches all nations in the mouth.

    That's Rejoiners for you......
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    An important milestone has been hit today in American polling.

    For the first time in 3 years Trump has briefly hit his 2016 vote share of 45.6 in the approval average:
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    That peerage looks to be a long time coming.

    < controversial >
    It’s almost like when Jimmy Savile died, and almost immediately everyone who was a victim of his behaviour came forward to tell their story.
    < / controversial >
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. 43, it's worth remembering, for both sides (if they remain, ahem) going forward.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484
    kle4 said:

    If she persists in the fiction that she can have Indyref2 this year, her reputation may never recover. You can see why it’s hard to admit the game’s a bogie though.

    Besides letting down the SNP members she has marched up so many hills, Ms Sturgeon said a vote for the SNP last month would stop Brexit, stop Boris, and deliver Indyref2. The first and second didn’t pan out, leaving her clinging to the third.

    If she gives up on that too, it’s three strikes. Not a good look for a leader under daily attack for over-promising and under-delivering in government.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18185973.tom-gordon-nicola-sturgeons-next-steps-put-judgment-line/

    I don't think it damages Nicola particularly. No more than the Benn Act damaged Boris. People don't blame her.
    Sounds plausible. Opponents can say he/she made impossible promises, or was ineffective, but at the end of the day people like the professed intent, so long as the enemy are seen as the reason they were unsuccessful.
    It is too much indy that will do for Nicola, not too little.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited January 2020
    Sandpit said:

    That peerage looks to be a long time coming.
    The problem for Bercow is that his very public persona has been that of being visibly short tempered and not above making personal comments to put people down. Whether people enjoyed him doing so or felt it was justified in light of the targets of his ire, it is as a result hard not to believe he is a bully given his public behaviour toward others.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    ..
    Stocky said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Andrew Adonis doing his best to make the pro-EU movement seem incredibly childish:

    https://www.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1221408246650621952

    I'll use it as my avatar then? :)
    What part of the wording does Adonis not agree with:

    Peace
    Prosperity
    or Friendship with all nations?
    Maybe because it's false ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    speedy2 said:

    An important milestone has been hit today in American polling.

    For the first time in 3 years Trump has briefly hit his 2016 vote share of 45.6 in the approval average:
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

    While if the polls are to be believed the Dems self-indulgence with Bernie Sanders.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
    Stocky said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Andrew Adonis doing his best to make the pro-EU movement seem incredibly childish:

    https://www.twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1221408246650621952

    I'll use it as my avatar then? :)
    What part of the wording does Adonis not agree with:

    Peace
    Prosperity
    or Friendship with all nations?
    Prosperity? That's a laugh. When we crash out of the SM and CU our economy will go down the toilet.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    Gabs3 said:

    kicorse said:

    There are lots of factors. In my view, the one that gets discussed too little, relative to its importance, is self-righteousness. That applies in all of these countries, and also in the USA, where the results aren't as objectively bad, but where the most transparently corrupt and incompetent president in history has a very good chance of being re-elected.

    This is why people who go on about the "hard left" miss the point. The self-righteousness is far more associated with liberalism than socialism, is as common on the centre-left as among Corbynites, and is why Phillips wouldn't have been any better than Long-Bailey.
    I think this is a very astute post. The question is where the greater self-righteousness comes from. Here's my theory:

    One advantage the right wing has always had over the left is that the right fights for the status quo, or the status quo before a recent change, while the left fights for an ideal future. The latter is a lot scarier to people as there is a bigger gap to what we currently have. Successful parties of both sides have had to moderate their policy platforms and messages to win over people but it is even more important for the left because of the bigger gap. This moderation has usually been forced on them by talking to people outside their bubble. However social media encourages bubble thinking and thus makes the left further away from the median voter.
    I think you're right that this is why self-righteousness is more common on the left. Both due to the left being on the side of change, and due to the bubbles that form (there are plenty of bubbles on the right, of course, but they don't tend to have the same motivation).

    One thing that I think the left need to decouple is how radicalism of policy and how strident they are in attitude. For example, there's enough evidence from 2017 and from polling that nationalisation is not electoral poison, provided it's presented with an air of calm. I would guess the same is true on the liberal axis (e.g. transgender rights), although I'm less confident of that.

    And apologies for the unnecessary dig at Jess Phillips. I know you were supporting her.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    This thread is not going to last five days.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,769
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,714

    Mr. 43, disingenuousness is indeed fitting, given the Lisbon Treaty paved the way for what followed, and Brown signed us up to it after all three (then) major parties promised us a referendum on it*.

    *Technically the Constitution, but the content is practically identical.

    All the substantive things that Brexiteers claim we need to leave long predate the Lisbon Treaty, so your argument is a model of disingenuousness.
This discussion has been closed.