I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
Starmer is more moderate than Corbyn but has a complete absence of charisma.
The candidate the Tories would fear most is Jess Phillips who is both centrist and charismatic (and from the Midlands while Starmer is from London) and she also tends to poll best in the few surveys of the public we have had too
not trying to get the worst candidate to win are you
No, the only candidate Tories I have spoken to have any concern about is Jess Phillips
She would be better than Jeremy anyway, and there are Labour MPs for whom that cannot be said.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
I've always thought Starmer would be an excellent No 2 to someone a bit/lot more flamboyant.
A possible problem for Boris, incidentally, is that he hasn't got such a No 2.
He does have the poisonous odious creepy sleazeball Gove
Gove sticks up for Scottish fishermen - the SNP should applaud this.
Yes he has done lots for them , I see them prospering. Have you been reading Brigadoon.
I’m sure if the SNP want some pointers to help turn around the dire state of Scottish education then Mr Gove did a fantastic job whilst at the DOE and could give the SNP some much needed guidance.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
Despots can be elected democratically, to start with at least. But a propensity to dodge accountability coupled with the strong authority our parliamentary model affords him does not make Boris a despot- just that opponents all need to work as hard as possible to hold him to account as best they can.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
The massive problem for Labour is Johnson actually doing what he's said he will do. The minimum wage has just gone up exactly as promised during the campaign, the government is going to legislate for NHS spending rises and the Treasury is about to completely reform investment criteria to spend more where it's needed and less where it's not, which means the taps turn on for those areas where we've just won loads of seats.
The next Labour leader needs to come to terms with Boris delivering on his promises and coming up with a strategy to win despite this.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
The biggest policy difference between Labour 2017 and Labour 2019 was their disastrous tack toward a second referendum. For all the vitrium directed at the current leadership, that move certainly didn't arise from Milne and Corbyn.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
Johnson is not a despot. He's too lazy for that. But as his prorogation attempt showed, he is not an instinctive democrat who believes in scrutiny or accountability. One of the themes of the next few years will be the changes he makes to ensure he avoids both as much as possible - and how those who have spent years making grandiose speeches opposing tyranny and in defence of liberty will cheer him on as he does it.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
As I said, his supporters are outraged...
Based on Johnson's, to date, only substantive policy decision, the Northern Ireland protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement, the lack of governance does actually lead to poor decision making.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
The massive problem for Labour is Johnson actually doing what he's said he will do. The minimum wage has just gone up exactly as promised during the campaign, the government is going to legislate for NHS spending rises and the Treasury is about to completely reform investment criteria to spend more where it's needed and less where it's not, which means the taps turn on for those areas where we've just won loads of seats.
The next Labour leader needs to come to terms with Boris delivering on his promises and coming up with a strategy to win despite this.
If Johnson delivers he will be re-elected with another big majority. But things are rarely that simple. When they go pear-shaped Labour needs someone who can pounce. It also needs its best people ion the front benches.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
He is also the only candidate to have sung on the theme tune of an absolutely dire TV comedy - Mr. Bean.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
Basically it needs to be a confident articulate optimist. Policies hardly matter.
I've always thought Starmer would be an excellent No 2 to someone a bit/lot more flamboyant.
A possible problem for Boris, incidentally, is that he hasn't got such a No 2.
He does have the poisonous odious creepy sleazeball Gove
Gove sticks up for Scottish fishermen - the SNP should applaud this.
I always get the impression that we are not told the whole story, in one place, about the EU and the UK fishing industry. Too many soundbites and one-liners.
The U.K. fishing industry made money selling off its fleet and quotas to the EU and now want them back for nothing?
Shhhhh. We don’t say things like that.
And the vast majority of the catch from UK waters is sold in Europe (66%) because British consumers don't eat much fish. And the fish we do eat (big prawns and tuna) we import.
I've always thought Starmer would be an excellent No 2 to someone a bit/lot more flamboyant.
A possible problem for Boris, incidentally, is that he hasn't got such a No 2.
He does have the poisonous odious creepy sleazeball Gove
Gove sticks up for Scottish fishermen - the SNP should applaud this.
I always get the impression that we are not told the whole story, in one place, about the EU and the UK fishing industry. Too many soundbites and one-liners.
The U.K. fishing industry made money selling off its fleet and quotas to the EU and now want them back for nothing?
Shhhhh. We don’t say things like that.
And the vast majority of the catch from UK waters is sold in Europe (66%) because British consumers don't eat much fish. And the fish we do eat (big prawns and tuna) we import.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
As I said, his supporters are outraged...
Based on Johnson's, to date, only substantive policy decision, the Northern Ireland protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement, the lack of governance does actually lead to poor decision making.
I'm not outraged, I just think you're a little bit sad and more than a bit deranged. I feel sorry for you more than anything else, if you can't let go of your brexit/Boris derangement syndrome it's going to be a very difficult few years for you (and a lot of others who can't let go).
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
The massive problem for Labour is Johnson actually doing what he's said he will do. The minimum wage has just gone up exactly as promised during the campaign, the government is going to legislate for NHS spending rises and the Treasury is about to completely reform investment criteria to spend more where it's needed and less where it's not, which means the taps turn on for those areas where we've just won loads of seats.
The next Labour leader needs to come to terms with Boris delivering on his promises and coming up with a strategy to win despite this.
Yes, there's plenty of room for Johnson to give money to the NHS and raise the minimum wage. Keeping his promises on that will probably have much more cut-through than extending trade negotiations into 202X.
Last time it took the financial crash for the Tories to get a look in. We might have to wait until the next recession for Labour to have a chance.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
She's a middle class woman who is desperate to pass herself off as working class, which I find a bit cringey and annoying, but doesn't make her the devil
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I was just looking at the people you named as able to do it (all centrists) and those you said couldn't (all to the left)
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
He is also the only candidate to have sung on the theme tune of an absolutely dire TV comedy - Mr. Bean.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
She's a middle class woman who is desperate to pass herself off as working class, which I find a bit cringey and annoying, but doesn't make her the devil
I think that's what people see in her, she's someone who practices being working class. It makes her seem fake. Dave was most popular when he came to terms with his background of wealth, Boris doesn't care that he's rich and from a born to rule type of background, and because he doesn't care no one else does. She needs to learn to come to terms with HR own background or people will see through her fake working class act.
It seems that not everyone on here is convinced that Climate Change is the result of burning fossil fuels. Well, Exxon scientists seem to be and have known about it since 1982. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGVW9vJ773k
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
Johnson is not a despot. He's too lazy for that. But as his prorogation attempt showed, he is not an instinctive democrat who believes in scrutiny or accountability. One of the themes of the next few years will be the changes he makes to ensure he avoids both as much as possible - and how those who have spent years making grandiose speeches opposing tyranny and in defence of liberty will cheer him on as he does it.
I think the absolute desire to get brexit done while been blocked in parliament is a democratic conflict of direct over representative democracy.
While i can easily justify his actions on this case, you cant trust politicians to only use such powers in such once in a generation situations.
The biggest policy difference between Labour 2017 and Labour 2019 was their disastrous tack toward a second referendum. For all the vitrium directed at the current leadership, that move certainly didn't arise from Milne and Corbyn.
Yes, it's interesting also how most of the contenders were on the wrong side of that rift in the party. I think it's only Nandy who was publicly against a 2nd referendum?
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I was just looking at the people you named as able to do it (all centrists) and those you said couldn't (all to the left)
I don't think they are centrists. Nandy, Thornberry, Starmer and Phillips are all well to the left of Tony Blair, for example. What they all are, though, is pragmatists and compromisers, and non-factional. That last bit is the key.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
I struggled with it for a long time, personally speaking it's not easy to leave behind one's past and move on.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
As I said, his supporters are outraged...
Based on Johnson's, to date, only substantive policy decision, the Northern Ireland protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement, the lack of governance does actually lead to poor decision making.
I'm not outraged, I just think you're a little bit sad and more than a bit deranged. I feel sorry for you more than anything else, if you can't let go of your brexit/Boris derangement syndrome it's going to be a very difficult few years for you (and a lot of others who can't let go).
You tell me I'm mentally ill. What a lovely person!
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
As I said, his supporters are outraged...
Based on Johnson's, to date, only substantive policy decision, the Northern Ireland protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement, the lack of governance does actually lead to poor decision making.
I'm not outraged, I just think you're a little bit sad and more than a bit deranged. I feel sorry for you more than anything else, if you can't let go of your brexit/Boris derangement syndrome it's going to be a very difficult few years for you (and a lot of others who can't let go).
You tell me I'm mentally ill. What a lovely person!
Like I said, it's going to be a tough few years for you unless you can let go. It seems as though you're stuck in phase one out of five and got into a feedback loop. Eventually you will have to accept that Brexit is happening and that Boris is the PM and there is nothing that can stop it. The sooner you come to terms with these two facts, the better you will feel in the long term. I mean even the FT seems to have accepted it.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
She's a middle class woman who is desperate to pass herself off as working class, which I find a bit cringey and annoying, but doesn't make her the devil
I've been informed by my friend within the Labour ranks that she doesn't have much chance. He was going to vote for Rayner fwiw.
Gosh - not one of them can break 10%. Says it all.
TBF when a party is in serious trouble the members could do a lot worse that waiting to hear what the candidates propose to do to get it out.
There is no rush at all. Labour should install Ma Beckett for a year and have the runners and riders for Leader go through a gruelling selection process around Great Britain to see who has the chops - and who does not. That selection process should be open to all, not just Momentum members.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I was just looking at the people you named as able to do it (all centrists) and those you said couldn't (all to the left)
I don't think they are centrists. Nandy, Thornberry, Starmer and Phillips are all well to the left of Tony Blair, for example. What they all are, though, is pragmatists and compromisers, and non-factional. That last bit is the key.
You could say exactly the same about Tom Watson. Look what happened to him.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
I struggled with it for a long time, personally speaking it's not easy to leave behind one's past and move on.
But you're not leaving your past behind. You're moving on from it and not allowing it to define you. That last bit was the biggest struggle for me and still is in some ways - I always feel I am being judged in meetings with people who were clearly educated privately because of my accent and less than impeccable mixing skills! I suspect you are proud of where you have come from, as am I, and as we should be.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
I think this is the root of the problem, especially for GenXers. Economic class and cultural class are not the same thing. Lots of those still economically "working class" aspire not to be, while many GenXers whose parents were C2s while of working age went to University and have white collar jobs, and don't know what "being working class" means - except as a cultural badge.
I think this is the root of the breakdown of class-based voting patterns over the last 30 years.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I was just looking at the people you named as able to do it (all centrists) and those you said couldn't (all to the left)
I don't think they are centrists. Nandy, Thornberry, Starmer and Phillips are all well to the left of Tony Blair, for example. What they all are, though, is pragmatists and compromisers, and non-factional. That last bit is the key.
You could say exactly the same about Tom Watson. Look what happened to him.
Watson was very factional until he came up against people who were even more so than him!
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I was just looking at the people you named as able to do it (all centrists) and those you said couldn't (all to the left)
I don't think they are centrists. Nandy, Thornberry, Starmer and Phillips are all well to the left of Tony Blair, for example. What they all are, though, is pragmatists and compromisers, and non-factional. That last bit is the key.
You could say exactly the same about Tom Watson. Look what happened to him.
Watson was very factional until he came up against people who were even more so than him!
I suppose so, and I wonder if he learned anything from that.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
I am not sure where the Phillips not being left wing comes from. The causes she seems keenest on look like archetypal left wing ones to me.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
Whoever ran against Johnson today would lose. But the next election will be in 2023/24. What Labour needs is someone who can hold Johnson to account in the Commons, take advantage of Tory slip-ups and not frighten potential LibDem voters. I think there are several candidates who have the potential to do that (Starmer, Nandy, Phillips, Thornberry) and some who definitely couldn’t (Long Bailey, Lavery, Lewis).
Basically it needs to be a centrist.
I don't think that's necessarily right. But it does need to be someone who is competent, can unify the party and get the best talent into the shadow cabinet and who does not look like he/she hates the country. It's going to be a long, hard road back whatever, but for Labour to have even the remotest of chances the far-left has to return to the periphery.
I was just looking at the people you named as able to do it (all centrists) and those you said couldn't (all to the left)
I don't think they are centrists. Nandy, Thornberry, Starmer and Phillips are all well to the left of Tony Blair, for example. What they all are, though, is pragmatists and compromisers, and non-factional. That last bit is the key.
You could say exactly the same about Tom Watson. Look what happened to him.
Watson was very factional until he came up against people who were even more so than him!
I suppose so, and I wonder if he learned anything from that.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
The rukles are laid down and can only be changed by conference.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
Curse of thenew thread: What the Liberal left simply do not get is that most people are either not poor at all or do not wish to be made poor by paying extra taxes for those who they perceive to be shirkers. It doesn't really matter whether they are correct or not in that belief. People are happy with a safety net but not when it appears to encompass folk who they say as lazy or feckless. The language of the left is wholly focussed around food banks/bedroom taxes/minorities/wokeness, etc,etc. Oh and not to forget anti Israel/USA/Britain.... The only person they'd accept as a monarch is Queen Meghan and they'd happily see Owen Jones thrown from the rooftops. Those contradictions aside they're doomed I tell you doomed! Sedgefield, Dartford,Totnes, Copeland, Conwy, Walsall, Mansfield, Yarmouth and even Hastings don't want to know.
The left's core vote is those of working age on state benefits and who work for the public sector and they build from there
Gordon Brown did a remarkable job of growing both of these out of all recognition.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
I think this is the root of the problem, especially for GenXers. Economic class and cultural class are not the same thing. Lots of those still economically "working class" aspire not to be, while many GenXers whose parents were C2s while of working age went to University and have white collar jobs, and don't know what "being working class" means - except as a cultural badge.
I think this is the root of the breakdown of class-based voting patterns over the last 30 years.
Phillips has held on to her Brummie accent. Not uncommon for people from her background to lose their regional accent, especially with her sort of school, and, often worse, adopt some sort of 'mocnkey'. She also worked for five years a manager at the Women's Aid Foundation, where, presumably, sounding like a Lady Bountiful could often have been counter-productive.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
I think you have Nandy and RLB wrong. RLB risks starting a civil war (she's continuity Corbyn, no she isn't blah blah)… Nandy on the other hand looks more like a compromise acceptable to different wings (I think she was Owen Jones' favoured candidate), but I don't know enough about her to tell if she could look like a credible PM.
Bettingwise, I think the Keir looks a bit short. Thornberry is value at over 60/1.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
David Milliband available at 36.
Hilarious. If I didn't have a remortgage coming up I'd lay into that for at least 5 grand.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
Sums up why the LDs fail to connect with most voters.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I struggled with it for a long time, personally speaking it's not easy to leave behind one's past and move on.
But you're not leaving your past behind. You're moving on from it and not allowing it to define you. That last bit was the biggest struggle for me and still is in some ways - I always feel I am being judged in meetings with people who were clearly educated privately because of my accent and less than impeccable mixing skills! I suspect you are proud of where you have come from, as am I, and as we should be.
My mother, born 1903 and educated privately, spoke beautifully as did her sisters, although in her very last years her original 'rural' accent reappeared a little. Same applied to all her sisters. Her brothers, who their father expected to follow him onto the farm and went to the village school, were probably almost indistinguishable from the farm workers they were expected to employ. It's quite interesting to reflect on the accents at maternal family gatherings!
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
David Milliband available at 36.
Where's that? I've got lays on Nigel Farage, Jo Swinson and Ken Clarke all at 22/1 or less for next PM.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
David Milliband available at 36.
Hilarious. If I didn't have a remortgage coming up I'd lay into that for at least 5 grand.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
There are so many kinds of working class, though. Maybe this is the one insight that being born working class has given me. Working class is not a single way of seeing the world or of behaving. My wife's family background is rural, working class and catholic. It is different in just about every way to my working class, urban, entirely non-religious background. What made both families working class was income and occupation, not what we thought about things.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
If he struggled with the CPS (admittedly like everyone else) I cannot see him sorting out Labour which needs somebody energetic, decisive, clear thinking and articulate. Starmer isn’t that.
But from the point of view of Labour members, his back story isn’t the greatest given that Labour seem determined to try and fight the class and type wars of the nineteenth century. The millionaire privately educated London human rights lawyer is not somebody they will be interested in when they are going big oh Old Etonians.
I don't thinhk it's actually Labour members who are focused on class and type - the advice to pick a woman, pick a working class candidate, pick a northerner is mostlky coming from outside the party, not all of whom wish us well. The priority for members is to pick someone who will (a) Maintain a reasonably left-wing stance (b) Not start a civil war and (c) look like a credible PM.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a. RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
Agree with this.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
David Milliband available at 36.
Where's that? I've got lays on Nigel Farage, Jo Swinson and Ken Clarke all at 22/1 or less for next PM.
Starmer is too male, too middle class, and too Metropolitan. He also can't stop talking down to people. His only hope is to embrace Marxist policies and lead Labour into the abyss.
Thornberry has the advantage of a vagina, but is even worse at the talking down. However, Laaour is now a middle-class party so she might do it.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
She's a middle class woman who is desperate to pass herself off as working class, which I find a bit cringey and annoying, but doesn't make her the devil
I've been informed by my friend within the Labour ranks that she doesn't have much chance. He was going to vote for Rayner fwiw.
Phillips is the 'telling hard truths' candidate. Knows she has no chance, but feels there has to be someone there who is going to properly dish into Corbynism. Would probably get the same % of the vote Kendall did if she actually gets on the ballot.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
Occupation and background are also important, I guess. But in the end, it seems to be self-defining and a lot of people struggle to admit they are no longer what they were. I wonder how your mates' kids - if and when they have them - will see themselves. That seems to be the Jess Phillips issue.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
He is also the only candidate to have sung on the theme tune of an absolutely dire TV comedy - Mr. Bean.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
Occupation and background are also important, I guess. But in the end, it seems to be self-defining and a lot of people struggle to admit they are no longer what they were. I wonder how your mates' kids - if and when they have them - will see themselves. That seems to be the Jess Phillips issue.
'Clogs to clogs in three generations!' used to be said in Lancashire. I'm involved in a project for my U3a ...... "What was my family doing in 1931" (The 1931 Census was lost in the Blitz) and although I've not seen anyone else's yet; it's our 2020 project, and it's surprising to see the range of occupations. Especially when one knows what the children and grandchildren of the then teens and twenties are doing!
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
My granddaughter and her boyfriend, both middle-class Labour voting professionals, live in a somewhat twee 'back to back' in Leeds. It's a conservation area, or something of the sort. Her great grandparents would be horrified.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
Occupation and background are also important, I guess. But in the end, it seems to be self-defining and a lot of people struggle to admit they are no longer what they were. I wonder how your mates' kids - if and when they have them - will see themselves. That seems to be the Jess Phillips issue.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
I may be completely wrong, but my guess is that most people born in the UK who are over the age of 50 were born into working class homes of one kind or another.
Starmer is too male, too middle class, and too Metropolitan. He also can't stop talking down to people. His only hope is to embrace Marxist policies and lead Labour into the abyss.
Thornberry has the advantage of a vagina, but is even worse at the talking down. However, Laaour is now a middle-class party so she might do it.
The only real joy i get with identity politics is when the Tories break a glass ceiling for some group/oppressed minority/insert grievance and the left start foaming at the mouth about it.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
I may be completely wrong, but my guess is that most people born in the UK who are over the age of 50 were born into working class homes of one kind or another.
To slightly misquote Lincoln, 'God must love working class people, he made so many of them!'
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who became a chair (not a CEO) of an NHS Trust; middle class Brummie, went to a secondary school which demands high academic standard entry. Not 'horny handed toilers', but no silver spoons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
There are so many kinds of working class, though. Maybe this is the one insight that being born working class has given me. Working class is not a single way of seeing the world or of behaving. My wife's family background is rural, working class and catholic. It is different in just about every way to my working class, urban, entirely non-religious background. What made both families working class was income and occupation, not what we thought about things.
A good point. I have no experience of rural working class. I've lived in a slum, long demolished, and also on a new council estate. My parents were Catholic but a lot of my friends and neighbours weren't. No strife.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Chuka has NEVER struck me as 'working class". I don't know why Phillips is 'faux working class". Her father was a teacher and her mother a senior NHS manager who becameons either.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
Even my bleating about "on benefits in a northern council house in the 80s" it sounds substantially less grim than that!
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
Occupation and background are also important, I guess. But in the end, it seems to be self-defining and a lot of people struggle to admit they are no longer what they were. I wonder how your mates' kids - if and when they have them - will see themselves. That seems to be the Jess Phillips issue.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
If I punctuate this with a video of the Four Yorkshiremen, do I get exiled to ConHome?
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
I think you are underestimating him. He has had to have operated like he has because of the shadow of team Milne/Corbyn. If he becomes his own man he'll be a totally different proposition.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
There are so many kinds of working class, though. Maybe this is the one insight that being born working class has given me. Working class is not a single way of seeing the world or of behaving. My wife's family background is rural, working class and catholic. It is different in just about every way to my working class, urban, entirely non-religious background. What made both families working class was income and occupation, not what we thought about things.
A good point. I have no experience of rural working class. I've lived in a slum, long demolished, and also on a new council estate. My parents were Catholic but a lot of my friends and neighbours weren't. No strife.
When I first went back to my wife's house in 1983 I could not believe it: the place was heated by a coal fire that had to be lit with matches and kindling every morning and they had an outside toilet!! And her Dad followed the hunt, went ferreting and had a gun licence. It was not North London!!! It was a totally different world, but just as working class as the one I came from.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Only by occupation and earnings, they would still be middle class by education and background.
The England football team and popstars and self made non graduate millionaires are working class by education and background but middle class by occupation and earnings
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Only by occupation and earnings, they would still be middle class by education and background.
The England football team and popstars and self made non graduate millionaires are working class by education and background but middle class by occupation and earnings
Everyone has different indicators of what makes someone x class, but, for me, current wealth isn't one of them
I think that Johnson would find Starmer quite a tough proposition. While he's been in the shadow of Corbyn he has been very much curtailed but as leader he would be fairly ruthless
There is no doubt that he would be a significant improvement on Corbyn but frankly that should not be the bar. I find him dull, slightly pompous and overly sure of himself. A typical lawyer really.
I would pay good money to see Johnson subject to forensic questioning from which he could not escape by bluster.
You are still underestimating him. Blustering through PMQs is a piece of cake. Appearing before the committee chairs is starting to look more challenging.
Nah, the select committees become a lot less important now that there's a majority. We can simply ignore anything and everything they say.
Of course Johnson will ignore all accountability. Yet his supporters get outraged when he is called for the despot he is.
I mean look at yourself. Calling a democratically elected leader a despot. Honestly, it's just sad and more than a little bit deranged.
As I said, his supporters are outraged...
Based on Johnson's, to date, only substantive policy decision, the Northern Ireland protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement, the lack of governance does actually lead to poor decision making.
I'm not outraged, I just think you're a little bit sad and more than a bit deranged. I feel sorry for you more than anything else, if you can't let go of your brexit/Boris derangement syndrome it's going to be a very difficult few years for you (and a lot of others who can't let go).
You tell me I'm mentally ill. What a lovely person!
If some right wing rando on the internet manufacturing phony concern isn't the sine qua non of empathetic loveliness, i don't know what is.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
Non betting glasses on, they have to pick a woman. There is no charismatic man on their books, and Starmer is too stiff to beat Boris. Jess Phillips would be best I reckon, faux working class cabaret act notwithstanding
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Yep, that is all fair enough. But it makes Emily Thornberry working class!
Working class is a badge to be worn with pride by some ...politicians these days are trying their hardest to outdo each other about the toughness of their growing up eg
Mr. (Miss? Sorry, I always forget [you, and people with 'blue' in their name]) Sarissa, when I were a lad I had to have two charitable bursaries to go to public school.
Jamie Vardy and Sir Alan Sugar are both working class. My archaeology graduate friend OTOH is always staying middle class no matter how poor (And he's definitely not rich) he is. It can be about money but not always, with some people it's just inherent from upbringing.
I still struggle to see why so many people who are born into working class families struggle with admitting they have become middle class. All that's happened is that you have a different kind of job and your income has changed. It's nothing to do with attitudes or lifestyle.
It means you can see through working class eyes. You have walked in working class shoes, even if you are now middle class. If you were born middle class, it's much harder to identify with working class issues. There is a difference.
I didnt even pass through working class, i went from underclass to middle class skipping entirely the WC. My middle class labour voting other half just raises her eyebrows when i do anything she considers pleb like. Who knew not putting both pieces of cutlery together at an angle on the edge of your plate signifies that you have finished eating....
I was brought up in a back to back slum with no indoor lav in Oldham. People still detect my northern accent though I left Oldham and the north over 65 years ago. But I'm now well-off middle class with very middle class LibDem children living in leafy Barnes.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
If I punctuate this with a video of the Four Yorkshiremen, do I get exiled to ConHome?
Dear Supporter, ... We have changed politics for good in many ways since launching under 9 months ago. We are now assessing thoughts and ideas as to what our next steps might be. This does not need to be rushed, tempting though it is.
So, this being the last day of a tumultuous year in British politics, I thought it would be good to list my top 3 moments. I’ve tried to be as objective as possible and to select the 3 things which, for me, best sum up what the year just gone has been all about. In reverse order –
3. Corbyn’s Brexit Pivot
I’ve chosen this because of its enormous political impact. By recognizing the need to offer a second Referendum Jeremy Corbyn at a stroke confounded the critics who had relentlessly smeared him with the tag of “secret No Deal Brexiteer”. It showed strong leadership to adopt this policy against what was probably his personal instincts and it paid off big time at the polls. Yes, the election produced a Tory majority of 80 but it would have been well into 3 digits without this brave move by the Labour leader.
2. The Neil Monologue
This was one of those “I remember where I was when …” events, such was its visceral impact on virtually the entire nation. It only lasted 7 minutes but to its target – Boris Johnson – it must have seemed like 7 hours. Before it, Johnson was the amiable clown seeking to entertain first and govern a distant second. After it, he was the great charlatan dodging scrutiny in a cynical pursuit of power for nothing but his own self glorification. Impact on the election? Hard to say, but surely cost the Tories several seats. Who knows what their majority would have been without this remarkable intervention by the BBC’s flagpole correspondent.
1. Labour Gain Putney
Stiff competition (see above) but this has to be THE highlight of the political year. On a night when Labour were losing seats all across the North and the Midlands, the less evolved members of the White Working Class swallowing “Boris” and “Brexit” hook line & sinker, here in one of the most affluent and civilized parts of the capital city the once narrow and sectarian party of the “workers” showed itself to be now the 'broad church' champion of progressive values and took the seat. Even more strikingly, it was the only seat they did gain. Very special.
Dear Supporter, ... We have changed politics for good in many ways since launching under 9 months ago. We are now assessing thoughts and ideas as to what our next steps might be. This does not need to be rushed, tempting though it is.
Yours
I`ve just received the same email - jointly from Farage and Tice.
I had Starmer as a big loser, RLB slightly better and Rayner, Thornberry, and a few non runners as big winners, but I closed them all out for a loss on the news that Rayner isn't running.
I've still got Chuka at a 2.5k winner, any inside on whether he's going to switch again again again?
The only proper working class candidate of them all.
Hmmm
"Umunna's mother, Patricia Milmo, a solicitor, is of English-Irish background. Umunna's maternal grandparents were Joan Frances (Morley) and Sir Helenus Milmo QC, a High Court judge."
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Yep, that is all fair enough. But it makes Emily Thornberry working class!
She is a tricky one to define isn't she? Very middle class parents and early childhood, which then disappeared, Sometimes the model breaks!
Jamie Vardy and Sir Alan Sugar are both working class. My archaeology graduate friend OTOH is always staying middle class no matter how poor (And he's definitely not rich) he is. It can be about money but not always, with some people it's just inherent from upbringing.
"Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Yep, that is all fair enough. But it makes Emily Thornberry working class!"
SO is right. It`s not about money. I think it`s more about taste. David Beckham was - and still is - working class. I don`t think an individual can change class, but do believe that a child`s class may be different from his/her parents`.
Mr. (Miss? Sorry, I always forget [you, and people with 'blue' in their name]) Sarissa, when I were a lad I had to have two charitable bursaries to go to public school.
"Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Yep, that is all fair enough. But it makes Emily Thornberry working class!"
SO is right. It`s not about money. I think it`s more about taste. David Beckham was - and still is - working class. I don`t think an individual can change class, but do believe that a child`s class may be different from his/her parents`.
We talk too much about class IMO.
similarly as said of Wayne Rooney, you can take the boy out of the Estate, but not the Estate out of the boy.
Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
Wrong on all counts I'd say. Although even if Prince Andrew was disowned he'd have the connections to avoid a minimum wage job.
Comments
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
The next Labour leader needs to come to terms with Boris delivering on his promises and coming up with a strategy to win despite this.
For all the vitrium directed at the current leadership, that move certainly didn't arise from Milne and Corbyn.
Based on Johnson's, to date, only substantive policy decision, the Northern Ireland protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement, the lack of governance does actually lead to poor decision making.
I don;t see how voters will not be offered the same sort of thing next time around.
Last time it took the financial crash for the Tories to get a look in. We might have to wait until the next recession for Labour to have a chance.
Well, Exxon scientists seem to be and have known about it since 1982.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGVW9vJ773k
While i can easily justify his actions on this case, you cant trust politicians to only use such powers in such once in a generation situations.
Never going to happen of course.
Starmer ticks b and c, and is maknig an effort on a.
RLB ticks a and b, open questin on c
Philips doesn't really tick any of them IMO
Nandy ticks a and c, not sure about b
Keeping an open mind. Let's see what they have to say in more detail.
I think this is the root of the breakdown of class-based voting patterns over the last 30 years.
Mike has said a couple of times that before betting he is waiting for the rules to be laid down. I think that we already know this - as stated by Herdson in his header the other week?
Nandy on the other hand looks more like a compromise acceptable to different wings (I think she was Owen Jones' favoured candidate), but I don't know enough about her to tell if she could look like a credible PM.
Bettingwise, I think the Keir looks a bit short. Thornberry is value at over 60/1.
I've got lays on Nigel Farage, Jo Swinson and Ken Clarke all at 22/1 or less for next PM.
They have 9 on Hamilton driving for Ferrari in 2021.
Undecided. Might be value.
Also, not doing this myself because the long term nature puts me off, but Giovinazzi at 2.2 to beat Raikkonen in qualifying could be worth a look.
Thornberry has the advantage of a vagina, but is even worse at the talking down. However, Laaour is now a middle-class party so she might do it.
I understand the working class ambivalent attitude to authority, community solidarity, resistance to "woke" political correctness. I guess that's why I'm left wing and anti-PC. I'd vote Labour if I was in a Tory/Labour seat. I'm not seduced by Johnson though I applaud many of his manifesto promises. I'd vote for "our Jess" if I were a Labour member.
Her great grandparents would be horrified.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ue7wM0QC5LE
#FourYorkshiremen
It can be about money but not always, with some people it's just inherent from upbringing.
Dear Supporter,
...
We have changed politics for good in many ways since launching under 9 months ago. We are now assessing thoughts and ideas as to what our next steps might be. This does not need to be rushed, tempting though it is.
Yours
3. Corbyn’s Brexit Pivot
I’ve chosen this because of its enormous political impact. By recognizing the need to offer a second Referendum Jeremy Corbyn at a stroke confounded the critics who had relentlessly smeared him with the tag of “secret No Deal Brexiteer”. It showed strong leadership to adopt this policy against what was probably his personal instincts and it paid off big time at the polls. Yes, the election produced a Tory majority of 80 but it would have been well into 3 digits without this brave move by the Labour leader.
2. The Neil Monologue
This was one of those “I remember where I was when …” events, such was its visceral impact on virtually the entire nation. It only lasted 7 minutes but to its target – Boris Johnson – it must have seemed like 7 hours. Before it, Johnson was the amiable clown seeking to entertain first and govern a distant second. After it, he was the great charlatan dodging scrutiny in a cynical pursuit of power for nothing but his own self glorification. Impact on the election? Hard to say, but surely cost the Tories several seats. Who knows what their majority would have been without this remarkable intervention by the BBC’s flagpole correspondent.
1. Labour Gain Putney
Stiff competition (see above) but this has to be THE highlight of the political year. On a night when Labour were losing seats all across the North and the Midlands, the less evolved members of the White Working Class swallowing “Boris” and “Brexit” hook line & sinker, here in one of the most affluent and civilized parts of the capital city the once narrow and sectarian party of the “workers” showed itself to be now the 'broad church' champion of progressive values and took the seat. Even more strikingly, it was the only seat they did gain. Very special.
Interesting.
"Do you think money is the determinate? My friends who are pretty wealthy now are still working class I’d say, just with money. When DelBoy sold the watch he was still working class. If Prince Andrew is disowned and starts to work at minimum wage, he still won’t be.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Yep, that is all fair enough. But it makes Emily Thornberry working class!"
SO is right. It`s not about money. I think it`s more about taste. David Beckham was - and still is - working class. I don`t think an individual can change class, but do believe that a child`s class may be different from his/her parents`.
We talk too much about class IMO.
The kids will be middle class I'd say, they all seem to go to private schools. The kids of working class who've done well.
For me, once you are paying to send your kids to private school (as opposed to them being there on some kind of bursary) you are probably no longer working class, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd say that was one of the key indicators. It does not mean that your attitudes have changed, but on a socio-economic level your circumstances are very different. But, as I say, in the end it is a very personal call. If people can self-identify as women or as black, they can surely be working class if they say they are!
If someone educated at Eton who went to Oxbridge fell on hard times and worked behind the ramp at McDonalds to survive, would they be working class? I think if you went to a comp, lived on a council estate then got rich in your adulthood, you're still working class
The England football team are working class I'd say
Yep, that is all fair enough. But it makes Emily Thornberry working class!"
SO is right. It`s not about money. I think it`s more about taste. David Beckham was - and still is - working class. I don`t think an individual can change class, but do believe that a child`s class may be different from his/her parents`.
We talk too much about class IMO.
similarly as said of Wayne Rooney, you can take the boy out of the Estate, but not the Estate out of the boy.