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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s Falkirk problems seem to be going over many voters

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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2013
    @Roger - We read it last week - where is she working now? A museum or a supermarket?
  • SLAB and the Unions. Part MCXVII

    'GMB backed a No vote - then asked members for their indyref views'

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/gmb-backed-a-no-vote-then-asked-members-for-their-views-questions-over-unio.22654702
  • Cheers for that post, Mr. P.

    Alas, the fruits of my labour are not yet considered juicy enough to be part of such a war.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Carola said:

    Poor UKIP supporters - the world is just so mean!

    UKIP (OA)
    In past month have you seen a bicycle go through a red light:
    Net yes: +23 (+1)

    Generally, how common is it for cyclists to go through red lights:
    Net common: +66 (+38)

    Have you cycled through a red light (small base)
    Net no: +96 (+62)

    Should cyclists who go thru red be prosecuted:
    Net yes: +84 (+66)

    What are the chances of cyclists going through red lights just to annoy UKIP supporters?

    And how can the cyclists tell?

    Funnily enough this just popped up in my timeline:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


    I am a cyclist myself, but can't have people that jump the lights. Saw two do so in Hove on Thursday
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    Next idea for Ed Miliband: consumer goods are too expensive, so seize them and sell them cheaply.

    After all, it works in Venezuela...

    Venezuela President Closes Chain Store - Declares Everything Must Go

  • malcolmg said:
    Terrific! Thanks Malcolm.

    National Collective are a real asset to the Yes campaign. .
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    I agree with Ed Miliband; payday lenders should not be allowed to advertise on children's TV.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    edited November 2013
    F1: possibly intriguing news. It's via Twitter, so treat with caution.

    Apparently Raikkonen's going to miss the final 2 races. Not over payment, but over back problems (and surgery to remedy the situation). If so, we could (perhaps) see Hulkenberg move early, or Valsecchi[sp], the Lotus reserve driver, have a go.

    If Hulkenberg's going to Lotus next year they may well prefer to get him in the car a bit earlier. It'll help iron out teething problems and get him used to the team, and vice versa, during this phony war period.

    Edited extra bit: this has been unofficially confirmed by me checking Betfair for odds and finding it's impossible to lay Raikkonen for just about everything. The only possible advantageous bet is 1.4 for Hamilton to be top 3, but this does require him to score 8 more points. Probably worth it, but low odds and it'll take a few weeks.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited November 2013



    That same Scottish subsample shows an 11% lead by LAB over SNP.

    If it was grim for LAB north of the border then you'd think that it would show up from the same group of people.

    This is, of course, the point I am making.

    Their lead in 2010 was 22-23 points. They're averaging just over 10 over the last 10 days.

    Scope for some losses?
    And please remember when looking at YouGov's Scottish sub-samples that their weightings are all goofy, heavily downweighting SNP respondents.

    If you want more reliable Scottish sub-samples look at the other pollsters.

    Or, of course, you could simply look at the last full-sample Scottish Westminster VI poll, Lord Ashcroft's:

    LAB 40% (-2)
    SNP 31% (+11)
    CON 18% (+1)
    LIBDEM 6% (-13)
    UKIP 2% (+1)

    Sample: 1,039 adults in Scotland were interviewed by telephone between 4 and 8 October 2013.
    +/- change from UK GE 2010

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8320
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    I agree with Ed Miliband; payday lenders should not be allowed to advertise on children's TV.

    It's a fair point for someone to complain about, but is it really Leader of the Opposition material?
  • I agree with Ed Miliband; payday lenders should not be allowed to advertise on children's TV.

    I think that all advertising of any sort whatsoever should be banned from children's TV.
  • If you are going to ban ads on kids tv I would ban toy advertisments first. Pay day ads go over their heads but they want toys!
  • Next said:

    I agree with Ed Miliband; payday lenders should not be allowed to advertise on children's TV.

    It's a fair point for someone to complain about, but is it really Leader of the Opposition material?
    Yes. Of course it is.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @Alanbrooke.

    Thank goodness you're back! A bit of humour again. The PBTories haven't been able to raise a smile since Labour promoted a 'Tristram' to their front bench
  • malcolmg said:

    Bollocks

    From 346 : The directive contains an important exclusion in that cooperative programmes with an R&D phase
    conducted by at least two member states are excluded from the directive

    A couple of questions:

    Why would Scotland become a junior partner in the T26 ASW platform? Apart from trying to keep Selex in Pentlandshire it has no material or political requirement.

    Why would England not seek to repatriate stolen jobs? Scotland's defence budget is marked at £2.8 billion (English-equiv, or about £3.2 billion Groats). As Denmark undertakes shipbuilding in Poland, Ireland in Devon and Norway spends 50% more than the UK per-capita, how are the Clyde's shipyards to be funded?

    I think Spreadsheet Phil has pulled a blinder: Pay an extra £100 million (above what Gormless has already pished-against-the-wall on Scottish shipbuilding) and if they feck-orf no T26 contract.* If they get built in Pusan and out-fitted in Portsmouth then the Royal Navy may see eighteen of the blighters...!

    * Steel-cut is due in 2015. Whoops....
  • in fact ban payday loan ads from adult tele and toy ads from kids tele and then neither evil reach their target audience!
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    On topic

    Power of polling vs PB Tory obsessions. Perhaps now Carlotta and the other obsessives will talk about something else.
  • I wonder if the thread header survey had been phrased 'how close hove you been following the grangemouth problems ?' the result may have been more interest in it
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Most prescient article in the Sunday Times is not that ones about the corruption in Unite and the serious questions about Ed's judgement nor about the Co op planning to stop their donations to Labour.


    It's the demolition job on the argument that this is a credit fuelled boom -as those that have been following equity withdrawal figures have noticed..

    http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/001951.html#more
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699



    That same Scottish subsample shows an 11% lead by LAB over SNP.

    If it was grim for LAB north of the border then you'd think that it would show up from the same group of people.

    This is, of course, the point I am making.

    Their lead in 2010 was 22-23 points. They're averaging just over 10 over the last 10 days.

    Scope for some losses?
    And please remember when looking at YouGov's Scottish sub-samples that their weightings are all goofy, heavily downweighting SNP respondents.

    If you want more reliable Scottish sub-samples look at the other pollsters.

    Or, of course, you could simply look at the last full-sample Scottish Westminster VI poll, Lord Ashcroft's:

    LAB 40% (-2)
    SNP 31% (+11)
    CON 18% (+1)
    LIBDEM 6% (-13)
    UKIP 2% (+1)

    Sample: 1,039 adults in Scotland were interviewed by telephone between 4 and 8 October 2013.
    +/- change from UK GE 2010

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8320
    Whilst the Ashcroft megapoll for Scotland is well worth study , there are serious flaws with the smaller October poll as according to the figures 27 % of the sample voted SNP in the 2010 GE both before and after weighting .
  • Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    I think Carlotta makes up for the rest of us who have for one reason or another let this story pass us by.

    Some of us are concerned about the fate of the UK - and seeing the largest (by orders of magnitude) pro-UK party in Scotland shoot itself in the foot 10 months out from the referendum is causing concern.....of course, from a purely selfish point of view, the departure of Scotland from the Union would make the Conservatives job a lot easier in rUK.....

    Why would what is happening in Falkirk make someone vote for independence if they are otherwise in favour of the union? Is there any polling evidence that it has shifted opinions in favour of separation?

    I think it could damage the pro-Union cause if Scots see them as corrupt.
    Glad to see that someone outwith Scotland "gets it".

    The festering boil of poison that is the Scottish Labour Party is going to infect the wider Better Together outfit. Falkirk is just the tip of the iceberg.

  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    I agree with the criticism of IDS. Yet another example of the incompetence of his "welfare reforms" was the Coalition's decision to cut mobility allowance for those in residential care. This was reversed when the Coalition discovered that people in residential care didn't spend all their time in residence but actually went out and so needed their mobility allowance.
    "Light weight" is too kind a description of him.
  • Mr. Dickson, if your side won the referendum, how do you see Scottish internal politics realigning? Would Labour bounce back, or would the damage done to them over Falkirk be longer lasting/more serious?
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    Next said:

    I agree with Ed Miliband; payday lenders should not be allowed to advertise on children's TV.

    It's a fair point for someone to complain about, but is it really Leader of the Opposition material?
    Yes. Of course it is.
    An quick Yes, without any reasoning or logic?

    It's not the IndyRef, you know...


  • That same Scottish subsample shows an 11% lead by LAB over SNP.

    If it was grim for LAB north of the border then you'd think that it would show up from the same group of people.

    This is, of course, the point I am making.

    Their lead in 2010 was 22-23 points. They're averaging just over 10 over the last 10 days.

    Scope for some losses?
    And please remember when looking at YouGov's Scottish sub-samples that their weightings are all goofy, heavily downweighting SNP respondents.

    If you want more reliable Scottish sub-samples look at the other pollsters.

    Or, of course, you could simply look at the last full-sample Scottish Westminster VI poll, Lord Ashcroft's:

    LAB 40% (-2)
    SNP 31% (+11)
    CON 18% (+1)
    LIBDEM 6% (-13)
    UKIP 2% (+1)

    Sample: 1,039 adults in Scotland were interviewed by telephone between 4 and 8 October 2013.
    +/- change from UK GE 2010

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8320
    Whilst the Ashcroft megapoll for Scotland is well worth study , there are serious flaws with the smaller October poll as according to the figures 27 % of the sample voted SNP in the 2010 GE both before and after weighting .
    Mark Senior says that an old poll showing the SNP on 23% is sound whereas a new poll showing the SNP on 31% is flawed.

    Meanwhile, in other news, the Pope is revealed to be a Roman Catholic.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @JJ

    "I agree with Ed Miliband; payday lenders should not be allowed to advertise on children's TV."

    This made me LOL!

    They say that 50% of all TV advertising is a waste of money because the advertiser can't target the right people '

    In this instance i don't think they'd have a problem!
  • Mr. Dickson, if your side won the referendum, how do you see Scottish internal politics realigning? Would Labour bounce back, or would the damage done to them over Falkirk be longer lasting/more serious?

    Got to pick up the wife and bairn from the station. Your question merits an essay in reply, so I cannot do it justice.

    To keep it tight and brief, if you want to know how parliamentary politics will look post-independence, look to Scandinavia. PR in combination with compassionate self-interest produces attractive, stable political cultures.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Can someone tell me what exactly is going on in Falkirk ? Is the football team in trouble ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    Forgive me using these two paragraphs of Nick Cohen's piece but for Tories who still don't know why so many have low opinion of them and don't believe Christian Barnard could have found a heart if he'd spent a lifetime looking-this is worth reading. There are worse cases but this is so archetypally Tory it's worth hearing.........

    "As Duncan Smith realised he was losing the case, he went on the BBC to denounce Cait Reilly, one of the claimants who was challenging him in court. Despite receiving benefits, the 24-year old had refused to work for nothing in Poundland, he claimed. She was part of "a group of people out there who think they are too good for this kind of stuff". A "job snob", in other words; a scrounger, who was not prepared to get off her backside and put in the hours necessary to secure remunerative employment.

    If he had checked his facts, a task that seems beyond him, Duncan Smith would have discovered that Ms Reilly had been a volunteer at a Birmingham museum. She worked there gratis because she hoped one day to be taken on by a museum or gallery. Reilly objected to Duncan Smith's minions taking her out of the museum and sending her to Poundland instead because they were stopping her fulfilling her ambition for no reason at all."

    Roger, how long should the taxpayer have funded Cait's ambition to get into her chosen sector? A preiod of time, yes, but should we have funded her volunteering for 1 year? Or 2? Or 3? The museum sector is hideously competitive - we have 3 interns + 1 "up and coming" curator each year. We pay them - but that's out of choice. There would be plenty of people willing to work for free.

    Unfortunately a lot of people have to make compromises and don't get to work in their chosen field. How long should we have funded Cait Reilly's ambition for?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699



    That same Scottish subsample shows an 11% lead by LAB over SNP.

    If it was grim for LAB north of the border then you'd think that it would show up from the same group of people.

    This is, of course, the point I am making.

    Their lead in 2010 was 22-23 points. They're averaging just over 10 over the last 10 days.

    Scope for some losses?
    And please remember when looking at YouGov's Scottish sub-samples that their weightings are all goofy, heavily downweighting SNP respondents.

    If you want more reliable Scottish sub-samples look at the other pollsters.

    Or, of course, you could simply look at the last full-sample Scottish Westminster VI poll, Lord Ashcroft's:

    LAB 40% (-2)
    SNP 31% (+11)
    CON 18% (+1)
    LIBDEM 6% (-13)
    UKIP 2% (+1)

    Sample: 1,039 adults in Scotland were interviewed by telephone between 4 and 8 October 2013.
    +/- change from UK GE 2010

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8320
    Whilst the Ashcroft megapoll for Scotland is well worth study , there are serious flaws with the smaller October poll as according to the figures 27 % of the sample voted SNP in the 2010 GE both before and after weighting .
    Mark Senior says that an old poll showing the SNP on 23% is sound whereas a new poll showing the SNP on 31% is flawed.

    Meanwhile, in other news, the Pope is revealed to be a Roman Catholic.
    Stuart Dickson ignores a 7,000 odd sample poll with SNP at 23% and 19% of the sample having voted SNP in 2010 in favour of a 1,000 odd sample poll with the SNP at 31% and 27% having voted SNP in 2010 . Self delusion rules .
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    isam said:

    Carola said:

    Poor UKIP supporters - the world is just so mean!

    UKIP (OA)
    In past month have you seen a bicycle go through a red light:
    Net yes: +23 (+1)

    Generally, how common is it for cyclists to go through red lights:
    Net common: +66 (+38)

    Have you cycled through a red light (small base)
    Net no: +96 (+62)

    Should cyclists who go thru red be prosecuted:
    Net yes: +84 (+66)

    What are the chances of cyclists going through red lights just to annoy UKIP supporters?

    And how can the cyclists tell?

    Funnily enough this just popped up in my timeline:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


    I am a cyclist myself, but can't have people that jump the lights. Saw two do so in Hove on Thursday
    Cyclists or motorists?

    Cyclists do it to avoid being crushed by vehicles turning left.
  • @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing, when she was building experience and her credentials at Brum Library? And why go on TV and tell fibs about her? Just like IDS's manipulation of stats, it's not a very Christian thing to do.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    FPT @SeanT

    "I have an image of the Head Death of the universe, when all matter and energy has been finally dispersed into a bleak, cold, entropic void of nothingness..."

    If you haven't seen Death in Supernatural - you're missing a real treat as a character with a superb theme tune.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1EzU9sLQ6I

    or him in character

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhgHjswb1cw - eating pizza

  • Bobajob said:

    On topic

    Power of polling vs PB Tory obsessions. Perhaps now Carlotta and the other obsessives will talk about something else.

    You do realise that if Scotland votes for independence, Labour's job in rUK will be a lot tougher, don't you?

    Ah, London Labour, blasé, indifferent and complacent.....but then you didn't read about how Scots view this, did you?
  • @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.
  • The polling recipients are right to see the Falkirk issue as a side show. It is the job of Cameron to answer the questions put to him at PMQs not to be constantly seen as hysterical over the UNITE issue. Ed. Miliband asks six questions a week to a weak PM. none of them are ever answered by the PM. PMQs is like Flash Gordon of Britain v. Flash Harry of Witney. Keep wearing him down Ed. the crimson tide will erupt and the cracks in this Government will emerge as fissures announcing the end of this horrific administration.

  • Bobajob said:

    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.

    And yet, we're still talking about it....the press, TV, pollsters.....odd for a 'non-story' don't you think?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited November 2013
    "Given the coverage this is receiving this strikes me as a high proportion."

    What coverage this story is getting?

    On the nightly news it has been 5 minutes of the unmentionable court case, 5 minutes of some sort of cost of living issue, 5 minutes of closing down ship yards etc....

    The only time this story got any mention in a real sustained part of the main headline new agenda was when Grangemouth was going to get shut down. The Daily Mail and Times have front pages on this, but the rest of the media (print and tv) it has been reported as a side show, something or other about Unions, Ed says we investigated, mumble mumble, next story.

    So given all that I am not in the least surprised of the poll findings.
  • Bobajob said:

    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.

    Do you have inside information on what the voters think, or will be told to think?

    Or perhaps they'll have the thinking done on their behalf?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.

    Do you have inside information on what the voters think, or will be told to think?

    Or perhaps they'll have the thinking done on their behalf?
    I have the polling.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    edited November 2013
    Falkirk worries me as a unionist because it paints a picture of a corrupt, undemocratic Scottish Labour party indifferent to Scotland's interests where the decisions are made south of the border. This gives the SNP a lot of amuninition against Labour and the argument that Labour itself would be better off in an independent Scotland. Labour supporters are the key demographic in the referendum.


    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.

    And yet, we're still talking about it....the press, TV, pollsters.....odd for a 'non-story' don't you think?

    YOU are still talking about it. I haven't heard a single person bring it up in normal conversation.
    Get over it.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it? I'd be more interested in hiring someone who had gained skills at a major library than subsidising the business of a throwaway goods retailer under duress.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @Charles

    "Roger, how long should the taxpayer have funded Cait's ambition to get into her chosen sector?"

    As long as she needs. No sane person makes the choice to go on the dole. It just doesn't pay enough. The welfare state is there to support people like Cait through the bad times and when she's in work her taxes will repay the compliment to someone else. it's what civilized societies do.
  • @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    She already had retail experience. And she had shown considerable initiative in organising her own job placement in order to develop experience in a new area, so widening her potential job options. Instead of congratulating her, IDS went on national television to smear her. Has he ever apologised?

  • Bobajob said:

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it?
    It was work experience.

    She has work experience in a museum, and in a supermarket.

    She has a job in a supermarket.

  • Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.

    And yet, we're still talking about it....the press, TV, pollsters.....odd for a 'non-story' don't you think?

    Get over it.
    Thus speaks London Labour.

    Telling the Scots what to do always works......
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Ninoinoz said:

    isam said:

    Carola said:

    Poor UKIP supporters - the world is just so mean!

    UKIP (OA)
    In past month have you seen a bicycle go through a red light:
    Net yes: +23 (+1)

    Generally, how common is it for cyclists to go through red lights:
    Net common: +66 (+38)

    Have you cycled through a red light (small base)
    Net no: +96 (+62)

    Should cyclists who go thru red be prosecuted:
    Net yes: +84 (+66)

    What are the chances of cyclists going through red lights just to annoy UKIP supporters?

    And how can the cyclists tell?

    Funnily enough this just popped up in my timeline:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


    I am a cyclist myself, but can't have people that jump the lights. Saw two do so in Hove on Thursday
    Cyclists or motorists?

    Cyclists do it to avoid being crushed by vehicles turning left.
    Exactly right. This pathetic "piano string cyclists" stuff has to stop. The quality of driving in London is dire - cars that hug the curve and tailgate cyclists are all too common. We need to take lots of bits of roads and turn them into bespoke, self contained cycle lanes. Most motorists are entirely useless at sharing the road with vehicles smaller and weaker than them.
  • DavidL said:

    Falkirk worries me as a unionist because it paints a picture of a corrupt, undemocratic Scottish Labour party indifferent to Scotland's interests where the decisions are made south of the border. This gives the SNP a lot of amuninition against Labour and the argument that Labour itself would be better off in an independent Scotland. Labour supporters are the key demographic in the referendum.


    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    Maybe the Tories should frame it in that way instead of seeking to pursue their clearly ineffective reds under the bed, Ed is a puppet line.

  • DavidL said:

    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    I'm not sure whether our Labour friends are obtuse or wilfully blind.....they should remember where the 'English' Civil war started....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    DavidL said:

    Falkirk worries me as a unionist because it paints a picture of a corrupt, undemocratic Scottish Labour party indifferent to Scotland's interests where the decisions are made south of the border. This gives the SNP a lot of amuninition against Labour and the argument that Labour itself would be better off in an independent Scotland. Labour supporters are the key demographic in the referendum.


    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    Maybe the Tories should frame it in that way instead of seeking to pursue their clearly ineffective reds under the bed, Ed is a puppet line.

    Yes they should. This is too important to give an under pressure PM a get out line at PMQs.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it?
    It was work experience.

    She has work experience in a museum, and in a supermarket.

    She has a job in a supermarket.

    Which was due to her working as a slave for Poundland? Evidence?
  • The average voter doesn't care about Falkirk, but Labour activists aren't average voters. What do they think of the affair?

    If it resonates with their own concerns about party governance (not necessarily resentment of union influence) it may make them a little less willing to pound the pavement, blunting the Labour campaign effort. On the other hand, Labour activists may be so fired up by hatred of the Tories that problems in one constituency don't bother them.

    Have any studies been done on how poor party morale affects the vote? Are there any polls that try to measure activist morale?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Roger said:

    @Charles

    "Roger, how long should the taxpayer have funded Cait's ambition to get into her chosen sector?"

    As long as she needs. No sane person makes the choice to go on the dole. It just doesn't pay enough. The welfare state is there to support people like Cait through the bad times and when she's in work her taxes will repay the compliment to someone else. it's what civilized societies do.

    Communist.
  • DavidL said:

    Falkirk worries me as a unionist because it paints a picture of a corrupt, undemocratic Scottish Labour party indifferent to Scotland's interests where the decisions are made south of the border. This gives the SNP a lot of amuninition against Labour and the argument that Labour itself would be better off in an independent Scotland. Labour supporters are the key demographic in the referendum.


    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    Maybe the Tories should frame it in that way instead of seeking to pursue their clearly ineffective reds under the bed, Ed is a puppet line.

    'The major Unionist Party in Scotland looks corrupt' is a tricky pro-Union line to pull off....
  • DavidL said:

    Falkirk worries me as a unionist because it paints a picture of a corrupt, undemocratic Scottish Labour party indifferent to Scotland's interests where the decisions are made south of the border. This gives the SNP a lot of amuninition against Labour and the argument that Labour itself would be better off in an independent Scotland. Labour supporters are the key demographic in the referendum.


    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    We should worry about it, DavidL, not as a Party Political thing, but as human beings.

    We should worry about it in the same way we worry about corruption, discrimination, and the state of our democratic institutions generally. I remember the entryism and despotisms that damaged the Labour Party from the 1970s onwards. I don't want to see a return. It is everybody's interest that it is opposed.

    There is cause for concern regarding Falkirk, but there is also cause for hope that it is being dealt with properly.

    Early days yet. Let's watch, wait and hope.

  • Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it?
    It was work experience.

    She has work experience in a museum, and in a supermarket.

    She has a job in a supermarket.

    Which was due to her working as a slave for Poundland? Evidence?
    She lost the 'slave' argument in the courts......

  • @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    Has he ever apologised?
    Has she apologised for accusing him of forcing her into 'slave' Labour - a point she lost in court?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    DavidL said:

    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    I'm not sure whether our Labour friends are obtuse or wilfully blind.....they should remember where the 'English' Civil war started....
    What is really needed here in my view is an open handed gesture by Cameron saying that it is clear that there is a desperate need to revitalise local party democracy in all parties and in particular in safe seats. The government should come forward with funding for 50 open primaries in "safe" seats starting with Falkirk.

    And Miliband should be smart enough to agree.
  • Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it?
    It was work experience.

    She has work experience in a museum, and in a supermarket.

    She has a job in a supermarket.

    Which was due to her working as a slave for Poundland? Evidence?
    She lost the 'slave' argument in the courts......

    Figure of speech.
    I note you don't answer my question.
    Listen, do you actually hire people? Are you an employer? I am and I am saying to you that Reilly is a more attractive prospect that someone who has worked only at a throwaway goods retailer. Do you disagree that someone who has arranged her affairs to gain skills at a major library is likely to be more or less skilled than someone who has been coerced into selling 99p plastic bulldogs?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    Quite. And after 2 daughters you realise that expressing your views is somewhat counter productive.
  • Morning All.

    “This looks like a classic Westminster village versus the rest situation.”

    I thought it a very Scottish village story personally – if 53% nationally are either following it closely or not very closely, but still aware of what is going on, I wonder what a poll of just Scotland would reveal?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    tim said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Anyone who sees this in a purely tory Labour fight is not appreciating the possible implications north of the border. Miliband was wrong to ignore Darling who saw the risk and the implications.

    I'm not sure whether our Labour friends are obtuse or wilfully blind.....they should remember where the 'English' Civil war started....
    What is really needed here in my view is an open handed gesture by Cameron saying that it is clear that there is a desperate need to revitalise local party democracy in all parties and in particular in safe seats. The government should come forward with funding for 50 open primaries in "safe" seats starting with Falkirk.

    And Miliband should be smart enough to agree.
    Where do you think this promise comes from

    We will fund 200 all-postal primaries over
    this Parliament, targeted at seats which have
    not changed hands for many years. These
    funds will be allocated to all political parties
    with seats in Parliament that they take up, in
    proportion to their share of the total vote in
    the last general election.

    I had the Coaliton Agreement very much in mind Tim.
  • Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it?
    It was work experience.

    She has work experience in a museum, and in a supermarket.

    She has a job in a supermarket.

    Which was due to her working as a slave for Poundland? Evidence?
    She lost the 'slave' argument in the courts......

    Figure of speech.
    No, it was part of her case. Which she lost. And has yet to "apologise for" - tho I for one put no great store by apologising for stuff - its often tokenistic.

    I wish her well in her career, and am glad she has found employment, albeit not yet in her preferred field. But the idea that the state is obliged to indefinitely subsidise someone in the career of their choice on a voluntary basis is one the courts did not uphold.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited November 2013

    We should worry about it, DavidL, not as a Party Political thing, but as human beings.

    We should worry about it in the same way we worry about corruption, discrimination, and the state of our democratic institutions generally. I remember the entryism and despotisms that damaged the Labour Party from the 1970s onwards. I don't want to see a return. It is everybody's interest that it is opposed.

    There is cause for concern regarding Falkirk, but there is also cause for hope that it is being dealt with properly.

    Early days yet. Let's watch, wait and hope.

    Ehh...?

    We did not worry about it in 2008; why now? We have had 'Yates-of-the-Yard', the [Now] 'Welsh-Lord and his Diary-Secretary', Baby-P and [the lack of] Common-Sense. In Lewisham we have had demographic changes; closure of pubs and clubs and - according to local publicans - Labour councillors becoming property-magnates thereof.

    So why are you surprised that the Labour party is corrupt, authoritarian and not-fit-for-purpose? I assume you do get out-and-about, talk-to-folks, etc...?
  • DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    Quite. And after 2 daughters you realise that expressing your views is somewhat counter productive.
    Can see you've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt, David.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Morning All.

    “This looks like a classic Westminster village versus the rest situation.”

    I thought it a very Scottish village story personally – if 53% nationally are either following it closely or not very closely, but still aware of what is going on, I wonder what a poll of just Scotland would reveal?

    The Scottish subsample is:

    Closely: 43
    Not very closely: 24
    Aware:24
    Not aware:10
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2013

    Morning All.

    “This looks like a classic Westminster village versus the rest situation.”

    I thought it a very Scottish village story personally – if 53% nationally are either following it closely or not very closely, but still aware of what is going on, I wonder what a poll of just Scotland would reveal?

    In this poll:

    How closely are you following Falkirk
    Scotland (OA)
    Closely: 43 (26)
    Not Closely: 24 (27)
    Not at all/DK: 34 (48)

    Miliband handled issue - net well: -28 (-18)

    Damaged Labour Party - net: +27 (+16)

    Unite undermine enquiry - net: +40 (+29)

    Labour should hold another enquiry - net : +20 (+12)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    As I recall the Communists were quite keen on sending surplus labour to job creation schemes in Siberia. Perhaps slave labour would be a fair description.
    Bobajob said:

    Roger said:

    @Charles

    "Roger, how long should the taxpayer have funded Cait's ambition to get into her chosen sector?"

    As long as she needs. No sane person makes the choice to go on the dole. It just doesn't pay enough. The welfare state is there to support people like Cait through the bad times and when she's in work her taxes will repay the compliment to someone else. it's what civilized societies do.

    Communist.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391

    Bobajob said:

    @Carlotta

    Yes. I just don't think Falkirk will make any difference.
    Nor do the voters.

    Do you have inside information on what the voters think
    Hahahaha! An absolute classic!

  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    @Charles - why make her work in Poundland for nothing

    So she could then get a job in a supermarket - as she has done?

    That swung it, did it?
    It was work experience.

    She has work experience in a museum, and in a supermarket.

    She has a job in a supermarket.

    Which was due to her working as a slave for Poundland? Evidence?
    She lost the 'slave' argument in the courts......

    Figure of speech.
    No, it was part of her case. Which she lost. And has yet to "apologise for" - tho I for one put no great store by apologising for stuff - its often tokenistic.

    I wish her well in her career, and am glad she has found employment, albeit not yet in her preferred field. But the idea that the state is obliged to indefinitely subsidise someone in the career of their choice on a voluntary basis is one the courts did not uphold.
    The insanity of the case is that it was still "subsidising" (your word, not mine) her - just to unpack golden plastic ferrets on to shelves and flog them for a quid, rather than organise archiving for the library of one of largest local authorities in Europe.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    Quite. And after 2 daughters you realise that expressing your views is somewhat counter productive.
    Can see you've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt, David.

    The T shirt said " I am your father". Not worn it a lot tbh.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Can one imagine if an organisation had support ed Cams leadership bid and donated as much money to the Con party as Unite had behaved in this manner ?

    There would be a worldwide glut of outrage and froth.

    When did the left become such hyporites ?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2013
    Financier said:

    Morning All.

    “This looks like a classic Westminster village versus the rest situation.”

    I thought it a very Scottish village story personally – if 53% nationally are either following it closely or not very closely, but still aware of what is going on, I wonder what a poll of just Scotland would reveal?

    The Scottish subsample is:

    Closely: 43
    Not very closely: 24
    Aware:24
    Not aware:10
    Many thanks for that Mr Financier. – A considerably different result as I suspected, given the local significance and coverage the story received there by all accounts.

    @CarlottaVance – Ouch! those are fairly damming results for Miliband and Labour – considering it is entirely a ‘Westminster village’ story.
  • Bobajob said:



    The insanity of the case is that it was still "subsidising" (your word, not mine) her - just to unpack golden plastic ferrets on to shelves and flog them for a quid, rather than organise archiving for the library of one of largest local authorities in Europe.

    Can one imagine the fury if the baby eaters looked down their nose at Poundland customers in such a manner.

    We would never hear the end of it.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:



    The insanity of the case is that it was still "subsidising" (your word, not mine) her - just to unpack golden plastic ferrets on to shelves and flog them for a quid, rather than organise archiving for the library of one of largest local authorities in Europe.

    Can one imagine the fury if the baby eaters looked down their nose at Poundland customers in such a manner.

    We would never hear the end of it.
    I don't look down on anyone - the point I am making is that the government removed a woman from a fairly skilled unpaid role to a fairly unskilled one. Perhaps you can't see the economic nonsense therein, which is odd because I always saw you as one of the brighter ones.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Do you have a link for that?

    I understood that the terrorists there had hired a shop, and brought their weapons in via the goods entrances.

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
  • Bobajob said:



    I don't look down on anyone - the point I am making is that the government removed a woman from a fairly skilled unpaid role to a fairly unskilled one. Perhaps you can't see the economic nonsense therein, which is odd because I always saw you as one of the brighter ones.

    The world of work isn't about skill, though is it. It is about demand for skills. There are plenty of people skilled at subjects where there isn't much demand. Look at entry to music school, for example.

    I really don't see what is demeaning or wrong about working at Poundland.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    "Kenyan officials pointed out that the fighters were all men, although some of them had gone into Westgate pretending to be women, dressed in niqabs."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/kenya-shopping-mall-attack-who-are-alshabaab-the-multinational-force-of-terror-at-the-heart-of-the-nairobi-shopping-centre-massacre-8835514.html

    Do you have a link for that?

    I understood that the terrorists there had hired a shop, and brought their weapons in via the goods entrances.



    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
  • tim said:

    TheIndyPolitics ‏@IndyPolitics 1h
    MP Nadhim Zahawi apologises for claiming taxpayers' money to heat his stables http://ind.pn/19R1xOy

    Tories and horses, never ends well.
    This guy "thought" the stables were billed separately but was only receiving one bill, which is a bit of a giveaway.

    Let's not jump to conclusions on this one before hearing the full story. Was he married to his horse, or in an equivalent relationship? If so I think it would be a legitimate expense.
  • Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
    Gonna ban balaclavas and motor-cycle helmets too?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    She was on the dole, and is now working and paying tax.

    Job done!

    If she wants to continue her unpaid work in her own time and at her own expense, so as to get into museum work, then I expect she would prefer the evening and weekend shifts at the supermarket. I hope her boss accommodates her.
    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:



    The insanity of the case is that it was still "subsidising" (your word, not mine) her - just to unpack golden plastic ferrets on to shelves and flog them for a quid, rather than organise archiving for the library of one of largest local authorities in Europe.

    Can one imagine the fury if the baby eaters looked down their nose at Poundland customers in such a manner.

    We would never hear the end of it.
    I don't look down on anyone - the point I am making is that the government removed a woman from a fairly skilled unpaid role to a fairly unskilled one. Perhaps you can't see the economic nonsense therein, which is odd because I always saw you as one of the brighter ones.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:



    I don't look down on anyone - the point I am making is that the government removed a woman from a fairly skilled unpaid role to a fairly unskilled one. Perhaps you can't see the economic nonsense therein, which is odd because I always saw you as one of the brighter ones.

    The world of work isn't about skill, though is it. It is about demand for skills. There are plenty of people skilled at subjects where there isn't much demand. Look at entry to music school, for example.

    I really don't see what is demeaning or wrong about working at Poundland.
    The world of work IS about skills. We have loads of people apply for jobs but they don't have the skills. I ask you the same question I asked Carlotta (for which I got no answer). Which is the more attractive employee - the self-starting archivist or the coerced shelf stacker?

    I'm not saying Poundland is demeaning. Merely that it isn't particularly gainful.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
    Gonna ban balaclavas and motor-cycle helmets too?
    I'd like there to be legal restrictions on the inappropriate wearing of them
  • tim said:

    TheIndyPolitics ‏@IndyPolitics 1h
    MP Nadhim Zahawi apologises for claiming taxpayers' money to heat his stables http://ind.pn/19R1xOy

    Tories and horses, never ends well.
    This guy "thought" the stables were billed separately but was only receiving one bill, which is a bit of a giveaway.

    Cheaper than Lord "Taffie" Prescott; his breach of employment/HR conduct; his "ho's" diary-secretary's pay-off; and the pixels wasted on your repetitive posting of said information. It ain't wanking working son....
  • I would have thought that a quarter of the electorate following an internal selection wrangle (an overblown non-story according to some) is actually quite high. I can see why the PB Labourites want to take the Ed Milliband 'head in the sand hope it goes away approach', but surely they must be somewhat concerned that their leader hasn't been able to put this issue to bed. He wants to run the country after all. Can you even begin to imagine what a disaster a Milliband/Balls/McCluskey government would be.

    Allied to the their paltry lead I the polls, you'd think Labour supporters would be rather less complacent.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I would not want a complete Burka Ban, but it is interesting that 62% did want this in the survey. Even UKIP seem to have backed off this as a policy.

    Lynton Crosby may not be as out of touch as some on here would make out.

    It would be reasonable though for employers to have the clear right to enforce dress codes, and for institutions such as universities to do the same.

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
    Gonna ban balaclavas and motor-cycle helmets too?


  • Bobajob said:



    The world of work IS about skills. We have loads of people apply for jobs but they don't have the skills. I ask you the same question I asked Carlotta (for which I got no answer). Which is the more attractive employee - the self-starting archivist or the coerced shelf stacker?

    I'm not saying Poundland is demeaning. Merely that it isn't particularly gainful.

    If it is about skills, I should have become a concert pianist rather than a Computer Science Graduate. It required far more skill.

    Trouble is, it doesn't pay.

    Ditto one of our neighbours. He's a great guitarist, studied it from the age of six and still plays.

    He became a surgeon instead.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,504

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.

    Roger said:

    @JJ

    "Do you believe that banning a specific garment is telling women what they have to wear, or not?"

    Yes of course! Imagine it was trousers instead of the Niqab and the government decreed women couldn't wear them wouldn't you then say women were being told what to wear?

    Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case, isn't it, Roger?

    I hate the f*cking garb, but I hate tattoos and body piercings too. You just can't tell people what to wear.

    Anybody that's ever brought up a daughter will know this is so.
    How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by men who used the disguise of the kind of clothes you don't want your daughters to wear? The Niqab was used as a disguise by the terrorists at the Nairobi mall massacre.
    Gonna ban balaclavas and motor-cycle helmets too?
    Peter, I would say yes to balaclavas that cover your whole face and also to helmets if not on a motor cycle.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Skills are often transferrable.

    I sat on a panel selecting trainee surgeons a few years ago. The problem is that these were junior doctors who have had little opportunity to prove aptitude at surgery.

    Those who convinced the panel were often musicians. To get to a good level they had to have manual dexterity, mental focus and the right attitude to practice and rehearsal. Transferable skills to surgery in every case.

    I suspect that skills in stocking, record keeping and delivery would be just the sort of skills that supermarkets want, particularly in their back office logistic systems. Museums and some businesses are not so different, I hope that she is happy in her new job, it almost certainly has better prospects.


    Bobajob said:



    The world of work IS about skills. We have loads of people apply for jobs but they don't have the skills. I ask you the same question I asked Carlotta (for which I got no answer). Which is the more attractive employee - the self-starting archivist or the coerced shelf stacker?

    I'm not saying Poundland is demeaning. Merely that it isn't particularly gainful.

    If it is about skills, I should have become a concert pianist rather than a Computer Science Graduate. It required far more skill.

    Trouble is, it doesn't pay.

    Ditto one of our neighbours. He's a great guitarist, studied it from the age of six and still plays.

    He became a surgeon instead.

    Bobajob said:



    The world of work IS about skills. We have loads of people apply for jobs but they don't have the skills. I ask you the same question I asked Carlotta (for which I got no answer). Which is the more attractive employee - the self-starting archivist or the coerced shelf stacker?

    I'm not saying Poundland is demeaning. Merely that it isn't particularly gainful.

    If it is about skills, I should have become a concert pianist rather than a Computer Science Graduate. It required far more skill.

    Trouble is, it doesn't pay.

    Ditto one of our neighbours. He's a great guitarist, studied it from the age of six and still plays.

    He became a surgeon instead.
  • Bobajob said:



    The world of work IS about skills. We have loads of people apply for jobs but they don't have the skills. I ask you the same question I asked Carlotta (for which I got no answer). Which is the more attractive employee - the self-starting archivist or the coerced shelf stacker?

    I'm not saying Poundland is demeaning. Merely that it isn't particularly gainful.

    If it is about skills, I should have become a concert pianist rather than a Computer Science Graduate. It required far more skill.

    Trouble is, it doesn't pay.

    Ditto one of our neighbours. He's a great guitarist, studied it from the age of six and still plays.

    He became a surgeon instead.
    I tried to edit this and failed for some reason. In answer to Baj's point, the person who is prepared to be most flexible.

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  • Skills are often transferrable.

    I sat on a panel selecting trainee surgeons a few years ago. The problem is that these were junior doctors who have had little opportunity to prove aptitude at surgery.

    Those who convinced the panel were often musicians. To get to a good level they had to have manual dexterity, mental focus and the right attitude to practice and rehearsal. Transferable skills to surgery in every case.

    I suspect that skills in stocking, record keeping and delivery would be just the sort of skills that supermarkets want, particularly in their back office logistic systems. Museums and some businesses are not so different, I hope that she is happy in her new job, it almost certainly has better prospects.



    Great post Mr Fox. One often wonders why these people weren't allowed to become professional musicians in the first place, instead of being 'coerced' into becoming surgeons.

    These are the sort of people we want, flexibility and adaptability is everything.
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