The last two Westminster elections about Brexit turned out not to be about Brexit. Maybe next time it will be different.
But with many of the other parties you'd assume other reasons outweighed Brexit, that is in a Euro election. In a general election with the greater turnout that would probably be lessened again.
.
There are various issues remain/leave have differences on, I think an example given was leave voters and capital punishment and various others. I think those hoping for Brexit alone to be that dividing line are going to be as disappointed as those who think it will completely overtake economic issues...
I can't see the Republican strategy working quite as well in the UK.
I agree that the absence of a religious dimension hinders replicating the Republican offer.
But Labour's problem is more acute. As Degler comments in his classic study of American social history, US politics was largely freed of the class dimension having taken shape after the key victories of representation and rights having been won. Whereas in the UK Labour is tied to its roots in the class struggle. What contemporary values hold the older trade union worker in Stoke and the young graphic designer in Islington to the same political offer?
It does seem as if the longer term future of the centre-left is Orange and Green. Corbyn Labour and its media outriders have made very clear the party does not want certain types of vote - and they are now getting their wish. The problem is that the voters they thought were there just aren't.
Agreed. Easy to see the urban young demographic going Orange and Green. The question is how many seats that actually costs Labour. In many of the seats where the graphic designer is represented, Labour has huge majorities which is buttressed by a high ethnic population representation. Where this isn't present, as in the North East for example, there aren't that many young hipster graphic designers.
Certainly the concentration of Labour's support in those demographics means that of all the parties it will be the most resilient under the voting system as its vote share declines - there isn't the same tipping point that the Tories face in the Home Counties (except perhaps in Inner London, which *could* tip LibDem as during the Euros).
All the more reason why a Melenchon positioning is probably the right one for the longer term.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Divided parties never win... at least that is the hope of the centrists..
Although I assume the person who came up with that saying was a deluded Corbynista...
"It’s apparent as soon as you speak to any Labour figure who is not demented, or as you parse the writings and quarrels of the Corbynite media commentators, that they know that the Corbyn moment is over."
"But in the last few months something latent in Britain has become manifest, catalysed by Brexit. It is the realisation that we don’t have to choose between the Conservative Party or the Labour Party to govern us in perpetuity. As of this year the “voting Lib Dem/Green/Independent is a wastedvote” is no truer than saying the same of the two traditional governing parties. If anything “vote Boris to stop Corbyn” has less resonance than, say, “vote Lib Dem to stop both of them”. (my bold)
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
No. Labour would rather take their chances in another GE. Brenda of Bristol has an aneurysm.
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Bang goes the idea Hunt is a more popular choice with the public thsn Boris then.
I also know at least 1 Tory member who is a Remainer and Association Chairman and might have voted for Hunt but is very anti fox hunting, this probably pushes him towards Boris
But where Jeremy Hunt's seat is fox hunting is a hot button issue and the actual Hunt has a lot of support. He might be looking at the odds of getting back to Westminster at all.
I commented earlier this morning that Hunts support for foxhunting has lost him our two votes, as my wife and I are implacably opposed to it. He only needs to suggest a dementia tax to put him down as TM2 and in that case I would rather see TM continue in post
That's a bit extreme isn't it Mr G?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
You know he didn’t pledge to legalise it?
He said that if there was a majority in Parliament (which there isn’t) he would call a vote on it.
If you flip it round - he’s knows there’s a majority but won’t call a vote in case it gets approved - isn’t that much worse?
The Telegraph is misreporting Hunt in a way that helps Boris
I think there are three things going on regarding Labour.
Remainers utterly sick of Corbyns refusal to come out fully for another vote .
Corbyns leadership in general .
A more natural home for those more to the centre , many had chosen Labour as a way to stop May getting a majority but aren’t totally comfortable with them.
The problem for Labour is any pivot to a second vote now looks desperate and who would trust them with Corbyn still in charge .
TBH Labour have already voted for a second referendum, anyone who has a problem with Labour doing that probably already has.
And to make an obvious but blunt point if we are talking about someone who is lost regardless what we do then their opinion really doesn't matter. In the same way the Tories don't give a damn what I think and Labour don't give a damn what HYUFD thinks.
Corbyn backed that because he knew it would lose . And to be blunt Corbyn will enable another Tory government . There are a group surrounding Corbyn who trash those who thought Blair did okay domestically , just as the ERG have their Brexit purity test the Corbyn groupies have their test .
They also say that a push for a second vote is a way to get at Corbyn , and using this to de-legitimize another vote .
I despise a Tory government just as much as you but I don’t see Corbyn winning an election and that at the end of the day is the crucial factor .
TBH there are obviously people within Labour who have used the second vote to attack Corbyn, this doesn't mean a second vote is in itself bad, speaking as someone who is in favour of one (although back tracked a bit recently)
There has never been a time when a second vote was about to win and he hasn't backed it, if there isn't the numbers in parliament for a second referendum when Corbyn is voting for it and getting his party to vote for it then it doesn't really matter either way.
If Corbyn isn't going to win an election then Boris and no deal it is, Labour supporters aren't replacing Corbyn before an election.
For one thing if we get another left wing leader in surely that will just encourage the same people to do exactly what they have done to Corbyn and the cycle will continue.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
No. Labour would rather take their chances in another GE. Brenda of Bristol has an aneurysm.
I expect the Lib Dems in parallel discussions would be demanding Boris Johnson’s head too. I wonder which side would crack first.
And to make an obvious but blunt point if we are talking about someone who is lost regardless what we do then their opinion really doesn't matter.
1) We won't lose our voters 2) We're losing them but there's nothing we can do about it 3) We lost them and there was something we could have done about it but it's far too late now
The last two Westminster elections about Brexit turned out not to be about Brexit. Maybe next time it will be different.
TBH when you look at the turnout in Euro elections and the percentages each party got it doesn't exactly make you think a huge chunk of the electorate is obsessed by Brexit...
Even with Brexit party I'm sure a Farage led party would get votes without Brexit being any kind of issue, obviously lots of Brexit related votes there. Similarly Lib Dems would always get some votes, although a big Brexit related vote there as well.
But with many of the other parties you'd assume other reasons outweighed Brexit, that is in a Euro election. In a general election with the greater turnout that would probably be lessened again.
But its about more than just Brexit as a process or event.
As in Scotland, the referendum - and more specifically its extended and bitter political aftermath - is re-casting how people see themselves. The Brexit divide goes wider than people's views on future political and trading arrangements with our neighbours, drawing on deep issues of culture and identity.
And we see similar processes underway elsewhere, in Trump's America, and the rise of the AfD and Greens in Germany.
People who hope this all ends when 'Brexit' as a political decision is made are likely to be disappointed.
There are various issues remain/leave have differences on, I think an example given was leave voters and capital punishment and various others. I think those hoping for Brexit alone to be that dividing line are going to be as disappointed as those who think it will completely overtake economic issues...
I can't see the Republican strategy working quite as well in the UK.
I agree that the absence of a religious dimension hinders replicating the Republican offer.
But Labour's problem is more acute. As Degler comments in his classic study of American social history, US politics was largely freed of the class dimension having taken shape after the key victories of representation and rights having been won. Whereas in the UK Labour is tied to its roots in the class struggle. What contemporary values hold the older trade union worker in Stoke and the young graphic designer in Islington to the same political offer?
Labours problem with older working class voters is them largely being better off, Labours base is poorer and younger generally. The common motive among poorer voters in places like Islington, Birmingham, South Wales etc. is economic improvement, better public services etc. basically left wing economics.
Good luck on winning a GE with that demographic alone.
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
So, I think that Jeremy Hunt was super misguided to mention, get involved with or otherwise express a view on hunting. Wholly irrelevant to the current issues.
However, if anyone wants to have a discussion about hunting I'm up for it, as ever. Defending hunting on boards like this is a bit like explaining efficient markets hypothesis to a five year old but as I say bring it on.
Coming next ... Jeremy Hunt vows to bring back capital punishment.
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Is it really a conspiracy to suggest that a party infighting with a faction determined to bring the leadership down than let the party succeed might hurt the party?
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
Bang goes the idea Hunt is a more popular choice with the public thsn Boris then.
I also know at least 1 Tory member who is a Remainer and Association Chairman and might have voted for Hunt but is very anti fox hunting, this probably pushes him towards Boris
But where Jeremy Hunt's seat is fox hunting is a hot button issue and the actual Hunt has a lot of support. He might be looking at the odds of getting back to Westminster at all.
I commented earlier this morning that Hunts support for foxhunting has lost him our two votes, as my wife and I are implacably opposed to it. He only needs to suggest a dementia tax to put him down as TM2 and in that case I would rather see TM continue in post
That's a bit extreme isn't it Mr G?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
It is not trivial to us or our family. It will prevent us voting for Hunt
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
If it were trivial Hunt would never have mentioned it. He knows very well that the troy grassroots have a pathological attraction to cruelty of all kinds.
True, full of retired colonels and vice admirals as we are.
That Russian AS-12 that just went up in flames had 5 captains in a crew of 14. That puts our rank inflation into perspective.
Unfashionable to say it with risks of howls about racism but Labour's reliance on the Muslim vote causes problems Re anti- semitism but more importantly with LBGTQ voters.
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Is it really a conspiracy to suggest that a party infighting with a faction determined to bring the leadership down than let the party succeed might hurt the party?
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
They are not trying to stop corbyn succeeding because he never will, they are trying to save their party
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Is it really a conspiracy to suggest that a party infighting with a faction determined to bring the leadership down than let the party succeed might hurt the party?
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
They are not trying to stop corbyn succeeding because he never will, they are trying to save their party
They are transfixed by the answer being that the party's positioning is wrong, when the answer is that they themselves are in the wrong party.
I think when the campaign comes the three established parties will be able to get their vote out, while the Brexit Party won't. It will come down to how efficiently the centre and left vote tactically to beat the Tories.
I think that's right. From the Labour perspective I'd like to see Boris win, because he is much more marmite than Hunt, making it easier to promote tactical voting. He's got lots of fans but probably a shortage of people who think he's "not bad, better than the alternative I suppose", which is what tactical voting comes down to. Hunt, despite his current best efforts to portray himself as Thatcher reborn, still comes across as a quiet moderate choice.
Clearly the trend is bad for Labour at the moment, whatever the virtues of the individual polling institutes, but the 4-horse race is so fragile that any major development could shift things in any direction quite dramatically.
I think you over estimate the position of Corbyn's Labour Party. I don't believe most voters see it as a traditional left of centre Party anymore. More like a reborn Militant Tendancy. A dystopian vision of 1985 where Derek Hatton won. A party of re-nationalisation run by the unions. And that's before his pusillanimity over Brexit....
A pity because Corbyn's pacifism and anti Americanism are appealing. It would be nice on the side of the angels occasionally.
If Corbyn's malaise continues, it will be Labour voters that vote tactically for the Lib Dems.
Many hope the Lib Dems become a Blairtite version of the Labour Party. This might be their chance. The voters are there. A drip of defections leading to a flood. If the Corbyn clique won't leave the party the party will have to leave them..
Bang goes the idea Hunt is a more popular choice with the public thsn Boris then.
I also know at least 1 Tory member who is a Remainer and Association Chairman and might have voted for Hunt but is very anti fox hunting, this probably pushes him towards Boris
But where Jeremy Hunt's seat is fox hunting is a hot button issue and the actual Hunt has a lot of support. He might be looking at the odds of getting back to Westminster at all.
I commented earlier this morning that Hunts support for foxhunting has lost him our two votes, as my wife and I are implacably opposed to it. He only needs to suggest a dementia tax to put him down as TM2 and in that case I would rather see TM continue in post
That's a bit extreme isn't it Mr G?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
You know he didn’t pledge to legalise it?
He said that if there was a majority in Parliament (which there isn’t) he would call a vote on it.
If you flip it round - he’s knows there’s a majority but won’t call a vote in case it gets approved - isn’t that much worse?
The Telegraph is misreporting Hunt in a way that helps Boris
Yes someone mentioned that last night - but imo he should have pivoted a million miles away from the question and kept pivoting finally responding to the question with "do you really think people in the UK think hunting is more important that X, Y, or Z?" IIRC May's situation was similar. She asked, so she answered. But look at the damage it did.
Bang goes the idea Hunt is a more popular choice with the public thsn Boris then.
I also know at least 1 Tory member who is a Remainer and Association Chairman and might have voted for Hunt but is very anti fox hunting, this probably pushes him towards Boris
But where Jeremy Hunt's seat is fox hunting is a hot button issue and the actual Hunt has a lot of support. He might be looking at the odds of getting back to Westminster at all.
I commented earlier this morning that Hunts support for foxhunting has lost him our two votes, as my wife and I are implacably opposed to it. He only needs to suggest a dementia tax to put him down as TM2 and in that case I would rather see TM continue in post
That's a bit extreme isn't it Mr G?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
It is not trivial to us or our family. It will prevent us voting for Hunt
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
It would be a pleasure to meet with you Nick.
We differ on many things but we could be surprised how many things unite us
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
Bang goes the idea Hunt is a more popular choice with the public thsn Boris then.
I also know at least 1 Tory member who is a Remainer and Association Chairman and might have voted for Hunt but is very anti fox hunting, this probably pushes him towards Boris
But where Jeremy Hunt's seat is fox hunting is a hot button issue and the actual Hunt has a lot of support. He might be looking at the odds of getting back to Westminster at all.
I commented earlier this morning that Hunts support for foxhunting has lost him our two votes, as my wife and I are implacably opposed to it. He only needs to suggest a dementia tax to put him down as TM2 and in that case I would rather see TM continue in post
That's a bit extreme isn't it Mr G?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
You know he didn’t pledge to legalise it?
He said that if there was a majority in Parliament (which there isn’t) he would call a vote on it.
If you flip it round - he’s knows there’s a majority but won’t call a vote in case it gets approved - isn’t that much worse?
The Telegraph is misreporting Hunt in a way that helps Boris
Yes someone mentioned that last night - but imo he should have pivoted a million miles away from the question and kept pivoting finally responding to the question with "do you really think people in the UK think hunting is more important that X, Y, or Z?" IIRC May's situation was similar. She asked, so she answered. But look at the damage it did.
Oh he’s an idiot - created ammunition for those not afraid to lie
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
Good analogy. Although, same with Br*x*t and a mandate for no deal. The voters didn't give the Conservatives one. In the circumstances you describe, the voters wouldn't all have voted for Blair and hence the situation is not as black and white.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
It wouldn’t be swapping a leader. It would be agreeing a Prime Minister who could command the confidence of the House. Do you compromise or not?
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Is it really a conspiracy to suggest that a party infighting with a faction determined to bring the leadership down than let the party succeed might hurt the party?
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
They are not trying to stop corbyn succeeding because he never will, they are trying to save their party
TBH as Shuker pointed out, the reason those MPs left isn't because Corbyn can't succeed it is because he might.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
No. Labour would rather take their chances in another GE. Brenda of Bristol has an aneurysm.
Clegg made similar noises to Labour regarding PM Brown - and he offered to stand down. Different circumstances and different personnel admittedly.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
So, I think that Jeremy Hunt was super misguided to mention, get involved with or otherwise express a view on hunting. Wholly irrelevant to the current issues.
However, if anyone wants to have a discussion about hunting I'm up for it, as ever. Defending hunting on boards like this is a bit like explaining efficient markets hypothesis to a five year old but as I say bring it on.
As far as one can tell (and this is based on summaries, not on the article text), the answer was significantly less forthright than the Telegraph would have one believe. Of course, the Telegraph has a preferred candidate who is not doing quite so marvellously as they anticipated.
The Labour left have some good people and ideas, and the party was ripe for a change in direction after years of Blairism and the failure of Britain's current economic model in the wake of the GFC. But I think they have squandered that opportunity by failing to flesh out new policy ideas sufficiently, failing to reach out to others in the party and in the country beyond, and falling back into a kind of ideological comfort zone where being right is more important than getting things done and destroying perceived enemies within the party is more important than creating a coalition to rule Britain. On top of this there has been a tiresome and intellectually vacuous cult of personality built up around Corbyn, who is not a bad man but whose limitations are manifest to anyone who has held back from the kool-aid. Brexit and anti semitism have been the issues where these failings have been manifest, but it could have been anything. I think the route to victory for the party lies in easing Corbyn out along with some of his far left advisors, and building a more pragmatic team retaining people like McDonnell with a clearer anti Brexit policy and a popular platform of redistribution, economic empowerment, boosting prooductivity and improving infrastructure. I don't think they will do this however, and so sadly I think a Labour is screwed, and as a result a chance to take this country in a better direction will be lost.
So, I think that Jeremy Hunt was super misguided to mention, get involved with or otherwise express a view on hunting. Wholly irrelevant to the current issues.
However, if anyone wants to have a discussion about hunting I'm up for it, as ever. Defending hunting on boards like this is a bit like explaining efficient markets hypothesis to a five year old but as I say bring it on.
As far as one can tell (and this is based on summaries, not on the article text), the answer was significantly less forthright than the Telegraph would have one believe. Of course, the Telegraph has a preferred candidate who is not doing quite so marvellously as they anticipated.
Yes, as @Charles has pointed out. But nevertheless it was an elephant trap and he fell into it.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
I think when the campaign comes the three established parties will be able to get their vote out, while the Brexit Party won't. It will come down to how efficiently the centre and left vote tactically to beat the Tories.
I think that's right. From the Labour perspective I'd like to see Boris win, because he is much more marmite than Hunt, making it easier to promote tactical voting. He's got lots of fans but probably a shortage of people who think he's "not bad, better than the alternative I suppose", which is what tactical voting comes down to. Hunt, despite his current best efforts to portray himself as Thatcher reborn, still comes across as a quiet moderate choice.
Clearly the trend is bad for Labour at the moment, whatever the virtues of the individual polling institutes, but the 4-horse race is so fragile that any major development could shift things in any direction quite dramatically.
I think you over estimate the position of Corbyn's Labour Party. I don't believe most voters see it as a traditional left of centre Party anymore. More like a reborn Militant Tendancy. A dystopian vision of 1985 where Derek Hatton won. A party of re-nationalisation run by the unions. And that's before his pusillanimity over Brexit....
A pity because Corbyn's pacifism and anti Americanism are appealing. It would be nice to be on the side of the angels for once.
There is nothing appealing about Corbyn's anti-Americanism. It is the mirror image of the manichaean worldview of the American right.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
It wouldn’t be swapping a leader. It would be agreeing a Prime Minister who could command the confidence of the House. Do you compromise or not?
I wouldn't argue everyone down if I was in the room making the decision with others in Labour leadership but my personal view would be not to deal and either have another election or let them deal with the Tories.
Edit: Also it will seem dodgy to voters, however justified it is.
Brown was well known to be taking over from Blair.
Johnson is a bit more of a surprise but people can understand why someone is replacing May.
Replacing Corbyn immediately after the voting with some random person the vast majority won't know and making them PM is going to look dodgy regardless of how valid it is in our system.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
It wouldn’t be swapping a leader. It would be agreeing a Prime Minister who could command the confidence of the House. Do you compromise or not?
I wouldn't argue everyone down if I was in the room making the decision with others in Labour leadership but my personal view would be not to deal and either have another election or let them deal with the Tories.
So the individual is more important than the policy programme? Good to know.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
I completely and wholeheartedly agree. Fox hunting support is one of those things that has in the past made me feel embarrassed to support the Tories. It is barbaric and should be dead and buried in the past. Why Hunt, May and others feel the need to bring it up is totally beyond me.
And if a journalist asks then give a politicians answer to dismiss the question.
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Corbynism has a stench of death about it. Nobody will touch it. And the death cult is now eating itself again attacking Rebecca Lomg-Bailey for the crime of speaking to 100 years affiliated Jewish Labour Movement.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
Didn't the LDs demand that Gordon Brown step down as PM as a pre-condition for discussing a deal with Labour in 2010? Of course, were the LDs to make such a demand next time, the choice would not be Labour's, it would be down to Labour MPs. The difference is very important. It's one reason why the far left is so keen on deselections. John McDonnell knows all about this kind of move:
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
It wouldn’t be swapping a leader. It would be agreeing a Prime Minister who could command the confidence of the House. Do you compromise or not?
I wouldn't argue everyone down if I was in the room making the decision with others in Labour leadership but my personal view would be not to deal and either have another election or let them deal with the Tories.
So the individual is more important than the policy programme? Good to know.
TBH the edited extra should be included as well, but the individual is important because he is a guarantee of the programme.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
Re the polling and possible long term changes in party position, it seems to me that the LD position while promising is precarious and depends on Corbyn. Labour are still the obvious not-Tory choice in most seats and would surely regain a lot of LD tactical votes under a more moderate and anti-Brexit leader. Labour could regain a strong position very quickly under a different leader. THe longer Corbyn stays, the better the longer term prospects for LD as winning or coming second to the Conservatives in many seats at the next election would then make them the obvious non-Tory choice in those seats. LDs need an election with Corbyn still in place and ideally Brexit not resolved.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
You can't just swap a new leader in straight after an election.
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
It wouldn’t be swapping a leader. It would be agreeing a Prime Minister who could command the confidence of the House. Do you compromise or not?
I wouldn't argue everyone down if I was in the room making the decision with others in Labour leadership but my personal view would be not to deal and either have another election or let them deal with the Tories.
So the individual is more important than the policy programme? Good to know.
Of course - it is far more important to people like Jezziah that Jeremy Corbyn lead Labour than that Labour defeats the Tories and takes power. That's why Corbyn is still Labour leader and will be for the foreseeable future.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
It's not cruel, Big G.
I think we need to respectfully agree to disagree on fox hunting
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
Didn't the LDs demand that Gordon Brown step down as PM as a pre-condition for discussing a deal with Labour in 2010? Of course, were the LDs to make such a demand next time, the choice would not be Labour's, it would be down to Labour MPs. The difference is very important. It's one reason why the far left is so keen on deselections. John McDonnell knows all about this kind of move:
Yes they did. And given Jeremy Corbyn is epically unpopular, this is almost certainly a precondition for the Lib Dems this time too. Which is why I was interested to see how cult-like the Corbynites would be. Do they do a deal that puts a progressive programme in place or do they reject it if their man is not the Great Helmsman?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
I completely and wholeheartedly agree. Fox hunting support is one of those things that has in the past made me feel embarrassed to support the Tories. It is barbaric and should be dead and buried in the past. Why Hunt, May and others feel the need to bring it up is totally beyond me.
And if a journalist asks then give a politicians answer to dismiss the question.
Well given Johnson wanted to introduce it in London so it’s not a differentiator between them.
Interesting to look at the sequencing there. Little more than gradual drift for eighteen months. Coming first, the CUK launch appears to take 5% mostly from Labour, not hitting the LibDems at all. Then the BXP launch starts to take the Tories down, and steadily kills UKIP. Only when the Tories are pulled down below 30% do Labour supporters start to shift dramatically toward the LibDems. Which also kills of CUK. And later still comes the shift from Lab to Green.
Re the polling and possible long term changes in party position, it seems to me that the LD position while promising is precarious and depends on Corbyn. Labour are still the obvious not-Tory choice in most seats and would surely regain a lot of LD tactical votes under a more moderate and anti-Brexit leader. Labour could regain a strong position very quickly under a different leader. THe longer Corbyn stays, the better the longer term prospects for LD as winning or coming second to the Conservatives in many seats at the next election would then make them the obvious non-Tory choice in those seats. LDs need an election with Corbyn still in place and ideally Brexit not resolved.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
But assume Corbyn relents, and is replaced by Long-Bailey or Thornberry. What then is their strategy? Thornberry wants to tack remain, but stay firm left. Does Long-Bailey want to shift from Corbyn's approach at all?
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
It's not cruel, Big G.
Mr Topping, you will never convince someone who is already prejudiced against country sports (note the comment about the "terrified" fox, which is emotive and unscientific). Though to vote for Boris is an odd choice. I am not sure whether he still hunts (probably too fat for a horse, unless it was a very large cob), but I am pretty sure he was a supporter. I guess his position will depend how many votes he thinks is in it for him.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
Didn't the LDs demand that Gordon Brown step down as PM as a pre-condition for discussing a deal with Labour in 2010? Of course, were the LDs to make such a demand next time, the choice would not be Labour's, it would be down to Labour MPs. The difference is very important. It's one reason why the far left is so keen on deselections. John McDonnell knows all about this kind of move:
Yes they did. And given Jeremy Corbyn is epically unpopular, this is almost certainly a precondition for the Lib Dems this time too. Which is why I was interested to see how cult-like the Corbynites would be. Do they do a deal that puts a progressive programme in place or do they reject it if their man is not the Great Helmsman?
Yep, it's Magic Grandpa over the power to actually change people's lives for the better every single time.
Re the polling and possible long term changes in party position, it seems to me that the LD position while promising is precarious and depends on Corbyn. Labour are still the obvious not-Tory choice in most seats and would surely regain a lot of LD tactical votes under a more moderate and anti-Brexit leader. Labour could regain a strong position very quickly under a different leader. THe longer Corbyn stays, the better the longer term prospects for LD as winning or coming second to the Conservatives in many seats at the next election would then make them the obvious non-Tory choice in those seats. LDs need an election with Corbyn still in place and ideally Brexit not resolved.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
But assume Corbyn relents, and is replaced by Long-Bailey or Thornberry. What then is their strategy? Thornberry wants to tack remain, but stay firm left. Does Long-Bailey want to shift from Corbyn's approach at all?
It would have to be spelled out in a leadership contest. RLB is a Leaver, so would be very unlikely to win. That's why Corbyn stays.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I hope so, Mr G, and that they succeed. I've been quite impressed by what I've seen of the leadership candidates.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
It's not cruel, Big G.
Mr Topping, you will never convince someone who is already prejudiced against country sports (note the comment about the "terrified" fox, which is emotive and unscientific). Though to vote for Boris is an odd choice. I am not sure whether he still hunts (probably too fat for a horse, unless it was a very large cob), but I am pretty sure he was a supporter. I guess his position will depend how many votes he thinks is in it for him.
"still hunts" ? Looking here, I can tell you Boris 100% has never ridden a horse:
Re the polling and possible long term changes in party position, it seems to me that the LD position while promising is precarious and depends on Corbyn. Labour are still the obvious not-Tory choice in most seats and would surely regain a lot of LD tactical votes under a more moderate and anti-Brexit leader. Labour could regain a strong position very quickly under a different leader. THe longer Corbyn stays, the better the longer term prospects for LD as winning or coming second to the Conservatives in many seats at the next election would then make them the obvious non-Tory choice in those seats. LDs need an election with Corbyn still in place and ideally Brexit not resolved.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
But assume Corbyn relents, and is replaced by Long-Bailey or Thornberry. What then is their strategy? Thornberry wants to tack remain, but stay firm left. Does Long-Bailey want to shift from Corbyn's approach at all?
Aye, it would depend on the new leader. Thornberry, coming out clearly for second vote might peel off a large chunk of LD current support in my view, at least for tactical voting. Long-Bailey, maybe not.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I hope so, Mr G, and that they succeed. I've been quite impressed by what I've seen of the leadership candidates.
I would like them to succeed as well. Corbyn's labour needs consigning to history along with his marxist anti west ideals
Re the polling and possible long term changes in party position, it seems to me that the LD position while promising is precarious and depends on Corbyn. Labour are still the obvious not-Tory choice in most seats and would surely regain a lot of LD tactical votes under a more moderate and anti-Brexit leader. Labour could regain a strong position very quickly under a different leader. THe longer Corbyn stays, the better the longer term prospects for LD as winning or coming second to the Conservatives in many seats at the next election would then make them the obvious non-Tory choice in those seats. LDs need an election with Corbyn still in place and ideally Brexit not resolved.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
If we leave by the next GE, what is Farage's offer ?
To rejoin but leave even harder this time.
If we leave they will have to rebrand as a minimum. More likely Farage goes for a pint and they end up as UKIP2.
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
What the Actual Fuck are you on about? The party that will back Brexit is US under the Jeremy. The LibDems are ANTI BREXIT. And 2 elections time? How many people die under the Tories in those years? How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Is it really a conspiracy to suggest that a party infighting with a faction determined to bring the leadership down than let the party succeed might hurt the party?
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
They are not trying to stop corbyn succeeding because he never will, they are trying to save their party
They are transfixed by the answer being that the party's positioning is wrong, when the answer is that they themselves are in the wrong party.
An interesting thought. It's difficult to see Corbyn's Labour as having much in common with what's gone before. He voted against his Party more often than he voted for it. So who exactly decides what the Labour Party position is or whether it's transitory or not? The Labour Party is a brand. The question of who owns the brand is not obvious
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
It's not cruel, Big G.
Mr Topping, you will never convince someone who is already prejudiced against country sports (note the comment about the "terrified" fox, which is emotive and unscientific). Though to vote for Boris is an odd choice. I am not sure whether he still hunts (probably too fat for a horse, unless it was a very large cob), but I am pretty sure he was a supporter. I guess his position will depend how many votes he thinks is in it for him.
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Don't give me rubbish about trying to win the election, your progress death cult lot are desperate for us to lose it.
There are limited parties the Lib Dems can back, on the off chance them and the SNP don't make a majority they may get to be the deciding factor between Corbyn and Boris.
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
Didn't the LDs demand that Gordon Brown step down as PM as a pre-condition for discussing a deal with Labour in 2010? Of course, were the LDs to make such a demand next time, the choice would not be Labour's, it would be down to Labour MPs. The difference is very important. It's one reason why the far left is so keen on deselections. John McDonnell knows all about this kind of move:
Yes they did. And given Jeremy Corbyn is epically unpopular, this is almost certainly a precondition for the Lib Dems this time too. Which is why I was interested to see how cult-like the Corbynites would be. Do they do a deal that puts a progressive programme in place or do they reject it if their man is not the Great Helmsman?
Might a have your cake and eat it strategy work? Corbyn stays as Leader of the party, but outside cabinet free to campaign for what Labour would really do if they had a majority (with magic money tree boosts), whilst Thornberry becomes PM in a coalition.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
I completely and wholeheartedly agree. Fox hunting support is one of those things that has in the past made me feel embarrassed to support the Tories. It is barbaric and should be dead and buried in the past. Why Hunt, May and others feel the need to bring it up is totally beyond me.
And if a journalist asks then give a politicians answer to dismiss the question.
Well given Johnson wanted to introduce it in London so it’s not a differentiator between them.
Source please?
And when? A decade ago when it was a live issue, or now when its an historical oddity.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I hope so, Mr G, and that they succeed. I've been quite impressed by what I've seen of the leadership candidates.
I would like them to succeed as well. Corbyn's labour needs consigning to history along with his marxist anti west ideals
Yet it was Corbyn who raised the issue of student debt when the Conservatives were intent on making it ever larger.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I hope so, Mr G, and that they succeed. I've been quite impressed by what I've seen of the leadership candidates.
I would like them to succeed as well. Corbyn's labour needs consigning to history along with his marxist anti west ideals
Yet it was Corbyn who raised the issue of student debt when the Conservatives were intent on making it ever larger.
So he has at least done something positive.
Corbyn's saved the taxpayer money long term there. Something you won't hear too often.
I think the complaints was calling the canary and Chris anti semitic TBH,
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
How about - and I know it's a radical idea to you death cult cretins - we actually try and win this election. By having police's hat actual voters will vote for
Like you said they won't back Corbyn, so let them take the responsibility for no deal and Boris.
We can come back around to lets win the coming election, that would be ideal but the progress death cult is still a bit strong, they will destroy the party before they let anyone else succeed. Fighting them off and winning might be too much this time but he might weaken them enough that a left wing Labour leader can succeed next time.
A thought experiment: one worth thinking about because it is quite likely. Imagine Labour tally 265 seats or so, and the Lib Dems have racked up 50. They indicate that they are willing to offer support to a Labour government and agree a progressive programme, but on condition that Jeremy Corbyn does not head the government and a figure acceptable to them does. Do you do that deal?
Didn't the LDs demand that Gordon Brown step down as PM as a pre-condition for discussing a deal with Labour in 2010? Of course, were the LDs to make such a demand next time, the choice would not be Labour's, it would be down to Labour MPs. The difference is very important. It's one reason why the far left is so keen on deselections. John McDonnell knows all about this kind of move:
Yes they did. And given Jeremy Corbyn is epically unpopular, this is almost certainly a precondition for the Lib Dems this time too. Which is why I was interested to see how cult-like the Corbynites would be. Do they do a deal that puts a progressive programme in place or do they reject it if their man is not the Great Helmsman?
Might a have your cake and eat it strategy work? Corbyn stays as Leader of the party, but outside cabinet free to campaign for what Labour would really do if they had a majority (with magic money tree boosts), whilst Thornberry becomes PM in a coalition.
A 'have your cake and eat it strategy' seems to be working for BoJo. The question is, what happens when the cake actually runs out.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I hope so, Mr G, and that they succeed. I've been quite impressed by what I've seen of the leadership candidates.
I would like them to succeed as well. Corbyn's labour needs consigning to history along with his marxist anti west ideals
Yet it was Corbyn who raised the issue of student debt when the Conservatives were intent on making it ever larger.
So he has at least done something positive.
Every opposition party for the last 20 years [Labour, Tory and Lib Dem] has opposed student debt when in opposition. And every government party for the last 20 years [Labour, Tory and Lib Dem] has increased student debt when in government.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
Fair enough. I know Labour members with similar sentiments (I'm not a member of any party myself and my vote varies). I have sympathy with you and members like you with the choice you have been given.
Thank you.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
It's not cruel, Big G.
Mr Topping, you will never convince someone who is already prejudiced against country sports (note the comment about the "terrified" fox, which is emotive and unscientific). Though to vote for Boris is an odd choice. I am not sure whether he still hunts (probably too fat for a horse, unless it was a very large cob), but I am pretty sure he was a supporter. I guess his position will depend how many votes he thinks is in it for him.
"still hunts" ? Looking here, I can tell you Boris 100% has never ridden a horse:
What does it matter? Even the polls where Labour are top means Labour plus LibDems in coalition are short of a majority. Not that such a coalition will happen.
Fuck Corbyn up the wrong un
Also if the Lib Dems want to back Boris for a no deal that has a silver lining for 2 elections time from a Labour pov.
Marvellous. The Labour vote has collapsed - and it's all the fault of people who have absolutely no control over the Labour party or its policies. Of course it is.
Amazing isn’t it . It’s always someone else’s fault or a conspiracy.
Is it really a conspiracy to suggest that a party infighting with a faction determined to bring the leadership down than let the party succeed might hurt the party?
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
They are not trying to stop corbyn succeeding because he never will, they are trying to save their party
They are transfixed by the answer being that the party's positioning is wrong, when the answer is that they themselves are in the wrong party.
An interesting thought. It's difficult to see Corbyn's Labour as having much in common with what's gone before. He voted against his Party more often than he voted for it. So who exactly decides what the Labour Party position is or whether it's transitory or not? The Labour Party is a brand. The question of who owns the brand is not obvious
The more I think on it, the more the Melenchon positioning seems the only long-term stable one for Labour. It can never escape its roots, culture and ties to the union movement.
Pretending it can somehow turn into a centre-left party free of all this is for the birds. Trying to out LibDem the LibDems is not a viable strategy.
Its core vote is with left wing trade unionists and the ethnic minorities, both of which are socially conservative constituencies. Economic left and social conservative is the widely perceived gap in our politics, which only Labour can fill.
So Nandy and Mann and Flint and co. are right.
The problem this presents - in the short term - is that the party is on the wrong side from its members. How this plays out remains to be seen.
The Labour left have some good people and ideas, and the party was ripe for a change in direction after years of Blairism and the failure of Britain's current economic model in the wake of the GFC. But I think they have squandered that opportunity by failing to flesh out new policy ideas sufficiently, failing to reach out to others in the party and in the country beyond, and falling back into a kind of ideological comfort zone where being right is more important than getting things done and destroying perceived enemies within the party is more important than creating a coalition to rule Britain. On top of this there has been a tiresome and intellectually vacuous cult of personality built up around Corbyn, who is not a bad man but whose limitations are manifest to anyone who has held back from the kool-aid. Brexit and anti semitism have been the issues where these failings have been manifest, but it could have been anything. I think the route to victory for the party lies in easing Corbyn out along with some of his far left advisors, and building a more pragmatic team retaining people like McDonnell with a clearer anti Brexit policy and a popular platform of redistribution, economic empowerment, boosting prooductivity and improving infrastructure. I don't think they will do this however, and so sadly I think a Labour is screwed, and as a result a chance to take this country in a better direction will be lost.
Excellent post. But who is there around currently to lead a pragmatic progressive party? In other news George Osborne wants to head the IMF......
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
But, Mr G, has your party abandoned you?
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
I wait to see but I do think the Lib Dems have a good chance of taking over the mantle of a pro EU left of centre party and standing fair and square on the ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
I hope so, Mr G, and that they succeed. I've been quite impressed by what I've seen of the leadership candidates.
I would like them to succeed as well. Corbyn's labour needs consigning to history along with his marxist anti west ideals
Yet it was Corbyn who raised the issue of student debt when the Conservatives were intent on making it ever larger.
So he has at least done something positive.
Every opposition party for the last 20 years [Labour, Tory and Lib Dem] has opposed student debt when in opposition. And every government party for the last 20 years [Labour, Tory and Lib Dem] has increased student debt when in government.
With long term damage to the country.
And in particular long term damage to the Conservative party.
Re the polling and possible long term changes in party position, it seems to me that the LD position while promising is precarious and depends on Corbyn. Labour are still the obvious not-Tory choice in most seats and would surely regain a lot of LD tactical votes under a more moderate and anti-Brexit leader. Labour could regain a strong position very quickly under a different leader. THe longer Corbyn stays, the better the longer term prospects for LD as winning or coming second to the Conservatives in many seats at the next election would then make them the obvious non-Tory choice in those seats. LDs need an election with Corbyn still in place and ideally Brexit not resolved.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
If we leave by the next GE, what is Farage's offer ?
To rejoin but leave even harder this time.
If we leave they will have to rebrand as a minimum. More likely Farage goes for a pint and they end up as UKIP2.
Leaving with a deal will leave some unhappy, campaigning to end the deal - but probably not above UKIP's long term polling levels, likely below, depending on the hard-brexitness of the deal. However, that has proved impossible so far.
Leaving with no deal would destroy BP, but then I think the Conservatives will have plenty of other troubles.
No - we abhore fox hunting and cannot support anyone who promotes it, so no votes for Hunt. Indeed my good lady cannot stop saying 'stupid' this morning over Hunts comments
Indeed all our grandchildren would be horrified it they thought we supported fox hunting
Nothing wrong with foxhunting Big G (and Mrs Big G).
Make sure your votes aren't swayed by so trivial an issue.
Nothing trivial about cruelty. The more I read from BigG, the more I'd like to meet him (and his wife).
I can fully respect not feeling able to vote for someone due to one core issue (I've been there). But, BigG, if you can't vote for Hunt and presumably can't vote for Boris (from your previous comments, if I remember correctly) then what is there for you and others like you now in the Conservative party? A hope to get another choice at some point in the future, like some of those in the Labour party?
As I said earlier I will not support fox hunting and will not vote Hunt. I have to decide whether to void my vote or very reluctantly vote for Boris as I have no alternative choice
And I will not abandon my party
I completely and wholeheartedly agree. Fox hunting support is one of those things that has in the past made me feel embarrassed to support the Tories. It is barbaric and should be dead and buried in the past. Why Hunt, May and others feel the need to bring it up is totally beyond me.
And if a journalist asks then give a politicians answer to dismiss the question.
Well given Johnson wanted to introduce it in London so it’s not a differentiator between them.
Source please?
And when? A decade ago when it was a live issue, or now when its an historical oddity.
Daily telegraph posted up or down thread by topping about an hour ago
Comments
All the more reason why a Melenchon positioning is probably the right one for the longer term.
Although I assume the person who came up with that saying was a deluded Corbynista...
But Hunt really is clueless for even suggesting it’s repeal, this looks utterly desperate .
He’s going to lose regardless but at least do it with some dignity .
"It’s apparent as soon as you speak to any Labour figure who is not demented, or as you parse the writings and quarrels of the Corbynite media commentators, that they know that the Corbyn moment is over."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/299d4ada-9da9-11e9-8dd0-924c0ba9bcc8
"But in the last few months something latent in Britain has become manifest, catalysed by Brexit. It is the realisation that we don’t have to choose between the Conservative Party or the Labour Party to govern us in perpetuity. As of this year the “voting Lib Dem/Green/Independent is a wastedvote” is no truer than saying the same of the two traditional governing parties. If anything “vote Boris to stop Corbyn” has less resonance than, say, “vote Lib Dem to stop both of them”. (my bold)
He said that if there was a majority in Parliament (which there isn’t) he would call a vote on it.
If you flip it round - he’s knows there’s a majority but won’t call a vote in case it gets approved - isn’t that much worse?
The Telegraph is misreporting Hunt in a way that helps Boris
There has never been a time when a second vote was about to win and he hasn't backed it, if there isn't the numbers in parliament for a second referendum when Corbyn is voting for it and getting his party to vote for it then it doesn't really matter either way.
If Corbyn isn't going to win an election then Boris and no deal it is, Labour supporters aren't replacing Corbyn before an election.
For one thing if we get another left wing leader in surely that will just encourage the same people to do exactly what they have done to Corbyn and the cycle will continue.
2) We're losing them but there's nothing we can do about it
3) We lost them and there was something we could have done about it but it's far too late now
My wife and I are furious with him. We could not look our grandchildren in the eyes if we voted for fox hunting nor live with our own conscience
rescuing your wife.
The story probably came from Boris's side anyway, just to make sure.
Also it was a bit hypocritical of Rochdale to claim worries about winning the next election when his lot keep attacking the party now, which is much the point.
And I will not abandon my party
The Telegraph is deliberately misleading
We differ on many things but we could be surprised how many things unite us
I have problems with it anyway but my own little thought experiment, imagine you vote for Blair to be PM and enact his policies (which is how a lot of people vote regardless of our system) and then Corbyn takes over straight after the election. It doesn't respect the voters very much..
Personally sounds good but I imagine a lot of people would complain, it would be exactly as shocking the opposite way around.
Plus Labour have a huge membership and the internet to boost our reach, grind our opponents down over multiple elections if we have to.
https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
On top of this there has been a tiresome and intellectually vacuous cult of personality built up around Corbyn, who is not a bad man but whose limitations are manifest to anyone who has held back from the kool-aid.
Brexit and anti semitism have been the issues where these failings have been manifest, but it could have been anything.
I think the route to victory for the party lies in easing Corbyn out along with some of his far left advisors, and building a more pragmatic team retaining people like McDonnell with a clearer anti Brexit policy and a popular platform of redistribution, economic empowerment, boosting prooductivity and improving infrastructure. I don't think they will do this however, and so sadly I think a Labour is screwed, and as a result a chance to take this country in a better direction will be lost.
Fox hunting may seem trivial to many but not our family. We approve of drag hunting and see no reason for foxes to be pursued, terrified, and ripped to pieces
Edit: Also it will seem dodgy to voters, however justified it is.
Brown was well known to be taking over from Blair.
Johnson is a bit more of a surprise but people can understand why someone is replacing May.
Replacing Corbyn immediately after the voting with some random person the vast majority won't know and making them PM is going to look dodgy regardless of how valid it is in our system.
Will they? Unlikely. I think if an election were tomorrow they would actually get ~27%
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10117433/Lets-have-fox-hunting-in-London-says-Boris.html
Sky highlighting extra 20,000 police v Boris and Hunt's crass hunt pledge
As fas as Boris is concerned I do not support him but have to decide between voiding my vote or very reluctantly voting for him
And if a journalist asks then give a politicians answer to dismiss the question.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/aug/29/lord-mcintosh-of-haringey
The UK to declare war on China.
Put the GREAT back in Britain! Tally Ho!
As I, as a LibDem, began to feel during the Coalition years.
The Conservative position is more tricky, I think. Boris might regain some Brexit party voters (and again, more might vote tactically Conservative to keep out Labour or LD) but Brexit looks set to be either a disapointment for many (not doing no deal) or pretty much a disaster (doing no deal) or both (no deal disaster followed by reality biting and a deal being done). But any attempt to regain Brexit voters will severely test the loyalty of more moderate members and voters who might be tempted by LD.
Hilary Benn on Sky arguing that labour now support a referendum and will campaign to remain when many in labour and especially in the leadership do not.
Too little, too late and if voters want the real thing to stop brexit the Lib Dems are the party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv0HJm5UbPw
To rejoin but leave even harder this time.
If we leave they will have to rebrand as a minimum. More likely Farage goes for a pint and they end up as UKIP2.
And when? A decade ago when it was a live issue, or now when its an historical oddity.
So he has at least done something positive.
Pretending it can somehow turn into a centre-left party free of all this is for the birds. Trying to out LibDem the LibDems is not a viable strategy.
Its core vote is with left wing trade unionists and the ethnic minorities, both of which are socially conservative constituencies. Economic left and social conservative is the widely perceived gap in our politics, which only Labour can fill.
So Nandy and Mann and Flint and co. are right.
The problem this presents - in the short term - is that the party is on the wrong side from its members. How this plays out remains to be seen.
I may need a cold shower.
And in particular long term damage to the Conservative party.
Leaving with no deal would destroy BP, but then I think the Conservatives will have plenty of other troubles.