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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will it be English Tories that swings the IndyRef for the Y

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Neil said:

    dont delude yourself into thinking a yes vote means anything other than independence.

    Without an understanding of exactly what "independence" looks like, it's deluded to imagine that it will be delivered unequivocally in the event of a yes
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    Neil said:


    That's only 2 years. If labour win the next election, do you really think they won't do everything they have the power to to damage the SNP's chances next election?

    With a yes result in the referendum the SNP wont need anyone else's permission to proceed with Independence.
    Depends what you mean by proceed. There will need to be a settlement between Scotland and rUK.

    Scotland can decide it wants a divorce, but it'll need the equivalent of a decree nisi to make it formal (and meaningful) wouldn't it?

    Absolutely. Scotland's independence will only be legally recognised once both sides in the negotiation sign off on it. The Scots could declare independence unilaterally, but that would guarantee no Sterling zone, no membership of any international bodies and financial and economic calamity.

    The SNP are a party that wants independence. Once there is a Yes vote they will agree to what enables that. They'll have no other choice. And they are not stupid. They understand this well enough. They also understand that they cannot say it as that would guarantee defeat in the referendum.

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    If Schengen is imposed on Scotland by its new masters then there must be a Border checkpoint between England and Scotland. Regardless of what has been said by any politicians up to date
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    SeanT said:

    Which is not surprising, as the Nats only announced the fact this week.

    No, SeanT, you only noticed it this week. The SNP has been going on about it for ages.
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    An employee was based in Scotland, but working for an English company (e.g. as a local sales rep) would presumably have to pay Scottish taxes to the Scottish equivalent of HMRC. THis is going to be a nightmare for English based payroll, is it not?

    It would suggest Berwick upon Tweed might become a tax haven.
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    F1: via Twitter, Maldonado will apparently crash drive for Lotus next year.

    Has Perez got himself a drive for next year?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,004
    Fear my Victor Chandler account may be next up for the chop after today ^~°
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    It would suggest Berwick upon Tweed might become a tax haven.

    It's interesting that the SNP wish list for separation includes all manner of things from England. About the only thing they don't want is Berwick...
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    An employee was based in Scotland, but working for an English company (e.g. as a local sales rep) would presumably have to pay Scottish taxes to the Scottish equivalent of HMRC. THis is going to be a nightmare for English based payroll, is it not?

    It would suggest Berwick upon Tweed might become a tax haven.

    I'd love to see how the crossover between payrolls (and tax information) between HMRC and whatever the Scottish called their tax office would work....

    Especially that a lot of HMRC is based in Scotland at the moment.

    The mother of all clusterf**ks come to mind... especially with the IT systems..

    yee gods.
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    F1: via Twitter, Maldonado will apparently crash drive for Lotus next year.

    Has Perez got himself a drive for next year?
    Rumoured at Force India with Hulkenberg....
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    A Schengen opt-out would probably be a pretty easy one for the Scots to negotiate when they are sorting out their EU membership.
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    F1: via Twitter, Maldonado will apparently crash drive for Lotus next year.

    Has Perez got himself a drive for next year?
    Rumoured at Force India with Hulkenberg....
    I love Perez, he drives the way I do when I'm playing an F1 Game.
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    Scott_P said:


    It would suggest Berwick upon Tweed might become a tax haven.

    It's interesting that the SNP wish list for separation includes all manner of things from England. About the only thing they don't want is Berwick...

    Are you sure?

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/13/scotland.scotland

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    Mr. Slackbladder is correct with the Hulkenberg/Perez rumour. Been there for a while, and seems likely.

    Oddly, Sutil appeared to have a contract signed and that was also most likely with Force India. Then again, this is F1, where contracts are sometimes like the laws of piracy.

    Di Resta's perhaps unlikely to remain in the sport.
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    Oh, and the Sirotkin to Sauber deal appears to be in some doubt, which will help Esteban Gutierrez to remain.
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    tessyCtessyC Posts: 106
    If Scotland leaves the Union I don't think that will mean substantially more devolution to Wales, not more than has already been suggested. Wales unlike Scotland has not got the capacity for devo max, thats goes before the fact most recent polls suggests the public is split or marginally against the devolution of a small part of income tax. Also the Tories seem to have overcome (not totally) the scars of the 80s and 90s far better in Wales than Scotland.
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    I'd love to see how the crossover between payrolls (and tax information) between HMRC and whatever the Scottish called their tax office would work....

    Especially that a lot of HMRC is based in Scotland at the moment.

    The mother of all clusterf**ks come to mind... especially with the IT systems..

    yee gods.

    Would the Scottish NHS be different? Are there any hospitals covering both sides of the border?
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    F1: someone or other has proposed two mandatory pit stops per race and maximum stint lengths. If the proposals are accepted by the teams they'll come into force next year.

    *sighs*

    If you want two mandatory pit stops give teams fuel tanks with a maximum capacity of 40% of a race distance and let them decide how to run their strategy.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Be careful what you wish for... If Scotland becomes independent, you can bet your bottom dollar that English & Welsh politics would rebalance in such a way that the Tory-Labour-Lib Dem balance would end up being pretty much the same as it is currently for GB.
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    Mr. Dadge, not sure that's necessarily the case. We may also see a rise of an English Nationalist Party (or similar), or UKIP morph into such.
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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Dadge said:

    Be careful what you wish for... If Scotland becomes independent, you can bet your bottom dollar that English & Welsh politics would rebalance in such a way that the Tory-Labour-Lib Dem balance would end up being pretty much the same as it is currently for GB.

    Indeed they would. The idea that the Conservative and Unionist Party can give itself a permanent political advantage by covertly encouraging the breakup of the union is very naive.
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Populus Lab 38, Con 35, Lib 12, UKIP 7, Oth 8
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    Dadge said:

    Be careful what you wish for... If Scotland becomes independent, you can bet your bottom dollar that English & Welsh politics would rebalance in such a way that the Tory-Labour-Lib Dem balance would end up being pretty much the same as it is currently for GB.

    Indeed they would. The idea that the Conservative and Unionist Party can give itself a permanent political advantage by covertly encouraging the breakup of the union is very naive.
    Then the Deputy Leader of Scottish Labour is very naive.

    Perhaps that explains SLAB's current malaise.

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    Would the Scottish NHS be different? Are there any hospitals covering both sides of the border?

    The Scottish NHS has always been separate since the inception of the NHS.
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    NextNext Posts: 826
    SeanT said:

    Dadge said:

    Be careful what you wish for... If Scotland becomes independent, you can bet your bottom dollar that English & Welsh politics would rebalance in such a way that the Tory-Labour-Lib Dem balance would end up being pretty much the same as it is currently for GB.

    Indeed they would. The idea that the Conservative and Unionist Party can give itself a permanent political advantage by covertly encouraging the breakup of the union is very naive.
    However I agree the advantage would not be permanent: Labour would recuperate (probably as a slightly more rightwing version of what they are now). The Tory supremacy would last no longer than a decade.
    Margaret Thatcher was in power for around a decade, and the country has never been the same*.

    * This is a good/bad thing depending on your politics.
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    tessyCtessyC Posts: 106
    edited November 2013
    I disagree with an English national party being more likely post Scotland leaving. I would have thought that would be far more likely if they vote no. Post Independence most of the constitutional problems caused be devolution will be resolved. Wales and Northern Ireland don't have enough MPs to cause major issues.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Madness = queuing outside an Asda in Belfast at 5am which isn't due to open for 3 hours.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25150109
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    The polls seem to be narrowing: 3% with Populus and the UKPR polling average is down to 6%.
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    Would the Scottish NHS be different? Are there any hospitals covering both sides of the border?

    The Scottish NHS has always been separate since the inception of the NHS.
    What happens to people who need A&E, if they live near Berwick, but on the Scottish side?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    What happens to people who need A&E, if they live near Berwick, but on the Scottish side?

    They'll probably die in the queue to get across the new border post.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,415
    edited November 2013
    AndyJS said:

    Madness = queuing outside an Asda in Belfast at 5am which isn't due to open for 3 hours.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25150109

    I remember doing that outside Toys'r'us quite a few years ago in the snow to buy a Furby. We all kept warm by coming up with ever more imaginative ideas about what we could do to the blasted thing. By about February no one would have noticed either.

    Funnily enough Jingle All the Way never struck me as even vaguely funny.

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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    The polls seem to be narrowing: 3% with Populus and the UKPR polling average is down to 6%.

    Remember the Tories were neck and neck with Labour before Miliband's Energy Moment. Is the effect of that wearing off? Hmm.
    A cursory reading of recent local by-election results (and I haven't done any analysis on the detail) suggests that UKIP is doing better, and the Tories worse, than opinion polling figures would suggest. Labour are probably about in line with their poll rating and the Lib Dems very patchy - some good results (eg Kirklees last week) and some terrible ones (Lambeth this week). Not necessarily a guide to national VI of course.

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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    tessyC said:

    If Scotland leaves the Union I don't think that will mean substantially more devolution to Wales, not more than has already been suggested. Wales unlike Scotland has not got the capacity for devo max, thats goes before the fact most recent polls suggests the public is split or marginally against the devolution of a small part of income tax. Also the Tories seem to have overcome (not totally) the scars of the 80s and 90s far better in Wales than Scotland.

    Also - Wales is far more divided than Scotland - North Wales would prefer to be run by London than by Cardiff...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130
    Patrick said:

    How will citizenship work if Scotland votes Yes? Anyone know?

    Would Scots living outside Scotland become English? Would all current UK passport holders be entitled to have rUK citizenship? Would English in Scotland lose rUK citizenship? If we split this area is going to be a gigantic mess, a mega clusterfu

    Citizenship and passports In taking forward the result of a vote for independence, we will ensure that British citizens "habitually resident" in Scotland on independence will automatically be considered Scottish citizens. This will include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another country. Scottish born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also automatically be considered Scottish citizens. Other people will be able to register or apply for Scottish citizenship on independence based on clear criteria. All Scottish citizens will have the right to acquire a Scottish passport, although there will be no requirement to hold one. We plan that citizens will
    be able to apply for Scottish passports from the date of independence.
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    Oh those Germans:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25151961

    I really can't begin to get my head around the appeal of this particular fantasy.
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    Mr. Antifrank, wasn't there another case of cannibalism (on a seemingly voluntary basis) in Germany a few years ago?

    I don't see the point, particularly as human flesh tastes like chicken*. Much easier to just visit the local supermarket.

    *Or so I have read.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    Good news for proponents of gender balance in Parliament:

    In 51 of Labour's top 100 targets a female candidate has been chosen, with 6 seats still to select.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AndyJS said:

    Good news for proponents of gender balance in Parliament:

    In 51 of Labour's top 100 targets a female candidate has been chosen, with 6 seats still to select.

    I had an interesting discussion with my CEO when we were considering whether to add a new member to the Board. She advocated someone on the ground that she would improve the gender balance. When I replied that I didn't care about gender balance, I just wanted the most qualified people she just looked stunned. Didn't get the concept at all. (Admittedly there are still a lot of my father's friends on the board, but that will change gradually over time)
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130
    Scott_P said:


    If the Nats win, Scotland becomes independent. End of.

    There is another scenario

    Yes wins and the negotiations begin whereupon it is revealed that Eck has indeed been blowing smoke out his arse, and the Blueprint for Brigadoon is not what the Scots are actually going to get

    An election in Scotland where the SNP get thumped for lying, and the new administration "while respecting the wishes of the Scottish people for Separation" acknowledges that the negotiations are going to be complex and difficult and take many. many, many years to complete...
    Ha Ha HA , you are really scraping the barrel these days.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    It's a hard life being a travel writer - I almost feel sorry for you...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130

    Patrick said:

    Hmm...good point Mr.Wifflestick.

    We'll need to factor canine zombieism into Scotland's future.

    If Scotland ends up like North Korea, the dogs would not be around for long. They'll be served up with the deep fried Mars bars.
    What a wit
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130

    Scott_P said:


    There might be a sense of "what the hell have we done" among some, but the sense that they have indeed done it will quickly embed itself. In this case, yes means yes.

    The voters are not going to reward Eck for selling them a pig in a poke.
    Well more fool them if they buy it, as Unionist campaigners will no doubt say over the next year, albeit more subtly than that.
    Will make a change as the unionists have had no story to tell so far
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130
    Scott_P said:

    Neil said:


    You can be pretty sure that when the SNP says it intends to deliver independence before the next Scottish GE after a yes vote in the referendum that they will deliver it.

    If that means no EU, no Sterling, no NATO?

    Eck may be daft, but he's not stupid.
    Keep clutching those straws
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130

    Will album and single sales in an Independent Scotland still form part of the UK single and album charts?

    Or will they get their own top 40 and X-Factor?

    Will rumpUK allow us to have singles and albums
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    antifrank said:

    Oh those Germans:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25151961

    I really can't begin to get my head around the appeal of this particular fantasy.

    On that subject, when reincarnated, I would like to come back as a journalist at an African Newspaper, covering Europe.

    The thought of writing an article covering European cannibalism...
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    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    The problem with my job is that the more you go away to sunny places, the more intolerable the chilliness of England becomes. I've just done a month in Zambia then Thailand (with a weekend in London in between), so coming back to 5C is a shocker.

    But my daughter forgets my face if I go away any more than this...

    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    But until then, Brrr....

    I am now having a massive G&T and listening to Bobby Darin, to cheer myself up.

    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130
    Scott_P said:

    Neil said:

    dont delude yourself into thinking a yes vote means anything other than independence.

    Without an understanding of exactly what "independence" looks like, it's deluded to imagine that it will be delivered unequivocally in the event of a yes
    What can one say but deluded does not even cover it.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130
    SeanT said:

    Neil said:

    SeanT said:


    As I say, your assertion is based on unending English goodwill accommodating every Scottish desire. This is dim and historically unlikely.

    No, my assertion is based on what anyone in power has actually said on the subject (do you have any minister from either Government out there supporting a frontier?) and on the only other example we have to go on but, more importantly, it's mainly based on both sides doing what's in their own best interests.
    No one has thought about an Anglo-Scottish frontier, because no one realised that Scotland would have a significantly different immigration policy to England. Which is not surprising, as the Nats only announced the fact this week.

    Have you been asleep for the last 2 years
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,130



    I'd love to see how the crossover between payrolls (and tax information) between HMRC and whatever the Scottish called their tax office would work....

    Especially that a lot of HMRC is based in Scotland at the moment.

    The mother of all clusterf**ks come to mind... especially with the IT systems..

    yee gods.

    Would the Scottish NHS be different? Are there any hospitals covering both sides of the border?
    LOL , you could not make it up
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    Charles said:

    AndyJS said:

    Good news for proponents of gender balance in Parliament:

    In 51 of Labour's top 100 targets a female candidate has been chosen, with 6 seats still to select.

    I had an interesting discussion with my CEO when we were considering whether to add a new member to the Board. She advocated someone on the ground that she would improve the gender balance. When I replied that I didn't care about gender balance, I just wanted the most qualified people she just looked stunned. Didn't get the concept at all. (Admittedly there are still a lot of my father's friends on the board, but that will change gradually over time)

    There is a lot to be said for gender balance at board level in my view. Different insights and perspectives are hugely valuable. And a dilution of testosterone can be a very good thing as it makes for calmer, more reflective decision-making. When you say "most qualified" what does that actually mean? I can see why that is important for highly technical roles, but you can only become an experienced senior executive if someone gives you the chance to be one.

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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    Struggling to think of a reason why Ian Watkins and Michael Adebelajo shouldn't be tortured.

    No possibility of being innocent, and the latter, who should be tried for treason, has the front to plead not guilty
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    isam said:

    Struggling to think of a reason why Ian Watkins and Michael Adebelajo shouldn't be tortured.

    No possibility of being innocent, and the latter, who should be tried for treason, has the front to plead not guilty

    Among other reasons, because torture demeans us. Just because someone else behaves appallingly beyond imagination does not mean that we should act in the same way.
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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    The problem with my job is that the more you go away to sunny places, the more intolerable the chilliness of England becomes. I've just done a month in Zambia then Thailand (with a weekend in London in between), so coming back to 5C is a shocker.

    But my daughter forgets my face if I go away any more than this...

    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    But until then, Brrr....

    I am now having a massive G&T and listening to Bobby Darin, to cheer myself up.

    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.
    There is no cure for jetlag, and it gets worse as you age. I just drink liquor and pop Rohypnol.

    I always thought the Koreans were the Irish of Asia? Coz they like a brawl and a beer? The girls are very much cuter than Irish girls, however.

    I quite enjoyed Seoul. Mind you all I had to do was wander around and eat the odd meal of bibimbap.

    They certainly like a drink.

    Didn't see much of Seoul as I was in meetings most of the time. Did a Friday night, though, which is where I learned about the drinking.

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    isam said:

    Struggling to think of a reason why Ian Watkins and Michael Adebelajo shouldn't be tortured.

    No possibility of being innocent, and the latter, who should be tried for treason, has the front to plead not guilty

    Because we are better than that. They are going to have very miserable, violent lives in prison for the next 40 plus years.

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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    The problem with my job is that the more you go away to sunny places, the more intolerable the chilliness of England becomes. I've just done a month in Zambia then Thailand (with a weekend in London in between), so coming back to 5C is a shocker.

    But my daughter forgets my face if I go away any more than this...

    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    But until then, Brrr....

    I am now having a massive G&T and listening to Bobby Darin, to cheer myself up.

    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.
    I find coming back from the Far East quite easy. My problem has been always when I am there.
    A weekend sleeping away got rid of the jet lag.

    I do have a sleep problem now [ more to do with age, methinks ]. I wake up after about 5 hours sleep feeling fully fresh but after a couple of hours as morning beckons really feel sleepy again.
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    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,780
    "STJOHN", (St.John, The Jumps, Occasional Horseracing Nod), has a bet for tomorrow's big race. The Hennessy Gold Cup at Newbury.

    Invictus beat both Bob's Worth and Silviniaco Conti in his last outing at Ascot in the Reynoldstown Grade 2 Chase at Ascot over 3 miles, Good to Soft. That was back in February 2012, so he is coming back off a long lay off due to a tendon injury.

    Invictus beats Bob's Worth fair and square by 3L, receiving 3lbs. Bob's Worth does make a couple of mistakes but they're not major and the form of the race looks very solid.

    Bob's Worth went on to win the RSA Chase at Cheltenham in March 2012 and then last season raced just twice, winning last year's Hennessy and the 2013 Cheltenham Gold Cup.

    So on the form Invictus looks thrown in at tomorrow's weights. The major problems are the long lay off, the lack of a prep race and the doubts about any horse coming back after an injury. Trainer Alan King has been saying he is an absurd price and at 7/1-8/1 he looked tight enough. But he's now out to 10/1. He also won first time out two year's ago, so can win when fresh.

    For me he's not one to back each way as he could easily finish down the field through lack of fitness or lack of experience. But he could romp home and at 10/1 he's worth a punt. The danger for me is Lord Windermere. He won the RSA Chase last year and the last 3 winners of that race to contest the Hennessy the following year have all won.

    Invictus 10/1 win bet BOG

    I'm on!
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    SeanT said:

    While we're talking Asia... Incidentally, EVA Air Biz Class London-Bangkok is now superb. They've joined Staralliance so you get a nice lounge in LHR T3. They've also got full-on sleep podules in Biz - just as good as anything in BA (which is TWICE as expensive).

    The Dom Perignon doesn't stop. The food is sometimes brilliant (and never dull). They have a proper aired cheese board, not chilled dull obloids of Cheddar. Endless soothing and grooming from lovely young Taiwanese stewardesses.

    Phenomenal. Asia is kicking our butt from here to Betelgeuse.

    I have done Emirates and Singapore business this year along with BA. And BA is miles behind both in every way, except the most important: they go to almost all the places you need to get to.
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    surbiton said:



    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    The problem with my job is that the more you go away to sunny places, the more intolerable the chilliness of England becomes. I've just done a month in Zambia then Thailand (with a weekend in London in between), so coming back to 5C is a shocker.

    But my daughter forgets my face if I go away any more than this...

    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    But until then, Brrr....

    I am now having a massive G&T and listening to Bobby Darin, to cheer myself up.

    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.
    I find coming back from the Far East quite easy. My problem has been always when I am there.
    A weekend sleeping away got rid of the jet lag.

    I do have a sleep problem now [ more to do with age, methinks ]. I wake up after about 5 hours sleep feeling fully fresh but after a couple of hours as morning beckons really feel sleepy again.

    The worst for me by a long chalk is the US West Coast. There is nothing more miserable than waking up for the day before midnight and I do it all the time when I am over there.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,002
    SeanT said:



    Yes. Flying west-east - e.g. London-Bangkok - is always worse than flying east-west - Bangkok-London. You gain time coming home, so it is much easier to adjust. Especially if you ingest insane amount of anxiolytics and tranquilisers. And Dom Perignon.

    Had the lovely experience of flying first class SFO->LHR. That is the cure for jetlag!

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,372



    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.

    I stopped having a problem with jetlag when I got the trick of dropping off for a few hours on the way. I had what was basically a day trip to Shanghai the other day - out Monday, conference Tuesday, back Wednesday - and it was fine: you have a couple of days when you vaguely think you're a bit underslept and that's it. Works for longer trips too, so it's not a body clock thing. But I do take a sleeping pill to encourage the process. If you have to change planes it makes the process significantly more tiresome, though.

    Seoul seemed pretty earnest to me, though as you say quite friendly and open; like you I was solidly blocked with meetings. It seemed ironical that it was full of sober-looking people hurrying about their business while Ho Chi Minh City was more like Spain, with exuberant crowds, pavements cafes, blaring music and chaotic traffic. Spot the autocracy.

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    isam said:

    Struggling to think of a reason why Ian Watkins and Michael Adebelajo shouldn't be tortured.

    No possibility of being innocent, and the latter, who should be tried for treason, has the front to plead not guilty

    Among other reasons, because torture demeans us. Just because someone else behaves appallingly beyond imagination does not mean that we should act in the same way.
    No reason not to castrate the former and execute the latter, tho. Just get on with it.
    They would certainly have received whoe life tariffs until a few months ago iif found guilty. Now they certainly won't because the ECHR has ruled against their use.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SeanT said:

    While we're talking Asia... Incidentally, EVA Air Biz Class London-Bangkok is now superb. They've joined Staralliance so you get a nice lounge in LHR T3. They've also got full-on sleep podules in Biz - just as good as anything in BA (which is TWICE as expensive).

    The Dom Perignon doesn't stop. The food is sometimes brilliant (and never dull). They have a proper aired cheese board, not chilled dull obloids of Cheddar. Endless soothing and grooming from lovely young Taiwanese stewardesses.

    Phenomenal. Asia is kicking our butt from here to Betelgeuse.

    I have done Emirates and Singapore business this year along with BA. And BA is miles behind both in every way, except the most important: they go to almost all the places you need to get to.
    My frequent flyers are with Emirates and Singapore. But this time on the way back I hopped ona Qantas from Dubai to LHR [ Emirates partner ]. Wow !!
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    The problem with my job is that the more you go away to sunny places, the more intolerable the chilliness of England becomes. I've just done a month in Zambia then Thailand (with a weekend in London in between), so coming back to 5C is a shocker.

    But my daughter forgets my face if I go away any more than this...

    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    But until then, Brrr....

    I am now having a massive G&T and listening to Bobby Darin, to cheer myself up.

    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.
    I found the Koreans to be rather conservative and restrained compared to the Taiwanese.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    edited November 2013
    antifrank said:

    isam said:

    Struggling to think of a reason why Ian Watkins and Michael Adebelajo shouldn't be tortured.

    No possibility of being innocent, and the latter, who should be tried for treason, has the front to plead not guilty

    Among other reasons, because torture demeans us. Just because someone else behaves appallingly beyond imagination does not mean that we should act in the same way.
    (in non aggressive tones)

    But does it? & shouldn't we?

    To me it's one of those where I think they should be tortured, then I think "no, no that would drag us down to their level", then I think "on reflection, they should be tortured"

    I don't think it would be us acting the same, as our actions would be justified by their wrongdoing

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    SeanT said:

    While we're talking Asia... Incidentally, EVA Air Biz Class London-Bangkok is now superb. They've joined Staralliance so you get a nice lounge in LHR T3. They've also got full-on sleep podules in Biz - just as good as anything in BA (which is TWICE as expensive).

    The Dom Perignon doesn't stop. The food is sometimes brilliant (and never dull). They have a proper aired cheese board, not chilled dull obloids of Cheddar. Endless soothing and grooming from lovely young Taiwanese stewardesses.

    Phenomenal. Asia is kicking our butt from here to Betelgeuse.

    I have done Emirates and Singapore business this year along with BA. And BA is miles behind both in every way, except the most important: they go to almost all the places you need to get to.
    Leamington? Emirates fly from Birmingham and Manchester, I find them much better in that respect,and would rather stop in Dubai than end up in London, then have another hour or two on the train / car.
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    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    While we're talking Asia... Incidentally, EVA Air Biz Class London-Bangkok is now superb. They've joined Staralliance so you get a nice lounge in LHR T3. They've also got full-on sleep podules in Biz - just as good as anything in BA (which is TWICE as expensive).

    The Dom Perignon doesn't stop. The food is sometimes brilliant (and never dull). They have a proper aired cheese board, not chilled dull obloids of Cheddar. Endless soothing and grooming from lovely young Taiwanese stewardesses.

    Phenomenal. Asia is kicking our butt from here to Betelgeuse.

    I have done Emirates and Singapore business this year along with BA. And BA is miles behind both in every way, except the most important: they go to almost all the places you need to get to.
    My frequent flyers are with Emirates and Singapore. But this time on the way back I hopped ona Qantas from Dubai to LHR [ Emirates partner ]. Wow !!

    Yes, I've heard Qantas is the nads and Air New Zealand too. I guess they are directly competing with the Asians most of the time so have to be right up there too. BA is up against the European and US airlines a lot more, and they are not so much competition. I am flying the double decker plane to Hong Kong with BA next may. I'll be interested to see how that will shape up.

    Jesus - what a knob I sound. Apologies!!

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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    While we're talking Asia... Incidentally, EVA Air Biz Class London-Bangkok is now superb. They've joined Staralliance so you get a nice lounge in LHR T3. They've also got full-on sleep podules in Biz - just as good as anything in BA (which is TWICE as expensive).

    The Dom Perignon doesn't stop. The food is sometimes brilliant (and never dull). They have a proper aired cheese board, not chilled dull obloids of Cheddar. Endless soothing and grooming from lovely young Taiwanese stewardesses.

    Phenomenal. Asia is kicking our butt from here to Betelgeuse.

    I have done Emirates and Singapore business this year along with BA. And BA is miles behind both in every way, except the most important: they go to almost all the places you need to get to.
    Western airlines - i.e. European and American - are now absurdly outperformed by Asian and Mid East airlines, in almost every department. Only the branding keeps them going. How can Eva Air offer a superior biz class service London to Bangkok at virtually half the price?

    Yet they do. We are being eaten alive.

    There's also air miles and tier points. BA is very generous on upgrades and stuff like that in my experience. The last two times we have gone as a family to the US for a holiday all five of us have been moved up to business class. That kind of thing buys a lot of loyalty.

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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    Went on a date with a girl from North Kent last month and she said that homeless/drug addicts in hostels were being rehoused on the Kent coast (Margate, Broadstairs, Whitstable) and the locals are up in arms... just seen it confirmed (the homeless part) on BBC London News... Seaside towns in Sussex & Essex the destination

    To be fair , the girl from Newham who has been forced to Hastings can have my spare room if she likes... beautiful!
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    Scott_P said:


    If the Nats win, Scotland becomes independent. End of.

    There is another scenario

    Yes wins and the negotiations begin whereupon it is revealed that Eck has indeed been blowing smoke out his arse, and the Blueprint for Brigadoon is not what the Scots are actually going to get

    An election in Scotland where the SNP get thumped for lying, and the new administration "while respecting the wishes of the Scottish people for Separation" acknowledges that the negotiations are going to be complex and difficult and take many. many, many years to complete...
    Why do you hate your own country so much?
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    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.

    Interesting fact - the South Koreans style themselves the Italians of Asia. They are a passionate, argumentative bunch apparently. I didn't see much of that, but they are definitely a lot more open and immediately friendly than the Chinese and Japanese. And Christ they hate the Japanese. They really do.

    I stopped having a problem with jetlag when I got the trick of dropping off for a few hours on the way. I had what was basically a day trip to Shanghai the other day - out Monday, conference Tuesday, back Wednesday - and it was fine: you have a couple of days when you vaguely think you're a bit underslept and that's it. Works for longer trips too, so it's not a body clock thing. But I do take a sleeping pill to encourage the process. If you have to change planes it makes the process significantly more tiresome, though.

    Seoul seemed pretty earnest to me, though as you say quite friendly and open; like you I was solidly blocked with meetings. It seemed ironical that it was full of sober-looking people hurrying about their business while Ho Chi Minh City was more like Spain, with exuberant crowds, pavements cafes, blaring music and chaotic traffic. Spot the autocracy.

    Never been to Nam. I'd like to.

    The state is everywhere in Korea if my experience is anything to go by. There is a lot of central planning, with companies working together for the common good and a lot of government directed industrial policy. They are very wary of the big conglomerates like Samsung, Hyundai and LG there because they are not regarded as being team players. They also have a reputation for squeezing SMEs. While a lot of US and European start-ups aim to be bought out by bigger businesses, I was told that in Korea that is not seen as a desirable outcome for an SME - it means that you have failed in some way.

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Portillo and guests - Scotland's independence":

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcT11EIl7X8&amp
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    I'd love to see how the crossover between payrolls (and tax information) between HMRC and whatever the Scottish called their tax office would work....

    Especially that a lot of HMRC is based in Scotland at the moment.

    The mother of all clusterf**ks come to mind... especially with the IT systems..

    yee gods.

    Would the Scottish NHS be different? Are there any hospitals covering both sides of the border?
    Point of information: the Scottish NHS has always been different, right from the outset in 1948:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(Scotland)_Act_1947

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    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm f&cking bored of winter already, and it isn't even winter yet.

    Farcical climate.

    Which country are you visiting next? Times assignment maybe...
    The problem with my job is that the more you go away to sunny places, the more intolerable the chilliness of England becomes. I've just done a month in Zambia then Thailand (with a weekend in London in between), so coming back to 5C is a shocker.

    But my daughter forgets my face if I go away any more than this...

    My next gig is Ko Samui and Ko Tao in Thailand for the Times in January, then the Iles des Saintes and the French/Dutch Caribbean in Feb. Then the Barrier Reef and the Whitsundays in March.

    But until then, Brrr....

    I am now having a massive G&T and listening to Bobby Darin, to cheer myself up.

    Any coping with jet lag tips gratefully received. It's nearly a week since I got back from Korea - where it is much colder than here btw - and I am still falling asleep randomly during the evening and waking up for the day at around 4.30 am.
    Virgin Atlantic have a jet lag app built around exposure to sunlight & getting exercise - I found it helps a bit on my trips to Australia. Jet lag Fighter is the App. If nothing else it gives you something to do when you are awake in the middle of the night....

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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    AndyJS said:

    "Portillo and guests - Scotland's independence":

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcT11EIl7X8&amp

    Last night Portillo was saying Salmond had bottled it and was hoping for Devo Max* or Independence Lite

    *I don't know what Devo Max is... a halfway house?

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    The state is everywhere in Korea if my experience is anything to go by. There is a lot of central planning, with companies working together for the common good and a lot of government directed industrial policy.

    Does that work for the common good? If you have a good idea, are you allowed to try it and see what the market thinks, or is it just a case of 'tough, what we have now is for the common good'?
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    Question for those who know Parliamentary Procedures well. Now that the Wharton bill has passed the Commons, if it dies in the Lords can it be re-introduced next year and have the Parliament Act used to force it through with Commons approval alone?
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    AndyJS said:

    Are there any other Japan / David Sylvian fans on the site? I'm obsessed with the band, although I wasn't even around when they started.

    I saw them at the Hammersmith in the early 80s. It turned out to be their final tour, but I don't think it was thought to be at the time. As I remember it they announced that just before or during the Hammersmith stint. I came back early from a trip or holiday or something to see them, and had been dithering re whether to go or wait for the *next time*, so I was glad I'd come back. 'Ghosts' was one of those tracks I'd sing along to really loudly, doing lots of dramatic gesturing, when home alone.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Late I know, but condolences to Mike, Robert and all the family.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806


    The state is everywhere in Korea if my experience is anything to go by. There is a lot of central planning, with companies working together for the common good and a lot of government directed industrial policy.

    Does that work for the common good? If you have a good idea, are you allowed to try it and see what the market thinks, or is it just a case of 'tough, what we have now is for the common good'?
    The industrial chaebols which dominate industry are renowned for their corruption and intricate interlocking opaque shareholding structures. The national motivation is to surpass Japan, given their treatment as a Japanese colony, so they will be proud of their achievements but not happy at the domination of the 0.0001%.

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    stjohn said:

    "STJOHN", (St.John, The Jumps, Occasional Horseracing Nod), has a bet for tomorrow's big race. The Hennessy Gold Cup at Newbury.

    Invictus beat both Bob's Worth and Silviniaco Conti in his last outing at Ascot in the Reynoldstown Grade 2 Chase at Ascot over 3 miles, Good to Soft. That was back in February 2012, so he is coming back off a long lay off due to a tendon injury.

    Invictus beats Bob's Worth fair and square by 3L, receiving 3lbs. Bob's Worth does make a couple of mistakes but they're not major and the form of the race looks very solid.

    Bob's Worth went on to win the RSA Chase at Cheltenham in March 2012 and then last season raced just twice, winning last year's Hennessy and the 2013 Cheltenham Gold Cup.

    So on the form Invictus looks thrown in at tomorrow's weights. The major problems are the long lay off, the lack of a prep race and the doubts about any horse coming back after an injury. Trainer Alan King has been saying he is an absurd price and at 7/1-8/1 he looked tight enough. But he's now out to 10/1. He also won first time out two year's ago, so can win when fresh.

    For me he's not one to back each way as he could easily finish down the field through lack of fitness or lack of experience. But he could romp home and at 10/1 he's worth a punt. The danger for me is Lord Windermere. He won the RSA Chase last year and the last 3 winners of that race to contest the Hennessy the following year have all won.

    Invictus 10/1 win bet BOG

    I'm on!

    Invictus is a fair bet but it is a competitive race coming off a long lay off. As for Lord Windermere, they all finished in a heap in the RSA, and either they're all decent or it was an average race by recent standards. At a similar price to Invictus, I quite like Highland Lodge of Emma Lavelle's. Only one to get near a handicap snip at Wincanton and has been given enough time to get over the hard race he had there. For old times sake at about 20s I would be tempted to throw a couple of quid at former Gold Cup hero Imperial Commander in his swansong. He's nicely weighted but tbh it's not usually a race for one on the way down ew only. Whichever way, I think the field lacks a bit of quality compared to recent renewals.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    While we're talking Asia... Incidentally, EVA Air Biz Class London-Bangkok is now superb. They've joined Staralliance so you get a nice lounge in LHR T3. They've also got full-on sleep podules in Biz - just as good as anything in BA (which is TWICE as expensive).

    The Dom Perignon doesn't stop. The food is sometimes brilliant (and never dull). They have a proper aired cheese board, not chilled dull obloids of Cheddar. Endless soothing and grooming from lovely young Taiwanese stewardesses.

    Phenomenal. Asia is kicking our butt from here to Betelgeuse.

    I have done Emirates and Singapore business this year along with BA. And BA is miles behind both in every way, except the most important: they go to almost all the places you need to get to.
    My frequent flyers are with Emirates and Singapore. But this time on the way back I hopped ona Qantas from Dubai to LHR [ Emirates partner ]. Wow !!
    I did Qantas Biz Class Sydney-LHR last year (and will be doing the whole return thing next March). Meh.

    No better than BA.

    Asian airlines are better than European which are better than American which are better than African.
    Went to Oz last year, cattle class admittedly, but The Qantas A380 knocked the BA 747 into a cocked hat.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Test your knowledge of the location of English counties with this quiz:

    http://www.lizardpoint.com/geography/england-quiz.php
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    No price lengthening across the board tonight. Latest bookies to adjust: Coral, Ladbrokes, Paddy Power.

    Best prices - Scottish independence referendum 18 September 2014

    Yes 5/1 (BetVictor)
    No 1/5 (Betfair)
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    New Thread
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,372
    For those who don't get Populus's weekly survey on what people remember about the news, this week nobody remembers anything, more or less. 11% manage to recall the typhoon, 9% recall the alleged slaves, 8% think they've seen something about immigration, and everything else is lower. Scotland, Watkins, Nigella, Flowers, Iran, energy prices and Plebgate are all also-rans. The survey was done over the last two days, so really quite striking that people have barely noticed the Scottish debate.

    Something to remember as we shout to each other that the latest political development is going to DESTROY one or another party FOREVER. We politics nerds are the stamp collectors of modern life, earnestly obsessed, mildly despised, capable of raising faint public interest on rare occasions, and risibly amazed that our friends aren't as excited as we are that we've seen a report of an inverted Comoros Blue.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Neil said:


    What happens to people who need A&E, if they live near Berwick, but on the Scottish side?

    They'll probably die in the queue to get across the new border post.
    Very good Neil; another positive argument for border posts.

    They'll die in a foreign country and so won't impact rUK waiting times or death statistics.



This discussion has been closed.