At least this week will provide us wih the definitive list of those Conservative MPs who have a higher opinion of themselves than the voters.
They will soon, rightly, no longer be Conservative MPs.
I hadn’t heard the ERG were being expelled?!
When they oppose the whip they are the heroic voice of the membership. Others who do so are traitors, even if they've voted for brexit more than the Spartans.
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an election, its not exactly going to cost Jezza any votes.
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead in the 3 latest polls since Cummings too over, in 1 of those polls Corbyn Labour was just 1% ahead of the LDs and in another just 3% ahead of the LDs.
If Corbyn backs further extension and continues to block Brexit while refusing to commit to back Remain in all circumstances Boris can just lie back and watch his lead grow as he continues to squeeze the Brexit Party vote while Corbyn risks seeing Labour fall to 3rd behind the LDs.
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Boris will have committed to deliver Brexit and if necessary will prorogue Parliament past October 31st to ensure it is delivered.
I really think you need some kind of help.
The people who need help are diehard Remainers defying the will of the people, this is war now
getting on for 1 million Leavers dead already and going at about 6,000 per week
Of all the arguments that is one that is more than unpleasant and demonstates political ambition is greater than peoples individual iives. It is just unnecessary
Demographics! I know people who voted Remain who are no longer with us as well. Sad to see anyone go but death is part of life and those left behind are more important than who have departed.
I do not disagree but trying to score political points over the deaths of people is bad taste. I would ask would the same point be made if the deaths were predominantly remainers
I would not take it personally. I agree it is not a very attractive way to fight an argument. I think it is just as important to reflect the fact that 1 million young voters will be on the electoral register as the number of those who are no longer with us
It is a fair point. However, we all need to respect life - it is so precious
+1. Campaigning can reflect the light, it does not have to focus on the night.
I still think the best tactic for Remainers is to do nothing. Wait for the clock to 31st October to run down. BoZo does not actually want No Adela and by mid-Oct the impending chaos will force him to extend
He won't extend.
Not because he doesn't want to (he probably does) but because he can't.
And if you take a look at other forums where there realities of parliamentary process have been dissected you will find it is going to be nigh on impossible for remainers to force an extension.
Cummings whole strategy depends on Corbyn agreeing to an election basically?
I think there are three main sides to this latest manoeuvre:
1) The stated one: try and get the rebels to back down, even though that's unlikely to work
2) Avoid the same rebels sitting in the next parliament, as then he would need a bigger majority to implement no deal
3) Give him an excuse to call for a general election once his majority is lost on the promise of it taking place before 31 October
If I was Corbyn I would refuse to be bounced into an election if Johnson calls for one before an extension is agreed. Johnson would be weaker if the election is after 31 October with an extension than if it is before. Forcing him to abandon his "do or die" pledge will help the Brexit party over the Conservatives.
I still think the best tactic for Remainers is to do nothing. Wait for the clock to 31st October to run down. BoZo does not actually want No Adela and by mid-Oct the impending chaos will force him to extend
He isn't bluffing, his premiership requires us to be out or him prevented from taking us out. Probably why hes trying to give his rebels no option other than to back him or be expelled.
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an election, its not exactly going to cost Jezza any votes.
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Boris will have committed to deliver Brexit and if necessary will prorogue Parliament past October 31st to ensure it is delivered.
I really think you need some kind of help.
The people who need help are diehard Remainers defying the will of the people, this is war now
getting on for 1 million Leavers dead already and going at about 6,000 per week
Of all the arguments that is one that is more than unpleasant and demonstates political ambition is greater than peoples individual iives. It is just unnecessary
Demographics! I know people who voted Remain who are no longer with us as well. Sad to see anyone go but death is part of life and those left behind are more important than who have departed.
I do not disagree but trying to score political points over the deaths of people is bad taste. I would ask would the same point be made if the deaths were predominantly remainers
I score no political points except the ludicrous idea of thinking that we should be bound by a vote supposedly representing the "will of the people" over 3 years ago (as if it's Holy Writ) when many of them are no longer here - so don't care, and very many of them were never asked and very much do care.
I accept there has been a demographic change and a referendum today could reverse the decision. However, what if it is the same margin reversed
For me any further referendum must have more than a simple majority to take effect
I do not support no deal and hope Boris to gets one
I dont think introducing different restrictions on a second referendum is quite fair.
I still think the best tactic for Remainers is to do nothing. Wait for the clock to 31st October to run down. BoZo does not actually want No Adela and by mid-Oct the impending chaos will force him to extend
He won't extend.
Not because he doesn't want to (he probably does) but because he can't.
And if you take a look at other forums where there realities of parliamentary process have been dissected you will find it is going to be nigh on impossible for remainers to force an extension.
It is no deal or an election.
No, just replace Boris as PM. it blocks No Deal and No Election.
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead in the 3 latest polls since Cummings too over, in 1 of those polls Corbyn Labour was just 1% ahead of the LDs and in another just 3% ahead of the LDs.
If Corbyn backs further extension and continues to block Brexit while refusing to commit to back Remain in all circumstances Boris can just lie back and watch his lead grow as he continues to squeeze the Brexit Party vote while Corbyn risks seeing Labour fall to 3rd behind the LDs.
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Boris will have committed to deliver Brexit and if necessary will prorogue Parliament past October 31st to ensure it is delivered.
I really think you need some kind of help.
The people who need help are diehard Remainers defying the will of the people, this is war now
getting on for 1 million Leavers dead already and going at about 6,000 per week
Of all the arguments that is one that is more than unpleasant and demonstates political ambition is greater than peoples individual iives. It is just unnecessary
Demographics! I know people who voted Remain who are no longer with us as well. Sad to see anyone go but death is part of life and those left behind are more important than who have departed.
I do not disagree but trying to score political points over the deaths of people is bad taste. I would ask would the same point be made if the deaths were predominantly remainers
I would not take it personally. I agree it is not a very attractive way to fight an argument. I think it is just as important to reflect the fact that 1 million young voters will be on the electoral register as the number of those who are no longer with us
It is a fair point. However, we all need to respect life - it is so precious
+1. Campaigning can reflect the light, it does not have to focus on the night.
If high profile figures like Grieve, Hammond, Gayle, Clarke and Letwin did stand as independent Conservatives in their constituencies, I wonder how many votes they’d get.
Letwin is standing down.
Things change.
I’m not just being a pedant - the difference is real. MPs standing down will have wound down their public appearances, their association chairmen will be looking for replacements, there will be locals who have been supporting various applicants etc.
It’s a whole lot more difficult to turn that into an independent candidacy.
My guess is that a former cabinet minister standing against his own party would attract a great deal of attention.
Johnson must be tearing Cumming's remaining hair out wondering what more he has to do to get the support of the 12 to 16% of electors who hitherto have declined to switch from the Brexit Party to the Conservatives? Might that get their attention?
A tranche of BXP voters are ex-Labour and unlikely to switch to the Tories whatever happens.
Many ex-Lab switchers to the BXP won't. But I think the chances of them switching to the Tories are far greater than of their switching back to Labour. Of 2017 Labour voters who backed Leave, currently 39% would now vote Labour, 24% Brexit and only 4% Conservative (with most of the rest being DKs). But given a two way choice between Johnson and Corbyn as best PM, 40% back Johnson and only 27% Corbyn.
Is Boris eligible to be Trumps VP in 2020? Might be his next jolly jape now he has given up on being PM......
Sadly I think he gave up his US citizenship
Yup he did, and even if he hadn’t, he would have had to have moved to the US no later than January 19th 2007 as he would have had to have been a resident of the US for at least fourteen years before taking office.
JRM asks MPs to support the Govt in its negotiations. I did. I voted for the conclusions of the negotiations brought to Parliament in the WA. JRM, his friends and current Cabinet members did not. Why am I, having loyally supported, now being threatened and not them? https://t.co/vCHLTeufrf
Heard that mooted many a time. I struggle to buy it because Boris's rhetoric has had to be to demand major concessions and very specifically the removal not amendment of the backstop. He couldn't win back BXP voters otherwise.
Theres just no way he can sell to those voters a minor concession as being what he promised - unless the EU say they've ditched the backstop he cannot win those voters and without them he cannot carry the Spartans and the DUP, and without them he cannot get a deal through since we can already see people in labour who will in theory want a deal wont back a Boris deal even though the merit of a deal does not depend on the pm.
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an election, its not exactly going to cost Jezza any votes.
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead in the 3 latest polls since Cummings too over, in 1 of those polls Corbyn Labour was just 1% ahead of the LDs and in another just 3% ahead of the LDs.
If Corbyn backs further extension and continues to block Brexit while refusing to commit to back Remain in all circumstances Boris can just lie back and watch his lead grow as he continues to squeeze the Brexit Party vote while Corbyn risks seeing Labour fall to 3rd behind the LDs.
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Except he will as Boris will almost certainly call a general election by the end of the week and have won an overall majority by mid October to deliver Brexit, Deal or No Deal
It is out of his hands. He can be left dangling until 2022.
If Corbyn chickens out of backing a general election now he will look the biggest coward in political history having done nothing but call for a general election for months, if he backs a general election he will be crushed.
Either way Boris and Cummings have him right where they want him. If Corbyn continues to push for further extension dozens of Labour Leave seats will fall to the Tories
I know you've called a few things correctly recently but Bozo and Cumstain have dropped an enormous bollock. No majority, no chance, no idea.
Good night
Nope, they have largely reunited the Leave vote behind the Tories while Corbyn continues to leak Remainers to the LDs.
They have ensured their side is united while the Remain side is split and riven with division
The polls are irrelevant if there’s no election.
If there's no election Boris is PM and vetos an extension, in Council or using Queen Anne powers if need be.
Does anyone here (except the loonies!) think Johnson is foolhardy enough to advise the Queen to veto legislation passed by the Commons and Lords?
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an election, its not exactly going to cost Jezza any votes.
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Boris will have committed to deliver Brexit and if necessary will prorogue Parliament past October 31st to ensure it is delivered.
I really think you need some kind of help.
The people who need help are diehard Remainers defying the will of the people, this is war now
getting on for 1 million Leavers dead already and going at about 6,000 per week
Of all the arguments that is one that is more than unpleasant and demonstates political ambition is greater than peoples individual iives. It is just unnecessary
Demographics! I know people who voted Remain who are no longer with us as well. Sad to see anyone go but death is part of life and those left behind are more important than who have departed.
I do not disagree but trying to score political points over the deaths of people is bad taste. I would ask would the same point be made if the deaths were predominantly remainers
I score no political points except the ludicrous idea of thinking that we should be bound by a vote supposedly representing the "will of the people" over 3 years ago (as if it's Holy Writ) when many of them are no longer here - so don't care, and very many of them were never asked and very much do care.
For me any further referendum must have more than a simple majority to take effect
I do not support no deal and hope Boris to gets one
I dont think introducing different restrictions on a second referendum is quite fair.
Maybe but it would be wise
Confused by this. I could understand saying running a second referendum at all isn't wise but to run one and say 'sorry, we're still leaving, remain only got 52%' would seem very much in the 'unwise' category.
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an election, its not exactly going to cost Jezza any votes.
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Boris will have committed to deliver Brexit and if necessary will prorogue Parliament past October 31st to ensure it is delivered.
I really think you need some kind of help.
The people who need help are diehard Remainers defying the will of the people, this is war now
getting on for 1 million Leavers dead already and going at about 6,000 per week
Of all the arguments that is one that is more than unpleasant and demonstates political ambition is greater than peoples individual iives. It is just unnecessary
Demographics! I know people who voted Remain who are no longer with us as well. Sad to see anyone go but death is part of life and those left behind are more important than who have departed.
I do not disagree but trying to score political points over the deaths of people is bad taste. I would ask would the same point be made if the deaths were predominantly remainers
I score no political points except the ludicrous idea of thinking that we should be bound by a vote supposedly representing the "will of the people" over much do care.
I accept there has been a demographic change and a referendum today could reverse the decision. However, what if it is the same margin reversed
For me any further referendum must have more than a simple majority to take effect
I do not support no deal and hope Boris to gets one
I dont think introducing different restrictions on a second referendum is quite fair.
Maybe but it would be wise
It might have been wise to have a threshold for the first one - many countries have them - but imposing additional restrictions afterwards does not seem wise to me.
So. If Corbyn refuses to have an election at Boris’s command, he will be accused of being frit.
Considering the government has constantly told us that the public does not want an election, its not exactly going to cost Jezza any votes.
Therefore, he has nothing to lose. He just needs to make Boris stew.
The Tory Party has 2 11% leads and 1 7% lead in the 3 latest polls since Cummings too over, in 1 of those polls Corbyn Labour was just 1% ahead of the LDs and in another just 3% ahead of the LDs.
If Corbyn backs further extension and continues to block Brexit while refusing to commit to back Remain in all circumstances Boris can just lie back and watch his lead grow as he continues to squeeze the Brexit Party vote while Corbyn risks seeing Labour fall to 3rd behind the LDs.
Except he won’t have delivered Brexit and won’t be able to govern.
Except he will as Boris will almost certainly call a general election by the end of the week and have won an overall majority by mid October to deliver Brexit, Deal or No Deal
It is out of his hands. He can be left dangling until 2022.
If Corbyn chickens out of backing a general election now he will look the biggest coward in political history having done nothing but call for a general election for months, if he backs a general election he will be crushed.
Either way Boris and Cummings have him right where they want him. If Corbyn continues to push for further extension dozens of Labour Leave seats will fall to the Tories
I know you've called a few things correctly recently but Bozo and Cumstain have dropped an enormous bollock. No majority, no chance, no idea.
Good night
Nope, they have largely reunited the Leave vote behind the Tories while Corbyn continues to leak Remainers to the LDs.
They have ensured their side is united while the Remain side is split and riven with division
The polls are irrelevant if there’s no election.
If there's no election Boris is PM and vetos an extension, in Council or using Queen Anne powers if need be.
Does anyone here (except the loonies!) think Johnson is foolhardy enough to advise the Queen to veto legislation passed by the Commons and Lords?
Brexit do or die - he would do anything if he had to.
At least this week will provide us wih the definitive list of those Conservative MPs who have a higher opinion of themselves than the voters.
They will soon, rightly, no longer be Conservative MPs.
I hadn’t heard the ERG were being expelled?!
When they oppose the whip they are the heroic voice of the membership. Others who do so are traitors, even if they've voted for brexit more than the Spartans.
Stop conflating just May's deal with "for Brexit".
In March there were three votes in three days "for Brexit". May's deal was just one of them, no deal was also voted on and extension or no extension was another.
I think the Spartans voted for Brexit more than Grieves did. They just didn't vote May's version of it.
The people who need help are diehard Remainers defying the will of the people, this is war now
I have been away for the weekend. If you can point to any Remainers describing the Brexit debate as a war I will happily give them the same advice.
Guilty as charged, see below.
The point is, even given the normal.robustness of politics, that Johnson and Cummings are conducting this as war not politics, and remain leaders should be constantly alive to that fact in determining their range of counters and their need to deploy them. HYUFD's war talk seems to me an accurate reflection of his master's voice.
Today confirms to anti no dealers, if we didn't know already, that this is full on war, every rule to be abused, every tactic fair game, every advantage to be taken. Fine, every parliamentary, legal, popular and other avenue should be fair game for us too, we need to, to use war metaphor, take the medieval ball flail and aim it at Boris's bollock height.
Let us hope those who state that No Deal can be avoided as the end game for this battle, our leaders, are right.
No, just replace Boris as PM. No Deal and No Election.
There aren't the votes for that to work.
Or rather there aren't enough to coalesce around an alternative.
For all the reasons that have been explored at great length.
BJ seems intent on adding to the numbers that can make it happen. Politics is about inertia and gravity. If two dozen Tories lose the whip he will suffer a catastrophic loss of inertia and his authority will deminish. Cummings is an oppositionalist not a governmentalist. By this i am saying he will advise a strategy that might work in opposition but fail in power.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Might as well be now given all the recent spending announcements and even higher than usual posturing by all concerned. But it being official may well come as a relief, despite it promising to be massively bitter and lacking a guarantee of achieving resolution.
The last time a VONC was carried in the House of Commons was on 28th March 1979. Gloria Gaynor was at number one with I Will Survive, replacing Tragedy by the Bee Gees.
For all the talk about how this could "cost" Boris his majority, I've not heard anyone suggest how Boris having a notional majority but no ability to exercise it is any better. I've not heard anyone explain why being in office but not in power is better.
Seems to me May screwed up in 2017 and the only way to get Brexit through now is to go back to the polls if need be. Nobody can talk about a lack of a mandate then.
JRM asks MPs to support the Govt in its negotiations. I did. I voted for the conclusions of the negotiations brought to Parliament in the WA. JRM, his friends and current Cabinet members did not. Why am I, having loyally supported, now being threatened and not them? https://t.co/vCHLTeufrf
Major wasn't a coward either. Boris is doing the same as Major.
Well that’s a happy precedent for Boris! You might want to look up what happened to the Major government and the Tory party after it ended.
It was the end of an 18 year period of office which led to Labour adopting Tory policies in order to get elected.
It wasn't Maastricht being passed which led to Blair's landslide.
Point of Order! Labour adopted SOME Tory policies. Primarily around spending plans. Getting rid of Clause 4 was significant, but hardly Tory. However, the government was so unpopular, and the majority so large, that they can hardly have been decisive. My view remains that had John Smith lived, he would have waltzed home. Not by quite as many, but by plenty enough.
At least this week will provide us wih the definitive list of those Conservative MPs who have a higher opinion of themselves than the voters.
They will soon, rightly, no longer be Conservative MPs.
I hadn’t heard the ERG were being expelled?!
When they oppose the whip they are the heroic voice of the membership. Others who do so are traitors, even if they've voted for brexit more than the Spartans.
Stop conflating just May's deal with "for Brexit".
In March there were three votes in three days "for Brexit". May's deal was just one of them, no deal was also voted on and extension or no extension was another.
I think the Spartans voted for Brexit more than Grieves did. They just didn't vote May's version of it.
How much H of C support did No Deal get? Just to remind us...
"It is the people, not an unelected prime minister, who should determine our country’s future.
A general election is the democratic way forward. And in that election Labour will give the people the chance to take back control and have the final say in a public vote, with credible options for both sides, including the option to Remain."
At least this week will provide us wih the definitive list of those Conservative MPs who have a higher opinion of themselves than the voters.
They will soon, rightly, no longer be Conservative MPs.
I hadn’t heard the ERG were being expelled?!
When they oppose the whip they are the heroic voice of the membership. Others who do so are traitors, even if they've voted for brexit more than the Spartans.
Stop conflating just May's deal with "for Brexit".
In March there were three votes in three days "for Brexit". May's deal was just one of them, no deal was also voted on and extension or no extension was another.
I think the Spartans voted for Brexit more than Grieves did. They just didn't vote May's version of it.
I'll conflate whatever I like - their actions might well lead to us remaining, no matter how you and they whinge to high heaven that wah wah it isn't our fault. You're not a Boris fanatic but even he knew those opposing the WA might cause remaining, so even the glorious leader by implication is agreeing with me that the Spartans kept remain alive as an option. They cannot escape that consequence no matter it was not their intention. Being supportive in theory for brexit while taking action which might lead to remaining puts the Spartans on the level of Nandy and co. They might yet win and get no deal, but they get no praise for purity if we remain. And they dont get to play martyr.
And you know damn well I have condemned Grieve and co just as much or even more than the Spartans, since the Spartans are at least generally honest in their intentions.
Heard that mooted many a time. I struggle to buy it because Boris's rhetoric has had to be to demand major concessions and very specifically the removal not amendment of the backstop. He couldn't win back BXP voters otherwise.
Theres just no way he can sell to those voters a minor concession as being what he promised - unless the EU say they've ditched the backstop he cannot win those voters and without them he cannot carry the Spartans and the DUP, and without them he cannot get a deal through since we can already see people in labour who will in theory want a deal wont back a Boris deal even though the merit of a deal does not depend on the pm.
He could always expel the Remainers, then the Spartans, then have the Boris Party in opposition. I sneakily feel he might like that.
Would the no-dealers consider legislating to change the Fixed Term Parliament Act in order to require a General Election to be held with a given time period so it couldn't span the 31 October (even if so that would be highly unlikely now given the positioning of Parliament v People)?
"It is the people, not an unelected prime minister, who should determine our country’s future.
A general election is the democratic way forward. And in that election Labour will give the people the chance to take back control and have the final say in a public vote, with credible options for both sides, including the option to Remain."
"It is the people, not an unelected prime minister, who should determine our country’s future.
A general election is the democratic way forward. And in that election Labour will give the people the chance to take back control and have the final say in a public vote, with credible options for both sides, including the option to Remain."
Corbyn's up for an election and Boris will give him what he wants when Parliament legislates against No Deal.
Get ready...
No, just remove BJ. Stop No Deal. No election.
That's not what Jezza wants though... Jezza wants an election now because he knows his time to become PM is slipping away.
As I've been saying all the way along, and Corbyn has confirmed in the Guardian today, he and the Labour Party will vote for a general election is its offered by the PM.
The PM will offer him that election this week when Parliament legislates to stop No Deal.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
Not sure to be honest. As there's the European Council summit starting 17th October I would have thoought they would want the election before that (maybe on 10th October) but who knows?
There's nothing in law that says an election has to be on a Thursday either I don't think? Perhaps we'll go the polls on Monday 14th October or something?
I could see it being appealing to MPs. When you say it will not happen, what you really mean is your afraid it will as No Deal Brexit will be blocked and BJ will be finished.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
Not sure to be honest. As there's the European Council summit starting 17th October I would have thoought they would want the election before that (maybe on 10th October) but who knows?
There's nothing in law that says an election has to be on a Thursday either I don't think? Perhaps we'll go the polls on Monday 14th October or something?
lol. I would have thought that will disrupt the old, who are creatures of habit.
That's not what Jezza wants though... Jezza wants an election now because he knows his time to become PM is slipping away.
As I've been saying all the way along, and Corbyn has confirmed in the Guardian today, he and the Labour Party will vote for a general election is its offered by the PM.
The PM will offer him that election this week when Parliament legislates to stop No Deal.
The last time a VONC was carried in the House of Commons was on 28th March 1979. Gloria Gaynor was at number one with I Will Survive, replacing Tragedy by the Bee Gees.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
It's 25 working days from parliament rising isn't it? IIRC, the date when parliament rises is the key date under the PMs control in the FTPA, and the means by which the delay of a GE would be achieved. Given prorogation is already at hand, the gymnastics required to delay an election beyond October 31st must have increased considerably. Oct 17th seems to me very likely for any GE.
When you read what McDonnell is planning it makes Brexit look like a complete irrelevance.
I voted Remain and of course Brexit is going to be very damaging, especially in the short-term.
But McDonnell's plans are of a completely different order of magnitude.
Every sane Conservative now needs to shut up and let Boris get Brexit done.
Where did you read about McDonnell? Probably, the DM. DT. DE or the Sun. The Brexit supporting media are publishing nothing but pro-Boris propoganda and making stories up out of nothing about McDonnell. I voted Tory in 2017 and every GE since getting the vote a long time ago. I will vote LD or possibly Labour if I have too. No Deal will wreck the economy. I cannot vote for that...
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
It's 25 working days from parliament rising isn't it? IIRC, the date when parliament rises is the key date under the PMs control in the FTPA, and the means by which the delay of a GE would be achieved. Given prorogation is already at hand, the gymnastics required to delay an election beyond October 31st must have increased considerably. Oct 17th seems to me very likely for any GE.
Two weeks isn't long for an incoming government to negotiate a new deal.
When you read what McDonnell is planning it makes Brexit look like a complete irrelevance.
I voted Remain and of course Brexit is going to be very damaging, especially in the short-term.
But McDonnell's plans are of a completely different order of magnitude.
Every sane Conservative now needs to shut up and let Boris get Brexit done.
Where did you read about McDonnell? Probably, the DM. DT. DE or the Sun. The Brexit supporting media are publishing nothing but pro-Boris propoganda and making stories up out of nothing about McDonnell. I voted Tory in 2017 and every GE since getting the vote a long time ago. I will vote LD or possibly Labour if I have too. No Deal will wreck the economy. I cannot vote for that...
Does anyone recall the pearl clutching about the Marxist Garden Tax? Fact is stuff like this is popular. I have no permanent home, here is a chance of one. Meanwhile, BTL landlords will be driven away from a sincere intention of voting Labour in their literal handfuls.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
It's 25 working days from parliament rising isn't it? IIRC, the date when parliament rises is the key date under the PMs control in the FTPA, and the means by which the delay of a GE would be achieved. Given prorogation is already at hand, the gymnastics required to delay an election beyond October 31st must have increased considerably. Oct 17th seems to me very likely for any GE.
Two weeks isn't long for an incoming government to negotiate a new deal.
Presumably if Con wins we leave with No Deal.
If Lab wins they will immiditaly ask for an extenstion pending a second referendum.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
It's 25 working days from parliament rising isn't it? IIRC, the date when parliament rises is the key date under the PMs control in the FTPA, and the means by which the delay of a GE would be achieved. Given prorogation is already at hand, the gymnastics required to delay an election beyond October 31st must have increased considerably. Oct 17th seems to me very likely for any GE.
Two weeks isn't long for an incoming government to negotiate a new deal.
When you read what McDonnell is planning it makes Brexit look like a complete irrelevance.
I voted Remain and of course Brexit is going to be very damaging, especially in the short-term.
But McDonnell's plans are of a completely different order of magnitude.
Every sane Conservative now needs to shut up and let Boris get Brexit done.
Where did you read about McDonnell? Probably, the DM. DT. DE or the Sun. The Brexit supporting media are publishing nothing but pro-Boris propoganda and making stories up out of nothing about McDonnell. I voted Tory in 2017 and every GE since getting the vote a long time ago. I will vote LD or possibly Labour if I have too. No Deal will wreck the economy. I cannot vote for that...
Does anyone recall the pearl clutching about the Marxist Garden Tax? Fact is stuff like this is popular. I have no permanent home, here is a chance of one. Meanwhile, BTL landlords will be driven away from a sincere intention of voting Labour in their literal handfuls.
Indeed. I have seen anti-Labour headlines that are just propoganda that is anti-labour and has little factual basis or link between the headline and story. People are unwittingly led by the press and irrational fears are created.
Corbyn is going to need more than the promise to raid the pensions of savers to win a GE.
If he doesn't come down hard for remain Labour are going to be gutted out from both sides.
Certainly it's looking difficult for Labour to achieve the high 30s percent. But as we saw at the last election, the FPTP system concentrates minds. Tory-Labour marginals are still Tory-Labour marginals, no matter how much voters might want to vote for a more Remain (or more Brexit) party. Speaking of which, it all comes down to whether Farage will be a spoiler, and how much of one. I doubt Farage trusts Johnson, but helping him to be defeated is a risky strategy.
Again. I own no shares. Maybe I can own some. Meanwhile shareholders flee voting Labour in their tens.
You do realise how many millions of voters have DC or stakeholder pensions?
Labour's share plan will come out their pockets.
You do realise how many of them are aware of that? You are also aware that the headlines are pensions at 75? You are also aware that 75 equals dead/not in a fit state to enjoy it?
When you read what McDonnell is planning it makes Brexit look like a complete irrelevance.
I voted Remain and of course Brexit is going to be very damaging, especially in the short-term.
But McDonnell's plans are of a completely different order of magnitude.
Every sane Conservative now needs to shut up and let Boris get Brexit done.
Where did you read about McDonnell? Probably, the DM. DT. DE or the Sun. The Brexit supporting media are publishing nothing but pro-Boris propoganda and making stories up out of nothing about McDonnell. I voted Tory in 2017 and every GE since getting the vote a long time ago. I will vote LD or possibly Labour if I have too. No Deal will wreck the economy. I cannot vote for that...
I appreciate you may not have the subscription but the FT started a 2-week detailed serialization yesterday on Corbynomics.
John McD doesn't hide his views, got to give him credit for that. He doesn't believe the invisible hand of the market is the best way of pricing goods. He equates the state with the worker and seems to believe that the state should take a 10% stake gratis, in all medium to large businesses (presumably a first step). He also seems to have a fairly casual attitude to the protection of property rights for wealth created under "the old" system.
Vote for it, don't vote for it. I don't really care.
To all those hoping that the plan is to keep Boris a prisoner in No 10, by blocking a No Deal Brexit but not backing a General Election.
1) Boris loses the legislative battle this week. 2) He asks for a general election (pre Brexit election date). Corbyn says no. 3) Conference silly season, which Boris uses to unveil election friendly pro-market low tax policies. 4) Queen's Speech includes said policies, as well as the explicit statement that the UK will legislate to leave with No Deal if required. 5) Queen's Speech gets voted down. 6) FTPA becomes an irrelevance. By convention Boris would still go to the Palace to resign, whereupon he would ask Betty Windsor to invite the official leader of the opposition to form a government. 7) Who would then fail to gain the confidence of the House. 8) Possibly some further bumbling about but at the end of it all, the only way out is an election 9) People vs Parliament election, with the added bonus for Boris that Corbyn could be branded as scared of the people.
Looks to me that depending on the events of this week, we either get: a) No Deal on 31 October b) Pre Xmas & pre Brexit general election c) extremely distant third: a new negotiated deal before 31 Oct.
Well it looks very much as if we are heading for a General Election. It will probably be voted through this week, or conceivably early next.
Along with others on here I suggested some months ago that an autumn GE was odds-on but events since muddied the waters. It now looks pretty inevitable. Perhaps Corbyn could have strung out the Conservatives for a while and seen Johnson's star fall further but he now looks likely to throw his weight behind an election vote. This may have been the Cummings strategy all along. Cummings is fired by his narcissistic self-belief because of the Leave win. This reminds me very much of Cameron's self-belief that following Scottish IndyRef he would perform a similar feat with the EU Vote. Hubris.
It's a high risk strategy for both Johnson and Corbyn. But perhaps for the country's sake there's no alternative.
Labour will create a share-owning democracy? Sounds positively Thatcherite.
If it's the scheme that was talked about earlier, then no. The shares will not be held by the workers, but a worker-led organisation. The employees then get a small dividend per year - up to a maximum - with any 'excess' dividend being a tax.
But they wouldn't be your shares, and you cannot sell them.
I think by Friday we'll be at the start of a general election campaign.
Is 17th October the earliest date? (Apologies if I've asked the same question before).
It's 25 working days from parliament rising isn't it? IIRC, the date when parliament rises is the key date under the PMs control in the FTPA, and the means by which the delay of a GE would be achieved. Given prorogation is already at hand, the gymnastics required to delay an election beyond October 31st must have increased considerably. Oct 17th seems to me very likely for any GE.
Two weeks isn't long for an incoming government to negotiate a new deal.
Presumably if Con wins we leave with No Deal.
If Lab wins they will immiditaly ask for an extenstion pending a second referendum.
Comments
Not because he doesn't want to (he probably does) but because he can't.
And if you take a look at other forums where there realities of parliamentary process have been dissected you will find it is going to be nigh on impossible for remainers to force an extension.
It is no deal or an election.
https://twitter.com/politicalhackuk/status/1168282355922079745?s=21
Calling an election would no longer be in the government's hands.
Or rather there aren't enough to coalesce around an alternative.
For all the reasons that have been explored at great length.
It wasn't Maastricht being passed which led to Blair's landslide.
Theres just no way he can sell to those voters a minor concession as being what he promised - unless the EU say they've ditched the backstop he cannot win those voters and without them he cannot carry the Spartans and the DUP, and without them he cannot get a deal through since we can already see people in labour who will in theory want a deal wont back a Boris deal even though the merit of a deal does not depend on the pm.
https://twitter.com/rossthomson_mp/status/1168090440337375232?s=21
In March there were three votes in three days "for Brexit". May's deal was just one of them, no deal was also voted on and extension or no extension was another.
I think the Spartans voted for Brexit more than Grieves did. They just didn't vote May's version of it.
The point is, even given the normal.robustness of politics, that Johnson and Cummings are conducting this as war not politics, and remain leaders should be constantly alive to that fact in determining their range of counters and their need to deploy them. HYUFD's war talk seems to me an accurate reflection of his master's voice.
Seems to me May screwed up in 2017 and the only way to get Brexit through now is to go back to the polls if need be. Nobody can talk about a lack of a mandate then.
My view remains that had John Smith lived, he would have waltzed home. Not by quite as many, but by plenty enough.
"It is the people, not an unelected prime minister, who should determine our country’s future.
A general election is the democratic way forward. And in that election Labour will give the people the chance to take back control and have the final say in a public vote, with credible options for both sides, including the option to Remain."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/31/final-sovereignty-on-brexit-must-rest-with-the-people--jeremy-corbyn
Corbyn's up for an election and Boris will give him what he wants when Parliament legislates against No Deal.
Get ready...
And you know damn well I have condemned Grieve and co just as much or even more than the Spartans, since the Spartans are at least generally honest in their intentions.
Good night.
As I've been saying all the way along, and Corbyn has confirmed in the Guardian today, he and the Labour Party will vote for a general election is its offered by the PM.
The PM will offer him that election this week when Parliament legislates to stop No Deal.
There's nothing in law that says an election has to be on a Thursday either I don't think? Perhaps we'll go the polls on Monday 14th October or something?
I voted Remain and of course Brexit is going to be very damaging, especially in the short-term.
But McDonnell's plans are of a completely different order of magnitude.
Every sane Conservative now needs to shut up and let Boris get Brexit done.
Boris and Corbyn's interests are aligned.
Meanwhile, BTL landlords will be driven away from a sincere intention of voting Labour in their literal handfuls.
If Lab wins they will immiditaly ask for an extenstion pending a second referendum.
If Lib wins they'll revoke.
#EndGame
Labour would cost companies £300bn by shifting shares to staff"
https://www.ft.com
If he doesn't come down hard for remain Labour are going to be gutted out from both sides.
"GOV.UK
Get ready for Brexit
The UK will leave the EU on 31 October 2019.
Answer a few questions to find out how you or your business should prepare."
https://www.gov.uk/brexit
Labour's share plan will come out their pockets.
John McD doesn't hide his views, got to give him credit for that. He doesn't believe the invisible hand of the market is the best way of pricing goods. He equates the state with the worker and seems to believe that the state should take a 10% stake gratis, in all medium to large businesses (presumably a first step). He also seems to have a fairly casual attitude to the protection of property rights for wealth created under "the old" system.
Vote for it, don't vote for it. I don't really care.
Labour will create a share-owning democracy? Sounds positively Thatcherite.
1) Boris loses the legislative battle this week.
2) He asks for a general election (pre Brexit election date). Corbyn says no.
3) Conference silly season, which Boris uses to unveil election friendly pro-market low tax policies.
4) Queen's Speech includes said policies, as well as the explicit statement that the UK will legislate to leave with No Deal if required.
5) Queen's Speech gets voted down.
6) FTPA becomes an irrelevance. By convention Boris would still go to the Palace to resign, whereupon he would ask Betty Windsor to invite the official leader of the opposition to form a government.
7) Who would then fail to gain the confidence of the House.
8) Possibly some further bumbling about but at the end of it all, the only way out is an election
9) People vs Parliament election, with the added bonus for Boris that Corbyn could be branded as scared of the people.
Looks to me that depending on the events of this week, we either get:
a) No Deal on 31 October
b) Pre Xmas & pre Brexit general election
c) extremely distant third: a new negotiated deal before 31 Oct.
https://apple.news/A2lzzMJgcRwajQC4AZsRYoA
Along with others on here I suggested some months ago that an autumn GE was odds-on but events since muddied the waters. It now looks pretty inevitable. Perhaps Corbyn could have strung out the Conservatives for a while and seen Johnson's star fall further but he now looks likely to throw his weight behind an election vote. This may have been the Cummings strategy all along. Cummings is fired by his narcissistic self-belief because of the Leave win. This reminds me very much of Cameron's self-belief that following Scottish IndyRef he would perform a similar feat with the EU Vote. Hubris.
It's a high risk strategy for both Johnson and Corbyn. But perhaps for the country's sake there's no alternative.
How ironic if the winner is Jo Swinson.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/01/brexiteers-must-bring-john-bercow-launches-ruthless-plot-yet/
But they wouldn't be your shares, and you cannot sell them.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1168371674208751618?s=20