"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The Goverment of the United Kingdom.
Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The Goverment of the United Kingdom.
Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
Same comment to you. You are demeaning yourself with this pseudo-imperialist drivel.
Corbyn nominates for the H/L a man who faces allegations of bullying his former staff and a woman under investigation for anti-semitism oh and the nonce finder general. Way to go JC!
Resignation honours are about looking after loyal friends and allies - that's just a fact, if you look at past ones. I'd have liked to see him nominate Seumas Milne too, if only to enjoy the fuss. But anyway Boris should have nominated Bercow hiself - the breach of precedent is undesirable, becuase it implies the Speakers need to please the Government of the day in order to receive the normal honos on retirement.
So it's just an extension of grace and favour, and there was me thinking that that would be anathema to a liberal/ socialist ethos
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
Funny how you guys are suddenly so scared of referendums.
I don't actually care what the result of such a vote would be from leafy Surrey.
You could argue that but then if it was raining tomorrow the SNP would also blame that on Westminster and demand indyref2 so you cannot win, Brexit is just the latest SNP excuse for independence. Even if Remain had won the SNP would still be campaigning for indyref2
Well that is true, but that is not where we are so they do now have a valid argument. If we voted remain you would have a more valid argument for denying a them another go.
Re earlier post I noticed you referred to it being a 'moral argument'. I accept that and would hope it always were, BUT there is no contradiction between being logical and moral.
There is a big difference between opinion and logic, hence the huge arguments on politics, religion, abortion, crime and punishment, etc. However the opinions should be argued logically. We can disagree without breaking the rules of logic.
No, I outright oppose indyref2 regardless for a generation, exactly as Salmond said the 2014 referendum was once in a generation.
Brexit is just the latest excuse of the SNP for indyref2, the fact some might agree with them is irrelevant, what matters is whether the UK government agrees with them and it does not having won a majority on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
I'm not sure you are disagreeing with me so not sure why the 'No'.
I accept you oppose Inderef2.
I accept the SNP referred to 'a generation'
I accept the SNP are using Brexit as a reason for Indyref2
I accept the Govt oppose it
I accept the Govt won a majority under the system in place at the time*
The SNP put counter arguments. The three strongest, in my opinion, are:
Brexit completely counters the main argument put forward by Unionist parties during the referendum
Scottish voters voted in favour of remain
SNP won a clear majority under the system in place at the time.*
* The system in place, in my opinion is nonsense, but if it is going to be used as an argument for one side it also applies to the other side of the argument.
As I said I am unbiased in this argument (even though I have a Scottish wife). I am happy with either result.
I have some sympathy with the 'material change in circumstance' argument.
However, the referendum was known about ahead of time. A vote to leave in 2014 would've meant also leaving the EU. And holding a vote now would be mad, given we're in the process of leaving the EU.
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The UK government has every right to say no, Scots have already had 1 referendum 6 years ago, the Spanish government has prevented the Catalans having even 1 independence referendum despite the election of Catalan nationalist governments
The Spanish courts have prevented a Catalan independence referendum referendum. Just as the UK courts would prevent one in Scotland if it were held without the UK Parliament's approval.
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The Goverment of the United Kingdom.
Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
Same comment to you. You are demeaning yourself with this pseudo-imperialist drivel.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
Funny how you guys are suddenly so scared of referendums.
Huh? We like democratic referendum results to be implemented. Which both are being. End of.
I don't actually care what the result of such a vote would be from leafy Surrey.
You could argue that but then if it was raining tomorrow the SNP would also blame that on Westminster and demand indyref2 so you cannot win, Brexit is just the latest SNP excuse for independence. Even if Remain had won the SNP would still be campaigning for indyref2
Well that is true, but that is not where we are so they do now have a valid argument. If we voted remain you would have a more valid argument for denying a them another go.
Re earlier post I noticed you referred to it being a 'moral argument'. I accept that and would hope it always were, BUT there is no contradiction between being logical and moral.
There is a big difference between opinion and logic, hence the huge arguments on politics, religion, abortion, crime and punishment, etc. However the opinions should be argued logically. We can disagree without breaking the rules of logic.
No, I outright oppose indyref2 regardless for a generation, exactly as Salmond said the 2014 referendum was once in a generation.
Brexit is just the latest excuse of the SNP for indyref2, the fact some might agree with them is irrelevant, what matters is whether the UK government agrees with them and it does not having won a majority on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
I'm not sure you are disagreeing with me so not sure why the 'No'.
I accept you oppose Inderef2.
I accept the SNP referred to 'a generation'
I accept the SNP are using Brexit as a reason for Indyref2
I accept the Govt oppose it
I accept the Govt won a majority under the system in place at the time*
The SNP put counter arguments. The three strongest, in my opinion, are:
Brexit completely counters the main argument put forward by Unionist parties during the referendum
Scottish voters voted in favour of remain
SNP won a clear majority under the system in place at the time.*
* The system in place, in my opinion is nonsense, but if it is going to be used as an argument for one side it also applies to the other side of the argument.
As I said I am unbiased in this argument (even though I have a Scottish wife). I am happy with either result.
Sorry I have bugged up the quotes. It was bound to happen.
Moving the HoL will generate a debate about what exactly they are moving and before you know this will have evolved into a debate about an elected chamber.
What on earth are they thinking?
Do conservatives really want to start a major debate on reform? In the year of Brexit? Bonkers.
Apart from anything else they have just handed Farage a new campaign.
I have some sympathy with the 'material change in circumstance' argument.
However, the referendum was known about ahead of time. A vote to leave in 2014 would've meant also leaving the EU. And holding a vote now would be mad, given we're in the process of leaving the EU.
But it’s irrelevant. The Scottish Government has a mandate for a referendum.
The UK government shrieks about its mandate on 43% of the vote and then scoffs at the 47% the Scottish Government got.
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
No, Nandy was corectly pointing out that support for Catalan independcence has fallen since the right lost power in Madrid and the new government showed it was willing to talk to the separatist parties. In fact, the PSOE?Podemos coalition was only made possible with the tacit support of ERC, the largest of the nationalist parties in Catalonia.
I have some sympathy with the 'material change in circumstance' argument.
However, the referendum was known about ahead of time. A vote to leave in 2014 would've meant also leaving the EU. And holding a vote now would be mad, given we're in the process of leaving the EU.
But it’s irrelevant. The Scottish Government has a mandate for a referendum.
The UK government shrieks about its mandate on 43% of the vote and then scoffs at the 47% the Scottish Government got.
You could argue that but then if it was raining tomorrow the SNP would also blame that on Westminster and demand indyref2 so you cannot win, Brexit is just the latest SNP excuse for independence. Even if Remain had won the SNP would still be campaigning for indyref2
Well that is true, but that is not where we are so they do now have a valid argument. If we voted remain you would have a more valid argument for denying a them another go.
Re earlier post I noticed you referred to it being a 'moral argument'. I accept that and would hope it always were, BUT there is no contradiction between being logical and moral.
There is a big difference between opinion and logic, hence the huge arguments on politics, religion, abortion, crime and punishment, etc. However the opinions should be argued logically. We can disagree without breaking the rules of logic.
No, I outright oppose indyref2 regardless for a generation, exactly as Salmond said the 2014 referendum was once in a generation.
Brexit is just the latest excuse of the SNP for indyref2, the fact some might agree with them is irrelevant, what matters is whether the UK government agrees with them and it does not having won a majority on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2
I'm not sure you are disagreeing with me so not sure why the 'No'.
I accept you oppose Inderef2.
I accept the SNP referred to 'a generation'
I accept the SNP are using Brexit as a reason for Indyref2
I accept the Govt oppose it
I accept the Govt won a majority under the system in place at the time*
The SNP put counter arguments. The three strongest, in my opinion, are:
Brexit completely counters the main argument put forward by Unionist parties during the referendum
Scottish voters voted in favour of remain
SNP won a clear majority under the system in place at the time.*
* The system in place, in my opinion is nonsense, but if it is going to be used as an argument for one side it also applies to the other side of the argument.
As I said I am unbiased in this argument (even though I have a Scottish wife). I am happy with either result.
Sorry I have bugged up the quotes. It was bound to happen.
Goodness knows what I have done. So this is kjh posting, who has buggered up the quotes not HYUFD who is completely innocent of this incompetence.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
Funny how you guys are suddenly so scared of referendums.
Huh? We like democratic referendum results to be implemented. Which both are being. End of.
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
No, Nandy was corectly pointing out that support for Catalan independcence has fallen since the right lost power in Madrid and the new government showed it was willing to talk to the separatist parties. In fact, the PSOE?Podemos coalition was only made possible with the tacit support of ERC, the largest of the nationalist parties in Catalonia.
And ERC still want an Independence referendum in Catalonia, now they hold the balance of power over the minority Socialist Spanish government they are now arguably in a stronger position than the SNP given the comfortable UK wide Tory majority
I have some sympathy with the 'material change in circumstance' argument.
However, the referendum was known about ahead of time. A vote to leave in 2014 would've meant also leaving the EU. And holding a vote now would be mad, given we're in the process of leaving the EU.
But it’s irrelevant. The Scottish Government has a mandate for a referendum.
The UK government shrieks about its mandate on 43% of the vote and then scoffs at the 47% the Scottish Government got.
Just utter hypocrisy.
Actually the SNP won 3.9% of the total electorate, compared to the Conservatives' 43.6%.
So the Conservative mandate is actually 11 times as large
Moving an antediluvian, undemocratic, nepotistic institution several hundred miles rather than doing anything to reform it would be a perfect metaphor.
There is no mandate for a second sindy referendum.
Haven’t we learned by now that a referendums should be used to sanction the opinion of a majority, not to throw up supreme constitutional questions to the flip of a coin?
You also don’t hold such referendums every five minutes.
Having said that, what on Earth is Johnson - Minister for the Union - going to do to win hearts and minds in Scotland?
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
The Supreme Court cannot overrule Westminster statute if it rules out indyref2 and it was Westminster statute in 1997 that created Holyrood, so Westminster is the supreme body, the Tories now have a majority at Westminster plus the Tories are moving towards more activist appointment of Supreme Court judges anyway to replace left liberals with conservatives when vacancies arise
HYUFD, Happy to carry on discussion or abandon as I think we have thrashed it out, but whatever I think we have to abandon the thread as I have well and truly destroyed it. Sorry.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
The Supreme Court cannot overrule Westminster statute and the Tories now have a majority at Westminster plus the Tories are moving towards more activist appointment of Supreme Court judges anyway to replace left liberals with conservatives when vacancies arise
You really are contemptible.
Do you realise the Supreme Court ruling in Miller 2 was unanimous?
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
No, Nandy was corectly pointing out that support for Catalan independcence has fallen since the right lost power in Madrid and the new government showed it was willing to talk to the separatist parties. In fact, the PSOE?Podemos coalition was only made possible with the tacit support of ERC, the largest of the nationalist parties in Catalonia.
And ERC still want an Independence referendum in Catalonia, now they hold the balance of power over the minority Socialist Spanish government they are now arguably in a stronger position than the SNP given the comfortable UK wide Tory majority
Not sure about that. The UK has an unwritten constititution. An indy vote is in the gift of the government in the UK. It is not in Spain.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
Am listening to interesting podcast, “Corbynism: the Post-Mortem”.
Jonathan Freedland notes that of the hard-left Campaign Group, Jeremy was practically the *last* choice to nominate for Labour leadership, because he was considered a bit stupid.
It really was a Chauncey Gardner situation. If Chauncey had spent the preceding years hanging out with Palestinian terrorists.
Moving an antediluvian, undemocratic, nepotistic institution several hundred miles rather than doing anything to reform it would be a perfect metaphor.
The Blair government, which began in year zero of course, blithely created new bodies like the Scottish Parliament and the Supreme Court without too much concern for how they might act to accrue new powers to themselves. Now everyone can see how that works in practice. These precedents do not augur well for the mooted shift of the HoL north. It looks like a crackpot idea.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
The Supreme Court cannot overrule Westminster statute and the Tories now have a majority at Westminster plus the Tories are moving towards more activist appointment of Supreme Court judges anyway to replace left liberals with conservatives when vacancies arise
You really are contemptible.
Do you realise the Supreme Court ruling in Miller 2 was unanimous?
What HYUFD means by left liberal is not doing as the government wishes.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
The Supreme Court cannot overrule Westminster statute if it rules out indyref2 and it was Westminster statute in 1997 that created Holyrood, so Westminster is the supreme body, the Tories now have a majority at Westminster plus the Tories are moving towards more activist appointment of Supreme Court judges anyway to replace left liberals with conservatives when vacancies arise
Not content with fiddling with the electoral mechanisms, your Government is now going to 'do a Trump' on the Supreme Court?
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
The Supreme Court cannot overrule Westminster statute and the Tories now have a majority at Westminster plus the Tories are moving towards more activist appointment of Supreme Court judges anyway to replace left liberals with conservatives when vacancies arise
You really are contemptible.
Do you realise the Supreme Court ruling in Miller 2 was unanimous?
HYUFD is a highly numerate troll. Not really worth your time engaging with him.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
I like the term 'forceable future'. Must have something to do with HYUFD and his tank battalion rolling north to quell the rebellion.
Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?
Putting the HoL in Scotland where the governing party doesn't send reps to that institution might be a trolling step too far even for BJ and crew.
'Aggie, ahm feeling a renewed luv o' the yoonion after seeing yon birkie ca'd Baron Goldsmith o' Richmond Park struttin' doon the Royal Mile in his ermine.'
In any case I think this can be consigned to the pile with the BJ bridge/tunnel/teletransporter. There's going to be so much kite flying this parliament that it'll constitute a flight hazard.
No it does not and the fact a majority of Scots voted for Unionist parties at the general election despite the Brexit vote confirms that.
However regardless we have a Tory UK government elected with a clear manifesto commitment to block indyref2
Light has a peculiar duality in that it is comprised of waves and yet also particles. You can thus analyze it both ways at one and the same time and the consequent contradictions are defensible.
This is not so for general elections. The majority of UK voters chose non-con parties but do you hear me questioning the "Boris landslide" on those grounds? No. Because I would be trolling if I did that.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
I like the term 'forceable future'. Must have something to do with HYUFD and his tank battalion rolling north to quell the rebellion.
That suggestion was utterly riduculous and has nothing to do with my virtual lifetime of knowledge of Scotland and the Scots and my genuine belief they will not vote for independence
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held to that. Quebec for example was only allowed a second independence referendum by the Canadian government in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. 2014 was only 6 years ago.
Scotland is being stripped of the EU membership which its people overwhelmingly wish to retain. The EU membership which those same people were assured in 2014 that only a vote against independence would guarantee.
This does not constitute a "material change in circumstances" and thus grounds for another vote? C'mon. Of course it does.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
Hmm I'm a bit worried about the Supreme Court, they have proven themselves to be very activist. They might rule that the power to hold another Indy flref lies with the Scottish Parliament.
The Supreme Court cannot overrule Westminster statute and the Tories now have a majority at Westminster plus the Tories are moving towards more activist appointment of Supreme Court judges anyway to replace left liberals with conservatives when vacancies arise
You really are contemptible.
Do you realise the Supreme Court ruling in Miller 2 was unanimous?
And the Tories had a manifesto commitment to constitutional reform, including of the judiciary and Supreme Court and won a majority on that basis
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The Goverment of the United Kingdom.
Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
Bollox, we are not a colony. keeping repeating a rhetorical speech about a generation does the nasties no favours. We are not slaves and in a democracy should be able to make our own decisions. Tories will find that to their cost.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
I like the term 'forceable future'. Must have something to do with HYUFD and his tank battalion rolling north to quell the rebellion.
That suggestion was utterly riduculous and has nothing to do with my virtual lifetime of knowledge of Scotland and the Scots and my genuine belief they will not vote for independence
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Your statement is factual, but upsetting enough Scottish people between now and an inevitable second vote sometime this decade or the next would be counter productive in the grand scheme of things.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
No it does not and the fact a majority of Scots voted for Unionist parties at the general election despite the Brexit vote confirms that.
However regardless we have a Tory UK government elected with a clear manifesto commitment to block indyref2
Light has a peculiar duality in that it is comprised of waves and yet also particles. You can thus analyze it both ways at one and the same time and the consequent contradictions are defensible.
This is not so for general elections. The majority of UK voters chose non-con parties but do you hear me questioning the "Boris landslide" on those grounds? No. Because I would be trolling if I did that.
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
No, Nandy was corectly pointing out that support for Catalan independcence has fallen since the right lost power in Madrid and the new government showed it was willing to talk to the separatist parties. In fact, the PSOE?Podemos coalition was only made possible with the tacit support of ERC, the largest of the nationalist parties in Catalonia.
And ERC still want an Independence referendum in Catalonia, now they hold the balance of power over the minority Socialist Spanish government they are now arguably in a stronger position than the SNP given the comfortable UK wide Tory majority
Not sure about that. The UK has an unwritten constititution. An indy vote is in the gift of the government in the UK. It is not in Spain.
In reality it is, the Spanish Parliament can change the Spanish constitution
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It is a four and a half year term under the Fixed Term Parliament Act.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
I like the term 'forceable future'. Must have something to do with HYUFD and his tank battalion rolling north to quell the rebellion.
That suggestion was utterly riduculous and has nothing to do with my virtual lifetime of knowledge of Scotland and the Scots and my genuine belief they will not vote for independence
This is the sort of thing you'd expect a minor apparatchik to dream up and leak (probably for some tendentious reason) on a dreary wet Tuesday during the New Labour years. The Tories have to start facing up to the fact that their man Boris is a pound-shop Tone.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
It does but a high price will be paid in due course
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
Is that like the Tories doing Brexit with their 43% of the vote in 2019
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
No it would not, the UK government has a majority at Westminster and would refuse it, legally as Westminster is sovereign
Why the north of England? Why not Scotland or Wales?
Putting the HoL in Scotland where the governing party doesn't send reps to that institution might be a trolling step too far even for BJ and crew.
'Aggie, ahm feeling a renewed luv o' the yoonion after seeing yon birkie ca'd Baron Goldsmith o' Richmond Park struttin' doon the Royal Mile in his ermine.'
In any case I think this can be consigned to the pile with the BJ bridge/tunnel/teletransporter. There's going to be so much kite flying this parliament that it'll constitute a flight hazard.
If Boris could pull off teleportation he would even get my vote.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Your statement is factual, but upsetting enough Scottish people between now and an inevitable second vote sometime this decade or the next would be counter productive in the grand scheme of things.
As long as there is a Tory government there will be no second vote anyway
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
Does that still apply if there is a pro-Independence majority Greens + SNP (+ Scottish Labour?) or is that your loophole to wiggle out?
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The Goverment of the United Kingdom.
Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
Bollox, we are not a colony. keeping repeating a rhetorical speech about a generation does the nasties no favours. We are not slaves and in a democracy should be able to make our own decisions. Tories will find that to their cost.
Morning Malc
I believe a referendum should take place if the SNP win a majority next year but as you know I fully expect it to fail to win the argument, both economically and the loss of a 400 year union
Has this scheme to move HoL, been dreamt up to justify throwing more money at HS2 on the basis that there is great demand for a faster rail service to and from York?
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
I like the term 'forceable future'. Must have something to do with HYUFD and his tank battalion rolling north to quell the rebellion.
That suggestion was utterly riduculous and has nothing to do with my virtual lifetime of knowledge of Scotland and the Scots and my genuine belief they will not vote for independence
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
No it would not, the UK government has a majority at Westminster and would refuse it, legally as Westminster is sovereign
Let’s see what the Supreme Court says on the matter.
If there is one, I expect independence to win. No-one much will speak for the Union. The Tories have comprehensively poisoned the unionism well.
The Tories have just won a majority on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term and that is what they will do and block it regardless of what Sturgeon says.
Though of course 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties at the general election last month anyway
From Johnson'se Union beyond rejecting a second referendum.
Well that is up to you but any indyref2 needs the consent of the UK government and this Tory government has made clear it will refuse indyref2 whatever the circumstances.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held alist leaders and stop any referendum taking place
You and Johnson are not making it easy for me. I'm a d threat of violence, it's time to get out.
The anger and aggression is coming from the SNP side.
I accept some liberal wet, pro EU, vaguely Unionist but not really bothered people might not like standing up to Sturgeon so aggressively but Boris will do it anyway and could not care less
Quite. Boris has nothing to lose. He has a lot to gain. Not least, the support of probably a majority of Scots who REALLY don't want another wrenching referendum.
My guess is that a few Nats are in this camp. Theoretically they want indy, but right here right now? Hmm.
Sturgeon I suspect is also just going through the motions, she is not as fanatical a nationalist as Salmond was and quite enjoys the perks and trappings of being First Minister she would lose if she had to resign if No won any indyref2.
She is just trying to show her base she is committed to the cause but in reality there is nothing the SNP can do as the UK government has refused indyref2, the 2014 referendum only occurred as the UK Cameron and Clegg coalition government consented
I don't disagree with you on this - but I recall discussions on here within the last year in which you raised the possibility of Sturgeon calling a Referendum in defiance of Westminster - and even the prospect of UDI!. I always took the view that Sturgeon would have more sense than to go down that road - and - to date - events appear to support my judgement. You no longer appear to see this as an option available to her.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
So you are saying you are justified in abusing human rights because you have a majority? Is that what you are saying? Please be clear.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Your statement is factual, but upsetting enough Scottish people between now and an inevitable second vote sometime this decade or the next would be counter productive in the grand scheme of things.
As long as there is a Tory government there will be no second vote anyway
There is a point, probably in the next ten years where even if things are bobbing along nicely voters will get fed up with the Tories, just because they can. If circumstances unravel sooner then Indyref2 is not out of the question earlier than that. If the Scottish people at that point think they have been taken for a ride by their hubristic English overlords they will be off!
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
If the Scots keep electing governments who want to hold that referendum then who are you to say no?
The Goverment of the United Kingdom.
Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
Bollox, we are not a colony. keeping repeating a rhetorical speech about a generation does the nasties no favours. We are not slaves and in a democracy should be able to make our own decisions. Tories will find that to their cost.
Morning Malc
I believe a referendum should take place if the SNP win a majority next year but as you know I fully expect it to fail to win the argument, both economically and the loss of a 400 year union
Nice to see Malc back. Invalid progressing well, I hope.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
No it would not, the UK government has a majority at Westminster and would refuse it, legally as Westminster is sovereign
You are at times politically deaf.
The constitutional uproar from Scotland if the SNP win the right from the Scots to hold a referendum next year and the longer Boris refuses, the more likely the break will happen when a referendum next year is not something I see as a win for the SNP
Didn't the SNP actually put in the White Paper that one of the reasons Scotland should vote Yes, was that it could end up being dragged out of the EU by England (if Cameron won the GE and staged the Brexit referendum he was planning on having)? If that's the case, then surely by the SNP's own logic, the people of Scotland voted No even though they knew Scotland might well end up leaving the EU as a result... At the very least, the 'material change in circumstances' line probably would more a convincing argument if the prospect of Brexit had only been on the agenda after Sindyref 1. But given Cameron's Bloomberg speech in 2013, UKIP winning the EU parliament elections etc... it very much was before.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
Does that still apply if there is a pro-Independence majority Greens + SNP (+ Scottish Labour?) or is that your loophole to wiggle out?
I do not need a loophole.
If there is a majority in Holyrood elected on a second referendum next year, a second referendum needs to be approved by the HOC later in 2021
In that subsequent referendum Scotland will vote to remain in the union
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
Does that still apply if there is a pro-Independence majority Greens + SNP (+ Scottish Labour?) or is that your loophole to wiggle out?
I do not need a loophole.
If there is a majority in Holyrood elected on a second referendum next year, a second referendum needs to be approved by the HOC later in 2021
In that subsequent referendum Scotland will vote to remain in the union
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
That is rich coming from you. Both you and Boris were decrying Parliamentary sovereignty just three months ago because it wasn't giving you the answer you wanted.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
That is rich coming from you. Both you and Boris were decrying Parliamentary sovereignty just three months ago because it wasn't giving you the answer you wanted.
They just pick and choose. They are hypocrites of the highest degree.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
And common sense, not a dictatorship
It is not a dictatorship, the UK government was elected with a UK wide majority, Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014 on the basis of a 'once in a generation' referendum in Diamond's own words
Has this scheme to move HoL, been dreamt up to justify throwing more money at HS2 on the basis that there is great demand for a faster rail service to and from York?
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
It will be politically impossible to refuse a referendum if the SNP gain a majority in next years Holyrood election
No it would not, the UK government has a majority at Westminster and would refuse it, legally as Westminster is sovereign
Let’s see what the Supreme Court says on the matter.
Westminster is sovereign under our constitution and the Supreme Court must obey whatever statute the Tory majority passes on the matter
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
And common sense, not a dictatorship
It is not a dictatorship, the UK government was elected with a UK wide majority, Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014 on the basis of a 'once in a generation' referendum in Diamond's own words
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Your statement is factual, but upsetting enough Scottish people between now and an inevitable second vote sometime this decade or the next would be counter productive in the grand scheme of things.
As long as there is a Tory government there will be no second vote anyway
There is a point, probably in the next ten years where even if things are bobbing along nicely voters will get fed up with the Tories, just because they can. If circumstances unravel sooner then Indyref2 is not out of the question earlier than that. If the Scottish people at that point think they have been taken for a ride by their hubristic English overlords they will be off!
By which point we would likely be back in the single market at least under say a Labour led Government under PM Starmer anyway, in which case the original SNP whinge about hard Brexit no longer applies
Has this scheme to move HoL, been dreamt up to justify throwing more money at HS2 on the basis that there is great demand for a faster rail service to and from York?
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
So you are saying you are justified in abusing human rights because you have a majority? Is that what you are saying? Please be clear.
Is Boris yet sending in armed police to Scotland to arrest Sturgeon and prevent any referendum taking place as the Spanish did in Catalonia? No. So stop whinging about human rights
I really to need get out more. Been looking at the relevant page in Wikipedia and it's 'interesting' to note that: 'Under the Scotland Act 1998, an ordinary general election to the Scottish Parliament would normally have been held on the first Thursday in May four years after the 2016 election, i.e. in May 2020. This would have clashed with the proposed date of a UK general election, although this became a moot point when a snap UK general election was held in June 2017. In November 2015, the Scottish Government published a Scottish Elections (Dates) Bill, which proposed to extend the term of the Parliament to five years. That Bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 25 February 2016 and received Royal Assent on 30 March 2016, setting the new date for the election as 6 May 2021.' Ironic, no? However, it appears that there I a mechanism whereby elections could be held early.
If there is one, I expect independence to win. No-one much will speak for the Union. The Tories have comprehensively poisoned the unionism well.
The Tories have just won a majority on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term and that is what they will do and block it regardless of what Sturgeon says.
Though of course 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties at the general election last month anyway
From Johnson'se Union beyond rejecting a second referendum.
Well that is up to you but any indyref2 needs the consent of the UK government and this Tory government has made clear it will refuse indyref2 whatever the circumstances.
2014 was said by the SNP to be a 'once in a generation referendum' and they must be held alist leaders and stop any referendum taking place
You and Johnson are not making it easy for me. I'm a d threat of violence, it's time to get out.
The anger and aggression is coming from the SNP side.
I accept some liberal wet, pro EU, vaguely Unionist but not really bothered people might not like standing up to Sturgeon so aggressively but Boris will do it anyway and could not care less
Quite. Boris has nothing to lose. He has a ltically they want indy, but right here right now? Hmm.
Sturgeon I suspect is also just going through the motions, she is not as fanatical a nationalist as Salmond was and quite enjoys the perks and trappings of being First Minister she would lose if she had to resign if No won any indyref2.
She is just trying to show her base she is committed to the cause but in reality there is nothing the SNP can do as the UK government has refused indyref2, the 2014 referendum only occurred as the UK Cameron and Clegg coalition government consented
I don't disagree with you on this - but I recall discussions on here within the last year in which you raised the possibility of Sturgeon calling a Referendum in defiance of Westminster - and even the prospect of UDI!. I always took the view that Sturgeon would have more sense than to go down that road - and - to date - events appear to support my judgement. You no longer appear to see this as an option available to her.
If she did Boris would just suspend Holyrood and impose direct rule
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
And common sense, not a dictatorship
It is not a dictatorship, the UK government was elected with a UK wide majority, Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014 on the basis of a 'once in a generation' referendum in Diamond's own words
Look further than your nose! Boris may be Mr Big Boots now but when that changes and if he had annoyed enough Irish, Scottish, or Welsh, they will be taking their bat and ball home to Scotland, Ireland Wales and the European Union. I don't want to see that.
Remember Blair was popular once. He is now the most reviled man in Britain.
Has this scheme to move HoL, been dreamt up to justify throwing more money at HS2 on the basis that there is great demand for a faster rail service to and from York?
I don't have much much sympathy for Toryism, Unionism or Brexit but I obviously accept that many people hold those views sincerely and that they can also subscribe to other principles such as belief in democracy, consistency and honesty in politics. However the Scotch question is always useful in winnowing them out from the hypocrites, cowards and liars who after endless whining about the unaccountable EU denying them their sovereignty, being bullied by Project Fear and voters not being listened to, are happy to let all that bad shit happen in aid of their cause. It's a real sheep from the goats test.
It is up to the UK government to decide. And the UK government has decided this change does not warrant another independence referendum.
What can the SNP do about it? Absolutely fuck all. They can, I suppose, use it to fire up grievance against Westminster, and stoke the desire of the Scots for indy, but the SNP already does that with every single possible issue, so the UK government loses nothing.
The Scots need to get a new British government if they want a new referendum. It's that simple.
I'm just saying there is a strong case for another vote asap because of the 2014 misrepresentation and subsequent material change in circumstances pertaining to EU membership.
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
My guess is the next referendum will be around 2028-2030, and it will be lost again, by the SNP.
Scotland is a large part of our family and my opinion is a referendum should be granted if the SNP gain a majority in Holyrood in 2021 and request it again
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
It was the Labour policy at the general election to give Scotland another independence referendum if Labour won the general election and the SNP won the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections and Holyrood then voted for indyref2.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
Having a majority doesn’t mean you can act like tyrants with scant regard for democracy or human rights.
Our democracy is based on Westminster sovereignty
And common sense, not a dictatorship
It is not a dictatorship, the UK government was elected with a UK wide majority, Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014 on the basis of a 'once in a generation' referendum in Diamond's own words
"Fine but morally its not your place to decide for them. The SNP and the Scottish Greens were already elected with a mandate to hold another Referendum."
++++
Yes it is my place, as a British citizen with a vote. As long as we are a unified country - the UK - it is the UK government, as a whole, which decides when constituent parts of it may have a referendum to secede.
This is only sensible. Otherwise the SNP Scots government could call a vote every six minutes, on any pretext, in the hope of a YES.
Similarly Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall, Hay-on-Wye and my mad Auntie Mable in Tooting who thinks she is the nation of Andorra. No government can allow endless votes, in various bits of the country, on whether the country should break up.
I suspect that's what Lisa Nandy was trying to say in her reference to Spain/Catalunya, tho she phrased it badly.
No, Nandy was corectly pointing out that support for Catalan independcence has fallen since the right lost power in Madrid and the new government showed it was willing to talk to the separatist parties. In fact, the PSOE?Podemos coalition was only made possible with the tacit support of ERC, the largest of the nationalist parties in Catalonia.
And ERC still want an Independence referendum in Catalonia, now they hold the balance of power over the minority Socialist Spanish government they are now arguably in a stronger position than the SNP given the comfortable UK wide Tory majority
Not sure about that. The UK has an unwritten constititution. An indy vote is in the gift of the government in the UK. It is not in Spain.
In reality it is, the Spanish Parliament can change the Spanish constitution
Actually, the Senate's consent is needed for a change to the constitution and the seats in the Senate are not controlled by the government or reflective of the seat allocations in the lower house. What's more, the constitution states that only the Spanish people, via referendum, can change Spain's geographical scope.
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Which the Scots chose to remain a part of in 2014. And so were bound by the UK-wide EU referendum in 2016.
If they have buyer's remorse, they can express that in a generation's time.
However, the referendum was known about ahead of time. A vote to leave in 2014 would've meant also leaving the EU. And holding a vote now would be mad, given we're in the process of leaving the EU.
Leave it where it is and reform it.
Moving the HoL will generate a debate about what exactly they are moving and before you know this will have evolved into a debate about an elected chamber.
What on earth are they thinking?
Do conservatives really want to start a major debate on reform? In the year of Brexit? Bonkers.
Apart from anything else they have just handed Farage a new campaign.
The UK government shrieks about its mandate on 43% of the vote and then scoffs at the 47% the Scottish Government got.
Just utter hypocrisy.
So the Conservative mandate is actually 11 times as large
Haven’t we learned by now that a referendums should be used to sanction the opinion of a majority, not to throw up supreme constitutional questions to the flip of a coin?
You also don’t hold such referendums every five minutes.
Having said that, what on Earth is Johnson - Minister for the Union - going to do to win hearts and minds in Scotland?
But I agree with your summary of the hard politics - the government can and probably will refuse it.
Regardless, independence before the 20s are out is a 75% clear favourite IMO.
Do you realise the Supreme Court ruling in Miller 2 was unanimous?
Jonathan Freedland notes that of the hard-left Campaign Group, Jeremy was practically the *last* choice to nominate for Labour leadership, because he was considered a bit stupid.
It really was a Chauncey Gardner situation.
If Chauncey had spent the preceding years hanging out with Palestinian terrorists.
Not really worth your time engaging with him.
However, as someone who became aware of Scots Independence in the early 1960's living in Berwick on Tweed at the time and having married a northern Scot, I remain totally convinced that Scotland will not vote for Independence for the forceable future
'Aggie, ahm feeling a renewed luv o' the yoonion after seeing yon birkie ca'd Baron Goldsmith o' Richmond Park struttin' doon the Royal Mile in his ermine.'
In any case I think this can be consigned to the pile with the BJ bridge/tunnel/teletransporter. There's going to be so much kite flying this parliament that it'll constitute a flight hazard.
This is not so for general elections. The majority of UK voters chose non-con parties but do you hear me questioning the "Boris landslide" on those grounds? No. Because I would be trolling if I did that.
However the Tories won the general election with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 for their full 5 year term whatever the circumstances
I believe a referendum should take place if the SNP win a majority next year but as you know I fully expect it to fail to win the argument, both economically and the loss of a 400 year union
https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/york/
The constitutional uproar from Scotland if the SNP win the right from the Scots to hold a referendum next year and the longer Boris refuses, the more likely the break will happen when a referendum next year is not something I see as a win for the SNP
At the very least, the 'material change in circumstances' line probably would more a convincing argument if the prospect of Brexit had only been on the agenda after Sindyref 1. But given Cameron's Bloomberg speech in 2013, UKIP winning the EU parliament elections etc... it very much was before.
If there is a majority in Holyrood elected on a second referendum next year, a second referendum needs to be approved by the HOC later in 2021
In that subsequent referendum Scotland will vote to remain in the union
https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1218584264675090433
'Under the Scotland Act 1998, an ordinary general election to the Scottish Parliament would normally have been held on the first Thursday in May four years after the 2016 election, i.e. in May 2020. This would have clashed with the proposed date of a UK general election, although this became a moot point when a snap UK general election was held in June 2017. In November 2015, the Scottish Government published a Scottish Elections (Dates) Bill, which proposed to extend the term of the Parliament to five years. That Bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 25 February 2016 and received Royal Assent on 30 March 2016, setting the new date for the election as 6 May 2021.'
Ironic, no?
However, it appears that there I a mechanism whereby elections could be held early.
Remember Blair was popular once. He is now the most reviled man in Britain.