The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
if we do no deal and the next day the cars and the HGV's are flowing across the border unrestricted and Terry the terrorist is with his mate saying "where is this fecking hard border then." Some people are going to look like right chumps.
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are wrong. If NI votes to leave the UK they are gone, just as if the Scottish independence referendum had gone the other way then Scotland would have gone independent. Even if Dumfries and Galloway or the Scottish Borders had voted No they would not be partitioned.
I would not be so sure about that at all, the Scottish Borders could well have a good case to stay in the UK if they voted strongly that way in any indyref2 and Scotland as a whole voted to Leave the UK as they are right on the border with England and if they wanted to do so.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
So you mean like the Tories refused a softer Brexit due to the threat of the Brexit Party? In fact this whole charade is because the Tories were afraid of UKIP.
The lack of self awareness is mind blowing.
Indeed both parties are responsible for their own actions and a compromise is only possible if both parties reach an accord the other can ratify and if they fail that is the responsibility of both parties.
Anyone who thinks one party alone is responsible is an ignorant fool.
Not when your idea of a ‘compromise’ is something that cant be given.
Like demanding the undemocratic backstop for example?
If a compromise is something that can't be given it is not a compromise and both parties have failed to reach a compromise.
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because it agrees with you but not accepting the same for another subdivision (with apologies to the Scot Nats) when it doesn't. That is hypocrisy. I'm very pro-British but being pro-British means accepting when your country has got something wrong. Antrim and Down were in Ireland long before they were in the UK. If NI votes to rejoin Ireland we cannot make the same mistake again and keep certain bits.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
Every defeat of Brexit is a victory for all of us.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reason why an election is called.
People voted to leave because we are sick of being told by foreign countries what we can and cannot do with our own borders.
If our border checks with Ireland consist of two huts and an arthritic eighty year old night watchman with myopia, job done.
That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
I'm struggling to understand what the Irish are going to do to us if we stick up a border that consists of a myopic octagenarian and a very long bit of string. Invade? Put up a border of their own?
The backstop does not make us unfree because, in reality, we can leave it as easily as we like. You don't accept that I know. It's flawed but then humanity is flawed. The EU isn't sending an army over to ensure compliance. If it were you might have a point - as it is we are a nuclear armed country that can walk away from any arrangement with Europe whenever we like however we like. Ireland does not have that luxury.
My Oxford entrance exam, the high point of my academic career given it went rapidly downhill thereafter, was answering the question "What Constitutes a State?". In a nutshell I said a 'state' was any piece of land you could successfully defend from potential aggressors. It got me, wholly undeservedly, into Oxford. But it is true. So long as we can successfully defend ourselves we can walk from the backstop/EU when we like - always could.
And WTF does "I am talking about what is lawful not what is criminal" even mean?
Indeed so if we don't want the backstop we walk away now. No problem. Why walk away in the future from what is unacceptable when we can walk away today? I'd rather be honest with outselves.
You were suggesting there were crimes in the past. I know there were crimes in the past. I don't see to justify or excuse crimes. Crime happens and we try to prevent it, but I don't think we can ever prevent it 100%.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
Fourth Scottish Expedition (phase 1) winding down for the week, did railway from Ayr to Stranraer on Tuesday, Croy to Larbert to Dundee on Wednesday and Perth to Aviemore today. Also added Strathspey Railway (Aviemore to Broomhill). Phase 2 in a couple of weeks.
Implement a trusted trader scheme off our own bat.
It’s up to the EU what the RoI does
Again, no it's not. If we have an open border for EU widgets we would need to have an open border for, say, US widgets. So either we have no tariffs for anything or we have a border
Implement a trusted trader scheme off our own bat.
It’s up to the EU what the RoI does
Again, no it's not. If we have an open border for EU widgets we would need to have an open border for, say, US widgets. So either we have no tariffs for anything or we have a border
The problem with leaving the EU is not the tariffs- its the non tariff barriers and product definitions. In the examples you give goods must comply with the precise years.
If that *is* what you voted for then you are worse than fools.
Actually Counties Antrim and Down both voted Leave so it is the backstop which also risks reviving the Troubles with an Irish sea border leading to a revival of loyalist paramilitaries in republican areas
Loyalist paramilitaries existed to keep the Catholic population down when it was behaving in a manner not exactly the same a a doormat, and keep the Protestant population on top, in the same manner as the KKK in the Southern US. As a result that is not a likely scenario.
No it is a very likely scenario, loyalist paramilitaries existed to keep Protestant areas of Northern Ireland in the UK and preserve their culture and take on the IRA, if they feel Protestant Ulster is under threat again they will return to take up arms again
No - loyalist paramilitaries existed to preserve the Protestant ascendancy in NI over the Catholic population and prevent their obtaining civil rights.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
But you are still a diehard remainer. Are you one of the diehard remainers who are loyal to the UK?
The plan for alternative arrangements is there. It can be introduced on the basis of a series of commitments made by the UK that are objectively met or not met, rather than on the judgement of the EU, avoiding the need for a backstop. There will probably need to be a bit 'more' in it for the ROI in it to justify them changing their position.
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reason why an election is called.
People voted to leave because we are sick of being told by foreign countries what we can and cannot do with our own borders.
If our border checks with Ireland consist of two huts and an arthritic eighty year old night watchman with myopia, job done.
That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
I'm struggling to understand what the Irish are going to do to us if we stick up a border that consists of a myopic octagenarian and a very long bit of string. Invade? Put up a border of their own?
Call. Their. Bluff.
That post was one of the several reasons I wrote my header. We can't put up a border.
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
You're making up ifs rather than dealing with the world as it is. The WTO isn't telling us we need to have border checks and border posts. The WTO isn't saying we can't do checks away from the border.
if we do no deal and the next day the cars and the HGV's are flowing across the border unrestricted and Terry the terrorist is with his mate saying "where is this fecking hard border then." Some people are going to look like right chumps.
Remind me when freedom of movement between north and south was introduced?
Terry the terrorist didn't give a feck that then either.
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reason why an election is called.
People voted to leave because we are sick of being told by foreign countries what we can and cannot do with our own borders.
If our border checks with Ireland consist of two huts and an arthritic eighty year old night watchman with myopia, job done.
That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
I'm struggling to understand what the Irish are going to do to us if we stick up a border that consists of a myopic octagenarian and a very long bit of string. Invade? Put up a border of their own?
Call. Their. Bluff.
That post was one of the several reasons I wrote my header. We can't put up a border.
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reason why an election is called.
People voted to leave because we are sick of being told by foreign countries what we can and cannot do with our own borders.
If our border checks with Ireland consist of two huts and an arthritic eighty year old night watchman with myopia, job done.
That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
I'm struggling to understand what the Irish are going to do to us if we stick up a border that consists of a myopic octagenarian and a very long bit of string. Invade? Put up a border of their own?
Call. Their. Bluff.
That post was one of the several reasons I wrote my header. We can't put up a border.
No we can't militarily enforce a border.
A border is already up. It already exists for alcohol duties, tobacco duties, corporation tax, VAT, income tax, national insurance and more.
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
You're making up ifs rather than dealing with the world as it is. The WTO isn't telling us we need to have border checks and border posts. The WTO isn't saying we can't do checks away from the border.
But they might. It's a risk we can't take. I thought you were the one, when dealing with Treasury forecasts, who said that they should have forecast contingent actions.
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because it agrees with you but not accepting the same for another subdivision (with apologies to the Scot Nats) when it doesn't. That is hypocrisy. I'm very pro-British but being pro-British means accepting when your country has got something wrong. Antrim and Down were in Ireland long before they were in the UK. If NI votes to rejoin Ireland we cannot make the same mistake again and keep certain bits.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchist member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because it agrees with you but not accepting the same for another subdivision (with apologies to the Scot Nats) when it doesn't. That is hypocrisy. I'm very pro-British but being pro-British means accepting when your country has got something wrong. Antrim and Down were in Ireland long before they were in the UK. If NI votes to rejoin Ireland we cannot make the same mistake again and keep certain bits.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchies member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
Do you think Scotland should be partitioned too if some parts vote No?
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
But you are still a diehard remainer. Are you one of the diehard remainers who are loyal to the UK?
Yes as I respect the will of the British people rather than turning to Brussels to try and overturn it
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
There's also an old adage that people who are busy making money are too busy to make trouble. I would argue economic prosperity and capitalism were the key weapons in ending the Troubles as much as American Presidents and British Prime Ministers.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
That’s the kind of talk that got Jo Cox murdered.
Funny, I've never noticed your admonitions about inflammatory language when your fellow remainers talk of show trails and traitors.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because it agrees with you but not accepting the same for another n Ireland we cannot make the same mistake again and keep certain bits.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchies member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
Do you think Scotland should be partitioned too if some parts vote No?
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
So how can you bear to live in this country under an oligarchy which you get to keep, or swap for another oligarchy, every five years? It's called a democracy of course but so are Russia, Congo and N Korea. If you want brexit to happen and a plebiscite which should never have been held happened to go in your favour, bully for you, but enough already with the misty eyed Did Magna Carta die in vain bollocks.
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
You're making up ifs rather than dealing with the world as it is. The WTO isn't telling us we need to have border checks and border posts. The WTO isn't saying we can't do checks away from the border.
But they might. It's a risk we can't take. I thought you were the one, when dealing with Treasury forecasts, who said that they should have forecast contingent actions.
Its a risk we can take. I have said I am prepared to accept risk.
We do as we please and argue the case as it stands.
If we win the case, then case closed.
If we lose the case then I suggest we proceed as we did with Hirst v United Kingdom (No 2) and ignore the ruling. Case closed.
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
There's also an old adage that people who are busy making money are too busy to make trouble. I would argue economic prosperity and capitalism were the key weapons in ending the Troubles as much as American Presidents and British Prime Ministers.
Most loyalist paramilitaries are working class not rich
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because it agrees with you but not accepting the same for another n Ireland we cannot make the same mistake again and keep certain bits.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchies member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
Do you think Scotland should be partitioned too if some parts vote No?
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
So you also see a case for keeping Scotland in the EU customs union and single market?
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
That’s the kind of talk that got Jo Cox murdered.
Funny, I've never noticed your admonitions about inflammatory language when your fellow remainers talk of show trails and traitors.
Exactly, it is one law for them, another for those who respect the Leave vote
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
That’s the kind of talk that got Jo Cox murdered.
Funny, I've never noticed your admonitions about inflammatory language when your fellow remainers talk of show trails and traitors.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
But you are still a diehard remainer. Are you one of the diehard remainers who are loyal to the UK?
Yes as I respect the will of the British people rather than turning to Brussels to try and overturn it
So diehard remainers can also be loyal to the UK. Reassuring to know.
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
And how exactly will the WTO enforce such a border?
Any court case would drag on for years by which time, their bluff having been called, Dublin would have finally agreed arrangements with London.
Was there not a border at one point? I seem to recall PBers posting photos of the border and customs posts.
Customs posts were abolished with the establishment of the single market at the end of 1992. Security checkpoints/watchtowers started to be dismantled shortly after the 1994 IRA ceasefire and the process was completed in 2006.
I am appalled at my own ignorance in having to ask: is it an absolute given that a hard border leads immediately to a full-fat restitution of the Troubles? And why? And if not, surely the policing requirements for a brexit-caused hard border will be orders of magnitude less than those which obtained in the troubles?
I think it will be a focal point for dissident republican groups and in turn will provoke reprisals by unionist groups.
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
You're making up ifs rather than dealing with the world as it is. The WTO isn't telling us we need to have border checks and border posts. The WTO isn't saying we can't do checks away from the border.
But they might. It's a risk we can't take. I thought you were the one, when dealing with Treasury forecasts, who said that they should have forecast contingent actions.
Its a risk we can take. I have said I am prepared to accept risk.
We do as we please and argue the case as it stands.
If we win the case, then case closed.
If we lose the case then I suggest we proceed as we did with Hirst v United Kingdom (No 2) and ignore the ruling. Case closed.
So every leaver has proclaimed how we will thrive under WTO rules and one of our first acts might be to ignore WTO rules.
That post was one of the several reasons I wrote my header. We can't put up a border.
Oh we CAN put up a border, but we (the UK) do not want to face the fallout from such an action. As your post points out, the costs of "policing" will be substantial and the "Brexit Bonus" will have yet another large chunk taken out of it.
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
Let me get this straight:
A UK-wide referendum votes for us to leave the EU so we must all leave the EU including those parts which voted Remain such as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Newham?
In a GE, the constituencies which voted Labour don't get a Labour Government and the constituencies which voted Conservative don't get a Conservative Government, we all get the same Government.
Yet if the whole of Scotland votes to leave the UK, the areas which voted against have a right to ignore that result and secede?
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reason why an election is called.
People voted to leave because we are sick of being told by foreign countries what we can and cannot do with our own borders.
If our border checks with Ireland consist of two huts and an arthritic eighty year old night watchman with myopia, job done.
That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
I'm struggling to understand what the Irish are going to do to us if we stick up a border that consists of a myopic octagenarian and a very long bit of string. Invade? Put up a border of their own?
Call. Their. Bluff.
That post was one of the several reasons I wrote my header. We can't put up a border.
No we can't militarily enforce a border.
A border is already up. It already exists for alcohol duties, tobacco duties, corporation tax, VAT, income tax, national insurance and more.
There's much truth in the American saying "Good fences make good neighbors".
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
To prevent discrimination against Catholics was of course why troops were sent in to the Province in the first place.
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. s illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because Lib Dems FFS.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchies member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
Do you think Scotland should be partitioned too if some parts vote No?
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
So you also see a case for keeping Scotland in the EU customs union and single market?
Well that is the SNP claim ie Scotland voted Remain while the UK voted to Leave the EU but there is no evidence of a surge of support for independence due to Brexit, even now the SNP are polling below 2015 levels
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
On that basis I assume you are fine with Scotland and London remaining in the EU? Or are you just talking out of your hole?
Has Boris submitted his homework on solving the Irish border problem yet? Seriously though, these diplomat jollies are all very well, but quickly get forgotten when the bunting has been cleared away. The thirty days will fly by. I’m worried that we’ll soon be back to the looming No Deal horror show with the old line of ‘if we survived the blitz...’ back in play.
Polls indicate a majority would support unification over the return of a hard border, so arguably the moment No Deal becomes government policy it should trigger a border poll.
On no grounds whatsoever, every poll shows a majority of Unionists back even a hard border over reunification and the pre suspension First Minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland at Westminster is a Unionist.
In any case Boris has made clear there will be no hard border even with No Deal
People in Ireland don't trust the UK Government, especially Boris "why doesn't he have a name like Murphy" Johnson, which is why the backstop is so politically important. There's a lot of history behind that mistrust that the last 20 years of relatively good relations will not overcome
Nationalists never trust any British government, so what, I would happily give Catholic Nationalist counties of Northern Ireland back to the Republic and just keep the Protestant Unionist bits
Scotland is as Remain as Antrim and Down are Unionist. But I have seen you yourself say in this forum that Scotland voted as part of the UK. Antrim and Down are (in my view) an integral part of Ireland, Gerrymandered partition is illegitimate.
What has that got to do with anything? Islington and Oxford were more Remain than Scotland and the Brexit Party came second in Scotland in the European Parliament elections.
Antrim is also more Unionist thsn Scotland is Nationalist.
Antrim and Down are integral parts of the UK and always will be despite your anti British, hard left views
You are suggesting separating off a subdivision of one country because it agrees with you but not accepting the same for another n Ireland we cannot make the same mistake again and keep certain bits.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchies member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
Do you think Scotland should be partitioned too if some parts vote No?
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
There's also an old adage that people who are busy making money are too busy to make trouble. I would argue economic prosperity and capitalism were the key weapons in ending the Troubles as much as American Presidents and British Prime Ministers.
Most loyalist paramilitaries are working class not rich
I am sure as a Conservative you would encourage economic growth and capitalism to ensure all sectors of society benefit including the working class.
The objective of capitalism must be to improve the economic prospects of everyone, not just the rich, don't you agree?
Some local colour on the physical border: I recently spent a day riding a horse, for reasons we won't go into, on the Armagh/Monaghan border. No physical sign of any kind, but spookily your phone knows where you are and you get welcome to Eire/NI texts every 3 minutes.
I was told that if I had a fall, not to be surprised if they picked me up and carried me North for a field or two to ensure I was in NHS land and not liable for Eire hospital fees.
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
Let me get this straight:
A UK-wide referendum votes for us to leave the EU so we must all leave the EU including those parts which voted Remain such as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Newham?
In a GE, the constituencies which voted Labour don't get a Labour Government and the constituencies which voted Conservative don't get a Conservative Government, we all get the same Government.
Yet if the whole of Scotland votes to leave the UK, the areas which voted against have a right to ignore that result and secede?
If Scotland votes to secede from the UK to rejoin the EU because the UK voted to Leave the EU and Scotland voted Remain then the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway have a right to secede from Scotland and rejoin the UK if they voted No to independence and Scotland voted Yes, absolutely
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchist member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
You're a bit early to say "hundreds". Antrim and Down have been part of the UK for 198 years, less than 2 centuries. If NI decides to leave the UK it must follow as surely as Scotland and Remain parts of England must leave the EU - unless you are a total hypocrite of course.
Nice line by the way. Keep it up and you may develop a sense of humour.
Implement a trusted trader scheme off our own bat.
It’s up to the EU what the RoI does
Again, no it's not. If we have an open border for EU widgets we would need to have an open border for, say, US widgets. So either we have no tariffs for anything or we have a border
A *physical* border is not the same as zero tariff.
The vast bulk of trading is done by a small number of firms. Register them, have self declaration and spot checks
"The vast bulk of trading is done by a small number of firms" - that is absolute twaddle. There are dozens of farms that cross the border let alone the cross border communities that trade every day.
We would have to register Irish citizens and companies and, outside the EU and the data protections it offers, not to mention the fact that being put on a UK government database is hardly the most attractive thing to sell an Irish person whose historical trust in it is not great, that isn't going to happen.
It's worth repeating the key facts. Ireland can't afford a hard border, whether conceded through a lack of a backstop or through No Deal. Northern Ireland can afford it ten times less. Ireland won't willingly align itself with the UK outside of the Single Market, nor will the other Member states require it to. Which means the backstop will be the number one requirement for any deal of any kind with any of the countries that we share a continent with.
It's time to face those facts.
Please explain why, once we have left, the backstop makes logical sense
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
He was an Irish nationalist doing it to provoke
He put a flag in the window in a REPUBLICAN area. How could that be provoking anyone? You are unbelievable.
Some local colour on the physical border: I recently spent a day riding a horse, for reasons we won't go into, on the Armagh/Monaghan border. No physical sign of any kind, but spookily your phone knows where you are and you get welcome to Eire/NI texts every 3 minutes.
I was told that if I had a fall, not to be surprised if they picked me up and carried me North for a field or two to ensure I was in NHS land and not liable for Eire hospital fees.
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
On that basis I assume you are fine with Scotland and London remaining in the EU? Or are you just talking out of your hole?
There is no clear evidence yet Scotland prefers to Leave the UK to join the EU than stay in the UK and Leave the EU.
London does not have an independence party unlike Scotland
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
Let me get this straight:
A UK-wide referendum votes for us to leave the EU so we must all leave the EU including those parts which voted Remain such as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Newham?
In a GE, the constituencies which voted Labour don't get a Labour Government and the constituencies which voted Conservative don't get a Conservative Government, we all get the same Government.
Yet if the whole of Scotland votes to leave the UK, the areas which voted against have a right to ignore that result and secede?
If Scotland votes to secede from the UK to rejoin the EU because the UK voted to Leave the EU and Scotland voted Remain then the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway have a right to secede from Scotland and rejoin the UK if they voted No to independence and Scotland voted Yes, absolutely
Has London got a right to secede from the England? Kent?
In the early 70s I was living on an army base in Fallingbostal in Germany. My dad was serving with 42 Heavy Artillery. There were 3 other regiments on the base including a tank regiment, a light infantry unit with armored vehicles and a substantial REME section plus visiting commandos, special forces, helicopter squadrons etc. We had a proper army in those days.
Pretty much all the time I was there there was a regiment in Ulster, a regiment training for Ulster or a regiment just back. Security was high as IRA mortar units were active in Germany. Not far down the road from us the British army had built a model of an Ulster town to train in. The effort was simply massive, way bigger than anything done in Afghanistan. In one of the tours my dad's regiment was involved in 3 soldiers were killed in Derry in 2 separate incidents including the father of someone I knew at school. We were taken out of primary school to throw stones at soldiers training for Belfast. It was as close to a war time experience as I have ever known (thank god).
I agree that it is inconceivable that our modern army could manage anything similar. Its just too small.
In those days there was a big shake out of the army too. The regiment my dad was attached to had a lot of officers whose primary concern was their polo ponies. They found creeping around the streets of Derry or Belfast with a rifle (an officer's pistol making you a prime target) not to their liking. The army got a whole lot more professional in those days and I think that there is an argument that the Falklands was won as a result. Acting as a police force amongst a hostile community is seriously tough and dangerous for those not alert to it. The Afghan veterans would probably be fine but are there enough to go around?
Modern tech would help a lot. Intelligence is vastly more sophisticated than it was back then. But we not only don't want to go back, we couldn't without an almost inconceivable effort.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
To prevent discrimination against Catholics was of course why troops were sent in to the Province in the first place.
It was 50 years ago last week that the troops went in, but the welcome was not for long. I recommend this recent programme on the subject:
Implement a trusted trader scheme off our own bat.
It’s up to the EU what the RoI does
Again, no it's not. If we have an open border for EU widgets we would need to have an open border for, say, US widgets. So either we have no tariffs for anything or we have a border
Implement a trusted trader scheme off our own bat.
It’s up to the EU what the RoI does
Again, no it's not. If we have an open border for EU widgets we would need to have an open border for, say, US widgets. So either we have no tariffs for anything or we have a border
The problem with leaving the EU is not the tariffs- its the non tariff barriers and product definitions. In the examples you give goods must comply with the precise definitions of either EU or US legislation. That's kind of the whole point of the single market. Even if we could reset our systems to the US overnight, the paperwork will be insane. Also we have zero say in the product definitions. Boris flouncing out from the EU means we lose the existing EU product definitions and certifications on November 1st.
For comparison the Canadian CETA took 7 years to sort out and is still not full ratified. The critical problem for the UK is that the Hard Brexiteers will not accept ECJ disputes resolution procedures and setting up bespoke systems cannot be done quickly, so Canada+ or Norway- are equally unattainable. May's deal was a messy and very flawed compromise, but literally the only thing that can allow an exit from the EU and/or the single market without a major economic crisis.
So bluntly, Johnson has to do a deal. If he does not then he clearly risks the Troubles part 2- and this time he loses. So Tories: a united Ireland and a divided Great Britain, and an economic slump that will last for years.
If that *is* what you voted for then you are worse than fools.
If you are proved wrong will you come on here to admit the fact?
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
So how can you bear to live in this country under an oligarchy which you get to keep, or swap for another oligarchy, every five years? It's called a democracy of course but so are Russia, Congo and N Korea. If you want brexit to happen and a plebiscite which should never have been held happened to go in your favour, bully for you, but enough already with the misty eyed Did Magna Carta die in vain bollocks.
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
You're making up ifs rather than dealing with the world as it is. The WTO isn't telling us we need to have border checks and border posts. The WTO isn't saying we can't do checks away from the border.
But they might. It's a risk we can't take. I thought you were the one, when dealing with Treasury forecasts, who said that they should have forecast contingent actions.
Its a risk we can take. I have said I am prepared to accept risk.
We do as we please and argue the case as it stands.
If we win the case, then case closed.
If we lose the case then I suggest we proceed as we did with Hirst v United Kingdom (No 2) and ignore the ruling. Case closed.
So every leaver has proclaimed how we will thrive under WTO rules and one of our first acts might be to ignore WTO rules.
Maybe yes.
Other WTO members already do it. There are WTO disputes as old as the WTO itself. We already do it with the ECHR which is far more serious as far as disputes are concerned than the WTO is. Its part of being as you said a sovereign country making sovereign choices.
I sovereignly choose to value peace in NI above enforcing its border. Force choice, if leaving without a deal can't for whatever reason happen which would you prioritise?
Would you prioritise enforcement of the border, or peace? Would you disagree with me on the next steps after a no deal Brexit or would you send in the troops?
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
On that basis I assume you are fine with Scotland and London remaining in the EU? Or are you just talking out of your hole?
There is no clear evidence yet Scotland prefers to Leave the UK to join the EU than stay in the UK and Leave the EU.
London does not have an independence party unlike Scotland
Does Dumfries and Galloway have an independence from Scotland party? Look at what partition has done to Ireland, then think twice before casually discussing partitioning my homeland from whatever grim corner of the home counties you are holed up in. English people really need to get some self awareness before taking this kind of crap about carving up other people’s countries.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
He was an Irish nationalist doing it to provoke
He put a flag in the window in a REPUBLICAN area. How could that be provoking anyone? You are unbelievable.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchist member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
You're a bit early to say "hundreds". Antrim and Down have been part of the UK for 198 years, less than 2 centuries. If NI decides to leave the UK it must follow as surely as Scotland and Remain parts of England must leave the EU - unless you are a total hypocrite of course.
Nice line by the way. Keep it up and you may develop a sense of humour.
The Act of Union with Ireland was in 1800 over 200 years ago and Antrim and Down were part of the British crown before that too.
Nationalists in Remain voting Northern Ireland and Scotland are trying to secede from the Leave voting UK to rejoin the EU so of course Unionists in Unionist voting parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland could vote to secede from an enlarged Republic of Ireland and an independent Scotland and rejoin the UK if those votes went that way
The "solution" is staring at us. NI should stay in the CU and SM because it has a physical border with the EU. Additionally, morally it is also not a problem since they voted to Remain, i.e they support CU and SM. Indeed this was originally part of the draft WA until Arlene Foster and her gang started to throw the toys out of the pram. So the reason we have this stalemate is because the ERG and the DUP have the balancing numbers. Frankly, the ERG cares more about an [English] Brexit than integrity of NI. Any change of government which results in the DUP not having blackmail rights will solve the problem. Of course, what I'd like is simply to REMAIN.
Remainers here were arguing that the removal of the backstop was never going to be contemplated. Now they're arguing that it's impractical and unworkable to remove it. A sign of the debate moving significantly. I'm excited for what will come next.
Remainers here were arguing that the removal of the backstop was never going to be contemplated. Now they're arguing that it's impractical and unworkable to remove it. A sign of the debate moving significantly. I'm excited for what will come next.
At the very least Boris can get away with, remove backstop completely, if we can’t negotiate future arrangement by end of transition, temporary extension of transition.
We will be so far down to leaving by then hardliners will be mopped up.
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
On that basis I assume you are fine with Scotland and London remaining in the EU? Or are you just talking out of your hole?
There is no clear evidence yet Scotland prefers to Leave the UK to join the EU than stay in the UK and Leave the EU.
London does not have an independence party unlike Scotland
Does Dumfries and Galloway have an independence from Scotland party? Look at what partition has done to Ireland, then think twice before casually discussing partitioning my homeland from whatever grim corner of the home counties you are holed up in. English people really need to get some self awareness before taking this kind of crap about carving up other people’s countries.
It likely would do very soon if it voted strongly No to leaving the UK and Scotland voted Yes.
As far as I am concerned my country is the UK and you want to carve up my country so don't complain if I even discuss carving up what you think of as yours
Remainers here were arguing that the removal of the backstop was never going to be contemplated. Now they're arguing that it's impractical and unworkable to remove it. A sign of the debate moving significantly. I'm excited for what will come next.
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reason why an election is called.
People voted to leave because we are sick of being told by foreign countries what we can and cannot do with our own borders.
If our border checks with Ireland consist of two huts and an arthritic eighty year old night watchman with myopia, job done.
That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
That's fine, the Irish feel quite rightly they don't want to be told what to do by us. Well the feeling is mutual, we don't want to be told what to do by the EU.
Why should our freedom be subordinate to Ireland's? Why shouldn't we be equally free?
I accept crimes have occured and I accept crimes will occur in the future. I am talking about what is lawful not what is criminal.
The backstop does not make us unfree because, in reality, we can leave it as easily as we like. You don't accept that I know. It's flawed but then humanity is flawed. The EU isn't sending an army over to ensure compliance. If it were you might have a point - as it is we are a nuclear armed country that can walk away from any arrangement with Europe whenever we like however we like. Ireland does not have that luxury.
My Oxford entrance exam, the high point of my academic career given it went rapidly downhill thereafter, was answering the question "What Constitutes a State?". In a nutshell I said a 'state' was any piece of land you could successfully defend from potential aggressors. It got me, wholly undeservedly, into Oxford. But it is true. So long as we can successfully defend ourselves we can walk from the backstop/EU when we like - always could.
Would Luxembourg, Leichtenstein, Andorra or Monaco pass your definition of being a State?
The "solution" is staring at us. NI should stay in the CU and SM because it has a physical border with the EU. Additionally, morally it is also not a problem since they voted to Remain, i.e they support CU and SM. Indeed this was originally part of the draft WA until Arlene Foster and her gang started to throw the toys out of the pram. So the reason we have this stalemate is because the ERG and the DUP have the balancing numbers. Frankly, the ERG cares more about an [English] Brexit than integrity of NI. Any change of government which results in the DUP not having blackmail rights will solve the problem. Of course, what I'd like is simply to REMAIN.
Just because you don't like the DUP doesn't mean they don't have a point.
If NI unionists don't want to be in the SM and CU then they shouldn't have to be. We voted for whether the United Kingdom should leave not part of it.
If NI stays then Arlene Foster should sit on the European Council with full veto rights - see how long it is before they throw NI out then!
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
Every defeat of Brexit is a victory for all of us.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
So how can you bear to live in this country under an oligarchy which you get to keep, or swap for another oligarchy, every five years? It's called a democracy of course but so are Russia, Congo and N Korea. If you want brexit to happen and a plebiscite which should never have been held happened to go in your favour, bully for you, but enough already with the misty eyed Did Magna Carta die in vain bollocks.
"a plebiscite which should never have been held"
Your democratic credentials have been noted.
You make my point for me. If plebiscites of this sort are the dogs bollocks to you why do you not rage against the fact that there have been precisely three of them, two of those on the same issue, in your presumably 50 odd years as a voter? You live quite happily under an elected oligarchy.
Who said this to whom, when?
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
Has Boris submitted his homework on solving the Irish border problem yet? Seriously though, these diplomat jollies are all very well, but quickly get forgotten when the bunting has been cleared away. The thirty days will fly by. I’m worried that we’ll soon be back to the looming No Deal horror show with the old line of ‘if we survived the blitz...’ back in play.
No this won’t be easily forgotten. Boris has been a car crash on these diplomatic missions.
Boris has looked awkward and gauche, not statesmanlike at all. Trumpesque mocking of Merkel with his premeditated “Wir schaffen das” jibe. And then accepting the insane 30day challenge with bumbling oomph leaving Malcolm Tucker back in downing street sounding off at the screen and banging his head on the table whilst chanting further expletives about the lack of operating sponge between his bosses ears. Meanwhile the Borisgraph and other media go loopy about what a triumph this business has been, giving it a real go, proper negotiation already achieving real rewards. The Express even told readers Merkel laughed along at the belittlement of her - yes, they really do have to spin that far from reality to find a sweet spot! However Whilst The lizard from the mail was on Sky last night spinning the triumphalist line, seemed to me, though spinning the spin, not telling it with his eyes or his demeanour…
The Borisgraph and Express likely happy to die like spartans over Brexit, but I wonder if The Mail and The Sun will regret their backing of No Deal when it really starts to bite their readers.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
Every defeat of Brexit is a victory for all of us.
Where "us" is the undemocratic Remainer minority.
I think you’ll find that Remain is the majority now.
Antrim and Down hsve been part of the UK for hundreds of years and ate the counties closest to GB, if they wish to stay part of the UK they must do so.
Being a monarchist member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
You're a bit early to say "hundreds". Antrim and Down have been part of the UK for 198 years, less than 2 centuries. If NI decides to leave the UK it must follow as surely as Scotland and Remain parts of England must leave the EU - unless you are a total hypocrite of course.
Nice line by the way. Keep it up and you may develop a sense of humour.
The Act of Union with Ireland was in 1810 and Antrim and Down were part of the British crown before that too.
Nationalists in Remain voting Northern Ireland and Scotland are trying to secede from the Leave voting UK to stay in the EU so of course Unionists in Unionist voting parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland could vote to secede from an enlarged Republic of Ireland and an independent Scotland and rejoin the UK if those votes went that way
Your ignorance is astounding. The Act of Union passed in 1800 and came into force on 1 January 1801
Until the first half of the 17th century that area of Ireland led the resistance to the Crown before the Plantation removed its native population - and even them most of the settlers were Scots. It is hardly bound to the UK as fastly as you suggest.
Antrim and Down have not existed as local government units since 1972 anyway.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
Every defeat of Brexit is a victory for all of us.
Where "us" is the undemocratic Remainer minority.
I think you’ll find that Remain is the majority now.
According to which plebiscite?
Surely you're not taking an opinion poll as gospel truth? Are you HYUFD in disguise?
Remainers here were arguing that the removal of the backstop was never going to be contemplated. Now they're arguing that it's impractical and unworkable to remove it. A sign of the debate moving significantly. I'm excited for what will come next.
And what moved it significantly? I think Boris is so bad at this element of the job he is making Corbyn look statesmanlike. Someone’ll promptly post some approval rating to say I’m wrong, but that’s merely a measure of which is the least hated, not a scientific evaluation of the right temperament of a stateman. As a statesman Boris is weak, he is not melancholic or sanguine enough. Never will be.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
Every defeat of Brexit is a victory for all of us.
Where "us" is the undemocratic Remainer minority.
I think you’ll find that Remain is the majority now.
According to which plebiscite?
Surely you're not taking an opinion poll as gospel truth? Are you HYUFD in disguise?
Remainers here were arguing that the removal of the backstop was never going to be contemplated. Now they're arguing that it's impractical and unworkable to remove it. A sign of the debate moving significantly. I'm excited for what will come next.
And what moved it significantly? I think Boris is so bad at this element of the job he is making Corbyn look statesmanlike. Someone’ll promptly post some approval rating to say I’m wrong, but that’s merely a measure of which is the least hated, not a scientific evaluation of the right temperament of a stateman. As a statesman Boris is weak, he is not melancholic or sanguine enough. Never will be.
Macron makes Boris look like the child that he is.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What PR war?
We had a good relationship with Ireland and a great compromise and we decided to throw it all away for no benefit.
Our fault. Our responsibility.
Symptom of delusions of grandeur.
Correction, we had a good relationship with the Republic before Varadkar decided to refuse any compromise with the UK on a technical solution due to the threat of Sinn Fein in the Dail and insisted on an Irish sea border.
Varadkar's fault, Varadkar's responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Dangerous, dangerous talk. Pathetic.
The truth hurts, I know
Every defeat of Brexit is a victory for all of us.
Where "us" is the undemocratic Remainer minority.
I think you’ll find that Remain is the majority now.
According to which plebiscite?
Surely you're not taking an opinion poll as gospel truth? Are you HYUFD in disguise?
As someone who lives three miles from the border the level of ignorance and scaremongering over the issue is breathtaking. The threat of a hard border is nonsense since with nearly 300 crossings it would be unenforceable even if the will was there from either side. Dublin's position is a bluff to keep the UK in the customs union or better still in the EU altogether, and May fell for it.
Has Nancy Pelosi actually read the GFA? It says nothing about customs or border arrangements, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that Brexit does not violate it.
Invoking the threat of violence is also pretty low and dishonest. Cancelling Brexit tomorrow won't make a blind bit of difference to dissident republicans who will continue to try and kill police officers regardless as they have always done.
Indeed they have. And the unenforceability of the border was my point. Problem is that if the WTO tells us we need to have border checks we will need to have border checks. And yes at all the BCPs. But as you say we can't do that so where does that leave us? Without a hard border. And in order not to have a hard border we will need some other kind of arrangement. A withdrawal agreement perhaps.
You're making up ifs rather than dealing with the world as it is. The WTO isn't telling us we need to have border checks and border posts. The WTO isn't saying we can't do checks away from the border.
But they might. It's a risk we can't take. I thought you were the one, when dealing with Treasury forecasts, who said that they should have forecast contingent actions.
Its a risk we can take. I have said I am prepared to accept risk.
We do as we please and argue the case as it stands.
If we win the case, then case closed.
If we lose the case then I suggest we proceed as we did with Hirst v United Kingdom (No 2) and ignore the ruling. Case closed.
Sure, we could mark our departure from the EU by refusing to abide by our WTO commitments. That does seem to not be the most trustworthy act of a country desperate for a rules based trade policy with the rest of the world. Certainly the WTO is a creaky organisation that countries such as Trumpland are undermining, but that way leads to trade anarchy. The sort of trade anarchy that happened in the 1930s.
I suspect that the best pressure point for the EU to ensure that we apply WTO rules would be at Dover and the channel ports. This too could be done away from the border by requiring pre-authorisation at the Kent Lorry park before embarkation. This could be done by LeClerc between 1200 and 1300 every Monday...
There simply cannot be a return to a policed border in Ireland. I think everyone who is serious recognizes that.
What this does mean however - it seems to me - is that it is very difficult for us to both leave the EU in a meaningful way and at the same time keep the UK under the same regulatory regime.
Such a pity this crucial issue received so little attention during the 2016 referendum.
There simply cannot be a return to a policed border in Ireland. I think everyone who is serious recognizes that.
What this does mean however - it seems to me - is that it is very difficult for us to both leave the EU in a meaningful way and at the same time keep the UK under the same regulatory regime.
Such a pity this crucial issue received so little attention during the 2016 referendum.
Even if it was brought up it would just have been brushed off as project fear. Just like it is now.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
He was an Irish nationalist doing it to provoke
He put a flag in the window in a REPUBLICAN area. How could that be provoking anyone? You are unbelievable.
Potentially yes, I certainly think there would be a case for keeping the Scottish borders in the UK if they voted No and Scotland as a whole voted Yes to independence
On that basis I assume you are fine with Scotland and London remaining in the EU? Or are you just talking out of your hole?
There is no clear evidence yet Scotland prefers to Leave the UK to join the EU than stay in the UK and Leave the EU.
London does not have an independence party unlike Scotland
Does Dumfries and Galloway have an independence from Scotland party? Look at what partition has done to Ireland, then think twice before casually discussing partitioning my homeland from whatever grim corner of the home counties you are holed up in. English people really need to get some self awareness before taking this kind of crap about carving up other people’s countries.
It likely would do very soon if it voted strongly No to leaving the UK and Scotland voted Yes.
As far as I am concerned my country is the UK and you want to carve up my country so don't complain if I even discuss carving up what you think of as yours
I am a European so you have already carved that up. The UK isn't a country, it is a state. I’m not a Scot Nat but taking Scotland out of the EU against its will is an unforgivable insult to Scotland and has sadly convinced me that the UK is an abusive relationship as far as Scotland is concerned. Hearing you discuss giving off bits of Scotland only amplifies that message.
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
He was an Irish nationalist doing it to provoke
He put a flag in the window in a REPUBLICAN area. How could that be provoking anyone? You are unbelievable.
I have no idea why remainers seem to think Ireland is their trump card.
"You can't leave the EU, the Irish won't let us" is bound to return a stonking majority for No Deal if that is the reaso That runs two ways. The Irish see the backstop as necessary because they have a far greater history than us of being told what to do by an overseas power. They are not going to abandon it so we have a choice to make. If you think No Deal is no problem then good luck to you.
That's fine, the Irish feel quite rightly they don't want to be told what to do by us. Well the feeling is mutual, we don't want to be told what to do by the EU.
Why should our freedom be subordinate to Ireland's? Why shouldn't we be equally free?
I accept crimes have occured and I accept crimes will occur in the future. I am talking about what is lawful not what is criminal.
The backstop does not make us unfree because, in reality, we can leave it as easily as we like. You don't accept that I know. It's flawed but then humanity is flawed. The EU isn't sending an army over to ensure compliance. If it were you might have a point - as it is we are a nuclear armed country that can walk away from any arrangement with Europe whenever we like however we like. Ireland does not have that luxury.
My Oxford entrance exam, the high point of my academic career given it went rapidly downhill thereafter, was answering the question "What Constitutes a State?". In a nutshell I said a 'state' was any piece of land you could successfully defend from potential aggressors. It got me, wholly undeservedly, into Oxford. But it is true. So long as we can successfully defend ourselves we can walk from the backstop/EU when we like - always could.
Would Luxembourg, Leichtenstein, Andorra or Monaco pass your definition of being a State?
I think I said in the essay that some states exist because it was not in the interest of their neighbours to squash their self-governance - but if push came to shove if Switzerland and Austria jointly decided to impose a law on Liechtenstein they would have to acquiesce - indeed they sometimes do (Lichtenstein is in a customs union with the Swiss I believe). I also said there were exceptions like the PLO and the Order of St John.
Andorra is an odd case as its co-heads of state are the French President and the local Spanish Catholic Bishop.
The Irish will have to put up a border and it will be entirely our fault. There is no washing our hands of blame here, no matter what the childish Brexiteerrs, who refuse to take responsibility for anything, might think.
We will not put up a border, if the Republic does then Boris wins the PR war with Varadkar
What grandeur.
responsibility
You might not have noticed but to some EU lovers everything is the fault of the UK or Brexit.
To some Diehard Remainers their loyalty is to Brussels not the UK, we know that
Hold on. You are a diehard remainer. To whom is your loyalty?
Democracy
So how can you bear to live in this country under an oligarchy which you get to keep, or swap for another oligarchy, every five years? It's called a democracy of course but so are Russia, Congo and N Korea. If you want brexit to happen and a plebiscite which should never have been held happened to go in your favour, bully for you, but enough already with the misty eyed Did Magna Carta die in vain bollocks.
"a plebiscite which should never have been held"
Your democratic credentials have been noted.
And my credentials! The direct democracy in or out plebiscite should never have been held on a matter of sovereignty.
The leave mentality is sovereignty something unwisely gave away, and now rightly taking back where it belongs.
The remain mentality Sovereignty operates like a currency, you have 100 quid in the bank, put 20 quid to work to your advantage.
Sovereignty isn’t like something you have, give away, and get back again after a vote to repatriate it. Sovereignty operates like a currency, you have 100 quid in the bank, put 20 quid to work to your advantage. Such as membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP. Removal of trade barriers and greater trade efficiency’s to 44% of all UK exports.
For some people it’s 0% of sovereignty to be pooled. For the vast majority it’s some, maybe stick at 20%, down to 5% or 10% for soft brexit or Norway, others to sign up to Euro and further integration. How to find the sweet spot for that from one leave remain vote?
To decide this sort of direction it should be manifestos in GE’s, and representative democracy to fine tune the details.
Has Boris submitted his homework on solving the Irish border problem yet? Seriously though, these diplomat jollies are all very well, but quickly get forgotten when the bunting has been cleared away. The thirty days will fly by. I’m worried that we’ll soon be back to the looming No Deal horror show with the old line of ‘if we survived the blitz...’ back in play.
No this won’t be easily forgotten. Boris has been a car crash on these diplomatic missions.
Boris has looked awkward and gauche, not statesmanlike at all. Trumpesque mocking of Merkel with his premeditated “Wir schaffen das” jibe. And then accepting the insane 30day challenge with bumbling oomph leaving Malcolm Tucker back in downing street sounding off at the screen and banging his head on the table whilst chanting further expletives about the lack of operating sponge between his bosses ears. Meanwhile the Borisgraph and other media go loopy about what a triumph this business has been, giving it a real go, proper negotiation already achieving real rewards. The Express even told readers Merkel laughed along at the belittlement of her - yes, they really do have to spin that far from reality to find a sweet spot! However Whilst The lizard from the mail was on Sky last night spinning the triumphalist line, seemed to me, though spinning the spin, not telling it with his eyes or his demeanour…
The Borisgraph and Express likely happy to die like spartans over Brexit, but I wonder if The Mail and The Sun will regret their backing of No Deal when it really starts to bite their readers.
This really is deeply bizarre. Our PM may or may not succeed in his efforts to repair the damage done by his predecessor but this kind of hysterical nonsense borders on the disturbed. Why are you so determined that your own country should fail and be humiliated?
There simply cannot be a return to a policed border in Ireland. I think everyone who is serious recognizes that.
What this does mean however - it seems to me - is that it is very difficult for us to both leave the EU in a meaningful way and at the same time keep the UK under the same regulatory regime.
Such a pity this crucial issue received so little attention during the 2016 referendum.
Rubbish. No deal ( which I do not favour) perfectly squares your circle. We would’ve left very meaningfully (!) and kept the U.K. under the same regulatory regime.
Sure WTO terms, and Varadkar is left with a problem telling his masters in Brussels what he’s doing about policing the single market, but that doesn’t make leaving impossible for us.
Sure, we could mark our departure from the EU by refusing to abide by our WTO commitments. That does seem to not be the most trustworthy act of a country desperate for a rules based trade policy with the rest of the world. Certainly the WTO is a creaky organisation that countries such as Trumpland are undermining, but that way leads to trade anarchy. The sort of trade anarchy that happened in the 1930s.
I suspect that the best pressure point for the EU to ensure that we apply WTO rules would be at Dover and the channel ports. This too could be done away from the border by requiring pre-authorisation at the Kent Lorry park before embarkation. This could be done by LeClerc between 1200 and 1300 every Monday...
So you reckon the EU is going to pressure us to enforce a hard border in Ireland?
Its a view.
And no I don't suggest we refuse to abide our WTO commitments, I suggest we abide by our WTO commitments and our GFA commitments concurrently be abiding by WTO as best as we can while simultaneously abiding by GFA which is to do so away from the border.
If hypothetically the WTO rules we can't do that [and that is purely hypothetical] then we cross that bridge when we get there. But the GFA remains my #1 priority once we are out. I don't see how that is unreasonable?
They existed as a response to the IRA but whatever the reasons for their existence if Protestant Ulster is threatened loyalist paramilitaries will arise again to defend their communities!
Would you describe 'loyalist paramilitaries' as terrorists?
On some definitions yes but whatever defines them they existed and will rise again if threatened
They were not the ones being threatened. Some date the start of the Troubles to the 1964 General ELection when an an Irish nationalist candidate displayed an Irish tricolour from the window of his office in a republican area of Belfast - which was illegal in NI at the time. Ian Paisley said that if he did not remove the tricolour he would lead a march to the office and take it down himself. In response, armed officers arrived at the building, smashed their way inside and took the flag. Over two dozen people had to be hospitalised as a result of the subsequent rioting.
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
To prevent discrimination against Catholics was of course why troops were sent in to the Province in the first place.
Discrimination is a bit mild. A systematic campaign of terror arson more like.
Comments
If a compromise is something that can't be given it is not a compromise and both parties have failed to reach a compromise.
Hard-left? I'm a monarchist member of the Lib Dems FFS.
Call. Their. Bluff.
You were suggesting there were crimes in the past. I know there were crimes in the past. I don't see to justify or excuse crimes. Crime happens and we try to prevent it, but I don't think we can ever prevent it 100%.
Of course I would!
Terry the terrorist didn't give a feck that then either.
A border is already up. It already exists for alcohol duties, tobacco duties, corporation tax, VAT, income tax, national insurance and more.
Being a monarchist member of the LDs makes you a woke Meghan Markle fan nothing more
This is a Dane who'd like Denmark to sell Greenland to the US for geopolitical reasons, and who think the Greenlandish (?) inhabitants would be pleased if that happened.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-denmark-should-sell-greenland-to-donald-trump/
and Robert Tombs is concerned that BoJo shows signs of continuity May in his letter to the Tusker.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/the-good-bad-and-ugly-of-boris-johnsons-brexit-letter-to-the-eu/
The nationalist community could not even fly a flag in a window without threats from the intellectual leader of loyalism and you say the loyalists were the ones "defending" their communities? Read a book.
We do as we please and argue the case as it stands.
If we win the case, then case closed.
If we lose the case then I suggest we proceed as we did with Hirst v United Kingdom (No 2) and ignore the ruling. Case closed.
Any court case would drag on for years by which time, their bluff having been called, Dublin would have finally agreed arrangements with London. Customs posts were abolished with the establishment of the single market at the end of 1992. Security checkpoints/watchtowers started to be dismantled shortly after the 1994 IRA ceasefire and the process was completed in 2006.
Not that the Leavers care...
A UK-wide referendum votes for us to leave the EU so we must all leave the EU including those parts which voted Remain such as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Newham?
In a GE, the constituencies which voted Labour don't get a Labour Government and the constituencies which voted Conservative don't get a Conservative Government, we all get the same Government.
Yet if the whole of Scotland votes to leave the UK, the areas which voted against have a right to ignore that result and secede?
The objective of capitalism must be to improve the economic prospects of everyone, not just the rich, don't you agree?
I was told that if I had a fall, not to be surprised if they picked me up and carried me North for a field or two to ensure I was in NHS land and not liable for Eire hospital fees.
Nice line by the way. Keep it up and you may develop a sense of humour.
London does not have an independence party unlike Scotland
Pretty much all the time I was there there was a regiment in Ulster, a regiment training for Ulster or a regiment just back. Security was high as IRA mortar units were active in Germany. Not far down the road from us the British army had built a model of an Ulster town to train in. The effort was simply massive, way bigger than anything done in Afghanistan. In one of the tours my dad's regiment was involved in 3 soldiers were killed in Derry in 2 separate incidents including the father of someone I knew at school. We were taken out of primary school to throw stones at soldiers training for Belfast. It was as close to a war time experience as I have ever known (thank god).
I agree that it is inconceivable that our modern army could manage anything similar. Its just too small.
In those days there was a big shake out of the army too. The regiment my dad was attached to had a lot of officers whose primary concern was their polo ponies. They found creeping around the streets of Derry or Belfast with a rifle (an officer's pistol making you a prime target) not to their liking. The army got a whole lot more professional in those days and I think that there is an argument that the Falklands was won as a result. Acting as a police force amongst a hostile community is seriously tough and dangerous for those not alert to it. The Afghan veterans would probably be fine but are there enough to go around?
Modern tech would help a lot. Intelligence is vastly more sophisticated than it was back then. But we not only don't want to go back, we couldn't without an almost inconceivable effort.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1161880331735240704?s=19
Your democratic credentials have been noted.
Other WTO members already do it. There are WTO disputes as old as the WTO itself. We already do it with the ECHR which is far more serious as far as disputes are concerned than the WTO is. Its part of being as you said a sovereign country making sovereign choices.
I sovereignly choose to value peace in NI above enforcing its border. Force choice, if leaving without a deal can't for whatever reason happen which would you prioritise?
Would you prioritise enforcement of the border, or peace? Would you disagree with me on the next steps after a no deal Brexit or would you send in the troops?
Look at what partition has done to Ireland, then think twice before casually discussing partitioning my homeland from whatever grim corner of the home counties you are holed up in. English people really need to get some self awareness before taking this kind of crap about carving up other people’s countries.
Nationalists in Remain voting Northern Ireland and Scotland are trying to secede from the Leave voting UK to rejoin the EU so of course Unionists in Unionist voting parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland could vote to secede from an enlarged Republic of Ireland and an independent Scotland and rejoin the UK if those votes went that way
Indeed this was originally part of the draft WA until Arlene Foster and her gang started to throw the toys out of the pram.
So the reason we have this stalemate is because the ERG and the DUP have the balancing numbers. Frankly, the ERG cares more about an [English] Brexit than integrity of NI.
Any change of government which results in the DUP not having blackmail rights will solve the problem.
Of course, what I'd like is simply to REMAIN.
We will be so far down to leaving by then hardliners will be mopped up.
As far as I am concerned my country is the UK and you want to carve up my country so don't complain if I even discuss carving up what you think of as yours
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8350657/brexit-eu-angela-merkel-theresa-may-pm/
If NI unionists don't want to be in the SM and CU then they shouldn't have to be. We voted for whether the United Kingdom should leave not part of it.
If NI stays then Arlene Foster should sit on the European Council with full veto rights - see how long it is before they throw NI out then!
Who said this to whom, when?
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
No this won’t be easily forgotten. Boris has been a car crash on these diplomatic missions.
Boris has looked awkward and gauche, not statesmanlike at all. Trumpesque mocking of Merkel with his premeditated “Wir schaffen das” jibe. And then accepting the insane 30day challenge with bumbling oomph leaving Malcolm Tucker back in downing street sounding off at the screen and banging his head on the table whilst chanting further expletives about the lack of operating sponge between his bosses ears. Meanwhile the Borisgraph and other media go loopy about what a triumph this business has been, giving it a real go, proper negotiation already achieving real rewards. The Express even told readers Merkel laughed along at the belittlement of her - yes, they really do have to spin that far from reality to find a sweet spot! However Whilst The lizard from the mail was on Sky last night spinning the triumphalist line, seemed to me, though spinning the spin, not telling it with his eyes or his demeanour…
The Borisgraph and Express likely happy to die like spartans over Brexit, but I wonder if The Mail and The Sun will regret their backing of No Deal when it really starts to bite their readers.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aip/Geo3/40/38/contents
Until the first half of the 17th century that area of Ireland led the resistance to the Crown before the Plantation removed its native population - and even them most of the settlers were Scots. It is hardly bound to the UK as fastly as you suggest.
Antrim and Down have not existed as local government units since 1972 anyway.
Surely you're not taking an opinion poll as gospel truth? Are you HYUFD in disguise?
And what moved it significantly? I think Boris is so bad at this element of the job he is making Corbyn look statesmanlike. Someone’ll promptly post some approval rating to say I’m wrong, but that’s merely a measure of which is the least hated, not a scientific evaluation of the right temperament of a stateman. As a statesman Boris is weak, he is not melancholic or sanguine enough. Never will be.
I suspect that the best pressure point for the EU to ensure that we apply WTO rules would be at Dover and the channel ports. This too could be done away from the border by requiring pre-authorisation at the Kent Lorry park before embarkation. This could be done by LeClerc between 1200 and 1300 every Monday...
What this does mean however - it seems to me - is that it is very difficult for us to both leave the EU in a meaningful way and at the same time keep the UK under the same regulatory regime.
Such a pity this crucial issue received so little attention during the 2016 referendum.
https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1164643717170585604
The leave mentality is sovereignty something unwisely gave away, and now rightly taking back where it belongs.
The remain mentality Sovereignty operates like a currency, you have 100 quid in the bank, put 20 quid to work to your advantage.
Sovereignty isn’t like something you have, give away, and get back again after a vote to repatriate it. Sovereignty operates like a currency, you have 100 quid in the bank, put 20 quid to work to your advantage. Such as membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP. Removal of trade barriers and greater trade efficiency’s to 44% of all UK exports.
For some people it’s 0% of sovereignty to be pooled. For the vast majority it’s some, maybe stick at 20%, down to 5% or 10% for soft brexit or Norway, others to sign up to Euro and further integration. How to find the sweet spot for that from one leave remain vote?
To decide this sort of direction it should be manifestos in GE’s, and representative democracy to fine tune the details.
Sure WTO terms, and Varadkar is left with a problem telling his masters in Brussels what he’s doing about policing the single market, but that doesn’t make leaving impossible for us.
Its a view.
And no I don't suggest we refuse to abide our WTO commitments, I suggest we abide by our WTO commitments and our GFA commitments concurrently be abiding by WTO as best as we can while simultaneously abiding by GFA which is to do so away from the border.
If hypothetically the WTO rules we can't do that [and that is purely hypothetical] then we cross that bridge when we get there. But the GFA remains my #1 priority once we are out. I don't see how that is unreasonable?
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1164648911254052873?s=21