Casino .. I'm actually making a pretty important point, borne from a lifetime working with and living amongst religious communities, including Jewish ones.
Your snide one-liners aren't cool.
My point is one I'd encourage a few folk to reflect on. It came to me years ago when I was with Jewish Israelis. Need to put that because not all Israelis are Jewish and not all Jewish Israelis consider themselves to be practising Jews. Indeed, the first re-settlements in the Palestinian lands were by left-wing secular Jews - the Zionist movement of the C19th was not 'religious' per se. Hence, the Marxist foundations of the Moshavs and Kibbutz (affectionately called Kibbutzniks because of their socialist leanings). This partly explains the visceral disquiet about Labour's antisemitic ambivalence. For all the right wing pro capitalist elements within 'Judaism' there is also a prominent vein of left-wing zionism.
So the point is this. Don't make yourselves out to be a special case. Don't. Don't. Don't. It's the very thing which stoked the fires of antisemitic racism at the turn of the C20th. This was a lesson drilled home to me ... by Israelis.
Yes, there's a problem with antisemitism within Labour. But, it would be much wiser for Jewish leaders to enfold that within the general subject of growing intolerance including homophobia and racism, and including Islamophobia.
Last post from me on the topic ^^^. Disregard everything else I ever write but listen to me on this. I know my onions.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only. We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe. Another badly hung parliament.
I still say a Labour thrashing with all the Cabinet losing their seats as well is the optimal outcome.
Is it me or is +15 in deepest Remania not really that impressive when the only Lib Dem policy that has had any kind of break through in this election so far is revoke? I would honestly have expected the gap between Swinson and the Brexit leaver in chief to be larger which suggests even in Remania there are a number of other factors at play in this election.
Did we just get ICM today? I can do that when I get to my laptop - has been a very busy day.
Yes, ICM was the only national poll today - with the lead down to 7%. There was also a YouGov Wales only poll - so not relevant for your graph. That had a 4.5% swing implying a 11.5% national lead if same swing across whole UK.
Here you go. No significant movement since it's averaging the last five or so polls.
This is a great resource and if I am reading the second chart correctly Boris, for the first time, is doing significantly better than May17. Until pretty much this point May had bigger leads than Boris has had but her lead was declining fast and has now crossed Boris's line which is holding pretty steady. Of course this may change if ICM proves the start of a new trend but right now Boris is ahead.
I think I have amply demonstrated my post above. We have Labour supporters accusing others of racism while trying to ignore Corbyn’s own racist past, quoting from Der Sturmer (possibly accidentally as the poster in question admits to being rather dim) and pretending it’s all a few bad apples when any fool can see this goes to the top of the party. It is disturbing and very sad to see what Labour has become. Come on Liberal Democrats. Give us a late surge and restore sanity to politics. Even though you’re still bastards for standing down in Cannock Chase. Have a good morning.
How long do historical legacies last? If we should feel guilty for the Empire, should we feel far more proud because of our more recent role in WWII and being on the right side in the Cold War? Should we be glad that we used our military might to end the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and spent a fortune to do so [I believe the final debt for Empire-wide freeing of slaves was only repaid a decade or two ago]?
Should Africans feel bad because of their role, which existed before the British arrived, in enslaving other Africans? Should we teach more about Barbary pirates? Or the Harrowing of the North?
Slavery was part of British history (indeed, going back to Viking and Anglo-Saxon times, and earlier) and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. We also shouldn't pretend its unique to us or something for which current generations should be punished or made to feel guilty.
History shouldn't be viewed through tinted glasses. Corbyn's no friend of Britain, and it's no surprise he wants to add a negative aspect to our education system.
Morning all and an interesting comparison thanks to OGH. What I take from reading it is that the opinion on Boris Johnson is pretty much the same across the country (with perhaps the exception of Scotland and other parts of the "Celtic fringe") his GB ratings at -11 and London at -13 clearly in margin of error territory. However those for the leaders of the 2 remain parties vary hugely. Does this point to a collapse of Labour support in the capital and how much further can the Liberals squeeze the Labour vote? That may hold the answer to the result in several London seats. A couple of Tory losses to the Liberals and half a dozen Tory gains from Labour would be seen as a good night for Team Tory, just like holding 10 or more Scottish seats with the possible gain or two and holding the Welsh seats with a gain or two. If Boris can do that and gain a handful of seats in each of the West and East Midlands, Yorkshire, Humber and the North west and job done, a reasonable majority.
Are you comfortable with the fact that a significant minority group is that scared of your preferred party winning the election?
Again, I think we're missing the point here. Current Labour supporters have a very Manichaean view of the world. They are good, and therefore what they do is right. Everyone else is wrong, therefore what they do is bad. Therefore, such things as their leader and his general secretary being a pair of racists who have made it perfectly acceptable to use the Labour Party apparatus to hound Jews doesn't matter because they are Labour. Meanwhile Boris Johnson making racist remarks about - well, just about everyone, tbf - is seriously wrong because he's Boris Johnson. This simple view of the world also explains why they don't understand the intense dislike they get from everyone else. They are good so why are they hated? It does not seem to occur to them that perhaps the reason is that it's because they are not good. So in answer to your question, it won't bother them because they genuinely don't believe it to be true, regardless of awkward things like actual evidence. Again, we have seen this on the last two threads.
That’s a interesting - and quite possibly accurate - response. I was rather hoping @Mysticrose would answer but s/he has disappeared
I have responded below.
I expect much of what I post on here is intellectually low grade. The one on Jewish communities isn't. It's subtle but really important.
It also misses the point.
Muslims are not afraid to live in the U.K. (and there is a tendency to try and conflate legitimate criticism of radical Islamists with an on Muslims as a group)
Jewish leaders may be taking a suboptimal approach (and I have occasionally criticised the Israeli government for doing just that) but I can understand given their history
Jews are scared, as a group, of Labour winning. That is an indictment of the party.
Is it me or is +15 in deepest Remania not really that impressive when the only Lib Dem policy that has had any kind of break through in this election so far is revoke? I would honestly have expected the gap between Swinson and the Brexit leaver in chief to be larger which suggests even in Remania there are a number of other factors at play in this election.
And minus 13 isn't too bad in this demographic for Boz. But look at Jeremy!
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
You are always asked something you can't answer when canvassing / leafletting. Real question, can someone help.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
You can find your National Insurance number on your payslip, P60, or letters about tax, pensions and benefits. You can also find it through your personal tax account and download a confirmation letter.
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Admittedly speaking as an (exiled) dripping wet, former Labour supporting, North London metropolitan liberal elitist myself, I have always struggled to understand the visceral hatred of Swinson on here. Sure, you don’t have to like her if you’re not a Lib Dem, but the depth of the reaction has spoken to something deeper to my eye.
I like her. Think she's okay.
I'm not 100% sure she'd made a great PM, but I know she'd be better than both the current incumbant, and the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition.
Admittedly speaking as an (exiled) dripping wet, former Labour supporting, North London metropolitan liberal elitist myself, I have always struggled to understand the visceral hatred of Swinson on here. Sure, you don’t have to like her if you’re not a Lib Dem, but the depth of the reaction has spoken to something deeper to my eye.
Do we have comparable stats on Mrs Thatcher's ratings four months after her Feb 1975 election as Tory leader? There's a deep-rooted misogyny in Britain (ESPECIALLY among a certain kind of Tory woman) that all prominent female politicians - from Barbara Castle to Teresa May - have had to fight.
But in my rural outpost of metropolitan liberal - and Liberal - elitism, it's common on the doorstep to hear from wavering LDs, Greens, Tories and former Labour voters "I'm an immense fan of Jo Swinson, but... (insert "Article 50", "frightened of letting Corbyn/Johnson in", "need faster action on climate", "still can't forgive the Coalition"). There's no one simple answer to the many reasons well-disposed anti-Brexiteers in once-safe Tory or Labour seats have for worrying about voting for us - and it may take two or even three elections to bring many over.
Right now Swinson's not a problem: she's just Marmite. But she's also got the balls to manage the post-Dec 12 negotiations and help stop Johnson and Corbyn mismanaging two once-serious major parties.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
Mr. Gate, think it's a bit odd to feel proud on a collective basis as well. I'm glad of our role in the Second World War but personally had nothing to do with it. Labour's plan to throw billions to people who were never slaves, paid by people who never had slaves, and now to bang on about one negative part of Britain's history (far from unique to us), does look a teeny bit like a pattern from a party led by a man yet to be accused of excessive patriotism.
You are always asked something you can't answer when canvassing / leafletting. Real question, can someone help.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
You can find your National Insurance number on your payslip, P60, or letters about tax, pensions and benefits. You can also find it through your personal tax account and download a confirmation letter.
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Yes, thanks for that - but this person who has left school and is working on the family farm seems not to have been registered to vote for some reason and needs the NI number today to register to vote. I thought his NI number would be held by his doctor ??
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
You mean they are not trying to gain seats in say Wolverhampton any more, or are you just talking about Greater London?
The uber rabbis intervention will likely most impact undecideds, convincing some that labour cannot be voted for. Labour 2017 have a lot of undecideds still according to yougov. This might make some stay home or go to BXP or the LDs
Lead story on the BBC this morning. But TBH for all the reasons I gave last night - and Labour's supporters graphically demonstrated on the last thread and again on this one - it isn't likely to have much effect on anyone. Anyone considering voting for Corbyn simply doesn't care about his record on race relations.
It won’t, but if we’re going to talk about the campaign politics of this then its main effect will be to deny a 24-hr news cycle to something else, like WASPI women.
So it’s another day of campaign momentum lost to Labour.
That said they do seem to have planned to go today with how ghastly the British empire was, which I’m sure animates the momentum base but I can’t see is decisive for firming up voting support like bungs are.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Lol. The Empire was our greatest achievement.
I’m proud of its role in spreading liberal democracy and the rule of law, and it’s true legacy is in the positive role the Commonwealth plays today.
I shudder to think what the world would have been like without the British Empire - no USA, no Canada, no multiracial democracy in South Africa, no large democracy in India, nothing in Hong Kong.. And we were instrumental in stamping out the slave trade in the 19thC too.
Your historical revisionism is as bias as it is disgraceful.
You are always asked something you can't answer when canvassing / leafletting. Real question, can someone help.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
You can find your National Insurance number on your payslip, P60, or letters about tax, pensions and benefits. You can also find it through your personal tax account and download a confirmation letter.
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Yes, thanks for that - but this person who has left school and is working on the family farm seems not to have been registered to vote for some reason and needs the NI number today to register to vote. I thought his NI number would be held by his doctor ??
I don’t know, but I doubt it. The NHS works off DOB and hospital/patient numbers. Foxy might know.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Whilst you’re right that the British Empire was nothing to be proud of, it does not mean Labour dealing with anti-semitism and anti-semitism apologism within their membership should not be held to account
The Empire made a decisive and positive contribution to the course of future human history.
The uber rabbis intervention will likely most impact undecideds, convincing some that labour cannot be voted for. Labour 2017 have a lot of undecideds still according to yougov. This might make some stay home or go to BXP or the LDs
Lead story on the BBC this morning. But TBH for all the reasons I gave last night - and Labour's supporters graphically demonstrated on the last thread and again on this one - it isn't likely to have much effect on anyone. Anyone considering voting for Corbyn simply doesn't care about his record on race relations.
It won’t, but if we’re going to talk about the campaign politics of this then its main effect will be to deny a 24-hr news cycle to something else, like WASPI women.
So it’s another day of campaign momentum lost to Labour.
That said they do seem to have planned to go today with how ghastly the British empire was, which I’m sure animates the momentum base but I can’t see is decisive for firming up voting support like bungs are.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Lol. The Empire was our greatest achievement.
I’m proud of its role in spreading liberal democracy and the rule of law, and it’s true legacy is in the positive role the Commonwealth plays today.
I shudder to think what the world would have been like without the British Empire - no USA, no Canada, no multiracial democracy in South Africa, no large democracy in India, nothing in Hong Kong.. And we were instrumental in stamping out the slave trade in the 19thC too.
Your historical revisionism is as bias as it is disgraceful.
The industrial revolution was our greatest achievement. The Empire was largely a by-product of that. Without the Empire, there would have been more indigenous peoples in more parts of the world and less Parliamentary democracy.
Did we just get ICM today? I can do that when I get to my laptop - has been a very busy day.
Yes, ICM was the only national poll today - with the lead down to 7%. There was also a YouGov Wales only poll - so not relevant for your graph. That had a 4.5% swing implying a 11.5% national lead if same swing across whole UK.
Here you go. No significant movement since it's averaging the last five or so polls.
This is a great resource and if I am reading the second chart correctly Boris, for the first time, is doing significantly better than May17. Until pretty much this point May had bigger leads than Boris has had but her lead was declining fast and has now crossed Boris's line which is holding pretty steady. Of course this may change if ICM proves the start of a new trend but right now Boris is ahead.
Yes you're right, Boris is doing significantly better.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
I have a feeling the LibDem London surge could deliver the Tories a seat or two. Hampstead and Kilburn springs to mind.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
Even Kensington?
Figures dont look good there..had a cabinet minister say to me last week that Conservative voters were deserting the party in droves in Kensington..its not pretty.
You are always asked something you can't answer when canvassing / leafletting. Real question, can someone help.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
You can find your National Insurance number on your payslip, P60, or letters about tax, pensions and benefits. You can also find it through your personal tax account and download a confirmation letter.
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Yes, thanks for that - but this person who has left school and is working on the family farm seems not to have been registered to vote for some reason and needs the NI number today to register to vote. I thought his NI number would be held by his doctor ??
I don’t know, but I doubt it. The NHS works off DOB and hospital/patient numbers. Foxy might know.
Whoever employs and pays him ought to know.
NO The NI No and the NHS no are completely different things.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
You mean they are not trying to gain seats in say Wolverhampton any more, or are you just talking about
You are always asked something you can't answer when canvassing / leafletting. Real question, can someone help.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
You can find your National Insurance number on your payslip, P60, or letters about tax, pensions and benefits. You can also find it through your personal tax account and download a confirmation letter.
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Yes, thanks for that - but this person who has left school and is working on the family farm seems not to have been registered to vote for some reason and needs the NI number today to register to vote. I thought his NI number would be held by his doctor ??
I don’t know, but I doubt it. The NHS works off DOB and hospital/patient numbers. Foxy might know.
Whoever employs and pays him ought to know.
It should be on his payslip. AFAICR, its a legal requirement
The uber rabbis intervention will likely most impact undecideds, convincing some that labour cannot be voted for. Labour 2017 have a lot of undecideds still according to yougov. This might make some stay home or go to BXP or the LDs
I'm sceptical that the BXP potential among orthodox Jews is much above 0%.
Just a little thought which will no doubt get shot down in flames.
Environmental issues are the obsession of the under 25s and the Guardian reading, Jesus sandal brigade. Most sane people over the age of 25 realise that global warming will only be restricted if there is a major change of attitude in Washington, Moscow, Beijing and Brasilia. What we are doing in the UK is good but merely tinkering at the edges and would be instantly undone by a decent sized volcanic eruption somewhere in Iceland or Indonesia.
The Labour, Liberal and Green parties are all fishing in the same pond for the same section of the voting community, the one which traditionally has the lowest turnout. The generation which recycles its sweaty socks and thinks nothing of eating via deliveroo and its idea of exercise is pressing buttons on a mobile phone to hail an Uber cab (while they are still licensed). There could be quite a bit of churn in London seats and equally it could be like Scotland in 2010, nothing to see here!
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Bad things happening hundreds of years ago are probably not the best shield for the anti-Semites in Labour today.
The point is that the legacy of empire is still with us. The fact that people here either belittle that or claim that the empire is a source of pride is pretty revealing.
Admittedly speaking as an (exiled) dripping wet, former Labour supporting, North London metropolitan liberal elitist myself, I have always struggled to understand the visceral hatred of Swinson on here. Sure, you don’t have to like her if you’re not a Lib Dem, but the depth of the reaction has spoken to something deeper to my eye.
I don't understand it either. But I have a number of neutral friends who also find her a bit irritating / inexperienced.
As someone that voted Charlie Kennedy and was a touch morose when Clegg lost his seat, I can confirm she comes across as both irritating and inexperienced. Are there people that have visceral hatred for her? That's a bit strong. Perhaps it's because she's patently not up to the task of wrenching the second party mantle from the Commies. Which I dare say is something that is wanted by as much as two thirds of the electorate.
Jo isn't perfect, but what politician is?
I think that we do have to bear in mind that there wasn't a very large pool to fish in for candidates, with just 12 MPs to choose from and several of those only elected in 2017.
I think she is doing fine, as the header shows, in target seats, but clearly isn't going to be winning over Leavers.
I think she will grow into the role, particularly if a further increase in parliamentary party comes out of the GE. 20 is the minimum target for me, 30 or more would be a good night, particularly if we have NOC.
In the latter case, I would have Davey as chief negotiator. He is good in that sort of negotiation.
I wonder if there will be a shy Labour vote on the day. Historically the expression has been "the left thinks the right are evil, the right just thinks the left are stupid", and it has been more socially acceptable to vote Labour than Tory. Now, Labour's reputation has suffered heavily, and there is equal amounts of judgement and scorn from Tories to those voting Labour as there is the other way around. Depending on your area, you may prefer to keep quiet about true voting intention.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Bad things happening hundreds of years ago are probably not the best shield for the anti-Semites in Labour today.
The point is that the legacy of empire is still with us. The fact that people here either belittle that or claim that the empire is a source of pride is pretty revealing.
Yes the legacy of Empire which includes abolishing the slave trade, the spread of democracy etc is still with us. Thankfully.
I do not want to see a return to the slave trade etc which existed pre Empire. Do you?
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Whilst you’re right that the British Empire was nothing to be proud of, it does not mean Labour dealing with anti-semitism and anti-semitism apologism within their membership should not be held to account
If you thought I was saying that then I was obviously not clear enough. Anti Semitism is evil and a stain on the Labour party. The leadership was far too slow to recognise the problem and to deal with it. The Jewish community is right to be concerned. But I don't believe Labour is a threat to any minority group in Britain, and I believe that comparing the policy positions of Labour and the Conservatives reveals this. After all, it was the Tories who have made it possible to strip any Briton with a hypothetical right to a second passport (including almost any British Jew) of their British citizenship on the whim of the Home Secretary. It was the Tories who created the hostile environment policy. All I ask is that the two parties and their records are treated even handedly in the media, and that is simply not happening.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
That chimes with what I'm hearing out of CCHQ who are now running a defense operation in most london held seats..they have given up.on trying to gain seats in the metropolitan areas.
Even Kensington?
Figures dont look good there..had a cabinet minister say to me last week that Conservative voters were deserting the party in droves in Kensington..its not pretty.
It really is like there are two elections going on. The nationwide headline figures show either a comfortable Tory win or a Tory landslide. The regional figures show both Lab>LD and Con>LD swings not reflected in the national figures. In my own seat of Stockton South I've been shown an electoral calculus projection that shows LibDems jumping from a few hundred votes last time to 5,500.
Just a little thought which will no doubt get shot down in flames.
Environmental issues are the obsession of the under 25s and the Guardian reading, Jesus sandal brigade. Most sane people over the age of 25 realise that global warming will only be restricted if there is a major change of attitude in Washington, Moscow, Beijing and Brasilia. What we are doing in the UK is good but merely tinkering at the edges and would be instantly undone by a decent sized volcanic eruption somewhere in Iceland or Indonesia.
The Labour, Liberal and Green parties are all fishing in the same pond for the same section of the voting community, the one which traditionally has the lowest turnout. The generation which recycles its sweaty socks and thinks nothing of eating via deliveroo and its idea of exercise is pressing buttons on a mobile phone to hail an Uber cab (while they are still licensed). There could be quite a bit of churn in London seats and equally it could be like Scotland in 2010, nothing to see here!
I for one don't agree. I am in my late 50s and the environment is very important to me, increasingly so. I think that our government actually has a pretty good story to tell on this. The growth of wind power, solar and other renewables in this country over the last decade is remarkable. Our almost elimination of coal as a power source is welcome too. But I am frustrated at the lack of urgency in relation to transport. The timescales for introducing electric vehicles into our cities are not nearly ambitious enough. I think that future generations will think that having diesels belch out their particulates in our cities seems every bit as remarkable as the smogs of previous generations do to us. I think that our foreign aid should be largely directed at helping poorer countries reduce their carbon footprint by assisting them in installing clean technologies. There is quite a bit more we can do.
Is it me or is +15 in deepest Remania not really that impressive when the only Lib Dem policy that has had any kind of break through in this election so far is revoke? I would honestly have expected the gap between Swinson and the Brexit leaver in chief to be larger which suggests even in Remania there are a number of other factors at play in this election.
There are only two choices in this election. For a Johnson government or against. Which opposition party you have to vote for to prevent Johnson is something voters will work out but it doesn't really matter. Heseltine has led the way. He's voting against Johnson knowing Corbyn will never be a functioning PM. Hopefully millions of Remainers will do the same
You are always asked something you can't answer when canvassing / leafletting. Real question, can someone help.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
You can find your National Insurance number on your payslip, P60, or letters about tax, pensions and benefits. You can also find it through your personal tax account and download a confirmation letter.
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions) HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Yes, thanks for that - but this person who has left school and is working on the family farm seems not to have been registered to vote for some reason and needs the NI number today to register to vote. I thought his NI number would be held by his doctor ??
I don’t know, but I doubt it. The NHS works off DOB and hospital/patient numbers. Foxy might know.
Whoever employs and pays him ought to know.
NHS numbers, not NI.
Fox jr registered online in his new constituency, and autofill did his NI number. I am not sure if this was via his own system or the governments.
It may have been the governments autofill as he was registered here in Leics.
He is usually apolitical, but was rather impressed when he met his MP out canvassing, and will be voting Lab I think.
Muslims are not afraid to live in the U.K. (and there is a tendency to try and conflate legitimate criticism of radical Islamists with an on Muslims as a group)
This is not altogether true. I have several Muslim friends in the Nottingham area who simply put up with regular low-level aggression - strangers shouting "jokey aggression" ("Where's your turban, Paki?" was one confused one). One used to have a restaurant in Ilkeston - he gave it up because he came to expect nastiness every couple of days, as well as actual violence - his wondows were smashed twice.
I don't know any who are considering emigration. But they feel that a state of permanent low-level alarm is sadly something they have to live with. I'm not sure that people in comfortable areas really realise this.
The average before this poll was Con 43, Lab 30. This poll is Con 43, Lab 32, so it'll move the Labour share up slightly without altering the Tory one.
Perhaps it's because she's [Swinson's] patently not up to the task of wrenching the second party mantle from the Commies. Which I dare say is something that is wanted by as much as two thirds of the electorate.
No single leader can transform a party, and the attitudes towards it of 15 million voters, within 4 months of getting elected leader.
It took Blair three years and the previous work of Kinnock and Smith. It took Wilson two years and most of Gaitskell's leadership. It took Attlee an entire World War. And it took Thatcher four years - and then two years of bumbling once in office..
The delusion that you need Strong Leaders leads either to the autocracy of Lenin and Hitler, or the shambolic incoherence of Trump's America. In functioning parliamentary democracies (which Britain still is) a leader has to lead.
The real test for Swinson is whether her team shows enough nimbleness over the next two weeks of campaigning to become king-makers - and enough steeliness on and after Dec 13 to rid us of Corbyn and Johnson.
"Wrenching mantles" can wait till the election after the successful 2020 referendum
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Bad things happening hundreds of years ago are probably not the best shield for the anti-Semites in Labour today.
The point is that the legacy of empire is still with us. The fact that people here either belittle that or claim that the empire is a source of pride is pretty revealing.
Yes the legacy of Empire which includes abolishing the slave trade, the spread of democracy etc is still with us. Thankfully.
I do not want to see a return to the slave trade etc which existed pre Empire. Do you?
The slave trade was arguably the greatest crime in human history, and the British were one of the biggest players and beneficiaries. Yes, we helped to abolish it, but only after we had benefited from it for hundreds of years and only when it was becoming less profitable, in part thanks to the bravery of the enslaved people whose constant revolts were draining the business of its profits and slowly awakening the conscience of people in Britain. And even when we abolished it, we compensated the fucking slave owners! And yet people here are proud of this whole history of bloodshed and plunder. Incredible.
The average before this poll was Con 43, Lab 30. This poll is Con 43, Lab 32, so it'll move the Labour share up slightly without altering the Tory one.
Kantar tends to be a bit wild. The swingback is probably exaggerated. I'd want to see another poll before I start to think something is happening.
Interesting. Kantar still showing a winning lead but down. Suggests there definitely is a bit of a trend developing.
Don’t think anyone should panic at an 11 point lead but goes to show the Tories can’t be complacent.
There's no trend developing in terms of the Tory share. Their average share in the polls hasn't been above 43% at any stage and this poll has them on 43%. Labour are up a bit at the expense of the LDs.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Bad things happening hundreds of years ago are probably not the best shield for the anti-Semites in Labour today.
The point is that the legacy of empire is still with us. The fact that people here either belittle that or claim that the empire is a source of pride is pretty revealing.
Yes the legacy of Empire which includes abolishing the slave trade, the spread of democracy etc is still with us. Thankfully.
I do not want to see a return to the slave trade etc which existed pre Empire. Do you?
Britain ending the slave trade is the same level of claim as claiming that Hitler brought peace to Europe by shooting himself in the face. True but incomplete.
The slave trade was a key factor in how Britain industrialised, where else did all that cotton milling in Lancs come from? Ditto a lot of the iron mongering in the Black Country.
There is plenty of more recent toxic history of the Empire, much within living memory.
I never cease to be amazed at the angst of people whose only connection to slavery is watching Roots. Within the UK the slave trade was the preserve of the Scots and some merchants in Bristol and Liverpool. It is no coincidence that almost all the plantations in Jamaica were named after the towns and villages along the Moray Firth coast within 50 miles of North Cadboll. They were run by Highland Scots.
This year I have had visits from 3 sets of cousins descended from unions between Highland Scottish sons of Lairds and a black female slave or freed former slave. I have also had contact from 3 more in Jamaica whom I haven't yet met. They are totally matter of fact about how they come to be who they are. They have no chips on their shoulders or feel wronged or hard done by. Like me they are just delighted to have made contact with a new cousin who can shed light on a large part of their past. From my point of view they are simply cousins and along with all my other Sutherland cousins, am delighted to have them as part of the family. The fact that 200 years ago a sibling of one of my ancestors was the owner of plantations in the West Indies is a part of history. Not a particularly proud part of our family history but no less or more part of my history than the fact I wouldn't be here if David I hadn't asked an ancestor to go up to the Moray Firth and butcher anyone who refused to accept his authority or another Sir John de Menteith who captured William Wallace and handed him over to another ancestor Edward I for punishment. The main beneficiary - yet another ancestor Robert the Bruce. History is history and we cannot impose 21st century notions of decency on the past. What does Corbyn want to do next - offer compensation to the families of all the boy chimney sweeps forced to climb up the inside of chimneys in large houses like the one Corbyn himself grew up in!
Agree with OGH that while Boris has a clear lead in Leave seats and the Tories will gain seats in Labour Leave areas, in Remain areas the LDs are preferred so could pick up seats like Richmond Park, Cheltenham, Finchley and Golders Green, Wimbledon and Cities of London and Westminster helped by Labour tactical voting to beat the Tories. (Though the Brexit Party standing down in Tory seats will keep the Leave vote blue).
Lord Heseltine was also on Good Morning Britain this morning urging voters to vote LD to get a second EU referendum much as Tony Blair was yesterday where Labour were not in contention. Heseltine also said Brexit would lead to permanent economic decline for Britain
45/27 last week from Kabyle did appear to be a bit of an outlier as was the 19 point lead at the weekend by another pollster which should naturally see swing to Labour with its next poll too.
Barring ICM there seems to be a herding around 11 point lead. This is bang on target and the Welsh poll yesterday was also comparable to an 11 point lead in its swing.
Quotes in grey are a pain in the arse to read on mobile, where font size is already pretty small. A poor accessibility choice (and my eyes are still pretty good!)
Interesting. Kantar still showing a winning lead but down. Suggests there definitely is a bit of a trend developing.
Don’t think anyone should panic at an 11 point lead but goes to show the Tories can’t be complacent.
There's no trend developing in terms of the Tory share. Their average share in the polls hasn't been above 43% at any stage and this poll has them on 43%. Labour are up a bit at the expense of the LDs.
I don't think that establishing trend by comparing one poll with an average of other polls conducted earlier and with differing methodologies is statistically valid?
All we can look at is the like-for-like with Kantar (Lab +5, Con -2, LD -2) and then consider the possibility of random error.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Bad things happening hundreds of years ago are probably not the best shield for the anti-Semites in Labour today.
The point is that the legacy of empire is still with us. The fact that people here either belittle that or claim that the empire is a source of pride is pretty revealing.
Yes the legacy of Empire which includes abolishing the slave trade, the spread of democracy etc is still with us. Thankfully.
I do not want to see a return to the slave trade etc which existed pre Empire. Do you?
The slave trade was arguably the greatest crime in human history, and the British were one of the biggest players and beneficiaries. Yes, we helped to abolish it, but only after we had benefited from it for hundreds of years and only when it was becoming less profitable, in part thanks to the bravery of the enslaved people whose constant revolts were draining the business of its profits and slowly awakening the conscience of people in Britain. And even when we abolished it, we compensated the fucking slave owners! And yet people here are proud of this whole history of bloodshed and plunder. Incredible.
You don't know your history.
The slave trade is as old as humanity. We didn't start the fire to quote Billy Joel it existed for thousands of years. It is as old as recorded human history.
Quotes in grey are a pain in the arse to read on mobile, where font size is already pretty small. A poor accessibility choice (and my eyes are still pretty good!)
At least it stops after four embeds, rather than proceeding through to a black background
Casino .. I'm actually making a pretty important point, borne from a lifetime working with and living amongst religious communities, including Jewish ones.
Your snide one-liners aren't cool.
My point is one I'd encourage a few folk to reflect on. It came to me years ago when I was with Jewish Israelis. Need to put that because not all Israelis are Jewish and not all Jewish Israelis consider themselves to be practising Jews. Indeed, the first re-settlements in the Palestinian lands were by left-wing secular Jews - the Zionist movement of the C19th was not 'religious' per se. Hence, the Marxist foundations of the Moshavs and Kibbutz (affectionately called Kibbutzniks because of their socialist leanings). This partly explains the visceral disquiet about Labour's antisemitic ambivalence. For all the right wing pro capitalist elements within 'Judaism' there is also a prominent vein of left-wing zionism.
So the point is this. Don't make yourselves out to be a special case. Don't. Don't. Don't. It's the very thing which stoked the fires of antisemitic racism at the turn of the C20th. This was a lesson drilled home to me ... by Israelis.
Yes, there's a problem with antisemitism within Labour. But, it would be much wiser for Jewish leaders to enfold that within the general subject of growing intolerance including homophobia and racism, and including Islamophobia.
Last post from me on the topic ^^^. Disregard everything else I ever write but listen to me on this. I know my onions.
"Intellectually low grade" doesn't even begin to describe this nonsense. I don't know what your Jewish and/or Israeli friends said to you about anti-Semitism, but I'm pretty positive you didn't understand a single word.
LDs down 2% to 14%, Labour up 2% to 32% Tories unchanged on 43%.
So only movement LD to Labour which makes little difference to Tory majority chances as it just means they will hold a few more seats from the LDs but fail to win so many from Labour
Labour are up 5 points not 2 . They were on 27 in the previous one.
At the same point in 2017 Kantar had Labour only 8 points behind. Tories will be happy about the solid vote share. I imagine Labour will climb above 35 but I reckon they will need at least 37 for a hung parliament So it’s all touch and go.
LDs down 2% to 14%, Labour up 2% to 32% Tories unchanged on 43%.
So only movement LD to Labour which makes little difference to Tory majority chances as it just means they will hold a few more seats from the LDs but fail to win so many from Labour
Labour are up 5 points not 2 . They were on 27 in the previous one.
Once again he posts first and thinks (and actually reads the article) afterwards
LDs down 2% to 14%, Labour up 2% to 32% Tories unchanged on 43%.
So only movement LD to Labour which makes little difference to Tory majority chances as it just means they will hold a few more seats from the LDs but fail to win so many from Labour
Labour are up 5 points not 2 . They were on 27 in the previous one.
The previous Kantar was probably an outlier in favour of the Tories. We've had some outliers in the other direction as well.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
I am campaigning in Chingford every weekend for IDS but will be in Enfield Southgate on the final Sunday to help David Burrowes regain the seat
Agree with OGH that while Boris has a clear lead in Leave seats and the Tories will gain seats in Labour Leave areas, in Remain areas the LDs are preferred so could pick up seats like Richmond Park, Cheltenham, Finchley and Golders Green, Wimbledon and Cities of London and Westminster helped by Labour tactical voting to beat the Tories. (Though the Brexit Party standing down in Tory seats will keep the Leave vote blue).
Lord Heseltine was also on Good Morning Britain this morning urging voters to vote LD to get a second EU referendum much as Tony Blair was yesterday where Labour were not in contention. Heseltine also said Brexit would lead to permanent economic decline for Britain
There are still a great many Tory voters who despise Heseltine for stabbing Margaret Thatcher in the back. As the Hon Alan Clark said "how can one trust a man who has to buy his own furniture" I hope Heseltine and co are now expelled from the Tory party. We don't want or need them.
Agree with OGH that while Boris has a clear lead in Leave seats and the Tories will gain seats in Labour Leave areas, in Remain areas the LDs are preferred so could pick up seats like Richmond Park, Cheltenham, Finchley and Golders Green, Wimbledon and Cities of London and Westminster helped by Labour tactical voting to beat the Tories. (Though the Brexit Party standing down in Tory seats will keep the Leave vote blue).
Lord Heseltine was also on Good Morning Britain this morning urging voters to vote LD to get a second EU referendum much as Tony Blair was yesterday where Labour were not in contention. Heseltine also said Brexit would lead to permanent economic decline for Britain
Heseltine is spot on. See his interview with Portillo in 'The Trouble with the Tories' in which he nails the argument for being in the EU in about 90 seconds...it's simply about power, and as someone once memorably said "...there is only power and those too weak to seek it."
I'm struggling to understand Michael Heseltine's reasoning on the Today programme. He said Corbyn cannot possibly become PM, so vote Lib Dem or independent Conservative in order to stop Johnson. But who becomes PM in that case?
The uber rabbis intervention will likely most impact undecideds, convincing some that labour cannot be voted for. Labour 2017 have a lot of undecideds still according to yougov. This might make some stay home or go to BXP or the LDs
I'm sceptical that the BXP potential among orthodox Jews is much above 0%.
You'd be partially right then - there would've been a fair number of Leavers who voted BXP in the Euros, but probably very few who'll risk adding a Labour MP to the next parliament by accident.
Tory share is flatlining at about 43% in recent polls, using the average.
Still a decent lead for the Tories. Corbyn and McDonnell need to shower some more gifts. Writing off all existing student debt must surely be coming soon.
A perfect example of the tone-deaf attitude towards race and racism on this site. You speak mockingly about the British empire being ghastly - but the empire was ghastly, and an explicitly racist enterprise. It gave us the Atlantic slave trade, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine, the scramble for Africa, the partition of India and nurtured ideas of racial superiority at home that still plague us to this day. And yet the same people who are willing to devote days of the election campaign to the issue of anti Semitism just dismiss this toxic legacy of empire like it's some kind of PC joke.
Bad things happening hundreds of years ago are probably not the best shield for the anti-Semites in Labour today.
The point is that the legacy of empire is still with us. The fact that people here either belittle that or claim that the empire is a source of pride is pretty revealing.
Yes the legacy of Empire which includes abolishing the slave trade, the spread of democracy etc is still with us. Thankfully.
I do not want to see a return to the slave trade etc which existed pre Empire. Do you?
The slave trade was arguably the greatest crime in human history, and the British were one of the biggest players and beneficiaries. Yes, we helped to abolish it, but only after we had benefited from it for hundreds of years and only when it was becoming less profitable, in part thanks to the bravery of the enslaved people whose constant revolts were draining the business of its profits and slowly awakening the conscience of people in Britain. And even when we abolished it, we compensated the fucking slave owners! And yet people here are proud of this whole history of bloodshed and plunder. Incredible.
You don't know your history.
The slave trade is as old as humanity. We didn't start the fire to quote Billy Joel it existed for thousands of years. It is as old as recorded human history.
We didn't start it but we did end it.
Er, when did I say that we started it? Or deny that we helped to end it (although I would argue that the slaves who paid with their lives fighting against their British oppressors and hence awoke Britain's conscience and made slavery less profitable were also responsible). You seem very keen to whitewash the two hundred years when we profited hugely from slavery, using its riches to build ourselves into the world's leading commercial and maritime power. I used to live in the Caribbean so I do know quite a lot about slavery, colonialism and the history of the slave trade.
I'm struggling to understand Michael Heseltine's reasoning on the Today programme. He said Corbyn cannot possibly become PM, so vote Lib Dem or independent Conservative in order to stop Johnson. But who becomes PM in that case?
He's clearly fuelled by an irrational hatred of Johnson, a man who has managed what he thought was his birthright - to lead the Conservative Party and be PM.
As a young man he mapped out that path to being PM. That it didn't come about - yet Boris's did - might be because he backed the wrong EU horse.
The average before this poll was Con 43, Lab 30. This poll is Con 43, Lab 32, so it'll move the Labour share up slightly without altering the Tory one.
Putting this Kantar poll into the EMA shows no change in England. The Tories are an extra one up in Scotland (because of increase by Baxter) at 9 seats and two down on previous forecast in Wales (because of recent Wales poll) at 14 seats. Con Lab LD BXP Green PC SNP Total England 316 191 25 0 1 0 0 533 Wales 14 21 1 0 0 4 0 40 Scotland 9 1 5 0 0 0 44 59
If the British Empire was so awful, why are there still so many statutes of British monarchs in Indian cities? They could have knocked them all down 50 or 60 years ago.
I'm struggling to understand Michael Heseltine's reasoning on the Today programme. He said Corbyn cannot possibly become PM, so vote Lib Dem or independent Conservative in order to stop Johnson. But who becomes PM in that case?
Boris if the LDs have the balance of power and abstain, Corbyn if the SNP have the balance of power
I'm struggling to understand Michael Heseltine's reasoning on the Today programme. He said Corbyn cannot possibly become PM, so vote Lib Dem or independent Conservative in order to stop Johnson. But who becomes PM in that case?
Boris if the LDs have the balance of power and abstain, Corbyn if the SNP have the balance of power
So his pitch that Corbyn can't become PM isn't true.
Morning all. The Swinson / Johnson swing in that London demonstrates that UNS will be told to do one in this election. The LibDems will hoover up remain votes in London and our hault won't just be Richmond Park - I do expect Umunna Berger and Gyimah to win their seats. Similarly Labour's decapitation obsession means they are drowning Chingford and Wood Green with Momentum stromtroopers whilst leaving the defence of Enfield Southgate to local activists only.
We are going to see all kinds of surprising results. The late swing in this election may not be the willingness of people publicly to say they'll vote for Corbyn or Swinson. But the temptation to locally tactically vote outside of the main poll headline can already be felt if you dig into reportage from across the country and the number of don't knows and the general plague on all your houses vibe.
Another badly hung parliament.
I am campaigning in Chingford every weekend for IDS but will be in Enfield Southgate on the final Sunday to help David Burrowes regain the seat
Almost everyone seems to think the Tories won't be able to win back Enfield Southgate, but I think it could prove to be one of their easier gains on the night.
I predict something between a small Tory majority and a hung parliament. A Tory majority of more than 20 or 30 is very unlikely I think, and NOM is still a real possibility. The antisemitism issue doesn't cut through with core Labour voters, or probably geographically middle-england voters that much either, and although the timing of this latest barrage on it is immensely useful for the Tories, I don't think that'll be enough in itself to stop some further narrowing.
Comments
Your snide one-liners aren't cool.
My point is one I'd encourage a few folk to reflect on. It came to me years ago when I was with Jewish Israelis. Need to put that because not all Israelis are Jewish and not all Jewish Israelis consider themselves to be practising Jews. Indeed, the first re-settlements in the Palestinian lands were by left-wing secular Jews - the Zionist movement of the C19th was not 'religious' per se. Hence, the Marxist foundations of the Moshavs and Kibbutz (affectionately called Kibbutzniks because of their socialist leanings). This partly explains the visceral disquiet about Labour's antisemitic ambivalence. For all the right wing pro capitalist elements within 'Judaism' there is also a prominent vein of left-wing zionism.
So the point is this. Don't make yourselves out to be a special case. Don't. Don't. Don't. It's the very thing which stoked the fires of antisemitic racism at the turn of the C20th. This was a lesson drilled home to me ... by Israelis.
Yes, there's a problem with antisemitism within Labour. But, it would be much wiser for Jewish leaders to enfold that within the general subject of growing intolerance including homophobia and racism, and including Islamophobia.
Last post from me on the topic ^^^. Disregard everything else I ever write but listen to me on this. I know my onions.
To register to vote you need your NI Number. Where can you find it in a hurry ?
It is disturbing and very sad to see what Labour has become.
Come on Liberal Democrats. Give us a late surge and restore sanity to politics.
Even though you’re still bastards for standing down in Cannock Chase.
Have a good morning.
How long do historical legacies last? If we should feel guilty for the Empire, should we feel far more proud because of our more recent role in WWII and being on the right side in the Cold War? Should we be glad that we used our military might to end the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and spent a fortune to do so [I believe the final debt for Empire-wide freeing of slaves was only repaid a decade or two ago]?
Should Africans feel bad because of their role, which existed before the British arrived, in enslaving other Africans? Should we teach more about Barbary pirates? Or the Harrowing of the North?
Slavery was part of British history (indeed, going back to Viking and Anglo-Saxon times, and earlier) and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. We also shouldn't pretend its unique to us or something for which current generations should be punished or made to feel guilty.
History shouldn't be viewed through tinted glasses. Corbyn's no friend of Britain, and it's no surprise he wants to add a negative aspect to our education system.
Muslims are not afraid to live in the U.K. (and there is a tendency to try and conflate legitimate criticism of radical Islamists with an on Muslims as a group)
Jewish leaders may be taking a suboptimal approach (and I have occasionally criticised the Israeli government for doing just that) but I can understand given their history
Jews are scared, as a group, of Labour winning. That is an indictment of the party.
https://www.gov.uk/lost-national-insurance-number
If you still cannot find it, you can either:
fill in form CA5403 and send it to the address on the form
contact the National Insurance numbers helpline and answer some questions (you’ll need to fill in form CA5403 if you cannot answer the questions)
HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will not tell you your National Insurance number over the phone. They’ll post it to you and it will arrive within 15 working days.
Any P40/P60 form
I'm not 100% sure she'd made a great PM, but I know she'd be better than both the current incumbant, and the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition.
But in my rural outpost of metropolitan liberal - and Liberal - elitism, it's common on the doorstep to hear from wavering LDs, Greens, Tories and former Labour voters "I'm an immense fan of Jo Swinson, but... (insert "Article 50", "frightened of letting Corbyn/Johnson in", "need faster action on climate", "still can't forgive the Coalition"). There's no one simple answer to the many reasons well-disposed anti-Brexiteers in once-safe Tory or Labour seats have for worrying about voting for us - and it may take two or even three elections to bring many over.
Right now Swinson's not a problem: she's just Marmite. But she's also got the balls to manage the post-Dec 12 negotiations and help stop Johnson and Corbyn mismanaging two once-serious major parties.
I’m proud of its role in spreading liberal democracy and the rule of law, and it’s true legacy is in the positive role the Commonwealth plays today.
I shudder to think what the world would have been like without the British Empire - no USA, no Canada, no multiracial democracy in South Africa, no large democracy in India, nothing in Hong Kong.. And we were instrumental in stamping out the slave trade in the 19thC too.
Your historical revisionism is as bias as it is disgraceful.
Whoever employs and pays him ought to know.
Does that mean I will stop panicking? HELL NO! 😭
NO The NI No and the NHS no are completely different things.
Look down and south of the capital
Environmental issues are the obsession of the under 25s and the Guardian reading, Jesus sandal brigade. Most sane people over the age of 25 realise that global warming will only be restricted if there is a major change of attitude in Washington, Moscow, Beijing and Brasilia. What we are doing in the UK is good but merely tinkering at the edges and would be instantly undone by a decent sized volcanic eruption somewhere in Iceland or Indonesia.
The Labour, Liberal and Green parties are all fishing in the same pond for the same section of the voting community, the one which traditionally has the lowest turnout. The generation which recycles its sweaty socks and thinks nothing of eating via deliveroo and its idea of exercise is pressing buttons on a mobile phone to hail an Uber cab (while they are still licensed). There could be quite a bit of churn in London seats and equally it could be like Scotland in 2010, nothing to see here!
I think that we do have to bear in mind that there wasn't a very large pool to fish in for candidates, with just 12 MPs to choose from and several of those only elected in 2017.
I think she is doing fine, as the header shows, in target seats, but clearly isn't going to be winning over Leavers.
I think she will grow into the role, particularly if a further increase in parliamentary party comes out of the GE. 20 is the minimum target for me, 30 or more would be a good night, particularly if we have NOC.
In the latter case, I would have Davey as chief negotiator. He is good in that sort of negotiation.
I do not want to see a return to the slave trade etc which existed pre Empire. Do you?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-election-poll-kantar/conservatives-poll-lead-over-labour-narrows-to-11-points-kantar-poll-idUKKBN1Y00R2
I think that our government actually has a pretty good story to tell on this. The growth of wind power, solar and other renewables in this country over the last decade is remarkable. Our almost elimination of coal as a power source is welcome too.
But I am frustrated at the lack of urgency in relation to transport. The timescales for introducing electric vehicles into our cities are not nearly ambitious enough. I think that future generations will think that having diesels belch out their particulates in our cities seems every bit as remarkable as the smogs of previous generations do to us.
I think that our foreign aid should be largely directed at helping poorer countries reduce their carbon footprint by assisting them in installing clean technologies. There is quite a bit more we can do.
Fox jr registered online in his new constituency, and autofill did his NI number. I am not sure if this was via his own system or the governments.
It may have been the governments autofill as he was registered here in Leics.
He is usually apolitical, but was rather impressed when he met his MP out canvassing, and will be voting Lab I think.
I don't know any who are considering emigration. But they feel that a state of permanent low-level alarm is sadly something they have to live with. I'm not sure that people in comfortable areas really realise this.
Don’t think anyone should panic at an 11 point lead but goes to show the Tories can’t be complacent.
It took Blair three years and the previous work of Kinnock and Smith. It took Wilson two years and most of Gaitskell's leadership. It took Attlee an entire World War. And it took Thatcher four years - and then two years of bumbling once in office..
The delusion that you need Strong Leaders leads either to the autocracy of Lenin and Hitler, or the shambolic incoherence of Trump's America. In functioning parliamentary democracies (which Britain still is) a leader has to lead.
The real test for Swinson is whether her team shows enough nimbleness over the next two weeks of campaigning to become king-makers - and enough steeliness on and after Dec 13 to rid us of Corbyn and Johnson.
"Wrenching mantles" can wait till the election after the successful 2020 referendum
The slave trade was a key factor in how Britain industrialised, where else did all that cotton milling in Lancs come from? Ditto a lot of the iron mongering in the Black Country.
There is plenty of more recent toxic history of the Empire, much within living memory.
This year I have had visits from 3 sets of cousins descended from unions between Highland Scottish sons of Lairds and a black female slave or freed former slave. I have also had contact from 3 more in Jamaica whom I haven't yet met. They are totally matter of fact about how they come to be who they are. They have no chips on their shoulders or feel wronged or hard done by. Like me they are just delighted to have made contact with a new cousin who can shed light on a large part of their past. From my point of view they are simply cousins and along with all my other Sutherland cousins, am delighted to have them as part of the family. The fact that 200 years ago a sibling of one of my ancestors was the owner of plantations in the West Indies is a part of history. Not a particularly proud part of our family history but no less or more part of my history than the fact I wouldn't be here if David I hadn't asked an ancestor to go up to the Moray Firth and butcher anyone who refused to accept his authority or another Sir John de Menteith who captured William Wallace and handed him over to another ancestor Edward I for punishment. The main beneficiary - yet another ancestor Robert the Bruce. History is history and we cannot impose 21st century notions of decency on the past. What does Corbyn want to do next - offer compensation to the families of all the boy chimney sweeps forced to climb up the inside of chimneys in large houses like the one Corbyn himself grew up in!
Lord Heseltine was also on Good Morning Britain this morning urging voters to vote LD to get a second EU referendum much as Tony Blair was yesterday where Labour were not in contention. Heseltine also said Brexit would lead to permanent economic decline for Britain
Barring ICM there seems to be a herding around 11 point lead. This is bang on target and the Welsh poll yesterday was also comparable to an 11 point lead in its swing.
11% is more in line with what other pollsters are showing. I won't panic from this one.
All we can look at is the like-for-like with Kantar (Lab +5, Con -2, LD -2) and then consider the possibility of random error.
The slave trade is as old as humanity. We didn't start the fire to quote Billy Joel it existed for thousands of years. It is as old as recorded human history.
We didn't start it but we did end it.
Still a swing of 4.5% from Labour to the Tories since 2017
I used to live in the Caribbean so I do know quite a lot about slavery, colonialism and the history of the slave trade.
As a young man he mapped out that path to being PM. That it didn't come about - yet Boris's did - might be because he backed the wrong EU horse.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50547073
Con Lab LD BXP Green PC SNP Total
England 316 191 25 0 1 0 0 533
Wales 14 21 1 0 0 4 0 40
Scotland 9 1 5 0 0 0 44 59
TOTAL 339 213 31 0 1 4 44 632
Tory majority 28