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  • Roger said:

    Foxy

    "So you agree that the policy differences are negligible and Labours lead is based on perception rather than reality?"

    The difference is HUGE.

    Labour give a shit and that's a massive difference.

    I'm having some very expensive treatment at the moment so I asked the hospital whether it was any use to them that I was in BUPA. I didn't want any different or private treatment just that they as a charitable trust they might be able to use the money. In no uncertain terms they said they don't touch private medicine but I would be welcome to go to the local BUPA hospital if I wanted.

    I really like the NHS their employees and Labour's part in it.

    How is it performing in Wales, or are you a coward as well?
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    If they do, they shouldn't especially when a vote is being held on an important Labour party motion.
    AndyJS said:

    Do MPs still have a pairing system? That might explain why some Labour MPs weren't voting.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Jim Murphy abstained on the bedroom tax, according to Twitter.

    Did he indeed. Blairites will be Blairites after all. What of wee Dougie and Darling?

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    George Osborne and Jeremy Hunt should both catch Newsnight Scotland tonight. And as for chasing housing bubbles, what housing bubbles as house prices have been stagnating and continue to do so in Scotland.
  • Ed Balls didn't vote...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,966
    old labour as benefits were provided which did not always meet peoples' housing needs in effect that was what it was
  • Mick

    Darling voted. No show for Dougie.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Mick

    Darling voted. No show for Dougie.

    Yeah just noticed that Andrea, thanks.

    Curious since Darling abstained on such votes before if memory serves.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    @CarlottaVance
    The Iain Martin book has gone up to £9.99 now on Amazon.
  • Other missing..random order...Gordon, Blunkett, Field, Boy Sarwar, Doran, Ruddock,

    Blears voted.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    I wish the buggers would break down the vote by party affiliation and publish a list of MPs who did not vote.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I left the Labour party for two main reasons. Its dishonesty over the Iraq war and its dishonesty over NHS privatization.

    Sooner or later Labour will be back in power as either a majority or minority government. I expect it to be a dishonest disappointment again.

    It is all about deceiving the public. Post election NHS policy will be indistinguishable from today, apart from some minor cosmesis.

    It is the cynicism that gets me. Fool enough of the people enough of the time.
    IOS said:

    Fox

    The next Labour government is going to be a majority. Something the Tories cannot achieve cos they simply cannot get the "politics" right.

    Cameron should never ever have given Lansley that position. He should have stuck Vince there.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited November 2013
    The government calls it a penalty. Sounds like a fine or punishment to me.

    I believe the use of the phrase "community charge" probably died with Margaret Thatcher.
    HYUFD said:

    old labour as benefits were provided which did not always meet peoples' housing needs in effect that was what it was

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited November 2013
    I have just been reading up about the old Labour pilot from years ago on Hansard, and it would suggest that there is such a thing as a 'spare room subsidy'. Notice how Labour's language on this policy has changed now they are in Opposition criticising another Government for trying to tackle the same issue, now its a 'bedroom tax'? Parliament.UK
    "The under-occupation pilot encourages housing benefit recipients living in under- occupied social housing to move to smaller and cheaper accommodation in order to make more efficient use of housing stock. The pilot is expected to run until 2003"

    There is no such thing as a "spare room subsidy" because no such thing existed in the first place.

    HYUFD said:

    OldLabour/Carlotta Please could we not keep referring to it as the bedroom 'tax' since when has removal of a handout in the form of a spare room subsidy constituted a tax?

  • Roger said:

    Foxy

    "So you agree that the policy differences are negligible and Labours lead is based on perception rather than reality?"

    The difference is HUGE.

    Labour give a shit and that's a massive difference.

    I'm having some very expensive treatment at the moment so I asked the hospital whether it was any use to them that I was in BUPA. I didn't want any different or private treatment just that they as a charitable trust they might be able to use the money. In no uncertain terms they said they don't touch private medicine but I would be welcome to go to the local BUPA hospital if I wanted.

    I really like the NHS their employees and Labour's part in it.

    Why don't you opt out of Bupa then?
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
  • Other SLAB missing

    Donohe from Central Ayrshire
    Hood from Lanark and Hamilton East
    McKechin
    Pamela Nash from Airdrie and Shotts

    A couple of them have been MP for decades without people noticing it....
    Mick_Pork said:

    Mick

    Darling voted. No show for Dougie.

    Yeah just noticed that Andrea, thanks.

    Curious since Darling abstained on such votes before if memory serves.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A very good question.

    I do not have private health insurance, why do you roger?

    Roger said:

    Foxy

    "So you agree that the policy differences are negligible and Labours lead is based on perception rather than reality?"

    The difference is HUGE.

    Labour give a shit and that's a massive difference.

    I'm having some very expensive treatment at the moment so I asked the hospital whether it was any use to them that I was in BUPA. I didn't want any different or private treatment just that they as a charitable trust they might be able to use the money. In no uncertain terms they said they don't touch private medicine but I would be welcome to go to the local BUPA hospital if I wanted.

    I really like the NHS their employees and Labour's part in it.

    Why don't you opt out of Bupa then?
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Nigel

    Politics with FPTP is all about winning. You want discussion. Vote for PR.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,966
    old labour even the community charge was a tax proposal
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    I see no reference to "spare room subsidy" in the legislation, nor in the quote you have provided.
    fitalass said:

    I have just been reading up about the old Labour pilot from years ago on Hansard, and it would suggest that there is such a thing as a 'spare room subsidy'. Notice how Labour's language on this policy has changed now they are in Opposition criticising another Government for trying to tackle the same issue, now its a 'bedroom tax'? Parliament.UK
    "The under-occupation pilot encourages housing benefit recipients living in under- occupied social housing to move to smaller and cheaper accommodation in order to make more efficient use of housing stock. The pilot is expected to run until 2003"

    There is no such thing as a "spare room subsidy" because no such thing existed in the first place.

    HYUFD said:

    OldLabour/Carlotta Please could we not keep referring to it as the bedroom 'tax' since when has removal of a handout in the form of a spare room subsidy constituted a tax?

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Careful, your petticoat is showing again.

    currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
  • IOS said:

    Nigel

    Politics with FPTP is all about winning. You want discussion. Vote for PR.

    Like I said, winning is all you care about, not making things better

    You should be ashamed of yourself but you are probably too stupid for that as well
  • IOS said:

    Nigel

    Politics with FPTP is all about winning. You want discussion. Vote for PR.

    Like I said, winning is all you care about, not making things better

    You should be ashamed of yourself but you are probably too stupid for that as well
    Nigel, there is a common theme to your posting. Anyone who you do not agree with you class as stupid. Do you do this in real life?
  • Abbott not present either
  • Ed Balls didn't vote...

    He's in NY tweeting tourist snaps of "sunrise on the Empire State Building from my hotel room"
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    No Nigel. This is a betting site. There are no bets about who is better at running the NHS. There are bets on who wins elections. I am simply making my point to the many Tories on here that are trying to argue that their points are irrelevant. The public has already made up their mind.


    When you are arguing the details you are losing. On the NHS, the Tories have lost.

  • Ed Balls didn't vote...

    He's in NY tweeting tourist snaps of "sunrise on the Empire State Building from my hotel room"
    Any pictures of him on a beach with his moobs out?
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
  • @CarlottaVance
    The Iain Martin book has gone up to £9.99 now on Amazon.

    Did you get it for 49p?


  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Other SLAB missing

    Donohe from Central Ayrshire
    Hood from Lanark and Hamilton East
    McKechin
    Pamela Nash from Airdrie and Shotts

    A couple of them have been MP for decades without people noticing it....


    Mick_Pork said:

    Mick

    Darling voted. No show for Dougie.

    Yeah just noticed that Andrea, thanks.

    Curious since Darling abstained on such votes before if memory serves.
    Without some people noticing certainly. Donohoe has a small degree of infamy for reasons that will be familiar to quite a few in SLAB.
    Tim Reid ‏@TimReidBBC 2 Mar 11

    LD Willie Rennie was 2nd highest claimant, Lab's Brian Donohoe and ex MP Mohammed Sarwar next. #expenses
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
    So in short, that is a no then.
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
    Don't tell me Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman.....they are all stupid also?
  • Ed Balls didn't vote...

    He's in NY tweeting tourist snaps of "sunrise on the Empire State Building from my hotel room"
    Any pictures of him on a beach with his moobs out?
    Whatever floats your boat......
  • IOS said:

    Nigel

    Politics with FPTP is all about winning. You want discussion. Vote for PR.

    Like I said, winning is all you care about, not making things better

    You should be ashamed of yourself but you are probably too stupid for that as well
    Nigel, there is a common theme to your posting. Anyone who you do not agree with you class as stupid. Do you do this in real life?
    Not to everyone, no. Only stupid people
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    An example of what is repeated at numerous Councils across the country

    http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=23142

    Councils paying people, in this case a grand, for a tenant to move from an under occupied property to one that is more suitable. How can this be, according to the know all posters on here there are not any properties to move into and it is impossible to move to smaller accommodation. It is also cruel and abhorrent and anyone who agrees with it needs to be shot. By he way it was Labour who introduced these tenants incentive schemes to make better use of the housing stock. Clearly a good policy when in government, but a cruel nasty policy when in opposition.
  • Ed Balls didn't vote...

    He's in NY tweeting tourist snaps of "sunrise on the Empire State Building from my hotel room"
    Any pictures of him on a beach with his moobs out?
    Whatever floats your boat......
    Or in a restaurant in Cornwall, on his two day trip before jetting off elsewhere, with forty photographers around him?
  • IOS said:

    No Nigel. This is a betting site. There are no bets about who is better at running the NHS. There are bets on who wins elections. I am simply making my point to the many Tories on here that are trying to argue that their points are irrelevant. The public has already made up their mind.


    When you are arguing the details you are losing. On the NHS, the Tories have lost.

    Have the public in Wales made up their mind?
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
    So what was Omnishambles then......a revised political victory?
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
    So what was Omnishambles then......a revised political victory?
    So how is the economy doing today, say compared to France?
  • @Mick Pork

    David Hamilton from Midlothian absent too
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
    Don't get me wrong I want him to stay as Chancellor until the election and I want the Conservative Party to keep trumping how brilliant the economy is doing. This will highlight the problem in their economic policy which is tilted towards a small section of society. The vast majority will realise that the upturn in the economy is only benefiting this small section of society whilst the rest continue to struggle as their income continually is outstripped by inflation....Go Gideon!!
  • IOS said:

    Nigel

    Politics with FPTP is all about winning. You want discussion. Vote for PR.

    Like I said, winning is all you care about, not making things better

    You should be ashamed of yourself but you are probably too stupid for that as well
    Nigel, there is a common theme to your posting. Anyone who you do not agree with you class as stupid. Do you do this in real life?
    So far this evening I have asked IOS how the NHS and education in Wales are performing and I have asked Roger why he doesn't opt out of Bupa?

    Answers came their none, which leads me to believe they should not have raised the issues in the first place, and are stupid to have done so.

    In your case you have refuted how well the Economy is doing by stating, quite hilariously, that Osborne will flatline the economy in the months leading up to the election because he has only ever had two jobs. The sort of childish comment I would expect from a fifth form crusader, and as such you win the prize for most stupid post this evening.
  • Ed Balls didn't vote...

    He's in NY tweeting tourist snaps of "sunrise on the Empire State Building from my hotel room"
    Any pictures of him on a beach with his moobs out?
    Whatever floats your boat......
    Or in a restaurant in Cornwall, on his two day trip before jetting off elsewhere, with forty photographers around him?
    Was Parliament sitting?
  • currystar said:

    Its interesting that the worst chancellor in history, that incompetent fop who will lead this country to financial ruin and 5 million unemployed is no longer the topic of discussion anymore on this site. Could it be inflation at 2.2%, excellent growth figures, falling unemployment, record employment ,a buoyant economy and a falling deficit have led to this. Its amazing with Osborne being so incompetent that such things are happening. As well all know Balls, Miliband and Blanchflower are always right.

    You do realise the Osborne will fuck it up before the election, don't you? He will somehow flatline the economy in the last few months of the parliament. You do remember for all the hundreds and thousands of pound daddy invested in his education and one of the only two real jobs he could get was folding returned towels at Selfridges. Lucky for him daddy got him a job in the Conservative Party.
    OMG there are some extremely thick lefties on here but that post wins you first prize,
    What? You do know the only two jobs Osborne has ever had, not counting daddy getting him his Conservative Party one, don't you?
    I don't care how many jobs he has had, though if he only had one that would be one more than Miliband.

    He has done a great job of turning the economy around without causing mass unemployment, any halfwit can see that.

    Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman, all of them completely wrong, all of the time
    Don't tell me Balls, Miliband, Blanchflower, Krugman.....they are all stupid also?
    Why don't you publish on here all the quotes they made about how Osborne was handling the economy and let people make their own minds up.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited November 2013
    at first glance, I spot the following Lab MPs missing

    Ed Balls (he's in USA)
    Douglas Alexander
    Jim Murphy
    Umunna (he's in Palestine)
    Frank Field
    Diane Abbott
    David Blunkett
    Shawn Woodward
    Alan Johnson
    Gordon Brown
    Tessa Jowell
    Debbie Abrahams
    Hugh Bayley
    McKechin
    Donohe
    Doran
    Ruddock
    Pamela Nash
    Sarwar
    Jonathan Ashworth
    Ann Coffey
    De Piero
    Clive Efford
    Paul Flynn
    Mike Gapes
    David Hamilton
    Hood
    Sian James
    Kaufman
    Lammy
    McDonagh
    Alan Meale
    Meg Munn
    Geoffrey Robinson
    Spellar
    Sutcliffe
    Joan Walley
    Watts
    Whitehead


  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Yes, thank you. Haven't started reading it yet.

    @CarlottaVance
    The Iain Martin book has gone up to £9.99 now on Amazon.

    Did you get it for 49p?


  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited November 2013
    Way back when all the credible Republican contenders were one by one announcing they would not be throwing their hats in the ring last time around. I was particularly struck by a comment I read somewhere supposedly from one of them which I will have to adlib on now. But the general gist was about the fact that no serious Republican candidate was going to be able to live up to the expectations of the Republican base in that contest. We had a lot of fun with those candidates who did run, but it was always far more telling who decided to sit that one out.

    Now take the most powerful vested interest and protest group that Ed Miliband and his party are strongly aligned too, and then stick a Tea Party cosy on top of Len McCluskey's heid.

    So you agree that the policy differences are negligible and Labours lead is based on perception rather than reality?

    Labour is building up expectations it cannot, or will not, meet. It is going to be a Hollande like disappointment to voters.

    As Johnny Rotton sagely observed:

    "Ever felt that you've been cheated?"

    But its all about jobs for the SPADs, not about policy. Its just about fooling enough of the people enough of the time.

    IOS said:

    Fox

    I do not need to defend any Labour policies on the NHS because the public doesn't want us to. They Trust Labour with an institution that they love. They do not Trust the Tories.


    This is all David Cameron's fault. Don't complain at me. Complain at the guy that tried to neutralise the NHS but then turned on his word.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited November 2013
    Thanks, Andrea. I hope their constituents and party members take them to task if they were not there without a very good reason.

    at first glance, I spot the following Lab MPs missing

    Ed Balls (he's in USA)
    Douglas Alexander
    Jim Murphy
    Umunna (he's in Palestine)
    Frank Field
    Diane Abbott
    David Blunkett
    Shawn Woodward
    Alan Johnson
    Gordon Brown
    Tessa Jowell
    Debbie Abrahams
    Hugh Bayley
    McKechin
    Donohe
    Doran
    Ruddock
    Pamela Nash
    Sarwar
    Jonathan Ashworth
    Ann Coffey
    De Piero
    Clive Efford
    Paul Flynn
    Mike Gapes
    David Hamilton
    Hood
    Sian James
    Kaufman
    Lammy
    McDonagh
    Alan Meale
    Meg Munn
    Geoffrey Robinson
    Spellar
    Sutcliffe
    Joan Walley
    Watts
    Whitehead


  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    2006 No. 213
    SOCIAL SECURITY
    The Housing Benefit Regulations 2006


    Determination of a maximum rent (social sector)

    B13.—(1) The maximum rent (social sector) is determined in accordance with
    paragraphs (2) to (4).
    (2) The relevant authority must determine a limited rent by–
    (a) determining the amount that the claimant’s eligible rent would be in accordance with regulation 12B(2) without applying regulation 12B(4) and (6);
    (b) where the number of bedrooms in the dwelling exceeds the number of bedrooms to which the claimant is entitled in accordance with paragraph (5) to (7), reducing that amount by the appropriate percentage set out in paragraph (3);
    http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/a8-2501.pdf

    I guess some of them voted for it then...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @NigelFE

    "So far this evening I have asked IOS how the NHS and education in Wales are performing and I have asked Roger why he doesn't opt out of Bupa?"

    The rather prosaic answer is that I have an occasional atrial fibrillation and with BUPA I can call my heart specialist instantly who gives me a relatively instant cardioversion which saves me about ten days if I did it on the NHS. As my work involves a lot of travel abroad saving these ten days makes it worth the cost.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @Andrea

    "at first glance, I spot the following Lab MPs missing"

    No wonder Michael Crick thinks you're such a phenomenon!
  • Roger said:

    @NigelFE

    "So far this evening I have asked IOS how the NHS and education in Wales are performing and I have asked Roger why he doesn't opt out of Bupa?"

    The rather prosaic answer is that I have an occasional atrial fibrillation and with BUPA I can call my heart specialist instantly who gives me a relatively instant cardioversion which saves me about ten days if I did it on the NHS. As my work involves a lot of travel abroad saving these ten days makes it worth the cost.

    So you agree that private is better than the NHS then!

    Interesting, particularly in light of you earlier post.

    I withdraw my remark about you being stupid, just a hypocrite
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    The latest Times article on Falkirk/Unite/Labour scandal looks interesting.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    edited November 2013
    @Nigel

    Its like comparing a private tutor with a school class. Its silly. They both can have a place but whereas the NHS could fulfil everyone's needs without BUPA -and does- BUPA couldn't scratch the surface.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    There must be a good reason for so many Labour MPs not voting last night.

    I'm just struggling to think what it could be...
  • fitalass said:

    The latest Times article on Falkirk/Unite/Labour scandal looks interesting.

    Do you not find it strange that the Labour lead has increased in the polls since Falkirk? Totally unrelated of course and a pure coincidence....but long may this unrelated coincidence last. Nice graph don't you think?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/UK_opinion_polling_2010-2015.png
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    It just takes one spark for the cover up in a scandal to blow up, but it helps if you have a group of like minded folk who think that the way rules and democracy have been abused in this case absolutely stink. The hypocrisy and silence of Labour politicians who would be all over this scandal like a rash if it involved anyone but the Labour party and its biggest donor Unite. I feel really sorry for the long serving and hard working local Labour party members, activists and politicians in Falkirk, as well as all those Unite workers at Grangemouth who deserved so much better from their party and their Union.
    fitalass said:

    The latest Times article on Falkirk/Unite/Labour scandal looks interesting.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    So am I, they need to get up off their effing arses and force their opposite numbers to do the same.
    AndyJS said:

    There must be a good reason for so many Labour MPs not voting last night.

    I'm just struggling to think what it could be...

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Just maybe these MP's remember the decade of the last Labour Government trying and failing to find a solution to this problem, and they then decided they didn't want to be total hypocrites in Opposition?

    So am I, they need to get up off their effing arses and force their opposite numbers to do the same.

    AndyJS said:

    There must be a good reason for so many Labour MPs not voting last night.

    I'm just struggling to think what it could be...

  • Roger said:

    @Nigel

    Its like comparing a private tutor with a school class. Its silly. They both can have a place but whereas the NHS could fulfil everyone's needs without BUPA -and does- BUPA couldn't scratch the surface.

    Healthcare's a funny thing, seems to bring out the most ridiculous arguments from all sides.

    While Brits (rightly) poke fun at Tea Partiers' apocalyptic visions of a failed NHS and its gruesome death panels, I suspect few of us are aware of the mechanisms by which our health care is inevitably rationed unless it affects us personally or professionally.

    On the flip side, many people have a view of health care provision in the USA as avaricious butchery, a grotesque distortion of the truth as bizarre and incorrect as the Tea Party vision of the UK. Not helped by the substantial variation in policy between states, and the important kernel of truth that on the whole the USA is a worse place to be chronically sick, and particularly (as often the case) both sick and poor, than western Europe.

    Plenty of British armchair free-marketeers proclaim they could cure the woes of the NHS by flogging it to BUPA and AXA, without noticing that they are competing in a completely different market and are not good analogues to private sector providers elsewhere. They also seem blissfully unaware of the poor record on costs and competition of the British private healthcare sector, which is hardly a glowing advertisement for it to take over the NHS.

    And those who say the private sector or an insurance-based system could simply never deliver the scale and quality of care that the NHS does, fail to grasp how how distinctive and unusual the monolithic NHS model is. Yet many of them manage to do so, within a sentence of drawing unfavourable comparisons to to a (privately-provided, insurance funded) continental neighbour.

    The quality of British public debate on lots of issues is reassuringly complex and nuanced - on health and social care it's risible. On few topics (notably criminal rehabilitation/reoffending) is it lower.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,718
    edited November 2013



    Healthcare's a funny thing, seems to bring out the most ridiculous arguments from all sides.

    While Brits (rightly) poke fun at Tea Partiers' apocalyptic visions of a failed NHS and its gruesome death panels, I suspect few of us are aware of the mechanisms by which our health care is inevitably rationed unless it affects us personally or professionally.

    On the flip side, many people have a view of health care provision in the USA as avaricious butchery, a grotesque distortion of the truth as bizarre and incorrect as the Tea Party vision of the UK. Not helped by the substantial variation in policy between states, and the important kernel of truth that on the whole the USA is a worse place to be chronically sick, and particularly (as often the case) both sick and poor, than western Europe.

    Plenty of British armchair free-marketeers proclaim they could cure the woes of the NHS by flogging it to BUPA and AXA, without noticing that they are competing in a completely different market and are not good analogues to private sector providers elsewhere. They also seem blissfully unaware of the poor record on costs and competition of the British private healthcare sector, which is hardly a glowing advertisement for it to take over the NHS.

    And those who say the private sector or an insurance-based system could simply never deliver the scale and quality of care that the NHS does, fail to grasp how how distinctive and unusual the monolithic NHS model is. Yet many of them manage to do so, within a sentence of drawing unfavourable comparisons to to a (privately-provided, insurance funded) continental neighbour.

    The quality of British public debate on lots of issues is reassuringly complex and nuanced - on health and social care it's risible. On few topics (notably criminal rehabilitation/reoffending) is it lower.

    I suggest, Mr Ears, that in any discussion of health care it's becoming increasing necessary to draw a distinction between the systems existing in the four parts of the United Kingdom. Policies and procedures in primary care at least are becoming, I'm assured, significantly more patient friendly in Scotland. However when it is suggested that some similar policies are introduced in England, hands are held up in horror with protestions that such changes can only be introduced on a Commissioning Group basis.

This discussion has been closed.