If Scots decide to recant their British citizenship then they would automatically lose EU citizenship unless and until Scotland is a member nation in its own right.
Yes there is. "... the treaties no longer apply to that state" [Scotland]. It is the Maastricht Treaty that grants EU Citizenship and as such with it no longer applying it is gone.
Do you claim that British citizens who give up British citizenship to become American citizens retain their EU citizenship.
So just to clarify, Barroso mentioning 'the treaties' equates to an absolute statement of fact that Scottish citizens after a Yes vote would have EU citizenship instantly withdrawn from 19/09/14?
Thinner than Twiggy on a diet.
No. That is absurd because British Citizenship wouldn't be instantly withdrawn from 19/09/14 would it? It would be withdrawn only if any when British Citizenship is withdrawn unless and until Scottish membership is granted. Now the SNP hopes that will be sorted in the transition period and if it is then it will be seemless.
However if it is not the law is clear. I repeat: If a British citizen recants their citizenship of Britain to join a non-EU member nation like eg America is their EU citizenship kept? Have you got an answer?
If Scots decide to recant their British citizenship then they would automatically lose EU citizenship unless and until Scotland is a member nation in its own right.
Yes there is. "... the treaties no longer apply to that state" [Scotland]. It is the Maastricht Treaty that grants EU Citizenship and as such with it no longer applying it is gone.
Do you claim that British citizens who give up British citizenship to become American citizens retain their EU citizenship.
So just to clarify, Barroso mentioning 'the treaties' equates to an absolute statement of fact that Scottish citizens after a Yes vote would have EU citizenship instantly withdrawn from 19/09/14?
You are conflating 'Scottish Citizens' with 'The Scottish State' - it is entirely possible for the former to retain their status (as 'British citizens' ) while the latter (a new state) loses it.
I'm not the one saying that Scottish EU citizens would have their citizenships rescinded though.
I wonder what would happen if the result were extremely close, down to a few thousand votes either side.
Absolute nightmare scenario for all concerned?
The losers would cry foul and demand a new referendum. They will probably do that anyway, even if the result is not close. After all, the 1975 EU referendum produced a 2-1 majority for staying in, but the losers have been demanding a rerun ever since.
After Scottish independence the English will, after a period of trauma, need to move on. Hard to do that while still flying their neighbour's colours. It would be like Denmark still flying the cross of the Kalmar Union and pretending that they still ruled Norway, Iceland, Sweden and Finland.
Eventually, the kings of England stopped pretending that they were also kings of France, and the fleur de lys disappeared from their arms.
The Union Flag has had the diagonal cross for Ireland for nearly a century since the Republic became independent. Furthermore it is in the top-left corner of many independent nations like Australia and New Zealand.
Flags represent history as much as present facts and that will not change with the departure of a nation that joined with England in the Act of Union nearly a century after the creation of the Union Flag.
You mean the creation of the Union Flags, plural. There were originally two designs: a Scottish version and an English version. Only the English one is still in use.
To be fair originally we were two nations. Now if the Scots were to leave the Union then why would the English pre-Union flag (as subsequently updated adding and keeping Ireland) not be able to be used as it has been for approximately 400 of the 300 years we've been in a Union?
The whiite paper also wants English students to continue to pay fees at Scottish Unis whilst Germans and French study free.
Justification ?
If Scotland becomes independent then English students would, as a matter of EU law, be in exactly the same position as French students and therefore would need to be treated equally. So either all would pay fees or none would.
It is only the fact that Scotland is part of the UK which permits the Scots to charge English students but not other EU students.
I'm generally agnostic about the Scottish question. On balance I tend to favour countries being in charge of their own destinies and if the Scots want to do this good luck to them. I'm sure they can do well.
But when I read some of the nonsense - such as this and the BoE stuff - I find the somewhat childish anti-English aspect of it tiresome - as, in its own way, is the "you'll be poor and friendless" No campaign - and begin to feel that the rest of the UK would be better off without Scotland, not for financial reasons, but just because when two countries are drifting apart, better to get on with it rather than have this nah-nah style of politics.
Scotland wouldn't be in the EU until it negotiated entry, so EU law may not apply.
Fair point. It does rather highlight the anti-Englishness of it all, though. It looks petty and petulant as if the only point of being independent is being nasty to the English. I'm not sure I'd want to be in a union with people who behave like that, even if they do have all the oil etc.
If that's how the Scots really feel, better they go their own way as soon as possible - and be really independent i.e. with their own currency, central bank and the rest of it. How can a self-respecting nation not want proper independence?
If Scotland becomes independent then English students would, as a matter of EU law, be in exactly the same position as French students and therefore would need to be treated equally. So either all would pay fees or none would.
It is only the fact that Scotland is part of the UK which permits the Scots to charge English students but not other EU students.
I'm generally agnostic about the Scottish question. On balance I tend to favour countries being in charge of their own destinies and if the Scots want to do this good luck to them. I'm sure they can do well.
But when I read some of the nonsense - such as this and the BoE stuff - I find the somewhat childish anti-English aspect of it tiresome - as, in its own way, is the "you'll be poor and friendless" No campaign - and begin to feel that the rest of the UK would be better off without Scotland, not for financial reasons, but just because when two countries are drifting apart, better to get on with it rather than have this nah-nah style of politics.
I'm with you on that as well, I just think it does a disservice to the 300 or so successful years that the Union has had.
I think cooler heads will reign in Scotland and they will vote to stay in the Union, but I don't know where they go from there. The relationship will have changed irrevocably after the vote, but they will have voted to stay in the Union. I think Barnett has to be ended and Scotland should get more of their own budget setting powers as long as they stick to the spending envelope set out by the Westminster government of the day. Not sure how such a system would work in practice though as it could lead to wildly different welfare and benefit systems.
We have, however, crossed the Rubicon. There is no going back to how it is today and definitely no going back to how the relationship was pre-devolution.
I think the "in" campaign needs to come up with an answer to that question rather than just go for the type of politics you mention. There is uncertainty whatever happens after the vote, but Salmond's document is a joke and the "in" side should now set out a realistic path forwards for the union and be the voice of reason, not just like a spiteful ex telling you that it will never be the same without him/her.
This is a rough translation of a report published today on the website of La Vanguardia, which is Catalonia's leading newspaper:
The European Commission avoided speaking about the Scottish PM Alex Salmond's independence plans this Tuesday, insisting that they were "an internal matter for the UK", but it repeated that Scotland would have to request membership of the EU if it became independent. "The Treaty has articles that are clear about the necessity for a new third country to request membership," Olivier Bailly, the spokesman for the Commisison Executive stated. "Our well-known position has not changed," he pointed out. "We do not have any comment to make because this news does not relate to the institutions of the EU. It is an internal matter for the UK," the spokesman stated on being asked whether he agreed with the claim by Salmond that Scotland would continue as an EU member after independence. "Whatever process takes place that has the effect of a region of a member state leaving that member state will have implications under the Treaty that we will only specifically comment on once we receive a detailed legal scenario from a member state. The rest is speculation," Bailly said. According to the Commission interpretation that has been repeated on previous occasions, for Scotland as well as Catalonia, if a region of a member state becomes independent it is automatically excluded from the EU and all treaties would cease to apply there. If it wished to re-enter it would have to request membership, something that would then have to be unanimously ratified by all member states.
You can see the original here (last few paragraphs):
I hope the Scots don't vote to leave the Union, but if they do then I wish them luck.
However the moment they leave they should have no say whatsoever in what goes on I the remaining country. None of this 'oh but we'll keep the bits that suit us' lark. The boot is entirely on the other foot. They can keep the bits that it suits us to let them keep. If they want to be reigned over by HMQ then they can start paying for the privilege. If we can find some sufficiently sharp lawyers then perhaps we should ask for ongoing fees for the usage of the English language.
More seriously though there isn't any space for an independent Scotland in the decision making of the Bank of England, the programming of the BBC, nor the diplomatic high-table. Independence guarantees marginalisation and obscurity, whereas tied to the rest of the UK they have at least a fighting chance that such a fate can be avoided.
I note below, courtesy of 'state_go_away'
"Eventually, the kings of England stopped pretending that they were also kings of France, and the fleur de lys disappeared from their arms. "
Still early days on that!
A little into WW2 Churchill proposed a Union with France. If that had been accepted then I wonder where we might be in relation to that expanded union.
China and the US squaring up militarily. What's the worst that could happen?
Ah. Right.
I've always thought a war between China and the USA would begin when North Korea invaded South Korea, the American and South Korean forces would eventually win, and the Chinese wouldn't like it with a unified Korea with American troops on their border.
Mr. Omnium, actually, Scotland may need to pay if they want HM to remain as active in Scotland as she is. If she continues to spend a few months in Balmoral[sp] then obviously those costs will need covering. I'm uncertain what land of the crown is in Scotland, but if there's no Civil List (from Scotland) then they, and their income, would revert to the crown.
I find it slightly ironic that the unionists are using many of the same arguments as the pro-EU lot despite a large proportion of them being in favour of leaving the EU and the independence side are using almost verbatim arguments as UKIP and anti-EU folk despite being very pro-EU.
Not only is he going to prison for a long time, he is going to be in protective solitary confinement for most of that time. He wouldn't survive a year in a Cat A prison with a guilty plea on a charge like that.
There's going to be a lot more coming out about this. He seems to have lived his life out on social media, and twitter has been full of lurid details and links to his accomplices and cronies for a couple of years. My son was a big Prophets fan, and pointed me in the right direction about him long ago.
No. That is absurd because British Citizenship wouldn't be instantly withdrawn from 19/09/14 would it? It would be withdrawn only if any when British Citizenship is withdrawn unless and until Scottish membership is granted. Now the SNP hopes that will be sorted in the transition period and if it is then it will be seemless.
However if it is not the law is clear. I repeat: If a British citizen recants their citizenship of Britain to join a non-EU member nation like eg America is their EU citizenship kept? Have you got an answer?
An answer to what? Negotiations for Scotland to have its EU membership confirmed are likely to be a lot more 'seemless' than rUK ones. Are you envisioning a period where Scotland is independent of the UK but still in limbo re. the EU?
In addition I think it extremely unlikely that dual citizenship will not be on offer to citizens of an independent Scotland.
We argued about Arsenal and Spurs success/spending/wages a while ago, here is quite an interesting article about Arsenals spending (transfers & wages) in the Wenger years.
Not only is he going to prison for a long time, he is going to be in protective solitary confinement for most of that time. He wouldn't survive a year in a Cat A prison with a guilty plea on a charge like that.
Call me naive, I have never really thought about the anatomy of such a young child to be honest, but surely it is nigh on impossible for a grown man to do what he attempted to do
This Scottish independence talk is giving me a headache - it's a shame the mountain of complex and irritating things that would need handling in the event of a Yes vote has no chance of putting any independence supporter off, it would make No's job a lot easier.
The details of the case involving Ian Watkins are even more horrific than they sound on a short description. Those with a very strong stomach can check out @rupertevelyn's timeline on twitter, but I really don't recommend it if you don't want to be consumed with rage. Astonishingly, he claims that he has heavily edited the details.
Not only is he going to prison for a long time, he is going to be in protective solitary confinement for most of that time. He wouldn't survive a year in a Cat A prison with a guilty plea on a charge like that.
I hope the coppers "forget" to keep him safe and justice is served properly on this vile scumbag. Prison time does not seem like a punishment equal to this crime. Daily floggings to within an inch of his life do, however. I'm not usually one for bloodlust, but I will make an exception in this case.
"Saatchi accused Nigella Lawson of drug-taking, court hears
Charles Saatchi accused his ex-wife Nigella Lawson and her daughter of being "so off your heads on drugs" that she allowed staff to spend "whatever they liked", a court has heard."
And Cameron/Osborne used the same arguments about a delayed referendum killing investment just before they announced that their own EU referendum would be over four years off at least.
Neither argument holds water though. Unless the Treasury/BoE pulls the rug from under the SNP with a whitepaper that 100% rules out a "Sterling zone" for an independent Scotland nothing really changes.
China and the US squaring up militarily. What's the worst that could happen?
Ah. Right.
Go, China. Stick it to the Yanks. What F*cking right do the Americans have to fly a B52 over "the South China Sea" to prove it is, er, what, actually the "Westernmost American Lake"?
American hegemony is over. The question is whether they accept it with good grace, like the Brits, or go down fighting like most everyone else.
I don't see why they should choose the latter course. America will remain a superpower for the foreseeable future, just not the ONLY one, nor, necessarily, the dominant one. This is hardly a humiliation.
Also China owns America's debt, wholesale. The Americans are like a guy with a huge overdraft chucking a petrol bomb through the window of his bank manager. Interesting move.
I presume one reason the americans are having more difficulty coming to terms with their eventually losing sole superpower status than we did with losing our superpower status (and no-one spin that nonsense that we still think we are one; we do not, and acting like a merely great power, which we still are for now, is not the same thing at all), not that we accepted it entirely gracefully, is because they have not been mortally wounded through massive world wars to signal the clear limits of their power like we did. Even if a decade and more in Afghanistan with, at best, moderate gains and many failures, would seem to demonstrate that sort of limitation, not to mention the rise of China.
Cameron welcomes British business call to stay in EU
London (AFP) - British Prime Minister David Cameron on Monday welcomed a call from the nation's business leaders for Britain to remain in the European Union, ahead of a referendum in 2017.
Gove and Hammond would say No to Europe... and seven Cabinet colleagues including Duncan Smith privately agree
Education Secretary said he would vote to exit Europe if there was a referendum held tomorrow But Michael Gove said he would abstain from this week's key vote Eurosceptics want David Cameron's pledge for EU referendum put into law Prime Minister has promised referendum in 2017 - if Tories win election Downing Street expects Cabinet members to abstain if vote goes ahead Lib Dems and Labour also show split over referendum issue
We argued about Arsenal and Spurs success/spending/wages a while ago, here is quite an interesting article about Arsenals spending (transfers & wages) in the Wenger years.
" I hope the coppers "forget" to keep him safe and justice is served properly on this vile scumbag. Prison time does not seem like a punishment equal to this crime. Daily floggings to within an inch of his life do, however. I'm not usually one for bloodlust, but I will make an exception in this case."
You Tories are all nutters. Time you accepted it gracefully. You positively queue up to outdo each other in the way you would like to physically abuse some unfortunate miscreant. Socrates was the worst but most of the rest of you are just as loopy.
One of the best examples of China's growing supremacy over the USA is the state of their airports. Chinese airports are like something out of the distant future, especially Shanghai, whereas at New York you're kept waiting for an hour if you happen to arrive at Sunday lunchtime like I was earlier this year; there was one person on immigration dealing with hundreds of people from three newly-arrived flights.
Mr. Roger, I'm not looking into the story in detail, but "unfortunate miscreant" seems like a singularly inaccurate way to describe the moral standing of the individual in question.
Not only is he going to prison for a long time, he is going to be in protective solitary confinement for most of that time. He wouldn't survive a year in a Cat A prison with a guilty plea on a charge like that.
I hope the coppers "forget" to keep him safe and justice is served properly on this vile scumbag. Prison time does not seem like a punishment equal to this crime. Daily floggings to within an inch of his life do, however. I'm not usually one for bloodlust, but I will make an exception in this case.
I'm not one for letting "justice" be carried out by other prisoners. We have the laws and punishments that are available to us, and have to be satisfied with them. Other criminals shouldn't be involved in that punishment, in my opinion.
woger.. The only nutter in this case is the would be rapist..He wanted to have sex with a baby,,in your world it would appear he is just an unfortunate lad, who just happened to get nicked. I wonder if you would be so liberal if it had been your daughter he tried to have full sex with.. when she was a baby,,
One of the best examples of China's growing supremacy over the USA is the state of their airports. Chinese airports are like something out of the distant future, especially Shanghai, whereas at New York you're kept waiting for an hour if you happen to arrive at Sunday lunchtime like I was earlier this year; there was one person on immigration dealing with hundreds of people from three newly-arrived flights.
Agree it's a great airport, and Shanghai now has 72-hour visa-free stopover if you go there on the way to somewhere else, which beats our ridiculous bureaucratic visa system. Chinese air traffic control is a bit rubbish though - delays in landing and takeoff are routine and I ran into several myself during 4 visits. I was told (but have forgotten) the reason - a technical one relating to how they've set it up.
If you want to see Israel in its chilling naked glory get a copy of the Oscar nominated film "Gatekeepers". As chilling an expose on real evil as any interview with ex Nazis.
It takes the format of interviews with the eight surviving heads of Shin Bet explaining why they did what they did which was just obeying orders.
If you want to see Israel in its chilling naked glory get a copy of the Oscar nominated film "Gatekeepers". As chilling an expose on real evil as any interview with ex Nazis.
It takes the format of interviews with the eight surviving heads of Shin Bet explaining why they did what they did which was just obeying orders.
'The Gatekeepers offers an exclusive account of the sum of their success and failures. It validates the reasons that each man individually and the six as a group came to reconsider their hard-line positions and advocate a conciliatory approach toward their enemies based on a two-state solution.'
He (Moreh) told the Times of Israel that making the film “changed me a lot....It made me more desperate, more bleak. I saw from their eyes how our leaders really don’t want to solve this problem. They do not have the audacity, the temerity, the will, the courage that we need from a leader.” He added, “I am not putting the blame only on the Israeli leaders. I think the Palestinian leaders suffer from the same horrible disease. I think that what [former Israeli foreign minister] Abba Eban said about how the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity applies to both sides.
No not all bad.That was what was so chilling. The sheer normality of it.They spoke voluntarily to an Israeli interviewer so you could say they had a conscience. But putting yourself in the mind of the Palestinians you could understand fear beyond imagination.
Very interesting comment from the director that you added. I as a viewer found it profound and depressing and ironically was the reason for my irritation with MaxPB. It was the nuanced horror and the moral dilemmas that made comments like his about a paedophile seem so childish. (I only watched it a couple of days ago)
Not only is he going to prison for a long time, he is going to be in protective solitary confinement for most of that time. He wouldn't survive a year in a Cat A prison with a guilty plea on a charge like that.
Call me naive, I have never really thought about the anatomy of such a young child to be honest, but surely it is nigh on impossible for a grown man to do what he attempted to do
In his diaries Jeffrey Archer mentions a prisoner who was incarcerated for a similar crime.
The unbelievably foul way that the prisoner *ahem* solved the conundrum you refer to is only one line in one diary but it still makes me shiver years later whenever (just as now) I am reminded of it.
Comments
However if it is not the law is clear. I repeat: If a British citizen recants their citizenship of Britain to join a non-EU member nation like eg America is their EU citizenship kept? Have you got an answer?
Pop star Ian Watkins admits being guilty of a string of sex offences against children, including the attempted rape of a baby:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-25108439
(Assuming he's honourable enough to resign).
If that's how the Scots really feel, better they go their own way as soon as possible - and be really independent i.e. with their own currency, central bank and the rest of it. How can a self-respecting nation not want proper independence?
I think cooler heads will reign in Scotland and they will vote to stay in the Union, but I don't know where they go from there. The relationship will have changed irrevocably after the vote, but they will have voted to stay in the Union. I think Barnett has to be ended and Scotland should get more of their own budget setting powers as long as they stick to the spending envelope set out by the Westminster government of the day. Not sure how such a system would work in practice though as it could lead to wildly different welfare and benefit systems.
We have, however, crossed the Rubicon. There is no going back to how it is today and definitely no going back to how the relationship was pre-devolution.
I think the "in" campaign needs to come up with an answer to that question rather than just go for the type of politics you mention. There is uncertainty whatever happens after the vote, but Salmond's document is a joke and the "in" side should now set out a realistic path forwards for the union and be the voice of reason, not just like a spiteful ex telling you that it will never be the same without him/her.
US planes challenge China air zone
The European Commission avoided speaking about the Scottish PM Alex Salmond's independence plans this Tuesday, insisting that they were "an internal matter for the UK", but it repeated that Scotland would have to request membership of the EU if it became independent.
"The Treaty has articles that are clear about the necessity for a new third country to request membership," Olivier Bailly, the spokesman for the Commisison Executive stated.
"Our well-known position has not changed," he pointed out. "We do not have any comment to make because this news does not relate to the institutions of the EU. It is an internal matter for the UK," the spokesman stated on being asked whether he agreed with the claim by Salmond that Scotland would continue as an EU member after independence.
"Whatever process takes place that has the effect of a region of a member state leaving that member state will have implications under the Treaty that we will only specifically comment on once we receive a detailed legal scenario from a member state. The rest is speculation," Bailly said.
According to the Commission interpretation that has been repeated on previous occasions, for Scotland as well as Catalonia, if a region of a member state becomes independent it is automatically excluded from the EU and all treaties would cease to apply there. If it wished to re-enter it would have to request membership, something that would then have to be unanimously ratified by all member states.
You can see the original here (last few paragraphs):
http://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20131126/54394521297/salmond-defiende-el-potencial-de-escocia-para-ser-independiente.html
Ah. Right.
However the moment they leave they should have no say whatsoever in what goes on I the remaining country. None of this 'oh but we'll keep the bits that suit us' lark. The boot is entirely on the other foot. They can keep the bits that it suits us to let them keep. If they want to be reigned over by HMQ then they can start paying for the privilege. If we can find some sufficiently sharp lawyers then perhaps we should ask for ongoing fees for the usage of the English language.
More seriously though there isn't any space for an independent Scotland in the decision making of the Bank of England, the programming of the BBC, nor the diplomatic high-table. Independence guarantees marginalisation and obscurity, whereas tied to the rest of the UK they have at least a fighting chance that such a fate can be avoided.
I note below, courtesy of 'state_go_away'
"Eventually, the kings of England stopped pretending that they were also kings of France, and the fleur de lys disappeared from their arms. "
Still early days on that!
A little into WW2 Churchill proposed a Union with France. If that had been accepted then I wonder where we might be in relation to that expanded union.
In addition I think it extremely unlikely that dual citizenship will not be on offer to citizens of an independent Scotland.
We argued about Arsenal and Spurs success/spending/wages a while ago, here is quite an interesting article about Arsenals spending (transfers & wages) in the Wenger years.
http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2013/10/24/arsene-wenger-what-is-he-good-for-251001/
Charles Saatchi accused his ex-wife Nigella Lawson and her daughter of being "so off your heads on drugs" that she allowed staff to spend "whatever they liked", a court has heard."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25108052
LOL
Mr. Jones, surely China repossesses US planes?
Celebrity chef cooks up an illegal snow (7, 6)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-26/sony-seeks-smartwig-patent-for-hairpieces-with-camera-sensors.html
" I hope the coppers "forget" to keep him safe and justice is served properly on this vile scumbag. Prison time does not seem like a punishment equal to this crime. Daily floggings to within an inch of his life do, however. I'm not usually one for bloodlust, but I will make an exception in this case."
You Tories are all nutters. Time you accepted it gracefully. You positively queue up to outdo each other in the way you would like to physically abuse some unfortunate miscreant. Socrates was the worst but most of the rest of you are just as loopy.
"Hollywood Producer Admits He Was Israeli Spy."
If you want to see Israel in its chilling naked glory get a copy of the Oscar nominated film "Gatekeepers". As chilling an expose on real evil as any interview with ex Nazis.
It takes the format of interviews with the eight surviving heads of Shin Bet explaining why they did what they did which was just obeying orders.
Not all bad then Roger.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_gatekeepers_2012/
Interesting comment from the director.
He (Moreh) told the Times of Israel that making the film “changed me a lot....It made me more desperate, more bleak. I saw from their eyes how our leaders really don’t want to solve this problem. They do not have the audacity, the temerity, the will, the courage that we need from a leader.” He added, “I am not putting the blame only on the Israeli leaders. I think the Palestinian leaders suffer from the same horrible disease. I think that what [former Israeli foreign minister] Abba Eban said about how the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity applies to both sides.
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn
"Not all bad then Roger"
No not all bad.That was what was so chilling. The sheer normality of it.They spoke voluntarily to an Israeli interviewer so you could say they had a conscience. But putting yourself in the mind of the Palestinians you could understand fear beyond imagination.
Very interesting comment from the director that you added. I as a viewer found it profound and depressing and ironically was the reason for my irritation with MaxPB. It was the nuanced horror and the moral dilemmas that made comments like his about a paedophile seem so childish. (I only watched it a couple of days ago)
The unbelievably foul way that the prisoner *ahem* solved the conundrum you refer to is only one line in one diary but it still makes me shiver years later whenever (just as now) I am reminded of it.