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  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    egg said:

    but That will likely be revoke win

    That's the idea.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    Actually, the answer is "No, we wouldn't"
    You'd have to be more naive than I take you for to believe that.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    Barclay has impressed me since he`s joined the cabinet - anyone see him as a possible futiure Tory leader?
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    Actually, the answer is "No, we wouldn't"
    Oh, well, prove it.
    Anyone with deductive powers just knows
    You think you can "deduce" that state of a counterfactual world 3+ years on from the divergence? Congratulations on being an interdimensional traveller. Please tell us whether there's a parallel universe in which having any kind of conversation with you is worth my while. And if there is, feck off there and carry on.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    amen
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    "infesting"? FFS.
  • egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    Yep. Any shortcut and I think they will incur the wrath of the Electoral Commission.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    Actually, the answer is "No, we wouldn't"
    Oh, well, prove it.
    Anyone with deductive powers just knows
    You think you can "deduce" that state of a counterfactual world 3+ years on from the divergence? Congratulations on being an interdimensional traveller. Please tell us whether there's a parallel universe in which having any kind of conversation with you is worth my while. And if there is, feck off there and carry on.
    Ooh "feck"! You rascal!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    egg said:

    The next thing I expect to happen is Labour making big hookah about Governments changes to PD they will try and use to be build an alliance.

    I know Mays PD has been changed by Boris, exactly what the beef is on the labour benches needs to be spelt out to me. Could some of our Labour friends Who post here explain what Labour’s problem is with the changes Boris made to PD and why it is such an issue?

    Items were moved from the WA (legally binding) to the PD (not). They don't want to take back control
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Stocky said:

    Barclay has impressed me since he`s joined the cabinet - anyone see him as a possible futiure Tory leader?

    Rishi Sunak for me, although a bit quick
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    edited October 2019
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    "infesting"? FFS.
    Yep a word chosen very carefully to reflect exactly what I think of the current rabble on all sides.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,122
    For maximum theatre, the WAIB could contain a date for the next election.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    You're giving them ideas, stop it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897
    We probably shouldn't have any more referendums, on anything. Since Parliament is sovereign and the potential for conflict is too great with any result from direct democracy it should just be whatever Parliament says.

    So Sturgeon should simply be able to lay a bill before the Scottish Parliament outwith any referendum if she's granted the Section 30.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    Yep. Any shortcut and I think they will incur the wrath of the Electoral Commission.
    I think its 22 weeks if the commission does things in parallel and they really don't want to do that unless they had to.
  • Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    "infesting"? FFS.
    I think that's quite restrained
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited October 2019

    Its not a loophole, it was an explicit option in the Benn Act that if Parliament agreed a deal no letter was needed, so deciding not to vote on the deal does not close a loophole it goes against what was passed in the Benn Act.

    The Benn Act was badly drafted to be in this mess. Perhaps it should have said that a letter would need to be sent unless Parliament had passed a Withdrawal Act but it didn't.

    But it IS in practice a loophole in the scheme to make No Deal a zero possibility.

    Pass the MV today, Benn letter withdrawn, then WAIB perhaps fails or is delayed, we No Deal on 31 Oct.

    It doesn't matter if you think that in reality this is paranoia and/or filibustering, the point is if the MV came again today, so would the same amendment - for the same reasons - ergo a guaranteed repeat of Saturday.

    As Bercow said - repetitive and disorderly.

    He is clearly right on this occasion. It's logic and logic is free of bias.
  • egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    It was said that 22 weeks is needed for the campaign but frankly short of a GE it likely to get bogged down with an unco-operative HOC and even then it needs to go to the electoral commission for the wording

    Furthermore, any attempt at missing no deal off the ballot would see Farage and others in the Supreme Court faster than Gina Miller

    For these reasons I just do not see it happening

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    We would have a minority Conservative govt and an opposition getting 40%, both elected by committing to Europhile policies with the only Eurosceptic party getting 7%, and Leave defeated in a referendum, if the roles were the reverse of what we have now.

    Of course, in reality there would have been swathes of MPs elected on a Leave mandate, but that isn't what happened in 2017 for Remain.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Chris said:



    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why did the government propose another vote?

    It would have known that it was not in order. It’s just another cynical attempt by the government to increase the divisions, return to an atmosphere of hostility and feed the mob.

    More to the point even if Bercow had ruled it in order, why on earth did they think it would not be amended in exactly the same way again this time - with the additional annoyance of having wasted yet more time on it and probably lost a few more votes for bills and amendments further down the line.
    Is it possible they didn't realise that a yes vote would enable Johnson to withdraw his letter? Or that they thought enough MPs didn't realise that?
    I don't know Chris. As I said the other day this has all got so convoluted I have no idea what the implications are of any of these actions at the moment. The fact that even the journalists who are supposed to make a living out of explaining this stuff to us seemed to be unclear about whether the MV passed or not kind of shows how daft it has all become.

    They should just get on and debate the WAIB. Make some bloody decisions.
    According to the BBC, the bill is being published in about an hour's time. As far as I know, the second reading is still scheduled for tomorrow.

    What the point of today's hoo-hah was, I'm not sure.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    egg said:

    Ken Clarke says he is happy for the deal to pass by the 31st but subject to proper scrutiny

    There they go again the wavey mavises, exactly what I have been saying in this thread right on que! 🙄 It’s not exactly yes is it because there is only so much endless fillabustering and trying to tweak things Boris and his deal can take before EU slaps a strapping extension on us saying sort yourselves out your a shower.
    Or say no extension. Get it sorted now or out you go.
    I think EU will lean towards extension rather than no deal wouldn’t they? But a long one so we can have GE or 2nd ref when winter is out the way? Is anyone keeping an ear out for Number times a EU or member state politician mentions second ref in the last week, they mention it all the time. 👂
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, but the reason was that they wanted the letter to be sent. That it now has been is a material change of circumstances.

    To be clear, I think Bercow was right, but I can see the argument on the other side.

    They wanted the letter sent AND the WAIB passed. If the MV passed today, Johnson could withdraw the letter, hence reopening the No Deal loophole. So the same amendment would have been needed to close it - Groundhog Day.
    Its not a loophole, it was an explicit option in the Benn Act that if Parliament agreed a deal no letter was needed, so deciding not to vote on the deal does not close a loophole it goes against what was passed in the Benn Act.

    The Benn Act was badly drafted to be in this mess. Perhaps it should have said that a letter would need to be sent unless Parliament had passed a Withdrawal Act but it didn't.
    Probably the trouble was that, given the timing of the European Council meeting, that would have put the deadline too close to 31 October.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited October 2019
    Apparently the government will have to put something in the WAIB to get round the Treaty provisions regarding having to have 21 days before it can be ratified.
  • Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
    No one would have taken over from Cameron. He campaigned on staying in the EU and would have won his referendum. There would have been no reason for him to be replaced. He would have been able to say he had given the country the voice he promised and they had backed him.

    When even such committed Eurosceptics as me would have accepted that, for all we would have hated it, there is no chance at all there would have been any viable support for a second referendum. And quite rightly as well.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897
    Chris said:

    Chris said:



    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why did the government propose another vote?

    It would have known that it was not in order. It’s just another cynical attempt by the government to increase the divisions, return to an atmosphere of hostility and feed the mob.

    More to the point even if Bercow had ruled it in order, why on earth did they think it would not be amended in exactly the same way again this time - with the additional annoyance of having wasted yet more time on it and probably lost a few more votes for bills and amendments further down the line.
    Is it possible they didn't realise that a yes vote would enable Johnson to withdraw his letter? Or that they thought enough MPs didn't realise that?
    I don't know Chris. As I said the other day this has all got so convoluted I have no idea what the implications are of any of these actions at the moment. The fact that even the journalists who are supposed to make a living out of explaining this stuff to us seemed to be unclear about whether the MV passed or not kind of shows how daft it has all become.

    They should just get on and debate the WAIB. Make some bloody decisions.
    According to the BBC, the bill is being published in about an hour's time. As far as I know, the second reading is still scheduled for tomorrow.

    What the point of today's hoo-hah was, I'm not sure.
    We need a meaningful vote according to the Letwin amendment still. I assume that comes after 3rd reading (And quickly) by acclamation at that stage :) ?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:



    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why did the government propose another vote?

    It would have known that it was not in order. It’s just another cynical attempt by the government to increase the divisions, return to an atmosphere of hostility and feed the mob.

    More to the point even if Bercow had ruled it in order, why on earth did they think it would not be amended in exactly the same way again this time - with the additional annoyance of having wasted yet more time on it and probably lost a few more votes for bills and amendments further down the line.
    Is it possible they didn't realise that a yes vote would enable Johnson to withdraw his letter? Or that they thought enough MPs didn't realise that?
    I don't know Chris. As I said the other day this has all got so convoluted I have no idea what the implications are of any of these actions at the moment. The fact that even the journalists who are supposed to make a living out of explaining this stuff to us seemed to be unclear about whether the MV passed or not kind of shows how daft it has all become.

    They should just get on and debate the WAIB. Make some bloody decisions.
    According to the BBC, the bill is being published in about an hour's time. As far as I know, the second reading is still scheduled for tomorrow.

    What the point of today's hoo-hah was, I'm not sure.
    We need a meaningful vote according to the Letwin amendment still. I assume that comes after 3rd reading (And quickly) by acclamation at that stage :) ?
    This is where I was unsure. Did the motion say we needed another vote or that the Motion was passed subject to the WAIB being passed by Parliament?
  • Chris said:

    Chris said:



    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why did the government propose another vote?

    It would have known that it was not in order. It’s just another cynical attempt by the government to increase the divisions, return to an atmosphere of hostility and feed the mob.

    More to the point even if Bercow had ruled it in order, why on earth did they think it would not be amended in exactly the same way again this time - with the additional annoyance of having wasted yet more time on it and probably lost a few more votes for bills and amendments further down the line.
    Is it possible they didn't realise that a yes vote would enable Johnson to withdraw his letter? Or that they thought enough MPs didn't realise that?
    I don't know Chris. As I said the other day this has all got so convoluted I have no idea what the implications are of any of these actions at the moment. The fact that even the journalists who are supposed to make a living out of explaining this stuff to us seemed to be unclear about whether the MV passed or not kind of shows how daft it has all become.

    They should just get on and debate the WAIB. Make some bloody decisions.
    According to the BBC, the bill is being published in about an hour's time. As far as I know, the second reading is still scheduled for tomorrow.

    What the point of today's hoo-hah was, I'm not sure.
    To be honest, and maybe not, but Cummings wargaming this knowing it would cause the speaker to be confronted and lots of noise and fury adding to the publics anger
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Remember CRAG? It's a fresh headache for the Govt's bid to pass the Brexit deal by October 31. The Constitutional Reform and Governance Act (2010) requires any treaty be laid before the House for 21 days before it can be ratified. The Brexit deal is such as treaty 1.

    Tweet from Tom Newton Dunn
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    It was said that 22 weeks is needed for the campaign but frankly short of a GE it likely to get bogged down with an unco-operative HOC and even then it needs to go to the electoral commission for the wording

    Furthermore, any attempt at missing no deal off the ballot would see Farage and others in the Supreme Court faster than Gina Miller

    For these reasons I just do not see it happening

    Yes anything more than 2 clear options on a ballot would be a farce. The whole point of a second vote is to create clarity not more confusion. You couldn’t put votes for Boris deal and Farage No deal together and say brexit won any more than votes for the labour CU brexit and votes for the Lib Dem revoke together, it’s four different things.
  • Scott_P said:
    No wonder Bozzy Bear wanted to ram this through without any scrutiny.


    I withdraw (some of) my remarks about the DUP, I don't blame them for going tonto over this,
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Rumours that the government might try and put something in the WAIB which means second reading is effectively MV6.

    I’m not sure though of the legalities and technicalities of this.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    edited October 2019
    Yorkcity said:

    Remember CRAG? It's a fresh headache for the Govt's bid to pass the Brexit deal by October 31. The Constitutional Reform and Governance Act (2010) requires any treaty be laid before the House for 21 days before it can be ratified. The Brexit deal is such as treaty 1.

    Tweet from Tom Newton Dunn

    There's a get out clause

    (1)Section 20 does not apply to a treaty if a Minister of the Crown is of the opinion that, exceptionally, the treaty should be ratified without the requirements of that section having been met.

    It just requires a confirmatory vote.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897

    Scott_P said:
    No wonder Bozzy Bear wanted to ram this through without any scrutiny.


    I withdraw (some of) my remarks about the DUP, I don't blame them for going tonto over this,
    They'll get a vote in parliament on it, same as everyone else.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    Scott_P said:
    Not how I understand it. Once letwin amendment passed the motion wasn’t the same, was it?
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    They have been rejected as they do not have majority support! The fourth time has not been voted down yet, although the govt seem to be doing their best to antagonise the swing MPs - again if they focussed on winning winnable votes in parliament rather than playing to the social media and brexit press galleries they would get it done quite quickly.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:
    It was a major strategic mistake. Now the votes take place in the wrong order from their perspective.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
    No one would have taken over from Cameron. He campaigned on staying in the EU and would have won his referendum. There would have been no reason for him to be replaced. He would have been able to say he had given the country the voice he promised and they had backed him.

    When even such committed Eurosceptics as me would have accepted that, for all we would have hated it, there is no chance at all there would have been any viable support for a second referendum. And quite rightly as well.
    This view is completely divorced from the reality of Tory party politics. He had already pre-resigned and the manner in which he conducted the referendum meant he would have been forced out in short order anyway.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Scott_P said:
    Didn't there used to be some kind of document you had to fill out on the plane when flying to Belfast from England ? Certainly in the 1990s.
  • egg said:

    egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    It was said that 22 weeks is needed for the campaign but frankly short of a GE it likely to get bogged down with an unco-operative HOC and even then it needs to go to the electoral commission for the wording

    Furthermore, any attempt at missing no deal off the ballot would see Farage and others in the Supreme Court faster than Gina Miller

    For these reasons I just do not see it happening

    Yes anything more than 2 clear options on a ballot would be a farce. The whole point of a second vote is to create clarity not more confusion. You couldn’t put votes for Boris deal and Farage No deal together and say brexit won any more than votes for the labour CU brexit and votes for the Lib Dem revoke together, it’s four different things.
    Just demonstrates how complex a referendum is and to be honest nobody seems to want to discuss the practicalities and no doubt haven't even thought it through themselves
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    nico67 said:

    Rumours that the government might try and put something in the WAIB which means second reading is effectively MV6.

    I’m not sure though of the legalities and technicalities of this.

    On a lighter note I see media outlets today saying MV3 or 4, covering themselves because technically, as Bernard from yes minister would say, as KLE pointed out we haven’t reached three yet. Unless Saturday has to count as three, but there is some dispute about that?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897

    Scott_P said:
    It was a major strategic mistake. Now the votes take place in the wrong order from their perspective.
    How do they contest the vote on Saturday though - Shout "Noe" to the amended motion !?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Scott_P said:
    It was a major strategic mistake. Now the votes take place in the wrong order from their perspective.
    I don't get this. The motion was amended so there was nothing to vote on. They were just outmanoeuvred by Letwin.
  • Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
    Yep this is someone else who doesn't know what they are talking about. Once the Letwin amendment was passed there was nothing left to contest.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    egg said:

    egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    It was said that 22 weeks is needed for the campaign but frankly short of a GE it likely to get bogged down with an unco-operative HOC and even then it needs to go to the electoral commission for the wording

    Furthermore, any attempt at missing no deal off the ballot would see Farage and others in the Supreme Court faster than Gina Miller

    For these reasons I just do not see it happening

    Yes anything more than 2 clear options on a ballot would be a farce. The whole point of a second vote is to create clarity not more confusion. You couldn’t put votes for Boris deal and Farage No deal together and say brexit won any more than votes for the labour CU brexit and votes for the Lib Dem revoke together, it’s four different things.
    Just demonstrates how complex a referendum is and to be honest nobody seems to want to discuss the practicalities and no doubt haven't even thought it through themselves
    Good point. Whilst Simultaneously pushing for one for years now.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The DUP are going to implode at the admission by Barclay regarding customs declarations.

    This is not what was implied by Johnson, if you need to fill in declarations then you’re no longer in the same customs territory.

    What a surprise, the pathological liar has lied again !
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:
    It was a major strategic mistake. Now the votes take place in the wrong order from their perspective.
    I remain unconvinced this is not a Dominic Cummings double bluff in order to achieve a general election before Brexit. This sequence is what Boris wanted from Jeremy Corbyn just last month, and still offers the best chance of reelection.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I’m frankly amazed that the media still don’t understand what happened on Saturday .

    The amended motion was no longer a MV.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Scott_P said:
    No wonder Bozzy Bear wanted to ram this through without any scrutiny.


    I withdraw (some of) my remarks about the DUP, I don't blame them for going tonto over this,
    It is a very simple three page form, and I am sure an even more simplified version will be made. This is Ian Dunt's guerilla warfare strategy of making mountains out of molehills.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    nico67 said:

    I’m frankly amazed that the media still don’t understand what happened on Saturday .

    The amended motion was no longer a MV.

    Agreed. But then why did Bercow claim a MV can't be held as it is substantively the same as Saturday's motion?
  • egg said:

    egg said:

    egg said:

    Steve Barclay just challenged Corbyn and Starmer to come clean on just how long a referendum would take and how long an extension would be needed

    They both looked as if they had been caught in the headlights

    Given that it has assumed control of Brexit from the Government, for the remainder of this parliament would it not be more meaningful for there to be Questions to the Leader of the Opposition every noon on Wednesdays?
    When we’ve discussed second votes before the logistics take at least six months doesn’t it?
    It was said that 22 weeks is needed for the campaign but frankly short of a GE it likely to get bogged down with an unco-operative HOC and even then it needs to go to the electoral commission for the wording

    Furthermore, any attempt at missing no deal off the ballot would see Farage and others in the Supreme Court faster than Gina Miller

    For these reasons I just do not see it happening

    Yes anything more than 2 clear options on a ballot would be a farce. The whole point of a second vote is to create clarity not more confusion. You couldn’t put votes for Boris deal and Farage No deal together and say brexit won any more than votes for the labour CU brexit and votes for the Lib Dem revoke together, it’s four different things.
    Just demonstrates how complex a referendum is and to be honest nobody seems to want to discuss the practicalities and no doubt haven't even thought it through themselves
    Good point. Whilst Simultaneously pushing for one for years now.
    Like so much on brexit a referendum is banded around as the answer but without any detail or thought how it comes about
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
    No one would have taken over from Cameron. He campaigned on staying in the EU and would have won his referendum. There would have been no reason for him to be replaced. He would have been able to say he had given the country the voice he promised and they had backed him.

    When even such committed Eurosceptics as me would have accepted that, for all we would have hated it, there is no chance at all there would have been any viable support for a second referendum. And quite rightly as well.
    :smiley: Dont take this the wrong way but you will always have wanted out and maybe after a small period of procrastination should remain have won, you would be itching for leaving the EU! I respect your views because even though i disagree with them, you have taken the time to recommend a deal you think is optimal. I think the best deal is remaining in the EU but i am always sceptical about further intergration i.e. joining the euro is a big no no for me.
  • Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
    No one would have taken over from Cameron. He campaigned on staying in the EU and would have won his referendum. There would have been no reason for him to be replaced. He would have been able to say he had given the country the voice he promised and they had backed him.

    When even such committed Eurosceptics as me would have accepted that, for all we would have hated it, there is no chance at all there would have been any viable support for a second referendum. And quite rightly as well.
    This view is completely divorced from the reality of Tory party politics. He had already pre-resigned and the manner in which he conducted the referendum meant he would have been forced out in short order anyway.
    Of course he had not pre-resigned. He had even said he would stay on if he lost - and then went back on his word. The earliest he would have been looking at resigning would probably have been around now ready for the 2020 election. It is you who are rewriting history here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    nico67 said:

    I’m frankly amazed that the media still don’t understand what happened on Saturday .

    The amended motion was no longer a MV.

    What they perhaps could have done is back the amended motion and put it to a division so the narrative would have been a huge majority in favour, but that wouldn't have suited the parliament v people rhetoric they are going for.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    PaulM said:

    Scott_P said:
    Didn't there used to be some kind of document you had to fill out on the plane when flying to Belfast from England ? Certainly in the 1990s.
    Your will?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    Big_G_NorthWales said:
    "Just demonstrates how complex a referendum is and to be honest nobody seems to want to discuss the practicalities and no doubt haven't even thought it through themselves"

    Kyle is on Radio 4 sounding confident about having the majority for a confirmatory referendum.

    What would happen if the commons voted for a referendum? This would take something like 5 months to happen. Is it likely that EU would grant an extention to February in the knowledge that this would rule out a referendum?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    No we really wouldn't. Parliament would not have given it time of day. And they would have been absolutely right as well. The trouble is that this bunch of hypocrites currently infesting Parliament are not interested in doing the right thing, only in getting their own way no matter what the cost.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
    No one would have taken over from Cameron. He campaigned on staying in the EU and would have won his referendum. There would have been no reason for him to be replaced. He would have been able to say he had given the country the voice he promised and they had backed him.

    When even such committed Eurosceptics as me would have accepted that, for all we would have hated it, there is no chance at all there would have been any viable support for a second referendum. And quite rightly as well.
    This view is completely divorced from the reality of Tory party politics. He had already pre-resigned and the manner in which he conducted the referendum meant he would have been forced out in short order anyway.
    Of course he had not pre-resigned. He had even said he would stay on if he lost - and then went back on his word. The earliest he would have been looking at resigning would probably have been around now ready for the 2020 election. It is you who are rewriting history here.
    For the sake of argument, let's say he stayed on until now. Do you really think that talk of a second referendum wouldn't figure in the contest to replace him?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    nico67 said:

    The DUP are going to implode at the admission by Barclay regarding customs declarations.

    This is not what was implied by Johnson, if you need to fill in declarations then you’re no longer in the same customs territory.

    What a surprise, the pathological liar has lied again !

    This is simply untrue. The definition of a customs territory is a geographic area with the same customs duties.
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    They have been rejected as they do not have majority support! The fourth time has not been voted down yet, although the govt seem to be doing their best to antagonise the swing MPs - again if they focussed on winning winnable votes in parliament rather than playing to the social media and brexit press galleries they would get it done quite quickly.
    "They have been rejected as they do not have majority support" is a statement of the bleeding obvious. But the reason they didn't have majority support is because the various MPs were more interested in playing politics or stopping Brexit than they were in actually doing what they were elected to do.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited October 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    nico67 said:

    I’m frankly amazed that the media still don’t understand what happened on Saturday .

    The amended motion was no longer a MV.

    Agreed. But then why did Bercow claim a MV can't be held as it is substantively the same as Saturday's motion?
    Because it’s irrelevant what happened to the motion re amendments.

    The motion itself when it was on the order paper was a MV.

    Today’s is a MV.

    The key is the original motion itself. Not what happened to it after the amendments.
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    They have been rejected as they do not have majority support! The fourth time has not been voted down yet, although the govt seem to be doing their best to antagonise the swing MPs - again if they focussed on winning winnable votes in parliament rather than playing to the social media and brexit press galleries they would get it done quite quickly.
    "They have been rejected as they do not have majority support" is a statement of the bleeding obvious. But the reason they didn't have majority support is because the various MPs were more interested in playing politics or stopping Brexit than they were in actually doing what they were elected to do.
    I have no idea why you seem to exclude the government from your analysis when they set both the agenda and tone of enacting what they are elected to do.
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    They have been rejected as they do not have majority support! The fourth time has not been voted down yet, although the govt seem to be doing their best to antagonise the swing MPs - again if they focussed on winning winnable votes in parliament rather than playing to the social media and brexit press galleries they would get it done quite quickly.
    "They have been rejected as they do not have majority support" is a statement of the bleeding obvious. But the reason they didn't have majority support is because the various MPs were more interested in playing politics or stopping Brexit than they were in actually doing what they were elected to do.
    I have no idea why you seem to exclude the government from your analysis when they set both the agenda and tone of enacting what they are elected to do.
    Because they were the ones putting forward viable Deals which had been agreed with the EU.
  • Boris get his headlines

    No 10. 'Disappointed Speaker denied chance to deliver on the will of the people'

    Tomorrows headlines writ large

    Cummings is a genuius but I want him gone asap
  • The Brexit Secretary has today demonstrated that he does not understand key provisions of the withdrawal agreement. Given that, it is clearly in the best interests of the country (and the Brexit secretary personally) that it gets detailed scrutiny. If that means leaving slightly later than 31st October, so be it.
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    They have been rejected as they do not have majority support! The fourth time has not been voted down yet, although the govt seem to be doing their best to antagonise the swing MPs - again if they focussed on winning winnable votes in parliament rather than playing to the social media and brexit press galleries they would get it done quite quickly.
    "They have been rejected as they do not have majority support" is a statement of the bleeding obvious. But the reason they didn't have majority support is because the various MPs were more interested in playing politics or stopping Brexit than they were in actually doing what they were elected to do.
    I have no idea why you seem to exclude the government from your analysis when they set both the agenda and tone of enacting what they are elected to do.
    Because they were the ones putting forward viable Deals which had been agreed with the EU.
    Viable = winnable in parliament!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897

    nico67 said:

    I’m frankly amazed that the media still don’t understand what happened on Saturday .

    The amended motion was no longer a MV.

    What they perhaps could have done is back the amended motion and put it to a division so the narrative would have been a huge majority in favour, but that wouldn't have suited the parliament v people rhetoric they are going for.
    They did back the amended motion ! It was passed through by AYE on the nod.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    Stocky said:

    Barclay has impressed me since he`s joined the cabinet - anyone see him as a possible futiure Tory leader?

    He’s impressed me too. He’s serving two distinct leaders calmly and stoutly. Not one to ramp or rave or be rude, so when he speaks we listen.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
    Indeed. The government did win the motion as it passed on a voice vote. It's just that the motion was amended to no longer do what the government needed it to do.
  • nico67 said:

    The DUP are going to implode at the admission by Barclay regarding customs declarations.

    This is not what was implied by Johnson, if you need to fill in declarations then you’re no longer in the same customs territory.

    What a surprise, the pathological liar has lied again !

    They were not lying. They did not realise. They do not actually know what it is they have signed up to. If that is not the definitive argument for detailed scrutiny of the the agreement and the legislaiton I do not know what is.

  • egg said:

    Stocky said:

    Barclay has impressed me since he`s joined the cabinet - anyone see him as a possible futiure Tory leader?

    He’s impressed me too. He’s serving two distinct leaders calmly and stoutly. Not one to ramp or rave or be rude, so when he speaks we listen.
    My son commented on how impressed he was with Barclay

    He has improved and benefitted by being in the spotlight
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    rpjs said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
    Indeed. The government did win the motion as it passed on a voice vote. It's just that the motion was amended to no longer do what the government needed it to do.
    So it counts as MV3 the next is 4?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    It was a major strategic mistake. Now the votes take place in the wrong order from their perspective.
    How do they contest the vote on Saturday though - Shout "Noe" to the amended motion !?
    Yes, they could have, which would have brought it to a division. But once the Letwin amendment passed, they were in a lose/lose situation. They could vote down the substantive motion or vote for it in a form that no longer did what they needed it to do, so they just let it pass unopposed on the voice vote.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Boris get his headlines

    No 10. 'Disappointed Speaker denied chance to deliver on the will of the people'

    Tomorrows headlines writ large

    Cummings is a genuius but I want him gone asap

    Just out of interest BigG, do you recieve a newspaper? If you do which one? The reason i ask is purely academic as political socialisation is an interesting topic.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited October 2019
    egg said:

    Stocky said:

    Barclay has impressed me since he`s joined the cabinet - anyone see him as a possible futiure Tory leader?

    He’s impressed me too. He’s serving two distinct leaders calmly and stoutly. Not one to ramp or rave or be rude, so when he speaks we listen.
    You’re ignoring the embarrassing shambles in today’s HOL committee .

    He didn’t even know what he had agreed re the Northern Irish protocol.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,898
    nico67 said:

    The DUP are going to implode at the admission by Barclay regarding customs declarations.

    This is not what was implied by Johnson, if you need to fill in declarations then you’re no longer in the same customs territory.

    What a surprise, the pathological liar has lied again !

    Agreed, but explode rather than implode, I think.
  • egg said:

    Stocky said:

    Barclay has impressed me since he`s joined the cabinet - anyone see him as a possible futiure Tory leader?

    He’s impressed me too. He’s serving two distinct leaders calmly and stoutly. Not one to ramp or rave or be rude, so when he speaks we listen.
    I doubt he will make leader but could certainly imagine him as a chancellor or home secretary at some point. Given his obscurity when taking over, and the inevitable difficulties of his role, he has done well, particularly within the HoC.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    edited October 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
    They didn't shout "NO" to the main motion as amended so it passed without division.

    They could have shouted "NO" and caused a division.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes, we would. Next.
    We would have had a majority Conservative government with Eurosceptic contenders vying to take over from David Cameron. The idea they would ignore the majority of their own electorate is totally implausible.
    Given that Conservative majority included a whole bunch of MPs committed to EU membership you are wrong. Any attempt to see them try and revive a referendum would have seen the VONC within days.
    Who do you think would have taken over from Cameron and how do you think they would have campaigned to win over the Tory selectorate?
    No one would have taken over from Cameron. He campaigned on staying in the EU and would have won his referendum. There would have been no reason for him to be replaced. He would have been able to say he had given the country the voice he promised and they had backed him.

    When even such committed Eurosceptics as me would have accepted that, for all we would have hated it, there is no chance at all there would have been any viable support for a second referendum. And quite rightly as well.
    This view is completely divorced from the reality of Tory party politics. He had already pre-resigned and the manner in which he conducted the referendum meant he would have been forced out in short order anyway.
    Of course he had not pre-resigned. He had even said he would stay on if he lost - and then went back on his word. The earliest he would have been looking at resigning would probably have been around now ready for the 2020 election. It is you who are rewriting history here.
    For the sake of argument, let's say he stayed on until now. Do you really think that talk of a second referendum wouldn't figure in the contest to replace him?
    If we were in the opposite scenario to now, hundreds of MPs wasting parliamentary time doing nothing but trying to get a second referendum would have been elected on a pro EU manifesto, giving pledges to accept the 2016 vote


  • For the sake of argument, let's say he stayed on until now. Do you really think that talk of a second referendum wouldn't figure in the contest to replace him?

    Who knows. What is clear is that without a GE there is no way Parliament itself would in any way be considering a second referendum. Making people vote again when you don't like the result is a Remainer disease.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    The Brexit Secretary has today demonstrated that he does not understand key provisions of the withdrawal agreement. Given that, it is clearly in the best interests of the country (and the Brexit secretary personally) that it gets detailed scrutiny. If that means leaving slightly later than 31st October, so be it.

    The public inquiry on all this is going to be something else.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    egg said:

    rpjs said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
    Indeed. The government did win the motion as it passed on a voice vote. It's just that the motion was amended to no longer do what the government needed it to do.
    So it counts as MV3 the next is 4?
    I guess. The problem is that the meaningful vote motion in terms of the EUWA was debated on Saturday, and so cannot be debated again this session. But the motion was amended to a form that no longer satisfied the requirements of the EUWA. I guess the way out is for the government to use the WAIB to amend the EUWA to remove the MV requirement or designate the third reading of the WAIB in the Commons as satisfying the MV requirement.

    It's a good job the British constitution does not prohibit retrospective legislation!
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    egg said:

    rpjs said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand this? They did contest the Letwin amendment. What else should they have contested?
    Indeed. The government did win the motion as it passed on a voice vote. It's just that the motion was amended to no longer do what the government needed it to do.
    So it counts as MV3 the next is 4?
    Does it matter? It’s not a 5 set tennis match.
  • Stocky said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:
    "Just demonstrates how complex a referendum is and to be honest nobody seems to want to discuss the practicalities and no doubt haven't even thought it through themselves"

    Kyle is on Radio 4 sounding confident about having the majority for a confirmatory referendum.

    What would happen if the commons voted for a referendum? This would take something like 5 months to happen. Is it likely that EU would grant an extention to February in the knowledge that this would rule out a referendum?

    He is talking nonsense and of course this HOC would fillibuster it all the way to oblivion and the EU would deliver the coup d'etat

    And 5 months is the campaign period so in practical terms better part of a year
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320



    For the sake of argument, let's say he stayed on until now. Do you really think that talk of a second referendum wouldn't figure in the contest to replace him?

    Who knows. What is clear is that without a GE there is no way Parliament itself would in any way be considering a second referendum. Making people vote again when you don't like the result is a Remainer disease.
    A referendum commitment would have been highly likely to be in the Tory 2020 manifesto, with Farage breathing down their neck about "unfinished business".


  • For the sake of argument, let's say he stayed on until now. Do you really think that talk of a second referendum wouldn't figure in the contest to replace him?

    Who knows. What is clear is that without a GE there is no way Parliament itself would in any way be considering a second referendum. Making people vote again when you don't like the result is a Remainer disease.
    What on earth was the government trying to do today then if not a losers revote?
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    Yorkcity said:

    egg said:

    The next thing I expect to happen is Labour making big hookah about Governments changes to PD they will try and use to be build an alliance.

    I know Mays PD has been changed by Boris, exactly what the beef is on the labour benches needs to be spelt out to me. Could some of our Labour friends Who post here explain what Labour’s problem is with the changes Boris made to PD and why it is such an issue?

    I believe Labour are concerned because workers rights in Johnson deal are moved from the withdrawal agreement to the political declaration.
    So if the deal is passed these rights could be eroded.
    Any Labour MP not fighting for workers rights, is in the wrong party.
    On the other hand though, perhaps I’m over thinking it, if they are not quickly taking back control, of that, kicking the taking control of that into the future, there’s no immediate reason for the Labour benches to get agitated about it?
  • isam said:

    If Remain had won in 2016 (Might as well have done for the difference it has made), then at the next GE UKIP were the only party still backing Leave, and had got 7% of the vote, would we be discussing a second referendum if they were now on 20%, and Leave ahead in hypothetical polls ?

    Yes. Because the Express, Mail, Spectator and the ERG would have ensured we did.
    And Parliament would have ignored them.
    Parliament has largely ignored second referendum calls. There is not a majority for it.

    Things that have a majority in parliament get an easier ride than those that dont! Our party leaders, especially on the tory side have forgotten how to count. That is the root cause of the problem. We have a divided nation and parliament, but a govt that refuses to recognise this blindingly obvious fact.
    We have had two Governments who have put forward Deals a total of 4 times. But Parliament has failed to support them all 4 times using any number of ridiculous excuses. I assume at some point they will be rejecting the Deal because they don't like the font it is written in.
    They have been rejected as they do not have majority support! The fourth time has not been voted down yet, although the govt seem to be doing their best to antagonise the swing MPs - again if they focussed on winning winnable votes in parliament rather than playing to the social media and brexit press galleries they would get it done quite quickly.
    "They have been rejected as they do not have majority support" is a statement of the bleeding obvious. But the reason they didn't have majority support is because the various MPs were more interested in playing politics or stopping Brexit than they were in actually doing what they were elected to do.
    I have no idea why you seem to exclude the government from your analysis when they set both the agenda and tone of enacting what they are elected to do.
    Because they were the ones putting forward viable Deals which had been agreed with the EU.
    Viable = winnable in parliament!
    Not when Parliament considers that no deal should be allowed to pass. Viable means something that both sides of the negotiation are willing to accept. By your definition there is no viable way forward in any direction as Parliament will not agree anything.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It's a busy news day, but it's important to note that new abortion laws and gay marriage are being imposed on Northern Ireland tonight by Westminster. While I'm all in favour of both, it's hardly going to improve the mood of the DUP when dealing with what they no doubt regard as a treacherous government.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Chris said:

    Chris said:



    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why did the government propose another vote?

    It would have known that it was not in order. It’s just another cynical attempt by the government to increase the divisions, return to an atmosphere of hostility and feed the mob.

    More to the point even if Bercow had ruled it in order, why on earth did they think it would not be amended in exactly the same way again this time - with the additional annoyance of having wasted yet more time on it and probably lost a few more votes for bills and amendments further down the line.
    Is it possible they didn't realise that a yes vote would enable Johnson to withdraw his letter? Or that they thought enough MPs didn't realise that?
    I don't know Chris. As I said the other day this has all got so convoluted I have no idea what the implications are of any of these actions at the moment. The fact that even the journalists who are supposed to make a living out of explaining this stuff to us seemed to be unclear about whether the MV passed or not kind of shows how daft it has all become.

    They should just get on and debate the WAIB. Make some bloody decisions.
    According to the BBC, the bill is being published in about an hour's time. As far as I know, the second reading is still scheduled for tomorrow.

    What the point of today's hoo-hah was, I'm not sure.
    I think a lot of it (not just today) is unproductively chewing up opponent's time at little cost to the government
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Stocky said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:
    "Just demonstrates how complex a referendum is and to be honest nobody seems to want to discuss the practicalities and no doubt haven't even thought it through themselves"

    Kyle is on Radio 4 sounding confident about having the majority for a confirmatory referendum.

    What would happen if the commons voted for a referendum? This would take something like 5 months to happen. Is it likely that EU would grant an extention to February in the knowledge that this would rule out a referendum?

    He is talking nonsense and of course this HOC would fillibuster it all the way to oblivion and the EU would deliver the coup d'etat

    And 5 months is the campaign period so in practical terms better part of a year
    It's not. A referendum can be called in 6 months (22 weeks is the minimum time from memory).

    So we could hold it just after Easter.


  • For the sake of argument, let's say he stayed on until now. Do you really think that talk of a second referendum wouldn't figure in the contest to replace him?

    Who knows. What is clear is that without a GE there is no way Parliament itself would in any way be considering a second referendum. Making people vote again when you don't like the result is a Remainer disease.
    What on earth was the government trying to do today then if not a losers revote?
    Strictly speaking they won the vote. The motion was passed. If anything it was a winners revote.

    But joking aside that is immaterial given I think they were stupid whatever they were trying to do today. Maybe Remainer disease is catching.
This discussion has been closed.