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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s general election plan on Brexit- it looks as though t

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s general election plan on Brexit- it looks as though the fudge will continue

As well as the side shows of the move against Watson that were pulled and the top Corbyn advisor who has quit the the big story about behind the secenes in Brighton appears to have been the policy, or non-policy, on Brexit.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Spursy
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042
    Labour fudge - a sickly concoction.
  • The return.

    Time to focus on fantasy league.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,467
    edited September 2019
    Speaking as a Diehard Remainer (TM) I don't really have a problem with this, as long as they're clear on the referendum. On balance it's probably better to have Hypothetical PM Corbyn supporting Remain rather than opposing, but it could easily be the other way.

    Also just because the party is on the fence doesn't mean that their candidates have to be. If Corbyn stays then Labour will likely hardly be making any gains, and their job is mainly to limit the losses to Con. A lot of the Con targets are quite leave-ish, so there's something to be said for giving the incumbents the ability to pick a message that appeals to their voters.

    I know there's a benefit to having a clear message, but I think that ship has already sailed.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 1,487
    edited September 2019
    Just a quick comment... In a local by election where Labour have always polled quite well and which was in a Labour Parliamentary seat until 2015, we can not find a detectable Labour vote in our canvassing. The collapse in Scotland is total. It has taken four years. If Corbyn is still leader at the next GE I believe they will come a poor third nationally, indeed I can't exclude that they come fourth. Their only hope is to have Kier Starmer as leader, without that... "Whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad"
  • The least worst of the reality based options for europhiles is the impending General Election repulsing Johnson's attempt at a majority but the opposition block being made up of proportionately more LDs and SNP. The polls say the votes are there to do it but we need another astonishing 2017 style piece of luck with very high information tactical voting. Do miracles happpen twice in a row ? So for me given the chaos around the leader and his toxic personal ratings this week is about Confrrence banking the People's Vote pledge as a new bottom line and a strong insurrection against the leadership from a europhile direction. Corbyn won't be shifted but successors need to see they need to run on a europhile platform to win the leadership. Given the practical limits imposed by a party in chaos the week is so far going as well as I dared hope.
  • David Cameron will be pleased with Aston Villa's 2-0 victory over Manchester United but just how old is he?

    For the Record: we had gone cap in hand to the IMF in the 1970s – a humiliation seared into the memories of my generation.

    David Cameron was born in 1966 so by my calculation, he'd have been just ten in 1976.
  • Cicero said:

    Just a quick comment... In a local by election where Labour have always polled quite well and which was in a Labour Parliamentary seat until 2015, we can not find a detectable Labour vote in our canvassing. The collapse in Scotland is total. It has taken four years. If Corbyn is still leader at the next GE I believe they will come a poor third nationally, indeed I can't exclude that they come fourth. Their only hope is to have Kier Starmer as leader, without that... "Whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad"

    That's what we need for the Grand Diehard Remainer Tactical Alliance: No Labour voters in Scotland, no Labour voters in Tory Remainia, and all the remaining Labour voters herded into seats in England and Wales that already have Labour MPs...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,000
    Afternoon all :)

    A surprise on our Sunday morning promenade down East Ham High Street to see the Brexit Party with a stall and some volunteers.

    I was handed a copy of "The Brexiteer" which is an interesting read - the idea of Ann Widdecombe as a pro-Brexit Agony Aunt is one I hadn't considered before.

    Clearly BP see themselves as having a real chance of taking the ultra-marginal East Ham constituency from Stephen Timms who is handing on to his tiny 39,883 majority.

    To be fair, the BP finished third across Newham in the European Elections, behind the LDs but in front of both the Greens and the Conservatives. Probably just worth mentioning Labour still managed more than half the vote so not easy for the Faragists on that evidence.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,607
    edited September 2019
    Labour’s policy is actually the most sensible one at this stage.

    They won’t get any thanks from a hyper partisan media for it because no one actually cares about policy anymore and its all about ways to attack Corbyn.

    I say this as an “ultra die hard remainer” and professional Corbyn-detester.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,096
    Cicero said:

    Just a quick comment... In a local by election where Labour have always polled quite well and which was in a Labour Parliamentary seat until 2015, we can not find a detectable Labour vote in our canvassing. The collapse in Scotland is total. It has taken four years. If Corbyn is still leader at the next GE I believe they will come a poor third nationally, indeed I can't exclude that they come fourth. Their only hope is to have Kier Starmer as leader, without that... "Whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad"

    Is that a Scottish seat you are talking about, please? (Implicitly it is, but it's not quite certain.)

    In fairness to Mr Corbyn it might be Scottish Labour that is the problem, with its divergent attitudes to Mr C's policies, and Mr Leonard's leadership - it only emphasises how one doesn't know what one is getting when one votes Labour. Vide the party conference today. And the dithering over Indyref 2 doesn't help. It only puts off remainers of whatever persuasion - they can go to the SNP or the new thuggish LDs who only believe in referenda when it suits them.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,607
    edited September 2019
    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.
  • David Cameron will be pleased with Aston Villa's 2-0 victory over Manchester United but just how old is he?

    For the Record: we had gone cap in hand to the IMF in the 1970s – a humiliation seared into the memories of my generation.

    David Cameron was born in 1966 so by my calculation, he'd have been just ten in 1976.

    I guess his stockbroker dad frightened him with bed time stories of Marxist-Leninist pip squeezer Healey grovelling to the IMF. I don't think I'm even joking.
  • Jo Swinson must be doing cartwheels.
  • Here in deepest Leaverstan on the walk home I noticed people stopping to look at a notice in the Thomas Cook window. They were obviously thinking it might be an administrators notice. It was actually a long standing notice saying their opening hours had been cut by an hour a day during September. One of the signs of retail distress locally is even big national chains with standardised hours keep chipping away at them with impromptu temporary reductions. Oddly typed individualised signage cellotaped into homogenised corporate shop frontages. It's largely staff teams being pooled with stores with the neighbouring large town.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,989

    Labour’s policy is actually the most sensible one at this stage.

    They won’t get any thanks from a hyper partisan media for it because no one actually cares about policy anymore and its all about ways to attack Corbyn.

    I say this as an “ultra die hard remainer” and professional Corbyn-detester.

    Absolutely agree...Labour have to give a choice of a deal or remain back...

    There has to be a deal...even if we crash out we have to have a deal ion due course....

    We need to present the best deal against the status quo.....

    No deal is a fantasy...and the LD position is just divisive, and anti-democratic
  • MaxUMaxU Posts: 87
    edited September 2019

    David Cameron will be pleased with Aston Villa's 2-0 victory over Manchester United but just how old is he?

    For the Record: we had gone cap in hand to the IMF in the 1970s – a humiliation seared into the memories of my generation.

    David Cameron was born in 1966 so by my calculation, he'd have been just ten in 1976.

    I guess his stockbroker dad frightened him with bed time stories of Marxist-Leninist pip squeezer Healey grovelling to the IMF. I don't think I'm even joking.
    That sounds plausible. I was born after the IMF crisis (1980) but my mother would always bring it up when I asked her about elections (which I suppose must be from 1987 onwards). The conversation would go a bit like this "Who did you vote for mummy?" "I voted Conservative- I have done ever since we went to the IMF". She had previously been quite a lefty- consistently voting Labour from 1964-74 but she regarded, and still regards, going to the IMF as such a humiliation that she has never voted Labour again. As a result it is "seared" (to use Cameron's expression) in my memory as well.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,096
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.
  • Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    Well, @YBarddCwsc always claims that Wales is essentially a colonised country and maybe here’s some proof at last.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 774

    Speaking as a Diehard Remainer (TM) I don't really have a problem with this, as long as they're clear on the referendum. On balance it's probably better to have Hypothetical PM Corbyn supporting Remain rather than opposing, but it could easily be the other way.

    Also just because the party is on the fence doesn't mean that their candidates have to be. If Corbyn stays then Labour will likely hardly be making any gains, and their job is mainly to limit the losses to Con. A lot of the Con targets are quite leave-ish, so there's something to be said for giving the incumbents the ability to pick a message that appeals to their voters.

    I know there's a benefit to having a clear message, but I think that ship has already sailed.

    Indeed, in theory. I think the main problem though is Corbyn - it's fine as long as you know there's a clear destination for remain, which you would have with a better, less duplicitous leader arguing for the same policy. But a lot of remainers are, quite understandably, extremely wary of Labour's language still suggesting they can do a better deal they will campaign for, both because, knowing the Stalinist tactics at the top of Labour, they might end up advocating for it in a referendum, or totally bodging the renegotiation, and/or losing the referendum by Corbyn doing what he did in 2016 and hamstringing the campaign. It's a fairly simple request - go with whatever process you want but stop pretending miracle solutions exist.

    Corbyn's other problem in Tory-Lab marginals is that this kind of fudge is unlikely to placate leavers from turning to the Tories as they're not totally stupid, and know a Labour Brexit policy is unlikely to meet their demands of Brexit - especially as they mistrust Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott for other reasons.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,607
    edited September 2019
    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Nice put down by the Lib Dems

    In response to the news that Emily Thornberry described the Lib Dems as “like the Taliban” over their new revoke Article 50 Brexit policy, the former Lib Dem leader responded:

    “Come on Emily, if we really were like a Middle East terrorist group, don’t you think Jeremy would’ve invited us to a conference fringe meeting before now?”
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    I think the analysis is not right. Monmouthshire & Vale of Glamorgan voted to Remain (Monmouthshire is the single most Anglicised seat in Wales). As did Ceredigion (two Universities) and Gwynedd.

    The strongest discriminant as to whether a Welsh seat voted to Leave is if the seat voted Labour.

    ***Every Labour seat outside Cardiff voted to Leave.***

    The seats that did not were either Tory or Plaid Cymru held.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    Well, @YBarddCwsc always claims that Wales is essentially a colonised country and maybe here’s some proof at last.
    It certainly is run as a colony.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Labour fudge - a sickly concoction.

    Got loads of flavours though and they change them at least 3 times a day.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,811
    Carnyx said:
    My two Welsh step-children have been saying that to me since the referendum. No wonder support for independence is growing.
  • There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    Boris Johnson certainly needs to be asked whether he was sleeping with her. Perhaps an MP could oblige, if Parliament reconvenes long enough for Prime Minister’s Questions?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 774
    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    Just a quick comment... In a local by election where Labour have always polled quite well and which was in a Labour Parliamentary seat until 2015, we can not find a detectable Labour vote in our canvassing. The collapse in Scotland is total. It has taken four years. If Corbyn is still leader at the next GE I believe they will come a poor third nationally, indeed I can't exclude that they come fourth. Their only hope is to have Kier Starmer as leader, without that... "Whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad"

    Is that a Scottish seat you are talking about, please? (Implicitly it is, but it's not quite certain.)

    In fairness to Mr Corbyn it might be Scottish Labour that is the problem, with its divergent attitudes to Mr C's policies, and Mr Leonard's leadership - it only emphasises how one doesn't know what one is getting when one votes Labour. Vide the party conference today. And the dithering over Indyref 2 doesn't help. It only puts off remainers of whatever persuasion - they can go to the SNP or the new thuggish LDs who only believe in referenda when it suits them.
    Labour's problem in Scotland is that Corbynites totally misread the reason for the SNP surge - arguing it was because Labour was not left-wing enough. In fact, and the clue should have been in the SNP's name, is that it's about the independence of local parties and their freedom from national parties that understandably, have to worry about winning seats in England. Hence why Ruth Davidson was successful - she could tailor Conservatism to fit Scotland and stand up to the national leadership when necessary. The most effective attack on Scottish Labour was always that it was a branch office filled with no marks. A side-effect of Corbynism's authoritarian approach to dissent against the leader is that they installed a no mark loyalist and made it a branch office of Corbyn Labour.

    Leonard should be doing something like what Sadiq Khan is doing and needling the Labour leadership on Brexit at every opportunity to get on the right side of his remainer voters. Leonard has barely uttered a peep and as a result is getting slaughtered. Unless you're a Lexiteer (and there aren't many of them, except in Corbyn's office) there's just no reason on Earth to vote S Lab. If you're relaxed about Independence you have the SNP. If you're a remainer there's the Lib Dems - both who'll support a referendum if in a coalition. If you're pro-Brexit and a Unionst there's the Tories. If you're pro-Brexit and a bit of a nihilist there's the BXP.

    Labour are going to get marmalised.
  • There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    'American model', 'regular visitor to Arcuri’s top-floor flat' and 'one of her best friends' - are these some kind of code words?
  • Again, I firmly believe that Corbyn and Co do not want to win the election. They want to consolidate power within Labour so that they cannot be removed by moderates. They will then win a subsequent election once the public eventually tires of the Tories, and can then do whatever they want.
  • I do like fudge.

    As an aside, a friend of mine has a fudge shop (no, really).

    https://twitter.com/HollyBlueDorset

    For reasons of loyalty, I selflessly bought myself a box from there a little while ago. Especially liked the coffee fudge.
  • There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    I have given up hope there would be any meaningful outrage over Boris. If his threats of physical violence against a journalist failed to stop him getting into the highest office then I can't see something as common as a sordid little affair is going to have much impact.

    It shouldn't be that way but it seems it is these days.
  • Just answered a survey via Panelbase for what appeared to be a private client. I'm not on political/polling panels.

    From the questions, I'd guess the customer was the Conservative party. One of the questions related to whether Boris should break the law or not and ignore the Benn Act.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,855
    edited September 2019

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    I think the analysis is not right. Monmouthshire & Vale of Glamorgan voted to Remain (Monmouthshire is the single most Anglicised seat in Wales). As did Ceredigion (two Universities) and Gwynedd.

    The strongest discriminant as to whether a Welsh seat voted to Leave is if the seat voted Labour.

    ***Every Labour seat outside Cardiff voted to Leave.***

    The seats that did not were either Tory or Plaid Cymru held.
    I personally find it very hard to believe there are huge numbers of English settlers in the Welsh valleys. However, there are definitely very large numbers of English born voters in Ceredigion - must be well over a quarter of the population.

    Edit - don't forget though that Powys voted leave, which doesn't fit either pattern comfortably. Although it's also one of the more anglicised parts of Wales in terms of language, if not perhaps population.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,621

    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    'American model', 'regular visitor to Arcuri’s top-floor flat' and 'one of her best friends' - are these some kind of code words?
    Not a code that needs GCHQ to crack!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,591
    Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    edited September 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    I think the analysis is not right. Monmouthshire & Vale of Glamorgan voted to Remain (Monmouthshire is the single most Anglicised seat in Wales). As did Ceredigion (two Universities) and Gwynedd.

    The strongest discriminant as to whether a Welsh seat voted to Leave is if the seat voted Labour.

    ***Every Labour seat outside Cardiff voted to Leave.***

    The seats that did not were either Tory or Plaid Cymru held.
    I personally find it very hard to believe there are huge numbers of English settlers in the Welsh valleys. However, there are definitely very large numbers of English born voters in Ceredigion - must be well over a quarter of the population.
    It is a bollocks-analysis by Danny Dorling.

    " ....whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion saw high remain votes."

    The Welsh-speaking areas of Carmarthen and Ynys Mon voted to Leave.

    I suspect the behaviour of Gwynedd and Ceredigion is more to do with the fact that they are the West Walian seats with Universities.

    FWIW, I think the Plaid Cymru vote is 2/3 Remain, 1/3 Leave -- which will present Plaid Cymru with a serious problem given that they have decided that their main function in a general election is to ensure the greater glory of Jo Swinson.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,154

    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    I have given up hope there would be any meaningful outrage over Boris. If his threats of physical violence against a journalist failed to stop him getting into the highest office then I can't see something as common as a sordid little affair is going to have much impact.

    It shouldn't be that way but it seems it is these days.
    It’s not the affair (assuming there was one) as such which is the problem, but the failure to declare an actual or potential conflict of interest, the overriding of advice and the possible misuse of taxpayers’ money.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Back in 1975 there was a Special Conference on the Renegotiated terms of EEC membership.The Labour Party rejected the terms of its own Government, and in the Referendum we saw the Labour Government recommending a Vote to Stay within the EEC whilst the Labour Party campaigned to Leave. People seemed to cope with that - without the ructions we see today.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,096
    MJW said:


    Labour's problem in Scotland is that Corbynites totally misread the reason for the SNP surge - arguing it was because Labour was not left-wing enough. In fact, and the clue should have been in the SNP's name, is that it's about the independence of local parties and their freedom from national parties that understandably, have to worry about winning seats in England. Hence why Ruth Davidson was successful - she could tailor Conservatism to fit Scotland and stand up to the national leadership when necessary. The most effective attack on Scottish Labour was always that it was a branch office filled with no marks. A side-effect of Corbynism's authoritarian approach to dissent against the leader is that they installed a no mark loyalist and made it a branch office of Corbyn Labour.

    Leonard should be doing something like what Sadiq Khan is doing and needling the Labour leadership on Brexit at every opportunity to get on the right side of his remainer voters. Leonard has barely uttered a peep and as a result is getting slaughtered. Unless you're a Lexiteer (and there aren't many of them, except in Corbyn's office) there's just no reason on Earth to vote S Lab. If you're relaxed about Independence you have the SNP. If you're a remainer there's the Lib Dems - both who'll support a referendum if in a coalition. If you're pro-Brexit and a Unionst there's the Tories. If you're pro-Brexit and a bit of a nihilist there's the BXP.

    Labour are going to get marmalised.

    I was really quite struck by the assertion of @Cicero that Labour were bumping along the bottom of detectability - or below. I'm not - I think - quite ready to believe that yet, but in view of what you say perhaps I should! I do remember Wings over Scotland's surveys finding quiote a high proportion of elderly labour voters in Scotland, so perhaps as the retired miners pass away ...

    Mr L does not seem to have a very high voter recognition profile, does he? Not a peep on Ms Davidson.

    I was just reading the conference news this weekend and thinking also that the flagship policies being touted by the UK Labour Party - not that there is a separate Scottish one, which doesn't help either - include:
    - free prescriptions
    - free personal care for the old
    - removing the fiscal advantages of private schools
    - and, if one includes previous speeches in Scotland by Mr Corbyn, renationalising water, doing away with the bedroom tax etc

    Yet all of those are already part of the scene in Scotland or being considered (abolition of business rates relief for private schools IIRC). And in some cases bitterly opposed by Slab (e.g. IIRC Johann Lamont 'something for nothing').

    Not exactly relevant, are they, to Scotland? Except to highlight how badly run England must therefore be at present: and it's not the SNP saying it. but Labour out of their own mouths.


  • Cyclefree said:

    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    I have given up hope there would be any meaningful outrage over Boris. If his threats of physical violence against a journalist failed to stop him getting into the highest office then I can't see something as common as a sordid little affair is going to have much impact.

    It shouldn't be that way but it seems it is these days.
    It’s not the affair (assuming there was one) as such which is the problem, but the failure to declare an actual or potential conflict of interest, the overriding of advice and the possible misuse of taxpayers’ money.
    I agree. My point was more that if threats of harm to individuals are shrugged off then it seems we have got to the point where nothing will touch him. He should never have managed to get to this point with his history.
  • Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    I think that is very probable.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,591
    edited September 2019

    Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    The only way to maintain a semblance of national unity and cohesion would be to leave to EEA.

    Unfortunately that is not politically viable.

    We’re f*cked either way but we’re probably better off long-term being f*cked whilst remaining in the European Union.

    🔶
  • Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    The only way to maintain a semblance of national unity and cohesion would be to leave to EEA.

    Unfortunately that is not politically viable.

    We’re f*cked either way but we’re probably better off long-term being f*cked whilst remaining in the European Union.

    🔶
    I think EFTA/EEA is very much politically viable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    It might be an eye-opener for those who think the LibDem seats are going to pile up in the SW.....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,591

    Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    The only way to maintain a semblance of national unity and cohesion would be to leave to EEA.

    Unfortunately that is not politically viable.

    We’re f*cked either way but we’re probably better off long-term being f*cked whilst remaining in the European Union.

    🔶
    I think EFTA/EEA is very much politically viable.
    Tell that to @HYUFD please. That would be ‘betraying the leave voting working class’ apparently.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,855

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    I think the analysis is not right. Monmouthshire & Vale of Glamorgan voted to Remain (Monmouthshire is the single most Anglicised seat in Wales). As did Ceredigion (two Universities) and Gwynedd.

    The strongest discriminant as to whether a Welsh seat voted to Leave is if the seat voted Labour.

    ***Every Labour seat outside Cardiff voted to Leave.***

    The seats that did not were either Tory or Plaid Cymru held.
    I personally find it very hard to believe there are huge numbers of English settlers in the Welsh valleys. However, there are definitely very large numbers of English born voters in Ceredigion - must be well over a quarter of the population.
    It is a bollocks-analysis by Danny Dorling.

    " ....whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion saw high remain votes."

    The Welsh-speaking areas of Carmarthen and Ynys Mon voted to Leave.

    I suspect the behaviour of Gwynedd and Ceredigion is more to do with the fact that they are the West Walian seats with Universities.

    FWIW, I think the Plaid Cymru vote is 2/3 Remain, 1/3 Leave -- which will present Plaid Cymru with a serious problem given that they have decided that their main function in a general election is to ensure the greater glory of Jo Swinson.
    Agreed, although in the case of Gwynedd I wonder if the importance of tourism, EU subsidies and lamb exports might have been a factor too. I have friends farming near Tywyn and they're appalled at the thought of leaving the EU.

    To be honest, glancing at a map with narrowed eyes I would say that like England the ex-industrial deprived areas voted Leave and the more affluent areas voted Remain. But I'm aware that's a simplification and as crude as any other simplification.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,855
    Scott_P said:
    Seems an odd way of phrasing it. Do they mean, 'to commit a Labour government to passing legislation that compels...?'
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,859

    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    Boris Johnson certainly needs to be asked whether he was sleeping with her. Perhaps an MP could oblige, if Parliament reconvenes long enough for Prime Minister’s Questions?
    Actually that's not the point, is it? He can sleep with whomever he likes and it's a matter for him and them - it's not a matter of rules of office. But none of them should be subsidised and given advantageous access to contracts by the taxpayer. I'm not really sure who would investigate such allegations - is it a police matter?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
  • Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    The only way to maintain a semblance of national unity and cohesion would be to leave to EEA.

    Unfortunately that is not politically viable.

    We’re f*cked either way but we’re probably better off long-term being f*cked whilst remaining in the European Union.

    🔶
    I think EFTA/EEA is very much politically viable.
    Tell that to @HYUFD please. That would be ‘betraying the leave voting working class’ apparently.
    He toes the party line. If the party leadership shifted to an EFTA solution HYUFD would have a dozen arguments about why it is the best solution backed up by polling evidence showing how popular it is.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Public schools ordered to sell off their playing field? For Housing?
  • Carnyx said:


    I was really quite struck by the assertion of @Cicero that Labour were bumping along the bottom of detectability - or below. I'm not - I think - quite ready to believe that yet, but in view of what you say perhaps I should! I do remember Wings over Scotland's surveys finding quiote a high proportion of elderly labour voters in Scotland, so perhaps as the retired miners pass away ...

    Mr L does not seem to have a very high voter recognition profile, does he? Not a peep on Ms Davidson.

    I was just reading the conference news this weekend and thinking also that the flagship policies being touted by the UK Labour Party - not that there is a separate Scottish one, which doesn't help either - include:
    - free prescriptions
    - free personal care for the old
    - removing the fiscal advantages of private schools
    - and, if one includes previous speeches in Scotland by Mr Corbyn, renationalising water, doing away with the bedroom tax etc

    Yet all of those are already part of the scene in Scotland or being considered (abolition of business rates relief for private schools IIRC). And in some cases bitterly opposed by Slab (e.g. IIRC Johann Lamont 'something for nothing').

    Not exactly relevant, are they, to Scotland? Except to highlight how badly run England must therefore be at present: and it's not the SNP saying it. but Labour out of their own mouths.

    When SLab are down to 3 councillors and a dug, the Daily Record/Sunday Mail will still be piteously hoping for a revival.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1175727554407407616?s=20
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,591

    Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    The only way to maintain a semblance of national unity and cohesion would be to leave to EEA.

    Unfortunately that is not politically viable.

    We’re f*cked either way but we’re probably better off long-term being f*cked whilst remaining in the European Union.

    🔶
    I think EFTA/EEA is very much politically viable.
    Tell that to @HYUFD please. That would be ‘betraying the leave voting working class’ apparently.
    He toes the party line. If the party leadership shifted to an EFTA solution HYUFD would have a dozen arguments about why it is the best solution backed up by polling evidence showing how popular it is.
    :D:D
  • Mr. Gate, that's a very plausible possibility, especially if the options are Remain or a deal that's portrayed as departure in name only.

    In turn, that could lead to a Remain win with a far lower turnout, and possibly fewer supporters for Remain than for Leave in the first referendum.

    It'd also fully energise 'hard' Leavers behind the notion, made just by the antics of Remainers, that demanding another referendum is legitimate.

    However, despite those drawbacks, it's still infinitely preferably to Swinson's demented, and unnecessary own goal, policy of revocation by Parliament.
  • There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    Boris Johnson certainly needs to be asked whether he was sleeping with her. Perhaps an MP could oblige, if Parliament reconvenes long enough for Prime Minister’s Questions?
    Actually that's not the point, is it? He can sleep with whomever he likes and it's a matter for him and them - it's not a matter of rules of office. But none of them should be subsidised and given advantageous access to contracts by the taxpayer. I'm not really sure who would investigate such allegations - is it a police matter?
    The sexual relationship is not the point. But if it existed it would create the conditions for an investigation. Directing public funds for the benefit of a squeeze would look like a straightforward case of misconduct in a public office.

    The Code of Conduct of the GLA would be another starting point, I guess.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,591

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    It might be an eye-opener for those who think the LibDem seats are going to pile up in the SW.....
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1174926411548844032?s=21
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,882
    Cyclefree said:

    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    I have given up hope there would be any meaningful outrage over Boris. If his threats of physical violence against a journalist failed to stop him getting into the highest office then I can't see something as common as a sordid little affair is going to have much impact.

    It shouldn't be that way but it seems it is these days.
    It’s not the affair (assuming there was one) as such which is the problem, but the failure to declare an actual or potential conflict of interest, the overriding of advice and the possible misuse of taxpayers’ money.
    Doesn't it rather pale into insignificance compared with what he's up to now?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,985

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    It might be an eye-opener for those who think the LibDem seats are going to pile up in the SW.....
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1174926411548844032?s=21
    I'm no mathematician, but something looks fishy about those numbers.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,591

    Mr. Gate, that's a very plausible possibility, especially if the options are Remain or a deal that's portrayed as departure in name only.

    In turn, that could lead to a Remain win with a far lower turnout, and possibly fewer supporters for Remain than for Leave in the first referendum.

    It'd also fully energise 'hard' Leavers behind the notion, made just by the antics of Remainers, that demanding another referendum is legitimate.

    However, despite those drawbacks, it's still infinitely preferably to Swinson's demented, and unnecessary own goal, policy of revocation by Parliament.

    Why is it preferable? The outcome is the same. We just avoid 6 months of pointless negotiations and 6 months of a hateful referendum campaign and all the money associated with that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042
    edited September 2019

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    It might be an eye-opener for those who think the LibDem seats are going to pile up in the SW.....
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1174926411548844032?s=21
    Not quite as you suggest - previously the LibDems only put up one candidate in a two-seat constituency. They won the seat they did contest easily.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042
    alex. said:

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
    The people railing loudest at Boris breaking the law would be those justifying the actions of climate change protestors....in breaking the law
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,621

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    It might be an eye-opener for those who think the LibDem seats are going to pile up in the SW.....
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1174926411548844032?s=21
    I think a lot depends on where is meant by SW. The peninsula is more Brexity than the proximal SW.

    Of course, Brexit will not be the only issue in a GE too, same as in Wales.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
    The people railing loudest at Boris breaking the law would be those justifying the actions of climate change protestors....in breaking the law
    Kind of flat out missing the point...
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Speaking as a Diehard Remainer (TM) I don't really have a problem with this, as long as they're clear on the referendum. On balance it's probably better to have Hypothetical PM Corbyn supporting Remain rather than opposing, but it could easily be the other way.

    Also just because the party is on the fence doesn't mean that their candidates have to be. If Corbyn stays then Labour will likely hardly be making any gains, and their job is mainly to limit the losses to Con. A lot of the Con targets are quite leave-ish, so there's something to be said for giving the incumbents the ability to pick a message that appeals to their voters.

    I know there's a benefit to having a clear message, but I think that ship has already sailed.

    Same here. But then, I'm not going to vote Labour either way, so maybe it's not for me to say.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,670
    edited September 2019
    Mr. Gate, because the idea of a referendum result being overturned without another referendum rather makes a mockery of the idea, makes the political class appear to have pre-eminence over the electorate, allows 35% to overturn 52%, enables the SNP to (legitimately) claim that a straight majority in Holyrood gives them justification to declare independence, derides the promises made by all sides that the referendum result would be respected and implemented, further deepen and widen already entrenched and poisonous political division, and allows the entirely justified claim to be made that pro-EU MPs deliberately frustrated the will of the electorate in negotiations to allow them to renege upon their oaths and reverse the electorate's decision without recourse to the public (in short, that they were batting for the other side, the EU's, rather than the UK's).

    It's an idiotic policy.

    Edited extra bit: cut a slightly OTT comparison, as, on reflection, it didn't really add anything to the debate.

    I don't discount your view on how unpleasant a referendum campaign might be. But Parliamentary revocation would, I think, but substantially worse.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,621
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

    Quite interesting that the Westcountry was also very Brexity.

    I think the analysis is not right. Monmouthshire & Vale of Glamorgan voted to Remain (Monmouthshire is the single most Anglicised seat in Wales). As did Ceredigion (two Universities) and Gwynedd.

    The strongest discriminant as to whether a Welsh seat voted to Leave is if the seat voted Labour.

    ***Every Labour seat outside Cardiff voted to Leave.***

    The seats that did not were either Tory or Plaid Cymru held.
    I personally find it very hard to believe there are huge numbers of English settlers in the Welsh valleys. However, there are definitely very large numbers of English born voters in Ceredigion - must be well over a quarter of the population.
    It is a bollocks-analysis by Danny Dorling.

    " ....whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion saw high remain votes."

    The Welsh-speaking areas of Carmarthen and Ynys Mon voted to Leave.

    I suspect the behaviour of Gwynedd and Ceredigion is more to do with the fact that they are the West Walian seats with Universities.

    FWIW, I think the Plaid Cymru vote is 2/3 Remain, 1/3 Leave -- which will present Plaid Cymru with a serious problem given that they have decided that their main function in a general election is to ensure the greater glory of Jo Swinson.
    Agreed, although in the case of Gwynedd I wonder if the importance of tourism, EU subsidies and lamb exports might have been a factor too. I have friends farming near Tywyn and they're appalled at the thought of leaving the EU.

    To be honest, glancing at a map with narrowed eyes I would say that like England the ex-industrial deprived areas voted Leave and the more affluent areas voted Remain. But I'm aware that's a simplification and as crude as any other simplification.
    In Brexit terms, Wales looks much like England to me. Post industrial areas, and those with older populations go Brexit. University areas, and the capital for Remain.

    Immigration from outside Britain less of an issue, but English incomers driving a nationalist Remain vote too. Like in Scotland, Brussels is seen as a counterweight to London.
  • On the basis of recent history, this kind of shit coming the UK's way very soon.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1175799860508995584?s=20
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042
    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
    The people railing loudest at Boris breaking the law would be those justifying the actions of climate change protestors....in breaking the law
    Kind of flat out missing the point...
    Don't be so harsh on yourself.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,621

    alex. said:

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
    The people railing loudest at Boris breaking the law would be those justifying the actions of climate change protestors....in breaking the law
    Civil disobedience, whether environmental or other issue, is not about being immune from the law. It is about deliberately breaking the law in the cause. Indeed being arrested is often the point.

    The XR protests in October look big from what a little bird tells me. BoZo is going to need those extra coppers.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited September 2019

    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
    The people railing loudest at Boris breaking the law would be those justifying the actions of climate change protestors....in breaking the law
    Kind of flat out missing the point...
    Don't be so harsh on yourself.....
    It is a fundamental principle that those in positions of power, or those who aspire to it, do not advocate the breaking of the law. They can express sympathy for those who might do so, argue for leniency in sentencing, pledge to change the law if given the opportunity, but NEVER actually encourage it or advocate it. And that’s when talking about ordinary citizens. Just look at what Tories rightly say when the current Labour leadership support illegal strike action.

    But for Ministers to actually break the law themselves? That is quite obviously the short cut to total anarchy.

  • Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    There hasn’t been nearly enough outrage over this:
    https://twitter.com/mrsnickyclark/status/1175646334763896833?s=21
    Shag Boris and you can get your hands on hundreds of thousands of public money.

    I have given up hope there would be any meaningful outrage over Boris. If his threats of physical violence against a journalist failed to stop him getting into the highest office then I can't see something as common as a sordid little affair is going to have much impact.

    It shouldn't be that way but it seems it is these days.
    It’s not the affair (assuming there was one) as such which is the problem, but the failure to declare an actual or potential conflict of interest, the overriding of advice and the possible misuse of taxpayers’ money.
    Doesn't it rather pale into insignificance compared with what he's up to now?
    But it's potentially a much more clear-cut matter, even though Brexit is an issue of huge national significance whereas contracts awarded to friends were a few tens of thousands of pounds.

    His defence on Brexit is that he's doing certain things which are close to the line for the greater good of securing Britain's prompt departure from the EU as voted for in 2016. I don't agree with this argument, but I can understand it, and I can understand why quite a few people side with him on it.

    If he was giving contracts and other favours to his mistress without disclosing the existence of the personal relationship and the obvious conflict involved in making decisions about awarding contracts... well, who can seriously defend that? There's no "greater good" defence - it'd be fairly straightforward corruption.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,096
    Indeed, and 'Scottish judges'.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited September 2019
    Perhaps the “no10” source would like to spell out the consequences for our benefit and what they are actually envisaging for the future of the country. Because it sure ain’t a democratic country operating within the rule of law.

    What a triumph for Brexiteers!

    Any chance the Justice Secretary might show some backbone and actually do something about these briefings?
  • Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Re Andrew Roberts in the Mail on Sunday.
    Isn’t it illegal itself to call for someone else to commit an illegal act?

    Hopefully Mr Roberts loses his academic sinecures and is sent to prison.

    There are from time to time debates to be had about whether ordinary citizens should break the law for a higher good. There was a time however when the idea that such “ordinary citizens” could include the Prime Minister and/or Government ministers wouldn’t even be a topic for debate. Because once you reach that point the rule of law within the country effectively ceases to exist.
    The people railing loudest at Boris breaking the law would be those justifying the actions of climate change protestors....in breaking the law
    Civil disobedience, whether environmental or other issue, is not about being immune from the law. It is about deliberately breaking the law in the cause. Indeed being arrested is often the point.

    The XR protests in October look big from what a little bird tells me. BoZo is going to need those extra coppers.
    Gandhiji himself was arrested half a dozen times between 1919 and 1942.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,784
    Peston:
    "Welcome to Labour’s Twilight Zone, its ruling NEC, whose members don’t know whether they have or haven’t approved a draft policy statement in favour of a referendum combined with militant agnosticism on Leave versus Remain."
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/labour-conference-begins-in-confusion-over-brexit-and-tom-watson/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,227
    Who wants to talk about private schools?

    No, kidding ☺

    Just seen my 1st "Get Ready!" advert from HMG.

    For an extension, I presume, although it didn't mention that.
  • They are still talking at Thomas Cook. Though some of the options being floated sound extreme. I can't imagine the publicity will do much for their forward revenue stream if they do pull something off.
    https://news.sky.com/story/thomas-cook-begs-lenders-to-slash-200m-demand-11817027
  • HYUFD works for No. 10? Who knew!
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    This idiotic stridency at the heart of government is so painful to see. Boris Johnson has no dignity.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    kinabalu said:

    Who wants to talk about private schools?

    No, kidding ☺

    Just seen my 1st "Get Ready!" advert from HMG.

    For an extension, I presume, although it didn't mention that.

    If it was the one I saw on Sky at halftime in the football it sure wasn’t one which held out any expectation of a deal/transition period.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,855
    That's literally an awesome use of justification.

    No, not the legal arguments, the way they start a line with 'mainiac.'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,468
    Whoever it was who said the movie Ad Astra was not worth anyone's time was very on the money. One of the most bizarrely and unintentionally surreal movie experiences I have encountered in a long time. Without major spoilers, any movie where I am left saying 'what on earth was the point of the space baboon attack?' is an odd one (and not as exciting as that sounds).
  • Must be off now. Into the gloomy rain. Big coat, methinks.

    *sighs*
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    kle4 said:

    Whoever it was who said the movie Ad Astra was not worth anyone's time was very on the money. One of the most bizarrely and unintentionally surreal movie experiences I have encountered in a long time. Without major spoilers, any movie where I am left saying 'what on earth was the point of the space baboon attack?' is an odd one (and not as exciting as that sounds).

    It wasn't me, but I did chime in with the opinion that anything that's heavily advertised it probably not going to be worthwhile. Haven't seen it (yet).
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    ydoethur said:

    That's literally an awesome use of justification.

    No, not the legal arguments, the way they start a line with 'mainiac.'
    One might also point out that the suggestion that judges may be acting against the wishes of our “elected politicians” has a bit of an obvious flaw given the clear lack of support for the Govt’s policy in Parliament...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,468
    Disgraceful. May said something similar around the time of the A50 case, and they might well roll back on these attacks as they did with Kwarteng's, but the tactic is painfully obvious and offensive, bemoaning political opponents seeking legal challenge but also demanding a political decision by the judges, given they continue to emphasise how dare they 'side' with those seeking to cancel a democratic vote, ie the judges should politically decide not to do that regardless of what their view of the law might be.

    And I say that content if the judges were to rule the government's actions had been entirely lawful. But I get the impression they hope that is not the ruling, just more reasons they can complain then.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,784
    kle4 said:

    Whoever it was who said the movie Ad Astra was not worth anyone's time was very on the money. One of the most bizarrely and unintentionally surreal movie experiences I have encountered in a long time. Without major spoilers, any movie where I am left saying 'what on earth was the point of the space baboon attack?' is an odd one (and not as exciting as that sounds).

    As it says on the tin: it is a struggle (per ardua).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,468
    Noo said:

    kle4 said:

    Whoever it was who said the movie Ad Astra was not worth anyone's time was very on the money. One of the most bizarrely and unintentionally surreal movie experiences I have encountered in a long time. Without major spoilers, any movie where I am left saying 'what on earth was the point of the space baboon attack?' is an odd one (and not as exciting as that sounds).

    It wasn't me, but I did chime in with the opinion that anything that's heavily advertised it probably not going to be worthwhile. Haven't seen it (yet).
    That's the thing, I had no idea it existed until about 3 weeks ago, so I'm not sure it has been that heavily advertised given I've been to the cinema about 12 times this year already. But it was so weirdly acted I kept expecting a twist that never came. Good cinematography though.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    kle4 said:

    Disgraceful. May said something similar around the time of the A50 case, and they might well roll back on these attacks as they did with Kwarteng's, but the tactic is painfully obvious and offensive, bemoaning political opponents seeking legal challenge but also demanding a political decision by the judges, given they continue to emphasise how dare they 'side' with those seeking to cancel a democratic vote, ie the judges should politically decide not to do that regardless of what their view of the law might be.

    And I say that content if the judges were to rule the government's actions had been entirely lawful. But I get the impression they hope that is not the ruling, just more reasons they can complain then.
    The Goverment are desperate to avoid no deal. They just want it to be absolutely clear that it is not their fault
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,621
    alex. said:

    kinabalu said:

    Who wants to talk about private schools?

    No, kidding ☺

    Just seen my 1st "Get Ready!" advert from HMG.

    For an extension, I presume, although it didn't mention that.

    If it was the one I saw on Sky at halftime in the football it sure wasn’t one which held out any expectation of a deal/transition period.

    Yes, I saw that one at halftime too.

    I suspect the health insurance one will be pertinent to seasonally migrant pensioners with existing health conditions. While the Isle of Wight is delightful in the summer, the winter there is less attractive. That EHIC may well be missed surely.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    kle4 said:

    Disgraceful. May said something similar around the time of the A50 case, and they might well roll back on these attacks as they did with Kwarteng's, but the tactic is painfully obvious and offensive, bemoaning political opponents seeking legal challenge but also demanding a political decision by the judges, given they continue to emphasise how dare they 'side' with those seeking to cancel a democratic vote, ie the judges should politically decide not to do that regardless of what their view of the law might be.

    And I say that content if the judges were to rule the government's actions had been entirely lawful. But I get the impression they hope that is not the ruling, just more reasons they can complain then.
    The government is acting disgracefully . They’re now trying to put political pressure on the judges. Brexit is destroying everything in its wake.
  • Has no one considered that a 2nd referendum will probably be boycotted by Leavers? If it looks like Remain will win, there is nothing to gain by participating.

    In such a scenario, the referendum will be just as divisive as revoking article 50.

    The only way to maintain a semblance of national unity and cohesion would be to leave to EEA.

    Unfortunately that is not politically viable.

    We’re f*cked either way but we’re probably better off long-term being f*cked whilst remaining in the European Union.

    🔶
    I think EFTA/EEA is very much politically viable.
    Tell that to @HYUFD please. That would be ‘betraying the leave voting working class’ apparently.
    He toes the party line. If the party leadership shifted to an EFTA solution HYUFD would have a dozen arguments about why it is the best solution backed up by polling evidence showing how popular it is.
    And the ERG and Farage would have even more arguments about why it was a betrayal. You just fundamentally don’t understand Brexiteers. If Brexit doesn’t pose an existential threat to the EU, then it will have been for nothing in their eyes.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    kinabalu said:

    Who wants to talk about private schools?

    No, kidding ☺

    Just seen my 1st "Get Ready!" advert from HMG.

    For an extension, I presume, although it didn't mention that.

    If it was the one I saw on Sky at halftime in the football it sure wasn’t one which held out any expectation of a deal/transition period.

    Yes, I saw that one at halftime too.

    I suspect the health insurance one will be pertinent to seasonally migrant pensioners with existing health conditions. While the Isle of Wight is delightful in the summer, the winter there is less attractive. That EHIC may well be missed surely.
    Yes, it’s a good point. And health insurance is only any good if you can get it... It won’t come cheap for some...
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    kle4 said:

    Whoever it was who said the movie Ad Astra was not worth anyone's time was very on the money. One of the most bizarrely and unintentionally surreal movie experiences I have encountered in a long time. Without major spoilers, any movie where I am left saying 'what on earth was the point of the space baboon attack?' is an odd one (and not as exciting as that sounds).

    It wasn't me, but I did chime in with the opinion that anything that's heavily advertised it probably not going to be worthwhile. Haven't seen it (yet).
    That's the thing, I had no idea it existed until about 3 weeks ago, so I'm not sure it has been that heavily advertised given I've been to the cinema about 12 times this year already. But it was so weirdly acted I kept expecting a twist that never came. Good cinematography though.
    I'm talking about advertising outside the cinema, not trailers. I've not been to a film in months, so I've seen no trailers. But I've seen banner ads and heard radio/podcast ads for Ad Astra, more then any film for a long while.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,784
    alex. said:

    kle4 said:

    Disgraceful. May said something similar around the time of the A50 case, and they might well roll back on these attacks as they did with Kwarteng's, but the tactic is painfully obvious and offensive, bemoaning political opponents seeking legal challenge but also demanding a political decision by the judges, given they continue to emphasise how dare they 'side' with those seeking to cancel a democratic vote, ie the judges should politically decide not to do that regardless of what their view of the law might be.

    And I say that content if the judges were to rule the government's actions had been entirely lawful. But I get the impression they hope that is not the ruling, just more reasons they can complain then.
    The Goverment are desperate to avoid no deal. They just want it to be absolutely clear that it is not their fault
    Boris is finished if he comes back with May's WA unamended. So no, I don't think he'd be desperate to avoid no deal in that circumstance.
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