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  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Eck: "I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by a blogger who claims I'm in the right."
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    What I can't understand is why the SNP don't accept the completely obvious:

    The letter from Mario Tenreiro, of the commission's secretariat general, stated: "It would, of course, be legally possible to renegotiate the situation of the UK and Scotland within the EU. Of course, this would imply a change of the treaties which could only be done by unanimity of all member states."

    How could it possibly be otherwise? All sorts of details, such as the level of budget contribution, Schengen, the Euro, the commissioners, number of MEPs etc all would need to be agreed. There's no provision for arranging it any other way.

    Of course it is also true that, in practice, our EU friends are not going to do anything disruptive in terms of trade, although Spain is a complicating factor.

    It would be interesting if a Scottish departure triggered a formal Lisbon re-negotiation. A useful opportunity, which UKIPers would no doubt want to sabotage by ensuring there was a Labour government in place ready to get absolutely nothing in return as usual.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    dr_spyn said:

    Eck: "I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by a blogger who claims I'm in the right."

    "A Jammy Piece In Our Time !!"

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    What I can't understand is why the SNP don't accept the completely obvious:

    The letter from Mario Tenreiro, of the commission's secretariat general, stated: "It would, of course, be legally possible to renegotiate the situation of the UK and Scotland within the EU. Of course, this would imply a change of the treaties which could only be done by unanimity of all member states."

    How could it possibly be otherwise? All sorts of details, such as the level of budget contribution, Schengen, the Euro, the commissioners, number of MEPs etc all would need to be agreed. There's no provision for arranging it any other way.

    Of course it is also true that, in practice, our EU friends are not going to do anything disruptive in terms of trade, although Spain is a complicating factor.

    It would be interesting if a Scottish departure triggered a formal Lisbon re-negotiation. A useful opportunity, which UKIPers would no doubt want to sabotage by ensuring there was a Labour government in place ready to get absolutely nothing in return as usual.
    Scotland would stay in the EU but get screwed on the conditions and a desperate Eck would have little choice but to agree, bar one or two bits of face saving.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Fake fop, can't be trusted.
    Green c**p, payday loans and now cigarettes – the Tory leadership needs to avoid losing its sense of self

    Last week’s “green c**p” folly was rather dismal. I wrote a post about it at the time. The issue wasn’t so much whether Cameron had or hadn’t said those words, but more that they sum up one of his most grievous flaws. One minute, he’s a committed green ranger, defining himself and his party by their environmentalism. The next, he’s a hard-headed energy pragmatist, who barely signs up to any of that stuff. Or is he? No, maybe, yes, don’t know. It leaves you wondering how tightly David Cameron holds on to any of these convictions of his.

    I don’t mention this again just to depress you, but because the flip-floppery highlighted by the “green c**p” story has continued into this week. A couple of days ago, we discovered that the Government is to introduce a cap on the cost of payday loans – despite previously resisting one. And today it’s announced that they’re also looking to consign cigarettes to plain packaging before the next election – despite pledging not to only a few months ago.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/11/green-cp-payday-loans-and-now-cigarettes-the-tory-leadership-needs-to-avoid-losing-its-sense-of-self.html
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.

    Helpful hint: read the article, not just the headline. What he says is that we would have to fight like hell to ensure Scotland stayed in the EU, implying that he sees a real risk that it otherwise wouldn't. So a political not legal point, (which makes his status as "judicial expert" a bit irrelevant) and saying pretty much the opposite to what you want it to say..

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Bobajob said:



    What's stopping the Liberals cutting and running in the Autumn if they decide they have nothing left to lose? Might as well chance it on the off chance they get some sort of dividend for pulling the plug on the Coalition.

    That's easy to answer. The Lib Dems have been relying on a coalition government for decades. One they get power in one, they need to show that they are sane and serious partners in government. There will be a time to cut and run, but this autumn is far too early for that. Autumn 2014 at the earliest, IMHO, and more likely winter/spring 2015.

    Remarkably, the coalition has been working quite well in my opinion. Long term, this may be a great advertisement for a change in the electoral system, which will help the Lib Dems.

    Perhaps the AV referendum came a GE too early ...

    Then again, I would say that given my political leanings, and you might well say otherwise.
  • Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.

    You really should read these articles before pontificating....

    "But the significance of that disclosure was quickly undermined after it emerged that Salmond's aides had downloaded the letter from a nationalist website, Newsnet Scotland, and had not been officially sent that opinion by Brussels."
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    EU certainty from the Cast Iron incompetent.
    John Payne ‏@Rosehaven69 7h

    @ShuramasS @2tweetaboutit @jlj21964 Cameron describing why we should have a referendum on Lisbon T. BEFORE ELECTION!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ2n7oMcSi0
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013

    Scotland would stay in the EU but get screwed on the conditions and a desperate Eck would have little choice but to agree, bar one or two bits of face saving.

    Precisely so. Their bargaining position would be extremely weak, but in practice no-one would want them to leave; it would just be too messy. So there would be horse-trading as usual. It's near-inconceivable that they'd actually be excluded, but the exact mechanism, timing and conditions would require negotiation.

    Clearly there are at least four very sticky points:

    1) Spain's position: they'd have to make Scotland sweat for internal reasons. They might insist on Scotland having some kind of associate membership for a period.

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    4) The budget and the rebate.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    Possibly a slight exaggeration?
  • Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    What I can't understand is why the SNP don't accept the completely obvious:

    The letter from Mario Tenreiro, of the commission's secretariat general, stated: "It would, of course, be legally possible to renegotiate the situation of the UK and Scotland within the EU. Of course, this would imply a change of the treaties which could only be done by unanimity of all member states."

    How could it possibly be otherwise? All sorts of details, such as the level of budget contribution, Schengen, the Euro, the commissioners, number of MEPs etc all would need to be agreed. There's no provision for arranging it any other way.

    Of course it is also true that, in practice, our EU friends are not going to do anything disruptive in terms of trade, although Spain is a complicating factor.

    It would be interesting if a Scottish departure triggered a formal Lisbon re-negotiation. A useful opportunity, which UKIPers would no doubt want to sabotage by ensuring there was a Labour government in place ready to get absolutely nothing in return as usual.
    Scotland would stay in the EU but get screwed on the conditions and a desperate Eck would have little choice but to agree, bar one or two bits of face saving.
    Scotland's Future is an anagram of 'Fraudulent Costs'.....

    ....Stunted Scrofula...
    .....and many many others.....

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Huhne is a total disgrace and the LD party should disown him..not to do so is to condone his lying , deceitful behaviour that led to a prison sentence..
  • Scotland would stay in the EU but get screwed on the conditions and a desperate Eck would have little choice but to agree, bar one or two bits of face saving.

    Precisely so. Their bargaining position would be extremely weak, but in practice no-one would want them to leave; it would just be too messy. So there would be horse-trading as usual. It's near-inconceivable that they'd actually be excluded, but the exact mechanism, timing and conditions would require negotiation.

    Clearly there are at least four very sticky points:

    1) Spain's position: they'd have to make Scotland sweat for internal reasons. They might insist on Scotland having some kind of associate membership for a period.

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    4) The budget and the rebate.

    5. Fishing.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.


    The most hilarious thing about the obsequious Cameroons and PB tories pontificating on how Salmond would be bound to fail at negotiations is that they have to pretend Cammie (the same Cammie who flounced out with his veto debacle) will somehow manage to negotiate Cast Iron Guarantees on all sort of things before his IN/OUT referendum, but they don't have a clue what they are.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    Possibly a slight exaggeration?
    I meant giving interviews, appearing on TV, radio, writing newspaper articles.
  • 5. Fishing.

    Yes, concesssions on that would surely be part of the price. Especially for getting Spain's consent, of course.
  • Ishmael_X said:

    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.

    saying pretty much the opposite to what you want it to say.
    I'm not sure BobaJob is quite the full shilling.....

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Scotland would stay in the EU but get screwed on the conditions and a desperate Eck would have little choice but to agree, bar one or two bits of face saving.

    Precisely so. Their bargaining position would be extremely weak, but in practice no-one would want them to leave; it would just be too messy. So there would be horse-trading as usual. It's near-inconceivable that they'd actually be excluded, but the exact mechanism, timing and conditions would require negotiation.

    Clearly there are at least four very sticky points:

    1) Spain's position: they'd have to make Scotland sweat for internal reasons. They might insist on Scotland having some kind of associate membership for a period.

    2) The Euro: Many EU states will not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Will probably be used as a bargaining chip

    4) The budget and the rebate.

    And we already have the set up of "good cop" - the Commission - and "bad cop" - Spain.

    They will lose the rebate automatically, I'd be a bit pessimistic on EU claims on anything to do with territorial waters - fishing, oil - where the EU has been pushing steadily it's right to decide and tax, Schengen they'll stay out but have to haggle it, Euro will need to be committed to and therefore Commission right to approve budget, banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector and opt outs on the social chapter would be hard to retain.
  • Mick_Pork said:

    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.

    Salmond would be bound to fail at negotiations
    No.

    We just say he would have to enter into them.

    Which is more than he (or you, or your useful idiots) seem willing to accept...

    How much fishing do you think you'll have to give up to buy off the Spanish?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
    Have you never once, in either your personal or professional life, done anything which you regard as being as bad as Huhne's offence? Not once?

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited November 2013
    Fake fop, can't be trusted.
    Conservatives could hold Lisbon Treaty referendum after ratification

    A Conservative government could hold a referendum on the European Union's Lisbon Treaty even if it has already been ratified, William Hague has said.

    The Shadow Foreign Secretary made the pledge as David Cameron promised to fight next year's European Parliament elections on a referendum pledge.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/3097376/Conservatives-could-hold-Lisbon-Treaty-referendum-after-ratification.html
    :)
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Mick_Pork said:

    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.


    The most hilarious thing about the obsequious Cameroons and PB tories pontificating on how Salmond would be bound to fail at negotiations is that they have to pretend Cammie (the same Cammie who flounced out with his veto debacle) will somehow manage to negotiate Cast Iron Guarantees on all sort of things before his IN/OUT referendum, but they don't have a clue what they are.
    Quite. It's laughable. As is the No campaign at the moment. Clueless.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Could someone explain why Huhne needs seven houses?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen). Personally, I'd happily sign us up to Schengen, and simultaneously remove us from the EU. But I appreciate my view is a minority one.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Huhne is a total disgrace and the LD party should disown him..not to do so is to condone his lying , deceitful behaviour that led to a prison sentence..

    He's done his time. Let the guy get on with his life.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen).
    Yes, in practice both of those are probably true as the final outcome, but they would still have to be formally agreed, and no doubt would be held back as 'concessions' to be offered during the negotiations in return for something else.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.

    You really should read these articles before pontificating....

    "But the significance of that disclosure was quickly undermined after it emerged that Salmond's aides had downloaded the letter from a nationalist website, Newsnet Scotland, and had not been officially sent that opinion by Brussels."
    Erm, that wasn't the premise of the article - which was about a judge's view on Scotland remaining in.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
    Spare us the hyperbole. The guy has done his time.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    Depends how the bank split goes. I could see RBS and BOS returning to their roots in a split but leaving Natwest and Lloyds behind. Who else will want them ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    Actually, thinking about it, we'd have to say "Scotland, you can be independent, but you have to take RBS with you. And you have to agree not to let Fred Godwin ever cross the border into rUK."
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rcs1000 said:

    RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too.

    All of the back end IT is in Edinburgh
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:



    What's stopping the Liberals cutting and running in the Autumn if they decide they have nothing left to lose? Might as well chance it on the off chance they get some sort of dividend for pulling the plug on the Coalition.

    That's easy to answer. The Lib Dems have been relying on a coalition government for decades. One they get power in one, they need to show that they are sane and serious partners in government. There will be a time to cut and run, but this autumn is far too early for that. Autumn 2014 at the earliest, IMHO, and more likely winter/spring 2015.

    Remarkably, the coalition has been working quite well in my opinion. Long term, this may be a great advertisement for a change in the electoral system, which will help the Lib Dems.

    Perhaps the AV referendum came a GE too early ...

    Then again, I would say that given my political leanings, and you might well say otherwise.
    I was referring to autumn 2014! I'm not expecting them to pull the plug by Sunday!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited November 2013

    rcs1000 said:

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen).
    Yes, in practice both of those are probably true as the final outcome, but they would still have to be formally agreed, and no doubt would be held back as 'concessions' to be offered during the negotiations in return for something else.
    And in forcing a commitment to the Euro at some future date, in the short term the EU will want to have a say over the Scottish budget on the grounds it's about getting ready for the eventual day.
  • rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    It's a bit more than that, isn't it? Standard Life, Aberdeen Asset Mgt, various other insurance companies, fund managers, pension providers, etc. According to this website financial services represent 7% of Scotland's GDP:

    http://www.sdi.co.uk/sectors/financial-services.aspx
  • tim said:

    @labourpress: Really disgraceful tweet from Tory MP @jameswhartonmp Compare this: https://t.co/WauvP7MycE And this: https://t.co/DT1TNdKk9J #sameoldtories

    Nice chap

    Blimey, all the usual suspects are there in force with their synthetic outrage.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Cast Iron EU certainty.
    BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 13 May

    PM @David_Cameron accuses Tories calling for UK to leave EU of "throwing in the towel" before negotiations begin http://bbc.in/17ksJVi
    I wonder if the fake fop will be so vocal before the EU elections?

    *chortle*
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    rcs1000 said:

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen).
    Yes, in practice both of those are probably true as the final outcome, but they would still have to be formally agreed, and no doubt would be held back as 'concessions' to be offered during the negotiations in return for something else.
    And in forcing a commitment to the Euro at some future date, in the short term the EU will want to have a say over the Scottish budget on the grounds it's about getting ready for the eventual day.
    Surely it will be in exactly the same position as Sweden. Really, I suspect the last thing that Germany wants (and with it the contributor nations such as Austria, Poland, the Netherlands...) is to end up in arguments with Scotland about its budget. I could be wrong, but until Scotland joins the Euro (as some future, undetermined point) then I can't imagine that the governor of the ECB or the Chancellor of Germany actually give a shit about the Scottish budget. What they care about is keeping their contraption alive, and complications around the edge (with countries that aren't even in the Eurozone) just won't be interesting to them.

    After all, the whole point about 'overseeing of national budgets' is that it is the quid pro quo of Germany agreeing to backstop others' national debts. While Scotland was part of the Sterling-zone that simply would not be an issue.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    It's a bit more than that, isn't it? Standard Life, Aberdeen Asset Mgt, various other insurance companies, fund managers, pension providers, etc. According to this website financial services represent 7% of Scotland's GDP:

    http://www.sdi.co.uk/sectors/financial-services.aspx

    rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    It's a bit more than that, isn't it? Standard Life, Aberdeen Asset Mgt, various other insurance companies, fund managers, pension providers, etc. According to this website financial services represent 7% of Scotland's GDP:

    http://www.sdi.co.uk/sectors/financial-services.aspx
    You're right, Standard Life is quite a big firm - I forgot about them. Aberdeen isn't that big, though.
  • rcs1000 said:

    You're right, Standard Life is quite a big firm - I forgot about them. Aberdeen isn't that big, though.

    According to this site, Scotland accounts for a quarter of the UK pension & life insurance industry:

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/06/9145/15
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited November 2013
    Great time for Cast Iron Cammie and Crosby to posture on EU immigration, wasn't it?
    UK Immigration Law ‏@BakerReidWay 7h

    Latest UK migration stats: increase in net migration from EU, decrease from non-EU countries, @Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10480223/Blow-for-David-Cameron-as-figures-show-net-migration-increase-during-last-year.html
    I'm sure Farage, the kippers and eurosceptic backbenchers won't notice.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen).
    Yes, in practice both of those are probably true as the final outcome, but they would still have to be formally agreed, and no doubt would be held back as 'concessions' to be offered during the negotiations in return for something else.
    And in forcing a commitment to the Euro at some future date, in the short term the EU will want to have a say over the Scottish budget on the grounds it's about getting ready for the eventual day.


    After all, the whole point about 'overseeing of national budgets' is that it is the quid pro quo of Germany agreeing to backstop others' national debts. While Scotland was part of the Sterling-zone that simply would not be an issue.
    But is it ? The point about Sweden is it's already in, and while the tide of the acquis communautaire can resisted to a point, for a new member that option is harder to exercise. From what I've seen of the newer entrants, they're having to sign up to the full package. As for the "problem" of the ECB, the Germans are control freaks and the Commission likes to acquire powers as and when it can. I doubt they'll pass up on the opportunity.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen).
    Yes, in practice both of those are probably true as the final outcome, but they would still have to be formally agreed, and no doubt would be held back as 'concessions' to be offered during the negotiations in return for something else.
    And in forcing a commitment to the Euro at some future date, in the short term the EU will want to have a say over the Scottish budget on the grounds it's about getting ready for the eventual day.
    Surely it will be in exactly the same position as Sweden. Really, I suspect the last thing that Germany wants (and with it the contributor nations such as Austria, Poland, the Netherlands...) is to end up in arguments with Scotland about its budget. I could be wrong, but until Scotland joins the Euro (as some future, undetermined point) then I can't imagine that the governor of the ECB or the Chancellor of Germany actually give a shit about the Scottish budget. What they care about is keeping their contraption alive, and complications around the edge (with countries that aren't even in the Eurozone) just won't be interesting to them.

    After all, the whole point about 'overseeing of national budgets' is that it is the quid pro quo of Germany agreeing to backstop others' national debts. While Scotland was part of the Sterling-zone that simply would not be an issue.
    Indeed. There's no incentive for them to kick the Scots out so why would they? Pointless sabre rattling that fools no one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Bobajob said:


    Indeed. There's no incentive for them to kick the Scots out so why would they? Pointless sabre rattling that fools no one.

    The Scots would be voting to leave. Nobody is kicking them out.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Bobajob said:

    ndeed. There's no incentive for them to kick the Scots out so why would they? Pointless sabre rattling that fools no one.

    You forget those PB tories doing the cheering on the pointless sabre rattling are most of the same gullible ones who believe Cammie's Cast Iron guarantees without question but have no idea what specific powers Cameron is supposed to renegotiate before the IN/OUT referendum.

  • Scotland could get EU membership on substantially similar terms to those offered to the current UK if and only if it got the vigorous support of rUK.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    Actually, the last thing the Eurozone wants is a reluctant additional member. I suspect they'd agree to some face saving wording about Scotland joining "when the time was right".

    Regarding Schengen, presumably Scotland would be exactly the same as Ireland and stay out of it, because it would require sealing the border with the UK (as otherwise we would effectively be joining Schengen).
    Yes, in practice both of those are probably true as the final outcome, but they would still have to be formally agreed, and no doubt would be held back as 'concessions' to be offered during the negotiations in return for something else.
    And in forcing a commitment to the Euro at some future date, in the short term the EU will want to have a say over the Scottish budget on the grounds it's about getting ready for the eventual day.


    After all, the whole point about 'overseeing of national budgets' is that it is the quid pro quo of Germany agreeing to backstop others' national debts. While Scotland was part of the Sterling-zone that simply would not be an issue.
    But is it ? The point about Sweden is it's already in, and while the tide of the acquis communautaire can resisted to a point, for a new member that option is harder to exercise. From what I've seen of the newer entrants, they're having to sign up to the full package. As for the "problem" of the ECB, the Germans are control freaks and the Commission likes to acquire powers as and when it can. I doubt they'll pass up on the opportunity.
    It is now mandatory. I think Scotland's case will be that it is not a "new" country. Simply a broken part of a country that is already in.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    antifrank said:

    Scotland could get EU membership on substantially similar terms to those offered to the current UK if and only if it got the vigorous support of rUK.

    But why should it ? With Salmond promising a tax war, it's better to nobble the competition upfront. It's just business.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:


    Indeed. There's no incentive for them to kick the Scots out so why would they? Pointless sabre rattling that fools no one.

    The Scots would be voting to leave. Nobody is kicking them out.
    An absurd leap of logic. Is Scotland in the EU currently? Yes it is, as a constituent nation of the UK.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    tim said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Great time for Cast Iron Cammie and Crosby to posture on EU immigration, wasn't it?

    UK Immigration Law ‏@BakerReidWay 7h

    Latest UK migration stats: increase in net migration from EU, decrease from non-EU countries, @Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10480223/Blow-for-David-Cameron-as-figures-show-net-migration-increase-during-last-year.html
    I'm sure Farage, the kippers and eurosceptic backbenchers won't notice.

    Can't understand why Dave isn't shouting the good news from the rooftops regarding hardworking people coming here to help Britain win the global race
    My PB Tory chums won't join me in a toast, it's weird

    Oh dear. Somehow Farage noticed.
    David Jones ‏@DavidJo52951945 2h

    Farage fumes as net migration increases yet again to double government target http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/11/28/farage-fumes-as-net-migrationincreases … Only UKIP will save the UK
    I'm sure he won't put that sort of thing on leaflets and campaign on it for the coming EU elections.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Bjob .. Huhne has done his time ,which he richly deserved.. but are the LD's happy for this man to be their public face, their spokesperson.. There comes a time when it is better to just fade away when you have displayed total contempt for the law..most ex cons seem to do that.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    antifrank said:

    Scotland could get EU membership on substantially similar terms to those offered to the current UK if and only if it got the vigorous support of rUK.

    That would be a necessary but insufficient condition.

    If the UK said to the other 27 Scotland should get our rebate, 27 of them would tell them where to go
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Bobajob said:

    Is Scotland in the EU currently?

    No, it isn't.

    No list of EU members shows Scotland as a member.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:

    Is Scotland in the EU currently?

    No, it isn't.

    No list of EU members shows Scotland as a member.
    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Bobajob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:


    Indeed. There's no incentive for them to kick the Scots out so why would they? Pointless sabre rattling that fools no one.

    The Scots would be voting to leave. Nobody is kicking them out.
    An absurd leap of logic. Is Scotland in the EU currently? Yes it is, as a constituent nation of the UK.

    You're wasting your time you know. Scottish tory surgers are not known for their logic.
    Even Alex Massie knows how pointless the sabre rattling is.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/11/scotland-and-the-eu-mariano-rajoy-should-just-jog-on/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Bobajob said:


    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.

    You think Brussels is a country?

    Wow!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    PPP Pennsylvania 2016

    •Chris Christie (R) 48%
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  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Bobajob said:

    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
    Spare us the hyperbole. The guy has done his time.
    It's how societies work. Bad behaviour at the top has a big impact.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited November 2013
    Yet Another Resounding Failure for Labour's Policy In Wales

    Many pupils in Wales have no idea how to take a maths test, a highly critical report has found.

    From May next year, children will sit numerical reasoning tests in an effort to improve numeracy skills.

    But the results of pre-testing revealed learners did not understand basic concepts or check their work, copied from each other, gave ridiculous answers or left most questions blank......

    The report, which examined the results from sample tests taken in May 2013 by more than 200 children in each school year between 2 and 9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-25139847

    This is yet another example of the result of Labour's dumbing down of education standards and being happy for children to be average of a bad average for political purposes. What a miserable future they have condemned these children to have - unemployed as they will be unemployable - whilst better educated immigrants swoop up the available jobs. The result of a total lack of aspiration for the people of Wales.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    Positive news for London — 4 homicides in November so far, pretty good for a city with a population of 8.3 million:

    http://www.murdermap.co.uk/Investigate.asp
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Benedict Brogan ‏@benedictbrogan 7m
    Lots of pushback against Hungarian eurocrat calling UK 'nasty'. Then you consider gruesome fate of Bijan Ebrahmi http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10481077/Vigilante-murder-Bijan-Ebrahimi-films-killer-confronting-him.html

    Imagine if that had been a Brit in a foreign country where govt politicians are stirring up anti immigrant feeling.

    That's pretty obnoxious, linking it to immigration fears.

    As I understood it, the case was entirely related to a false accusation of paedophillia. Appalling, but not to do with immigration.
    Take it up with Brogan

    "Mr Ebrahimi's sister, Manizhah Moores said her brother, an Iranian national, had suffered racial abuse while living in Bristol and his previous home had been the subject of an arson attack."

    Disability hate crime has risen since Bible IDS started telling lots of lies too, who knows whether the two are linked.
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Benedict Brogan ‏@benedictbrogan 7m
    Lots of pushback against Hungarian eurocrat calling UK 'nasty'. Then you consider gruesome fate of Bijan Ebrahmi http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10481077/Vigilante-murder-Bijan-Ebrahimi-films-killer-confronting-him.html

    Imagine if that had been a Brit in a foreign country where govt politicians are stirring up anti immigrant feeling.

    That's pretty obnoxious, linking it to immigration fears.

    As I understood it, the case was entirely related to a false accusation of paedophillia. Appalling, but not to do with immigration.
    Take it up with Brogan

    "Mr Ebrahimi's sister, Manizhah Moores said her brother, an Iranian national, had suffered racial abuse while living in Bristol and his previous home had been the subject of an arson attack."

    Disability hate crime has risen since Bible IDS started telling lots of lies too, who knows whether the two are linked.
    The article doesn't posit racial abuse as a causi belli.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Ishmael_X said:

    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
    Have you never once, in either your personal or professional life, done anything which you regard as being as bad as Huhne's offence? Not once?

    I've done much worse and a lot more times than once.

    However that doesn't change the *practical* truth that misbehaviour among the political class/celebs etc has a much wider impact than misbehaviour elsewhere and needs to be treated differently.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Bobajob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:

    Is Scotland in the EU currently?

    No, it isn't.

    No list of EU members shows Scotland as a member.
    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.
    My garden is in the EU. It doesn't have fishing rights off Ireland though.

  • Does tim write for the Mirror - on this maths, how many millions did New Labour's 13 years hook?

    Labour Press Team‏@labourpress26s
    David Cameron's delay on plain cigarette packaging puts 150,000 kids at risk of addiction via @DailyMirror http://mirr.im/Ijlxzb
  • Is it Falkirk QT tonight?

  • Financier said:

    Yet Another Resounding Failure for Labour's Policy In Wales

    Many pupils in Wales have no idea how to take a maths test, a highly critical report has found.

    From May next year, children will sit numerical reasoning tests in an effort to improve numeracy skills.

    But the results of pre-testing revealed learners did not understand basic concepts or check their work, copied from each other, gave ridiculous answers or left most questions blank......

    The report, which examined the results from sample tests taken in May 2013 by more than 200 children in each school year between 2 and 9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-25139847

    This is yet another example of the result of Labour's dumbing down of education standards and being happy for children to be average of a bad average for political purposes. What a miserable future they have condemned these children to have - unemployed as they will be unemployable - whilst better educated immigrants swoop up the available jobs. The result of a total lack of aspiration for the people of Wales.

    Let's hope the unlucky little blighters don't fall ill and need the Welsh NHS
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scotland would stay in the EU but get screwed on the conditions and a desperate Eck would have little choice but to agree, bar one or two bits of face saving.

    Precisely so. Their bargaining position would be extremely weak, but in practice no-one would want them to leave; it would just be too messy. So there would be horse-trading as usual. It's near-inconceivable that they'd actually be excluded, but the exact mechanism, timing and conditions would require negotiation.

    Clearly there are at least four very sticky points:

    1) Spain's position: they'd have to make Scotland sweat for internal reasons. They might insist on Scotland having some kind of associate membership for a period.

    2) The Euro: Many EU states would not be at all happy at Scotland being able to escape that yoke

    3) Schengen: Would probably be used as a bargaining chip

    4) The budget and the rebate.

    Don't see how Scotland could sign up to Schengen without putting border controls in place between rUK and Scotland though.
  • Alex Massie is ill-informed. Salmond has been sticking his snout in Spain's business and stirring the mierda for many a year ;
    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/12/15170722
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mick_Pork said:

    Bobajob said:

    Independent Scotland should stay in EU, says judicial expert

    Former EU judge boosts Alex Salmond's case by saying ejecting Scotland from union would cause unacceptable damage

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/independent-scotland-eu-judicial-expert-alex-salmond?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Surprise surprise. As forecast by many of the less screwy on here. The entire idea it would be kicked out was always risible. No needs to find some new tunes. The whatabouteey has all the debating elegance of a PB Tory on a wet Monday in Falkirk.


    The most hilarious thing about the obsequious Cameroons and PB tories pontificating on how Salmond would be bound to fail at negotiations is that they have to pretend Cammie (the same Cammie who flounced out with his veto debacle) will somehow manage to negotiate Cast Iron Guarantees on all sort of things before his IN/OUT referendum, but they don't have a clue what they are.
    The difference is that Cameron is threatening (at least in theory) to leave, which the EU doesn't want. Scotland is petitioning to join which the EU can pretend to be indifferent to.

    That changes the negotiation dynamic.
  • Is it Falkirk QT tonight?

    Shh! Total non story! Johan Lamont is appearing. Not.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Is it Falkirk QT tonight?

    Shh! Total non story! Johan Lamont is appearing. Not.

    It's like a wet dream for the PB Tories.
    Loved anothernick's 15 Things FPT. Classic stuff.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited November 2013
    tim said:

    Sad thing is its a good news story for the govt if the imbecilic Cameron hadn't made net migration his target.
    If he'd used immigration as a marker its down (sadly because most of the drop is from overseas students, which obviously damages the economy, but lets let that pass for a moment) and he could tout that figure while claiming that workers are coming here due to economic competence.
    But he screwed the whole thing up by choosing a really,really dumb measure.

    Just wait till the height of the EU election campaign and afterwards. Then you'll see some stupendously dumb posturing and targets forced on Cameron by fearful eurosceptic tories.
    If the posturing looks laughable now you ain't seen nothing yet.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Does tim write for the Mirror - on this maths, how many millions did New Labour's 13 years hook?

    Labour Press Team‏@labourpress26s
    David Cameron's delay on plain cigarette packaging puts 150,000 kids at risk of addiction via @DailyMirror http://mirr.im/Ijlxzb

    That was then and this is now.
  • Bobajob said:

    Huhne is a total disgrace and the LD party should disown him..not to do so is to condone his lying , deceitful behaviour that led to a prison sentence..

    He's done his time. Let the guy get on with his life.
    And keep out of ours
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tim said:

    @labourpress: Really disgraceful tweet from Tory MP @jameswhartonmp Compare this: https://t.co/WauvP7MycE And this: https://t.co/DT1TNdKk9J #sameoldtories

    Nice chap

    Blimey, all the usual suspects are there in force with their synthetic outrage.
    Why is it "really disgraceful"?

    He misrepresented his opponent by selective editing, but that's no more than loads of politicians have been doing since the year dot.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    GeoffM said:

    Bobajob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:

    Is Scotland in the EU currently?

    No, it isn't.

    No list of EU members shows Scotland as a member.
    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.
    My garden is in the EU. It doesn't have fishing rights off Ireland though.

    Does the border really run thro
    MrJones said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
    Have you never once, in either your personal or professional life, done anything which you regard as being as bad as Huhne's offence? Not once?

    I've done much worse and a lot more times than once.

    However that doesn't change the *practical* truth that misbehaviour among the political class/celebs etc has a much wider impact than misbehaviour elsewhere and needs to be treated differently.
    Disagree. More human beings in politics, treated like everyone else, would be beneficial.
  • So what's the response been of the PB lefties to Tom Harris getting in touch with his inner Enoch?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    It's a bit more than that, isn't it? Standard Life, Aberdeen Asset Mgt, various other insurance companies, fund managers, pension providers, etc. According to this website financial services represent 7% of Scotland's GDP:

    http://www.sdi.co.uk/sectors/financial-services.aspx

    rcs1000 said:

    banking supervision will be a risk for Edinburgh's financial sector

    Edinburgh has Scottish Widows, and Baillie Gifford - that's not so much a financial sector as a large solicitor's offices. RBS employs about five times as many people in London as Edinburgh and the treasury function is here too. I can't see how RBS could avoid becoming a UK company (especially given it will still be owned by the rUK state).
    It's a bit more than that, isn't it? Standard Life, Aberdeen Asset Mgt, various other insurance companies, fund managers, pension providers, etc. According to this website financial services represent 7% of Scotland's GDP:

    http://www.sdi.co.uk/sectors/financial-services.aspx
    You're right, Standard Life is quite a big firm - I forgot about them. Aberdeen isn't that big, though.
    They'll be much bigger when they close on Widows.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:


    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.

    You think Brussels is a country?

    Wow!
    No. Yet again you miss my point. Scotland is in the EU. Brussels is in the EU. Neither are on the list of member states, but nevertheless they are in the EU. Quite simple.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Bobajob said:

    GeoffM said:

    Bobajob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:

    Is Scotland in the EU currently?

    No, it isn't.

    No list of EU members shows Scotland as a member.
    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.
    My garden is in the EU. It doesn't have fishing rights off Ireland though.

    Does the border really run thro
    MrJones said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    And as the fish rots from the head the behavior of the political class/celebs etc effects the behaviour of the whole society.
    Have you never once, in either your personal or professional life, done anything which you regard as being as bad as Huhne's offence? Not once?

    I've done much worse and a lot more times than once.

    However that doesn't change the *practical* truth that misbehaviour among the political class/celebs etc has a much wider impact than misbehaviour elsewhere and needs to be treated differently.
    Disagree. More human beings in politics, treated like everyone else, would be beneficial.
    People will operate the same way whether you agree or not. It's called elite emulation.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Bobajob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:


    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.

    You think Brussels is a country?

    Wow!
    No. Yet again you miss my point. Scotland is in the EU. Brussels is in the EU. Neither are on the list of member states, but nevertheless they are in the EU. Quite simple.
    ...thus giving us the factually correct but largely pointless answer to the pub quiz question: What do Scotland, Brussels and my dead cat have in common?

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    AndyJS said:

    Until about 10 years ago someone convicted of a crime like Huhne or Pryce would have been too embarrassed to appear in public for a long time.

    Thats what a long period of a labour govenment does to standards.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    GeoffM said:

    Bobajob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Bobajob said:


    Again, an absurd piece of sophistry unless you believe Brussels is not in the EU.

    You think Brussels is a country?

    Wow!
    No. Yet again you miss my point. Scotland is in the EU. Brussels is in the EU. Neither are on the list of member states, but nevertheless they are in the EU. Quite simple.
    ...thus giving us the factually correct but largely pointless answer to the pub quiz question: What do Scotland, Brussels and my dead cat have in common?

    LOL
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:



    ...thus giving us the factually correct but largely pointless answer to the pub quiz question: What do Scotland, Brussels and my dead cat have in common?

    My greenhouse just declared unilateral independence, and claims a share of CAP "cos it's in the EU" and some bloke on the Internet said it was OK...
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited November 2013
    Let everyone be absolutely clear on one thing..No one but the smoker is responsible for them taking up smoking..It is ridiculous and idiotic to blame a Political Party of any hue for someone to start smoking.. Billions have been spent over many years informing people of the dangers.. If an individual chooses to smoke then it is their choice..only an idiot would state otherwise..
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    The most important question around the issue of Scotland and the EU is the number of seats Scotland and rUK would get in the European Parliament.

    Scotland would go up to around 13 seats, based on other similar sized countries. But the rUK would only go down about 8 seats compared to the UK currently. This is because the allocation of seats is weighted to smaller countries. Thus Scotland plus rUK would have around 5 more seats as UK now.

    The problem comes that the number of MEPs is fixed at 751, so some other EU countries will have to lose MEPs in 2019 just because Scotland split up from the UK.

    This of course assumes Scotland is a member of the EU in 2019.
  • New Thread
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:



    What's stopping the Liberals cutting and running in the Autumn if they decide they have nothing left to lose? Might as well chance it on the off chance they get some sort of dividend for pulling the plug on the Coalition.

    That's easy to answer. The Lib Dems have been relying on a coalition government for decades. One they get power in one, they need to show that they are sane and serious partners in government. There will be a time to cut and run, but this autumn is far too early for that. Autumn 2014 at the earliest, IMHO, and more likely winter/spring 2015.

    Remarkably, the coalition has been working quite well in my opinion. Long term, this may be a great advertisement for a change in the electoral system, which will help the Lib Dems.

    Perhaps the AV referendum came a GE too early ...

    Then again, I would say that given my political leanings, and you might well say otherwise.
    I was referring to autumn 2014! I'm not expecting them to pull the plug by Sunday!
    Ahem, yes. ;-)

    Astrononomically (i.e. non-meteorologically), winter starts on December 21st, so they still have over three weeks.

    Although I should have noticed that we are actually in the autumn. Perhaps the leaves littering my garden were a sign ...

    Sorry. The rest of my post still stands. ;-)
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Mick_Pork said:

    tim said:

    Sad thing is its a good news story for the govt if the imbecilic Cameron hadn't made net migration his target.
    If he'd used immigration as a marker its down (sadly because most of the drop is from overseas students, which obviously damages the economy, but lets let that pass for a moment) and he could tout that figure while claiming that workers are coming here due to economic competence.
    But he screwed the whole thing up by choosing a really,really dumb measure.

    Just wait till the height of the EU election campaign and afterwards. Then you'll see some stupendously dumb posturing and targets forced on Cameron by fearful eurosceptic tories.
    If the posturing looks laughable now you ain't seen nothing yet.

    It's not so much about immigration as the increase (and rate of increase) in population overwhelming public services. In that sense net migration is a useful measure.

  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    I am not sure that following anything Chris Huhne says is wise after all that has happened.
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