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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A reminder of how well each pollster did at last month’s Euros

SystemSystem Posts: 12,171
edited June 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A reminder of how well each pollster did at last month’s Euros

With the Tory leadership race taking place and the unique situation where party members will be electing a new PM there’s increasing focus on the polls and the possibility that the new leader could seek to call a general election.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    First like Remain!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Last like Newcastle United.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    One day someone will do their Psychology PhD on why grown men do "First!" posts on new forum threads.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    A late Autumn election might be best for everyone. There aren't the votes for anything in this parliament so sans proroguing, nothing will get through.
    Greening, Lee and Grieve sacrificing their Tory careers could well be the best route out to break the deadlock.
    People might not like the future parliament either but it'll probably give us the votes for either a revocation/another referendum or just to leave come what may.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Dadge said:

    One day someone will do their Psychology PhD on why grown men do "First!" posts on new forum threads.

    In the old days, the mods used to have a test post, which they'd delete an hour or so later, consequently buggering up all the post numbers. Jumpers for goalposts.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Dadge said:

    One day someone will do their Psychology PhD on why grown men do "First!" posts on new forum threads.

    It's to let everyone else know that they made the first post on the thread.

    Can I have some research money, please?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,900
    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Endillion said:

    Dadge said:

    One day someone will do their Psychology PhD on why grown men do "First!" posts on new forum threads.

    It's to let everyone else know that they made the first post on the thread.

    Can I have some research money, please?
    @Dadge is one of the best odds on bettors here so follow him and you'll make some..
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Polling of Tory members. There is a problem here, isn't there?

    A third of the party joined in the past year. Whether entryists or not, they presumably differ in their thinking from longer-established members.

    The panels are, one imagines, already full to the brim with old-school Conservative members, so will miss out the entryists.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2019

    Polling of Tory members. There is a problem here, isn't there?


    Guess so. The Kippers in particular have been joining in droves exactly for this moment.

    Both major parties will probably be looking to defend themselves against this better in future.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Plaudits to Ipsos Mori on this occasion. Have any of the long-term pollsters never come out best in this sort of comparison?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    H

    Last like Newcastle United.

    Sheffield United and Norwich will save you that pain. 3rd from bottom though....
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited June 2019
    StuartDickson said:

    Panelbase have now published the detailed tables from yesterday’s Sunday Times poll of Scottish voters (sample: 1,024). Great poll for the SLDs who have the only statistically significant change in VI.

    Westminster VI - Scotland
    SNP 38% (nc)
    Con 18% (nc)
    Lab 17% (-2)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Brexit Party 9% (nc)
    Greens 2%
    UKIP <1%
    Change UK <1%

    https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/ST-Tables-for-publication-200619.pdf

    ElectoralCalculus gives following seat distribution:

    SNP 50 seats (+15)
    Lib Dems 5 seats (+1)
    Con 3 seats (-10)
    Lab 1 seat (-6)

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?SCOTCON=18&SCOTLAB=17&SCOTLIB=13&SCOTNAT=38&SCOTBrexit=9&SCOTGreen=2&SCOTUKIP=&type=scotland&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base</p&gt;
    Malcolmg said:
    'Labour well on way to recovery I see '

    In the context of the wider GB polling , those figures are not surprising. On the basis of the weekend polls which showed Labour on 26% , their GB share has dropped 14% since 2017. Panelbase shows a 10% drop in Scotland.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    Talking of firsts...

    What was the rhyming slang for a 2:1?

    A First was a Geoff (Hurst)

    A 2:2 was a Desmond

    A Third was a Douglas (Hurd)

    But was a 2:1?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    'Bottler Boris' isn't very good. Too hackneyed and the wrong connotations. No-one thinks Boris is like Gordon Brown, you'd be hard-pressed to think of two more different people.

    'Frit Boris' might be better. The faithful would pick up the echo.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Pulpstar said:

    (FPT)Farage has about 20% of the electorate who wish to vote for the Brexit party at the next election. What he does or doesn't do is as important as any of the other (Or presumptive other) actors leading the parties with substantial support and/or seat potential in the next GE - Corbyn, Johnson, Swinson, Sturgeon & Foster...

    I don’t disagree. But from the POV of the Tories, any proposed electoral pact is mischief making, and very much to their future disadvantage.
    And if we’re talking about a snap election, wholly impractical to agree nationally; the rushed negotiations would be incredibly divisive.

    I don’t particularly care about the Conservative party, but nor do I wish to see it supplanted (or taken over) by a Faragist vehicle.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    malcolmg said:

    Panelbase have now published the detailed tables from yesterday’s Sunday Times poll of Scottish voters (sample: 1,024). Great poll for the SLDs who have the only statistically significant change in VI.

    Westminster VI - Scotland
    SNP 38% (nc)
    Con 18% (nc)
    Lab 17% (-2)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Brexit Party 9% (nc)
    Greens 2%
    UKIP <1%
    Change UK <1%

    https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/ST-Tables-for-publication-200619.pdf

    ElectoralCalculus gives following seat distribution:

    SNP 50 seats (+15)
    Lib Dems 5 seats (+1)
    Con 3 seats (-10)
    Lab 1 seat (-6)

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?SCOTCON=18&amp;SCOTLAB=17&amp;SCOTLIB=13&amp;SCOTNAT=38&amp;SCOTBrexit=9&amp;SCOTGreen=2&amp;SCOTUKIP=&amp;type=scotland&amp;display=AllChanged&amp;regorseat=(none)&amp;boundary=2017base&lt;/p&gt;

    Labour well on way to recovery I see
    SLab look well and truly shafted. Unbelievably weak leadership in Scotland, unfit to govern in London, and 10 points down on UK GE 2017, with another UK GE imminent. Add in demotivated, talentless, decimated ground troops and they are about to lie back and think of England.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Where is Rafa off to? Jim White reckons LFC with Klopp to Barca!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    malcolmg said:

    Panelbase have now published the detailed tables from yesterday’s Sunday Times poll of Scottish voters (sample: 1,024). Great poll for the SLDs who have the only statistically significant change in VI.

    Westminster VI - Scotland
    SNP 38% (nc)
    Con 18% (nc)
    Lab 17% (-2)
    Lib Dem 13% (+3)
    Brexit Party 9% (nc)
    Greens 2%
    UKIP <1%
    Change UK <1%

    https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/ST-Tables-for-publication-200619.pdf

    ElectoralCalculus gives following seat distribution:

    SNP 50 seats (+15)
    Lib Dems 5 seats (+1)
    Con 3 seats (-10)
    Lab 1 seat (-6)

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?SCOTCON=18&amp;SCOTLAB=17&amp;SCOTLIB=13&amp;SCOTNAT=38&amp;SCOTBrexit=9&amp;SCOTGreen=2&amp;SCOTUKIP=&amp;type=scotland&amp;display=AllChanged&amp;regorseat=(none)&amp;boundary=2017base&lt;/p&gt;

    Labour well on way to recovery I see
    SLab look well and truly shafted. Unbelievably weak leadership in Scotland, unfit to govern in London, and 10 points down on UK GE 2017, with another UK GE imminent. Add in demotivated, talentless, decimated ground troops and they are about to lie back and think of England.
    Neck and neck with the Tories. I noticed that the Survation subsample came up with - SNP 35 Lab 24 Con 8.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    dixiedean said:

    Where is Rafa off to? Jim White reckons LFC with Klopp to Barca!

    China.

    Well he’s been offered a £12 million a year deal out there but Rafa wants to remain in England/or a big European league.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    stodge said:

    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.

    Election campaigns were much shorter in those days - in both 1974 elections there was only 3 weeks from announcement to polling day.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited June 2019

    'Bottler Boris' isn't very good. Too hackneyed and the wrong connotations. No-one thinks Boris is like Gordon Brown, you'd be hard-pressed to think of two more different people.

    'Frit Boris' might be better. The faithful would pick up the echo.

    Jellyfish Johnson.


    Drifts with the tide, and you can see right through him.

    Occasionally venomous.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    Wasn't expecting this from publicity shy Paddy Power

    https://twitter.com/paddypower/status/1143130190966611968
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    Where is Rafa off to? Jim White reckons LFC with Klopp to Barca!

    China.

    Well he’s been offered a £12 million a year deal out there but Rafa wants to remain in England/or a big European league.
    Does he still live on the Wirral? Know he has a pad in Gosforth.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Where is Rafa off to? Jim White reckons LFC with Klopp to Barca!

    China.

    Well he’s been offered a £12 million a year deal out there but Rafa wants to remain in England/or a big European league.
    Does he still live on the Wirral? Know he has a pad in Gosforth.
    He does, his wife and daughters still live on the Wirral.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    'Bottler Boris' isn't very good. Too hackneyed and the wrong connotations. No-one thinks Boris is like Gordon Brown, you'd be hard-pressed to think of two more different people.

    'Frit Boris' might be better. The faithful would pick up the echo.

    Doesn't start with a Bee.

    I like 'Jitters Johnson'.

    Or 'Barking Boris'.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Polling of Tory members. There is a problem here, isn't there?

    A third of the party joined in the past year. Whether entryists or not, they presumably differ in their thinking from longer-established members.

    The panels are, one imagines, already full to the brim with old-school Conservative members, so will miss out the entryists.

    Or vice versa.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,903
    stodge said:

    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.

    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,391
    edited June 2019

    stodge said:

    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.

    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.
    Boris has thought this through like a master tactician then?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    stodge said:

    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.

    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.
    Fraught with danger I would have thought...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Polling of Tory members. There is a problem here, isn't there?

    A third of the party joined in the past year. Whether entryists or not, they presumably differ in their thinking from longer-established members.

    The panels are, one imagines, already full to the brim with old-school Conservative members, so will miss out the entryists.

    I caught a segment on TV last week (forget which channel) and they had rounded up 3 Tory members to speak about the leadership.

    2 women, 1 man. All under 40. The man was a Muslim.

    Highly representative I thought to myself - not.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    stodge said:

    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.

    Thursday October 10th 1974 was my first day at university (I'd voted at home that morning). Can remember almost everything, including staying up all night for the results. 45 years ago.....I'm old.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    edited June 2019
    I'm reminded of Camerons description of UKIP members as "Fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" Looking at the recent polling of Tory members, in particular about giving up the union, economic stability and the Tory party just to secure their precious Brexit, I find I'm seeing the Tory membership that way. How are they any different - I know several will read this so I wonder if they feel the same way about their fellow travellers.

    The country won't tolerate what the Tory membership are demanding, another facet of the total impasse.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Talking of firsts...

    What was the rhyming slang for a 2:1?

    A First was a Geoff (Hurst)

    A 2:2 was a Desmond

    A Third was a Douglas (Hurd)

    But was a 2:1?

    Attila
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2019


    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.

    You might well be right, but if you are that really would be taking a disaster and doing everything in our power to make it much worse. Not only would it maximise the uncertainty so that businesses wouldn't even have a week's notice, it would also mean that there would be zero parliamentary time and no functioning government to set up the emergency legislation, regulatory changes, and international notifications which would be indispensable in the event of a no-deal crash-out.

    In any vaguely rational country it would be unthinkable. But given where we are..
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679

    Talking of firsts...

    What was the rhyming slang for a 2:1?

    A First was a Geoff (Hurst)

    A 2:2 was a Desmond

    A Third was a Douglas (Hurd)

    But was a 2:1?

    Attila
    Thanks.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    As Boris is such a fine hider, perhaps we should have Wally stand against Hunt?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406


    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.

    You might well be right, but if you are that really would be taking a disaster and doing everything in our power to make it much worse. Not only would it maximise the uncertainty so that businesses wouldn't even have a week's notice, it would also mean that there would be zero parliamentary time and no functioning government to set up the emergency legislation, regulatory changes, and international notifications which would be indispensable in the event of a no-deal crash-out.

    In any vaguely rational country it would be unthinkable. But given where we are..
    You can't go into a No Deal Brexit without a lot of legal paperwork which hasn't been done yet. Any idea that we will have an election in October is pie in the sky.

    And I expect the Stop Brexit tactical voting sites are already in progress..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Talking of firsts...

    What was the rhyming slang for a 2:1?

    A First was a Geoff (Hurst)

    A 2:2 was a Desmond

    A Third was a Douglas (Hurd)

    But was a 2:1?

    Attila
    A Monty would rhyme better.

  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Scott_P said:
    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    'Bottler Boris' isn't very good. Too hackneyed and the wrong connotations. No-one thinks Boris is like Gordon Brown, you'd be hard-pressed to think of two more different people.

    'Frit Boris' might be better. The faithful would pick up the echo.

    I think it's quite smart - he's talking about bottling the debates, but he's really saying that Boris won't really dare to go for no-deal in October, which is supposedly Boris's main selling point. Uses a very present issue to tap into the membership priority.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    As Boris is such a fine hider, perhaps we should have Wally stand against Hunt?

    They seek him here, they seek him there ...
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    FPT

    Afternoon all :)

    Just to note - the last time we had an October election was 1974.

    Wilson announced via a live tv and radio address on September 18th he was going to the country and the vote took place on October 10th.

    Curiously, October 10th is a Thursday this year as well but the Conservatives lost the 1974 contest.

    One option might be to call the election for Thursday October 17th so that would mean a truncated Party Conference season and the new Government would have two weeks (and presumably a mandate) to tell the EU what would happen next.

    Thursday October 10th 1974 was my first day at university (I'd voted at home that morning). Can remember almost everything, including staying up all night for the results. 45 years ago.....I'm old.
    I suspect you’re two years younger than me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    kinabalu said:

    'Bottler Boris' isn't very good. Too hackneyed and the wrong connotations. No-one thinks Boris is like Gordon Brown, you'd be hard-pressed to think of two more different people.

    'Frit Boris' might be better. The faithful would pick up the echo.

    Doesn't start with a Bee.

    I like 'Jitters Johnson'.

    Or 'Barking Boris'.
    Or in language he might understand, Boris the Caitiff Recreant.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    'Bottler Boris' isn't very good. Too hackneyed and the wrong connotations. No-one thinks Boris is like Gordon Brown, you'd be hard-pressed to think of two more different people.

    'Frit Boris' might be better. The faithful would pick up the echo.

    Doesn't start with a Bee.

    I like 'Jitters Johnson'.

    Or 'Barking Boris'.
    Or in language he might understand, Boris the Caitiff Recreant.

    Ballsup Boris.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election
    If Parliament votes him down a general election might not happen, we'd have 14 days for someone else to try and cobble together a majority in the Commons.

    Someone like Hillary Benn or Ken Clarke.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    Like Donald Trump there's always a tweet that makes Boris Johnson look like such a hypocrite.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    But that will no stop people complaining (like 2010). The howling will be deafening. May will have to have serious support from her ex cabinet to carry on.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election
    The 22 have no rules they'd need to change. Boris would be Tory leader and May won't be. The 22 have no jurisdiction on anything other than that.

    If she tries to cling on in Parliament rather than resign then Corbyn would table a VONC and Tory MPs could justifiably back it/abstain since the government would not be one led by the party anymore.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,597
    Jonathan said:

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    But that will no stop people complaining (like 2010). The howling will be deafening. May will have to have serious support from her ex cabinet to carry on.
    I'm not sure she particularly needs Cabinet support. She has nothing to lose; and the default position is that she remains in place until either someone can be recommended, or a GE is held, as said above.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election
    If Parliament votes him down a general election might not happen, we'd have 14 days for someone else to try and cobble together a majority in the Commons.

    Someone like Hillary Benn or Ken Clarke.
    That would take about 300 MPs defecting from the Labour and Tory parties.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    That’s not referring to Miliband ducking a debate though is it?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    isam said:

    That’s not referring to Miliband ducking a debate though is it?
    Nope, presumably it's the best Matt Chorley could find :smiley:
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 452
    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election
    The membership are deciding who will be the leader of the Conservative Party. If the person elected by the membership cannot command a majority in the House of Commons they will not be Prime Minister. This isn't a matter of Theresa May overturning the choice of the membership. It is the way our politics works. If the candidate chosen by the membership cannot command a majority they would face an immediate VONC in the Commons. Nothing the membership or the 1922 Committee can do about that. And if Theresa May tells the Queen that her successor as party leader cannot command a majority and recommends seeing if Corbyn can put a government together, there is nothing the 1922 Committee can do about that either.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    I think if Boris is elected and no one resigns the Tory whip - TM will step down. The problem occurs if 2 (or more) MP's resign the whip as Boris is elected - that puts May in a very difficult position.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.

    You might well be right, but if you are that really would be taking a disaster and doing everything in our power to make it much worse. Not only would it maximise the uncertainty so that businesses wouldn't even have a week's notice, it would also mean that there would be zero parliamentary time and no functioning government to set up the emergency legislation, regulatory changes, and international notifications which would be indispensable in the event of a no-deal crash-out.

    In any vaguely rational country it would be unthinkable. But given where we are..
    Whatever happened to the Henry VIII powers to smooth regulatory changes that were mooted?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Jonathan said:

    But that will no stop people complaining (like 2010). The howling will be deafening. May will have to have serious support from her ex cabinet to carry on.

    We are in uncharted waters here, but bear in mind that it's ultimately the Queen who appoints the new PM, on the advice of the outgoing PM and if necessary palace officials. The test that the palace will apply is who can command a majority. If it looks as though no-one can, which seems quite possible, then it's unclear what happens (especially with the complication of the Fixed-Term Parliament Act), but the default is that the existing PM remains in post.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Perusing Ladbrokes. Boris is 9 to withdraw. Not tempted myself but I know some here think he might.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Perusing Ladbrokes. Boris is 9 to withdraw. Not tempted myself but I know some here think he might.

    Shadsy's Christmas Bonus fund.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    eek said:

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    I think if Boris is elected and no one resigns the Tory whip - TM will step down. The problem occurs if 2 (or more) MP's resign the whip as Boris is elected - that puts May in a very difficult position.
    2 is not enough, probably need closer to 10.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821


    It'll either be the 17th or the 24th. Simply put the Tories won't have the votes to do anything at all, hence the need for a fresh mandate. The idea being that wets like Grieve will either (a) be deselected or (b) be outvoted post election.

    As for renegotiation, what renegotiation? The Tory pitch will be "vote Conservative this Thursday (24th) and we leave the EU next Thursday (31st). That way the train leavers mentioned in the tweet all vote Tory instead of Farage to get it done.

    You might well be right, but if you are that really would be taking a disaster and doing everything in our power to make it much worse. Not only would it maximise the uncertainty so that businesses wouldn't even have a week's notice, it would also mean that there would be zero parliamentary time and no functioning government to set up the emergency legislation, regulatory changes, and international notifications which would be indispensable in the event of a no-deal crash-out.

    In any vaguely rational country it would be unthinkable. But given where we are..
    Whatever happened to the Henry VIII powers to smooth regulatory changes that were mooted?
    Even Henry VIII needed more than a week!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    That's three proven liars whose evidence we are asked to choose between
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679

    Perusing Ladbrokes. Boris is 9 to withdraw. Not tempted myself but I know some here think he might.

    Shadsy was offering 10/1 on Andrea Leadsom withdrawing one day before she did.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,573
    Scott_P said:
    Very interesting. Hilary Benn or Kenneth Clarke may be as likely as JC to find a majority, in both cases as a GNU. Suspect there are lots of people who would be delighted to be party to stopping Boris running the country - about as many as there are determined to stop JC doing so.

    Could a moderate tradition pull us back from the brink before we become the USA?

  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    eek said:

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    I think if Boris is elected and no one resigns the Tory whip - TM will step down. The problem occurs if 2 (or more) MP's resign the whip as Boris is elected - that puts May in a very difficult position.
    2 is not enough, probably need closer to 10.
    What is today's Tory Government majority (isn't it 3)...
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I actually think Boris is being badly advised in not doing the debates.

    To be honest I dont think much of his strategist.

    All Boris is doing is reinforcing he has something to hide. He is giving politicians a bad name!

    His inadequecy for leadership of the country is glearingly obvious. Hunt is by far the best candidate. I would advise any Tory member to vote for Hunt...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    kinabalu said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    As Boris is such a fine hider, perhaps we should have Wally stand against Hunt?

    They seek him here, they seek him there ...
    This is not doing Hunt any good. He needs to think about spending some of his squillions on advertising, otherwise he is just letting Boris run down the clock.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    Perusing Ladbrokes. Boris is 9 to withdraw. Not tempted myself but I know some here think he might.

    Shadsy was offering 10/1 on Andrea Leadsom withdrawing one day before she did.
    Surely Gove at 180 is a better trading option...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Very interesting. Hilary Benn or Kenneth Clarke may be as likely as JC to find a majority, in both cases as a GNU. Suspect there are lots of people who would be delighted to be party to stopping Boris running the country - about as many as there are determined to stop JC doing so.

    Could a moderate tradition pull us back from the brink before we become the USA?

    400 MPs willing to ditch their own careers and able to agree amongst themselves that today is Monday. Good luck finding those unicorns.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    eek said:

    Perusing Ladbrokes. Boris is 9 to withdraw. Not tempted myself but I know some here think he might.

    Shadsy was offering 10/1 on Andrea Leadsom withdrawing one day before she did.
    Surely Gove at 180 is a better trading option...
    No, if cowardly Boris Johnson did pull out then Jeremy Hunt wins as per the precedent set in 2016.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Dadge said:

    One day someone will do their Psychology PhD on why grown men do "First!" posts on new forum threads.

    That'll be a first.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Eagles, I would be surprised if Boris' self-awareness could break free of the all-consuming gravity exerted by his ego.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    eek said:

    Perusing Ladbrokes. Boris is 9 to withdraw. Not tempted myself but I know some here think he might.

    Shadsy was offering 10/1 on Andrea Leadsom withdrawing one day before she did.
    Surely Gove at 180 is a better trading option...
    No, if cowardly Boris Johnson did pull out then Jeremy Hunt wins as per the precedent set in 2016.
    Has anyone checked the 1922 rules governing this contest?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Pulpstar said:

    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.

    That's probably right. If however the DUP were to pop up and say 'Never! Never! Never!', then we'd be in a different situation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    kinabalu said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    As Boris is such a fine hider, perhaps we should have Wally stand against Hunt?

    They seek him here, they seek him there ...
    Though Sir Percy was notoriously faithful...
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Pulpstar said:

    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.

    That's probably right. If however the DUP were to pop up and say 'Never! Never! Never!', then we'd be in a different situation.
    The irony is that Boris is best off being VONC'ed into an election, isn't he?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Very interesting. Hilary Benn or Kenneth Clarke may be as likely as JC to find a majority, in both cases as a GNU. Suspect there are lots of people who would be delighted to be party to stopping Boris running the country - about as many as there are determined to stop JC doing so.

    Could a moderate tradition pull us back from the brink before we become the USA?

    Tribal loyalties have a remarkable power in stopping people vote for what they would themselves want, though.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    Pulpstar said:

    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.

    That's probably right. If however the DUP were to pop up and say 'Never! Never! Never!', then we'd be in a different situation.
    The irony is that Boris is best off being VONC'ed into an election, isn't he?
    It's a way out for frankly everyone ^_^;;
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    eek said:

    eek said:

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    I think if Boris is elected and no one resigns the Tory whip - TM will step down. The problem occurs if 2 (or more) MP's resign the whip as Boris is elected - that puts May in a very difficult position.
    2 is not enough, probably need closer to 10.
    What is today's Tory Government majority (isn't it 3)...
    Around that officially (3 or 4?) but effective majority a bit bigger.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    edited June 2019
    For the LOLs Sinn Fein should turn up and take their seats on July 22nd.

    Edit - For epic trolling they should take their seats on July 12th,
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    I'd like to see a market on how many Tory MPs resign the whip/defect/VONC their own government this year.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Pulpstar said:

    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.

    That's probably right. If however the DUP were to pop up and say 'Never! Never! Never!', then we'd be in a different situation.
    The irony is that Boris is best off being VONC'ed into an election, isn't he?
    I think so. It gives him the excuse he needs to deselect the hardline Remainers.

    So anyone who votes against him is committing career suicide. The whole thing this becomes a high stakes game of chicken. On present form, Johnson is ill equipped to win.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.

    That's probably right. If however the DUP were to pop up and say 'Never! Never! Never!', then we'd be in a different situation.
    The irony is that Boris is best off being VONC'ed into an election, isn't he?
    It's a way out for frankly everyone ^_^;;
    It's a way in for some of us :blush:
  • JameiJamei Posts: 59

    Polling of Tory members. There is a problem here, isn't there?

    A third of the party joined in the past year. Whether entryists or not, they presumably differ in their thinking from longer-established members.

    The panels are, one imagines, already full to the brim with old-school Conservative members, so will miss out the entryists.

    New Tory member here, joined last September. I'm not even 40 yet, voted remain but not that bothered about Brexit, I joined to choose a leader who can stop Corbyn. Previously voted LibDem in more than one election, so I'm certainly not an entryist Farage supporter. Briefly looked into joining the ConHome panel but couldn't see how to do so.

    If it wasn't for Brexit I'd be voting for Hunt but genuinely undecided at the moment.

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Jamei said:

    Polling of Tory members. There is a problem here, isn't there?

    A third of the party joined in the past year. Whether entryists or not, they presumably differ in their thinking from longer-established members.

    The panels are, one imagines, already full to the brim with old-school Conservative members, so will miss out the entryists.

    New Tory member here, joined last September. I'm not even 40 yet, voted remain but not that bothered about Brexit, I joined to choose a leader who can stop Corbyn. Previously voted LibDem in more than one election, so I'm certainly not an entryist Farage supporter. Briefly looked into joining the ConHome panel but couldn't see how to do so.

    If it wasn't for Brexit I'd be voting for Hunt but genuinely undecided at the moment.

    Welcome @Jamei, on both fronts.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I expect when push and shove come all Tories less perhaps Lee (The sole abstention ?) will allow Boris to become PM - but several will reserve the right to VONC should he go for "No deal".

    The renegotiation fiction will hold for kissing hands.

    That's probably right. If however the DUP were to pop up and say 'Never! Never! Never!', then we'd be in a different situation.
    The irony is that Boris is best off being VONC'ed into an election, isn't he?
    It's a way out for frankly everyone ^_^;;
    It's a way in for some of us :blush:
    Do you anticipate standing again?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited June 2019

    Jonathan said:

    But that will no stop people complaining (like 2010). The howling will be deafening. May will have to have serious support from her ex cabinet to carry on.

    We are in uncharted waters here, but bear in mind that it's ultimately the Queen who appoints the new PM, on the advice of the outgoing PM and if necessary palace officials. The test that the palace will apply is who can command a majority. If it looks as though no-one can, which seems quite possible, then it's unclear what happens (especially with the complication of the Fixed-Term Parliament Act), but the default is that the existing PM remains in post.
    The responsibility of May (and indeed the new Tory leader and others) is to avoid putting the Queen in a difficult position. May should only resign when she has a clear successor as PM.

    I would hope that whoever becomes Tory leader quickly stomps on any howls of conspiracy and thanks May publicly for providing the space for him to form a government.

    Fat chance of that if it's Boris and the crazy gang. But it's a nice idea.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    eek said:

    eek said:

    kjohnw said:

    Theresa May will not overturn the choice of the Tory Membership, if she tries this, she will find the 22 committee quickly changes the rules on VONC on her and we will have PM Boris and if parlaiment votes him down then we have a General Election

    It wouldn't be her 'trying' anything, it is the constitutional position that a new PM is appointed only if it looks as though he or she will command the confidence of the House. Until such a person emerges, the previous PM remains in post, as per 2010. And it has zilch to do with the 1922 committee.
    I think if Boris is elected and no one resigns the Tory whip - TM will step down. The problem occurs if 2 (or more) MP's resign the whip as Boris is elected - that puts May in a very difficult position.
    2 is not enough, probably need closer to 10.
    What is today's Tory Government majority (isn't it 3)...
    Around that officially (3 or 4?) but effective majority a bit bigger.
    The issue is that not all independents/CHUK will vote down the Government. Nobody knows how many will, but some will be thinking they will be out of a job by autumn.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    Brom said:
    Who's Gavin Esler?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Very interesting. Hilary Benn or Kenneth Clarke may be as likely as JC to find a majority, in both cases as a GNU. Suspect there are lots of people who would be delighted to be party to stopping Boris running the country - about as many as there are determined to stop JC doing so.

    Could a moderate tradition pull us back from the brink before we become the USA?

    Tribal loyalties have a remarkable power in stopping people vote for what they would themselves want, though.

    Glad to see the Cabinet officials catching up with us on PB :smiley: We've been debating this for days!
This discussion has been closed.