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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718

    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone placed bets on the Tories gaining seats in Scotland?

    Nope.
    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1200551725519835137?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    edited November 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Also re Buttigieg, I would also point out that he has the lowest disapproval rating (among Democrats) of any candidate. That doesn't speak to me of a candidate who's massively repelling large numbers of voters.

    Here are the numbers from FiveThirtyEight:

    Gabbard    32.7%
    Sanders 25.4%
    Biden 25.3%
    Harris 25.9%
    Steyer 21.0%
    Klobuchar 19.2%
    Booker 19.9%
    Yang 20.6%
    Warren 18.4%
    Buttigieg 16.1%
    Thanks.

    As I have said before, I think we are in for a surprise with Buttigieg.

    Trump vs Buttigieg.

    What a fascinating competition between the generations and world views.

    Trump - draft dodger.

    Buttigieg - Afghanistan.
    And George W was in the Texas Air National Guard, while Kerry won the Purple Heart in Vietnam. And a fat lot of good it did Kerry.
    I agree that Buttigieg vs Trump is by far the most exciting match up. Really fascinating to see them up against each other.
    My view is that successful Presidential candidates are blank slates onto which voters project their hopes. And the fresher faced you are, the easier you can pull that trick off.
    Kerry gave this supurb speech in 1971 and really caught the zeigeist, but America is a country that re-invents its history to match the myth, and by the nineties these home truths were even more uncomfortable.
    https://youtu.be/yixdveuf0GQ
    I did rather think Trump was pretty crass in Afghanistan yesterday to be talking about getting a deal from the Taliban, making it sound like a New York Real Estate Deal, when in reality the men probably agree with 1971 Kerry.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,775
    HYUFD said:

    I see Hillary was on Graham Norton tonight with Chelsea, cannot see her running again though and still think it will be Warren or Sanders

    The zeitgeist would suggest someone from the more radical side of the party. But I think for one of those two to win, you need to see the other knocked out early. And the same is true of the moderates. The quicker that you see a single moderate, the better for that wing of the party.
  • JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    edited November 2019
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone placed bets on the Tories gaining seats in Scotland?

    Nope.
    I think they might get one, but it's difficult to predict which one it might be.
    Is there such a bookmaker that's accepting such strange bets???

    So I got my ballot paper and I did indeed vote Tory.

    I got ballot paper and suddenly all my dithering had gone and I decided to vote Labour. But it seemed like such important documents that I thought I'd let it sit for a few hours. Then I saw the Scottish thread this afternoon - and as well as being terrible news for a Scots unionist it also put me in a bit of a quandary as to who I voted.

    By the time the debate was on I decided I was definatley going to vote either.

    Labour - Stop the SNP
    Con - Stop the SNP, like Brexit policy, not going to win though
    LD - Save deposit, dislike Brexit policy, legalise Weed though!
    Write In For Girlfriend- Yes I know it would get counted as spoilen, but maybe I might get a good returning officer; and if a lot of people do it...

    Ms Briskin (GF in question), vetoed the write in just as I was away to do it, so I went emeenie meenie minie mo between between Con and labour and got Con.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see Hillary was on Graham Norton tonight with Chelsea, cannot see her running again though and still think it will be Warren or Sanders

    The zeitgeist would suggest someone from the more radical side of the party. But I think for one of those two to win, you need to see the other knocked out early. And the same is true of the moderates. The quicker that you see a single moderate, the better for that wing of the party.
    I think neither Sanders nor Biden will lastmuch beyond Super Tuesday. I have a long shot bet on Amy, but in reality it is Warren and Buttigeig now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    edited November 2019
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see Hillary was on Graham Norton tonight with Chelsea, cannot see her running again though and still think it will be Warren or Sanders

    The zeitgeist would suggest someone from the more radical side of the party. But I think for one of those two to win, you need to see the other knocked out early. And the same is true of the moderates. The quicker that you see a single moderate, the better for that wing of the party.
    I think neither Sanders nor Biden will lastmuch beyond Super Tuesday. I have a long shot bet on Amy, but in reality it is Warren and Buttigeig now.
    Sanders is ahead in the latest New Hampshire polls

    https://emersonpolling.reportablenews.com/pr/new-hampshire-2020-sanders-jumps-to-lead-buttigieg-surges-while-warren-and-biden-falter
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone placed bets on the Tories gaining seats in Scotland?

    Nope.
    I think they might get one, but it's difficult to predict which one it might be.
    Is there such a bookmaker that's accepting such strange bets???

    So I got my ballot paper and I did indeed vote Tory.

    I got ballot paper and suddenly all my dithering had gone and I decided to vote Labour. But it seemed like such important documents that I thought I'd let it sit for a few hours. Then I saw the Scottish thread this afternoon - and as well as being terrible news for a Scots unionist it also put me in a bit of a quandary as to who I voted.

    By the time the debate was on I decided I was definatley going to vote either.

    Labour - Stop the SNP
    Con - Stop the SNP, like Brexit policy, not going to win though
    LD - Save deposit, dislike Brexit policy, legalise Weed though!
    Write In For Girlfriend- Yes I know it would get counted as spoilen, but maybe I might get a good returning officer; and if a lot of people do it...

    Ms Briskin (GF in question), vetoed the write in just as I was away to do it, so I went emeenie meenie minie mo between between Con and labour and got Con.
    I'd love to know which pollster predicted that outcome correctly!
  • nico67 said:

    If Bozo tries to make political capital out of this then Labour should respond with a simple message . Too little too late , you cut the police and now are just replacing what you lost .

    Aswell as the cuts to community policing , that could well be a bigger issue . Johnson is going to be all about the future will be great with all his new police and much harsher sentencing , it’s difficult to compete with that message but you can try and channel the public anger about what has been done in the past .

    Labour want the voters to punish previous bad decisions not be wanting to reward the Tories for future promises on police etc.

    Voters don't reward governments for what they have done. They look at what is offered for the future and who is the best (or least worst) to deliver it. What has changed though is voters base their decision on social media posts and copy from activist journalists. The quality information we need is drowned out by stupidity and banality. And worst of all it is now normal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see Hillary was on Graham Norton tonight with Chelsea, cannot see her running again though and still think it will be Warren or Sanders

    The zeitgeist would suggest someone from the more radical side of the party. But I think for one of those two to win, you need to see the other knocked out early. And the same is true of the moderates. The quicker that you see a single moderate, the better for that wing of the party.
    I think neither Sanders nor Biden will lastmuch beyond Super Tuesday. I have a long shot bet on Amy, but in reality it is Warren and Buttigeig now.
    Sanders is ahead in the latest New Hampshire polls
    Not gonna happen. Apart from his age, he has high baseline support, but a low ceiling, as shown in @rcs1000 table.
  • I know you all know I really dislike Johnson and the Tories but what he's done tonight has made me really very angry.

    I don't want to go into details - not wishing to identify myself - but I have a connection to the events today and this is a real kick in the teeth for me
  • Brom said:

    Foxy said:

    Brom said:

    If the bbc and itv are anything to go by the public anger is directed at the parole board and the Mayor. I’m sure more information will come out in the next 24 hours. I hope there will be no further fatalities.

    As people with an interest in politics it is understandable to speculate how this might affect an election. It is a black swan event and hard to predict and really it may have a large influence on voters or it may have none at all.

    The Mayor is not responsible for the probation service is he? that is the Ministry of Justice, surely.
    I think his previous comments have clearly come back to haunt him. I don’t actually think he’s that unpopular in London just other parts of the country. Technically a lot of terrorism has happened under his watch but it’s clearly not his fault just his actions and comments have been wide of the mark
    This has happened on Khan's watch...again. Trump will call him out for this failure during his forthcoming visit.
    That will badly backfire if he does.
  • I know you all know I really dislike Johnson and the Tories but what he's done tonight has made me really very angry.

    I don't want to go into details - not wishing to identify myself - but I have a connection to the events today and this is a real kick in the teeth for me

    Sorry to hear that, CHB.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Had an enjoyable Churchillian dinner in Harlow this evening with Robert Halfon, though Priti Patel pulled out at the last minute as she had to attend Cobra after today's incident for understandable reasons

    Harlow is one of the few large-ish English towns I've never visited. I'd like to visit it because I'm interested in the history of New Towns and it was the first one I think.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:



    I do hope the campaign isn’t suspended for longer than a day, it certainly sends the wrong message against terrorism. Maybe 1 day to respect the victims would be appropriate and then back to business.

    The message from Labour HQ to campaigners this evening was that Corbyn and Johnosn had spoken about the attack and agreed to resume ground campaigning tomorrow, so as to make a statement that the democratic process could not be intimidated. HQ asked campaigners to only put out positive social media today.
    Good to hear Nick
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    In all ruminating over the events of today, it did strike me that not even the creative genius of Chris Morris could have come up with his suicide bombers in Four Lions being chased down the street by a guy armed with a five foot fucking narwhal tusk.
    A narwhal tusk.
    Reality top trumps fiction, every time.

    I don't know what a narwhal tusk is, so this website I've just found is useful.

    https://oceanconservancy.org/blog/2019/03/08/exactly-narwhal-tusk/
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/theamycoop/status/1200513388889223169
    I was wondering what the white pole visible in the videos was.

    Seems that at least one person was reformed by the theraputic community approach.
    That is not really appropriate to be honest
    An ex con turned hero? sounds positive to me.
    The nuance in your statement was not that innocent imho
    On the contrary, I have always favoured a more positive attitude to rehabilitation. It is fundamental to my Christian faith that people are redeemable.
    I'm an atheist. I think we should quite liberally let people do whatever they want to do so long as it doesn't harm others, but if people do harm others I'm quite prepared to lock them up forever if we need to or they deserve it. I don't think religious fancies of rehabilitation should come into it - scientific evidence of rehabilitation is another matter.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Had an enjoyable Churchillian dinner in Harlow this evening with Robert Halfon, though Priti Patel pulled out at the last minute as she had to attend Cobra after today's incident for understandable reasons

    Harlow is one of the few large-ish English towns I've never visited. I'd like to visit it because I'm interested in the history of New Towns and it was the first one I think.
    There is a brilliant documentary about Basildon new town over the years on BFI player. A great bit of social history.

    https://player.bfi.org.uk/subscription/film/watch-new-town-utopia-2017-online

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2019
    ..
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/theamycoop/status/1200513388889223169
    I was wondering what the white pole visible in the videos was.

    Seems that at least one person was reformed by the theraputic community approach.
    That is not really appropriate to be honest
    An ex con turned hero? sounds positive to me.
    The nuance in your statement was not that innocent imho
    On the contrary, I have always favoured a more positive attitude to rehabilitation. It is fundamental to my Christian faith that people are redeemable.
    I'm an atheist. I think we should quite liberally let people do whatever they want to do so long as it doesn't harm others, but if people do harm others I'm quite prepared to lock them up forever if we need to or they deserve it. I don't think religious fancies of rehabilitation should come into it - scientific evidence of rehabilitation is another matter.
    In that case we are in agreement. The rehabilitative approach to incarceration demonstrates much better results too.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    Andy_JS said:

    In all ruminating over the events of today, it did strike me that not even the creative genius of Chris Morris could have come up with his suicide bombers in Four Lions being chased down the street by a guy armed with a five foot fucking narwhal tusk.
    A narwhal tusk.
    Reality top trumps fiction, every time.

    I don't know what a narwhal tusk is, so this website I've just found is useful.

    https://oceanconservancy.org/blog/2019/03/08/exactly-narwhal-tusk/
    I have found it surprising tonight how many people on here don't know what a narwhal tusk is and, presumably, what a narwhal is. It's like how incredulous I felt watching that West Wing episode where half the White House didn't know what a lynx is.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/theamycoop/status/1200513388889223169
    I was wondering what the white pole visible in the videos was.

    Seems that at least one person was reformed by the theraputic community approach.
    That is not really appropriate to be honest
    An ex con turned hero? sounds positive to me.
    The nuance in your statement was not that innocent imho
    On the contrary, I have always favoured a more positive attitude to rehabilitation. It is fundamental to my Christian faith that people are redeemable.
    I'm an atheist. I think we should quite liberally let people do whatever they want to do so long as it doesn't harm others, but if people do harm others I'm quite prepared to lock them up forever if we need to or they deserve it. I don't think religious fancies of rehabilitation should come into it - scientific evidence of rehabilitation is another matter.
    In that case we are in agreement. The rehabilitative approach to incarceration demonstrates much better results too.
    Such bullshit from the pair of you. Weed is still illegal. Our robot overlords and the CIA are running the show. 1984 is here and all you type is "rehabilitative" on the internet.
  • What I fear about this case is that the 99% of people that do get rehabilitated are going to be forgotten about and made to suffer because one person did some really truly terrible things. I guess that's how it will always be.
  • Foxy said:

    In that case we are in agreement. The rehabilitative approach to incarceration demonstrates much better results too.

    For certain classes of criminals.

    For other groups of criminals recidivism is extremely high whatever type of approach you take - the only alternative that doesn't lead to recidivism is to never release the criminal.
  • Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    You are right. This will play well for Boris
    The Manchester Arena attack didn't have that effect in 2017. Indeed it focussed attention on Tory police cuts..

    Will also focus on Corbyn's open door immigration policy & the assorted nutters that will be let in.
  • Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    You are right. This will play well for Boris
    The Manchester Arena attack didn't have that effect in 2017. Indeed it focussed attention on Tory police cuts..

    Will also focus on Corbyn's open door immigration policy & the assorted nutters that will be let in.
    Corbyn only will maintain FOM that we already have, literally right now, if we remain in the EU. If we are to Leave, he will negotiate a similar package but it will be for EU migration only.

    So are you saying you disagree with the current immigration system that the Tories have been implementing for 9 years?
  • Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018
  • Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018

    Had served 6 years
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    You are right. This will play well for Boris
    The Manchester Arena attack didn't have that effect in 2017. Indeed it focussed attention on Tory police cuts..

    Will also focus on Corbyn's open door immigration policy & the assorted nutters that will be let in.
    Corbyn only will maintain FOM that we already have, literally right now, if we remain in the EU. If we are to Leave, he will negotiate a similar package but it will be for EU migration only.

    So are you saying you disagree with the current immigration system that the Tories have been implementing for 9 years?
    Wasn't that one of the main reasons that people voted Leave?
  • RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    You are right. This will play well for Boris
    The Manchester Arena attack didn't have that effect in 2017. Indeed it focussed attention on Tory police cuts..

    Will also focus on Corbyn's open door immigration policy & the assorted nutters that will be let in.
    Corbyn only will maintain FOM that we already have, literally right now, if we remain in the EU. If we are to Leave, he will negotiate a similar package but it will be for EU migration only.

    So are you saying you disagree with the current immigration system that the Tories have been implementing for 9 years?
    Wasn't that one of the main reasons that people voted Leave?
    Actually according to polling most people support maintaining EU FOM after we've left
  • Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018

    Had served 6 years
    Not long enough.

    Is this the case? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16968518

    Was sentenced for an indeterminate sentence so could have been held forever. Was sentenced for a minimum of 8 years, and was out on the streets to murder today after only 6.
  • Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018

    Had served 6 years
    Not long enough.

    Is this the case? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16968518

    Was sentenced for an indeterminate sentence so could have been held forever. Was sentenced for a minimum of 8 years, and was out on the streets to murder today after only 6.
    Judge Mr Justice Wilkie said these three were "the more serious jihadists" and said they should not be released until they were no longer a threat to the public.

    The court heard they planned to establish the terrorist camp on land in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir owned by Khan's family and encourage a "significant" number of British Muslims to undergo training there.
  • If we can't deport people like this we should at least incarcerate them until they die in prison. Or at least until they've served their minimum term.
  • Unfortuantely, this won't be the last time we will see people terrorist being released from prison, or come back from Syria and attempting to commit terrorist attacks. There are just so many of them, and we know that in some prisons in the UK, the environment is the opposite of deradicalization. Thus, it is only a matter of time.
  • If we can't deport people like this we should at least incarcerate them until they die in prison. Or at least until they've served their minimum term.

    Do you even know if he is deportable? You're making an incredible assumption that he's not British born
  • It's unfortunate you multi-cultural londonites were so keen on a Muslim. It all looks a bit farcical now doesn't it?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Tories being soft wets pretending to be conservatives finally coming back to bite them on the arse. What a shame.
  • Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018

    In the light of the information that is in the public domain up until now it is going to take something pretty substantial for me to believe the prison and probation service are at fault here.

    We do not lock prisoners up and throw away the key unless they are considered to be so mentally ill as to be a permanent risk to the public. It is very easy to see how someone could have served 6 years and then be liable for parole. Our laws don't generally allow us to just keep him inside after his term is up and it is not beyond the wit of most people to make a convincing case for being reformed either.

    There will be those looking for scapegoats amongst the prison service and parole board but, as is so often the case, this is really part of the larger debate about how we react to these acts of terrorism and whether we are willing, as a civilised society, to say that anyone involved in such acts is irredeemably bad. That is a decision that should be made by Parliament as a matter of public policy, not the justice system acting in isolation. All they can do is follow the guidance provided by our lawmakers.
  • If we can't deport people like this we should at least incarcerate them until they die in prison. Or at least until they've served their minimum term.

    Do you even know if he is deportable? You're making an incredible assumption that he's not British born
    He's a British national. Deportation is not an option, keeping him in prison for more than just 6 years is.
  • Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018

    In the light of the information that is in the public domain up until now it is going to take something pretty substantial for me to believe the prison and probation service are at fault here.

    We do not lock prisoners up and throw away the key unless they are considered to be so mentally ill as to be a permanent risk to the public. It is very easy to see how someone could have served 6 years and then be liable for parole. Our laws don't generally allow us to just keep him inside after his term is up and it is not beyond the wit of most people to make a convincing case for being reformed either.

    There will be those looking for scapegoats amongst the prison service and parole board but, as is so often the case, this is really part of the larger debate about how we react to these acts of terrorism and whether we are willing, as a civilised society, to say that anyone involved in such acts is irredeemably bad. That is a decision that should be made by Parliament as a matter of public policy, not the justice system acting in isolation. All they can do is follow the guidance provided by our lawmakers.
    Agree.

    And this event being for rehabilitated prisoners I assume has been running for some time with presumably some success hence in 99% of cases the right thing is being done. Of course that doesn't undo this at all but we should always put things into context.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    edited November 2019

    Tories being soft wets pretending to be conservatives finally coming back to bite them on the arse. What a shame.

    The legacy of the Cameron, Clegg and May and Rudd years, as Boris made clear today he is rightly now going to end early release and especially for terrorists with the policy driven by the tough, hardline new Home Secretary Priti Patel.

    Priti will be the best Home Secretary since Michael Howard.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2019

    Unfortuantely, this won't be the last time we will see people terrorist being released from prison, or come back from Syria and attempting to commit terrorist attacks. There are just so many of them, and we know that in some prisons in the UK, the environment is the opposite of deradicalization. Thus, it is only a matter of time.

    Then don't release them. Don't see many prisoners stabbing people to death on the streets.
    Incarceration works. It is releasing those who want to kill innocent people back onto the streets that doesn't.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Criminals?
  • Well it didn't take long for some to start making political capital out of this, not surprised unfortunately
  • Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    You are right. This will play well for Boris
    The Manchester Arena attack didn't have that effect in 2017. Indeed it focussed attention on Tory police cuts..

    Will also focus on Corbyn's open door immigration policy & the assorted nutters that will be let in.
    Corbyn only will maintain FOM that we already have, literally right now, if we remain in the EU. If we are to Leave, he will negotiate a similar package but it will be for EU migration only.

    So are you saying you disagree with the current immigration system that the Tories have been implementing for 9 years?

    You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

  • You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

    >Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

    Source?

    >You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    What is wrong with the current system?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    edited November 2019
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Had an enjoyable Churchillian dinner in Harlow this evening with Robert Halfon, though Priti Patel pulled out at the last minute as she had to attend Cobra after today's incident for understandable reasons

    Harlow is one of the few large-ish English towns I've never visited. I'd like to visit it because I'm interested in the history of New Towns and it was the first one I think.
    Goingbthrre tomorrow morning leafleting, then canvassing in Chingford in the afternoon.

    Interesting if you like new towns but Old Harlow is the most pleasant bit, pre-dates the Doomsday Book with Grade 1 and Grade 2 listed buildings
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited November 2019
    One of the heroes was another prisoner on day release (convicted for murder), presumably at the same event as the terrorist.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.
  • JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    edited November 2019


    You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

    >Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

    Source?

    >You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    What is wrong with the current system?
    I see one problem with the current system. Continental Europeans are taught English from a young age. We currently have a system that does not teach any foreign modern language from a young age. Change that - I might just learn to love the EU. The best I can get from now on is min wage and, frankly, because of supply and demand; EU immigrants are at fault.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Gabs3 said:

    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.

    Well, I can see a flaw in your plan
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
    Ed Balls is the most popular Labour politician according to YouGov.
    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/labour-politicians/all
  • funkhauserfunkhauser Posts: 325
    edited November 2019


    You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

    >Diane Abbott has pledged worldwide freedom of movement,do keep up.

    Source?

    >You do know the current FOM system is based on our EU membership & it will change to a points based system when we leave?

    What is wrong with the current system?

    https://www.politicshome.com › political-parties › labour-party › news › di...
    14 Nov 2019 - A Labour government would "maintain and extend freedom of movement", Diane Abbott has declared. ... Her comments came a day after Unite general secretary Len McCluskey said Labour's election manifesto should water down a motion passed at the party's annual conference calling for free ...




  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,775
    Andy_JS said:

    Ed Balls is the most popular Labour politician according to YouGov.
    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/labour-politicians/all

    Did they also people what their favourite STD is?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Floater said:

    Gabs3 said:

    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.

    Well, I can see a flaw in your plan
    I suspect that's a feature rather than a bug...
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    Most of the readjusted polling showed the Jo Cox murder did move the polls towards Remain. I think Leave would have won by about 10 points had it not happened.
  • Gabs3 said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    Most of the readjusted polling showed the Jo Cox murder did move the polls towards Remain. I think Leave would have won by about 10 points had it not happened.
    I don't believe that for one second.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Floater said:

    Gabs3 said:

    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.

    Well, I can see a flaw in your plan
    If people sign up for a long war against the British state they can expect to be treated accordingly.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ed Balls is the most popular Labour politician according to YouGov.
    https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/labour-politicians/all

    Did they also people what their favourite STD is?
    It's rather an indictment of Labour's current position that Balls is the most popular Labour politician four and a half years after he lost his seat. I'm surprised he's still getting that much recognition with the public. Maybe they remember him from the TV show he was on.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Gabs3 said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    Most of the readjusted polling showed the Jo Cox murder did move the polls towards Remain. I think Leave would have won by about 10 points had it not happened.
    I don't believe that for one second.
    I think the analysis came from the LSE blog. I cannot find it but maybe someone else can.
  • Gabs3 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Byronic said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    Byronic said:

    Chris said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Is now really the time for this kind of comment?
    Others are trying to make it political

    Personally I think it is best not to so my regrets in doing so. Sorry
    The Guardian is trying to politicize it. “Tory cuts to police to blame” blah blah blah puke

    They really are obnoxious
    Bozo’s statement suggests he thinks police numbers are of some relevance.
    They shot him dead in less than 5 minutes allegedly....... what more can we reasonably expect?
    This assumes that voters are reasonable, and that people behave in a logical manner if they feel threatened...

    But anyway, as others have observed this is a black swan event that may or may not have political salience. We'll have to wait for evidence in respect of this.
    These events don’t generally change the game. Everyone expected the murder of Remainer Jo Cox by a mad Britain First guy to shift the referendum, not least coz they suspended campaigning for 3 days! Yet Leave still won

    What they do do is alter the narrative flow. This hideous murder came on a day when Labour were doing well, Boris’ dad, NHS, etc. Now we will be talking about terror, prison, migration and Islam for a few days. Not natural territory for the jezbollah
    Most of the readjusted polling showed the Jo Cox murder did move the polls towards Remain. I think Leave would have won by about 10 points had it not happened.
    I don't believe that for one second.
    I think the analysis came from the LSE blog. I cannot find it but maybe someone else can.
    The LSE's got a blog?
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    One of the heroes was another prisoner on day release (convicted for murder), presumably at the same event as the terrorist.

    Terrorism is very different.

    These people rarely change their idealogies
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,775
    Gabs3 said:

    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.

    So, what you're saying is that when President Trump declares victory over a terrorist organisation, we release all its former members?
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    Terrorist had previous form, released in 2018

    Had served 6 years
    Not long enough.

    Is this the case? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16968518

    Was sentenced for an indeterminate sentence so could have been held forever. Was sentenced for a minimum of 8 years, and was out on the streets to murder today after only 6.
    Clearly Boris had early intel on this, hence his comments regarding ending early release.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.

    So, what you're saying is that when President Trump declares victory over a terrorist organisation, we release all its former members?
    And they all move to Ireland to become politicians?

    #amidoingitrite
    #IamDrunk
    #FreeMadiba
  • rcs1000 said:

    Gabs3 said:

    People who are duly convicted of terrorist offences, after due process has been followed, should remain incarcerated for a duration similar to prisoners of war. I.e. until the organisation they were fighting for has surrendered.

    So, what you're saying is that when President Trump declares victory over a terrorist organisation, we release all its former members?
    Or we could go down the American route. Get a sentence for each offence to be served consecutively. In 365 years they can be eligible for parole.
  • MauveMauve Posts: 129
    Mango said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Criminals?
    Most likely the main winners. Abbott will let them roam free in case it violates any of their rights. Patel will lock up anyone who expresses the wrong thoughts and never let them out (whether or not they're guilty of an actual crime). Either way justice will lose.
  • Mauve said:

    Mango said:

    If this comes down to who do you trust to keep us safe

    Boris/Patel

    Corbyn/Abbott

    I can only see one winner

    Criminals?
    Most likely the main winners. Abbott will let them roam free in case it violates any of their rights. Patel will lock up anyone who expresses the wrong thoughts and never let them out (whether or not they're guilty of an actual crime). Either way justice will lose.
    Justice?

    Only a few days after the pathetic weeps from the people of Liverpool after their apparent lack of "justice"

    How fucking dare you type such a word on my screen
  • The public school past that Marxist McDonnell tried to hide....

    When pressed, both McDonnell and the Labour Party have offered scant detail; detail which has been contradictory, opaque or downright dubious. McDonnell never refers to St Joseph's by its correct name, calling it 'De La Salle College'.

    There are a number of schools around the UK and abroad with this title. The one in Basildon, Essex, is a comprehensive. But there is no De La Salle College in Ipswich. St Joseph's was founded by the De La Salle Catholic brotherhood.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7740117/The-public-school-past-Marxist-McDonnell-tried-hide.html
  • The public school past that Marxist McDonnell tried to hide....

    When pressed, both McDonnell and the Labour Party have offered scant detail; detail which has been contradictory, opaque or downright dubious. McDonnell never refers to St Joseph's by its correct name, calling it 'De La Salle College'.

    There are a number of schools around the UK and abroad with this title. The one in Basildon, Essex, is a comprehensive. But there is no De La Salle College in Ipswich. St Joseph's was founded by the De La Salle Catholic brotherhood.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7740117/The-public-school-past-Marxist-McDonnell-tried-hide.html

    While I didn't click on the link the story you tell is intriguing. I must admit my eyes opened a bit since my relationship with my privately educated GF. But we live on a council estate and while there is more than one reason I'm typing out so late at night ; the main one almost definitely is cus she's ran out of her spare prescribed benzos to give me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
    Is it still possible to buy the party manifestos in newsagents, or are they online only?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
    "The Liberal Democrats have scrapped their pledge to revoke Article 50, a leading candidate has confirmed
    Layla Moran told BBC Breakfast the party had gone “back to plan A” and would no longer push to cancel Brexit outright.
    Speaking to host Naga Munchetty, the Oxford West and Abingdon candidate said the party would instead campaign for a second referendum."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/liberal-democrats-candidate-layla-moran-says-party-is-going-back-to-plan-a-by-scrapping-pledge-to-a4298926.html
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106



    I have found it surprising tonight how many people on here don't know what a narwhal tusk is and, presumably, what a narwhal is. It's like how incredulous I felt watching that West Wing episode where half the White House didn't know what a lynx is.

    Eh up, Davey Attenborough's in.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    "Why the Scottish Conservatives are defying electoral expectations
    The party’s unambiguous opposition to independence could help it remain the
    country’s second largest force."
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/11/why-scottish-conservatives-are-defying-electoral-expectations
  • The public school past that Marxist McDonnell tried to hide....

    When pressed, both McDonnell and the Labour Party have offered scant detail; detail which has been contradictory, opaque or downright dubious. McDonnell never refers to St Joseph's by its correct name, calling it 'De La Salle College'.

    There are a number of schools around the UK and abroad with this title. The one in Basildon, Essex, is a comprehensive. But there is no De La Salle College in Ipswich. St Joseph's was founded by the De La Salle Catholic brotherhood.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7740117/The-public-school-past-Marxist-McDonnell-tried-hide.html

    Minor public school: Labour. Major public school: Conservative. Winning Here: LibDem, even if they only scored 12 per cent last time.
  • Big fan of Mike, OGH.

    Editorially, though, I'm taking the message to be that if things aren't going well for the centre-left in the UK, then we should start talking about the Democrats in the USA.

    Some unkind people would call this "displacement" activity. I wouldn't. But some would.
  • Big fan of Mike, OGH.

    Editorially, though, I'm taking the message to be that if things aren't going well for the centre-left in the UK, then we should start talking about the Democrats in the USA.

    Some unkind people would call this "displacement" activity. I wouldn't. But some would.

    I'm a big fan of yourself Mr Littlewood, but it's always slightly chubby yank I see on the TV nowadays; hope your keeping fine.

    We don't do displacement activity round here. Look what I've got for you all-

    https://youtu.be/-gBIwBE9-vo
  • Big fan of Mike, OGH.

    Editorially, though, I'm taking the message to be that if things aren't going well for the centre-left in the UK, then we should start talking about the Democrats in the USA.

    Some unkind people would call this "displacement" activity. I wouldn't. But some would.

    I'm a big fan of yourself Mr Littlewood, but it's always slightly chubby yank I see on the TV nowadays; hope your keeping fine.

    We don't do displacement activity round here. Look what I've got for you all-

    https://youtu.be/-gBIwBE9-vo
    Beyond awesome. I am grateful for your intervention!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    edited November 2019
    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.
  • moonshine said:

    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.

    Looks like 2 innocent citizens are dead and one other is close to death after this attack. You can't set your criminal justice system around that, obviously. But there are some questions here.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    edited November 2019

    moonshine said:

    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.

    Looks like 2 innocent citizens are dead and one other is close to death after this attack. You can't set your criminal justice system around that, obviously. But there are some questions here.
    There are some great lessons to be learnt from around the world. My favourite is the criminalisation of foreign money funding any religious building or activity (state to make up shortfall as appropriate).
    If society can’t have the hard conversations when something like this happens during an election campaign, it never will. But I dare say all sides will be scared of being seen as “politicising a tragedy” and the debate will stay stuck where it’s been for a couple of decades.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
    moonshine said:

    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.

    See section 79 on page 22, in which the attacker had his indeterminate sentence reduced by the court of appeal to a 16 year one, (which actually meant 6 years in practice).
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-usman-khan-others.pdf
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    edited November 2019
    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.

    See section 79 on page 22, in which the attacker had his indeterminate sentence reduced by the court of appeal to a 16 year one, (which actually meant 6 years in practice).
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-usman-khan-others.pdf
    16 years = 6 years in practice? Oh that’s ok then. For plotting to build a terror training camp and blow up the stock exchange.
    It will upset people to hear but I do see a Brexit parallel here. Get a grip on wooly liberal treatment of criminal justice or before long you’ll see an insurgent political campaign take things far further then they otherwise would do.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited November 2019
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,775
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.

    See section 79 on page 22, in which the attacker had his indeterminate sentence reduced by the court of appeal to a 16 year one, (which actually meant 6 years in practice).
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-usman-khan-others.pdf
    16 years = 6 years in practice? Oh that’s ok then. For plotting to build a terror training camp and blow up the stock exchange.
    It will upset people to hear but I do see a Brexit parallel here. Get a grip on wooly liberal treatment of criminal justice or before long you’ll see an insurgent political campaign take things far further then they otherwise would do.
    But it's also a lot more complex than simply assuming that harsher sentences are the sole solution.

    Around the world there seems to be bugger all correlation between harshness of criminal justice systems, and amount of crime. Punishments in the US are far greater than in the UK, there's the death penalty, and Guantanemo Bay... and it doesn't seem to have made either murders or terrorist incidents less common.

    So, you need to be careful that you're not just making yourself feel better without actually improving outcomes.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,775
    Why is a terrorism death more tragic than a road accident?

    It seems to me that both are equally tragic. We wouldn't dream of curtailing civil liberties to reduce road deaths by two per year. Yet here we are.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    edited November 2019
    Momentum wants Labour to win.
    Inside Momentum's data-driven march to put Corbyn in Number 10
    The pro-Corbyn group has spent two years honing its campaigning technology. Will it be enough to make Corbyn prime minister?

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/momentum-labour-party-my-campaign-map
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    I do find the British psyche towards capital punishment interesting. Most people think that taking out Al Baghdadi and Bin Laden was great news. Most people would not want the police from yesterday to be hounded for shooting dead this terrorist, despite the vest turning out to be fake.
    But yet any escalation from “throw away the key” for violent murderers and terrorists gets you called all sorts. Witness the grief Priti Patel still gets from polite society for her one-off comment years ago that she broadly supported capital punishment.
    It astonishes me to hear someone could have plotted a bomb attack and be out of jail at all, yet alone after 6 years.
    Perhaps some of the worst terrorists can be successfully rehabilitated. But really who cares. Society should grant each member one chance to behave like a civilised human and that’s it. Screw this turn the other cheek, rehabilitation and forgiveness routine.

    See section 79 on page 22, in which the attacker had his indeterminate sentence reduced by the court of appeal to a 16 year one, (which actually meant 6 years in practice).
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-usman-khan-others.pdf
    16 years = 6 years in practice? Oh that’s ok then. For plotting to build a terror training camp and blow up the stock exchange.
    It will upset people to hear but I do see a Brexit parallel here. Get a grip on wooly liberal treatment of criminal justice or before long you’ll see an insurgent political campaign take things far further then they otherwise would do.
    But it's also a lot more complex than simply assuming that harsher sentences are the sole solution.

    Around the world there seems to be bugger all correlation between harshness of criminal justice systems, and amount of crime. Punishments in the US are far greater than in the UK, there's the death penalty, and Guantanemo Bay... and it doesn't seem to have made either murders or terrorist incidents less common.

    So, you need to be careful that you're not just making yourself feel better without actually improving outcomes.
    There are countries other than the US which have both the death penalty and a more successful outcome in combating extremism and terrorism.

    Really though, you’re right, it’s also about vengeance. And there’s nothing wrong with me admitting that.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    edited November 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    Why is a terrorism death more tragic than a road accident?

    It seems to me that both are equally tragic. We wouldn't dream of curtailing civil liberties to reduce road deaths by two per year. Yet here we are.

    Cars were there before the trend for zealous government regulation. We stop all sorts of less dangerous but newer activity. If/when self driving cars gets cracked, human drivers will be limited to private tracks before you can blink.

    Road deaths are by their very nature “accidents”. I do not agree that an accident is on the same spectrum as premeditated violence/murder but can see why others might.
  • Sotheby's has an online auction of Scarfe caricatures. Buy your loved one Theresa May for Christmas.
    https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2019/scarfe-at-sothebys-sixty-years-of-being-rude
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Momentum wants Labour to win.
    Inside Momentum's data-driven march to put Corbyn in Number 10
    The pro-Corbyn group has spent two years honing its campaigning technology. Will it be enough to make Corbyn prime minister?

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/momentum-labour-party-my-campaign-map

    Apparently Momentum have been campaigning in seats like Altrincham and Sale West where the Tories have a 6,500 majority.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    Why is a terrorism death more tragic than a road accident?

    It seems to me that both are equally tragic. We wouldn't dream of curtailing civil liberties to reduce road deaths by two per year. Yet here we are.

    It just is. It's interesting that the word you use is "tragic;" think how well any of the great tragedies would work if Clytemnestra, Oedipus, Macbeth and so on killed their victims by careless driving. Your question would make sense only to a visitor from the planet Tharg with a seriously naive utilitarian theory of human morality.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288

    Momentum wants Labour to win.
    Inside Momentum's data-driven march to put Corbyn in Number 10
    The pro-Corbyn group has spent two years honing its campaigning technology. Will it be enough to make Corbyn prime minister?

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/momentum-labour-party-my-campaign-map

    Bloody hell, Momentum wants Labour to win, who'd have thunk it?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Momentum wants Labour to win.
    Inside Momentum's data-driven march to put Corbyn in Number 10
    The pro-Corbyn group has spent two years honing its campaigning technology. Will it be enough to make Corbyn prime minister?

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/momentum-labour-party-my-campaign-map

    Apparently Momentum have been campaigning in seats like Altrincham and Sale West where the Tories have a 6,500 majority.
    Without looking at a map, I'd guess parties need to send activists to seats within easy travelling distances. The Conservative Party got into hot water for bussing activists round the country and breaking spending limits on hotel bills, though as hard as I try, I cannot recall any MPs being disqualified, so cynics would take the view it is worth breaking the rules.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    NEW THREAD
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