Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
The word “deals” in David’s article is the key here. After the appallingly incompetent May the UK desperately needs a PM with at least C-grade dealmaking abilities.
In Boris we are about to get another big fat “F” on our exam results. Nothing about his history indicates an ability to stretch out a hand and build mutual trust. Heck, according to Michael Gove the man cannot even remember a conversation the following day! How can you build a deal with a man whose brain just cannot store key information?
May got a Deal with the EU, the Withdrawal Agreement but in a hung parliament Labour, the LDs and SNP will never back it because it is a 'Tory Brexit' as has been proved and neither will the DUP because of the backstop.
Therefore in reality the only way any Deal is going to pass the Commons under a Tory PM is with a Tory majority and with a Tory leader seen as enough of a Leaver to command the confidence of the ERG in terms of the future relationship. That means Boris and remember Boris did actually vote for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3. He is not a Steve Baker or Mark Francois No Deal diehard, nor even the most hardline Brexiteer left in the race, that is Dominic Raab
Full of inaccuracies and partial truths, but I’ll just quickly point out one: according to our very own expert Yokel, the DUP didn’t vote against the WA because of the backstop but rather because it was guaranteed to lose in the house. Some principles your buddies have! How much Magic Money Tree did they cost again?
Nothing
(The funds aren’t paid while Stormont is suspended)
I think that only relates to the portion where Stormont has discretion?
You may be right
As I recall £1 bn was committed and another £500m for Stormont to spend
I had understood it was all if the form of an increase in the Stormont budget but didn’t look into the details
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
The word “deals” in David’s article is the key here. After the appallingly incompetent May the UK desperately needs a PM with at least C-grade dealmaking abilities.
In Boris we are about to get another big fat “F” on our exam results. Nothing about his history indicates an ability to stretch out a hand and build mutual trust. Heck, according to Michael Gove the man cannot even remember a conversation the following day! How can you build a deal with a man whose brain just cannot store key information?
May got a Deal with the EU, the Withdrawal Agreement but in a hung parliament Labour, the LDs and SNP will never back it because it is a 'Tory Brexit' as has been proved and neither will the DUP because of the backstop.
Therefore in reality the only way any Deal is going to pass the Commons under a Tory PM is with a Tory majority and with a Tory leader seen as enough of a Leaver to command the confidence of the ERG in terms of the future relationship. That means Boris and remember Boris did actually vote for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3. He is not a Steve Baker or Mark Francois No Deal diehard, nor even the most hardline Brexiteer left in the race, that is Dominic Raab
Full of inaccuracies and partial truths, but I’ll just quickly point out one: according to our very own expert Yokel, the DUP didn’t vote against the WA because of the backstop but rather because it was guaranteed to lose in the house. Some principles your buddies have! How much Magic Money Tree did they cost again?
Nothing
(The funds aren’t paid while Stormont is suspended)
I think that only relates to the portion where Stormont has discretion?
You may be right
As I recall £1 bn was committed and another £500m for Stormont to spend
So, to date, the DUP bribe has cost taxpayers 1.5 billion. And what have the Tories got out of it? Bugger all. In fact worse than bugger all. The DUP deal may go down in history books as the beginning of the end of one of the world’s most successful political parties.
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
The words “sensible” and “Tories”: a great oxymoron.
I am no fan of either May or especially the DUP but never quite understood the fuss about NI getting a few extra quid. It is one of the poorest parts of the country and has more problems than any other part. Seems perfectly reasonable both for the local party there to lobby for their constituents and for the govt to provide additional funding.
So you are happy with bribes, the Westminster government breaking all normal rules to induce a bunch of clowns to prop up their rotten regime. How very Tory.
The word “deals” in David’s article is the key here. After the appallingly incompetent May the UK desperately needs a PM with at least C-grade dealmaking abilities.
In Boris we are about to get another big fat “F” on our exam results. Nothing about his history indicates an ability to stretch out a hand and build mutual trust. Heck, according to Michael Gove the man cannot even remember a conversation the following day! How can you build a deal with a man whose brain just cannot store key information?
May got a Deal with the EU, the Withdrawal Agreement but in a hung parliament Labour, the LDs and SNP will never back it because it is a 'Tory Brexit' as has been proved and neither will the DUP because of the backstop.
Therefore in reality the only way any Deal is going to pass the Commons under a Tory PM is with a Tory majority and with a Tory leader seen as enough of a Leaver to command the confidence of the ERG in terms of the future relationship. That means Boris and remember Boris did actually vote for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3. He is not a Steve Baker or Mark Francois No Deal diehard, nor even the most hardline Brexiteer left in the race, that is Dominic Raab
Full of inaccuracies and partial truths, but I’ll just quickly point out one: according to our very own expert Yokel, the DUP didn’t vote against the WA because of the backstop but rather because it was guaranteed to lose in the house. Some principles your buddies have! How much Magic Money Tree did they cost again?
Nothing
(The funds aren’t paid while Stormont is suspended)
I think that only relates to the portion where Stormont has discretion?
You may be right
As I recall £1 bn was committed and another £500m for Stormont to spend
So, to date, the DUP bribe has cost taxpayers 1.5 billion. And what have the Tories got out of it? Bugger all. In fact worse than bugger all. The DUP deal may go down in history books as the beginning of the end of one of the world’s most successful political parties.
The UUP was effective in its time as well.
Not sure it is correct to say it has cost taxpayers £1.5b. The money is being spent in NI on public projects and has presumably simply been reallocated from public projects elsewhere.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
I just love it when wealthy, politically connected London based people disparage the London Focuseed Elite.
The word “deals” in David’s article is the key here. After the appallingly incompetent May the UK desperately needs a PM with at least C-grade dealmaking abilities.
In Boris we are about to get another big fat “F” on our exam results. Nothing about his history indicates an ability to stretch out a hand and build mutual trust. Heck, according to Michael Gove the man cannot even remember a conversation the following day! How can you build a deal with a man whose brain just cannot store key information?
May got a Deal with the EU, the Withdrawal Agreement but in a hung parliament Labour, the LDs and SNP will never back it because it is a 'Tory Brexit' as has been proved and neither will the DUP because of the backstop.
Therefore in reality the only way any Deal is going to pass the Commons under a Tory PM is with a Tory majority and with a Tory leader seen as enough of a Leaver to command the confidence of the ERG in terms of the future relationship. That means Boris and remember Boris did actually vote for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3. He is not a Steve Baker or Mark Francois No Deal diehard, nor even the most hardline Brexiteer left in the race, that is Dominic Raab
Full of inaccuracies and partial truths, but I’ll just quickly point out one: according to our very own expert Yokel, the DUP didn’t vote against the WA because of the backstop but rather because it was guaranteed to lose in the house. Some principles your buddies have! How much Magic Money Tree did they cost again?
Nothing
(The funds aren’t paid while Stormont is suspended)
I think that only relates to the portion where Stormont has discretion?
You may be right
As I recall £1 bn was committed and another £500m for Stormont to spend
I had understood it was all if the form of an increase in the Stormont budget but didn’t look into the details
Even if so, spending in NI continues despite Stormont's suspension.
To be fair, you have to question whether the Tory party is really the Tory party when ‘fuck business ‘ is not a bar to the leadership.
Coming to a poster near you.
Johnson's job is to make "fuck business" and the "Vassal State" look like victories. A tall order for the Great Communicator (who isn't actually communicating at the moment). Plenty of rewards if he does.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
I'd ask your man not to open the drinks cabinet until the afternoon, if I were you.
To be fair, you have to question whether the Tory party is really the Tory party when ‘fuck business ‘ is not a bar to the leadership.
Coming to a poster near you.
Businesspeople took note. The Conservative Party, or more likely its successor party, are going to need a couple of decades of detoxification getting over that.
The Lib Dem’s pissing off a bunch of Young Ones with tuition fees is a molehill compared to the Tory breach of trust with British business.
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
The words “sensible” and “Tories”: a great oxymoron.
No they are not. It's a great Party, and if it collapses, as now seems likely, we should all regret it.
One of the more mundane observations of my political life has been that bad governments get away with it when they are not held to account by the Opposition. Whatever Government comes next, we need a decnt Opposition. Who is to provide it? Farage? Lucas? Jo Swinson?
The Tory Party needs to reform and regather its sanity and its strength. We all need it.
I am no fan of either May or especially the DUP but never quite understood the fuss about NI getting a few extra quid. It is one of the poorest parts of the country and has more problems than any other part. Seems perfectly reasonable both for the local party there to lobby for their constituents and for the govt to provide additional funding.
We send NI £115 million a week. Let's fund our NHS instead.
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
A great piece David. And the discussion below just reinforces my belief that Boris will go to the country in October.
If he does he can spike the ambitions of both Farage and Corbyn and buy himself 5 years to deal with the mess that no deal Halloween creates. Or he can wait, not leave on Halloween and watch the Tory party disappear underneath him.
It's a risk - but it's the least risky option surely. He's a populist. He will have the populist line on the single populist issue of the age - and unlike the other populist Farage actually the ability to carry it out. Magic Grandpa will promise only delay - but not actually commit either way to whether we should leave or remain. There is a window of opportunity for Boris - measured in weeks - where he can pull this off. Or wait and die.
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
The words “sensible” and “Tories”: a great oxymoron.
No they are not. It's a great Party, and if it collapses, as now seems likely, we should all regret it.
One of the more mundane observations of my political life has been that bad governments get away with it when they are not held to account by the Opposition. Whatever Government comes next, we need a decnt Opposition. Who is to provide it? Farage? Lucas? Jo Swinson?
The Tory Party needs to reform and regather its sanity and its strength. We all need it.
Excellent post.
Hopefully the Liberals now they are back in the game will provide a sensible sane pole around which others can gather.
To be fair, you have to question whether the Tory party is really the Tory party when ‘fuck business ‘ is not a bar to the leadership.
Coming to a poster near you.
Businesspeople took note. The Conservative Party, or more likely its successor party, are going to need a couple of decades of detoxification getting over that.
The Lib Dem’s pissing off a bunch of Young Ones with tuition fees is a molehill compared to the Tory breach of trust with British business.
The endorsement of the ‘fuck business’ mantra by Tories electing him as their leader takes it to a new level. The opposition need to hang that around their neck.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
Who knows? Just think he's entitled to ask the question.
To be fair, you have to question whether the Tory party is really the Tory party when ‘fuck business ‘ is not a bar to the leadership.
Coming to a poster near you.
Businesspeople took note. The Conservative Party, or more likely its successor party, are going to need a couple of decades of detoxification getting over that.
The Lib Dem’s pissing off a bunch of Young Ones with tuition fees is a molehill compared to the Tory breach of trust with British business.
The endorsement of the ‘fuck business’ mantra by Tories electing him as their leader takes it to a new level. The opposition need to hang that around their neck.
Business people don't exactly see the Opposition as being on their side. Most of them will stick with the Tories, or TBP, for now.
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
How we won the Cold War is a bit of a mystery. Much of Europe's population was anti-US back then, as well.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
One of the best and simplest summaries I've read for a while.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
Widely respected voices told us for two years that Boris couldn’t become Conservative leader, and to lay him at 5/1 and bigger, while @HYUFD was lampooned for disagreeing.
Mr. Meeks, perhaps we'll find out if we have a second referendum, but British political polls have not recently been notable for their accuracy.
At the very least the death cult need to accept that the evidence that the general public is ready to pass the Kool Aid is at present lacking, and fake appeals to the will of the people on the subject are easily debunked.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
If Iran was responsible, it may well be rogue hardline elements within the regime, but there are other possibilities. Bolton is itching for his own war.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
One of the best and simplest summaries I've read for a while.
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
How we won the Cold War is a bit of a mystery. Much of Europe's population was anti-US back then, as well.
Also presumably a mystery why the middle east is such a monumental, largely US led clustefuck, given much of Europe's population is anti-US in that regard. Perhaps the take away is that the US does what it wants regardless of support or opposition (though we might retain an iota of self respect by not going all poodly at the sound of our master's voice).
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
How we won the Cold War is a bit of a mystery. Much of Europe's population was anti-US back then, as well.
Also presumably a mystery why the middle east is such a monumental, largely US led clustefuck, given much of Europe's population is anti-US in that regard. Perhaps the take away is that the US does what it wants regardless of support or opposition (though we might retain an iota of self respect by not going all poodly at the sound of our master's voice).
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
To be fair, you have to question whether the Tory party is really the Tory party when ‘fuck business ‘ is not a bar to the leadership.
Coming to a poster near you.
Businesspeople took note. The Conservative Party, or more likely its successor party, are going to need a couple of decades of detoxification getting over that.
The Lib Dem’s pissing off a bunch of Young Ones with tuition fees is a molehill compared to the Tory breach of trust with British business.
The endorsement of the ‘fuck business’ mantra by Tories electing him as their leader takes it to a new level. The opposition need to hang that around their neck.
Business people don't exactly see the Opposition as being on their side. Most of them will stick with the Tories, or TBP, for now.
I think that is a dangerous assumption. I remember watching a Brexiter say that no deal is fine as business will adapt. The reality is that business will adapt but much of the adaption will be bad for the UK. As with many other businesses my company is now actively investing outside the UK. It will take time and a lot of persuasion before we come back to see the UK as a good place to invest.
I am a natural Tory voter but did not vote at the euros and would only vote Tory in the Scottish and possibly council elections now.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
One of the best and simplest summaries I've read for a while.
Yes, I agree.
It is a patent and boring distortion of the truth. Comparing like with like, you can either contrast OLV with ORV or you can contrast LFL with MFL.* What you can't do is mix and match so as to produce the illusion of tens of millions of sans culottes having their faces ground into the dirt by a tiny cabal.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
If Iran was responsible, it may well be rogue hardline elements within the regime, but there are other possibilities. Bolton is itching for his own war.
One of the films I most enjoyed about the Cold War was By Dawn's Early Light, in which rogue elements in the Soviet Union try to engineer a clash with the USA to frustrate Glasnost.
One of the most best parts of the film is where the Soviet President contacts his US counterpart to explain that Soviet missiles are expected to kill 6 - 9 million people in the US, and that retaliation on a similar scale "is acceptable to us" but that any greater retaliation will result in full-scale hostilities. The US President then has to decide whether to go for this limited retaliation, or initiate full-scale hostilities.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
If Iran was responsible, it may well be rogue hardline elements within the regime, but there are other possibilities. Bolton is itching for his own war.
One of the films I most enjoyed about the Cold War was By Dawn's Early Light, in which rogue elements in the Soviet Union try to engineer a clash with the USA to frustrate Glasnost.
One of the most best parts of the film is where the Soviet President contacts his US counterpart to explain that Soviet missiles are expected to kill 6 - 9 million people in the US, and that retaliation on a similar scale "is acceptable to us" but that any greater retaliation will result in full-scale hostilities. The US President then has to decide whether to go for this limited retaliation, or initiate full-scale hostilities.
Now imagine that Russian president is ringing Trump or Boris in London.
A great piece David. And the discussion below just reinforces my belief that Boris will go to the country in October.
If he does he can spike the ambitions of both Farage and Corbyn and buy himself 5 years to deal with the mess that no deal Halloween creates. Or he can wait, not leave on Halloween and watch the Tory party disappear underneath him.
It's a risk - but it's the least risky option surely. He's a populist. He will have the populist line on the single populist issue of the age - and unlike the other populist Farage actually the ability to carry it out. Magic Grandpa will promise only delay - but not actually commit either way to whether we should leave or remain. There is a window of opportunity for Boris - measured in weeks - where he can pull this off. Or wait and die.
Makes sense. The hypothetical is Johnson's strong suit. So get the election out the way before he has to deal with reality.
So the FCO says it looks like Iranian attack, but Labour says no evidence.
As much as I enjoyed it (until I cracked up) Iraq demonstrates that JC's scepticism is well judged.
Corbyn's scepticism is backed up by the German FM incidentally. The US State Department has an agenda and its story has holes in it. Doesn't mean the Iranians didn't attack the ships however, just that there's significant doubt.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
If Iran was responsible, it may well be rogue hardline elements within the regime, but there are other possibilities. Bolton is itching for his own war.
Bolton is extremely dangerous. I would imagine a war with a nation the US people see as a rogue state could bolster an incumbent President in the last year of his first term. Maybe Trump isn't that cynical however there are those around him who might be.
A good article, as so often by the New Yorker. The point of Boris's unhappy childhood in Brussels was new to me. It explains both his dislike of the place and also his own inability to sustain lasting relationships. The contrast between Livingstone's and Johnson's legacies as London mayors too. Red Ken is a deeply flawed person, but as an apparatchik actually achieved quite a lot for the city. Boris? not much apart from better comedy.
The EU is not Brussels.
Of course not, but it was the reason that Boris spent his childhood there.
I spent age 5 - 12 in Bruxelles and liked it. Boris went to the British School and I went to the local ecole primaire. Maybe that's the difference.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
I just love it when wealthy, politically connected London based people disparage the London Focuseed Elite.
We’ve always worked in London but never been “of London”. We’re West Country folk and always will be.
The word “deals” in David’s article is the key here. After the appallingly incompetent May the UK desperately needs a PM with at least C-grade dealmaking abilities.
In Boris we are about to get another big fat “F” on our exam results. Nothing about his history indicates an ability to stretch out a hand and build mutual trust. Heck, according to Michael Gove the man cannot even remember a conversation the following day! How can you build a deal with a man whose brain just cannot store key information?
May got a Deal with the EU, the Withdrawal Agreement but in a hung parliament Labour, the LDs and SNP will never back it because it is a 'Tory Brexit' as has been proved and neither will the DUP because of the backstop.
Therefore in reality the only way any Deal is going to pass the Commons under a Tory PM is with a Tory majority and with a Tory leader seen as enough of a Leaver to command the confidence of the ERG in terms of the future relationship. That means Boris and remember Boris did actually vote for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3. He is not a Steve Baker or Mark Francois No Deal diehard, nor even the most hardline Brexiteer left in the race, that is Dominic Raab
Full of inaccuracies and partial truths, but I’ll just quickly point out one: according to our very own expert Yokel, the DUP didn’t vote against the WA because of the backstop but rather because it was guaranteed to lose in the house. Some principles your buddies have! How much Magic Money Tree did they cost again?
Nothing
(The funds aren’t paid while Stormont is suspended)
I think that only relates to the portion where Stormont has discretion?
You may be right
As I recall £1 bn was committed and another £500m for Stormont to spend
I had understood it was all if the form of an increase in the Stormont budget but didn’t look into the details
Even if so, spending in NI continues despite Stormont's suspension.
Yes but I believe the increase is dependent on ratification of the new budget by Stormont.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
I just love it when wealthy, politically connected London based people disparage the London Focuseed Elite.
We’ve always worked in London but never been “of London”. We’re West Country folk and always will be.
West country starts at Exeter. You are central southern.
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
Is it not possible that the people of Peterborough do not love the Nigel as much as you do, and that Labour won fair and square?
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
It seems odd that Tehran would torpedo/limpet mine/drone strike Japanese tankers while Abe is making a visit. If Iran actually did it that would suggest a very high risk double bluff.
If Iran was responsible, it may well be rogue hardline elements within the regime, but there are other possibilities. Bolton is itching for his own war.
Why did French Secret Services secretly blow up the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand?. They did it to send a message, which is hard to do secretly. These people are messed up. It's the same situation this time if the Iranians are involved.
Mr. Isam, that's quite a story. If we had another by-election I wonder what the odds would be.
“Conservative city councillor Shazia Bashir, who was formerly a Labour supporter, alleged to the PT that a few years ago she had seen electoral fraud first-hand in Eastern European and Asian areas of the city and firmly believes it still happens now.
She also claimed voters are told to take photographs to prove who they voted for, even though polling stations display signs stating that photography is forbidden.“
Tory party have taken leave of their senses. What they see in boris is beyond me.
The media hate him, remainers hate him, yet another posho in a climate where the public are more anti it than usual and is more damaged and dodgy than something out of del boys van.
The issue is whether enough of the public in general hate him so that he can't win?
I don't think they do.
Johnson will be the lesser of 2 evils against Corbyn. All bets would be off if Corbyn goes and is replaced by a credible leader without his baggage.
The Tories own Brexit now lock, stock and barrel. If it does turn out to have been a horrible mistake they are going to be toxic for a very long time, especially given the age profile of remainers. The ERG will always be there to remind us even after Corbyn is long gone.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
Widely respected voices told us for two years that Boris couldn’t become Conservative leader, and to lay him at 5/1 and bigger, while @HYUFD was lampooned for disagreeing.
TBF @HYUFD is lampooned because of his unreflected fondness for polls, not because of his conclusions per se
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
So you are just listening to the voices in your head and deciding that is what the will of the people is, or should be.
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
How we won the Cold War is a bit of a mystery. Much of Europe's population was anti-US back then, as well.
Also presumably a mystery why the middle east is such a monumental, largely US led clustefuck, given much of Europe's population is anti-US in that regard. Perhaps the take away is that the US does what it wants regardless of support or opposition (though we might retain an iota of self respect by not going all poodly at the sound of our master's voice).
Of course the locals bear absolutely no responsibility for their regional troubles. It’s all the result of manipulation by the Americans. I think more highly of the Arab population than you do I suppose
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
Only so far as they should put the collective good of their country and best interests of their constituency before representing their views.
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
Is it not possible that the people of Peterborough do not love the Nigel as much as you do, and that Labour won fair and square?
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
iasm's opinions seem irrelevant here. The police are investigating something. Probably turn out to be nothing.
I see jezza is back on security services csnt be trusted conspiracy theory tack again.
It's a popular view for his base and even beyond that people dont want to think we might get more war even if other nations are doing awful things so look for reasons to tone stuff down.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
One of the best and simplest summaries I've read for a while.
Yes, I agree.
It is a patent and boring distortion of the truth. Comparing like with like, you can either contrast OLV with ORV or you can contrast LFL with MFL.* What you can't do is mix and match so as to produce the illusion of tens of millions of sans culottes having their faces ground into the dirt by a tiny cabal.
*Moscow
I think you misunderstood the definitions
My belief is that politicians are caught up in a London bubble. To some extent that is inevitable because of where they work and live, their friends and contacts, the undoubted importance of London as an economic centre, etc
But I believe they overweight London’s interests vs the rest of the country
That is the intention of the distinction between London Focused Leadership (not “elite” @Foxy ) and Ordinary Voters
The party already has had huge damage inflicted on it by extending in March after May promised for years Brexit would be delivered on time and 'No Deal is better than a bad Deal'.
This is true. The unanswered question is whether the error was not to Leave in March, or whether it was to have used the rhetoric earlier that made not doing so tremendously damaging.
You believe the former, which leads you logically to support Johnson. If the error was the latter then Johnson is simply repeating May's mistake, as Richard Nabavi has argued.
May went for blackmail and brinkmanship, gambled and lost. Boris is doing the same.
This makes Stewart the candidate willing to do something different - try to sell May's Deal on its merits, as the reasonable compromise.
Stewart is crap and is going nowhere, what is it with PB fan boys , fantasising all the time.
Of course he wont win, but his campaign has at least been interesting to follow.
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
Is it not possible that the people of Peterborough do not love the Nigel as much as you do, and that Labour won fair and square?
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
Of course it’s possible, but I don’t see why you are attacking me. It’s a story in the local paper, not something I have invented or have anything to do with
I am no fan of either May or especially the DUP but never quite understood the fuss about NI getting a few extra quid. It is one of the poorest parts of the country and has more problems than any other part. Seems perfectly reasonable both for the local party there to lobby for their constituents and for the govt to provide additional funding.
So you are happy with bribes, the Westminster government breaking all normal rules to induce a bunch of clowns to prop up their rotten regime. How very Tory.
If the greens get 6 seats in the next parliament, hold the balance of power and ask for a £3bn green fund in exchange for confidence and supply are the other parties not allowed to deal? I do not see the difference.
Something very similar to that actually happened in the Cameron Clegg coalition.
A bribe would be paying DUP individuals the money. It went on broadband, education, deprivation, health and infrastructure for people across NI. It is reflecting spending priorities of a coalition, not a bribe.
I agree the DUP are clowns and would prefer them as far from govt as possible. Criticise them for being nutters, obstinate and living in the 1950s rather than trying to get the best budget settlement for their electorate.
Corbyn is of course completely right, and looks statesmanlike. If even our Government is not 100% certain Iran attacked these tankers, why are we banging the war drum once again? When did it become the thing to act, or threaten to act, without evidence? Hunt's tweet in response is weaselly - it's basically an admission that we should be 'backing' America (Lord knows why) without looking too hard at the evidence. And how British interests in the region are served by invading Iran remains a mystery best known to Jeremy Hunt.
Tory party have taken leave of their senses. What they see in boris is beyond me.
The media hate him, remainers hate him, yet another posho in a climate where the public are more anti it than usual and is more damaged and dodgy than something out of del boys van.
The issue is whether enough of the public in general hate him so that he can't win?
I don't think they do.
Johnson will be the lesser of 2 evils against Corbyn. All bets would be off if Corbyn goes and is replaced by a credible leader without his baggage.
The Tories own Brexit now lock, stock and barrel. If it does turn out to have been a horrible mistake they are going to be toxic for a very long time, especially given the age profile of remainers. The ERG will always be there to remind us even after Corbyn is long gone.
We are in an electoral environment where LDs, Greens and SNP are all likely to gain seats, and Labour has a pretty solid turnout machine as we saw in 2017 and more recently in Peterborough. More than likely an October election results in a parliament more hung than the present
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
So you are just listening to the voices in your head and deciding that is what the will of the people is, or should be.
The referendum was only real in Charles’ head, and we are just characters in that daydream? Descartes style heaviness
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
How we won the Cold War is a bit of a mystery. Much of Europe's population was anti-US back then, as well.
Also presumably a mystery why the middle east is such a monumental, largely US led clustefuck, given much of Europe's population is anti-US in that regard. Perhaps the take away is that the US does what it wants regardless of support or opposition (though we might retain an iota of self respect by not going all poodly at the sound of our master's voice).
Of course the locals bear absolutely no responsibility for their regional troubles. It’s all the result of manipulation by the Americans. I think more highly of the Arab population than you do I suppose
While the US and others have interfered and made many situations very bad and this cannot be ignored, there is a strain of infantilisation that emerges sometimes, pinning all blame on the West generically as though locals have no agency whatsoever.
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
In HYUFD's head, maybe, but PB's own Professor Pangloss does not represent the entirety of Conservative thinking on the subject and is becoming increasingly detached from reality with each passing day. Sensible Tories, and there are plenty of them on here in addition to the widely respected voices of DH and RichardN, can see what's coming next.
Widely respected voices told us for two years that Boris couldn’t become Conservative leader, and to lay him at 5/1 and bigger, while @HYUFD was lampooned for disagreeing.
TBF @HYUFD is lampooned because of his unreflected fondness for polls, not because of his conclusions per se
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
Is it not possible that the people of Peterborough do not love the Nigel as much as you do, and that Labour won fair and square?
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
Of course it’s possible, but I don’t see why you are attacking me. It’s a story in the local paper, not something I have invented or have anything to do with
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
Don't they say we get the leaders we deserve? Sadly they have been chosen by us in one way or another not magically appeared from nowhere. It demonstrates that the country is in a very poor state indeed and I don't really see that changing any time soon.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
So you are just listening to the voices in your head and deciding that is what the will of the people is, or should be.
The referendum was only real in Charles’ head, and we are just characters in that daydream? Heavy!
The numerous opinion polls that Charles airily disregards suggesting his nursery rhyme is rot are real enough too. He has no evidence that the public now wants no deal other than his own hope.
Mr. Roger, Corbyn habitually sides against the UK, regardless of whether others agree (in this case, perhaps) or almost no-one does (the novichok poisoning).
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
Parliament as a whole has performed it's job - the opposition has opposed.
The people who haven't performed their job is the ERG who should have voted for May's Deal as it was merely the next step in the process.
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
Is it not possible that the people of Peterborough do not love the Nigel as much as you do, and that Labour won fair and square?
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
iasm's opinions seem irrelevant here. The police are investigating something. Probably turn out to be nothing.
it does usually turn out to be nothing. I expect the man who was bragging about destroying votes was just shooting his mouth off.
But, occasionally (as in Tower Hamlets or Birmingham) the allegations turn out to be true.
Mr. Isam, that's quite a story. If we had another by-election I wonder what the odds would be.
“Conservative city councillor Shazia Bashir, who was formerly a Labour supporter, alleged to the PT that a few years ago she had seen electoral fraud first-hand in Eastern European and Asian areas of the city and firmly believes it still happens now.
She also claimed voters are told to take photographs to prove who they voted for, even though polling stations display signs stating that photography is forbidden.“
I see we're getting the non-denial denial. "There is no evidence" is meaningless, at best it means Peterborough Council isn't interested in investigating it, and would turn a blind eye if they found it. Actually it seems to be a lie, as police are investigating two reported instances, for which there is presumably some sort of evidence.
To be fair, you have to question whether the Tory party is really the Tory party when ‘fuck business ‘ is not a bar to the leadership.
Coming to a poster near you.
If Boris had said “fuck the CBI” instead of “fuck business” what would you have thought?
He didn't though so it hardly matters. He is very very proud of his communication skills, even his bumbling style is a choice, so it seems reasonable to focus on what he said not what he or others might claim that he meant.
Corbyn is of course completely right, and looks statesmanlike. If even our Government is not 100% certain Iran attacked these tankers, why are we banging the war drum once again? When did it become the thing to act, or threaten to act, without evidence? Hunt's tweet in response is weaselly - it's basically an admission that we should be 'backing' America (Lord knows why) without looking too hard at the evidence. And how British interests in the region are served by invading Iran remains a mystery best known to Jeremy Hunt.
Jezza’s problem is that he previously chose Putin’s theory on Salisbury over the Uk security services.
And previously Gerry Adams, the PLO etc etc . He probably hopes it wasn’t an American false flag - deep down he’s really hoping it was Mossad.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
So you are just listening to the voices in your head and deciding that is what the will of the people is, or should be.
The referendum was only real in Charles’ head, and we are just characters in that daydream? Heavy!
The numerous opinion polls that Charles airily disregards suggesting his nursery rhyme is rot are real enough too. He has no evidence that the public now wants no deal other than his own hope.
The opinion polls that got the 2010, 2015, 2016, 2017 Elections completely wrong? I’d prefer an intelligent persons opinion over that quackery
Corbyn is of course completely right, and looks statesmanlike. If even our Government is not 100% certain Iran attacked these tankers, why are we banging the war drum once again? When did it become the thing to act, or threaten to act, without evidence? Hunt's tweet in response is weaselly - it's basically an admission that we should be 'backing' America (Lord knows why) without looking too hard at the evidence. And how British interests in the region are served by invading Iran remains a mystery best known to Jeremy Hunt.
Jezza’s problem is that he previously chose Putin’s theory on Salisbury over the Uk security services.
And previously Gerry Adams, the PLO etc etc . He probably hopes it wasn’t an American false flag - deep down he’s really hoping it was Mossad.
The UK is unlikely to leave the EU on the 1st November. At most, path will be set by that date where the UK leaves a few months later.
Bruno Waterford, Times correspondent in Brussels reckons, the EU will move to a three month preparation for No Deal at that point, refusing to negotiate during that period.
That sounds plausible, but I suspect firstly that there will be a mounting sense of panic in the UK during that period and secondly the EU would negotiate if the UK sounded serious about accepting the backstop.
That would suit Boris by giving time for a general election on the theme of the dastardly Brussels bureaucrats, while avoiding his being blamed for a disastrous crash-out at the end of October.
And just exactly how many Tory MPs would ou expect to be left in the House after such an election?
In their heads, a Boris-led anti-EU campaign would sideline Farage, and leave Remain voters split between Labour and the LibDems; a landslide for the Conservative Party.
And in one sense they might have a point because electoral prospects after Brexit will be a good deal worse after the paper cuts of 700 (per Cyclefree) lost deals.
I broadly agree with that analysis and in a way it's only right that someone like Johnson is PM to deal with the consequences of what he has visited upon us.
The only thing that might be a game changer is Labour unequivocally promising a 2nd referendum with a remain option but It won't happen he will obfuscate again.
Johnson will win, Labour will then change leader and win a clear majority at the next GE>
“Police are now investigating five electoral fraud allegations relating to the recent Peterborough by-election.
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
Is it not possible that the people of Peterborough do not love the Nigel as much as you do, and that Labour won fair and square?
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
Of course it’s possible, but I don’t see why you are attacking me. It’s a story in the local paper, not something I have invented or have anything to do with
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
Don't they say we get the leaders we deserve? Sadly they have been chosen by us in one way or another not magically appeared from nowhere. It demonstrates that the country is in a very poor state indeed and I don't really see that changing any time soon.
That's the worst part of all this. We have been led very poorly but the signs were all there and we still chose these leaders, and reject ways out of chaos or poor leadership. What were we thinking? What are we still thinking?
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
So you are just listening to the voices in your head and deciding that is what the will of the people is, or should be.
The referendum was only real in Charles’ head, and we are just characters in that daydream? Heavy!
The numerous opinion polls that Charles airily disregards suggesting his nursery rhyme is rot are real enough too. He has no evidence that the public now wants no deal other than his own hope.
The opinion polls that got the 2010, 2015, 2016, 2017 Elections completely wrong? I’d prefer an intelligent persons opinion over that quackery
Given a forced choice between Revoking A50, and a No Deal Brexit, it's very tight. But, there's about 25-30% of the voters who prefer other options. Hardliners want to force that 25-30% to choose the most extreme option.
The party already has had huge damage inflicted on it by extending in March after May promised for years Brexit would be delivered on time and 'No Deal is better than a bad Deal'.
This is true. The unanswered question is whether the error was not to Leave in March, or whether it was to have used the rhetoric earlier that made not doing so tremendously damaging.
You believe the former, which leads you logically to support Johnson. If the error was the latter then Johnson is simply repeating May's mistake, as Richard Nabavi has argued.
May went for blackmail and brinkmanship, gambled and lost. Boris is doing the same.
This makes Stewart the candidate willing to do something different - try to sell May's Deal on its merits, as the reasonable compromise.
Stewart is crap and is going nowhere, what is it with PB fan boys , fantasising all the time.
Of course he wont win, but his campaign has at least been interesting to follow.
For you maybe. For me I hear a candidate utterly and cynically and dishonestly grossly overstating his chances and spending most of his time divisively slagging off the front runner while (ironically) claiming to be the unity candidate. To put his campaign in perspective, he secured 10 more votes than Ester McVey in the first round. Despite Hancock's withdrawal, he'll be gone by Tuesday.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
That last assertion is being tested in this process.
Excellent header. I fear for this country now. The choice of PM seems to be Boris, Farage or Corbyn. Quite incredible. We have collectively taken leave of our senses.
No, we haven’t. It’s effective a game of poker between ordinary voters and the London focused leadership of the country
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum OV: we want to leave LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke OV: Sod off, we said leave LFL: but we can’t agree a deal OV: fine, no deal LFL: are you nuts? OV: just try us
In case you hadn’t noticed, for the last year polls have consistently shown that the public think that the decision to leave the EU was a mistake.
Prior to the referendum they also showed a majority for Remain
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
So you are just listening to the voices in your head and deciding that is what the will of the people is, or should be.
The referendum was only real in Charles’ head, and we are just characters in that daydream? Heavy!
The numerous opinion polls that Charles airily disregards suggesting his nursery rhyme is rot are real enough too. He has no evidence that the public now wants no deal other than his own hope.
The opinion polls that got the 2010, 2015, 2016, 2017 Elections completely wrong? I’d prefer an intelligent persons opinion over that quackery
That really is anti-science. Opinion polls are imperfect but they are of more evidential weight than smoke blown out of the arse of someone whose views you just happen to agree with. All Charles has is hope. The will of the people in this case is just Charles’s will. And should be ignored as such.
Off to cut my lawn before the rain starts again, but could I point out that few here have been saying that Boris cannot become Prime Minister, what they have been saying is that he is manifestly unsuited to the post. Apart from possibly a sense of humour and name recognition no one seems to have a positive view of him.
Of course, there is the possibility that Boris may actually clear the low bar of expectations, at least in the short term. He has such a track record of mendacity and incompetence that merely not tripping over Larry the Cat on his way into Number 10 will be greeted as a triumph.
Comments
LFL: You can’t have a say on EU
OV: Fine, we’ll vote UKIP
LFL: Ok we’ll give you a referendum
OV: we want to leave
LFL: We’ll pretend but work to frustrate it
LFL: See, it’s all too difficult. Let’s revoke
OV: Sod off, we said leave
LFL: but we can’t agree a deal
OV: fine, no deal
LFL: are you nuts?
OV: just try us
Coming to a poster near you.
The Lib Dem’s pissing off a bunch of Young Ones with tuition fees is a molehill compared to the Tory breach of trust with British business.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/world/europe/tanker-europe-strait-of-hormuz.html
One of the more mundane observations of my political life has been that bad governments get away with it when they are not held to account by the Opposition. Whatever Government comes next, we need a decnt Opposition. Who is to provide it? Farage? Lucas? Jo Swinson?
The Tory Party needs to reform and regather its sanity and its strength. We all need it.
?
Since Trump entered the White House, my inclination to trust the US has diminished considerably.
If he does he can spike the ambitions of both Farage and Corbyn and buy himself 5 years to deal with the mess that no deal Halloween creates. Or he can wait, not leave on Halloween and watch the Tory party disappear underneath him.
It's a risk - but it's the least risky option surely. He's a populist. He will have the populist line on the single populist issue of the age - and unlike the other populist Farage actually the ability to carry it out. Magic Grandpa will promise only delay - but not actually commit either way to whether we should leave or remain. There is a window of opportunity for Boris - measured in weeks - where he can pull this off. Or wait and die.
Hopefully the Liberals now they are back in the game will provide a sensible sane pole around which others can gather.
How we won the Cold War is a bit of a mystery. Much of Europe's population was anti-US back then, as well.
Yes, I agree.
It turns out I backed Boris a while ago, but what with backing many others I'll likely be very slight red or green whatever happens.
[Unless Raab wins. That's all red].
The number of investigations has risen from two earlier in the week and includes one message shared on social media allegedly showing someone bragging that he and two others had ‘burned more than 1,000 votes for the Brexit Party’.”
https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/crime/five-electoral-fraud-allegations-at-peterborough-by-election-being-investigated-by-police-1-8964103?fbclid=IwAR1K-QtSSqJCX4WLsqlPZTcOYI3wHAoJEa5-YxrciGhM_gqXyLrzziipwVg
I am a natural Tory voter but did not vote at the euros and would only vote Tory in the Scottish and possibly council elections now.
*Moscow
One of the most best parts of the film is where the Soviet President contacts his US counterpart to explain that Soviet missiles are expected to kill 6 - 9 million people in the US, and that retaliation on a similar scale "is acceptable to us" but that any greater retaliation will result in full-scale hostilities. The US President then has to decide whether to go for this limited retaliation, or initiate full-scale hostilities.
This is Iraq all over again.
This talk of conspiracy is very dangerous for our democracy. This was a highly scrutinised election crawling with observers from all parties and journalists. You are going to have to work a bit harder to find your Reichstag fire.
https://twitter.com/BBCHelenCatt/status/1139621415076978688
She also claimed voters are told to take photographs to prove who they voted for, even though polling stations display signs stating that photography is forbidden.“
https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/authorities-insist-no-evidence-of-electoral-fraud-in-the-peterborough-by-election-as-police-investigate-allegations-1-8959871
The Tories own Brexit now lock, stock and barrel. If it does turn out to have been a horrible mistake they are going to be toxic for a very long time, especially given the age profile of remainers. The ERG will always be there to remind us even after Corbyn is long gone.
Moreover they reflect the front of mind not the considered view. In the face of unrelenting gloom from talking heads of course people are nervous.
But it all comes back to: we voted to leave. Parliament has consistently obstructed that.
Parliament is the servant of the people, not the master
My belief is that politicians are caught up in a London bubble. To some extent that is inevitable because of where they work and live, their friends and contacts, the undoubted importance of London as an economic centre, etc
But I believe they overweight London’s interests vs the rest of the country
That is the intention of the distinction between London Focused Leadership (not “elite” @Foxy ) and Ordinary Voters
Something very similar to that actually happened in the Cameron Clegg coalition.
A bribe would be paying DUP individuals the money. It went on broadband, education, deprivation, health and infrastructure for people across NI. It is reflecting spending priorities of a coalition, not a bribe.
I agree the DUP are clowns and would prefer them as far from govt as possible. Criticise them for being nutters, obstinate and living in the 1950s rather than trying to get the best budget settlement for their electorate.
Don't they say we get the leaders we deserve? Sadly they have been chosen by us in one way or another not magically appeared from nowhere. It demonstrates that the country is in a very poor state indeed and I don't really see that changing any time soon.
The people who haven't performed their job is the ERG who should have voted for May's Deal as it was merely the next step in the process.
But, occasionally (as in Tower Hamlets or Birmingham) the allegations turn out to be true.
Anyway, back to discussing PM Boris and Leader of the Opposition Corbyn.
And previously Gerry Adams, the PLO etc etc .
He probably hopes it wasn’t an American false flag - deep down he’s really hoping it was Mossad.
The only thing that might be a game changer is Labour unequivocally promising a 2nd referendum with a remain option but It won't happen he will obfuscate again.
Johnson will win, Labour will then change leader and win a clear majority at the next GE>
Of course, there is the possibility that Boris may actually clear the low bar of expectations, at least in the short term. He has such a track record of mendacity and incompetence that merely not tripping over Larry the Cat on his way into Number 10 will be greeted as a triumph.