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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Eagles, the vote was to stay or leave.

    The majority of predictions so far have been wildly inaccurate (the exchange rate fell sharply, quickly, and had a second significant fall a little later. Otherwise the doom-laden prophecies proved rather false. Jobs were created in large number rather than being shed, for example).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sean_F said:

    But, I have to say Hastings and St. Leonards are way better today than they were then. Hastings Old Town is rather magnificent.

    One of the tragedies is that much of the formerly well-preserved mediaeval centre of Hastings was deliberately destroyed in one of those 1960s bouts of local-government vandalism, leaving just ugliness in its place. Fortunately the two towns have been much improved in the last fifteen years or so. They still have lots of problems, though; the difference in life expectancy between that part of Sussex and the leafy rural areas just a few miles away is astonishing - something like ten years IIRC.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    It would be perfectly reasonable for parliament to say "you told us to leave in 2016 but did not say how. We have looked at the how and we don't think any available options are acceptable. So we are not going to leave. And if you don't like our decision you can vote us out at the next election."

    This is how representative democracy works.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    No, I'm talking about specifically what Leavers said.
    Perhaps you should ask those leavers to stand down as PM then.

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    If I supported economic and political integration, then I'd accept that any alternative to the EU must be inferior. But I don't.
    Economic disintegration is inferior to economic integration and enhanced prosperity. I don't think the UK over the last 200 years has done badly from being integrated into the global economy. The post war period in which trade barriers have come down have witnessed unrivalled prosperity in the UK. Restricting the UK economies fundamental ability to grow through divergence with the EU has no upside. You cannot sell something demanded in European economies to developing economies if their is no demand for it. We live in a world where an individual or a country has to pay its way. There is no benign consumer of British goods who will always come to us for their requirements.


    I would not personally support joining the Euro and even if we stay within the EU, we are not compelled to do so. Europe has evolved into a multispeed area. The UK is on the periphery anyway as we have many exemptions from a multitude of policies. The single Nation state is diminishing in importance and even Churchill through his three circle concept in the 1950s recognised the UKs need to reach out and influence over the EEC, US and Commonwealth. If you are outside fortress Europe you have no leverage and as things integrate further the UK will be left further and further behind with a much greater power on our doorstep.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,870
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
    It is ceasing to be the case. Rates of home ownership are starting to rise again, among people aged over 25. 750,000 people became first time buyers in the past two years.

    Housing became unaffordable for loads of people, as property prices rose by 320% from 1996 to 2007. Outside London, and a few hotspots, they've barely moved since then.
    Or, in the case of the northeast fallen by 7.1% between 2007 and 2017. Source ONS.
    A chart might be more useful than looking relative to an arbitrary date. Sean did say it was starting to rise again, implying a more recent turnaround.
    Sorry. I was very unclear. The fall of 7.1% since 2007 was in house prices, not rates of ownership. I was reinforcing rather than refuting @SeanF's point.
    Though obviously ineffectively.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
    It is ceasing to be the case. Rates of home ownership are starting to rise again, among people aged over 25. 750,000 people became first time buyers in the past two years.

    Housing became unaffordable for loads of people, as property prices rose by 320% from 1996 to 2007. Outside London, and a few hotspots, they've barely moved since then.
    Or, in the case of the northeast fallen by 7.1% between 2007 and 2017. Source ONS.
    A chart might be more useful than looking relative to an arbitrary date. Sean did say it was starting to rise again, implying a more recent turnaround.
    https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/graphs/generated/uk-house-prices-2018.png the last decade has very sideways for house prices.
    Those are "real" numbers, so it's not clear to me why "trend" should be 2.9% growth per year.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Government sacks Roger Scruton after remarks about Soros and Islamophobia
    Philosopher loses role as housing adviser following ‘unacceptable comments’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/apr/10/roger-scruton-calls-for-dismissal-islamophobiad-soros-remarks
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780
    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    rcs1000 said:

    Those are "real" numbers, so it's not clear to me why "trend" should be 2.9% growth per year.

    Why shouldn't it be?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    edited April 2019
    philiph said:

    stodge said:


    Cities for living in. Essential development.

    Indeed - the notion of regeneration of city centres purely in terms of retail is long dead. Many of the developments coming forward are predicated on the notion of "place" where you live, work and relax in the same physical environment. Flats on top of small start-up units or common working areas with excellent wifi surrounded by smaller retail opportunities are the new models.

    Public services are looking at "hubs" where all public services are co-located and access to one part of the public sector equals access to them all.

    The next thing to go will be the traditional suburb - horrendously outmoded and ill-suited to a world where there will be less requirement to travel or commute but where social interaction will still be needed.

    stodge said:


    Cities for living in. Essential development.

    Indeed - the notion of regeneration of city centres purely in terms of retail is long dead. Many of the developments coming forward are predicated on the notion of "place" where you live, work and relax in the same physical environment. Flats on top of small start-up units or common working areas with excellent wifi surrounded by smaller retail opportunities are the new models.

    Public services are looking at "hubs" where all public services are co-located and access to one part of the public sector equals access to them all.

    The next thing to go will be the traditional suburb - horrendously outmoded and ill-suited to a world where there will be less requirement to travel or commute but where social interaction will still be needed.

    This looks very similar to the Garden City movement founded by Sir Ebenezer Howard. Letchworth was the first Garden City with Welwyn GC following behind.
    Odd that he was, I think, a clerk in Parliament before he became a town planner!
    Letchworth almost works well, it is still an oddity with its own act of parliament, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1995/2/enacted

    Given the relative modernity of that Act.. it's quite striking they went to the trouble of setting up a new body rather than rolling the corporation into the district council or Commission for the New Towns etc etc. I think local authorities have taken over similar functions in, for example, new towns like Milton Keynes and Telford (although at that stage they were deemed to need the CNT/English Partnerships to keep councillors' sticky mitts off!)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019
    TGOHF said:

    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
    The depressed voters in the Seaside town are Billy, Nigel Farage is McMurphy, and the MPs are Nurse Ratched

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g2qzcAjVzQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYDP3nBh_E4

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    OK on the QT then?

    No, of course not!

    Just to be clear, if a Corbyn led Labour government came to office, and although none of their policies or rhetoric was antisemitic in any way, nevertheless it led to antisemites amongst the general public feeling empowered and validated, and thus to an upsurge in antisemitic activity in the country generally, which Corbyn & Co turned a blind eye to, rather than condemning and moving against, then that would count in my book as a Corbyn government being a threat to the Jewish community and therefore would be sufficient for me to not be supporting them.

    But, as I say, I do not think there is a risk of that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
    It is ceasing to be the case. Rates of home ownership are starting to rise again, among people aged over 25. 750,000 people became first time buyers in the past two years.

    Housing became unaffordable for loads of people, as property prices rose by 320% from 1996 to 2007. Outside London, and a few hotspots, they've barely moved since then.
    Or, in the case of the northeast fallen by 7.1% between 2007 and 2017. Source ONS.
    A chart might be more useful than looking relative to an arbitrary date. Sean did say it was starting to rise again, implying a more recent turnaround.
    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/blog/home-ownership-is-rising-but-the-crisis-is-far-from-over/

    This article summarises changes in home ownership rates.

    The growing unattractiveness of buy to let for non-institutional investors, and the current boom in private new building, will probably boost this trend.
    There are other things working against long term housing prices:

    1. London valuations are still extremely stretched
    2. An ageing population needs less space. (Old people don't want large dusty houses to maintain)
    3. Net migration will probably turn negative*
    4. Birth rates are still below replacement level

    * Yes, it's a gutsy call, but it's one I'm pretty confident about
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    If I supported economic and political integration, then I'd accept that any alternative to the EU must be inferior. But I don't.
    Economic disintegration is inferior to economic integration and enhanced prosperity. I don't think the UK over the last 200 years has done badly from being integrated into the global economy. The post war period in which trade barriers have come down have witnessed unrivalled prosperity in the UK. Restricting the UK economies fundamental ability to grow through divergence with the EU has no upside. You cannot sell something demanded in European economies to developing economies if their is no demand for it. We live in a world where an individual or a country has to pay its way. There is no benign consumer of British goods who will always come to us for their requirements.


    I would not personally support joining the Euro and even if we stay within the EU, we are not compelled to do so. Europe has evolved into a multispeed area. The UK is on the periphery anyway as we have many exemptions from a multitude of policies. The single Nation state is diminishing in importance and even Churchill through his three circle concept in the 1950s recognised the UKs need to reach out and influence over the EEC, US and Commonwealth. If you are outside fortress Europe you have no leverage and as things integrate further the UK will be left further and further behind with a much greater power on our doorstep.
    Well, as I see it, a rich country has options. Inside or outside the EU, the UK will be a rich country. I can live with exchanging a bit less future prosperity, for a greater degree of self-government. IMHO, the upside of having a more accountable, and hopefully more mature government, is more important than seeing GDP growing at a marginally lower rate than would otherwise be the case.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    TGOHF said:

    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
    Nonetheless she served you a nice steak with all the trimmings which you then decided you didn't want after all.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    If I supported economic and political integration, then I'd accept that any alternative to the EU must be inferior. But I don't.
    Economic disintegration is inferior to economic integration and enhanced prosperity. I don't think the UK over the last 200 years has done badly from being integrated into the global economy. The post war period in which trade barriers have come down have witnessed unrivalled prosperity in the UK. Restricting the UK economies fundamental ability to grow through divergence with the EU has no upside. You cannot sell something demanded in European economies to developing economies if their is no demand for it. We live in a world where an individual or a country has to pay its way. There is no benign consumer of British goods who will always come to us for their requirements.


    I would not personally support joining the Euro and even if we stay within the EU, we are not compelled to do so. Europe has evolved into a multispeed area. The UK is on the periphery anyway as we have many exemptions from a multitude of policies. The single Nation state is diminishing in importance and even Churchill through his three circle concept in the 1950s recognised the UKs need to reach out and influence over the EEC, US and Commonwealth. If you are outside fortress Europe you have no leverage and as things integrate further the UK will be left further and further behind with a much greater power on our doorstep.
    Well, as I see it, a rich country has options. Inside or outside the EU, the UK will be a rich country. I can live with exchanging a bit less future prosperity, for a greater degree of self-government. IMHO, the upside of having a more accountable, and hopefully more mature government, is more important than seeing GDP growing at a marginally lower rate than would otherwise be the case.
    Outside the EU, the UK will be a former imperial power in terminal political decline as the remaining appendages of England choose a different future.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    Macron will not veto an extension . The issue is the duration of that .

    nico67 is Macron?
    Nico's email address is brigette@elysee.fr, so I don't think he's Macron.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
    Nonetheless she served you a nice steak with all the trimmings which you then decided you didn't want after all.
    "Nice Steak" ..

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42639479

    "Marks and Spencer says it will stop selling its "cauliflower steak" after shoppers mocked the product.

    The veggie steak - two slices of cauliflower and a lemon and herb drizzle - was being sold for £2.

    Customers argued a whole cauliflower could be bought for £1 in its shops and raised concerns about excess packaging.

    An M&S spokeswoman said: "We work hard to create quick and convenient meals for customers; however on this occasion we didn't get it right.""
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    I agree. MPs should vote through the WA.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Glenn, the outlook of May is of managed decline, seeing leaving the EU as a mistake to be mitigated by diluting the harm rather than an opportunity to govern ourselves in a better way, with laws made in a democratically accountable way.

    It's not helped by the fact she's incredibly incompetent too.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    I agree. MPs should vote through the WA.
    Labour MPs wont..
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    Macron will not veto an extension . The issue is the duration of that .

    nico67 is Macron?
    Nico's email address is brigette@elysee.fr, so I don't think he's Macron.
    Lmao ! Very funny .
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710
    edited April 2019

    TGOHF said:

    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
    Nonetheless she served you a nice steak with all the trimmings which you then decided you didn't want after all.
    Albeit she kept taking it away, reheating it in the microwave, and bringing it back to the dinner table.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Mr. Glenn, the outlook of May is of managed decline, seeing leaving the EU as a mistake to be mitigated by diluting the harm rather than an opportunity to govern ourselves in a better way, with laws made in a democratically accountable way.

    It's not helped by the fact she's incredibly incompetent too.

    Any proposal for a dynamic, optimistic future for this country wouldn't start with the line, "First, leave the EU..."
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    rcs1000 said:

    There are other things working against long term housing prices:

    1. London valuations are still extremely stretched
    2. An ageing population needs less space. (Old people don't want large dusty houses to maintain)
    3. Net migration will probably turn negative*
    4. Birth rates are still below replacement level

    * Yes, it's a gutsy call, but it's one I'm pretty confident about

    Hmm, the ONS forecasts that the number of households in England will increase by 4.0 million (17%) over the next 25 years:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationprojections/bulletins/2016basedhouseholdprojectionsinengland/2016basedhouseholdprojectionsinengland
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Albeit she kept taking it away, reheating it in the microwave, and bringing it back to the dinner table.

    True!
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Sean_F said:

    Well, as I see it, a rich country has options. Inside or outside the EU, the UK will be a rich country. I can live with exchanging a bit less future prosperity, for a greater degree of self-government. IMHO, the upside of having a more accountable, and hopefully more mature government, is more important than seeing GDP growing at a marginally lower rate than would otherwise be the case.

    Gary Younge wrote an excellent article a while ago pointing out that people vote to make themselves poorer for all sorts of principled reasons, such as voting for higher taxation in return for a more equal society with better public services. Though I disagree with it I can accept being outvoted by people willing to trade prosperity for national isolation/identity/autonomy.

    Where this breaks down a bit is that they were promised during the referendum that they would be richer and have more control, and the most strident advocates of Leave are unwilling to bear that responsibility, of breaking that promise, by voting for the Withdrawal Agreement. Instead they are hoping others will do their dirty work so that they can blame Brexit's failings on them.

    Well. Sod that.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    RobD said:



    Apart from the whole ignoring democracy thing.

    In a country where the ludicrous electoral system ensures that the majority of votes go straight in the bin, where local government has been hollowed out until only the corruption remains, where regional government is non-existent unless you live in London or the Celtic fringe, where an oligarchical press controls the flow of information, and where bishops and barons generally have more say in legislation than the leader of the second-largest party, I'm not sure that hitting the pause button because our unwritten constitution is coming apart at the seams as we stumble blind into our foreign policy and trade arrangements for the next generation is the epitome of "ignoring democracy".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Welcome to PB, Mr. Mango.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
    Nonetheless she served you a nice steak with all the trimmings which you then decided you didn't want after all.
    Albeit she kept taking it away, reheating it in the microwave, and bringing it back to the dinner table.
    It's not been scraped into the bin yet - maybe this time it will have ketchup on it.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited April 2019
    AndyJS said:

    "Government sacks Roger Scruton after remarks about Soros and Islamophobia
    Philosopher loses role as housing adviser following ‘unacceptable comments’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/apr/10/roger-scruton-calls-for-dismissal-islamophobiad-soros-remarks

    Another one discovers that when push comes to shove we really aren't Charlie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie#/media/File:Charlie_Hebdo_Tout_est_pardonné.jpg
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    I agree. MPs should vote through the WA.
    Labour MPs wont..
    I've heard Ken Clarke say several times that referendums are as much use as an opinion poll.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited April 2019
    kinabalu said:

    OK on the QT then?

    No, of course not!

    Just to be clear, if a Corbyn led Labour government came to office, and although none of their policies or rhetoric was antisemitic in any way, nevertheless it led to antisemites amongst the general public feeling empowered and validated, and thus to an upsurge in antisemitic activity in the country generally, which Corbyn & Co turned a blind eye to, rather than condemning and moving against, then that would count in my book as a Corbyn government being a threat to the Jewish community and therefore would be sufficient for me to not be supporting them.

    But, as I say, I do not think there is a risk of that.
    http://www.twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1114810848286052352
    http://www.twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1114810849280053249
    http://www.twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1114810850282483712
    http://www.twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1115579374894571520
    Now, I hold no brief for Hodge. I don't like her, or trust her. But the fact remains she has known Corbyn for 37 years, has been an important figure in his political life, and at one time was a key ally of his in Islington Labour.

    And yet she is accusing him of turning a blind eye to antisemitic attacks on her, and lying to the press about what is happening.

    So it isn't the right wing press, it isn't a noisy minority of his political opponents and it isn't manufactured. It is a serious problem that he is simply not confronting.

    And that is even before we get to my earlier comments about his own links with extremism. Paul Eisen alone is enough to damn him in that regard, but Chris Williamson and Ken Livingstone are frankly scarcely better.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Or Theresa's not going to Fall Out, so she Revokes?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289
    Mango said:

    RobD said:



    Apart from the whole ignoring democracy thing.

    In a country where the ludicrous electoral system ensures that the majority of votes go straight in the bin, where local government has been hollowed out until only the corruption remains, where regional government is non-existent unless you live in London or the Celtic fringe, where an oligarchical press controls the flow of information, and where bishops and barons generally have more say in legislation than the leader of the second-largest party, I'm not sure that hitting the pause button because our unwritten constitution is coming apart at the seams as we stumble blind into our foreign policy and trade arrangements for the next generation is the epitome of "ignoring democracy".
    Welcome, (back??) Mango.

    Most people apologise their way in (been lurking, decided to post, yada yada).

    You've gone straight for the jugular.

    I like it.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @AlastairMeeks mentioned that Kippers tend to live by the sea, or people that live by the sea tend to be kippers...

    https://unherd.com/2019/04/why-lifes-no-beach-by-the-seaside/

    If you've not seen it, there's a brilliant long read in the FT about this from a little while back:

    https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/status/1011360985217748992

    I wrote a piece on this subject last year myself:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/04/10/flotsam-and-jetsam-britains-quiet-coastal-disaster/
    Without wanting to go over old ground...

    The people described in these deadbeat coastal towns, suffering from anxiety, loneliness and depression, voted quite strongly for Brexit, perhaps as a cry for help, or at least to feel they were slightly empowered... they won, and the rich kids said "Just kidding"

    So what are the people who wish to ignore them going to do for them?
    Well they should do something to address the problems, Brexit would just exacerbate them. Stopping Brexit via Revoke or offering a new referendum should be paired with a commitment to new policies to address the real problems
    Being on the winning side in the referendum gave people who are utterly powerless a small taste of success for once. I think that is worth more than the negligible difference some govt scheme or other might make to their lives.
    OK, if their 'success' makes them worse off, how long do you think they will say it's worth it?
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Mango.

    Thanks very much. Long-time lurker finally taking the plunge. I always wanted my first post to be betting-oriented, but I feel a long way off a flutter at the moment.

    Mind you, that tip last week about JRM being much longer odds for next Tory leader than next PM...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Hence why few mps have actively backed revoke until recently even though their reasoning, that any deal is worse than what we have, suggests revoke is the logical choice.
    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    Depends how many of them are dual nationals, I suppose.

    Don't think the Donald had that level of info. I think he was addressing them as Jews. Speaking to their "Jewish Identity". Seems a bit dodgy.

    Then again, say you are a Brit who is long time settled in Australia, taken citizenship etc, so you are of Australian nationality, and you get talking to an Aussie guy and he raises the subject of this ongoing Brexit shambles and he says to you -

    "Shit, your Prime Minister is up the creek without one, mate, isn't she?"

    Problematical or not? Is it even a relevant comparison?

    Or are we risking paralysis by analysis?
    Paralysis by analysis is an apt description of our current situation perhaps?
    nico67 said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    If the EU agree a flexible extension May will try and sell this as as the sooner we agree a deal the sooner we can leave and dump the problem onto MPs.

    awesome "leadership" again from TM..

    Mark my words . Her mantra will be .

    The EU has offered the UK a flexible extension which means we can leave as quickly as a deal is agreed . It’s upto MPs now to agree a deal so that we can leave before the EU elections . Blah blah !

    And MPs will continue to fight over their preferred option, the scorched earth policy will pit the ERG against the Peoples Vote . Indeed now I think there’s likely to be even fewer Tories backing the deal and they’ll hope to remove May during the extension.

    I’m an ardent Remainer but just want a deal and an orderly exit . Sadly I think it’s not going to happen . The divisions in the country now are worse than in 2016 . It’s tragic that this is the case .
    Terrifyingly accurate unfortunately, I'd guess.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    He has some way to go to beat the daunting benchmark of 50 pax on the Leave Means Leave march.

    But, who would bet against this modern-day Moses?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    I agree. MPs should vote through the WA.
    Labour MPs wont..
    I've heard Ken Clarke say several times that referendums are as much use as an opinion poll.
    Attlee said they are alien to our national life and Thatcher called them tools of dictators and demagogues. Which was a commonly accepted view when those who remembered the 1930s were still alive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    nico67 said:

    If the EU agree a flexible extension May will try and sell this as as the sooner we agree a deal the sooner we can leave and dump the problem onto MPs.

    Who dont want to leave soon (or many at all) solving nothing.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019

    TGOHF said:

    Omnium said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    And that there would be 5 million unemployed blah blah.

    Our job as the electorate is to make the judgement as to what value we place on what we're told at elections.

    For what it's worth I think us 'holding all the cards' had some credence back then. Quite how the negotiations have reduced us now to bluffing on a '5 high' hand escapes me.
    We voted for a steak dinner and the chef was replaced by a vegetarian.
    Nonetheless she served you a nice steak with all the trimmings which you then decided you didn't want after all.
    I think the point is that Leavers, like myself, should have known that we weren't going to get the meal we desired at this particular restaurant, because, whoever the chef was, they didn't want to make it.

    Or, if Coldplay are your house band and you get to choose the set list , don't ask them to play Anarchy in the UK then complain it doesn't sound like the Sex Pistols
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    kinabalu said:

    OK on the QT then?

    No, of course not!

    Just to be clear, if a Corbyn led Labour government came to office, and although none of their policies or rhetoric was antisemitic in any way, nevertheless it led to antisemites amongst the general public feeling empowered and validated, and thus to an upsurge in antisemitic activity in the country generally, which Corbyn & Co turned a blind eye to, rather than condemning and moving against, then that would count in my book as a Corbyn government being a threat to the Jewish community and therefore would be sufficient for me to not be supporting them.

    But, as I say, I do not think there is a risk of that.
    But that is exactly what has happened to the Labour party since Corbyn became leader. So there is every reason to think that having Corbyn in government would result in the same behaviour spreading more widely within society.

    One specific concern Jews have is that Labour government would not continue providing funds for security at Jewish buildings. Given the increase in anti-semitic incidents in recent years, that is a real concern. Another is that Labour would not take action to challenge anti-semitic attitudes amongst other communities. I don’t think one should dismiss Jewish fears given what has been done to Jews in lots of countries in Europe in recent years.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @AlastairMeeks mentioned that Kippers tend to live by the sea, or people that live by the sea tend to be kippers...

    https://unherd.com/2019/04/why-lifes-no-beach-by-the-seaside/

    If you've not seen it, there's a brilliant long read in the FT about this from a little while back:

    https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/status/1011360985217748992

    I wrote a piece on this subject last year myself:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/04/10/flotsam-and-jetsam-britains-quiet-coastal-disaster/
    Without wanting to go over old ground...

    The people described in these deadbeat coastal towns, suffering from anxiety, loneliness and depression, voted quite strongly for Brexit, perhaps as a cry for help, or at least to feel they were slightly empowered... they won, and the rich kids said "Just kidding"

    So what are the people who wish to ignore them going to do for them?
    Well they should do something to address the problems, Brexit would just exacerbate them. Stopping Brexit via Revoke or offering a new referendum should be paired with a commitment to new policies to address the real problems
    Being on the winning side in the referendum gave people who are utterly powerless a small taste of success for once. I think that is worth more than the negligible difference some govt scheme or other might make to their lives.
    OK, if their 'success' makes them worse off, how long do you think they will say it's worth it?
    Impossible to say, but the fact is they probably felt at rock bottom anyway, and being on the winning side could have put a spring in their step that led to a better life with or without the economic effects of Brexit.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
  • Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Or Theresa's not going to Fall Out, so she Revokes?
    Heads or tails, Revoke or No Deal? Best of 3?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858

    Virgin trains not so much deflowered as dead headed?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    In which case, Parliament will revoke.
  • ydoethur said:

    Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858

    Virgin trains not so much deflowered as dead headed?
    Well their East Coast division was dead headed last year.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Bollocks.

    Ofsted chief accepted for 'settled status'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47881897

    Opportunity missed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited April 2019
    kinabalu said:

    OK on the QT then?

    No, of course not!

    Just to be clear, if a Corbyn led Labour government came to office, and although none of their policies or rhetoric was antisemitic in any way, nevertheless it led to antisemites amongst the general public feeling empowered and validated, and thus to an upsurge in antisemitic activity in the country generally, which Corbyn & Co turned a blind eye to, rather than condemning and moving against, then that would count in my book as a Corbyn government being a threat to the Jewish community and therefore would be sufficient for me to not be supporting them.

    But, as I say, I do not think there is a risk of that.
    If there is a no smoking policy in your office and you find a little-used side room to smoke how worried would you be if your boss walked in to that room. And he was smoking?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    If that happened I think Parliament would vote to revoke.

    But I doubt the EU will force the UK into that position.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    Bollocks.

    Ofsted chief accepted for 'settled status'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47881897

    Opportunity missed.

    There's a certain grim irony to the head of Ofsted not being able to successfully complete a form.....and then misrepresenting the outcome....

    The Home Office had said that Prof Muijs had not been rejected, but the automated system had not had the correct information needed to successfully complete the application process.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    I agree. MPs should vote through the WA.
    Labour MPs wont..
    I've heard Ken Clarke say several times that referendums are as much use as an opinion poll.
    Attlee said they are alien to our national life and Thatcher called them tools of dictators and demagogues. Which was a commonly accepted view when those who remembered the 1930s were still alive.
    But, they've been a part of our national life for decades.

    Most of our theories of Parliamentary sovereignty derive from a time when about 5% of adults had the vote, and the job of Parliament was to defend the interests of landed gentry and professional people from an overbearing monarch, and a dangerous populace.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    In which case, Parliament will revoke.
    How?

    VONC the government, hold a GE, have a pro-revoke party win - all by Friday?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Pedant mode, but the density of supermassive black holes is similar to water.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    edited April 2019
    isam said:

    They are people who have been dealt a rough hand, feel utterly powerless, and the one time they win, the establishment ignores them. You talk about Leavers having to break bread with those who lost in 2016, but what is being offered to these people, who are the real losers? The symbolism of winning might well have made a difference to their lives that fiscal policies never could.

    I don't think it is credible to keep blaming everything on a handful of Leave politicians, whilst ignoring the "moderates" who want to overturn the result, and whom are far more numerous, that promised to respect it and haven't.

    They're all in it together, to paraphrase a phrase.

    But Brexit is a project of the Hard Tory Right. The guys pushing it do not give a flying fig about the poor and dispossessed. What would truly benefit the people you are talking about is a massive diversification of resource and opportunity away from London and the South East and away from the affluent and privileged.

    This is what Labour are offering. It's a tragedy that working class 'leavers' got waylaid into identity stuff and the softhead scapegoating of the European Union for their ills. They should forget all of that nonsense and vote Labour. I'd make it compulsory if I had my way, people like that voting Labour.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Bollocks.

    Ofsted chief accepted for 'settled status'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47881897

    Opportunity missed.

    There's a certain grim irony to the head of Ofsted not being able to successfully complete a form.....and then misrepresenting the outcome....

    The Home Office had said that Prof Muijs had not been rejected, but the automated system had not had the correct information needed to successfully complete the application process.
    There's nothing ironic about it. The boss of OFSTED famously got all her grades the wrong way round ruining the exams of millions of children.

    In fact, by their standards he's done quite well to realise he needs to fill it in at all.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    And he was getting on so well with Macron....

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1116008015558266881
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Two observations about this black hole news:

    1) I will clearly never make a theoretical physicist because despite asking in a couple of places no one has yet given me a clear explanation about why we see a halo rather than a ball of light. This is clearly a defect in me.

    2) I can't get Muse out of my head.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    RobD said:

    Pedant mode, but the density of supermassive black holes is similar to water.
    Which is the dimmest?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    They are people who have been dealt a rough hand, feel utterly powerless, and the one time they win, the establishment ignores them. You talk about Leavers having to break bread with those who lost in 2016, but what is being offered to these people, who are the real losers? The symbolism of winning might well have made a difference to their lives that fiscal policies never could.

    I don't think it is credible to keep blaming everything on a handful of Leave politicians, whilst ignoring the "moderates" who want to overturn the result, and whom are far more numerous, that promised to respect it and haven't.

    They're all in it together, to paraphrase a phrase.

    But Brexit is a project of the Hard Tory Right. The guys pushing it do not give a flying fig about the poor and dispossessed. What would truly benefit the people you are talking about is a massive diversification of resource and opportunity away from London and the South East and away from the affluent and privileged.

    This is what Labour are offering. It's a tragedy that working class 'leavers' got waylaid into identity stuff and the softhead scapegoating of the European Union for their ills. They should forget all of that nonsense and vote Labour. I'd make it compulsory if I had my way, people like that voting Labour.
    The SDP manifesto is probably more interesting to them than Labour's. Plenty of people are quite socially Conservative but economically left.. they wouldn't vote for the Multi culti, types that Titania McGrath etc are parodies of
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Scott_P said:
    Scott_P said:
    Must have been a squash in there, with that elephant in the committee room.....
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    In which case, Parliament will revoke.
    How?

    VONC the government, hold a GE, have a pro-revoke party win - all by Friday?
    The WDA is dead, so the only choice parliament would have is no deal or revoke. It has voted overwhelmingly against no deal on several occasions so........
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited April 2019

    Two observations about this black hole news:

    1) I will clearly never make a theoretical physicist because despite asking in a couple of places no one has yet given me a clear explanation about why we see a halo rather than a ball of light. This is clearly a defect in me.

    2) I can't get Muse out of my head.

    I naively thought we were viewing the accretion disk face on (conservation of angular momentum causes infalling material to form a disk rather than a halo around the black hole). So the black bit in the middle is inside the event horizon where light cannot escape.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    RobD said:

    Two observations about this black hole news:

    1) I will clearly never make a theoretical physicist because despite asking in a couple of places no one has yet given me a clear explanation about why we see a halo rather than a ball of light. This is clearly a defect in me.

    2) I can't get Muse out of my head.

    I naively thought we were viewing the accretion disk face on (conservation of angular momentum causes infalling material to form a disk, rather than a halo around the black hole). So the black bit in the middle is inside the event horizon where light cannot escape.
    Veritasium on YT has a good explaination of what you’re seeing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    They're all dancing around but only when they can fix the blame on someone else will Parliament revoke. The last three months have been all about the blame-game.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    In which case, Parliament will revoke.
    TM will not revoke
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    And he was getting on so well with Macron....

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1116008015558266881

    I must say I am quite enjoying in an odd sort of our way our new vassal status. Rather than having breathless reports from Parliament about incomprehensible motions we just wait for tweets from foreign leaders or the lovely Katya Adler (or Matt Frei - if you watch Channel 4) telling us what the EU panjandrums have lined up for us.

    It's quite relaxing really. I have been enjoying the sunshine and have been planting out gladioli and crinum Powell alba (lilies) (without gloves, naughty me, because I like to live dangerously). Later, we will learn our fate and, with luck, I will be able to avoid the olive oil and loo roll riots in central London next Monday.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    I agree. MPs should vote through the WA.
    Labour MPs wont..
    I've heard Ken Clarke say several times that referendums are as much use as an opinion poll.
    Attlee said they are alien to our national life and Thatcher called them tools of dictators and demagogues. Which was a commonly accepted view when those who remembered the 1930s were still alive.
    The Swiss and Irish of course seem to cope with them just fine. In Switzerland the politicians serve the voters not the other way round - due in no small part to their regular direct democracy.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858

    Hurrah! The Virgin brand cheapens everything it touches.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    In which case, Parliament will revoke.
    TM will not revoke
    Yet we were hearing last week that May realizes that a no-deal Brexit would inevitably lead to the dissolution of the United Kingdom and had accepted that revoking was the lesser evil.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    edited April 2019
    isam said:

    The SDP manifesto is probably more interesting to them than Labour's. Plenty of people are quite socially Conservative but economically left.. they wouldn't vote for the Multi culti, types that Titania McGrath etc are parodies of

    Or as one of those 'types', Ash Sarkar, would put it, did put it - they like their racism with a side helping of nationalized utilities.

    Which TBF is bang on the money as regards the SDP's recent convert, Rod Liddle.

    (But yes, economically left, socially conservative, that is a valid and interesting offering, so long as it does not slide into 'deplorables' territory, which IMO it does tend to.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    rpjs said:

    Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858

    Hurrah! The Virgin brand cheapens everything it touches.
    Everyone will be whores with cheering when after 23 miserable years they finally go.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, the electorate was told pre-vote that its decision would be final and would be implemented, and, post-vote, MPs voted overwhelmingly to respect that and trigger Article 50.

    Saying "It was all just pretend" now is as credible as wandering into a Tunisian wreath-laying ceremony and claiming you were "present but not involved".

    The electorate was also told No Deal wouldn't happen, we held all the cards etc.
    Well, the first of those statements was true enough.
    I think we're 54 and a half hours away from No Deal.

    Someone vetoes the extension.

    Which leaves revocation.

    Theresa ain't going to revoke so we accidentally fall out.
    Absolutely no chance we crash out with No Deal. You have been beating this drum for eons.

    IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

    We will see who is right.
    I hope you are right but one of the options under serious consideration tonight by the EU leaders is to refuse an extension beyond the EU elections (23rd May) and require the UK to do one of the following: WDA - no deal - revoke

    It may just happen if the EU take that choice and it is a real possibility
    In which case, Parliament will revoke.
    TM will not revoke
    No - she will subcontract to Olly Letwin to do it via a vote.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019

    Two observations about this black hole news:

    1) I will clearly never make a theoretical physicist because despite asking in a couple of places no one has yet given me a clear explanation about why we see a halo rather than a ball of light. This is clearly a defect in me.

    2) I can't get Muse out of my head.

    Boy, its more than I dare to think about
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    RobD said:

    I naively thought we were viewing the accretion disk face on (conservation of angular momentum causes infalling material to form a disk rather than a halo around the black hole). So the black bit in the middle is inside the event horizon where light cannot escape.

    LOL. Silly you.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Any tweet or comment where the person isn't brave enough to go on the record should be ignored - the words of a non entity.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    The SDP manifesto is probably more interesting to them than Labour's. Plenty of people are quite socially Conservative but economically left.. they wouldn't vote for the Multi culti, types that Titania McGrath etc are parodies of

    Or as one of those 'types', Ash Sarkar, would put it, did put it - they like their racism with a side helping of nationalized utilities.

    Which TBF is bang on the money as regards the SDP's recent convert, Rod Liddle.

    (But yes, economically left, socially conservative, that is a valid and interesting offering, so long as it does not slide into 'deplorables' territory, which IMO it does tend to.)
    Matthew Goodwin often says the gap for a new party is precisely that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Exactly , I am in Hamelin at present , centre is pedestrianised , well kept , full of all sorts of shops large and small, cafes, restaurants , bars etc , and very busy. It can be done if we had any decent governement, councils , etc instead of donkeys pocketing fat pay cheques for squalor.
  • ydoethur said:

    rpjs said:

    Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858

    Hurrah! The Virgin brand cheapens everything it touches.
    Everyone will be whores with cheering when after 23 miserable years they finally go.
    They are the country's best ranked long distance train company.

    Something like a 90% plus satisfaction rating.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Taxman, revoking a referendum result is not the status quo, nor is the EU a static organisation. For both ideological and purely mechanical reasons, it trends towards integration. And every step down that path will be one pace further away from what the people voted for. Every change will rankle.

    It was a non- binding Referendum. In other words an opinion poll with as much legal legitimacy. People normally choose an option different to one that is currently on offer because it is better. Brexit is an option that will deliver nothing but pain! Time to Revoke A50.
    I don't recall any politician saying "this is just an opinion poll" back in 2016. They gave us the impression that the vote was rather important.
    Sufficiently important to reduce our politics to chaos for nearly three years and make the UK into a laughing stock around the world.

    Enough already.
    Far more important than that. Besides if that was the criteria for dumping things we would have got rid of Parliament years ago. They have been a laughing stock for far longer than Brexit.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sounds as though the brick wall has finally managed to knock some sense into their heads.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    rpjs said:

    Well this is disappointing, Virgin is my favourite train company.

    Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson says his train business could disappear from the UK after its partner Stagecoach was barred from three rail franchise bids.

    Sir Richard, whose Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach, said he was "devastated" by the disqualification.

    The Department for Transport (DfT) disallowed the bids because they did not meet pensions rules.

    Virgin was bidding to renew the West Coast franchise in partnership with Stagecoach and France's SNCF.

    Stagecoach had also put in for the East Midlands and South Eastern franchises, both of which have been rejected.

    In a blog on Virgin's corporate website, Sir Richard said Virgin Trains "could be gone from the UK in November".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47877858

    Hurrah! The Virgin brand cheapens everything it touches.
    Everyone will be whores with cheering when after 23 miserable years they finally go.
    They are the country's best ranked long distance train company.

    Something like a 90% plus satisfaction rating.
    That's like saying somebody is the most popular serial killer.
This discussion has been closed.