That arguably, too, has an impact on Brexit. Corbyn's big problem on that is lack of trust from people who should naturally slip into the Labour remain column as they did in 2017 (among whom I'd normally include myself). Anything that shows him and the party up as less than trustworthy and a potential disaster in government makes people who dislike Corbyn and dislike Brexit, less likely to make a devil's bargain.
And unlike the Tories, who don't need every Farage-curious person to exalt in Boris to win, Labour needs not just some of those people back, but almost all of them.
For me, the conviction that nobody in the leadership is actually in the least anti-semitic is sufficient to class it as a mistake rather than a deal-breaker. But you've helped me understand why others might feel differently. Thank you.
Thank you Nick. Much appreciated. I do take your point about process - which I think is why Labour's approach has been such a monumental failure. Because you can't deal with it just through process. Which is necessarily retroactive, often requires people to make brave decisions i.e. kicking out pals or powerful figures, and until independent always has a sense of Labour marking its own homework. Instead it's about culture - and because of past failures to put up a cordon sanitaire between the anti-war and pro-Palestine movements, and his failure to engage with the impacts of that, why it's offensive and worrying to a lot of Jews, apologise, explain, and truly work on how to change, it's set a bit of a toxic culture where some people with antisemitic views will have joined Labour or been energised and become more active within it. As well as others who are loyal to Corbyn to a fault, and see almost any criticism as in bad faith, who have pitted themselves against Jewish complaints about Corbyn. I know social media is no guide, but if you look at any almost any prominent Jewish person tweeting even a mild complaint couched in supportive terms about antisemitism you will see the same angry memes, some promoted by the party leadership or outriders, same attacks and general talking past each other rather than listening to Jewish fears and why the prospect of Corbyn and Labour in power is actively frightening.
It's been treated as a problem of process and PR rather than of taking a deep long look into the left's political culture and how that creates these problems that keep growing the bad apples (true, of course of the right on other issues).
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
1950s I believe. Yes, pre-1974. The border uncertainty pre-1974 is something that a surprising number of people know nothing about. I looked for it on this map because I knew about it. Don't think the casual observer would have spotted it; I certainly wouldn't have had I not known.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536. However, it was outside the quarter sessions groups of Wales, which were organised into four and based on Ludlow. Instead, its courts reported directly to London.
Therefore, any act which referred to Wales always referred to ‘Wales’ (those areas which came under the jurisdiction of Ludlow) and ‘Monmouthshire’ because of this separate legal system, not for any other reason. ‘South Wales and Monmouthshire,’ therefore, referred to the three counties in the South Wales circuit which off-hand I think were Brecon, Glamorgan and Pembroke, and the separate circuit of Monmouthshire, which was part of South Wales geographically but not linked to the South Wales legal circuit. A bit like referring to ‘Gloucestershire and Bristol.’
It is worth pointing out that the Acts of Union, which allotted 26 MPs to Wales,* made this clear by assigning only one MP to Merioneth and three to Monmouthshire.
*This was increased to 27 after Henry VIII declared that at his personal pleasure Haverfordwest would have a separate MP.
Who is the “white supremacy fangirl” she says is a #10 advisor?
Elsewhere.in the rant she mentions Chloe Westley as the person. Never heard her so no idea if this is a fair description. Based on the rest of the ravings I would suspect not.
She thinks Anne-Marie Waters is a hero.
According to HuffPo she had no idea what some of AMW’s views were (neither do I) and was horrified when told.
(I find that plausible as a good friend of mine voted BNP in Tower Hamlets some 20 years ago - he was protesting against the corruption in the council and had no idea that the BNP was as nasty as they are.)
She thought AMW was a hero and wanted her work published, but had no idea what some of her views were? What a moron.
It’s plausible that she only watched that appeal and forwarded it with an emotive topping. Silly behaviour but that’s what social media encourages.
I don’t think that a single post should be taken to reflect someone’s entire world view though.
The HuffPo article was amusingly constructed though. They had one of her tweets (I forget exactly but something like Low taxes, slash red tape - simplistic but not outrageous) immediately followed by an outraged comment from a Labour shadow minister that someone with those views has no place in public life
Turnout is a straw I'm clutching. I think Remainers are more likely to vote than Leavers and this - if allied to smart tactical voting - could mitigate the Tory majority, perhaps even stop it.
Also re previous header, yes, spot on about the Benn Act. It was an error. I don't think No Deal was happening anyway - and nor will it on 31 Dec 2020 - and so all the Benn Act did was let Johnson off the hook and allow him to create his desired GE narrative.
If you had seen the swathe of spoilt ballots in the local and European elections you would have no doubt that leave voters are incredibly enthused to vote. Now they are not necessarily going to vote for the best fit to get the result they want, but they will vote. After the Euros I would not be surprised if some of them spoil their ballot papers. You would be amazed at how many expressed the sentiment that the European Elections represented a waisted [sic] opportunity.
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
If I'm understanding correctly this was a Labour Party beano to Cheltenham Races, so presumably the other people on the bus were Labour people. It isn't in the news because some journo poured through years of public internet postings, it's in the news because another Labour person on the bus went to the press about it 20 months later in the middle of an election campaign. Carden and McGinn are from different wings of the party as well. All very peculiar.
I believe the journo was on the bus - the source was in the seat behind the singer if not
It is a point I have repeatedly made in recent thread headers and below the line comments - that the Tories apparent policy preferences are largely at odds with the desires of those pro-Brexit voters whose votes they are chasing. The big risk for the Tories is that they win the election and then find themselves hoist by the incompatibility between what Brexit voters expect and what the Tories then do.
It's a fascinating disconnect, this. Brexit is a project of the Tory Right facilitated by the votes of people whose interests the Tory Right have little regard for.
I also find the following question interesting to ponder -
Have the Tory Right delivered Brexit or has Brexit delivered the Tory Right?
I don't have one good answer to your first paragraph, but I do have several half-baked ones: 1) I'm not convinced that economic left v economic right firs neatly into poor vs rich in terms of winners and losers. It's more complex than that and depends on individual circumstance. I would of course argue that most are richer with economic liberalism, but you and I will have to agree to differ on that! But fot amswering your question, the important point is that not all of the poor agree with your interpretation of how their economic interests are best served. 2) I would also argue - and you may not agree, but what is important is the perception of voters- that Corbynism would be economically disastrous for everyone, rich and pooor. The rich have more to lose but the poor are less able to shield themselves from the impact of economic meltdown. To which you would reasonably counter well what about the economic impact of Brexit, to which I would reply that that is a fair point but that the economic impact of Venezuelafication is much worse. 3) Politics is decreasingly economic and increasingly cultural (cf American politics). If you are a spot welder from Stoke obviously Boris is from another tribe, but not as obviously alien a tribe as Jeremy with his curious obsessions with the Middle East, or even the wider left and their obsession with identity politics and theirapparent disdain for your values. And people don't vote for parties who don't appear to like them very much.
You can tell me that all of these are wrong: that Jeremy is interested in lots of things besides the Middle East, that the Emily Thornberrys of the party are not representative, that most Labour MPs are decent and normal people. But the important thing isn't what you or I tjink, it's the perception of voters.
He just said that she has a particular view and others disagree!
That doesn’t seem an unreasonable comment to make!
Given Warsi takes the MCB line, refuting anything she says is the obvious and sensible thing to do
Am I hearing you right? Islamophobia is ok because you don't like the MCB? Is that any different from someone saying that antisemitism is ok because Israel is bad?
Having a different view to Warsi is not Islamophobia!
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
The phrase 'that's all you need to know' should always be treated with circumspection.
I disagree. It’s a very useful signal that the user has simplified the matter at hand and doesn’t want you to dig further
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
I said Putin. Not Communism. Putin isn't a Communist, he's a fascist.
Putin doesn't do ideology; he has occupied every part of the political spectrum as convenience has dictated. The only constants have been publicly espoused Eurasian nationalism and social conservatism of the idéologie tripartite flavour.
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
I said Putin. Not Communism. Putin isn't a Communist, he's a fascist.
Putin doesn't do ideology; he has occupied every part of the political spectrum as convenience has dictated. The only constants have been publicly espoused Eurasian nationalism and social conservatism of the idéologie tripartite flavour.
There is strong evidence to the contrary. The works of Snyder are a good introduction into Putin's embrace of fascist ideas: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-philosopher-of-russian-fascism/ You're right about the Eurasian nationalism, but this is actually similar to Hitler's vision of the unification of greater Germany. It's founded on psychosexual and pseudoreligious grounds and a deep irrationalism that is very reminiscent of Nazism. It is definitely not the same as Nazism, by the way, but fascism is a bit wider than that.
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
The phrase 'that's all you need to know' should always be treated with circumspection.
I disagree. It’s a very useful signal that the user has simplified the matter at hand and doesn’t want you to dig further
You may think you're disagreeing but you are actually confirming Luckyguy's point.
My thanks to @david_herdson and to all thread header writers. They are usually of great interest, but my relish for politics has more or less died of shame. Sorry to say I'm ashamed of more or less everybody involved.
It is a point I have repeatedly made in recent thread headers and below the line comments - that the Tories apparent policy preferences are largely at odds with the desires of those pro-Brexit voters whose votes they are chasing. The big risk for the Tories is that they win the election and then find themselves hoist by the incompatibility between what Brexit voters expect and what the Tories then do.
It's a fascinating disconnect, this. Brexit is a project of the Tory Right facilitated by the votes of people whose interests the Tory Right have little regard for.
I also find the following question interesting to ponder -
Have the Tory Right delivered Brexit or has Brexit delivered the Tory Right?
I don't have one good answer to your first paragraph, but I do have several half-baked ones: 1) I'm not convinced that economic left v economic right firs neatly into poor vs rich in terms of winners and losers. It's more complex than that and depends on individual circumstance. I would of course argue that most are richer with economic liberalism, but you and I will have to agree to differ on that! But fot amswering your question, the important point is that not all of the poor agree with your interpretation of how their economic interests are best served. 2) I would also argue - and you may not agree, but what is important is the perception of voters- that Corbynism would be economically disastrous for everyone, rich and pooor. The rich have more to lose but the poor are less able to shield themselves from the impact of economic meltdown. To which you would reasonably counter well what about the economic impact of Brexit, to which I would reply that that is a fair point but that the economic impact of Venezuelafication is much worse. 3) Politics is decreasingly economic and increasingly cultural (cf American politics). If you are a spot welder from Stoke obviously Boris is from another tribe, but not as obviously alien a tribe as Jeremy with his curious obsessions with the Middle East, or even the wider left and their obsession with identity politics and theirapparent disdain for your values. And people don't vote for parties who don't appear to like them very much.
You can tell me that all of these are wrong: that Jeremy is interested in lots of things besides the Middle East, that the Emily Thornberrys of the party are not representative, that most Labour MPs are decent and normal people. But the important thing isn't what you or I tjink, it's the perception of voters.
Fascinating post Cookie (and thread kinabalu). This and similar is what's good about here.
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
Spoiler: Jo Swinson will not be PM. The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th.
I see that Mr Mark is still carrying out his orders from Tory HQ. Belittle Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems in whatever way you can dream up. She - and they - are far more credible that the burbling incompetent the Tories have fronting their campaign.
"Tory Swinson" (BJO) repeat ad nauseum on pb.
The statement "The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th." shows an extraordinary lack of political imagination.
Yes it is very unlikely she will be PM. However, imagine this scenario: It is a hung parliament. Conservatives have most seats, but less than Labour and LD combined. Jo Swinson will not (quite correctly) support a Corbyn government. Jezza decides to spend more time with his allotment in exchange for the LDs supporting Emily Thornberry for PM with Jo Swinson in some senior position, plus other LDs. Jo Swinson is not BEING the PM, but she is DECIDING. A vote for LD is not a vote for Corbyn, quite the opposite, it is a vote for moderate non extreme government, and one I will be very happy with.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536. However, it was outside the quarter sessions groups of Wales, which were organised into four and based on Ludlow. Instead, its courts reported directly to London.
Therefore, any act which referred to Wales always referred to ‘Wales’ (those areas which came under the jurisdiction of Ludlow) and ‘Monmouthshire’ because of this separate legal system, not for any other reason. ‘South Wales and Monmouthshire,’ therefore, referred to the three counties in the South Wales circuit which off-hand I think were Brecon, Glamorgan and Pembroke, and the separate circuit of Monmouthshire, which was part of South Wales geographically but not linked to the South Wales legal circuit. A bit like referring to ‘Gloucestershire and Bristol.’
It is worth pointing out that the Acts of Union, which allotted 26 MPs to Wales,* made this clear by assigning only one MP to Merioneth and three to Monmouthshire.
*This was increased to 27 after Henry VIII declared that at his personal pleasure Haverfordwest would have a separate MP.
I much prefer Humphrey Llwyd's map which shows Powys extending to the banks of the Severn at Worcester:
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
We're in 2nd place in the SW, SE and the East of England. I had EEng down as Brexit heartlands - the good people of Boston who don't want to work in the local food industry wanting rid of the migrants who came to take the jobs they won't do, that sort of thing. Yet the LibDems are in 2nd ahead of Labour https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1192803313462448128
It is not “jobs they won’t do”. It is virtual slave labour wages that big business supports unlimited migration for. Without mass migration businesses would have to pay a reasonable wage. That, in a nutshell, is why ordinary working people despise the establishment parties.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536. However, it was outside the quarter sessions groups of Wales, which were organised into four and based on Ludlow. Instead, its courts reported directly to London.
Therefore, any act which referred to Wales always referred to ‘Wales’ (those areas which came under the jurisdiction of Ludlow) and ‘Monmouthshire’ because of this separate legal system, not for any other reason. ‘South Wales and Monmouthshire,’ therefore, referred to the three counties in the South Wales circuit which off-hand I think were Brecon, Glamorgan and Pembroke, and the separate circuit of Monmouthshire, which was part of South Wales geographically but not linked to the South Wales legal circuit. A bit like referring to ‘Gloucestershire and Bristol.’
It is worth pointing out that the Acts of Union, which allotted 26 MPs to Wales,* made this clear by assigning only one MP to Merioneth and three to Monmouthshire.
*This was increased to 27 after Henry VIII declared that at his personal pleasure Haverfordwest would have a separate MP.
I much prefer Humphrey Llwyd's map which shows Powys extending to the banks of the Severn at Worcester:
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
Have to say I'm with you on this one Rog, some raucous slightly un-PC goings on in a battle bus. The horror.
A shadow cabinet minister should know better
And in what way is signing “Hey Jew” vs “Hey Jude” actually funny?
Actually it is now featuring on the news as the mp's plaintiff cry goes up, why now just on an election.
I would just like to say I am not firing on all cylinders at present and may not be able to post as often as I would like but hopefully it will not be for long
I think the expression is 'play nicely friends'
Hope it’s nothing more serious than the bug that’s been going around
Thanks Charles. It is relatively minor and hope to be fully back soon
He just said that she has a particular view and others disagree!
That doesn’t seem an unreasonable comment to make!
Given Warsi takes the MCB line, refuting anything she says is the obvious and sensible thing to do
Am I hearing you right? Islamophobia is ok because you don't like the MCB? Is that any different from someone saying that antisemitism is ok because Israel is bad?
Having a different view to Warsi is not Islamophobia!
No, but dismissing her concerns about Islamophobia for ad hominem reasons is to give a free pass to islamophobia.
I am not a Conservative and I don't like Warsi. If I'm able to separate that from taking her seriously on this issue, anybody should be able to.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536. However, it was outside the quarter sessions groups of Wales, which were organised into four and based on Ludlow. Instead, its courts reported directly to London.
Therefore, any act which referred to Wales always referred to ‘Wales’ (those areas which came under the jurisdiction of Ludlow) and ‘Monmouthshire’ because of this separate legal system, not for any other reason. ‘South Wales and Monmouthshire,’ therefore, referred to the three counties in the South Wales circuit which off-hand I think were Brecon, Glamorgan and Pembroke, and the separate circuit of Monmouthshire, which was part of South Wales geographically but not linked to the South Wales legal circuit. A bit like referring to ‘Gloucestershire and Bristol.’
It is worth pointing out that the Acts of Union, which allotted 26 MPs to Wales,* made this clear by assigning only one MP to Merioneth and three to Monmouthshire.
*This was increased to 27 after Henry VIII declared that at his personal pleasure Haverfordwest would have a separate MP.
I much prefer Humphrey Llwyd's map which shows Powys extending to the banks of the Severn at Worcester:
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
We're in 2nd place in the SW, SE and the East of England. I had EEng down as Brexit heartlands - the good people of Boston who don't want to work in the local food industry wanting rid of the migrants who came to take the jobs they won't do, that sort of thing. Yet the LibDems are in 2nd ahead of Labour https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1192803313462448128
It is not “jobs they won’t do”. It is virtual slave labour wages that big business supports unlimited migration for. Without mass migration businesses would have to pay a reasonable wage. That, in a nutshell, is why ordinary working people despise the establishment parties.
Pigeonholing people as "ordinary working people" is patronising and insulting to anyone. If one can define people in such an old fashioned way, it is still a sweeping generalisation to say they "despise the established parties". Some might, and some might have been persuaded or conned to vote for the Faragist right wing. Such people will soon recognise Farage and his ilk for what they are. It is only a matter of time. "Ordinary working people" are not stupid. Like everyone, they can't be fooled "all of the time".
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
I said Putin. Not Communism. Putin isn't a Communist, he's a fascist.
Putin doesn't do ideology; he has occupied every part of the political spectrum as convenience has dictated. The only constants have been publicly espoused Eurasian nationalism and social conservatism of the idéologie tripartite flavour.
Along with more than a touch of l’état c’est moi.
Russia's in for some big trouble when Putin steps down or, more likely, dies. What's the succession principle? Russian elections are a joke, and whoever gets installed will face a significant challenge from certain sections of the public. Could be a recipe for violent repression or a quick succession of several floundering governments a la the UK.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536. However, it was outside the quarter sessions groups of Wales, which were organised into four and based on Ludlow. Instead, its courts reported directly to London.
Therefore, any act which referred to Wales always referred to ‘Wales’ (those areas which came under the jurisdiction of Ludlow) and ‘Monmouthshire’ because of this separate legal system, not for any other reason. ‘South Wales and Monmouthshire,’ therefore, referred to the three counties in the South Wales circuit which off-hand I think were Brecon, Glamorgan and Pembroke, and the separate circuit of Monmouthshire, which was part of South Wales geographically but not linked to the South Wales legal circuit. A bit like referring to ‘Gloucestershire and Bristol.’
It is worth pointing out that the Acts of Union, which allotted 26 MPs to Wales,* made this clear by assigning only one MP to Merioneth and three to Monmouthshire.
*This was increased to 27 after Henry VIII declared that at his personal pleasure Haverfordwest would have a separate MP.
I much prefer Humphrey Llwyd's map which shows Powys extending to the banks of the Severn at Worcester:
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
I said Putin. Not Communism. Putin isn't a Communist, he's a fascist.
Putin doesn't do ideology; he has occupied every part of the political spectrum as convenience has dictated. The only constants have been publicly espoused Eurasian nationalism and social conservatism of the idéologie tripartite flavour.
Along with more than a touch of l’état c’est moi.
Russia's in for some big trouble when Putin steps down or, more likely, dies. What's the succession principle? Russian elections are a joke, and whoever gets installed will face a significant challenge from certain sections of the public. Could be a recipe for violent repression or a quick succession of several floundering governments a la the UK.
I would guess the second, because that is the way such things are traditionally managed in Russia since 1917. See Lvov, Kerensky, Lenin, then Rykov, Tomsky, Stalin, then Malenkov, Bulganin, Khrushchev, then Andropov, Chernenko, Gorbachev, and finally the rash of prime ministers in Yeltsin’s last three years.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536.
I much prefer Humphrey Llwyd's map which shows Powys extending to the banks of the Severn at Worcester:
Ah, yes, who could forget Sir Alec's sporting prowess? Private Eye used to repeat a scurrilous tale about him murdering someone with a cricket bat at Eton. He kept changing his name but the rumour always seemed to catch up with him.
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
He's chosen to advance the career of a disloyal amoral mendacious creep for money. Not the same. Worse.
I'll mark you down as "undecided " then about Boris.
Also, note the odd path taken by the English border... Newport, Monmouth and Chepstow all in England rather than Wales!
Do you have a date for that map?
The status of Monmouthshire has been ambiguous with many Acts of Parliament considering it part of England, until the 1974 reorganisation put it into Wales. The English Democrat Party want a border poll in Monmouthshire to settle the issue when England becomes independent.
The status of Monmouthshire is not ambiguous. It has always been part of Wales since the rearrangement into 13 counties in 1536.
I much prefer Humphrey Llwyd's map which shows Powys extending to the banks of the Severn at Worcester:
Ah, yes, who could forget Sir Alec's sporting prowess? Private Eye used to repeat a scurrilous tale about him murdering someone with a cricket bat at Eton. He kept changing his name but the rumour always seemed to catch up with him.
Surely if he had murdered someone it would have been dun with glass?
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
We're in 2nd place in the SW, SE and the East of England. I had EEng down as Brexit heartlands - the good people of Boston who don't want to work in the local food industry wanting rid of the migrants who came to take the jobs they won't do, that sort of thing. Yet the LibDems are in 2nd ahead of Labour https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1192803313462448128
It is not “jobs they won’t do”. It is virtual slave labour wages that big business supports unlimited migration for. Without mass migration businesses would have to pay a reasonable wage. That, in a nutshell, is why ordinary working people despise the establishment parties.
It's of no consequence to this argument, but Boston is in the East Midlands, not EoE.
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
Spoiler: Jo Swinson will not be PM. The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th.
I see that Mr Mark is still carrying out his orders from Tory HQ. Belittle Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems in whatever way you can dream up. She - and they - are far more credible that the burbling incompetent the Tories have fronting their campaign.
"Tory Swinson" (BJO) repeat ad nauseum on pb.
The statement "The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th." shows an extraordinary lack of political imagination.
Yes it is very unlikely she will be PM. However, imagine this scenario: It is a hung parliament. Conservatives have most seats, but less than Labour and LD combined. Jo Swinson will not (quite correctly) support a Corbyn government. Jezza decides to spend more time with his allotment in exchange for the LDs supporting Emily Thornberry for PM with Jo Swinson in some senior position, plus other LDs. Jo Swinson is not BEING the PM, but she is DECIDING. A vote for LD is not a vote for Corbyn, quite the opposite, it is a vote for moderate non extreme government, and one I will be very happy with.
The leaflet she sent out to everyone was introducing Jo Swinson, Prime Minister.
Not "some senior position in a Labour Govt. with SNP and LibDem support."
So we agree she will not be PM. Her first introduction to many of the electorate is that she is another lying politico. No better than the rest.
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
He's chosen to advance the career of a disloyal amoral mendacious creep for money. Not the same. Worse.
Are you seriously saying that Boris is worse than the IRA and Hamas? Are you all right Roger?
He just said that she has a particular view and others disagree!
That doesn’t seem an unreasonable comment to make!
Given Warsi takes the MCB line, refuting anything she says is the obvious and sensible thing to do
Am I hearing you right? Islamophobia is ok because you don't like the MCB? Is that any different from someone saying that antisemitism is ok because Israel is bad?
"Islamophobia" was a concept invented by Iranian fundamentalists in the late 1970's to suppress moderate muslims who questioned the Koran or who wanted freedom for women.
It's now used as a catch all phrase to cover or ban any criticism of the religion of Islam and it seems, any comments against middle eastern or some south Asian countries or people.
He just said that she has a particular view and others disagree!
That doesn’t seem an unreasonable comment to make!
Given Warsi takes the MCB line, refuting anything she says is the obvious and sensible thing to do
Am I hearing you right? Islamophobia is ok because you don't like the MCB? Is that any different from someone saying that antisemitism is ok because Israel is bad?
"Islamophobia" was a concept invented by Iranian fundamentalists in the late 1970's to suppress moderate muslims who questioned the Koran or who wanted freedom for women.
It's now used as a catch all phrase to cover or ban any criticism of the religion of Islam and it seems, any comments against middle eastern or some south Asian countries or people.
Not the same as antisemitism at all.
Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə) n 1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture 2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
The British General Election of 1923, was held on December 9th. Had a 71.1% turnout.
Called by a new Conservative Prime Minister who wanted a mandate for his economic policy of of protectionism. However The Tories lost seats to Labour and The Liberals. A minority Labour Ministry was formed.
Pedant hat ON
It was a Unionist prime minister. The Unionists did not readopt the name Conservative until 1925, and even then some of their MPs refused to use it (e.g. Neville Chamberlain).
Pedant hat OFF.
Posted in hast without checking my history books. My visual reply would use Bart Simpson writing 'The Unionist' Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin called The General Election of December 9th 1923 only to lose power.
Have to look for newspaper reports on bad weather and low turnouts in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland.
"Islamophobia" was a concept invented by Iranian fundamentalists in the late 1970's to suppress moderate muslims who questioned the Koran or who wanted freedom for women.
It's now used as a catch all phrase to cover or ban any criticism of the religion of Islam and it seems, any comments against middle eastern or some south Asian countries or people.
Not the same as antisemitism at all.
Sounds like you are more concerned about what to call anti Muslim bigotry than about anti Muslim bigotry.
I understand that to many, all this will sound overwrought. I’m afraid that Jewish history has made us that way, prone to imagining the worst. We look at our usually sparse family trees and we can pick out the pessimists, those who panicked and got out. It was they who left their mark on us. You see, the optimists, those who assumed things would work out for the best, they never made it out in time.
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
Spoiler: Jo Swinson will not be PM. The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th.
I see that Mr Mark is still carrying out his orders from Tory HQ. Belittle Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems in whatever way you can dream up. She - and they - are far more credible that the burbling incompetent the Tories have fronting their campaign.
"Tory Swinson" (BJO) repeat ad nauseum on pb.
The statement "The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th." shows an extraordinary lack of political imagination.
Yes it is very unlikely she will be PM. However, imagine this scenario: It is a hung parliament. Conservatives have most seats, but less than Labour and LD combined. Jo Swinson will not (quite correctly) support a Corbyn government. Jezza decides to spend more time with his allotment in exchange for the LDs supporting Emily Thornberry for PM with Jo Swinson in some senior position, plus other LDs. Jo Swinson is not BEING the PM, but she is DECIDING. A vote for LD is not a vote for Corbyn, quite the opposite, it is a vote for moderate non extreme government, and one I will be very happy with.
The leaflet she sent out to everyone was introducing Jo Swinson, Prime Minister.
Not "some senior position in a Labour Govt. with SNP and LibDem support."
So we agree she will not be PM. Her first introduction to many of the electorate is that she is another lying politico. No better than the rest.
Well, let's see how far the death wish of the Tories and Labour goes.
Jesus Christ! Someone overheard someone on a bus back from Cheltenham.....
This is Stasiland!
About which Seamus Milne penned wistful articles about the DDR's wonderful social policies.
Must be English irony.
My knowledge of Milne stops at the point his father got shafted by Thatcher. Because of that i've always had a soft spot for him but have never followed hs politics. Oh and he looks like Strelnikov in Dr Zhivago
Milne is a dangerous apologist for Putin. That's all you need to know. He's should be nowhere near the levers of power. Exactly the same as Cummings.
When has Cummings ever supported communist regimes, anti western terrorists and 1 of the 3 worst mass murderers in history?
Not the same at all.
He's chosen to advance the career of a disloyal amoral mendacious creep for money. Not the same. Worse.
Are you seriously saying that Boris is worse than the IRA and Hamas? Are you all right Roger?
At least Marty McGuinness never lied to her maj.
Quiet smiley in this meeting, I daresay she wouldn't look quite so pleased next time she has to shake the paw of Britain Trump.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The British General Election of 1923, was held on December 9th. Had a 71.1% turnout.
Called by a new Conservative Prime Minister who wanted a mandate for his economic policy of of protectionism. However The Tories lost seats to Labour and The Liberals. A minority Labour Ministry was formed.
Pedant hat ON
It was a Unionist prime minister. The Unionists did not readopt the name Conservative until 1925, and even then some of their MPs refused to use it (e.g. Neville Chamberlain).
Pedant hat OFF.
Posted in hast without checking my history books. My visual reply would use Bart Simpson writing 'The Unionist' Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin called The General Election of December 9th 1923 only to lose power.
Have to look for newspaper reports on bad weather and low turnouts in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
We're in 2nd place in the SW, SE and the East of England. I had EEng down as Brexit heartlands - the good people of Boston who don't want to work in the local food industry wanting rid of the migrants who came to take the jobs they won't do, that sort of thing. Yet the LibDems are in 2nd ahead of Labour https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1192803313462448128
It is not “jobs they won’t do”. It is virtual slave labour wages that big business supports unlimited migration for. Without mass migration businesses would have to pay a reasonable wage. That, in a nutshell, is why ordinary working people despise the establishment parties.
Hmmm. I have personal experience of food factories in Eastern England full of migrants all paid well above the living wage absolutely unable to attract anyone local. If people don't want to work in a food factory or harvesting food that's fine. But you can't call it's slave wages and blame the bosses when a shortage of labour has seen wages soar. All this food left rotting on the ground is worth far more than a few quid extra in wages...
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
But they never will risk it, not while Corbyn is Labour leader. The shock of that 2017 exit poll is a huge asset for the Tories. The idea that "well, he can't get in" so it is safe to vote LibDem for Remainers/Brexit for Leavers has been knocked out of play in 2019.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
We're in 2nd place in the SW, SE and the East of England. I had EEng down as Brexit heartlands - the good people of Boston who don't want to work in the local food industry wanting rid of the migrants who came to take the jobs they won't do, that sort of thing. Yet the LibDems are in 2nd ahead of Labour https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1192803313462448128
It is not “jobs they won’t do”. It is virtual slave labour wages that big business supports unlimited migration for. Without mass migration businesses would have to pay a reasonable wage. That, in a nutshell, is why ordinary working people despise the establishment parties.
Hmmm. I have personal experience of food factories in Eastern England full of migrants all paid well above the living wage absolutely unable to attract anyone local. If people don't want to work in a food factory or harvesting food that's fine. But you can't call it's slave wages and blame the bosses when a shortage of labour has seen wages soar. All this food left rotting on the ground is worth far more than a few quid extra in wages...
And it's why I think the availability of working visas should be based on supply and demand rather than an arbitrary minimum salary level.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
Can’t you just let it be ?
Well their economic policies were certainly popular Back in the USSR.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
Can’t you just let it be ?
Well their economic policies were certainly popular Back in the USSR.
Birmingham Hall Green: Tahir Ali. He is a Birmingham Cll
West Bromwich East: Ibrahim Dogus. He is a Cllr in Lambeth and was convincingly beaten in the selection of Vauxhall
Dogus seems alright, but surely a bad choice for WBE. He might scrape in, and then get a reasonable majority next time, but it seems disrespectful to me to parachute people in.
He just said that she has a particular view and others disagree!
That doesn’t seem an unreasonable comment to make!
Given Warsi takes the MCB line, refuting anything she says is the obvious and sensible thing to do
Am I hearing you right? Islamophobia is ok because you don't like the MCB? Is that any different from someone saying that antisemitism is ok because Israel is bad?
Having a different view to Warsi is not Islamophobia!
No, but dismissing her concerns about Islamophobia for ad hominem reasons is to give a free pass to islamophobia.
I am not a Conservative and I don't like Warsi. If I'm able to separate that from taking her seriously on this issue, anybody should be able to.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
Can’t you just let it be ?
Well their economic policies were certainly popular Back in the USSR.
Canvassing anecdotes from the East Mids this morning, Tory vote seems stable, Lib Dems picking a bit up, Labour support is very soft, in fact I had a Labour member say they were voting Tory to get rid of Corbyn. No one saying the Brexit party.
The British General Election of 1923, was held on December 9th. Had a 71.1% turnout.
Called by a new Conservative Prime Minister who wanted a mandate for his economic policy of of protectionism. However The Tories lost seats to Labour and The Liberals. A minority Labour Ministry was formed.
Pedant hat ON
It was a Unionist prime minister. The Unionists did not readopt the name Conservative until 1925, and even then some of their MPs refused to use it (e.g. Neville Chamberlain).
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
If there is no corroborating evidence then they should do nothing oncevthey have investigated.
Every single one of these people who are caught making anti semitic comments should be thrown out of the party straight away. But there is a great danger right now of taking any claim as fact. Hearsay is no grounds for ruining someones reputation.
I don't have one good answer to your first paragraph, but I do have several half-baked ones: 1) I'm not convinced that economic left v economic right firs neatly into poor vs rich in terms of winners and losers. It's more complex than that and depends on individual circumstance. I would of course argue that most are richer with economic liberalism, but you and I will have to agree to differ on that! But fot amswering your question, the important point is that not all of the poor agree with your interpretation of how their economic interests are best served. 2) I would also argue - and you may not agree, but what is important is the perception of voters- that Corbynism would be economically disastrous for everyone, rich and pooor. The rich have more to lose but the poor are less able to shield themselves from the impact of economic meltdown. To which you would reasonably counter well what about the economic impact of Brexit, to which I would reply that that is a fair point but that the economic impact of Venezuelafication is much worse. 3) Politics is decreasingly economic and increasingly cultural (cf American politics). If you are a spot welder from Stoke obviously Boris is from another tribe, but not as obviously alien a tribe as Jeremy with his curious obsessions with the Middle East, or even the wider left and their obsession with identity politics and theirapparent disdain for your values. And people don't vote for parties who don't appear to like them very much.
You can tell me that all of these are wrong: that Jeremy is interested in lots of things besides the Middle East, that the Emily Thornberrys of the party are not representative, that most Labour MPs are decent and normal people. But the important thing isn't what you or I tjink, it's the perception of voters.
Far from half-baked. On economic matters I would argue that it is at the very least more likely than not that having a party in government who have a serious reduction in inequality as its mantra would benefit the people who at present languish at or towards the bottom of the pile.
Your point 3 is more where I think the biggest problem lies for Corbynite Labour as pertaining to its lack of appeal (if such is indeed demonstrated by this GE) to its traditional blue collar base. Jez and his ilk are perceived as lacking in "patriotism" - inverteds used not because I dispute the claim but because the word means different things to different people.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
Can’t you just let it be ?
Well their economic policies were certainly popular Back in the USSR.
The British General Election of 1923, was held on December 9th. Had a 71.1% turnout.
Called by a new Conservative Prime Minister who wanted a mandate for his economic policy of of protectionism. However The Tories lost seats to Labour and The Liberals. A minority Labour Ministry was formed.
Pedant hat ON
It was a Unionist prime minister. The Unionists did not readopt the name Conservative until 1925, and even then some of their MPs refused to use it (e.g. Neville Chamberlain).
Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə) n 1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture 2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
By that definition, outlawing FGM and forced marriage is 'Islamophoblic'. Or condemning the disgusting Muslim rape gangs operating in towns and cities up and down this country is 'Islamophobic'. Or crticising the pitiless ritualised slaughter of livestock is 'Islamophobic'. 'Islamophobe' is not a term used in any objective sense. It is a highly emotive and subjective term. So too is 'anti Semite'. And yes - there are legtimate criticisms of Israeli foreign policy and there are legitimate criticsms of Jewish conservative orthodoxy, including the equally cruel Khosher ritualised slaughter.
If you accept that we live under the Western democratic principle, which I strongly believe in, then individuals must have the right to question and criticse ANYTHING they wish to without being denounced as a 'racist' or a 'bigot' or an 'Islamophobe' or an 'anti Semite'.
There is a vast difference between inciting violence and spouting genuine hatred through a loudspeaker at public rallies and being able to coolly and dispationately criticise a system of beliefs or culture which is the polar opposite of your own. Equally, I'm guessing the vast majority of practising Muslims detest very many things that are entwined in British culture (and I would personally agree with several of those things), however, I don't see any public figure or any media mouthpiece denouncing them as 'Anglophobes'.
We either belive in freedom of speech and expression - warts and all (with limits on obvious things like inciting violence and terrorism) - or we do not, and if we do not, and we denounce everything and anyone as being a fascist or a 'phobe' if they express a view we don't believe in, then we do not live in a free, democratic country. That freedom to express and question and criticise must be applied to all of us equally all of the time - or none of us.
The much talked of ‘Labour Leavers’ appears already to be with the BXP. Plenty of Tory remainers there, still.
The Lib Dems need to squeeze the Tory Remain vote, but they probably need Labour to be doing a bit worse before people feel free to risk it.
Nonsense. YouGov had Lib Dems in second place in SE and SW England. Corbyn is not the alternative to BoZo, the yellow peril are.
Spoiler: Jo Swinson will not be PM. The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th.
I see that Mr Mark is still carrying out his orders from Tory HQ. Belittle Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems in whatever way you can dream up. She - and they - are far more credible that the burbling incompetent the Tories have fronting their campaign.
"Tory Swinson" (BJO) repeat ad nauseum on pb.
The statement "The LibDems are a self-important and frankly ridiculous sideshow regarding who will be the occupant of Number 10 on December 13th." shows an extraordinary lack of political imagination.
Yes it is very unlikely she will be PM. However, imagine this scenario: It is a hung parliament. Conservatives have most seats, but less than Labour and LD combined. Jo Swinson will not (quite correctly) support a Corbyn government. Jezza decides to spend more time with his allotment in exchange for the LDs supporting Emily Thornberry for PM with Jo Swinson in some senior position, plus other LDs. Jo Swinson is not BEING the PM, but she is DECIDING. A vote for LD is not a vote for Corbyn, quite the opposite, it is a vote for moderate non extreme government, and one I will be very happy with.
The leaflet she sent out to everyone was introducing Jo Swinson, Prime Minister.
Not "some senior position in a Labour Govt. with SNP and LibDem support."
So we agree she will not be PM. Her first introduction to many of the electorate is that she is another lying politico. No better than the rest.
I thought you were all in favour of politicians being absurd optimists? Or is that only if they wear a blue rosette? When did optimism get redefined as lying, someone needs to tell Mr Johnson asap.
The British General Election of 1923, was held on December 9th. Had a 71.1% turnout.
Called by a new Conservative Prime Minister who wanted a mandate for his economic policy of of protectionism. However The Tories lost seats to Labour and The Liberals. A minority Labour Ministry was formed.
Pedant hat ON
It was a Unionist prime minister. The Unionists did not readopt the name Conservative until 1925, and even then some of their MPs refused to use it (e.g. Neville Chamberlain).
Pedant hat OFF.
Conservative & Unionist Party dates from 1912.
Yes, but until 1925 they called themselves Unionists. It wasn't until 1925 they rebranded using the name of Conservative, and as I noted, it wasn't a universally popular decision either with the surviving Liberal Unionists.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
woody662 said: "Canvassing anecdotes from the East Mids this morning, Tory vote seems stable, Lib Dems picking a bit up, Labour support is very soft, in fact I had a Labour member say they were voting Tory to get rid of Corbyn. No one saying the Brexit party."
I live in E Mids. Anecdotally, the straw poll of my friends and family is exactly consistent with this. I`m amazed that some folk who I had nailed-on for The Brexit Party are to vote Tory. Some are quite critical of Farage.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
I understand that to many, all this will sound overwrought. I’m afraid that Jewish history has made us that way, prone to imagining the worst. We look at our usually sparse family trees and we can pick out the pessimists, those who panicked and got out. It was they who left their mark on us. You see, the optimists, those who assumed things would work out for the best, they never made it out in time.
MarqueeMark said: "The leaflet she sent out to everyone was introducing Jo Swinson, Prime Minister.
Not "some senior position in a Labour Govt. with SNP and LibDem support."
So we agree she will not be PM. Her first introduction to many of the electorate is that she is another lying politico. No better than the rest."
I think this is a bit harsh. LibDems need to get more seats that Lab. If they do, then there would be no Tory majority. In this scenario we could see a coalition headed by Swinson.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
Can’t you just let it be ?
Not since Yesterday.
It seems that nobody has EVER trusted Nigel Farage with a Westminster seat.
That says a lot about Farage and his party's chances
Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə) n 1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture 2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
By that definition, outlawing FGM and forced marriage is 'Islamophoblic'. Or condemning the disgusting Muslim rape gangs operating in towns and cities up and down this country is 'Islamophobic'. Or crticising the pitiless ritualised slaughter of livestock is 'Islamophobic'. 'Islamophobe' is not a term used in any objective sense. It is a highly emotive and subjective term. So too is 'anti Semite'. And yes - there are legtimate criticisms of Israeli foreign policy and there are legitimate criticsms of Jewish conservative orthodoxy, including the equally cruel Khosher ritualised slaughter.
If you accept that we live under the Western democratic principle, which I strongly believe in, then individuals must have the right to question and criticse ANYTHING they wish to without being denounced as a 'racist' or a 'bigot' or an 'Islamophobe' or an 'anti Semite'.
There is a vast difference between inciting violence and spouting genuine hatred through a loudspeaker at public rallies and being able to coolly and dispationately criticise a system of beliefs or culture which is the polar opposite of your own. Equally, I'm guessing the vast majority of practising Muslims detest very many things that are entwined in British culture (and I would personally agree with several of those things), however, I don't see any public figure or any media mouthpiece denouncing them as 'Anglophobes'.
We either belive in freedom of speech and expression - warts and all (with limits on obvious things like inciting violence and terrorism) - or we do not, and if we do not, and we denounce everything and anyone as being a fascist or a 'phobe' if they express a view we don't believe in, then we do not live in a free, democratic country. That freedom to express and question and criticise must be applied to all of us equally all of the time - or none of us.
"By that definition, outlawing FGM and forced marriage is 'Islamophoblic'." No, it's not - that doesn't come under "hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture".
Lots of excitement on Betfair around Bloomberg filing to be on the ballot in Alabama, no excitement on Betfair about Hillary Clinton not doing so. Still at 20/1 or so. Fill your boots betting against.
Wonder if the market will wake up when she misses the NH deadline on 15 Nov?
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
The British General Election of 1923, was held on December 9th. Had a 71.1% turnout.
Called by a new Conservative Prime Minister who wanted a mandate for his economic policy of of protectionism. However The Tories lost seats to Labour and The Liberals. A minority Labour Ministry was formed.
Pedant hat ON
It was a Unionist prime minister. The Unionists did not readopt the name Conservative until 1925, and even then some of their MPs refused to use it (e.g. Neville Chamberlain).
Pedant hat OFF.
Conservative & Unionist Party dates from 1912.
Yes, but until 1925 they called themselves Unionists. It wasn't until 1925 they rebranded using the name of Conservative, and as I noted, it wasn't a universally popular decision either with the surviving Liberal Unionists.
Conservatives stood in the 1922 and 1923 elections.
It does seem a bit odd that on a coach full of journalists and MPs from other parties, no-one recorded it or published it until now, more than 18 months later.
The party must do something, but what?
Use it as their campaign song?
If they want a Beatles campaign song, I would have thought 'Help!' would be better than 'Hey Jude.'
"Islamophobia" was a concept invented by Iranian fundamentalists in the late 1970's to suppress moderate muslims who questioned the Koran or who wanted freedom for women.
It's now used as a catch all phrase to cover or ban any criticism of the religion of Islam and it seems, any comments against middle eastern or some south Asian countries or people.
Not the same as antisemitism at all.
Sounds like you are more concerned about what to call anti Muslim bigotry than about anti Muslim bigotry.
We live in a free country. People should be free to practice whatever religion they like. Equally, everyone should be equally free to criticise religion in anyway they like.
MCB and Warsi try to close down any criticism of their chosen religion. I'm not aware of any similar attempts to silence criticism of the Church of England or Catholicism.
I understand that to many, all this will sound overwrought. I’m afraid that Jewish history has made us that way, prone to imagining the worst. We look at our usually sparse family trees and we can pick out the pessimists, those who panicked and got out. It was they who left their mark on us. You see, the optimists, those who assumed things would work out for the best, they never made it out in time.
Eloquent as this is, I do find it overwrought to the point of absurdity.
Tonight is the anniversary of Kristallnacht. A pogrom in what was thought to be the most civilised country in western Europe, probably the world at that time. I tend to cut them a little slack.
Trying to trace the ancestry of political parties is a fiendishly complicated business. The Conservatives, for example, date their existence to one of 1912 (the merger with the Liberal Unionists) 1846 (the formation of the Protectionist party) 1834 (the Tamworth manifesto which formally adopted the name 'Conservative' in use colloquially since about 1827) the rupture of the Whigs and Portland's junction with Pitt (1794) or the Exclusion Crisis of 1679 when the word 'Tory' was first used to describe opponents of the attempt to set aside the Duke of York from the Royal Succession.
Any of those dates could have some validity. Any of them dating back to 1846 would arguably make the Conservatives the world's oldest political party. But at the same time, there has been so much schisming, politicking, intrigue and changes that it's a very risky business to say the party of REdmond O'Hanlan is that of Boris Johnson.
We have the same problem with the Liberal Democrats. When do they date from? Well, officially 1988. But, we could argue they date from 1859 with the merger of the Whig and Radical parties. Or, to be a bit trickier, we could again go back to the Exclusion Crisis of 1679 when Shaftesbury was trying to get rid of York. Which one is correct? Well, the current Liberal party would definitely say the Liberal Democrats are nothing to do with them...but the party hierarchy under David Steele would disagree.
American politics is scarcely better. For example, most American authors and therefore Wikipedia claim the Democratic party as the world's oldest party. They offer the foundation date of around 1801, under Jefferson, as Democratic-Republicans, or 1828, under Andrew JAckson. But if we're entirely honest, that's a very dubious claim given that the current Democratic party was effectively formed by a breakaway group under Stephen Douglas in 1860 - the previous version being dominated by Southerners and therefore consumed in the Civil War. Indeed, arguably given there was a further major schism in 1948 which could have been said to lead to a new party even that date is too early, although that's made easier by the fact that the party was in power at the time and the party machine remained under the power of the incumbent President.
It's all great fun and keeps many historians in business.
Comments
It's been treated as a problem of process and PR rather than of taking a deep long look into the left's political culture and how that creates these problems that keep growing the bad apples (true, of course of the right on other issues).
Therefore, any act which referred to Wales always referred to ‘Wales’ (those areas which came under the jurisdiction of Ludlow) and ‘Monmouthshire’ because of this separate legal system, not for any other reason. ‘South Wales and Monmouthshire,’ therefore, referred to the three counties in the South Wales circuit which off-hand I think were Brecon, Glamorgan and Pembroke, and the separate circuit of Monmouthshire, which was part of South Wales geographically but not linked to the South Wales legal circuit. A bit like referring to ‘Gloucestershire and Bristol.’
It is worth pointing out that the Acts of Union, which allotted 26 MPs to Wales,* made this clear by assigning only one MP to Merioneth and three to Monmouthshire.
*This was increased to 27 after Henry VIII declared that at his personal pleasure Haverfordwest would have a separate MP.
I don’t think that a single post should be taken to reflect someone’s entire world view though.
The HuffPo article was amusingly constructed though. They had one of her tweets (I forget exactly but something like Low taxes, slash red tape - simplistic but not outrageous) immediately followed by an outraged comment from a Labour shadow minister that someone with those views has no place in public life
1) I'm not convinced that economic left v economic right firs neatly into poor vs rich in terms of winners and losers. It's more complex than that and depends on individual circumstance. I would of course argue that most are richer with economic liberalism, but you and I will have to agree to differ on that! But fot amswering your question, the important point is that not all of the poor agree with your interpretation of how their economic interests are best served.
2) I would also argue - and you may not agree, but what is important is the perception of voters- that Corbynism would be economically disastrous for everyone, rich and pooor. The rich have more to lose but the poor are less able to shield themselves from the impact of economic meltdown. To which you would reasonably counter well what about the economic impact of Brexit, to which I would reply that that is a fair point but that the economic impact of Venezuelafication is much worse.
3) Politics is decreasingly economic and increasingly cultural (cf American politics). If you are a spot welder from Stoke obviously Boris is from another tribe, but not as obviously alien a tribe as Jeremy with his curious obsessions with the Middle East, or even the wider left and their obsession with identity politics and theirapparent disdain for your values. And people don't vote for parties who don't appear to like them very much.
You can tell me that all of these are wrong: that Jeremy is interested in lots of things besides the Middle East, that the Emily Thornberrys of the party are not representative, that most Labour MPs are decent and normal people. But the important thing isn't what you or I tjink, it's the perception of voters.
The works of Snyder are a good introduction into Putin's embrace of fascist ideas: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-philosopher-of-russian-fascism/
You're right about the Eurasian nationalism, but this is actually similar to Hitler's vision of the unification of greater Germany. It's founded on psychosexual and pseudoreligious grounds and a deep irrationalism that is very reminiscent of Nazism. It is definitely not the same as Nazism, by the way, but fascism is a bit wider than that.
Good afternoon, everyone.
Yes it is very unlikely she will be PM. However, imagine this scenario: It is a hung parliament. Conservatives have most seats, but less than Labour and LD combined. Jo Swinson will not (quite correctly) support a Corbyn government. Jezza decides to spend more time with his allotment in exchange for the LDs supporting Emily Thornberry for PM with Jo Swinson in some senior position, plus other LDs. Jo Swinson is not BEING the PM, but she is DECIDING. A vote for LD is not a vote for Corbyn, quite the opposite, it is a vote for moderate non extreme government, and one I will be very happy with.
https://wales247.co.uk/this-is-the-first-map-of-wales-produced-by-humphrey-llwyd/
Among other significant consequences it would gift Wales another first-class cricket team.
That, in a nutshell, is why ordinary working people despise the establishment parties.
I am not a Conservative and I don't like Warsi. If I'm able to separate that from taking her seriously on this issue, anybody should be able to.
I predict he won't make much of an impact.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/12295.html
Ah, my coat...
Alas, only a couple more races and the pleasant diversion of F1 will not be there to distract us from political nonsense until next year.
Not "some senior position in a Labour Govt. with SNP and LibDem support."
So we agree she will not be PM. Her first introduction to many of the electorate is that she is another lying politico. No better than the rest.
It's now used as a catch all phrase to cover or ban any criticism of the religion of Islam and it seems, any comments against middle eastern or some south Asian countries or people.
Not the same as antisemitism at all.
That's it Jezza, give it some legs
n
1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
Seems like the 9th was at the beginning of a period of warmer weather after a cold and snowy end to November/start of December.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/09/jews-brexit-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn
Quiet smiley in this meeting, I daresay she wouldn't look quite so pleased next time she has to shake the paw of Britain Trump.
https://twitter.com/CardiffPlaid/status/837425661887279104?s=20
Birmingham Hall Green: Tahir Ali. He is a Birmingham Cll
West Bromwich East: Ibrahim Dogus. He is a Cllr in Lambeth and was convincingly beaten in the selection of Vauxhall
The party must do something, but what?
How do the SNP get above 50.
Even on the last YouGov which is a 20 point lead the SNP only get to 50. It seems like less that 50.5 is far better odds than the 8/11 on offer.
Every single one of these people who are caught making anti semitic comments should be thrown out of the party straight away. But there is a great danger right now of taking any claim as fact. Hearsay is no grounds for ruining someones reputation.
Your point 3 is more where I think the biggest problem lies for Corbynite Labour as pertaining to its lack of appeal (if such is indeed demonstrated by this GE) to its traditional blue collar base. Jez and his ilk are perceived as lacking in "patriotism" - inverteds used not because I dispute the claim but because the word means different things to different people.
https://twitter.com/MascotSilence/status/1193140302946586624?s=20
Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə)
n
1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
By that definition, outlawing FGM and forced marriage is 'Islamophoblic'. Or condemning the disgusting Muslim rape gangs operating in towns and cities up and down this country is 'Islamophobic'. Or crticising the pitiless ritualised slaughter of livestock is 'Islamophobic'. 'Islamophobe' is not a term used in any objective sense. It is a highly emotive and subjective term. So too is 'anti Semite'. And yes - there are legtimate criticisms of Israeli foreign policy and there are legitimate criticsms of Jewish conservative orthodoxy, including the equally cruel Khosher ritualised slaughter.
If you accept that we live under the Western democratic principle, which I strongly believe in, then individuals must have the right to question and criticse ANYTHING they wish to without being denounced as a 'racist' or a 'bigot' or an 'Islamophobe' or an 'anti Semite'.
There is a vast difference between inciting violence and spouting genuine hatred through a loudspeaker at public rallies and being able to coolly and dispationately criticise a system of beliefs or culture which is the polar opposite of your own. Equally, I'm guessing the vast majority of practising Muslims detest very many things that are entwined in British culture (and I would personally agree with several of those things), however, I don't see any public figure or any media mouthpiece denouncing them as 'Anglophobes'.
We either belive in freedom of speech and expression - warts and all (with limits on obvious things like inciting violence and terrorism) - or we do not, and if we do not, and we denounce everything and anyone as being a fascist or a 'phobe' if they express a view we don't believe in, then we do not live in a free, democratic country. That freedom to express and question and criticise must be applied to all of us equally all of the time - or none of us.
https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1193160701709291520?s=20
I live in E Mids. Anecdotally, the straw poll of my friends and family is exactly consistent with this. I`m amazed that some folk who I had nailed-on for The Brexit Party are to vote Tory. Some are quite critical of Farage.
Not "some senior position in a Labour Govt. with SNP and LibDem support."
So we agree she will not be PM. Her first introduction to many of the electorate is that she is another lying politico. No better than the rest."
I think this is a bit harsh. LibDems need to get more seats that Lab. If they do, then there would be no Tory majority. In this scenario we could see a coalition headed by Swinson.
Not got any money on it though obviously.
That says a lot about Farage and his party's chances
If you accept that we live under the Western democratic principle, which I strongly believe in, then individuals must have the right to question and criticse ANYTHING they wish to without being denounced as a 'racist' or a 'bigot' or an 'Islamophobe' or an 'anti Semite'.
There is a vast difference between inciting violence and spouting genuine hatred through a loudspeaker at public rallies and being able to coolly and dispationately criticise a system of beliefs or culture which is the polar opposite of your own. Equally, I'm guessing the vast majority of practising Muslims detest very many things that are entwined in British culture (and I would personally agree with several of those things), however, I don't see any public figure or any media mouthpiece denouncing them as 'Anglophobes'.
We either belive in freedom of speech and expression - warts and all (with limits on obvious things like inciting violence and terrorism) - or we do not, and if we do not, and we denounce everything and anyone as being a fascist or a 'phobe' if they express a view we don't believe in, then we do not live in a free, democratic country. That freedom to express and question and criticise must be applied to all of us equally all of the time - or none of us.
"By that definition, outlawing FGM and forced marriage is 'Islamophoblic'."
No, it's not - that doesn't come under "hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture".
Wonder if the market will wake up when she misses the NH deadline on 15 Nov?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_United_Kingdom_general_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923_United_Kingdom_general_election
MCB and Warsi try to close down any criticism of their chosen religion. I'm not aware of any similar attempts to silence criticism of the Church of England or Catholicism.
Any of those dates could have some validity. Any of them dating back to 1846 would arguably make the Conservatives the world's oldest political party. But at the same time, there has been so much schisming, politicking, intrigue and changes that it's a very risky business to say the party of REdmond O'Hanlan is that of Boris Johnson.
We have the same problem with the Liberal Democrats. When do they date from? Well, officially 1988. But, we could argue they date from 1859 with the merger of the Whig and Radical parties. Or, to be a bit trickier, we could again go back to the Exclusion Crisis of 1679 when Shaftesbury was trying to get rid of York. Which one is correct? Well, the current Liberal party would definitely say the Liberal Democrats are nothing to do with them...but the party hierarchy under David Steele would disagree.
American politics is scarcely better. For example, most American authors and therefore Wikipedia claim the Democratic party as the world's oldest party. They offer the foundation date of around 1801, under Jefferson, as Democratic-Republicans, or 1828, under Andrew JAckson. But if we're entirely honest, that's a very dubious claim given that the current Democratic party was effectively formed by a breakaway group under Stephen Douglas in 1860 - the previous version being dominated by Southerners and therefore consumed in the Civil War. Indeed, arguably given there was a further major schism in 1948 which could have been said to lead to a new party even that date is too early, although that's made easier by the fact that the party was in power at the time and the party machine remained under the power of the incumbent President.
It's all great fun and keeps many historians in business.