I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
I am somewhat serious. Brexit genuinely doesn't bring practical benefits. People voted Leave because they objected to being told what to do by a European outfit they don't like very much. Voting Leave, for at least part of the electorate, was about giving themselves agency. The Big Ben bongs thing doesn't look like that agency.
Angela Merkel says "After Brexit the brits will be a a competitor" and you do not see any benefits.
Isn't that a statement of the bleeding obvious. Just as if Scotland was independent from us, they'd move from constituent part to competitor. That doesn't mean we wouldn't have an excellent relationship with an independent Scotland, it's just we'd now be in competition.
The even more obvious point is that we are competitors anyway. We don't currently pool our GDP with Berlin.
If the early CLP nominations are anything to go by (and to be fair, there's only be nine of them), I'm struggling to see how JP and Thornberry get on the ballot. Could well be that only RLB, Nandy, and Starmer make it.
If the early CLP nominations are anything to go by (and to be fair, there's only be nine of them), I'm struggling to see how JP and Thornberry get on the ballot. Could well be that only RLB, Nandy, and Starmer make it.
Labour 400/1. Could the same happen in England, Scotland or Wales one day?
There's a small chance in Scotland, if it was to happen in England, we wouldn't be here to witness it.
Historically dominant parties had exctinction moments in:
Labour Scotland (2015) - from 40 seats to 1 Progressive Conservatives Canada (1993) - from 156 seats to 2 PASOK Greece (2015) - Seventh place from first in a decade Socialists France (2017) - From Presidency to 6%
I could do more. But parties get completely (or almost completely) wiped out more often than you might think.
Congress in India: 415 seats in 1984, 44 seats in 2014
Rebecca’s comments to catholic priests re: abortion could be difficult ground for her. Less so about the detail, more that Labour membership is increasingly suspicion of Big Religion.
Rebecca’s comments to catholic priests re: abortion could be difficult ground for her. Less so about the detail, more that Labour membership is increasingly suspicion of Big Religion.
I dunno, they seem to fall for the Cult of St Jeremy based on rumours there was a miracle in 2017.
If the early CLP nominations are anything to go by (and to be fair, there's only be nine of them), I'm struggling to see how JP and Thornberry get on the ballot. Could well be that only RLB, Nandy, and Starmer make it.
What’s the point of a CLP backing a candidate once he/she has surpassed the 33 threshold? They might as well endorse their second choice to increase their chances of getting another favourable candidate on the ballot.
Rebecca’s comments to catholic priests re: abortion could be difficult ground for her. Less so about the detail, more that Labour membership is increasingly suspicion of Big Religion.
I dunno, they seem to fall for the Cult of St Jeremy based on rumours there was a miracle in 2017.
If the early CLP nominations are anything to go by (and to be fair, there's only be nine of them), I'm struggling to see how JP and Thornberry get on the ballot. Could well be that only RLB, Nandy, and Starmer make it.
What’s the point of a CLP backing a candidate once he/she has surpassed the 33 threshold? They might as well endorse their second choice to increase their chances of getting another favourable candidate on the ballot.
To stop the other favourable candidate getting on the ballot.
Of course, it might be that Phillips' Scot Nat bashing pays off, and she gets a bunch of CLPs in Scotland. Though Starmer winning Glasgow Shettleston isn't particularly encouraging for her.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Yes shipping goods 11,000 miles will be a great way to improve our trade , we really need those sheep and apples.
New Zealand is a wonderful pristine place that unsurprisingly produces wonderfully healthy (in every sense) livestock and food. I don't really see your point to be honest.
We have plenty of sheep and apples, why would we want to ship stuff from 11K miles away that we can supply ourselves.
I agree, but when we joined the EEC we didn't replace NZ with domestic supplies, in fact British apple orchards were pulled up. People had to import from Europe instead. Now there will be a more level playing field. I don't think the distance is a major concern - it wasn't before the EEC, and transit has become quicker and cheaper.
Of course, it might be that Phillips' Scot Nat bashing pays off, and she gets a bunch of CLPs in Scotland. Though Starmer winning Glasgow Shettleston isn't particularly encouraging for her.
Yes, I thought that. Seems the Jess Scotch Wall broke at first CLP to vote.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
England 224-4 at stumps on day one. How refreshingly old fashioned. Next we’ll have songs in the charts lamenting lost love instead of aggressive bravado
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Yes shipping goods 11,000 miles will be a great way to improve our trade , we really need those sheep and apples.
New Zealand is a wonderful pristine place that unsurprisingly produces wonderfully healthy (in every sense) livestock and food. I don't really see your point to be honest.
We have plenty of sheep and apples, why would we want to ship stuff from 11K miles away that we can supply ourselves.
I agree, but when we joined the EEC we didn't replace NZ with domestic supplies, in fact British apple orchards were pulled up. People had to import from Europe instead. Now there will be a more level playing field. I don't think the distance is a major concern - it wasn't before the EEC, and transit has become quicker and cheaper.
Shipping goods that far when they are available closer to home is insanity.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Yes shipping goods 11,000 miles will be a great way to improve our trade , we really need those sheep and apples.
New Zealand is a wonderful pristine place that unsurprisingly produces wonderfully healthy (in every sense) livestock and food. I don't really see your point to be honest.
We have plenty of sheep and apples, why would we want to ship stuff from 11K miles away that we can supply ourselves.
I agree, but when we joined the EEC we didn't replace NZ with domestic supplies, in fact British apple orchards were pulled up. People had to import from Europe instead. Now there will be a more level playing field. I don't think the distance is a major concern - it wasn't before the EEC, and transit has become quicker and cheaper.
Shipping goods that far when they are available closer to home is insanity.
Fortunately we have an amazing system for working out whether to ship goods from afar or produce them at home. It's called trade.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Yes shipping goods 11,000 miles will be a great way to improve our trade , we really need those sheep and apples.
New Zealand is a wonderful pristine place that unsurprisingly produces wonderfully healthy (in every sense) livestock and food. I don't really see your point to be honest.
We have plenty of sheep and apples, why would we want to ship stuff from 11K miles away that we can supply ourselves.
I agree, but when we joined the EEC we didn't replace NZ with domestic supplies, in fact British apple orchards were pulled up. People had to import from Europe instead. Now there will be a more level playing field. I don't think the distance is a major concern - it wasn't before the EEC, and transit has become quicker and cheaper.
Shipping goods that far when they are available closer to home is insanity.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
Good. We Rejoiners need to stop arguing for a compromise situation. We should argue full throatedly for the Euro and Schengen.
Of course, it might be that Phillips' Scot Nat bashing pays off, and she gets a bunch of CLPs in Scotland. Though Starmer winning Glasgow Shettleston isn't particularly encouraging for her.
I'm not sure if Blair McDougall (JP's Scottish advisor) is particularly representative of SLab as it exists currently.
A quick swing through his cv isn't much more reassuring from her point of view.
Coordinated David Miliband's campaign for the party leadership An advisor in Jim Murphy's 2015 GE campaign. Scottish Labour candidate for East Renfrewshire in the 2017 UK general election. in which he came third.
I might be wrong but I can't recall Owen Smith being particularly strident over the Scottish question in 2016 when he won a slight majority north of the border, I think it was more he was the 'sensible' centrist candidate. It wouldn't surprise me if Starmer managed that trick even more successfully.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Yes shipping goods 11,000 miles will be a great way to improve our trade , we really need those sheep and apples.
New Zealand is a wonderful pristine place that unsurprisingly produces wonderfully healthy (in every sense) livestock and food. I don't really see your point to be honest.
We have plenty of sheep and apples, why would we want to ship stuff from 11K miles away that we can supply ourselves.
I agree, but when we joined the EEC we didn't replace NZ with domestic supplies, in fact British apple orchards were pulled up. People had to import from Europe instead. Now there will be a more level playing field. I don't think the distance is a major concern - it wasn't before the EEC, and transit has become quicker and cheaper.
It is a reduction in the UK's preferential trade because the UK will see a major reduction in preferential trade with the European Union without it being compensated elsewhere. Which is another way of saying a more level playing field.
(Although NZ apples are mostly not affected by EU tariffs because coming from the southern hemisphere they don't coincide with the EU apple season)
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
Good. We Rejoiners need to stop arguing for a compromise situation. We should argue full throatedly for the Euro and Schengen.
Don't you think it might be a good idea until the Euro was evidently a success first? Certainly, it would seem like a less risky option.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
Good. We Rejoiners need to stop arguing for a compromise situation. We should argue full throatedly for the Euro and Schengen.
One thing, rejoin is much better than remain. The country voted to leave. So it must leave. Rejoining would crucially not break that promise in a way that simply remaining would have. Leavers had to wait 40 years for another go, and whilst its arguable that we shouldn't have to wait that long again, a period of reflection about where we actually want to be outside of the EU will do us all well.
Of course, it might be that Phillips' Scot Nat bashing pays off, and she gets a bunch of CLPs in Scotland. Though Starmer winning Glasgow Shettleston isn't particularly encouraging for her.
I'm not sure if Blair McDougall (JP's Scottish advisor) is particularly representative of SLab as it exists currently.
A quick swing through his cv isn't much more reassuring from her point of view.
Coordinated David Miliband's campaign for the party leadership An advisor in Jim Murphy's 2015 GE campaign. Scottish Labour candidate for East Renfrewshire in the 2017 UK general election. in which he came third.
I might be wrong but I can't recall Owen Smith being particularly strident over the Scottish question in 2016 when he won a slight majority north of the border, I think it was more he was the 'sensible' centrist candidate. It wouldn't surprise me if Starmer managed that trick even more successfully.
Seems, Smith took a line pretty similar to which RLB has. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37229991 Then again, Corbyn was not exactly a stringent unionist either, so it wasn't like SLAB members had the option of voting for a hardcore 'No2Indyref2' candidate.
Of course, it might be that Phillips' Scot Nat bashing pays off, and she gets a bunch of CLPs in Scotland. Though Starmer winning Glasgow Shettleston isn't particularly encouraging for her.
I'm not sure if Blair McDougall (JP's Scottish advisor) is particularly representative of SLab as it exists currently.
A quick swing through his cv isn't much more reassuring from her point of view.
Coordinated David Miliband's campaign for the party leadership An advisor in Jim Murphy's 2015 GE campaign. Scottish Labour candidate for East Renfrewshire in the 2017 UK general election. in which he came third.
I might be wrong but I can't recall Owen Smith being particularly strident over the Scottish question in 2016 when he won a slight majority north of the border, I think it was more he was the 'sensible' centrist candidate. It wouldn't surprise me if Starmer managed that trick even more successfully.
Seems, Smith took a line pretty similar to which RLB has. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37229991 Then again, Corbyn was not exactly a stringent unionist either, so it wasn't like SLAB members had the option of voting for a hardcore 'No2Indyref2' candidate.
It'll be an interesting test. Maybe my own prejudices showing but I wonder if a significant number of SLab Unionists might recoil from such transparent carpetbagging.
Note the small total number - nowhere near the claimed membership, but then a number of members (2 out of 3 that I know) didn't get the question sent to them.
Not taking part in an election with a loaded question like that says something good about the other 1/3, I hope they also sent back an empty prepaid envelope.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
Good. We Rejoiners need to stop arguing for a compromise situation. We should argue full throatedly for the Euro and Schengen.
Don't you think it might be a good idea until the Euro was evidently a success first? Certainly, it would seem like a less risky option.
The Euro will only be a success once fiscal transfer are in place. That will be much harder to convince the British electorate to sign up to. Better to get in the Euro first.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
Good. We Rejoiners need to stop arguing for a compromise situation. We should argue full throatedly for the Euro and Schengen.
One thing, rejoin is much better than remain. The country voted to leave. So it must leave. Rejoining would crucially not break that promise in a way that simply remaining would have. Leavers had to wait 40 years for another go, and whilst its arguable that we shouldn't have to wait that long again, a period of reflection about where we actually want to be outside of the EU will do us all well.
Us Rejoiners should push for the closest possible relationship with the EU so it is easier to join again. We also want to make sure the UK doesn't sign up to other trade deals that will get in the way of rejoin.
England 224-4 at stumps on day one. How refreshingly old fashioned. Next we’ll have songs in the charts lamenting lost love instead of aggressive bravado
That almost sounds as though you’re on board with the shift from Leave to Rejoin...
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
As long as that? We could fix Big Ben twice in ten years (renovation started in 2017 and is scheduled to finish in 2021).
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
As long as that? We could fix Big Ben twice in ten years (renovation started in 2017 and is scheduled to finish in 2021).
You'd only hear the bongs live if you were at the Westminster knees-up being promoted by Nigel Farage to celebrate what he had earlier denounced as BINO. Perhaps the BBC could dig out the record they used during the war so as not to broadcast the sound of enemy bombers overhead.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
As someone who was first of all a Joiner, then a Remainer and now has to be a Rejoiner I hope I live to see it.
I hope, though, that that when that happy day comes we'll say to those opposed; we understand why, you tried, but we're obviously going to be better off back in. As opposed to the aggressive, triumphalist attitude being shown by loo many (not all) Leavers now.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
It will never happen. The rejoining fees will never be seen as worth it, versus the money it will drain out of the NHS to pay for it.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
they might be, but the first rule of politics is that everything takes longer than you think. We won't go back in until a major party adopts reentry as a policy and wins a GE and then a referendum on it. Think of that minimum timescales that requires.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
Quite like the comparison with Prohibition. The Noble Experiment, for all the best reasons, which failed. Much more positive than my favourite comparison, the 17th Civil War.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
they might be, but the first rule of politics is that everything takes longer than you think. We won't go back in until a major party adopts reentry as a policy and wins a GE and then a referendum on it. Think of that minimum timescales that requires.
Your analogy is all wrong.
Boris Johnson = Cromwell.
Like Cromwell, Boris Johnson tried to take back control from our unelected rulers but that was quickly reversed.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
they might be, but the first rule of politics is that everything takes longer than you think. We won't go back in until a major party adopts reentry as a policy and wins a GE and then a referendum on it. Think of that minimum timescales that requires.
That requires Labour to convincingly win a GE..(a LD coalition wouldn't help imho) in 2030? 2040?
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
Quite like the comparison with Prohibition. The Noble Experiment, for all the best reasons, which failed. Much more positive than my favourite comparison, the 17th Civil War.
Yes, it is very apt, apart from the fact that it bears no similarity whatsoever.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
Pretty sure the French and Germans will not be AT ALL happy if we propose prohibition. Even if we sign up to Euro and Schengen.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
As long as that? We could fix Big Ben twice in ten years (renovation started in 2017 and is scheduled to finish in 2021).
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
What is about being a troll that you enjoy so much?
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
As someone who was first of all a Joiner, then a Remainer and now has to be a Rejoiner I hope I live to see it.
I hope, though, that that when that happy day comes we'll say to those opposed; we understand why, you tried, but we're obviously going to be better off back in. As opposed to the aggressive, triumphalist attitude being shown by loo many (not all) Leavers now.
Well, that hasn’t taken long.
Rather than months or years it’s taken just a few weeks for some Remainers on here to turn on the head of a sixpence and jump straight to Rejoin.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
Pretty sure the French and Germans will not be AT ALL happy if we propose prohibition. Even if we sign up to Euro and Schengen.
Britain won't have prohibition until we become an Islamic State.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
What is about being a troll that you enjoy so much?
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
Pretty sure the French and Germans will not be AT ALL happy if we propose prohibition. Even if we sign up to Euro and Schengen.
Britain won't have prohibition until we become an Islamic State.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Yes but do remember that in the GE, most people voted for parties opposed to the WDA, and the BMG poll in Jan showed 52% wanting to stay in the EU.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
What is about being a troll that you enjoy so much?
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
One of the problems with Brexit in the last two years especially is that the only argument for it has been “we voted for it, so we have to do it”. Everything else has fallen by the wayside. No attempt has been made to convince anyone who didn’t support it that it has any intrinsic benefits.
So we are left with the undoubted risks, all economic projections have us been worse off, our diplomatic influence appears already to be diminished and worse all we are entirely at the mercy of a broken, polarised Westminster/Whitehall system.
There is no positive view, no positive stake, so at best it’s time to batten down the hatches.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
Your grandchildren can be magnanimous about it, if they like. 15-20 years would be a highly optimistic estimate.
Depends how messy Brexit becomes. If it becomes very messy very quickly then we’ll have rejoined long before I retire.
It took the USA 13 years to reverse an idea as stupid and messy as prohibition. That reversal did not require the cooperation of an alliance of foreign countries.
They’ll be fine with it if we sign up to the Euro and Schengen.
they might be, but the first rule of politics is that everything takes longer than you think. We won't go back in until a major party adopts reentry as a policy and wins a GE and then a referendum on it. Think of that minimum timescales that requires.
Your analogy is all wrong.
Boris Johnson = Cromwell.
Like Cromwell, Boris Johnson tried to take back control from our unelected rulers but that was quickly reversed.
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
If we do rejoin it might be in baby steps.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
If we do rejoin it might be in baby steps.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
Yes, that is the route. First it needs regime change, so a GE, unless the Tory party shifts back to the pro EU position of just 5 years ago.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Yes but do remember that in the GE, most people voted for parties opposed to the WDA, and the BMG poll in Jan showed 52% wanting to stay in the EU.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
It really is going away. It will mostly exsanguinate on 1st February 2020 - its remaining life-force ebbing further over the next five years.
The next election will not be a "rejoin" election. Save for a few fringe candidates, trying to save their deposits. Is that you, the LibDems?
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
If we do rejoin it might be in baby steps.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
It all depends on how the economy develops. If people feel Brexit in their pocket the landscape will evolve. If the economy potters along, nothing will change.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Yes but do remember that in the GE, most people voted for parties opposed to the WDA, and the BMG poll in Jan showed 52% wanting to stay in the EU.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
When that glorious day comes we shall be magnanimous and not remind Leavers the role they played in making it happen.
What is about being a troll that you enjoy so much?
If that comes about we will have wasted any number of years to get back to a place which will be better than where we are at that future time (otherwise we would not be doing it) but quite a lot worse than where we were before leaving.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Yes but do remember that in the GE, most people voted for parties opposed to the WDA, and the BMG poll in Jan showed 52% wanting to stay in the EU.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
It really is going away. It will mostly exsanguinate on 1st February 2020 - its remaining life-force ebbing further over the next five years.
The next election will not be a "rejoin" election. Save for a few fringe candidates, trying to save their deposits. Is that you, the LibDems?
You are naive in the extreme. The divide will evolve, but because of the divisive politics of the last couple of years and the singular unwillingness of this government to do anything beyond rhetoric to heal the wounds, it will fester and persist.
I really am at quite a loss why so many people have for one cared about Big Ben bonging, and for two gotten angry about it not happening. It's parody as reality.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible answer.
Global Britain which can't even get a clock to work. Brexit is going to be such a disaster we'll be in the Euro and Schengen within five years.
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum. This government isn't going to shift to Rejoin, so any replication requires a GE first, to be won by a pro European party, then a few years of accession talks.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Yes but do remember that in the GE, most people voted for parties opposed to the WDA, and the BMG poll in Jan showed 52% wanting to stay in the EU.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
It really is going away. It will mostly exsanguinate on 1st February 2020 - its remaining life-force ebbing further over the next five years.
The next election will not be a "rejoin" election. Save for a few fringe candidates, trying to save their deposits. Is that you, the LibDems?
Why should it go away?
Our relationship with the continent is a feature of our geography and history. We have a 2000 year history of opting in and opting out of wider European alliances and trading arrangements.
According to the Times the Queen is quite the hypocrite.
Prince Andrew performs no official duties but still gets armed protection but she won’t offer the same to the Sussexes.
Are you sure they’re for HIS protection? Rather than to protect shall we say, other persons of a certain age and type from him?
The Times is also just as likely to make something up/rely on a dodgy “source” as much as any of media outlet these days. I’m not sure “according to the Times” is exactly a conclusive starter to a sentence these days. It’s less than a week since they were called out for writing rubbish about William and Harry’s relationship.
The people of Norway seem perfectly happy to defy the opinions of their political class to stay out of the EU. I don’t see why a U.K. divergent from the EU (having never been particularly enthusiastic about the whole thing in the first place) should be any different.
According to the Times the Queen is quite the hypocrite.
Prince Andrew performs no official duties but still gets armed protection but she won’t offer the same to the Sussexes.
Are you sure they’re for HIS protection? Rather than to protect shall we say, other persons of a certain age and type from him?
The Times is also just as likely to make something up/rely on a dodgy “source” as much as any of media outlet these days. I’m not sure “according to the Times” is exactly a conclusive starter to a sentence these days. It’s less than a week since they were called out for writing rubbish about William and Harry’s relationship.
Rupert Murdoch has always been very anti-Monarchy. Not sure why (obviously up to him).
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
If we do rejoin it might be in baby steps.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
It all depends on how the economy develops. If people feel Brexit in their pocket the landscape will evolve. If the economy potters along, nothing will change.
You’re overrating the salience of the economy there.
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
If we do rejoin it might be in baby steps.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
Yes, that is the route. First it needs regime change, so a GE, unless the Tory party shifts back to the pro EU position of just 5 years ago.
Except rejoin might require the Euro, an EU army etc which was not the case before as we would not have the opt outs we had then. So hard to see us going further than rejoining the single market and maintaining public support
You are naive in the extreme. The divide will evolve, but because of the divisive politics of the last couple of years and the singular unwillingness of this government to do anything beyond rhetoric to heal the wounds, it will fester and persist.
Nah.
Come back here in a couple of years, with your festering Remain resentment.
You'll be laughed at. The EU has no political viability here. It is a gangrenous creed. Amputation starts on 1st February.
According to the Times the Queen is quite the hypocrite.
Prince Andrew performs no official duties but still gets armed protection but she won’t offer the same to the Sussexes.
Prince Andrew is actually losing his round the clock police protection, the same should apply to the Sussexes if they refuse to perform royal duties or fund it themselves
Cromwell was competent. Johnson has the Boris Bus, the Garden Bridge, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and just now the Northern Ireland Protocol that for the first time unites all of the daggers-drawn NI Ireland parties in total opposition. Johnson is an over-promoted Comical Ali.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
If we do rejoin it might be in baby steps.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
It all depends on how the economy develops. If people feel Brexit in their pocket the landscape will evolve. If the economy potters along, nothing will change.
You’re overrating the salience of the economy there.
I really don’t think so. If we enter the overdue recession, people lose their jobs and pensions are squeezed, political opinions will change. They always do. The government will get the blame.
Reading remainers' posts here feels like an intrusion into private grief. When you put the subject back on the table and draw attention to it, I suppose it's inevitable the old mental pathways reactivate and the daggers get drawn again. Hardcore remainers will never accept Brexit, the best hope for their own sake is that they just don't think about it very often.
You are naive in the extreme. The divide will evolve, but because of the divisive politics of the last couple of years and the singular unwillingness of this government to do anything beyond rhetoric to heal the wounds, it will fester and persist.
Nah.
Come back here in a couple of years, with your festering Remain resentment.
You'll be laughed at. The EU has no political viability here. It is a gangrenous creed. Amputation starts on 1st February.
I am not saying that we will rejoin, just that wounds will be there and re-emerge and widen when this government exits its honeymoon.
It really is going away. It will mostly exsanguinate on 1st February 2020 - its remaining life-force ebbing further over the next five years.
The next election will not be a "rejoin" election. Save for a few fringe candidates, trying to save their deposits. Is that you, the LibDems?
It might go away. My comment is that Leavers appear to have very little interest in making their project work. They have had years to come up with a plan but haven't done so. Johnson's attitude is "move on, nothing to see here". But the context is, like it or not, the European Union is the only show in town in Europe, the UK is heavily integrated into the European system, doesn't have an obvious alternative (that missing plan). There are major constitutional stresses because neither Scotland nor Ireland wants to leave the EU.
Sovereignty. We voted Leave to Take Back Control. If we can't even control when Big Ben bongs, what's the point?
A good question still awaiting a credible
I can guarantee you it will be at least seven years, and probably more than ten.
I think seven years is the minimum.
Yup, that’s right. No-one cares about the economy though. It’s not why most Remainers are Remainers and nor why most Leavers are Leavers. It’s a values divide.
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Yes but do remember that in the GE, most people voted for parties opposed to the WDA, and the BMG poll in Jan showed 52% wanting to stay in the EU.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
It really is going away. It will mostly exsanguinate on 1st February 2020 - its remaining life-force ebbing further over the next five years.
The next election will not be a "rejoin" election. Save for a few fringe candidates, trying to save their deposits. Is that you, the LibDems?
Why should it go away?
Our relationship with the continent is a feature of our geography and history. We have a 2000 year history of opting in and opting out of wider European alliances and trading arrangements.
I support EEA as LD policy, as a step to rejoin.
Isn’t you first paragraph the point, which the second does nothing to defeat? Our history is of a nation pursuing its temporary interest, through fluctuations in allies and trading relationships.
It is the permanence of membership of the EU, the direction of travel which people felt we were increasingly powerless to change, the subordination of British exceptionalism (even when that exceptionalism was misguided) that drove much of the growing opposition to membership. That there is a valid case that both were illusionary perceptions could not change the instinctive view that that was the case.
Comments
Good graphical guide to the first event of the primary season.
https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1217864671325278209
A quick swing through his cv isn't much more reassuring from her point of view.
Coordinated David Miliband's campaign for the party leadership
An advisor in Jim Murphy's 2015 GE campaign.
Scottish Labour candidate for East Renfrewshire in the 2017 UK general election. in which he came third.
I might be wrong but I can't recall Owen Smith being particularly strident over the Scottish question in 2016 when he won a slight majority north of the border, I think it was more he was the 'sensible' centrist candidate. It wouldn't surprise me if Starmer managed that trick even more successfully.
(Although NZ apples are mostly not affected by EU tariffs because coming from the southern hemisphere they don't coincide with the EU apple season)
Leavers had to wait 40 years for another go, and whilst its arguable that we shouldn't have to wait that long again, a period of reflection about where we actually want to be outside of the EU will do us all well.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37229991
Then again, Corbyn was not exactly a stringent unionist either, so it wasn't like SLAB members had the option of voting for a hardcore 'No2Indyref2' candidate.
CON were 2nd on 30% (-6), LDM 3rd on 22% (+12) & GRN 4th on 8% (-5).
Maybe my own prejudices showing but I wonder if a significant number of SLab Unionists might recoil from such transparent carpetbagging.
I wonder if the next electoral change the Conservatives will make is ending Commonwealth voting.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1217945835696218112?s=20
I like him - got to know him when we helped fund the Westway Project that he and Paul Marshall were setting up. Not afraid to challenge the consensus
* KLOBUCHAR SURGE *
https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1217989919001333762?s=19
The National is just as barmy as The New European, just with a bigger circulation.
I hope, though, that that when that happy day comes we'll say to those opposed; we understand why, you tried, but we're obviously going to be better off back in. As opposed to the aggressive, triumphalist attitude being shown by loo many (not all) Leavers now.
Which hospitals are you going to close to rejoin?
Boris Johnson = Cromwell.
Like Cromwell, Boris Johnson tried to take back control from our unelected rulers but that was quickly reversed.
It’s my new project.
I suspect that it will be longer, at least a wasted decade, and much of the damage done to the economy would be irreversible.
Rather than months or years it’s taken just a few weeks for some Remainers on here to turn on the head of a sixpence and jump straight to Rejoin.
https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Anyway, I suspect Rejoin is going to be fighting the last war.
The bigger and much more interesting question is what the West looks like politically 20-30 years down the line and what associations are necessary to keep its influence.
Prince Andrew performs no official duties but still gets armed protection but she won’t offer the same to the Sussexes.
That national divide is not going away, and indeed as the implications of Brexit become manifest, and the benefits are shown to be illusory, a strong Rejoin movement is inevitable.
A psychologist could work wonders with you over that.
So we are left with the undoubted risks, all economic projections have us been worse off, our diplomatic influence appears already to be diminished and worse all we are entirely at the mercy of a broken, polarised Westminster/Whitehall system.
There is no positive view, no positive stake, so at best it’s time to batten down the hatches.
I don't know what will happen with Brexit. I don't see the UK rejoining the EU any time soon, but am not convinced the current trajectory is workable.
Join the single market then rejoin the rest in stages...
The next election will not be a "rejoin" election. Save for a few fringe candidates, trying to save their deposits. Is that you, the LibDems?
That works both ways of course.
Our relationship with the continent is a feature of our geography and history. We have a 2000 year history of opting in and opting out of wider European alliances and trading arrangements.
I support EEA as LD policy, as a step to rejoin.
Come back here in a couple of years, with your festering Remain resentment.
You'll be laughed at. The EU has no political viability here. It is a gangrenous creed. Amputation starts on 1st February.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10751866/prince-andrew-faces-losing-round-the-clock-police-protection-after-epstein-scandal/
Maybe something will be worked out ad hoc.
It is the permanence of membership of the EU, the direction of travel which people felt we were increasingly powerless to change, the subordination of British exceptionalism (even when that exceptionalism was misguided) that drove much of the growing opposition to membership. That there is a valid case that both were illusionary perceptions could not change the instinctive view that that was the case.