Jezziah is the reason why people like me don't just stay in the Labour Party but stay active and fight. We cannot let his kind of scum - and your words this morning demonstrate that you ARE reprehensible scum sir - destroy this party.
The absurd spin machine attack as propagated by him this morning only pushes the voters further away and with it the chances of a Labour government. And that's the betting tip of the morning - we will soon have a Tory party led by a man not fit for public office, a Labour party led by a man not fit for public office, a Brexit party led by a man not fit for public office. We have already seen that voting public are willing to switch as they see fit...
There must however be a tipping point where the party is irrevocably damaged and you'd be doing it and the country a favour by walking away?
Throwing the baby out with the vile anti-semitic, soviet enriched bathwater gives us a generation or two of Boris Johnsons as our PM. It is nonetheless an unpleasant dilemma to overcome.
Vote Lib Dem to hold the balance of power, or even more
By voting LD, Alun Cairns without doubt remains as my MP.
Could be worse. Mine's Priti Patel!
Why we need multi-member constituencies with STV, or at least a Holyrood style system of PR.
Please not AMS. I hate the idea of two classes of MP.
She's ambitious and can see which way the wind is blowing, within her party at least.
Its the more principled MPs at the edge who offer the prospect of bringing Boris down - the Lees and Greenings
Refusing to accept you were democratically defeated after pledging to respect the result isn't principled.
Damaging or even sacrificing your career in defence of a long held personal position is principled; chopping and changing your position depending on the views of your party or its leadership is not.
Indeed so if Lee had refused to back a referendum then he would have been very principled.
Holding or backing a position of "we will let the people decide" then switching to "wrong answer, I won't implement any version if that" is not principled.
If thejezziah reaction to one of the most mannered, intelligent and rational labour supporters SO is anything to go by, imagine what it will be like with jezza and the cult in charge of the country. Anybody who is critical is going to get the mob treatment.
Having worked in finance, I know one of Alex Ferguson's sons reasonably well. Back when Mr Ferguson was running Manchester Utd, I heard why Alex Ferguson was trusted so much by his players.
Simply, no matter what you did, he would back you in public. A stupid challenge? It was never a card, the referee must have been blind. A karate kick at a fan? Appalling provocation, the police should be involved.
In the dressing room, it was another matter. Sir Alex might throw boots at you or scream at you. He would tell you what he really thought of your behaviour.
But in front of the public: he always had your back, whether you were right or wrong.
That's how Boris Johnson should have been. He could tell Sir Kim to resign in private. But in public, he has to back his man.
That he did not, tells you much of the character of the man.
My first boss was like that. When I as a trainee made a stupid mistake he would shout at the other side until it was sorted to everyone's satisfaction with never a hint that I might have made a mistake. And then privately tell me not to be so stupid again. I don't think I ever had a better boss. It gave you a lot of confidence to get on and do your job.
One of my best bosses as a junior doctor in the Emergency Dept was just like that. Whenever we clashed with another department, we had absolute confidence he would back us. Afterwards he would quietly talk through how we could have handled it better. Never the hairdryer. The combination of expertise, support and approachability is something that I try to emulate now that I am in the supervisory position. It works, and juniors are always willing to go the extra mile under that sort of regime.
I tried very hard to live up to the same standards when I was the boss. Its not easy.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
TheJezziah's total lack of empathy and solidarity with a succession of people so traumatised by working for the Labour party that they had nervous breakdowns and even contemplated suicide is mirrored by the reactions of the party itself and its various outriders to the Panorama documentary.
Non-Labour members, imagine being Jewish or a non-Corbyn cultist in room full of Jezziahs. That's what many CLP meetings up and down the country are like these days - and there are many people suffering the anguish experienced by the Panorama interviewees as a result.
Yes, that guy's resignation letter that went viral on Twitter last week began with the abuse he received whenever he walked into a party meeting, simply because he wasn't a Corbynite.
Setting on one side the allegations of antisemitism, Corbyn’s Labour has proved itself as unprincipled and abusive an employer as the worst of capitalists.
Political parties, and indeed trade unions, often turn out to be bad employers. I have always seen it as similar to the number of builders whose own houses are falling down.
Charities too in my experience. What I think that these organisations all have in common is that they have a conceit that they are morally superior to other organisations because of their objectives and they use this conceit to impose a different standard on themselves. The use of NDAs in this case by Labour is a classic example.
I concur. Trade unions, political parties and charities are often nasty employers. Bullying seems to be more frequent than in other organisations. There ought to be good research on frequency of workplace bullying in different types of organisation. Can anyone point us in direction?
I agree with the problem, but not (quite) with the "morally superior conceit" thing.
I think on one hand, it's more subtle: just assuming everyone's in it for the cause so we don't have to worry about HR, process, IT support, compliance or any of the other things which well-run organisations have.
And on the other, it's a far simpler lack of resources: organisations which are short of them to start with and are acutely aware that their members and supporters expect them to put every last penny into the cause rather than "administration".
Having experienced (and managed in) a range of working environments from v.small commercial to large public sector, I would definitely say there's a sweet spot to be found for effective running of an organisation. (Culture is obvs also important.. and clearly lacking in this case).
Jezziah is the reason why people like me don't just stay in the Labour Party but stay active and fight. We cannot let his kind of scum - and your words this morning demonstrate that you ARE reprehensible scum sir - destroy this party.
The absurd spin machine attack as propagated by him this morning only pushes the voters further away and with it the chances of a Labour government. And that's the betting tip of the morning - we will soon have a Tory party led by a man not fit for public office, a Labour party led by a man not fit for public office, a Brexit party led by a man not fit for public office. We have already seen that voting public are willing to switch as they see fit...
There must however be a tipping point where the party is irrevocably damaged and you'd be doing it and the country a favour by walking away?
Throwing the baby out with the vile anti-semitic, soviet enriched bathwater gives us a generation or two of Boris Johnsons as our PM. It is nonetheless an unpleasant dilemma to overcome.
Vote Lib Dem to hold the balance of power, or even more
By voting LD, Alun Cairns without doubt remains as my MP.
Could be worse. Mine's Priti Patel!
Why we need multi-member constituencies with STV, or at least a Holyrood style system of PR.
Please not AMS. I hate the idea of two classes of MP.
Baden Wurttemburg operates AMS without party lists.
I would like the HoL replaced by a Senate of Regions and Nations.
I would have each represented by Senators, appointed by devolved governments and county councils in proportion to population. Mostly I would expect these to be chosen from those who had served in elected office, though I would not restrict it to these.
This would give representation to neglected regions, and encourage high calibre applicants to local and devolved governments.
The system you advocate is essentially that adopted in Germany where the Bundesrat is the second chamber with representatives appointed by the Lander and with limited powers to act as a check on the first chamber. It seems to work well enough for them. In the UK it would I think lead in time for a push towards meaningless regional devolution in a more coherent form than the hotch potch of scraps we have so far seen, creating a body that would push for some real powers to be restored to local government and possibly eventually leading to regional government throughout the UK rather than just in the devolved nations which would go some way towards rebalancing our constitution.
TheJezziah's total lack of empathy and solidarity with a succession of people so traumatised by working for the Labour party that they had nervous breakdowns and even contemplated suicide is mirrored by the reactions of the party itself and its various outriders to the Panorama documentary. This basic failure to acknowledge the genuine pain suffered by people who only wanted the best for Labour shows just how toxic the party has become.
Non-Labour members, imagine being Jewish or a non-Corbyn cultist in room full of Jezziahs. That's what many CLP meetings up and down the country are like these days - and there are many people suffering the anguish experienced by the Panorama interviewees as a result.
Crocodile tears from someone who wants the slaughter or Iraq, the death of David Kelly back. Not to mention it was these people messing around with cases to attack Corbyn when a suicide was committed.
It is the centrists with blood on their hands, but they attack others to try and assuage their own guilt. Look in the mirror mate, it is people exactly like you the electorate is moving away from, old, rich and white who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves, a typical example of a selfish generation.
We've quickly moved on from crocodile tears to being annoyed at people bringing up inconvenient facts... hey who cares about the people killed, ideological purity is all that matters to you.
The idea that you have even a passing interest in dead Iraqis beyond the opportunity they give you to deflect criticisms of the Labour leadership is laughable.
Just how toxic is Labour? Last night on Panorama we learned that its leadership instructed Carter Ruck to send a highly intimidatory legal letter to a former employee who had been so traumatised by his experiences of working for the party that he had contemplated suicide.
Unfortunately a climate has been created where it is impossible even to discuss a documentary without fear of being caught in this Salem witch trial. I have no idea what working for the Labour Party is like but I've worked for several agencies where some of their staff were traumatised by workloads and schedules. To point to someone who couldn't stand the anti semitism and thus contemplated suicide and to suggest this tells us anything other than she has problems is ridiculous.
I'm afraid you're making the mistake Jezziah is making but in reverse. Corbyn's a lousy leader because he's a lousy leader not because he's an anti semite. Because you want to prove him a lousy leader he has to be an anti Semite. Because Corbyn can do no wrong he can't be an anti semite...It's crap.
We need a six month moratorium after which we could discuss with some degree of intelligence the difference between supporting the plight of the Palestinians and being anti semtic
She's ambitious and can see which way the wind is blowing, within her party at least.
Its the more principled MPs at the edge who offer the prospect of bringing Boris down - the Lees and Greenings
Refusing to accept you were democratically defeated after pledging to respect the result isn't principled.
Damaging or even sacrificing your career in defence of a long held personal position is principled; chopping and changing your position depending on the views of your party or its leadership is not.
Indeed so if Lee had refused to back a referendum then he would have been very principled.
Holding or backing a position of "we will let the people decide" then switching to "wrong answer, I won't implement any version if that" is not principled.
Very principled if indeed it is truly the wrong answer.
Clearly a blairite agent of Israel. Am I right @TheJezziah ?
He's clocked off. He was up in the middle of the night and as you might have seen Lab has just agreed a pay & conditions deal at their HQ so he has a mandatory break.
Mr. Pete, I strongly suspect Boris will be a terrible PM.
That doesn't change the fact he's not far right, and therefore not the atrocious equivalent of Corbyn.
If Boris wins the leadership but Labour ousts Corbyn and replaces him with someone boring but sane, it'd be interesting. But I'll believe the far left has had its grip prised from Labour when it happens.
Yes Corbyn is the personification of the SWP. However in order to achieve his ambition Johnson has jettisoned his 'one nation Tory' baggage; and please excuse the horrific vision, is now in bed with Farage and Trump.
She's ambitious and can see which way the wind is blowing, within her party at least.
Its the more principled MPs at the edge who offer the prospect of bringing Boris down - the Lees and Greenings
Refusing to accept you were democratically defeated after pledging to respect the result isn't principled.
Damaging or even sacrificing your career in defence of a long held personal position is principled; chopping and changing your position depending on the views of your party or its leadership is not.
Indeed so if Lee had refused to back a referendum then he would have been very principled.
Holding or backing a position of "we will let the people decide" then switching to "wrong answer, I won't implement any version if that" is not principled.
Very principled if indeed it is truly the wrong answer.
If it was truly the wrong answer why did he ask the question? And why did he promise to honour the public's choice.
It would have been very principled . . . like Ken Clarke did . . . to say the question shouldn't be asked. Clarke held long term principles doing that.
Jezziah is the reason why people like me don't just stay in the Labour Party but stay active and fight. We cannot let his kind of scum - and your words this morning demonstrate that you ARE reprehensible scum sir - destroy this party.
The absurd spin machine attack as propagated by him this morning only pushes the voters further away and with it the chances of a Labour government. And that's the betting tip of the morning - we will soon have a Tory party led by a man not fit for public office, a Labour party led by a man not fit for public office, a Brexit party led by a man not fit for public office. We have already seen that voting public are willing to switch as they see fit...
There must however be a tipping point where the party is irrevocably damaged and you'd be doing it and the country a favour by walking away?
Throwing the baby out with the vile anti-semitic, soviet enriched bathwater gives us a generation or two of Boris Johnsons as our PM. It is nonetheless an unpleasant dilemma to overcome.
Vote Lib Dem to hold the balance of power, or even more
By voting LD, Alun Cairns without doubt remains as my MP.
Could be worse. Mine's Priti Patel!
Why we need multi-member constituencies with STV, or at least a Holyrood style system of PR.
Please not AMS. I hate the idea of two classes of MP.
I'm sure the country can live with your irrational dislike.
She's ambitious and can see which way the wind is blowing, within her party at least.
Its the more principled MPs at the edge who offer the prospect of bringing Boris down - the Lees and Greenings
Refusing to accept you were democratically defeated after pledging to respect the result isn't principled.
Damaging or even sacrificing your career in defence of a long held personal position is principled; chopping and changing your position depending on the views of your party or its leadership is not.
Indeed so if Lee had refused to back a referendum then he would have been very principled.
Holding or backing a position of "we will let the people decide" then switching to "wrong answer, I won't implement any version if that" is not principled.
Very principled if indeed it is truly the wrong answer.
If it was truly the wrong answer why did he ask the question? And why did he promise to honour the public's choice.
It would have been very principled . . . like Ken Clarke did . . . to say the question shouldn't be asked. Clarke held long term principles doing that.
Indeed. Worth also remembering that the referendum was not binding, and also that the document referring to the government implementing the outcome came from the government, not from parliament. You cant hold all MPs responsible for a particular executive's promises. And formally speaking the government that made that promise is no longer with us.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
Mr. Pete, I strongly suspect Boris will be a terrible PM.
That doesn't change the fact he's not far right, and therefore not the atrocious equivalent of Corbyn.
If Boris wins the leadership but Labour ousts Corbyn and replaces him with someone boring but sane, it'd be interesting. But I'll believe the far left has had its grip prised from Labour when it happens.
Yes Corbyn is the personification of the SWP. However in order to achieve his ambition Johnson has jettisoned his 'one nation Tory' baggage; and please excuse the horrific vision, is now in bed with Farage and Trump.
Absolutely.
And why bother with counting extremist angels on the head of a pin, when you can just avoid voting Tory or Labour?
I’m not having those bastards take my vote as consent to extremism of any kind.
I think there's a lot to be inferred from Labour's rebuttal line that the ex-staffers quoted are "disaffected".
From the OED: "Dissatisfied, especially with people in authority or a system of control."
I mean.. No. Shit. Sherlock. If that's all they can throw at them (rather than any evidence of malice or even being mistaken in some way), Labour clearly has very little in the way of defence.
One sided but this is unsurprising given the objective was to highlight the antisemitism problem in Labour.
It succeeded in that objective. Clearly there is a problem and it is not trivial.
I found the programme unsettling but not devastating in the way that, for example, the Michael Jackson doc was. That proved to me that MJ was a paedophile. This did not demonstrate that JC is an antisemite. I still do not think he is.
I was not perturbed by the Seumus Milne stuff (which came over as misleading and smeary) but I was perturbed by the weight of personal testimony of those who have suffered antisemitic abuse within the party.
All told, my voting intention is not affected. My reasons for supporting Labour at the next election are not invalidated by this issue.
However, I am motivated to attend some party events and meetings, and if I were to find an unpleasant anti Jewish racist vibe permeating there, I would have to (and would) think again.
Just how toxic is Labour? Last night on Panorama we learned that its leadership instructed Carter Ruck to send a highly intimidatory legal letter to a former employee who had been so traumatised by his experiences of working for the party that he had contemplated suicide.
Unfortunately a climate has been created where it is impossible even to discuss a documentary without fear of being caught in this Salem witch trial. I have no idea what working for the Labour Party is like but I've worked for several agencies where some of their staff were traumatised by workloads and schedules. To point to someone who couldn't stand the anti semitism and thus contemplated suicide and to suggest this tells us anything other than she has problems is ridiculous.
I'm afraid you're making the mistake Jezziah is making but in reverse. Corbyn's a lousy leader because he's a lousy leader not because he's an anti semite. Because you want to prove him a lousy leader he has to be an anti Semite. Because Corbyn can do no wrong he can't be an anti semite...It's crap.
We need a six month moratorium after which we could discuss with some degree of intelligence the difference between supporting the plight of the Palestinians and being anti semtic
Whether Corbyn is an anti-semite or not* he has presided over a Labour Party within which anti-semites feel emboldened.
Possibly but remember impeachment proceedings only started to be considered against Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton after they had been re elected but the opposition party still controlled Congress
Mr. Pete, Boris is undoubtedly an egotistical, opportunistic creature of ambition and incompetence.
And yet, Corbyn remains an order of magnitude worse. Boris is self-absorbed. The far left is dangerous. Better a jester than a communist.
It is not Corbyn who is ripping up trade agreements with no idea of what will replace them. It is not, therefore, Corbyn who is about to inflict billions of pounds worth of disruption, and lost jobs. Alternatively, it is not Corbyn who will grow the economy by hundreds of billions of pounds, if you take the extreme Brexit optimists' view.
But the point is the most dangerous step in our peacetime history will be taken soon by a Conservative government whose prime minister has not even vouchsafed his plan.
One sided but this is unsurprising given the objective was to highlight the antisemitism problem in Labour.
It succeeded in that objective. Clearly there is a problem and it is not trivial.
I found the programme unsettling but not devastating in the way that, for example, the Michael Jackson doc was. That proved to me that MJ was a paedophile. This did not demonstrate that JC is an antisemite. I still do not think he is.
I was not perturbed by the Seumus Milne stuff (which came over as misleading and smeary) but I was perturbed by the weight of personal testimony of those who have suffered antisemitic abuse within the party.
All told, my voting intention is not affected. My reasons for supporting Labour at the next election are not invalidated by this issue.
However, I am motivated to attend some party events and meetings, and if I were to find an unpleasant anti Jewish racist vibe permeating there, I would have to (and would) think again.
S'OK your vote will have @TheJezziah team hi-fiving. Job done.
Jezziah is the reason why people like me don't just stay in the Labour Party but stay active and fight. We cannot let his kind of scum - and your words this morning demonstrate that you ARE reprehensible scum sir - destroy this party.
The absurd spin machine attack as propagated by him this morning only pushes the voters further away and with it the chances of a Labour government. And that's the betting tip of the morning - we will soon have a Tory party led by a man not fit for public office, a Labour party led by a man not fit for public office, a Brexit party led by a man not fit for public office. We have already seen that voting public are willing to switch as they see fit...
There must however be a tipping point where the party is irrevocably damaged and you'd be doing it and the country a favour by walking away?
Throwing the baby out with the vile anti-semitic, soviet enriched bathwater gives us a generation or two of Boris Johnsons as our PM. It is nonetheless an unpleasant dilemma to overcome.
Vote Lib Dem to hold the balance of power, or even more
By voting LD, Alun Cairns without doubt remains as my MP.
Could be worse. Mine's Priti Patel!
Why we need multi-member constituencies with STV, or at least a Holyrood style system of PR.
Please not AMS. I hate the idea of two classes of MP.
I'm sure the country can live with your irrational dislike.
It’s not irrational. Why have cronyism in the form of party lists when you can have STV who’s only real downside is the time it takes to count votes?
I am still curious what the email leaker's actual agenda was. If associated with Johnson or Hunt presumably it failed; if Farage maybe it worked.
On Panorama, the Labour Party is acting exactly like the Catholic Church and its child abuse problem. Defend the institution whatever it takes and don't care who gets damaged on the way.
That's a good analogy.
It's not as acute or far-reaching as the CC's problem, and much easier fixed. All the Party needs to do is appoint a competent compliance team and back it. I can't see the current leadership doing that so the leadership needs to be changed.
I can see that happening, but maybe not soon.
The problem they have is drawing a line on acceptable/unacceptable behaviour - i.e. defining in specific terms what offences are regarded as serious - given the considerable back history many members have, from the leader down to ordinary members, of making recorded comments that are close to that line.
To take that a bit further, the line has shifted but (obviously) the historical record has not. There is no longer a clear distinction between being anti-Israel and being anti-Jewish. Now there is a vast overlap. Ironically, this protects those who hate Jews as people, because it allows them to hide behind those who are inexplicably obsessed with the Middle East (and have not compiled a list of ME states where it is all right to be gay or left wing or a trades unionist or a critic of the heads of state and government, or even a voter). It is hard to act against anti-Jewish racists if half the big cheeses have a 30-year history of carelessly-worded condemnations of Israel.
Good analysis, if fact the previous head of the complaints department confirmed that i today's climate Corbyn himself would be expelled from the party based on his past actions and statements. That is why they are squirming and why they struggled to accept the standard definitions of AS
She's ambitious and can see which way the wind is blowing, within her party at least.
Its the more principled MPs at the edge who offer the prospect of bringing Boris down - the Lees and Greenings
Refusing to accept you were democratically defeated after pledging to respect the result isn't principled.
Damaging or even sacrificing your career in defence of a long held personal position is principled; chopping and changing your position depending on the views of your party or its leadership is not.
Indeed so if Lee had refused to back a referendum then he would have been very principled.
Holding or backing a position of "we will let the people decide" then switching to "wrong answer, I won't implement any version if that" is not principled.
Very principled if indeed it is truly the wrong answer.
If it was truly the wrong answer why did he ask the question? And why did he promise to honour the public's choice.
It would have been very principled . . . like Ken Clarke did . . . to say the question shouldn't be asked. Clarke held long term principles doing that.
Indeed. Worth also remembering that the referendum was not binding, and also that the document referring to the government implementing the outcome came from the government, not from parliament. You cant hold all MPs responsible for a particular executive's promises. And formally speaking the government that made that promise is no longer with us.
Actually MPs in their personal campaign material to get elected in 2015 pledged to implement the result. Except Ken Clarke didn't as he held to his principles. Ken Clarke has been principled, Lee hasn't.
Mr. JohnL, perhaps. My view is that a second referendum, especially if Boris wins, is still a possible, perhaps probable, outcome.
I'd take a hard economic hit over the far left (or far right) in power. I don't want to re-enact on the UK stage the conduct of the far left Labour Party, or the economic policies of Venezuela, so lauded by Corbyn.
Mr. Walker, Boris is and most likely will remain a self-obsessed imbecile. In a vacuum, yes, that's horrendous. But the alternative isn't a bland politician, it's the far left. It's the sort of people who march under banners of Stalin and think Venezuelan economics are a bloody good idea.
Of the two, Boris is clearly the lesser evil. If Labour ousted Corbyn and elected someone who isn't a creature of the far left... then things would be different. But I'll believe that when I see it.
Mr. Pete, I strongly suspect Boris will be a terrible PM.
That doesn't change the fact he's not far right, and therefore not the atrocious equivalent of Corbyn.
If Boris wins the leadership but Labour ousts Corbyn and replaces him with someone boring but sane, it'd be interesting. But I'll believe the far left has had its grip prised from Labour when it happens.
Yes Corbyn is the personification of the SWP. However in order to achieve his ambition Johnson has jettisoned his 'one nation Tory' baggage; and please excuse the horrific vision, is now in bed with Farage and Trump.
On domestic policy Boris is still 'One nation' on the whole, promising more money for the NHS and police and tax cuts.
He campaigned for Brexit and is committed to deliver it but he is not a Trump puppet like Farage is. Even if he wants a strong relationship with the US and its President he was prepared to criticise Trump as Mayor (while Farage addressed a Trump rally in Mississippi even before Trump won the presidency) and he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 too, Farage has always opposed the Withdrawal Agreement outright and the Brexit Party are committed to No Deal, WTO terms only
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
I am still curious what the email leaker's actual agenda was. If associated with Johnson or Hunt presumably it failed; if Farage maybe it worked.
On Panorama, the Labour Party is acting exactly like the Catholic Church and its child abuse problem. Defend the institution whatever it takes and don't care who gets damaged on the way.
That's a good analogy.
It's not as acute or far-reaching as the CC's problem, and much easier fixed. All the Party needs to do is appoint a competent compliance team and back it. I can't see the current leadership doing that so the leadership needs to be changed.
I can see that happening, but maybe not soon.
The problem they have is drawing a line on acceptable/unacceptable behaviour - i.e. defining in specific terms what offences are regarded as serious - given the considerable back history many members have, from the leader down to ordinary members, of making recorded comments that are close to that line.
To take that a bit further, the line has shifted but (obviously) the historical record has not. There is no longer a clear distinction between being anti-Israel and being anti-Jewish. Now there is a vast overlap. Ironically, this protects those who hate Jews as people, because it allows them to hide behind those who are inexplicably obsessed with the Middle East (and have not compiled a list of ME states where it is all right to be gay or left wing or a trades unionist or a critic of the heads of state and government, or even a voter). It is hard to act against anti-Jewish racists if half the big cheeses have a 30-year history of carelessly-worded condemnations of Israel.
Good analysis, if fact the previous head of the complaints department confirmed that i today's climate Corbyn himself would be expelled from the party based on his past actions and statements. That is why they are squirming and why they struggled to accept the standard definitions of AS
For me the the first half of the programme was meh Pope has balcony stuff we already knew.
It was the connection between Corbyn's associations, the left, and the resulting road to anti-semitism (ie the Jews as oppressors and imperialists) that was most damning. Of course anti-semites will feel at home in Labour given that their leader associated with noted and explicit anti-semites.
A horribly designed poster. Though It was poorly researched and badly presented. Panorama should commission you to make one of their documentaries. You're better at finding the scraps that make a case than any of us on here and you tend to give things the right weight and put them in the right order.
Poorly-written article by three youngsters, but worth struggling through if you’re interested in the future of SLab, which admittedly is a very minority hobby.
‘How Scottish Labour is moving towards constitutional radicalism’ - The party has finally recognised that the country’s political and economic woes flow from the centralised and outmoded British state.
“In terms of devolution, there is a new recognition that Scotland needs more economic as well as political power, increasing the borrowing powers of the Scottish parliament... More importantly, there is now a clear sense that the basic structure of the UK has to change, with the House of Lords abolished and replaced with a Senate of the Regions and Nations, increasing the influence of Britain’s peripheralised areas over the direction of the state and ensuring a greater voice in debates over Britain’s wildly uneven economy. Leonard’s language of “breaking up the centralisation of power” and “sharing power” between nations, regions and communities suggested an even more radical reshaping of British sovereignty itself, dispersing it away from Westminster and across the whole country.”
I would like the HoL replaced by a Senate of Regions and Nations.
I would have each represented by Senators, appointed by devolved governments and county councils in proportion to population. Mostly I would expect these to be chosen from those who had served in elected office, though I would not restrict it to these.
This would give representation to neglected regions, and encourage high calibre applicants to local and devolved governments.
That might have hushed my whiny Cybernat mouth in 2014, but isn't it all a bit too late? Also even before England became gripped by its current madness, was there much evidence that 85% of the UK electorate was even vaguely interested in such constitutional shenanigans? There are years, possibly decades, of Brexit reaction and populism to be worked through before voters can turn their appetites to such thin if nutritious gruel.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
There’s a chap at my work who posts on here and the fact he refuses to tell me his username, even after many alcoholic beverages, is a source of much annoyance.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
His Tory equivalent is HYUFD. They seem to have modelled themselves on Comical Ali
I would like the HoL replaced by a Senate of Regions and Nations.
I would have each represented by Senators, appointed by devolved governments and county councils in proportion to population. Mostly I would expect these to be chosen from those who had served in elected office, though I would not restrict it to these.
This would give representation to neglected regions, and encourage high calibre applicants to local and devolved governments.
I would be very much in favour of that
Me too, but perhaps only for 1/3 of seats. For the rest I would have an independent committee appoint 1/3 from the political ranks, and another 1/3 from the “great and the good” from other walks of life.
In theory I like this idea but in practice I think it would be too convoluted and complex.
Well there’s a detailed thread about how this could work simply - and how you’d move progressively to this from where we are (778 members) - but it might be too niche even for PB.
I like the HoL, and I get annoyed at the idea of its abolition or its replacement by an elected body.
Maybe we should form a committee.
Although I prefer Foxy's idea, I don't mind too much if the senators are elected, as long as it's not by PR. The idea that the HoL should be more representative than the Commons is ridiculous (and dangerous to our democracy) and is born out of desperation with failure to get PR for the Commons.
I prefer Foxy's suggestion to Gardenwalker's because the latter idea smacks of centrism and elitism. Of course Foxy's idea will be criticised too because it's reminiscent of the EU Commissioners, but I don't have a problem with it.
There’s a chap at my work who posts on here and the fact he refuses to tell me his username, even after many alcoholic beverages, is a source of much annoyance.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
His Tory equivalent is HYUFD. They seem to have modelled themselves on Comical Ali
To be fair even Hyufd is a moderate compared to Jezziah
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
I think Plato may well have been paid. I believe she had her Twitter account closed for trolling.
Mr. JohnL, perhaps. My view is that a second referendum, especially if Boris wins, is still a possible, perhaps probable, outcome.
I'd take a hard economic hit over the far left (or far right) in power. I don't want to re-enact on the UK stage the conduct of the far left Labour Party, or the economic policies of Venezuela, so lauded by Corbyn.
Mr. Walker, Boris is and most likely will remain a self-obsessed imbecile. In a vacuum, yes, that's horrendous. But the alternative isn't a bland politician, it's the far left. It's the sort of people who march under banners of Stalin and think Venezuelan economics are a bloody good idea.
Of the two, Boris is clearly the lesser evil. If Labour ousted Corbyn and elected someone who isn't a creature of the far left... then things would be different. But I'll believe that when I see it.
There’s no vacuum. We are in a state of ongoing constitutional crisis. Boris vs Corbyn is just Alien vs Predator.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
It is difficult when you are in a minority of one. Particularly when so many of those shouting him down are on the less cerebral side of the spectrum.
On the basis of that report it might be more accurate to say Trump is Göringesque rather than Hitlerian (except that Göring at least served his country bravely and skilfully during a war).
The only confirmed astroturfer, as they were known in happier times, was Coldstone.
Mr. Walker, I can understand that perspective. That said, I have far greater fears of the far left than an egotistical idiot, and live in a red/blue marginal.
The only confirmed astroturfer, as they were known in happier times, was Coldstone.
Mr. Walker, I can understand that perspective. That said, I have far greater fears of the far left than an egotistical idiot, and live in a red/blue marginal.
@Luckyguy1983 was accused of being a Putin operative quite a bit.
I note he was the first to rush to Trump’s defence over Darrochgate, too.
S'OK your vote will have @TheJezziah team hi-fiving. Job done.
Someone opined quite forcefully on here the other day (in the context of the Tory leadership election but the point is a general one) that when one has the chance to choose between 2 outcomes, one of which is a great deal worse than the other, it is an abdication of responsibility not to do so.
There’s a chap at my work who posts on here and the fact he refuses to tell me his username, even after many alcoholic beverages, is a source of much annoyance.
Many, many years ago someone replied to a post of mine using my first name. I have never found out who he/she was. I had a good idea, but he denied it. So frustrating. At that time I gave very little clue as to who I was here so I knew it was from a very limited pool of suspects.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
It is difficult when you are in a minority of one. Particularly when so many of those shouting him down are on the less cerebral side of the spectrum.
Absolutely. There are simply not enough PB contributors with the intellectual capacity of you, say, to make these exchanges meaningful.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
It's a bit like AA Gill's comment about watching cr*p reality shows - there is no button to press to show you are watching ironically.
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
There are a number of people who post so much and so furiously that one concludes that somebody must be paying them. Surely nobody would waste their lives away otherwise.
Well I am always wary of ascribing someone's sincerely held views to a bot or as being paid for but @TheJezziah cheapens his contributions by being so one-eyed.
His Tory equivalent is HYUFD. They seem to have modelled themselves on Comical Ali
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
I would vote for my Labour MP on a personal and political level but I can't dot so without it being interpreted as an endorsement of Corbyn so I won't be doing it. I was a member until soon after Ed went and for the first time in my life I didn't vote in 2017, next time it will be LD.
Just how toxic is Labour? Last night on Panorama we learned that its leadership instructed Carter Ruck to send a highly intimidatory legal letter to a former employee who had been so traumatised by his experiences of working for the party that he had contemplated suicide.
Unfortunately a climate has been created where it is impossible even to discuss a documentary without fear of being caught in this Salem witch trial. I have no idea what working for the Labour Party is like but I've worked for several agencies where some of their staff were traumatised by workloads and schedules. To point to someone who couldn't stand the anti semitism and thus contemplated suicide and to suggest this tells us anything other than she has problems is ridiculous.
I'm afraid you're making the mistake Jezziah is making but in reverse. Corbyn's a lousy leader because he's a lousy leader not because he's an anti semite. Because you want to prove him a lousy leader he has to be an anti Semite. Because Corbyn can do no wrong he can't be an anti semite...It's crap.
We need a six month moratorium after which we could discuss with some degree of intelligence the difference between supporting the plight of the Palestinians and being anti semtic
Corbyn is a lousy leader because he’s a lousy leader, I agree. He’s also spent decades standing in solidarity with anti-Semites, and has opened the floodgates to them joining the Labour party. Beyond that, as an organisation which esposes solidarity and workers’ rights as its central creed, Labour should not have a work culture that causes employees to have breakdown and to contemplate suicide. Employees that do have mental health issues should be treated sympathetically, not castigated. Labour is not an advertising agency.
>There’s a chap at my work who posts on here and the fact he refuses to tell me his username, even after many alcoholic beverages, is a source of much annoyance.
>There’s a chap at my work who posts on here and the fact he refuses to tell me his username, even after many alcoholic beverages, is a source of much annoyance.
S'OK your vote will have @TheJezziah team hi-fiving. Job done.
Someone opined quite forcefully on here the other day (in the context of the Tory leadership election but the point is a general one) that when one has the chance to choose between 2 outcomes, one of which is a great deal worse than the other, it is an abdication of responsibility not to do so.
It was you.
ZING!!
Absolutely. But you are comparing apples with chalk.
Big G, in that instance, had a vote for one of two options and chose to abnegate his responsibility to vote.
You also have a choice. You can vote for Labour, Conservative, the LibDems, Greens, SNP (if you're up there oh wait you're in Hampstead), Screaming Lord Sutch, why you can even form your own party and vote for it.
Of all those options, you are choosing to vote for the party presided over by an anti-semite and within which anti-semitism has flourished.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
I would vote for my Labour MP on a personal and political level but I can't dot so without it being interpreted as an endorsement of Corbyn so I won't be doing it. I was a member until soon after Ed went and for the first time in my life I didn't vote in 2017, next time it will be LD.
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Does that make him complicit in racism or is he just supporting the rosette?
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Does that make him complicit in racism or is he just supporting the rosette?
I think you are asking the wrong party leadership this morning, especially given Howard's religious background
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Does that make him complicit in racism or is he just supporting the rosette?
I think you are asking the wrong party leadership this morning, especially given Howard's religious background
For some unfathomable reason Howard has long been a particular target of the left.
The Democrats have a thirst for blood so David Herdson's idea doesn't seem particularly improbable to me. It would be reminiscent of Oliver Cromwell's bones being exhumed and his head impaled on a spike for treason.
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Does that make him complicit in racism or is he just supporting the rosette?
I think you are asking the wrong party leadership this morning, especially given Howard's religious background
Double standards for Tories? Who'd have thunk it? The blue team is about to vote in a new leader who is ... ah, but that's different.
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Does that make him complicit in racism or is he just supporting the rosette?
I think you are asking the wrong party leadership this morning, especially given Howard's religious background
Poorly-written article by three youngsters, but worth struggling through if you’re interested in the future of SLab, which admittedly is a very minority hobby.
‘How Scottish Labour is moving towards constitutional radicalism’ - The party has finally recognised that the country’s political and economic woes flow from the centralised and outmoded British state.
“In terms of devolution, there is a new recognition that Scotland needs more economic as well as political power, increasing the borrowing powers of the Scottish parliament... More importantly, there is now a clear sense that the basic structure of the UK has to change, with the House of Lords abolished and replaced with a Senate of the Regions and Nations, increasing the influence of Britain’s peripheralised areas over the direction of the state and ensuring a greater voice in debates over Britain’s wildly uneven economy. Leonard’s language of “breaking up the centralisation of power” and “sharing power” between nations, regions and communities suggested an even more radical reshaping of British sovereignty itself, dispersing it away from Westminster and across the whole country.”
I would like the HoL replaced by a Senate of Regions and Nations.
I would have each represented by Senators, appointed by devolved governments and county councils in proportion to population. Mostly I would expect these to be chosen from those who had served in elected office, though I would not restrict it to these.
This would give representation to neglected regions, and encourage high calibre applicants to local and devolved governments.
I would be very much in favour of that
Me too, but perhaps only for 1/3 of seats. For the rest I would have an independent committee appoint 1/3 from the political ranks, and another 1/3 from the “great and the good” from other walks of life.
so jobs for the boys rather than power to the people
chumtastic
I agree; reinforcing the existing super-quango. One thing I'd like to explore in a Senate is how you'd minimize Party influence/whipping. In (my) ideal world it would be at one step removed from Party politics. This would clearly have to be systemic from the way in which nomination and appointment is managed through to the actual term of office. Not sure how to achieve that though!
Is she - and all the other Labour MPs busy wringing their hands today - going to do something? Or are sending Tweets the limit of what they can actually be arsed to do?
Michael Howard hasn’t been the same since he suggested declaring war on Spain.
Something of the shite, indeed.
Michael Howard was a very effective Leader of the Opposition though and gained over 30 Labour seats in 2005, and gave Cameron a platform to build in in 2010.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
Does that make him complicit in racism or is he just supporting the rosette?
I think you are asking the wrong party leadership this morning, especially given Howard's religious background
The Tories will likely be on for a big majority if they're winning Bassetlaw, and I think the seat is a likely Labour hold (Though the Brexit party might have a sniff). Mann is fine but I really can't support the current Labour leadership.
Even though I think an orderly Brexit should go ahead at this point in time I'm tilting toward the Lib Dems as leaving without a deal wouldn't with push and shove be a good idea. I'll admit if I was in a key marginal like last time I'd likely vote to keep Corbyn out - but I don't think I am, least not for the Conservatives anyway.
Absolutely. But you are comparing apples with chalk.
Big G, in that instance, had a vote for one of two options and chose to abnegate his responsibility to vote.
You also have a choice. You can vote for Labour, Conservative, the LibDems, Greens, SNP (if you're up there oh wait you're in Hampstead), Screaming Lord Sutch, why you can even form your own party and vote for it.
Of all those options, you are choosing to vote for the party presided over by an anti-semite and within which anti-semitism has flourished.
I would put it slightly differently and as follows -
I am choosing to vote for a party whose policies I strongly support, relative to all the others, in the certain knowledge that if I don't, and if enough people of similar mind to me don't, that given the electoral calculus there is a very strong chance indeed of getting a Boris Johnson led Tory government that I will find so intolerable that I might need to leave Hampstead and take up residence in a remote Cornish cottage with no TV and no WiFi.
The Aussie national anthem is so much better than ours.
Have you gone native ? OK I'll admit I enjoy the Italian and.. whisper it quietly the US and French ones too... Ours on any objective level isn't great.
And yet Labour then went on to elect Ed Miliband. Funny that.
Yes because at that time there were more sensible Labour types in the party than raging anti-semites.
To be fair, even now anti-semiles are in a small minority in the Labour Party. The problem is that they are a minority in close proximity to the leadership.
When it comes to election time, will sane Labour types be campaigning for Corbyn to be PM?
No but for some of us, the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson is equally unpalateable.
Me too.
This. At an election I will be campaigning for the re-election of my superb MP. My party leader is a disgrace not fit for office. The new Tory leader to be is a disgrace not fit for office. Farage doubly so not fit for office. And yet here we are
I would vote for my Labour MP on a personal and political level but I can't dot so without it being interpreted as an endorsement of Corbyn so I won't be doing it. I was a member until soon after Ed went and for the first time in my life I didn't vote in 2017, next time it will be LD.
Ditto. But it’s a Sophie’s Choice. Voting LD will help the Tories win my constituency and so help Boris Johnson, who is just as complicit in racism as Jeremy Corbyn.
Comments
Holding or backing a position of "we will let the people decide" then switching to "wrong answer, I won't implement any version if that" is not principled.
https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1149229536258777093
https://twitter.com/TheDudeDJ/status/1149231163925508102
I think on one hand, it's more subtle: just assuming everyone's in it for the cause so we don't have to worry about HR, process, IT support, compliance or any of the other things which well-run organisations have.
And on the other, it's a far simpler lack of resources: organisations which are short of them to start with and are acutely aware that their members and supporters expect them to put every last penny into the cause rather than "administration".
Having experienced (and managed in) a range of working environments from v.small commercial to large public sector, I would definitely say there's a sweet spot to be found for effective running of an organisation. (Culture is obvs also important.. and clearly lacking in this case).
https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1149232574339960832
I'm afraid you're making the mistake Jezziah is making but in reverse. Corbyn's a lousy leader because he's a lousy leader not because he's an anti semite. Because you want to prove him a lousy leader he has to be an anti Semite. Because Corbyn can do no wrong he can't be an anti semite...It's crap.
We need a six month moratorium after which we could discuss with some degree of intelligence the difference between supporting the plight of the Palestinians and being anti semtic
It would have been very principled . . . like Ken Clarke did . . . to say the question shouldn't be asked. Clarke held long term principles doing that.
And yet, Corbyn remains an order of magnitude worse. Boris is self-absorbed. The far left is dangerous. Better a jester than a communist.
https://twitter.com/HughSykes/status/1149081701538304000
Same with your vote. Every vote that Lab gets at the next election gives succour to people like @TheJezziah. If of course he is not a Labour Party special projects team.
And why bother with counting extremist angels on the head of a pin, when you can just avoid voting Tory or Labour?
I’m not having those bastards take my vote as consent to extremism of any kind.
From the OED: "Dissatisfied, especially with people in authority or a system of control."
I mean.. No. Shit. Sherlock. If that's all they can throw at them (rather than any evidence of malice or even being mistaken in some way), Labour clearly has very little in the way of defence.
One sided but this is unsurprising given the objective was to highlight the antisemitism problem in Labour.
It succeeded in that objective. Clearly there is a problem and it is not trivial.
I found the programme unsettling but not devastating in the way that, for example, the Michael Jackson doc was. That proved to me that MJ was a paedophile. This did not demonstrate that JC is an antisemite. I still do not think he is.
I was not perturbed by the Seumus Milne stuff (which came over as misleading and smeary) but I was perturbed by the weight of personal testimony of those who have suffered antisemitic abuse within the party.
All told, my voting intention is not affected. My reasons for supporting Labour at the next election are not invalidated by this issue.
However, I am motivated to attend some party events and meetings, and if I were to find an unpleasant anti Jewish racist vibe permeating there, I would have to (and would) think again.
*he is
But the point is the most dangerous step in our peacetime history will be taken soon by a Conservative government whose prime minister has not even vouchsafed his plan.
I'd take a hard economic hit over the far left (or far right) in power. I don't want to re-enact on the UK stage the conduct of the far left Labour Party, or the economic policies of Venezuela, so lauded by Corbyn.
Mr. Walker, Boris is and most likely will remain a self-obsessed imbecile. In a vacuum, yes, that's horrendous. But the alternative isn't a bland politician, it's the far left. It's the sort of people who march under banners of Stalin and think Venezuelan economics are a bloody good idea.
Of the two, Boris is clearly the lesser evil. If Labour ousted Corbyn and elected someone who isn't a creature of the far left... then things would be different. But I'll believe that when I see it.
He campaigned for Brexit and is committed to deliver it but he is not a Trump puppet like Farage is. Even if he wants a strong relationship with the US and its President he was prepared to criticise Trump as Mayor (while Farage addressed a Trump rally in Mississippi even before Trump won the presidency) and he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 too, Farage has always opposed the Withdrawal Agreement outright and the Brexit Party are committed to No Deal, WTO terms only
It was the connection between Corbyn's associations, the left, and the resulting road to anti-semitism (ie the Jews as oppressors and imperialists) that was most damning. Of course anti-semites will feel at home in Labour given that their leader associated with noted and explicit anti-semites.
I can only conclude that he is @TheJezziah.
Although I prefer Foxy's idea, I don't mind too much if the senators are elected, as long as it's not by PR. The idea that the HoL should be more representative than the Commons is ridiculous (and dangerous to our democracy) and is born out of desperation with failure to get PR for the Commons.
I prefer Foxy's suggestion to Gardenwalker's because the latter idea smacks of centrism and elitism. Of course Foxy's idea will be criticised too because it's reminiscent of the EU Commissioners, but I don't have a problem with it.
Don't tell Janice.
We are in a state of ongoing constitutional crisis. Boris vs Corbyn is just Alien vs Predator.
Vote LD. Flush them both back into the sewer.
The only confirmed astroturfer, as they were known in happier times, was Coldstone.
Mr. Walker, I can understand that perspective. That said, I have far greater fears of the far left than an egotistical idiot, and live in a red/blue marginal.
And its not cronyism. If you don't like a candidate on the party list, withhold your vote from the party.
I note he was the first to rush to Trump’s defence over Darrochgate, too.
It was you.
>I can only conclude that he is @TheJezziah.
Sounds like an enterprising chap who likes to be bought lots of drinks.
Absolutely. But you are comparing apples with chalk.
Big G, in that instance, had a vote for one of two options and chose to abnegate his responsibility to vote.
You also have a choice. You can vote for Labour, Conservative, the LibDems, Greens, SNP (if you're up there oh wait you're in Hampstead), Screaming Lord Sutch, why you can even form your own party and vote for it.
Of all those options, you are choosing to vote for the party presided over by an anti-semite and within which anti-semitism has flourished.
Something of the shite, indeed.
His Today interview suggested he was now backing Boris
https://twitter.com/IrelandTAL32/status/1149016200774606854
https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-criticised-for-anti-semitic-howard-poster-488998.html
https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-criticised-for-anti-semitic-howard-poster-488998.html
Even though I think an orderly Brexit should go ahead at this point in time I'm tilting toward the Lib Dems as leaving without a deal wouldn't with push and shove be a good idea. I'll admit if I was in a key marginal like last time I'd likely vote to keep Corbyn out - but I don't think I am, least not for the Conservatives anyway.
Much to consider before the next election anyway.
I am choosing to vote for a party whose policies I strongly support, relative to all the others, in the certain knowledge that if I don't, and if enough people of similar mind to me don't, that given the electoral calculus there is a very strong chance indeed of getting a Boris Johnson led Tory government that I will find so intolerable that I might need to leave Hampstead and take up residence in a remote Cornish cottage with no TV and no WiFi.
But lets put aside political differences and concentrate on the biggest rivalry of all. Lets defeat the convicts.
OK I'll admit I enjoy the Italian and.. whisper it quietly the US and French ones too... Ours on any objective level isn't great.