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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sunday Morning Polling Round Up

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited December 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sunday Morning Polling Round Up

There were a couple of polls out last night, both seeing UKIP score figures they haven’t hit since the summer, after their success in the local elections. I think with Dave talking about the expected immigration from Romania and Bulgaria this week gone, can probably explain UKIP’s increase.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited December 2013
    FPT:

    YouGov on Scotland:

    OA (Scotland)
    Independence
    Support: 27 (31)
    Oppose: 50 (57)

    How likely?
    Likely: 31 (27)
    Unlikely: 55 (59)

    Better or worse off if Scotland independent:
    E&W
    Better: 28 (8)
    Same: 30 (32)
    Worse: 23 (42)

    Scotland
    Better: 13 (25)
    Same: 9 (9)
    Worse: 62 (54)

    EU:
    Reapply to join: 58 (47)
    Automatic Member: 21 (35)

    England & Wales (Scotland)
    Net support for:
    Keep getting BBC: -1 (+48)
    Keep pound: -5 (+42)
    Keep Queen: +17 (+22)
    Ban Scots MPs from Westminster votes post referendum: +53 (+44)
    Ban Scots Lords ditto: +57 (+39)

    Also YouGov vs Year Ago:

    Con: 30 (-1)
    Lab: 38 (-6)
    LibD: 10 (-)
    UKIP: 15 (+5)
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    tim said:

    Lynton Crosby doing a great job for UKIP
    Go Lynton, get those sad Tories excited about immigration

    And just as many sad Labour voters excited too (if these two polls are accurate). You rethinking your party membership?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish . Whether this effects the VI results I do not know . For example according to the tables 521 of the sample are voting UKIP which if true would put them around 35% and an astonishing 851 of the sample supposedly voted Lib Dem at the 2010 GE which would have have given them 500 plus seats in the H of C . The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish . Whether this effects the VI results I do not know . For example according to the tables 521 of the sample are voting UKIP which if true would put them around 35% and an astonishing 851 of the sample supposedly voted Lib Dem at the 2010 GE which would have have given them 500 plus seats in the H of C . The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .

    Are the Lib Dems going to do anything about their dismal poll rating? Or have they given up?

    8 or 10 percent is shocking.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    edited December 2013
    OT John Hemming is a village idiot. He's saying the government are stealing foreign babies to meet adoption targets. The poor interviewer can't get a logical thought out of him. I think they said he was an MP
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    @MarkSenior

    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish .

    ...

    The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .


    2010 Lib Dems?

  • FPT (Calotta)

    Best YouGov for UKIP since June, and interesting to see how parties have done over p12m:
    (vs year ago)
    Con: 30 (-1)
    Lab: 38 (-6)
    LibD: 10 (-)
    UKIP: 15 (+5)

    Where are UKIP votes coming from? Are they previously Don't Knows?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    edited December 2013
    Jonathan said:

    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish . Whether this effects the VI results I do not know . For example according to the tables 521 of the sample are voting UKIP which if true would put them around 35% and an astonishing 851 of the sample supposedly voted Lib Dem at the 2010 GE which would have have given them 500 plus seats in the H of C . The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .

    Are the Lib Dems going to do anything about their dismal poll rating? Or have they given up?

    8 or 10 percent is shocking.
    8 or 10% is a lot more than where the Lib Dems polled mid parliament in 1987-1992, and about the same as in 1992-to-1997. That doesn't mean they're not going to get slaughtered in 18 months time; but nor does it mean they are.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish . Whether this effects the VI results I do not know . For example according to the tables 521 of the sample are voting UKIP which if true would put them around 35% and an astonishing 851 of the sample supposedly voted Lib Dem at the 2010 GE which would have have given them 500 plus seats in the H of C . The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .

    Are the Lib Dems going to do anything about their dismal poll rating? Or have they given up?

    8 or 10 percent is shocking.
    8 or 10% is a lot more than where the Lib Dems polled mid parliament in 1987-1992, and about the same as in 1992-to-1997. That doesn't mean they're not going to get slaughtered in 18 months time; but nor does it mean they are.
    I find that rather complacent.
    What would it take for Lib Dems to get off their backsides?

    A leader on minus fifty and a popular rating at ten percent or under is oddly not enough.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    Pretty clear that talking about a party's USP raises its support: even though the specific proposals made by Cameron are supported by large majorities, they're seen as too weak by the sample which accordingly is reminded to vote UKIP. Note also that the SNP is up to 30 in the YG subsample, almost certainly because of the debate on independence, even though the paper doesn't show progress on the issue itself. In the same way, when the Tories tried an offensive on the NHS, Labour's rating went up. One can try to change people's minds about another party's strength on an issue, but electorally it's usually best to talk about something else.

    There is a sharp negative shift on the economy:-17 net on Government handling it well (down 6) and -40 on the state of the economy (also down 6). Not sure if that's the Carney statement or just a sample effect.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    ScotsPolFed ‏@Scotspolfed 5m

    Members at scene of #helicoptercrash have spoken of their immense gratitude to people & businesses in Glasgow for kindness shown #Clutha

    ScotsPolFed ‏@Scotspolfed 8m

    Efforts continue this morning for removal of #PSHelicopter & recovery of remains from #clutha pub in Glasgow. A day of sorrow for all
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish . Whether this effects the VI results I do not know . For example according to the tables 521 of the sample are voting UKIP which if true would put them around 35% and an astonishing 851 of the sample supposedly voted Lib Dem at the 2010 GE which would have have given them 500 plus seats in the H of C . The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .

    Are the Lib Dems going to do anything about their dismal poll rating? Or have they given up?

    8 or 10 percent is shocking.
    8 or 10% is a lot more than where the Lib Dems polled mid parliament in 1987-1992, and about the same as in 1992-to-1997. That doesn't mean they're not going to get slaughtered in 18 months time; but nor does it mean they are.
    I find that rather complacent.
    What would it take for Lib Dems to get off their backsides?

    A leader on minus fifty and a popular rating at ten percent or under is oddly not enough.
    Errr. I'm not a Lib Dem. I'm just noting that taking poll numbers of a minor party which tends to sag mid-term and pointing your fingers and saying "nah nah you idiots" is not very interesting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    tim said:
    Here is a complete list of people who do not think John Hemming, MP is a complete idiot:

    1. errrr....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ukip support could rise all the way to the Euro elections and beyond.

    Doesn't sound like there is going to be any blue meat in the autumn statement either - just fuzzy tinkering. We shall see.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    Roger said:

    OT John Hemming is a village idiot. He's saying the government are stealing foreign babies to meet adoption targets. The poor interviewer can't get a logical thought out of him. I think they said he was an MP

    He is a complete embarrassment. It seems that after the LibDems lost Lembit Opik they decided they needed a new official idiot.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    rcs1000 said:

    tim said:
    Here is a complete list of people who do not think John Hemming, MP is a complete idiot:

    1. errrr....
    From the time I had to use him he was a good consitituency MP. Colourful perhaps but would actually do stuff when you asked him.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Unfortunately , the data tables for this Yougov poll are complete gibberish . Whether this effects the VI results I do not know . For example according to the tables 521 of the sample are voting UKIP which if true would put them around 35% and an astonishing 851 of the sample supposedly voted Lib Dem at the 2010 GE which would have have given them 500 plus seats in the H of C . The sample consisted of 945 males and 117 females and presumably 700 others of indeterminate sex . .

    Are the Lib Dems going to do anything about their dismal poll rating? Or have they given up?

    8 or 10 percent is shocking.
    8 or 10% is a lot more than where the Lib Dems polled mid parliament in 1987-1992, and about the same as in 1992-to-1997. That doesn't mean they're not going to get slaughtered in 18 months time; but nor does it mean they are.
    I find that rather complacent.
    What would it take for Lib Dems to get off their backsides?

    A leader on minus fifty and a popular rating at ten percent or under is oddly not enough.
    Errr. I'm not a Lib Dem. I'm just noting that taking poll numbers of a minor party which tends to sag mid-term and pointing your fingers and saying "nah nah you idiots" is not very interesting.
    I didn't say you were a LibDem.

    The situation in late 80s,90s was very different.

    Their are no Blair coat tails to ride upon. Their own leader is mortally wounded.
    The Lib Dems are not fighting their first or second election. They are a known quantity with serious political problems to address.
    They cannot count on protest votes.

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

  • Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    @Tim

    "Lynton Crosby doing a great job for UKIP"

    It looks like it.

    Perhaps the Tories should follow Avis's lead. It was clear their generic car advertising was doing more for the market leader Hertz than for themselves so they started the now famous "We're not the biggest so we try harder" and gave their customers a free map!

    The campaign was a huge success.

    Perhaps Lynton can think of a way of attacking immigrants that makes the Tories sound more brutal. The GO HOME vans round immigrant areas was probably along the right lines
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited December 2013
    tim said:

    @Roger

    Remember what Hemming and Booker are

    Hemming is a fool, but there is a serious issue about the family courts operating as a law unto themselves. This is a boil, it is now recognised at the highest level, which must be lanced.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    The ALDE party (the cross european Liberal and Democrats party) have just finished their party congress, held at Canary Wharf.

    Clegg was one of the key note speakers.

    Very little publicity though.....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    They're is not much more than a year to the start of the long campaign. There is actually very little time.

    Of course the new leader will inherit the strategic problems , but with a rating of minus fifty what is clear is that the current leader had no chance whatsoever of solving them.

  • The most interesting polling today is the Scottish independence polling. In a big week for the Yes campaign, Yes seem so far to have made no progress (except perhaps to make a few previously in the No camp decide to look again). This looks ominous for the Yes camp.
  • I do think it quite funny in a poll showing Labour 8% ahead with 18 months to go, the PB Hodges cling to the fact that Labour are down on 12 months ago. Wonder if in 18 months time when Ed is PM will they still be putting Labour 39% (-5% from 2010)?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/UK_opinion_polling_2010-2015.png
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    @Tim

    "Remember what Hemming and Booker are"

    If Booker is part of this then say no more. The man is poisonous to children's welfare and why the Telegraph keep pumping out his nonsense is a complete mystery.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712

    tim said:

    @Roger

    Remember what Hemming and Booker are

    Hemming is a fool, but there is a serious issue about the family courts operating as a law unto themselves. This is a boil, it is now recognised at the highest level, which must be lanced.
    There's a view which says that Hemming, in asking awkward questions and challenging some sacred cows is performing a useful service.

    After all, many on PB regard Boris Johnson as a seriou politician and worthy of high office!
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    They're is not much more than a year to the start of the long campaign. There is actually very little time.

    Of course the new leader will inherit the strategic problems , but with a rating of minus fifty what is clear is that the current leader had no chance whatsoever of solving them.

    Rudd did less than three months before the election. And that was without the strategic problem the LibDems have, where if they were going to try to get their left-leaning switchers back they basically need to stop voting through George Osborne's budgets.

    Unless the idea is that they're going to bring down the government and cause a snap election (which loses them a lot of the support they still have left) they can't move until late 2014 at the earliest.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
    That's the argument for Vince Cable taking over. He's getting too old to wait around.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @politicshome: Balls and Osborne go head-to-head. Caption contest #marrshow http://t.co/Y2uW7uwAwO
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The indyref tables are interesting. More E and W voters think they would be better off with Scottish independence (28%) than Scots do (25%). Clearly the Yes campaign has failed to convince on the economic argument.

    FPT:

    YouGov on Scotland:

    OA (Scotland)
    Independence
    Support: 27 (31)
    Oppose: 50 (57)

    How likely?
    Likely: 31 (27)
    Unlikely: 55 (59)

    Better or worse off if Scotland independent:
    E&W
    Better: 28 (8)
    Same: 30 (32)
    Worse: 23 (42)

    Scotland
    Better: 13 (25)
    Same: 9 (9)
    Worse: 62 (54)

    EU:
    Reapply to join: 58 (47)
    Automatic Member: 21 (35)

    England & Wales (Scotland)
    Net support for:
    Keep getting BBC: -1 (+48)
    Keep pound: -5 (+42)
    Keep Queen: +17 (+22)
    Ban Scots MPs from Westminster votes post referendum: +53 (+44)
    Ban Scots Lords ditto: +57 (+39)

    Also YouGov vs Year Ago:

    Con: 30 (-1)
    Lab: 38 (-6)
    LibD: 10 (-)
    UKIP: 15 (+5)

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
    That's the argument for Vince Cable taking over. He's getting too old to wait around.
    There are currently two politicians in the UK capable of reaching out beyond their party. Cable is one of them.


  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited December 2013
    It's a shame that no one measures depth of feeling. Is Nick Clegg hated like Luis Suarez or is he mildly disliked like Adrian Chiles? My impression now is the latter (those that choose to hate Coalition politicians are far more likely to fixate on George Osborne or Michael Gove), but we have no way of knowing.

    EDIT ignore me, I'm hungover and stupid today.
  • There's a view which says that Hemming, in asking awkward questions and challenging some sacred cows is performing a useful service.

    After all, many on PB regard Boris Johnson as a seriou politician and worthy of high office!

    I'm genuinely unsure. The problem is that Hemming, quite apart from his unsavoury character, has chosen the worst cases to take a stand on, and it is arguable that he has partially discredited the cause of reform as a result. On the other hand, the set of changes agreed by the former Lord Chief and the current President of the Family Division are a significant step in the right direction. Quite what Hemming's part was in leading to the pressure for change will remain uncertain. That said, nobody (save perhaps Rimer LJ) appears to be prepared to address the wider issue of how far the Family Division has gone native since its creation in 1971. Thorpe LJ, for instance, appears to believe that family judges ought to be able to disregard well-established principles of company law. The whole division is a madhouse.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    antifrank said:

    It's a shame that no one measures depth of feeling. Is Nick Clegg hated like Luis Suarez or is he mildly disliked like Adrian Chiles? My impression now is the latter (those that choose to hate Coalition politicians are far more likely to fixate on George Osborne or Michael Gove), but we have no way of knowing.

    EDIT ignore me, I'm hungover and stupid today.

    If Clegg were hated he would be better off. That would suggest some residual fear or respect. He currently inhabits the political no mans land of disdain, pity and ridicule.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cable would have his reputation as a sage exposed very quickly, he is the most ineffective of the LD front bench and needs to be pensioned off.

    If there is to be another leader, it needs to be from the next generation. Cable knows this, which is why he has never stood for the leadership. I expect Nick Clegg to retain his position for the forseable future. He may be disliked by some sectors of the voters but he has wider support in the party.
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
    That's the argument for Vince Cable taking over. He's getting too old to wait around.
    There are currently two politicians in the UK capable of reaching out beyond their party. Cable is one of them.


  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    @OKC

    "There's a view which says that Hemming, in asking awkward questions and challenging some sacred cows is performing a useful service."

    Hemming said on Radio5 that the police arrested an Italian woman in her hotel room then kept her incarcerated in a mental institution for a month before giving her a caesarian so they could take her baby because the government need to up their adoption figures.

    i know nothing about the case other than it's clearly not as set out by John Hemmings. When questioned on the detail he started to talk about other cases and his blog. When asked to stick to this case it was clear he knew nothing.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Even the most optimistic projections indicate the deficit will be about 90 billion by the election so Osborne has just missed his 2010 target by a country mile.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Even the most optimistic projections indicate the deficit will be about 90 billion by the election so Osborne has just missed his 2010 target by a country mile.
    Not the point though is it ? He has more money to play with and an election coming up. Go figure.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Andy Marr still suffering it would appear. Sadly he still seems unable to move his left arm.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.
    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Even the most optimistic projections indicate the deficit will be about 90 billion by the election so Osborne has just missed his 2010 target by a country mile.
    Not the point though is it ? He has more money to play with and an election coming up. Go figure.
    He plans to get a budget surplus by 2020 but he was so good at it he missed his target by 100 billion.His credibility might take a knock don`t you think?

    Once he starts giving freebies then the deficit reduction meme which is their big advantage over Labour will be blown out of the water.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    An estimate £100Bn (and falling fast) out by 2020 ?

    That's nothing - Darling was out by more than that in a single year in 2008.

    Then he cut vat - to er well make it worse.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    JackW said:

    Andy Marr still suffering it would appear. Sadly he still seems unable to move his left arm.

    He was crap before and worse now - they should point him in the directory of a history series or his fatcat pension.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
    That's the argument for Vince Cable taking over. He's getting too old to wait around.
    There are currently two politicians in the UK capable of reaching out beyond their party. Cable is one of them.


    Cable can reach out - but only leftwards.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It is 9/12 to go but the real problem is that Scots believe by a ratio of 2:1 that they will be worse off after independence, while the English believe that they will be slightly better off. The economic argument is not working for Yes.
    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Green crap to cost £80Bn by 2020

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/10486223/Britains-85-billion-bill-for-climate-policies.html

    "Vast sums are being spent on initiatives ranging from climate-change officers in local councils to the funding of “low carbon” agriculture in Colombia at a cost of £15 million alone. "
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
    That's the argument for Vince Cable taking over. He's getting too old to wait around.
    There are currently two politicians in the UK capable of reaching out beyond their party. Cable is one of them.


    Cable can reach out - but only leftwards.
    Isn't that exactly where the LD votes are? If I was a Tory, I would be desperate for a Cable leadership.
  • TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    And yet, they do nothing. Its odd.

    What's your suggestion for what they could be doing?
    Find a new leader for a Kevin Rudd style rescue mission.

    That may turn out to be a good idea (though it has serious potential to blow up in their faces, especially if Clegg won't go willingly) but if they were going to do it it's far too early. The new leader just ends up with the same strategic problems as the old one.
    Would anybody really take on the political stiffing they are going to get in 2015, when they can blame it all on Clegg? Surely they would want to be seen as a phoenix from the ashes?
    That's the argument for Vince Cable taking over. He's getting too old to wait around.
    There are currently two politicians in the UK capable of reaching out beyond their party. Cable is one of them.


    Cable can reach out - but only leftwards.
    I'm going from memory here I don't think that's what the polling shows.
  • SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited December 2013
    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Andy Marr still suffering it would appear. Sadly he still seems unable to move his left arm.

    He was crap before and worse now - they should point him in the directory of a history series or his fatcat pension.
    Your generosity of spirit this fine, crisp Sunday morning is noted.

    ......................................

    New ARSE 2015 General Election Projection to be issued exclusively on PB on Tuesday at 9:00am

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    tim said:

    @Roger

    Remember what Hemming and Booker are

    Hemming is a fool, but there is a serious issue about the family courts operating as a law unto themselves. This is a boil, it is now recognised at the highest level, which must be lanced.
    Have to say if even a fraction of what he said is true and all hidden by secrecy laws , it is a scandal.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    edited December 2013
    Interesting to see how the UKIP score has changed recently. Recently YouGov has shown UKIP with a small lead over the LDs, and Populus vice versa. This started narrowing with Poplus - they were level pegging two Fridays ago - and then swung the other way with a 5% lead for the LDs in the last 2 polls. Whereas YouGov has gone the other way, with the UKIP lead in the last 5 polls growing to 2-3% and now 5-6%. It will be interesting to see what Populus shows on Monday. While it's not unusual to get different polling figures from different companies, you would expect the direction of travel to be the same.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited December 2013

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Good morning, Mr. Brooke.

    The news is even better than the headline PSNB figures suggest. The figure to focus on is Central Government Net Cash Requirement. As reported in the most recent ONS Public Finances Bulletin this is:

    In October 2013, central government net cash requirement (CGNCR) was £-7.7 billion, which was £10.5 billion, or 378.8%, lower than in October 2012, when there was a CGNCR of £2.8 billion.

    For the period April 2013 to October 2013, CGNCR was £32.0 billion, which was £22.8 billion, or 41.7%, lower than in the same period the previous year, when there was a CGNCR of £54.8 billion.


    The CGNCR is the key metric which determines the Debt Management Office's schedule of Gilt Issuance: in other words actual amounts the government is borrowing and paying interest to service.

    The Autumn Statement traditionally contains a mid fiscal year revision to the DMO's financing remit. In 2012, the DMO's remit for the remainder of the 2012-13 year was to reduce gilt issuance planned in the 2012 budget by £15 bn. This year the reduction is likely to be significantly greater.

    More than any other figure in the Autumn Statement and accompanying OBR EFO update, the CGNCR and DMO remit revision will tell us what St George is planning for 2014. Effectively the amount he reduces actual borrowing will tell us how generous he is planning to be in the run-up to the GE.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I have been quite heavily involved in the negotiations commissioning round for next financial year. Funding is not yet agreed, but the attitude is much more positive and collaborative between the secondary care sector and primary care than it has been for at least a decade. I think this is because of more input from front line clinicians on both sides. I am genuinely surprised.

    Paradoxically this may be also because some of our negotiators used to work for primary care and vice versa. They have retained their insights into the other sides issues. Making people redundant and then them being re-employed in another part of the NHS may be part of the change in atmosphere.
    SMukesh said:

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    I have been quite heavily involved in the negotiations commissioning round for next financial year. Funding is not yet agreed, but the attitude is much more positive and collaborative between the secondary care sector and primary care than it has been for at least a decade. I think this is because of more input from front line clinicians on both sides. I am genuinely surprised.

    Paradoxically this may be also because some of our negotiators used to work for primary care and vice versa. They have retained their insights into the other sides issues. Making people redundant and then them being re-employed in another part of the NHS may be part of the change in atmosphere.

    SMukesh said:

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
    Tnx.I agree that GP`s commissioning services was a long overdue idea but the competition amongst the secondary services will lead to some services being swallowed up by others.

    But I am not sure whether Jeremy Hunt understands Lansley`s reforms,so it`ll be interesting to see whether he`s able to cope when trouble starts.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    The indyref tables are interesting. More E and W voters think they would be better off with Scottish independence (28%) than Scots do (25%). Clearly the Yes campaign has failed to convince on the economic argument.

    FPT:

    YouGov on Scotland:

    OA (Scotland)
    Independence
    Support: 27 (31)
    Oppose: 50 (57)

    How likely?
    Likely: 31 (27)
    Unlikely: 55 (59)

    Better or worse off if Scotland independent:
    E&W
    Better: 28 (8)
    Same: 30 (32)
    Worse: 23 (42)

    Scotland
    Better: 13 (25)
    Same: 9 (9)
    Worse: 62 (54)

    EU:
    Reapply to join: 58 (47)
    Automatic Member: 21 (35)

    England & Wales (Scotland)
    Net support for:
    Keep getting BBC: -1 (+48)
    Keep pound: -5 (+42)
    Keep Queen: +17 (+22)
    Ban Scots MPs from Westminster votes post referendum: +53 (+44)
    Ban Scots Lords ditto: +57 (+39)

    Also YouGov vs Year Ago:

    Con: 30 (-1)
    Lab: 38 (-6)
    LibD: 10 (-)
    UKIP: 15 (+5)

    YouGov are always crap in Scotland , they have never ever been close to right.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Alan, Good news so we are only borrowing £110 billion this year
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Even the most optimistic projections indicate the deficit will be about 90 billion by the election so Osborne has just missed his 2010 target by a country mile.
    Not the point though is it ? He has more money to play with and an election coming up. Go figure.
    Alan, only in his dreams, we cannot continue to borrow£100 billion a year and hope to survive for long.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JackW said:

    Andy Marr still suffering it would appear. Sadly he still seems unable to move his left arm.

    I had a hemiphaglic migraine that mimicked a stroke and I didn't get most of the movement/sensation back in my right arm for years. Even now it still feels tired and my fingers are a bit numb and its been 10yrs. That Mr Marr is back at work at all is remarkable given the severity of his.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    malcolmg said:

    tim said:

    @Roger

    Remember what Hemming and Booker are

    Hemming is a fool, but there is a serious issue about the family courts operating as a law unto themselves. This is a boil, it is now recognised at the highest level, which must be lanced.
    Have to say if even a fraction of what he said is true and all hidden by secrecy laws , it is a scandal.
    I am far from being overly knowledgeable in the area, but family courts seem like a really dangerous entity. That does not make Hemming and Booker or their causes right, but we should not ignore the problems with family courts just because we do not like the messengers.
  • SeanT said:


    Comes from Progressive Scottish Opinion – "the first firm to correctly predict the SNP majority victory in the 2011 Holyrood election"

    P.O. use Yougov.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    SMukesh said:

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
    All we see on a daily basis is how crap the service is and seems to be getting worse all the time. The £50 off bills is a CON as we will be paying big time for it as these clowns borrow money to pay for it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    It is YOUGOV they are always crap. Anyone who thinks that is the actual position has no clue whatsoever.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Malcolm. The Lansley reforms do not apply in Scotland which may explain why you are not seeing the same as me.
    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
    All we see on a daily basis is how crap the service is and seems to be getting worse all the time. The £50 off bills is a CON as we will be paying big time for it as these clowns borrow money to pay for it.
  • "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Scots are pretty much like the English shock!! Whoever would have thought that people in different parts of a country that has existed for 300 years have similar tastes, views and outlooks?

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    LOL, you quote from the Mail, the two of you are well suited , neither would know the truth if it hit them in the face. What a turnip.
  • "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    Maybe, maybe not.

    It depends on the attitudes of the people on the dole.

    If Scotland were independant, I will have a better chance of getting a job.

    If Scotland were independant, I will receive increased benefits.

    Which one is it?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.



    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Anecdotally, it tallies nicely with the proportion of Scots on this website posting all day long in favour of a Yes vote.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    SeanT said:


    Comes from Progressive Scottish Opinion – "the first firm to correctly predict the SNP majority victory in the 2011 Holyrood election"

    P.O. use Yougov.
    TUD, you will have spoiled his euphoria
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am a LD member, and supporter of Scottish independence, but apart from that...
    malcolmg said:

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Malcolm. The Lansley reforms do not apply in Scotland which may explain why you are not seeing the same as me.

    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
    All we see on a daily basis is how crap the service is and seems to be getting worse all the time. The £50 off bills is a CON as we will be paying big time for it as these clowns borrow money to pay for it.
    I was quoting from the Media who only report on the English NHS , it was not a comment on the Scottish NHS of which I only have minimal knowledge given it is rarely mentioned in the media. What little interaction I have had with the NHS in Scotland has been reasonable, I mainly use private.
  • I am a LD member, and supporter of Scottish independence, but apart from that...

    malcolmg said:

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
    And I thought I was the only one.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Alan, Good news so we are only borrowing £110 billion this year
    Too high, malcolm.

    The March 2013 budget fixed the Central Government Net Cash Requirement at £102.4 bn for this fiscal year. To date this figure has been massively undershot: it is only £32.0 bn after seven months with an improving underlying fiscal position (revenues higher and expenses lower than budget and the gap increasing).

    The actual "cash" George has in his pocket is really quite significant. That is why the amount he reduces real borrowing in the Autumn Statement is so important for telling us what goodies we are likely to get before the election.
  • malcolmg said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    It is YOUGOV they are always crap. Anyone who thinks that is the actual position has no clue whatsoever.

    I have no idea if it is the correct position. But if it is, Yes is done for - unless No voters are so convinced their side will win they stay at home in droves on the day. But even then, if you look at where No is strongest - among the over 55s, women and the ABCs - they have a significant advantage among the demographics that are most likely to vote.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Jeez, Alexander on Sky. Yes, it's a tragedy but ffs. Some real over the top talk going on. Embarrassing.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    maaarsh said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.



    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Anecdotally, it tallies nicely with the proportion of Scots on this website posting all day long in favour of a Yes vote.
    Another lovely unionist sheeple meanders in and adds his intelligence to the debate........ Baa Baaa
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    edited December 2013

    I am a LD member, and supporter of Scottish independence, but apart from that...

    malcolmg said:

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
    Fox, when anyone brings up the "Braveheart" reference you instantly know they have no clue on the subject and are completely biased against it and have lost their argument.


    EDIT: Whilst I am very right wing I find it very poor taste when people mock the poor , unemployed etc. Not directing this at you but at clowns like Maaarsh , SeanT etc. One day they may have issues themselves and will not be so smug ar**s.
  • Yes is on 27 % now and history has shown that voting intentions in referendums almost invariably move towards the status quo as the day of reckoning approaches. Yes may well struggle to break 20 %.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Media perceptions of the NHS are important, but often out of touch with reality. There are really only two stories: Scandal of .... and Devoted staff save...

    I do not expect this to change in the near future, but where are the disasters that were predicted for the Lansley reforms?


    malcolmg said:

    Malcolm. The Lansley reforms do not apply in Scotland which may explain why you are not seeing the same as me.

    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    From the rumours that I here, I think that there will be some funding for the NHS shortly. This may well be from central reserves as nationally the NHS has a surplus, while many local trusts are overspent. Releasing some of these contingency funds would seem sensible.

    I do not expect a major electoral benefit from the Conservatives commitment to ringfence the NHS from cuts in 2010, but am increasingly impressed by how the Lansley reforms are working.

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    In what way do you find Lansley`s reforms helpful?
    All we see on a daily basis is how crap the service is and seems to be getting worse all the time. The £50 off bills is a CON as we will be paying big time for it as these clowns borrow money to pay for it.
    I was quoting from the Media who only report on the English NHS , it was not a comment on the Scottish NHS of which I only have minimal knowledge given it is rarely mentioned in the media. What little interaction I have had with the NHS in Scotland has been reasonable, I mainly use private.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    edited December 2013
    I'm not sure that slagging off unionists, pollsters, etc is likely to improve the prospects dramatically for a yes vote next year.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    I am a LD member, and supporter of Scottish independence, but apart from that...

    malcolmg said:

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
    And I thought I was the only one.
    Certainly not thick on the ground Alan, though we may get a few surprises
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Alan, Good news so we are only borrowing £110 billion this year
    Too high, malcolm.

    The March 2013 budget fixed the Central Government Net Cash Requirement at £102.4 bn for this fiscal year. To date this figure has been massively undershot: it is only £32.0 bn after seven months with an improving underlying fiscal position (revenues higher and expenses lower than budget and the gap increasing).

    The actual "cash" George has in his pocket is really quite significant. That is why the amount he reduces real borrowing in the Autumn Statement is so important for telling us what goodies we are likely to get before the election.
    It is still a massive number and needs cutting far quicker than they are doing. Get a few of their tax dodging chums and empty their pockets.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Yes is on 27 % now and history has shown that voting intentions in referendums almost invariably move towards the status quo as the day of reckoning approaches. Yes may well struggle to break 20 %.

    Do you want to lose some money on your hunch
  • malcolmg said:

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
    A bit harsh, seemed like a reasonable point to me. There doesn't seem to be much of an option for right-leaning Scottish voters at the moment.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    rcs1000 said:



    Here is a complete list of people who do not think John Hemming, MP is a complete idiot:

    1. errrr....

    He's my bridge partner in the annual (ex-)Commons/Lords matches and a very good player (and good company). I won't offer an opinion on other matters!

    malcolmg is right that there was a very noticeable wobble among anti-independence posters here a couple of weeks ago, when everyone started talking what-ifs. But the position reminds me of the 1975 EEC referendum, when the outcome was clear for ages but Tony Benn and others kept saying there was a big movement not being picked up by the polls. There wasn't.

    Supposing these polls to be close to the outcome, I wonder if it will bury Devomax as well? If the result is 51-49 against independence, there will presumably be a definite feeling that we need to devolve more to meet the feeling halfway. If it's more like 60-40 or 65-35, probably the feeling will be that we just carry on as before.

    An article on what a No will do to the SNP would be interesting. There have been vague suggestions that it might lead to a collapse in morale (which seems to me more likely) or a surge in support (on the basis that if Scotland isn't independent it still needs doughty defenders who act as though it were). It's hard to think up realistic polling questions that anticipate it, though.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am sure that George will want to spend his war chest himself, not hand it to Ed Balls.

    The key will be to come up with some popular tax cut that would benefit swing voters, and pull the rug from under Ed Balls.

    Personally, I would recommend substantial cuts in National Insurance, both employers and employees. It is probably worth keeping as a fairly nominal rate, so entitlement to contributory benefits can be maintained and expanded.
    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    Only 17 months to go and the Conservatives still need a 8% swing to get a majority.We shall see whether autumn statement manages to narrow the gap.

    The energy price cut from the government may not be the winner that they need as it only cuts £50 from the £120 that the bills have gone up this year.

    The money is supposed to come from clamping down on tax avoidance for the umpteenth time.This along with increased NHS spending to avoid a winter crisis means the government`s deficit reduction is going off-target again.

    Not really, due to higher growth OBR reckon there will be a £12bn favourable impact on borrowing this year.
    Alan, Good news so we are only borrowing £110 billion this year
    Too high, malcolm.

    The March 2013 budget fixed the Central Government Net Cash Requirement at £102.4 bn for this fiscal year. To date this figure has been massively undershot: it is only £32.0 bn after seven months with an improving underlying fiscal position (revenues higher and expenses lower than budget and the gap increasing).

    The actual "cash" George has in his pocket is really quite significant. That is why the amount he reduces real borrowing in the Autumn Statement is so important for telling us what goodies we are likely to get before the election.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    malcolmg said:

    "Braveheart on Benefits" -a great slogan!

    It is interesting to see that Scots may not be as leftwing as supposed. If Scots workers do not want to pay for Scots on welfare, there may well be a shift to the right politically after independence. I suspect that the problem for Scots is that both Tories and UKIP are seen as English parties, giving patriotic but right wing Scots little choice of who to vote for.

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    That Indyref poll is mildly disastrous for Yes. They MUST have been hoping, nay expecting a surge after the White Paper Presser. This was their biggest day in the campaign so far, it may be the biggest day of the whole campaign (unless Salmond can get Cameron go agree to a TV debate).

    There aren't many gamechangers left after this. And we get...


    Yes 27
    No 56

    ?!

    Their only realistic hope is that the polls are wrong. If they're not the gap is too wide to overcome. This is not an election campaign in which people might be persuaded to vote for you because they intensely dislike another party, or where the character of the politicians concerned is going to be an issue. This is visceral, yes or no stuff. It's hard to see minds being changed now. You either believe in independence or you don't.

    That said, if the polls are correct, the debate may start to become much more focused on what happens once No formally wins. That may represent a chance for the SNP's best chance - if No voters stay at home because they don't feel the need to go to the polls, a highly motivated Yes vote could sneak through.

    I think the No voters are just as motivated as the Yessers - motivated by the fear that independence will threaten their jobs and prosperity. This is the crucial stat for me:

    "There was also a huge difference in voting intentions depending on whether people work. Incredibly, two –thirds of unemployed people intend to vote yes, compared to just one in four of full-time workers – a clear sign that lose who have most to lose are most fearful of separation. Much of the SNP’s campaign has focused on the Westminster coalition’s welfare shake-up."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz2mDOS5Bq5

    2/3 of dole claimants want independence, but only 1/4 of actual workers. Bravehearts on Benefits. That's a campaign killer.

    Another sneering unionist Tory, content to milk the public purse whilst denigrating the poor and unfortunate. You sound like areal nice guy, hopefully you do not get many poor patients to look at.
    A bit harsh, seemed like a reasonable point to me. There doesn't seem to be much of an option for right-leaning Scottish voters at the moment.

    A No vote in the referendum is really a 'shy Tory' vote.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    The Liberals now have to start seriously considering doing something radical to shore up some votes - or face a near wipeout. 8-10% is dire for the so-called third party yet Clegg seems happy to wander on. Why?

    Why not pull the plug on the Coalition in the autumn in the hope of some sort of anti-Tory dividend? They have nothing left to lose.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Morning all :)

    Uninspiring polling for the Coalition parties this morning with the Conservatives back at their early summer levels. Plenty of economic cards still to play and the second will be the Autumn Statement (after the statement on energy bills this morning). The Government has two Budgets and two winters left.

    I'm left to wonder whether economic "goodies" will be enough to tempt some of the UKIP strays back to the Conservative flock - you'd think not given what we know why UKIP supporters are what they are. That said, we also know that the first whiff of electoral gunpowder may also be a huge recruiting tool and where I've seen polls suggesting 40% of UKIP supporters prefer a Conservative Government to a Labour Government, that is also significant.

    It was the same with the LD support in the 80s - locally, between elections, yes, they'd support you but as it got closer to the GE, that support ran back to the Conservative side often with the first Tory "attack" poster. The UKIP vote may be built on different ground - we'll see.

    Take 40% off the UKIP side and add it to the Conservative vote and that's how I read every poll just as in the 80s, you could take a third off the mid term LD figure and add it to the Conservative side.

    With the UKIP "bonus" YouGov cuts Labour's lead to 2%.

    Plenty to play for and a long way to go.
  • OH no,....

    Another sunday...

    Spurs playing a Manchester team....

    TSE betting on Spurs...

    this can only go so well....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Averaging out those figures gives Labour a majority of 92 (Baxtered) , on almost exactly the same vote shares as LAB and CON had at the last general election but reversed. Only Labour can WIN with 36.5% of the vote.
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