A wild stab at explaining it...Labour has given up on SLAB, concluding they are useless. No prospect of gains. Serious prospect of losing MPs. tab.
Astute.
The signs are modest, but they are there: Labour is moving slowly but steadily away from the rampant British nationalism of Better Together and towards adopting a pretty-much neutral position on Scottish independence. Folk like Ian Murray know it and are incandescent.
It is even a trend (even more modest) within Lib Dem circles.
Better Together is now recognised as a Tory plot, and a huge elephant trap into which Miliband and Clegg allowed their weak/daft Scottish branches to be lured into. The error will not be repeated. British nationalism is alive and well within Tory hearts, but Labour have lost the appetite for it.
I suspect the travails of Labour’s sister-party in Madrid, vis a vis Catalonia has alerted wiser heads. Madrid has dug itself into a hole and it is going to be one hell of a job getting out of it. Not dissimilar to the vindictive partition of Ireland and subsequent periods of Direct Rule, which is still haunting English politics a century later. An error of huge and then-unforeseen importance.
SLab, or parts of SLab, can kick and scream all it likes, but with 40% of its supporters backing independence it’ll have to dial down the Union Jackery one way or another.
Yet with 60% of Slab supporters still backing the Union it cannot abandon the Union Jack either or Davidson and Swinson will pounce
The comment made to me at the time was Better Together is where Labour stalwarts taught Tories how to fight an election and win, something they had long since forgotten. There was undoubtedly some truth in that but describing it as a "Tory plot" or an "elephant trap" is a bit silly.
The nasties took advantage of the dumb Labour party, who were easily taken in fuelled by their hatred of the SNP. They are reaping their just rewards.
Given the situation in Ireland in the early 20th Century, and the height at which passions, especially in the Protestant community were running, it's perhaps understandable, though. That 'it' was allowed to get to that state is a very severe criticism of statecraft at the time.
I think the it is because people's focus was on other things - something like WW1.
And by the time that ended it was already too late for those who had done nothing for years due to WW1 to resolve issues
Ydoethur might well correct me, but my understanding is that had it not been for WWI there might well have been a Protestant vs Catholic civil war in Ireland by about 1915. With some at least of the British Army intervening on the Protestant side. "Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right!"
Fomented by leading Tories, indeed.
We need to let Ireland go..... its been nothing but trouble since we invaded.
Britain would let NI go in an instant. The problem lies with the people there - too many want to stay atm.
We could let Fermanagah and Tyrone go to join the Republic tomorrow, they are already majority Catholic with Sinn Fein MPs and voted Remain in the EU referendum .
However in Antrim, the largest county in Northern Ireland, every seat is held by the DUP and those seats also voted Leave in the EU referendum. Rather than let Northern Ireland go what would be more sensible would be a redrawing of the boundaries
We are not going to divide or redraw the boundaries, that is ridiculous. Either NI stays or NI goes.
Or has a civil war if the boundaries are not redrawn
No.
You obviously do not understand its history, NI was created to avoid a civil war.
Loyalist paramilitaries, the Orange Order etc would not accept being forced out of the UK
Well as there were no “paramilitaries” at the time I can surmise that you don’t have a fucking clue
O/T The Labour row over John McDonnell's remarks on IndyRef2 is bizarre. What is going on? Surely it wouldn't have been hard to come up some flim-flam to keep options open on this? It looks as though McDonnell - previously very disciplined - has gone rogue.
Is it rogue? Or is it kite flying?
He does seem to lead the path on a few issues then Corbyn follows.
It seems a very odd kite to fly, especially since he doesn't seem to have warned the SLab leader that he was about to do so.
I think that is arrogance and to feed into the narrative of @malcolmg simply shows McDonnell doesn't care about SLAB's leader.
It is called democracy, McDonnell understands the Law and knows you cannot keep people in slavery any more. They are entitled to a vote of self determination. It is not the purview of any Westminster politician to dictate when Scotland has a vote on the constitutional question. While the matter may be reserved in terms of constitution, UK law is SUBORDINATE to international law and to international treaties. So important is the right to self-determination the the United Nations made it the first paragraph of the first article in the first part of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ratified by resolution 2200A (XXI) of 16 December 1966under article 49. In states: "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."
Tell that to the people of Catalonia
A second referendum is a reserved matter. I happen to think that Westminster would be foolish to ignore a legitimate request for another vote, but they absolutely have the right to
I was born in Hull in 1959 and the effects of the German bombing were still visible throughout my childhood. Listening to my mother talk about the bombing is deeply moving; she tells of the mornings in school, waiting to see who didn’t turn up when bombs had fallen nearby.
There was a BBC documentary on the Hull experience a couple of years ago. Near the start, a map is shown of the impacts of bombs. I was stunned to see how many had landed during the whole war on the part of the city where I grew up. Then the presenter revealed that the map was for just one night of the blitz.
My parents cleared a bomb site in Kensington in the late 70s to build their house
Given the situation in Ireland in the early 20th Century, and the height at which passions, especially in the Protestant community were running, it's perhaps understandable, though. That 'it' was allowed to get to that state is a very severe criticism of statecraft at the time.
I think the it is because people's focus was on other things - something like WW1.
And by the time that ended it was already too late for those who had done nothing for years due to WW1 to resolve issues
Ydoethur might well correct me, but my understanding is that had it not been for WWI there might well have been a Protestant vs Catholic civil war in Ireland by about 1915. With some at least of the British Army intervening on the Protestant side. "Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right!"
Fomented by leading Tories, indeed.
We need to let Ireland go..... its been nothing but trouble since we invaded.
Britain would let NI go in an instant. The problem lies with the people there - too many want to stay atm.
We could let Fermanagah and Tyrone go to join the Republic tomorrow, they are already majority Catholic with Sinn Fein MPs and voted Remain in the EU referendum .
However in Antrim, the largest county in Northern Ireland, every seat is held by the DUP and those seats also voted Leave in the EU referendum. Rather than let Northern Ireland go what would be more sensible would be a redrawing of the boundaries
We are not going to divide or redraw the boundaries, that is ridiculous. Either NI stays or NI goes.
Or has a civil war if the boundaries are not redrawn
No.
You obviously do not understand its history, NI was created to avoid a civil war.
Loyalist paramilitaries, the Orange Order etc would not accept being forced out of the UK
Well as there were no “paramilitaries” at the time I can surmise that you don’t have a fucking clue
There was the Ulster Volunteer Force at the time and there are loyalist paramilitaries now
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A second referendum is a reserved matter. I happen to think that Westminster would be foolish to ignore a legitimate request for another vote, but they absolutely have the right to