Whatever the whips tell him to make of it. Which eventually leads us back to Boris at square one.
This is a huge decision for Johnson. We will learn a lot about how he will govern when he announces the final fudge/result of his thinking.
depends how it's spun. If it's 'we're scrapped HS2 so we can do X,Y and Z', then that'll be different than 'we're scrapping it, and that's it'.
Presumably the strategy will be 'we're scrapped HS2 so we can do X,Y and Z' and then scale back X, Y and Z a bit at a time. Or constituency by constituency, starting with the least appreciative.
Whatever the whips tell him to make of it. Which eventually leads us back to Boris at square one.
This is a huge decision for Johnson. We will learn a lot about how he will govern when he announces the final fudge/result of his thinking.
depends how it's spun. If it's 'we're scrapped HS2 so we can do X,Y and Z', then that'll be different than 'we're scrapping it, and that's it'.
Presumably the strategy will be 'we're scrapped HS2 so we can do X,Y and Z' and then scale back X, Y and Z a bit at a time. Or constituency by constituency, starting with the least appreciative.
X, Y and Z being, of course, projects that will never happen.
The other misleading thing about HS2 is that when they say HS2 will cut journey times by 40 minutes etc they are talking only about direct services that don’t stop at intermediate stations.
Most HS2 journeys will stop at a half dozen intermediate stops which knock off 12-15 minutes off the savings.
This is what's happened in France. I was shocked at how often the TGV from Lille to Marseille stopped. I guess all the local politicians want their town to be on the line, even if it adds 30 minutes to the journey time between the big cities.
The best one in France is Gare de Lyon to Besancon. Some national politician, either Chirac or Sarkozy came to Besancon and gave a commitment to reduce the rail time for the above journey to under 2 hrs. This was a fantastic promise and fantastic it was, so fantastic that they drew a circle from Paris to see where a TGV could get in 2 hrs. Where this intersected the TGV line from Gare de Lyon to Mulhouse they built a new railway station and called it Besancon Franche Comte International. Unfortunately this is a heck of a way away from Besancon Viotte, the real railway station and so you have the choice of a train from Viotte to BFC or else a very expensive taxi journey, over 30 euros ! There is no doubt the journey whilst more comfortable now takes longer than it did before. It certainly takes 2 1/2 hrs to get from Paris to Besancon itself, at least.
Having sabotaged the economy and ruined the public finances that way, what better way to continue the damage by hosing huge amounts of money at a bad value infrastructure project?
I take your point. But I would only oppose a major infrastructure investment that had cross party support in the following 2 circumstances, neither of which apply -
The overwhelming majority of people in the north almost never travel by train.
It's because we all live a decent drive from a station with insufficient parking.
22 years ago when we moved North we picked Darlington as it is literally the only place with decent communication links (motorway, train and plane) near the Dales where Mrs Eek had got her dream job as a Planner there.
In which case I probably met Mrs Eek on a very regular basis.
I hope it comes down to Starmer vs Thornberry. Two authentic working class candidates.
Of which I of course hope that Thornberry will win.
I thought Starmer's dad owned a factory?
He was apparently a newspaper magnate, billionaire, and owned the Washington Redskins. Apparently. Or I might have misread that bit. It was in the Express so I'm not sure.
Whatever the whips tell him to make of it. Which eventually leads us back to Boris at square one.
This is a huge decision for Johnson. We will learn a lot about how he will govern when he announces the final fudge/result of his thinking.
On past performance he'll kick the can on anything practical and announce something more exciting that doesn't involve anyone actually doing anything concrete for a while, say the A1 hyperloop.
I hope it comes down to Starmer vs Thornberry. Two authentic working class candidates.
Of which I of course hope that Thornberry will win.
I thought Starmer's dad owned a factory?
Fake news, he just worked there, working up to a seniorish role.
In a way, I think that makes him more middle class than if he ran his own business. At least, that's how I feel about the world today; maybe it wasn't quite like that back then.
The overwhelming majority of people in the north almost never travel by train.
It's because we all live a decent drive from a station with insufficient parking.
22 years ago when we moved North we picked Darlington as it is literally the only place with decent communication links (motorway, train and plane) near the Dales where Mrs Eek had got her dream job as a Planner there.
In which case I probably met Mrs Eek on a very regular basis.
I will out myself totally by saying she's back there now. How she returned there is about as weird a story of random decisions and coincidences as you could possibly imagine.
Having sabotaged the economy and ruined the public finances that way, what better way to continue the damage by hosing huge amounts of money at a bad value infrastructure project?
I take your point. But I would only oppose a major infrastructure investment that had cross party support in the following 2 circumstances, neither of which apply -
(i) I disagree as a fully clued up expert.
(ii) It goes through my house.
For ii surely even that would depend on how much and how quickly they purchased your house?
It's safe to say that John Bishop hasn't done badly out of it.
I hope it comes down to Starmer vs Thornberry. Two authentic working class candidates.
Of which I of course hope that Thornberry will win.
I thought Starmer's dad owned a factory?
Fake news, he just worked there, working up to a seniorish role.
In a way, I think that makes him more middle class than if he ran his own business. At least, that's how I feel about the world today; maybe it wasn't quite like that back then.
The description of working/middle/upper classes have evolved over the years.
At the time he was working class (and probably still is).
The widening of university access has led to people being described as middle class now when they clearly aren't.
In Keir Starmer's father's day, as he didn't attend university, and no one in their family hadn't, he was working class.
Whatever the whips tell him to make of it. Which eventually leads us back to Boris at square one.
This is a huge decision for Johnson. We will learn a lot about how he will govern when he announces the final fudge/result of his thinking.
On past performance he'll kick the can on anything practical and announce something more exciting that doesn't involve anyone actually doing anything concrete for a while, say the A1 hyperloop.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
The Senior Starmer's have already been accused, apparently, of owning an Aga. Although it rather looks as they're both dead. Starmer was born in 1962, so his parents would, if still alive, be in their late 70's/early 80's
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
I hope it comes down to Starmer vs Thornberry. Two authentic working class candidates.
Of which I of course hope that Thornberry will win.
I thought Starmer's dad owned a factory?
Fake news, he just worked there, working up to a seniorish role.
In a way, I think that makes him more middle class than if he ran his own business. At least, that's how I feel about the world today; maybe it wasn't quite like that back then.
The description of working/middle/upper classes have evolved over the years.
At the time he was working class (and probably still is).
The widening of university access has led to people being described as middle class now when they clearly aren't.
In Keir Starmer's father's day, as he didn't attend university, and no one in their family hadn't, he was working class.
Starmer Senior, as a toolmaker, would have served a five-year apprenticeship, probably getting OND/C at a Tech.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
Has anyone kept a record of if a thread has passed yet without the B word being mentioned yet? Last night was quite good with all the HS2 chat as a diversion
I think Northern voters are more bothered by Northern commuting issues (roads primarily, then Northern commuting rail) and capacity from Birmingham to London falls much further down the pecking order for Northern voters.
If Birmingham to London is overcrowded that isn't a justification for a blank cheque of over a hundred billion pounds when the funds for electrifying Northern commuting rail networks are unavailable. Especially when HS2 isn't even supposed to reach the North until the 2030s anyway I don't see this as a "Northern" issue that will bother voters around here in 2025.
Improve commuting road and rail first and foremost. Then if there's money leftover should HS2 be considered.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
What on earth is being done in this country to warrant such mahoosive cost per kilometre.
Exactly. Maybe there is a good reason, no doubt the figures are not directly comparable, etc, etc, but the number one question, which has to be answered before one can say whether HS2 is a good project or not, is why on earth it is so expensive, and what if anything could be done to make it more affordable.
Not a single vote in Northern Ireland assembly yesterday for Johnson's NI Brexit "solution". All five major parties are adamantly opposed. Yet Johnson claims Northern Ireland consent.
I'm sure amongst all BJ's bullshit platitudes, 'uniting the country' must have been one of them. Presumably uniting the constituent nations of the UK individually wasn't quite what he meant.
The SDLP is not the largest party in Northern Ireland and more Northern Irish voters voted for Unionist parties at the general election rather than Nationalist parties, Wales voted Leave like England and most Scots also voted for Unionist parties
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Gentleman Class goes out for lunch and stays for dinner.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
What on earth is being done in this country to warrant such mahoosive cost per kilometre.
Exactly. Maybe there is a good reason, no doubt the figures are not directly comparable, etc, etc, but the number one question, which has to be answered before one can say whether HS2 is a good project or not, is why on earth it is so expensive, and what if anything could be done to make it more affordable.
I suspect the people who think this must be done under all circumstances are why costs are so massive. If you have no fear of your project being cancelled, you have no incentive to control costs.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
No, a carpenter is a manual labourer who works with his hands and by definition working class, if skilled working class C2.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class C1
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
It wasn't until I travelled abroad a lot that I found out no other country can tell someone's class from their accent. It is a uniquely British thing.
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
No, a carpenter is a manual labourer who works with his hands and by definition working class, skilled working class C2.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class
Doctors/surgeons work with their hands, thus they are working class.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Everyone has their dinner at dinner time. Except you think I have y dinner at lunchtime, and I think you have your dinner at teatime.
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class House number painted on - Working Class
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
Yes I’d say so. It only really is a talking point because Labour candidates, and their fans, are desperate to make them working class. Even if they were, working class graduates who go on to become metropolitan lawyers with PC attitudes are far less popular with working class voters than privately educated toffs I reckon, so it doesn’t matter anyway.
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
€6 billion for the Cologne to Frankfurt 177km high-speed line, completed in 2002. So about €33m per kilometre for a line with 30 tunnels and 18 viaducts.
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
It wasn't until I travelled abroad a lot that I found out no other country can tell someone's class from their accent. It is a uniquely British thing.
Yes but I'm not sure that Nick is right about class not being important in other countries. It is certainly very important in France, for example, overlaid on to the Paris vs the provinces distinction.
(He's right in his second point about the electorate not caring, though).
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
What on earth is being done in this country to warrant such mahoosive cost per kilometre.
Exactly. Maybe there is a good reason, no doubt the figures are not directly comparable, etc, etc, but the number one question, which has to be answered before one can say whether HS2 is a good project or not, is why on earth it is so expensive, and what if anything could be done to make it more affordable.
I expect the actual cost of the necessary diggers and steel will probably be about 20 billion quid with another 100 billion of legal, management, consulting, contractor profit, sub contractor profit, gov't overrun, accounting, civil servant, overtime, contractor variation payment, subcontractor variation payment, people paid to stand around doing nothing etc etc on top.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
No, a carpenter is a manual labourer who works with his hands and by definition working class, skilled working class C2.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class
Doctors/surgeons work with their hands, thus they are working class.
I told you all I was from a working class family.
No as they are also graduates which by definition makes them middle class and they also hold consultations in their offices for much of their working day, in fact you are clearly upper middle class
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
No, a carpenter is a manual labourer who works with his hands and by definition working class, skilled working class C2.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class
Doctors/surgeons work with their hands, thus they are working class.
I told you all I was from a working class family.
Donald Trump also 'works with his hands'. Working Class?
Do you (Mike Smithson) really think that building HS2 will serve Johnson's purposes? Or even be of benefit to the many millions in the north that he isn't trying to keep on board with the Tories? I don't think that many of these millions have it as serious aspiration to be able to get to London fast and at considerable expense in 20 years time. (Perhaps they are even supposed to want to be able to travel from Manchester to Leeds or vice versa via Birmingham then! Who knows?) Is it your view that the Tory voters among them have swallowed the lie that fast and expensive travel between major UK cities will (after they've waited for it) somehow accrue to the disadvantaged who can't even rely on buses to get to places they want or need to be?
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Everyone has their dinner at dinner time. Except you think I have y dinner at lunchtime, and I think you have your dinner at teatime.
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class House number painted on - Working Class
No house number (just a name) - Upper Class
Another trait in restaurants where they serve breads as appetisers.
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
It wasn't until I travelled abroad a lot that I found out no other country can tell someone's class from their accent. It is a uniquely British thing.
Yes but I'm not sure that Nick is right about class not being important in other countries. It is certainly very important in France, for example, overlaid on to the Paris vs the provinces distinction.
(He's right in his second point about the electorate not caring, though).
Gabs has never been to America either.
You should see what the rest of the country thinks about the Deep South accents.
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
€6 billion for the Cologne to Frankfurt 177km high-speed line, completed in 2002. So about €33m per kilometre for a line with 30 tunnels and 18 viaducts.
A lot of the cost seems to be due to the fact everything is a tunnel rather than the far cheaper approach of digging a trench.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Everyone has their dinner at dinner time. Except you think I have y dinner at lunchtime, and I think you have your dinner at teatime.
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class House number painted on - Working Class
No house number (just a name) - Upper Class
Another trait in restaurants where they serve breads as appetisers.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Everyone has their dinner at dinner time. Except you think I have y dinner at lunchtime, and I think you have your dinner at teatime.
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class House number painted on - Working Class
No house number (just a name) - Upper Class
Another trait in restaurants where they serve breads as appetisers.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
No, a carpenter is a manual labourer who works with his hands and by definition working class, skilled working class C2.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class
Doctors/surgeons work with their hands, thus they are working class.
I told you all I was from a working class family.
Nope surgeons are working class - doctors sit behind a desk so are lower middle class.
Artisans have had the same class issue for centuries.
Has anyone kept a record of if a thread has passed yet without the B word being mentioned yet? Last night was quite good with all the HS2 chat as a diversion
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Everyone has their dinner at dinner time. Except you think I have y dinner at lunchtime, and I think you have your dinner at teatime.
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class House number painted on - Working Class
No house number (just a name) - Upper Class
Another trait in restaurants where they serve breads as appetisers.
The Working class ask for margarine.
The Middle class ask for butter.
I ask for oil and balsamic. Don't you?
One of my fav local eateries delivers the bread with marmite butter. Bostin'!
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
You mean, Britain is class-obsessed?
Who knew!
As it happens I disagree. The electorate secretly care deeply; they just don’t want anyone to think they do.
Now, I know I'm not comparing like for like exactly and all that, and I know that land acquisition is more expensive in England, but as a physicist I was taught to check that the order of magnitude of a figure looked right. So here we go:
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer HS2: £200m per kilometer.
What on earth is being done in this country to warrant such mahoosive cost per kilometre.
Exactly. Maybe there is a good reason, no doubt the figures are not directly comparable, etc, etc, but the number one question, which has to be answered before one can say whether HS2 is a good project or not, is why on earth it is so expensive, and what if anything could be done to make it more affordable.
You need to compare the greenfield costs per km between France and the UK. HS2 costs will be majorly jacked up by the urban land purchases and tunnelling to get the trains into several major city centres, particularly a London.
Nevertheless, I partly agree with you. HS2 is overspecced.
Yes I’d say so. It only really is a talking point because Labour candidates, and their fans, are desperate to make them working class. Even if they were, working class graduates who go on to become metropolitan lawyers with PC attitudes are far less popular with working class voters than privately educated toffs I reckon, so it doesn’t matter anyway.
PC attitudes? This simply means not racist or homophobic or sexist. I thought this battle had been comprehensively won but it would appear not. There's a backlash on. I now know how the Tories feel about private enterprise (being better than central state ownership and planning). You know, when they complain that they thought that battle had been fought and won - and the matter settled for good - long ago.
Not a single vote in Northern Ireland assembly yesterday for Johnson's NI Brexit "solution". All five major parties are adamantly opposed. Yet Johnson claims Northern Ireland consent.
I'm sure amongst all BJ's bullshit platitudes, 'uniting the country' must have been one of them. Presumably uniting the constituent nations of the UK individually wasn't quite what he meant.
The SDLP is not the largest party in Northern Ireland and more Northern Irish voters voted for Unionist parties at the general election rather than Nationalist parties, Wales voted Leave like England and most Scots also voted for Unionist parties
But all those other parties oppose Johnson's deal too. There was not a single vote in favour of an arrangement that is supposed to come with Northern Ireland consent.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Heath was working class, Thatcher was lower middle class her father being a shop owner
Hmm. Wouldn't a carpenter be an artisan, lower middle class?
No, a carpenter is a manual labourer who works with his hands and by definition working class, skilled working class C2.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class
Doctors/surgeons work with their hands, thus they are working class.
I told you all I was from a working class family.
Donald Trump also 'works with his hands'. Working Class?
No he works in an office, is an Ivy League graduate and a billionaire, he is upper class in US terms (though upper middle class in UK terms as he is not royal or aristocracy)
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
It wasn't until I travelled abroad a lot that I found out no other country can tell someone's class from their accent. It is a uniquely British thing.
Yes but I'm not sure that Nick is right about class not being important in other countries. It is certainly very important in France, for example, overlaid on to the Paris vs the provinces distinction.
(He's right in his second point about the electorate not caring, though).
Gabs has never been to America either.
You should see what the rest of the country thinks about the Deep South accents.
Isn't the point that those who are what passes for upper class in the Deep South, have the same accents as the rest? Regardless of whether anyone in the North East acknowledges that there's a difference.
To the more general point, I'd rather have our class system than, say, the Indian caste system. I'm pretty sure most countries have some comparable form of inbuilt prejudice. We possibly got fixated on class because there wasn't much else to use?
Having sabotaged the economy and ruined the public finances that way, what better way to continue the damage by hosing huge amounts of money at a bad value infrastructure project?
I take your point. But I would only oppose a major infrastructure investment that had cross party support in the following 2 circumstances, neither of which apply - (i) I disagree as a fully clued up expert.
(ii) It goes through my house.
Those who oppose it need to reflect on why there has been such a broad cross-party consensus on this for such a long time, why most people in the rail industry recognise it’s needed, and why northern businessman and politicians are so desperate for it.
Not a single vote in Northern Ireland assembly yesterday for Johnson's NI Brexit "solution". All five major parties are adamantly opposed. Yet Johnson claims Northern Ireland consent.
I'm sure amongst all BJ's bullshit platitudes, 'uniting the country' must have been one of them. Presumably uniting the constituent nations of the UK individually wasn't quite what he meant.
The SDLP is not the largest party in Northern Ireland and more Northern Irish voters voted for Unionist parties at the general election rather than Nationalist parties, Wales voted Leave like England and most Scots also voted for Unionist parties
But all those other parties oppose Johnson's deal too. There was not a single vote in favour of an arrangement that is supposed to come with Northern Ireland consent.
Irrelevant, Northern Ireland still has more Unionist than Nationalist voters so what the UK government decides is definitive (plus the GFA is being protected under the Boris Deal when Northern Ireland leaves the EU)
Eight. You’re not better than other people. One of the things that really gets up voters’ noses is that Labour members seem to think that they’re a cut above. It’s taken for granted that Labour’s policies, and even more so its ideas, are better and on principle more moral than others – as if a bigger and more powerful state is per se more likely to lead to the better life. That might be the case, and in our view given Britain’s dilapidated infrastructure it is very likely so, but you don’t have to sound so smug about it. Firstly because it makes you look like you’re walking round with your noses in the air, and secondly because it makes you look ridiculous whenever you try to do some real politics. The claim to be all principle, and no pragmatism, has been made much worse by Corbynism and all the years in opposition, but it’s always been there – the idea that the further Left you go, the more self-denying and genuinely caring you are.
Here's one for you all, was Sir Edward Heath of working class heritage?
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
Works with hands and a servant, how can they be anything except Working Class?
The only definition of class that has any political utility is the Marxist one; the relation to the means of production.
I don't know why there is still a discussion on this. Surely it is well-established case law that you are working-class if you have your dinner at lunch time, middle-class if you have your dinner at dinner time, and upper class if you have your dinner whenever the hell you feel like having it.
Everyone has their dinner at dinner time. Except you think I have y dinner at lunchtime, and I think you have your dinner at teatime.
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class House number painted on - Working Class
No house number (just a name) - Upper Class
Another trait in restaurants where they serve breads as appetisers.
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
Talking in semi-ironic terms in reference to stuff about which they care deeply is a very English trait. Chuck in railways and you have peak PB.
I know we're all talking in semi-ironic terms, but I can't think of another country in the world where people talk about what class they're from with such keen interest. There is ample polling and actual voting evidence that the electorate doesn't care (cf. B. Johnson). What they want is someone who appears to understand and care about them; whether they come from a similar background is not the point.
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
It wasn't until I travelled abroad a lot that I found out no other country can tell someone's class from their accent. It is a uniquely British thing.
Yes but I'm not sure that Nick is right about class not being important in other countries. It is certainly very important in France, for example, overlaid on to the Paris vs the provinces distinction.
(He's right in his second point about the electorate not caring, though).
My French-Canadian friend had a French-French French teacher at her posh bilingual private school in Montreal. Her teacher's stated goal was to make her students pronounce their vowels like cultured Parisians, because the Quebecois "sound like peasants".
Jeez, are we all still talking about HS2? If we’d spent the last decade building it instead of arguing about it, it would be close to opening now.
Ditto the third runway at Heathrow, would someone like to estimate how much excess carbon emissions come from having hundreds of planes going round in circles every day waiting for landing slots?
Government needs to get a serious grip on these infrastructure projects, both in terms of JFDI and ensuring that the works are completed on time and budget.
I find it incredibly frustrating that we don't just get on with things in this country. We have been arguing about an additional runway at Heathrow for more than 20 years. It feels like we might end doing the same with HS2. The (non) dualling of the A1 north of Morpeth is absolutely ridiculous and was highlighted in Cummings famous advert as a job needing done quickly. The M8 is still 2 lanes only for most of its distance and frequently resembles a slightly scary car park. It must impact on Livingston which is one of the fastest growing parts of Scotland.
We see the same ineptitude in public sector IT systems, everything the MoD ever touches and in so many public sector building contracts. In Scotland we wince about the Parliament building and the trams.
I accept my attitude is being driven by frustration as much as by a detailed cost benefit analysis and no doubt (if you ignore another 20 years of planning delays) there might be better uses for the money if we look hard enough. But just f****** do it. Now.
It’s simply NIMBYism expressed at a national level. Because these projects get so long to get through main-gate and onto site the politics can stretch over multiple parliamentary cycles, slowing them down each time until they get there.
Having sabotaged the economy and ruined the public finances that way, what better way to continue the damage by hosing huge amounts of money at a bad value infrastructure project?
I take your point. But I would only oppose a major infrastructure investment that had cross party support in the following 2 circumstances, neither of which apply - (i) I disagree as a fully clued up expert.
(ii) It goes through my house.
Those who oppose it need to reflect on why there has been such a broad cross-party consensus on this for such a long time, why most people in the rail industry recognise it’s needed, and why northern businessman and politicians are so desperate for it.
NIMBYs don't reflect on things they just object because it causes them (minor) inconvenience and helps others.
Comments
Now is the time to invest in Northern Powerhouse Rail, and the Midlands Rail Hub
(i) I disagree as a fully clued up expert.
(ii) It goes through my house.
Further proof of my Northern heritage is that I drop the c-bomb nearly every time I say 'couldn't'.
And so it begins.
It's safe to say that John Bishop hasn't done badly out of it.
At the time he was working class (and probably still is).
The widening of university access has led to people being described as middle class now when they clearly aren't.
In Keir Starmer's father's day, as he didn't attend university, and no one in their family hadn't, he was working class.
A father who was a carpenter & mother who was a maid, I'd say working class but I've occasionally seen him described as coming from a lower middle class family?
I suspect the favourite will be sometime into mid-spring.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/01/27/the-fight-to-save-an-innocent-refugee-from-almost-certain-death
If Birmingham to London is overcrowded that isn't a justification for a blank cheque of over a hundred billion pounds when the funds for electrifying Northern commuting rail networks are unavailable. Especially when HS2 isn't even supposed to reach the North until the 2030s anyway I don't see this as a "Northern" issue that will bother voters around here in 2025.
Improve commuting road and rail first and foremost. Then if there's money leftover should HS2 be considered.
French high-speed rail projects: Less than €20m per kilometer
HS2: £200m per kilometer.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/764486/cost-construction-lines-lgv-by-kilometer-la-france/
Have I got this right?
The same applies to their religious views (unless applied to policy), their sex lives (or absence thereof, cf. Ted Heath), where they go on holiday and numerous other personal choices.
Shop keepers, small business owners, office admin staff, the police and nurses etc are lower middle class C1
I told you all I was from a working class family.
There is only one Aga maker
Anyway, I've identified a new differentiator - wheelie bins:
House number stickers - Middle Class
House number painted on - Working Class
No house number (just a name) - Upper Class
(versus Starmer Sr. - the Aga Khan't......)
(He's right in his second point about the electorate not caring, though).
My wife immediately phoned the Mail and Express to report that I owned a train.
The Working class ask for margarine.
The Middle class ask for butter.
You should see what the rest of the country thinks about the Deep South accents.
Artisans have had the same class issue for centuries.
HS2 is far more important than Brexit.
Who knew!
As it happens I disagree. The electorate secretly care deeply; they just don’t want anyone to think they do.
Nevertheless, I partly agree with you. HS2 is overspecced.
Ah well.
To the more general point, I'd rather have our class system than, say, the Indian caste system. I'm pretty sure most countries have some comparable form of inbuilt prejudice. We possibly got fixated on class because there wasn't much else to use?
*A polite euphemism for massively increasing from the original cost?
http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.com/2020/01/so-what-should-labour-do-now.html?m=1
Ditto the third runway at Heathrow, would someone like to estimate how much excess carbon emissions come from having hundreds of planes going round in circles every day waiting for landing slots?
Government needs to get a serious grip on these infrastructure projects, both in terms of JFDI and ensuring that the works are completed on time and budget.
It’s simply NIMBYism expressed at a national level. Because these projects get so long to get through main-gate and onto site the politics can stretch over multiple parliamentary cycles, slowing them down each time until they get there.