This doesn't seem to have received much attention, but if it's correct it is a really major development:
Meanwhile the Evening Standard can reveal that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has warned Cabinet ministers that they are powerless to stop a soft Brexit if a cross-party group of MPs succeeds in getting an Act of Parliament passed this week.
Mr Cox’s verdict that the Government faces being legally out-gunned by Parliament is significant as it means that the Cabinet’s own legal chief believes that Sir Oliver Letwin’s plan to use an Act of Parliament to require a softer Brexit plan will have the full force of the law behind it.
Mr Cox is understood to have told at least two groups of ministers that any attempt to ignore or challenge the Act would be doomed to failure.
Mr Cox warned them that the Government could be obliged by the courts to show “good faith” and strive to implement the decision of Parliament.
I quite like Amber Rudd. She seems a bit more human than the others.
The only 2 Ministers who have put themselves forward repeatedly have been Rory Stewart and Tobias Ellwood, neither of them in the Cabinet, but willing to put themselves in the line of fire. Speaks well of them and very badly of Cabinet Ministers who have been silent or back-biting or speaking through others off the record.
Just to correct something that @Sean_F said on the previous thread: the laws I am talking about in relation to Parkfield are the laws which exist re homosexuality being legal, gay marriage being legal, discrimination against gay people being unlawful. The Parkfield protestors are, bluntly, protesting for the right to opt out of those laws. No.
The argument needs to be framed properly. This is not about the rights of parents to teach their children their religion since there is nothing to stop this. This is about whether religion should trump the state. And the answer is no. Just as we would not - or should not - tolerate parents agitating for their children not to be taught about Islam or not to have Muslim teachers or, heaven forfend, not having Muslim boys in their childrens' class because they might groom their girls, we should not tolerate Muslim parents agitating for their children not to be taught about homosexuality or not to have gay teachers or gay children in class.
Opting out of this fight out of fear or because the Minister won't win any kudos or because she's scared of being accused of islamophobia or racism or whatever is pathetic. That is not what leadership is. If you are in politics you have to deal with these difficult problems not run away. The problems will only get worse if we run away from them. Bullies need to be stood up to. There was a time when British politicians understood this in their bones.
If Mordaunt or Damian Hinds don't know what to say, I'll write the bloody speech for them.
What she said.
Education is contentious because the state's mandates and the parents' beliefs may collide. We have laws to protect gay rights and these trump religion. The UK is not a theocracy.
Indeed. As anyone who has ever been on duty at a Parents' Evening will confirm, parents' beliefs often collide with logic, practicality, fairness, and occasionally the Laws of Physics.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Rudd and Stewart are the two humans, and possibly Liddington aswell.
However I think only a publicly confirmed Brexiter will be supported.
Stewart is. Rudd is an obnoxious buffoon.
Stewart is hapless. Rudd, neither obnoxious nor a buffoon, would make an excellent PM.
On the strength of Rudd’s stint at the Home Office and lack of compassion for Windrush and her lack of achievement at the DWP since she returned to Cabinet you mean ? I beg to differ.
I was talking about Stewart as a person not expressing an opinion of his competence. However, outside politics he has an excellent record. He won’t be a credible candidate because he has achieved nothing in politics.
This doesn't seem to have received much attention, but if it's correct it is a really major development:
Meanwhile the Evening Standard can reveal that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has warned Cabinet ministers that they are powerless to stop a soft Brexit if a cross-party group of MPs succeeds in getting an Act of Parliament passed this week.
Mr Cox’s verdict that the Government faces being legally out-gunned by Parliament is significant as it means that the Cabinet’s own legal chief believes that Sir Oliver Letwin’s plan to use an Act of Parliament to require a softer Brexit plan will have the full force of the law behind it.
Mr Cox is understood to have told at least two groups of ministers that any attempt to ignore or challenge the Act would be doomed to failure.
Mr Cox warned them that the Government could be obliged by the courts to show “good faith” and strive to implement the decision of Parliament.
This doesn't seem to have received much attention, but if it's correct it is a really major development:
Meanwhile the Evening Standard can reveal that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has warned Cabinet ministers that they are powerless to stop a soft Brexit if a cross-party group of MPs succeeds in getting an Act of Parliament passed this week.
Mr Cox’s verdict that the Government faces being legally out-gunned by Parliament is significant as it means that the Cabinet’s own legal chief believes that Sir Oliver Letwin’s plan to use an Act of Parliament to require a softer Brexit plan will have the full force of the law behind it.
Mr Cox is understood to have told at least two groups of ministers that any attempt to ignore or challenge the Act would be doomed to failure.
Mr Cox warned them that the Government could be obliged by the courts to show “good faith” and strive to implement the decision of Parliament.
This doesn't seem to have received much attention, but if it's correct it is a really major development:
Meanwhile the Evening Standard can reveal that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has warned Cabinet ministers that they are powerless to stop a soft Brexit if a cross-party group of MPs succeeds in getting an Act of Parliament passed this week.
Mr Cox’s verdict that the Government faces being legally out-gunned by Parliament is significant as it means that the Cabinet’s own legal chief believes that Sir Oliver Letwin’s plan to use an Act of Parliament to require a softer Brexit plan will have the full force of the law behind it.
Mr Cox is understood to have told at least two groups of ministers that any attempt to ignore or challenge the Act would be doomed to failure.
Mr Cox warned them that the Government could be obliged by the courts to show “good faith” and strive to implement the decision of Parliament.
On top of the political reality that if Parliament finally manages to find a way forward that commands majority support, the government will be faced with a pivot/resign choice, this is almost certainly right.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Raab is a lightweight and a moron. He couldn't hack it as Brexit secretary. Yeah: May undermined him. So what? He should have been a damn sight tougher. If he can't deal with that, he doesn't have the balls needed to be leader or PM.
Frankly, no-one in the Cabinet particularly impresses. The Tories are split, are messing up the country and need to go away into a darkened corner and grow up before bothering the rest of us.
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Rudd and Stewart are the two humans.
Johnny Mercer is a reasonable human and would solidify the southern and south western vote. Truss is very human. Moreso then Rudd for me. Rory is great but old etonian, that's problematic
But. You ignore the obvious and salient point that none of those three has ever held a big post in government. Only one has even been in the Cabinet. This is a PM we are talking about here. It is like looking for a new CEO, and scouting round the sales, warehouse or admin staff.
We're likely to get a PM - Corbyn - who has even less achievement to his name than any of these junior MPs. Frankly, those in Cabinet at the moment are pretty bloody useless. The Tories need to get rid of their loons and skip a generation. Or get in a short-term leader to steady the ship in the meanwhile: Ken Clarke.
Ken Clarke for GNU PM!! OT, it still amazes me that anyone could still be duped by the philandering blond charlatan. None of his behaviours suggest he is in the least bit more "human" than Mrs May. The author of that article is seriously clutching at straws. I'd like to suggest that maybe they are a member of Boris's family, but that is unlikely as even they all think he is a twat.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Rudd and Stewart are the two humans, and possibly Liddington aswell.
However I think only a publicly confirmed Brexiter will be supported.
Stewart is. Rudd is an obnoxious buffoon.
Stewart is hapless. Rudd, neither obnoxious nor a buffoon, would make an excellent PM.
On the strength of Rudd’s stint at the Home Office and lack of compassion for Windrush and her lack of achievement at the DWP since she returned to Cabinet you mean ? I beg to differ.
I was talking about Stewart as a person not expressing an opinion of his competence. However, outside politics he has an excellent record. He won’t be a credible candidate because he has achieved nothing in politics.
Rudd was misled by her civil servants and was subsequently contrite, indeed she resigned when she realised she had inadvertently misled the house. She took responsibility and gave up her post and I can't remember the last time that happened.
This doesn't seem to have received much attention, but if it's correct it is a really major development:
Meanwhile the Evening Standard can reveal that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has warned Cabinet ministers that they are powerless to stop a soft Brexit if a cross-party group of MPs succeeds in getting an Act of Parliament passed this week.
Mr Cox’s verdict that the Government faces being legally out-gunned by Parliament is significant as it means that the Cabinet’s own legal chief believes that Sir Oliver Letwin’s plan to use an Act of Parliament to require a softer Brexit plan will have the full force of the law behind it.
Mr Cox is understood to have told at least two groups of ministers that any attempt to ignore or challenge the Act would be doomed to failure.
Mr Cox warned them that the Government could be obliged by the courts to show “good faith” and strive to implement the decision of Parliament.
Yes, it would. We'd have the bizarre position of parliament directing the government, on the most significant policy issue of the day, to do something which it didn't want to do, and which was fiercely opposed by a majority of its MPs.
No sensible Tory would give a GE proposal more than five minutes' thought right now.
The only basis on which the Tories could back an early GE is that "your Brexit was stolen from you by the opposition". Which requires a few more weeks' patience, at least.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Raab is a lightweight and a moron. He couldn't hack it as Brexit secretary. Yeah: May undermined him. So what? He should have been a damn sight tougher. If he can't deal with that, he doesn't have the balls needed to be leader or PM.
Frankly, no-one in the Cabinet particularly impresses. The Tories are split, are messing up the country and need to go away into a darkened corner and grow up before bothering the rest of us.
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
Perhaps not a moron, but definitely a lightweight.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Raab is a lightweight and a moron. He couldn't hack it as Brexit secretary. Yeah: May undermined him. So what? He should have been a damn sight tougher. If he can't deal with that, he doesn't have the balls needed to be leader or PM.
Frankly, no-one in the Cabinet particularly impresses. The Tories are split, are messing up the country and need to go away into a darkened corner and grow up before bothering the rest of us.
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
He did not understand about the importance of the Dover-Calais route to our trade. I don't give two hoots about his academic record. I have spent over three decades dealing with people with fantastic academic records who are as stupid as fuck. Being good at whatever he was doing before he became an MP says nothing about his achievements as an MP and there and in Cabinet he has not distinguished himself. He looks - and is - out of his depth.
Cool. I went to the Gatow air museum the time before last, good if you like your aircraft in sweaty 'original' condition. Mostly Cold War stuff though they had older exhibits in the main hangar.
The USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB is the aircraft museum sans pareil. Just don't drive in the wrong gate unless you want an M4 stuck in your face by a 19 year old with poor trigger discipline. (Voice of experience)
I would make a plea for the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, both the one in Washington and the annex near the airport. 747s, Concorde, Space Shuttles, Apollo, SR71s, all the fun stuff. Plus it has the 707 prototype in the old Boeing banana-and-chocolate livery, which looked really good.
That 707 is the very plane that Tex Johnson barrel-rolled at an air display. There's footage on youtube somewhere. Nutter.
It was a Dash 80 (progenitor of the RC/KC-135) not a 707 (different fuselage among other things).
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Raab is a lightweight and a moron. He couldn't hack it as Brexit secretary. Yeah: May undermined him. So what? He should have been a damn sight tougher. If he can't deal with that, he doesn't have the balls needed to be leader or PM.
Frankly, no-one in the Cabinet particularly impresses. The Tories are split, are messing up the country and need to go away into a darkened corner and grow up before bothering the rest of us.
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
He did not understand about the importance of the Dover-Calais route to our trade. I don't give two hoots about his academic record. I have spent over three decades dealing with people with fantastic academic records who are as stupid as fuck. Being good at whatever he was doing before he became an MP says nothing about his achievements as an MP and there and in Cabinet he has not distinguished himself. He looks - and is - out of his depth.
I thought the whole point of these votes were that they weren't to be whipped so that they truly showed the view of the house, not what the party leaders want?
Surely if it is whipped it gives cover to the government to ignore it as they can say it wasn't a free vote.
Cool. I went to the Gatow air museum the time before last, good if you like your aircraft in sweaty 'original' condition. Mostly Cold War stuff though they had older exhibits in the main hangar.
The USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB is the aircraft museum sans pareil. Just don't drive in the wrong gate unless you want an M4 stuck in your face by a 19 year old with poor trigger discipline. (Voice of experience)
I would make a plea for the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, both the one in Washington and the annex near the airport. 747s, Concorde, Space Shuttles, Apollo, SR71s, all the fun stuff. Plus it has the 707 prototype in the old Boeing banana-and-chocolate livery, which looked really good.
That 707 is the very plane that Tex Johnson barrel-rolled at an air display. There's footage on youtube somewhere. Nutter.
It was a Dash 80 (progenitor of the RC/KC-135) not a 707 (different fuselage among other things).
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Raab is a lightweight and a moron. He couldn't hack it as Brexit secretary. Yeah: May undermined him. So what? He should have been a damn sight tougher. If he can't deal with that, he doesn't have the balls needed to be leader or PM.
Frankly, no-one in the Cabinet particularly impresses. The Tories are split, are messing up the country and need to go away into a darkened corner and grow up before bothering the rest of us.
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
It is remarkable, I agree. Leaving aside Brexit, Raab comes across as an intelligent and mostly competent functionary. But his woes as Brexit secretary can't really be blamed on anyone else. I think Raab suffers from being neither the out and out charlatan of Johnson, nor the deluded fool of Davis, nor the compulsive obsessive of Gove.
Which I guess is saying most Brexiteers have big character faults and those that don't can't cope.
I thought the whole point of these votes were that they weren't to be whipped so that they truly showed the view of the house, not what the party leaders want?
Surely if it is whipped it gives cover to the government to ignore it as they can say it wasn't a free vote.
Whipping is fairly irrelevant right now, they all do what they want anyway
Was pootling through the Chilterns yesterday and somebody had put up a large hand-painted sign, on the side of the dual carriageway, saying "We voted LEAVE. Anything else is TREACHERY."
I haven't been out and about much recently. If this now a normal thing?
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Rudd and Stewart are the two humans.
Johnny Mercer is a reasonable human and would solidify the southern and south western vote. Truss is very human. Moreso then Rudd for me. Rory is great but old etonian, that's problematic
But. You ignore the obvious and salient point that none of those three has ever held a big post in government. Only one has even been in the Cabinet. This is a PM we are talking about here. It is like looking for a new CEO, and scouting round the sales, warehouse or admin staff.
Normally yes but perhaps in these extraordinary times it's a clean sheet that the country needs. Politics has fallen so far it needs renewal.
I like what I've seen of Brokenshire but I'm not sure he wants the job or has a powerbase. His name is a dream for headline writers too.
Was pootling through the Chilterns yesterday and somebody had put up a large hand-painted sign, on the side of the dual carriageway, saying "We voted LEAVE. Anything else is TREACHERY."
I haven't been out and about much recently. If this now a normal thing?
False flag operation; you can tell because it is correctly spelled and punctuated.
I thought the whole point of these votes were that they weren't to be whipped so that they truly showed the view of the house, not what the party leaders want?
Surely if it is whipped it gives cover to the government to ignore it as they can say it wasn't a free vote.
In Labour's case most of their MPs would be incapable of knowing what they are supposed to think without their daily email from the whips' office.
Cool. I went to the Gatow air museum the time before last, good if you like your aircraft in sweaty 'original' condition. Mostly Cold War stuff though they had older exhibits in the main hangar.
The USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB is the aircraft museum sans pareil. Just don't drive in the wrong gate unless you want an M4 stuck in your face by a 19 year old with poor trigger discipline. (Voice of experience)
I would make a plea for the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, both the one in Washington and the annex near the airport. 747s, Concorde, Space Shuttles, Apollo, SR71s, all the fun stuff. Plus it has the 707 prototype in the old Boeing banana-and-chocolate livery, which looked really good.
That 707 is the very plane that Tex Johnson barrel-rolled at an air display. There's footage on youtube somewhere. Nutter.
It was a Dash 80 (progenitor of the RC/KC-135) not a 707 (different fuselage among other things).
I know. The 707 prototype in the musuem *is* the Dash 80.
I keep hearing that if you want any flavour of Brexit you have to pass the withdrawal agreement. But my biggest problem is the settled status scheme - I want it scrapped. So if I voted for Common Market 2.1 / Norway / Nick Boles for PM, doesn't that come with Freedom of Movement and wipe out the settled status scheme? So wouldn't that need a complete re-write of the Withdrawal Agreement sections on citizen rights? So it doesn't seem right to me to say that all Brexits go through this Withdrawal agreement. Can anyone shed any light on this?
What did Mark Francois' military service consist of?
He was in the SAS.
The Saturdays and Sundays as the regular army troops call it.
He was as infantry officer in the TA for six years.
Royal Anglian Regiment. A good regiment. Six years is a short tenure for the TA. I guess he was only there for the mess dinners and then his uniform got too small.
No sensible Tory would give a GE proposal more than five minutes' thought right now.
The only basis on which the Tories could back an early GE is that "your Brexit was stolen from you by the opposition". Which requires a few more weeks' patience, at least.
It would also require people to believe that the opposition was responsible for the failure of the government to persuade its own MPs to support its flagship policy. Which is quite a big ask.
I thought the whole point of these votes were that they weren't to be whipped so that they truly showed the view of the house, not what the party leaders want?
Surely if it is whipped it gives cover to the government to ignore it as they can say it wasn't a free vote.
I would have thought so. A whipped vs free vote gives no proper indication of what the Commons wants.
The Tories can't pick someone who a lot of people already hate before they have even got started. That would rule out Boris, Gove, Hunt and possibly Javid after the last few months. That's four out of the top five favourites for the job. Raab is in a decent position as a relatively unknown Brexiteer, who remainers in the party could potentially trust.
I keep hearing that if you want any flavour of Brexit you have to pass the withdrawal agreement. But my biggest problem is the settled status scheme - I want it scrapped. So if I voted for Common Market 2.1 / Norway / Nick Boles for PM, doesn't that come with Freedom of Movement and wipe out the settled status scheme? So wouldn't that need a complete re-write of the Withdrawal Agreement sections on citizen rights? So it doesn't seem right to me to say that all Brexits go through this Withdrawal agreement. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Thanks, Confused of PB
All rights remain the same in the transition period, but if we've signalled that's where we want to be then that can just continue with small changes for EFTA protections on freedom of movement for workers.
I keep hearing that if you want any flavour of Brexit you have to pass the withdrawal agreement. But my biggest problem is the settled status scheme - I want it scrapped. So if I voted for Common Market 2.1 / Norway / Nick Boles for PM, doesn't that come with Freedom of Movement and wipe out the settled status scheme? So wouldn't that need a complete re-write of the Withdrawal Agreement sections on citizen rights? So it doesn't seem right to me to say that all Brexits go through this Withdrawal agreement. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Thanks, Confused of PB
I'm pretty sure the EU wants Citizens' Rights enshrined in a Treaty, and the government would want UK Citizens' Rights in the EU to be governed by Treaty as well.
I keep hearing that if you want any flavour of Brexit you have to pass the withdrawal agreement. But my biggest problem is the settled status scheme - I want it scrapped. So if I voted for Common Market 2.1 / Norway / Nick Boles for PM, doesn't that come with Freedom of Movement and wipe out the settled status scheme? So wouldn't that need a complete re-write of the Withdrawal Agreement sections on citizen rights? So it doesn't seem right to me to say that all Brexits go through this Withdrawal agreement. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Thanks, Confused of PB
Common Market 2.x would supersede the settled status scheme, once it had been negotiated and ratified. However that would take at least two years, and very probably more, so the Withdrawal Agreement would apply in the meanwhile.
The key point is that any alternative approach needs a long extension. Unless you believe the suggestions this lunchtime that a CU PD could be quickly negotiated in time for exit on 12 April.
I keep hearing that if you want any flavour of Brexit you have to pass the withdrawal agreement. But my biggest problem is the settled status scheme - I want it scrapped. So if I voted for Common Market 2.1 / Norway / Nick Boles for PM, doesn't that come with Freedom of Movement and wipe out the settled status scheme? So wouldn't that need a complete re-write of the Withdrawal Agreement sections on citizen rights? So it doesn't seem right to me to say that all Brexits go through this Withdrawal agreement. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Thanks, Confused of PB
Without the WA the EU will not negotiate anything regarding the future relationship given their rather absurd sequencing rule.
I posted last week that I was warming to the CM2.0 proposal. Whilst I have many concerns about it, and think it may not give us the degree of real freedom May's deal would in parts do, it does at least avoid the backstop problem, and allow the referendum to be notionally fulfilled - we will actually leave, and presumably could do so in May.
Moreover, I don't see why CM2.0 should necessarily tear apart the Tory Party either in Parliament or the country.
How do we get there though? Does it complement the May WA (with backstop) and result in an amended PD to take us to the CM2.0 future? Or do we have to rip up the WA and negotiate, over the next year of an extension, a new CM2.0 WA?
If it means WA as drafted + PD, then if it all goes belly up and the Govt can't get a majority on whatever is negotiated for the CM2.0 deal in the future, haven't we just got ourselves to May's deal anyway by the back door, but having resolved the parliamentary impasse we currently have?
I thought the whole point of these votes were that they weren't to be whipped so that they truly showed the view of the house, not what the party leaders want?
Surely if it is whipped it gives cover to the government to ignore it as they can say it wasn't a free vote.
I would have thought so. A whipped vs free vote gives no proper indication of what the Commons wants.
Whipped votes clearly work well for Theresa May don't they?
As a Remainer I’m beginning to get seriously pissed off with the Peoples Vote .
This all or nothing approach isn’t going to work . They need to accept a compromise and support Common Market 2.0. At least those in the opposition need to support both but to vote against that seems very shortsighted .
This does deliver quite a lot for Leavers . Boles and co though need to stress how the UK could add some restrictions on freedom of movement .
Don’t get me wrong if a second vote happened I would be very happy but at this point it’s hard to see that .
We know that letwins clever ideas rarely work out well. Be quite something if he managed to cause a GE, a Corbyn win and a massive lurch to the left, when he is trying to force a status quo centre right outcome.
As a Remainer I’m beginning to get seriously pissed off with the Peoples Vote .
This all or nothing approach isn’t going to work . They need to accept a compromise and support Common Market 2.0. At least those in the opposition need to support both but to vote against that seems very shortsighted .
This does deliver quite a lot for Leavers . Boles and co though need to stress how the UK could add some restrictions on freedom of movement .
Don’t get me wrong if a second vote happened I would be very happy but at this point it’s hard to see that .
Have the EU signalled they would agree to compromise on their four freedoms? Seems to be a bit of a shot in the dark.
NEW - Downing Street sources confirm whipping for tonight - Tory MPs will be instructed to vote against the business motion, setting up indicative votes; given free votes on the Brexit options; but cabinet ministers will (again) be ordered to abstain.
We know that letwins clever ideas rarely work out well. Be quite something if he managed to cause a GE, a Corbyn win and a massive lurch to the left, when he is trying to force a status quo centre right outcome.
The other day, Matthew Parris is a rubbish writer, now Amber Rudd is an obnoxious buffoon!
There is no flesh & blood unit on this earth who is able to exercise completely impartial judgment, but I do wonder if you are further from this unattainable ideal than most?
NEW - Downing Street sources confirm whipping for tonight - Tory MPs will be instructed to vote against the business motion, setting up indicative votes; given free votes on the Brexit options; but cabinet ministers will (again) be ordered to abstain.
Feels like it is all cover to ignore. If labour whip, may can say so and that her ministers didn't vote (and it means they don't have to resign). If that is a wise move is another thing entirely.
As a Remainer I’m beginning to get seriously pissed off with the Peoples Vote .
This all or nothing approach isn’t going to work . They need to accept a compromise and support Common Market 2.0. At least those in the opposition need to support both but to vote against that seems very shortsighted .
This does deliver quite a lot for Leavers . Boles and co though need to stress how the UK could add some restrictions on freedom of movement .
Don’t get me wrong if a second vote happened I would be very happy but at this point it’s hard to see that .
It has the distinct merit of being the option which satisfies the referendum vote, while least pissing off the half of the electorate that don’t want Brexit.
Cyclefree makes a good point about those willing to put themselves forward, repeatedly, contrasted with your Hunts and Javids mostly sitting back leaking and moaning and generally being half arsed as they keep both eyes on the leadership not just one eye. Both have massively dropped in my eyes because both want to do the fate minimum for a deal they should have worked harder to sell if they remained in government on it. Again, Gove has put in the effort.
The other day, Matthew Parris is a rubbish writer, now Amber Rudd is an obnoxious buffoon!
There is no flesh & blood unit on this earth who is able to exercise completely impartial judgment, but I do wonder if you are further from this unattainable ideal than most?
There is no way on god's earth trump is a single figure golfer. As a youth I played a lot and got down to 5, and to get past that you have to be really really good. One look at that swing and it is more 28 than 2.8
Cyclefree makes a good point about those willing to put themselves forward, repeatedly, contrasted with your Hunts and Javids mostly sitting back leaking and moaning and generally being half arsed as they keep both eyes on the leadership not just one eye. Both have massively dropped in my eyes because both want to do the fate minimum for a deal they should have worked harder to sell if they remained in government on it. Again, Gove has put in the effort.
A very good point indeed.
And it might be argued May herself fell into this category prior to becoming PM. Not a good precedent.
Thanks for all responses on my citizens rights query a few moments ago. All helpful even if they don't all agree. I guess it depends on how desperate EU really are to get us accepting the WA compared to a long extension for a different approach.
The key point is that any alternative approach needs a long extension. Unless you believe the suggestions this lunchtime that a CU PD could be quickly negotiated in time for exit on 12 April.
Exactly, that is the point. Which is why PV supporters should not be worried about backing CM2. It will require a long delay while the details are worked out, and when the details are worked out it will be seen that it is not really a very sensible way forward as it keeps the UK in the EU economic structure without any say in the political structure. So there would be little point in leaving. When people realise that the pressure for reversal will grow.
NEW - Downing Street sources confirm whipping for tonight - Tory MPs will be instructed to vote against the business motion, setting up indicative votes; given free votes on the Brexit options; but cabinet ministers will (again) be ordered to abstain.
Feels like it is all cover to ignore. If labour whip, may can say so and that her ministers didn't vote (and it means they don't have to resign). If that is a wise move is another thing entirely.
Everyone knows the cabinet is completely fractured over Brexit - but I'd say there is a May Deal/No Deal majority within it. We're way beyond normal process now - so I simply don't see the issue with giving cabinet a free vote. Limit the abstentions to perhaps Home, Foreign, PM and Chancellor if you must.
NEW - Downing Street sources confirm whipping for tonight - Tory MPs will be instructed to vote against the business motion, setting up indicative votes; given free votes on the Brexit options; but cabinet ministers will (again) be ordered to abstain.
Feels like it is all cover to ignore. If labour whip, may can say so and that her ministers didn't vote (and it means they don't have to resign). If that is a wise move is another thing entirely.
Everyone knows the cabinet is completely fractured over Brexit - but I'd say there is a May Deal/No Deal majority within it. We're way beyond normal process now - so I simply don't see the issue with giving cabinet a free vote. Limit the abstentions to perhaps Home, Foreign, PM and Chancellor if you must.
Well another thought...it's quite useful for all those thinking of replacing her. They won't have voted for any particular option, so can spin in whatever direction looks best among the party faithful.
There is no way on god's earth trump is a single figure golfer. As a youth I played a lot and got down to 5, and to get past that you have to be really really good. One look at that swing and it is more 28 than 2.8
The key point is that any alternative approach needs a long extension. Unless you believe the suggestions this lunchtime that a CU PD could be quickly negotiated in time for exit on 12 April.
Exactly, that is the point. Which is why PV supporters should not be worried about backing CM2. It will require a long delay while the details are worked out, and when the details are worked out it will be seen that it is not really a very sensible way forward as it keeps the UK in the EU economic structure without any say in the political structure. So there would be little point in leaving. When people realise that the pressure for reversal will grow.
The SNP have worked this out. Sadly the LibDems seem slower on the uptake.
As a Remainer I’m beginning to get seriously pissed off with the Peoples Vote .
This all or nothing approach isn’t going to work . They need to accept a compromise and support Common Market 2.0. At least those in the opposition need to support both but to vote against that seems very shortsighted .
This does deliver quite a lot for Leavers . Boles and co though need to stress how the UK could add some restrictions on freedom of movement .
Don’t get me wrong if a second vote happened I would be very happy but at this point it’s hard to see that .
I think CM2.0 has merit. It is essentially SM+CU with a light sprinkling of unicorns to help get it through. It think we are most likely to end up with a bespoke hybrid customs union and FTA with deep integration into the EU system covering agriculture and fisheries as well as goods. Immigration will be included, as probably will third country trade. It's a question of how we get there.
Is a common market deal even in the table from the EU? I thought it was a customs unions, may deal or nothing?
Sure it would be, but the result would breach basically all TMay's red lines.
Although I don't think the version of it that would be negotiable looks anything like the Common Market 2.0 proposal currently being hawked around Westminster.
There is no way on god's earth trump is a single figure golfer. As a youth I played a lot and got down to 5, and to get past that you have to be really really good. One look at that swing and it is more 28 than 2.8
6'3, 240 pounds and a handicap under 3.
He is like the previous north Korea leader who was a natural at golf with all those holes in one.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Rudd and Stewart are the two humans.
Johnny Mercer is a reasonable human and would solidify the southern and south western vote. Truss is very human. Moreso then Rudd for me. Rory is great but old etonian, that's problematic
But. You ignore the obvious and salient point that none of those three has ever held a big post in government. Only one has even been in the Cabinet. This is a PM we are talking about here. It is like looking for a new CEO, and scouting round the sales, warehouse or admin staff.
We're likely to get a PM - Corbyn - who has even less achievement to his name than any of these junior MPs. Frankly, those in Cabinet at the moment are pretty bloody useless. The Tories need to get rid of their loons and skip a generation. Or get in a short-term leader to steady the ship in the meanwhile: Ken Clarke.
He is respected, experienced, willing to compromise even though his preference is well known and given his age unlikely to want the job for the long haul.
Obviously the Bakers of the world would go ballistic, but presumably there are downsides too. Even with him willing to compromise the members would presumably go mad if he took over even if just to implement parliament choosing something softer. These people want no deal rather than accept it if parliament picked something else, 170 MPs even.
Is a common market deal even in the table from the EU? I thought it was a customs unions, may deal or nothing?
Sure it would be, but the result would breach basically all TMay's red lines.
Although I don't think the version of it that would be negotiable looks anything like the Common Market 2.0 proposal currently being hawked around Westminster.
The key point is that any alternative approach needs a long extension. Unless you believe the suggestions this lunchtime that a CU PD could be quickly negotiated in time for exit on 12 April.
Exactly, that is the point. Which is why PV supporters should not be worried about backing CM2. It will require a long delay while the details are worked out, and when the details are worked out it will be seen that it is not really a very sensible way forward as it keeps the UK in the EU economic structure without any say in the political structure. So there would be little point in leaving. When people realise that the pressure for reversal will grow.
It would require no real extension at all beyond the May 22nd date. Since it is only for insertion into the PD rather than the WA it could be arranged very quickly. It needs no detail as the PD is only a list of aspirations.
I would expect the EU to jump at the chance to get this over the line and then worry about the negotiations of the final details over the two year transition period.
Most of the names are failures just jockeying for a future Cabinet place. Those with a genuine chance in my view are Boris, who is a marmite character, Raab, who is being wrongly smeared by May’s office, Hunt, who has done nothing except alienate the medical profession and junior doctors in particular, and Gove, whose credibility is shot having alienated the teachers and stabbed both Cameron and Boris in the back.
Out of that lot Raab has the best chance I think as he's got the fewest enemies... Although the Murdoch press will support Hunt for what that's worth these days...
Rudd and Stewart are the two humans, and possibly Liddington aswell.
However I think only a Brexiter will be supported.
Rudd will be out at the next election. She's done.
Rory The Tory has no Cabinet experience.
Liddington? Can't see it but you never know...
Whatever happened to the boundary review proposal coming back to the Commons?
Shouldn't we start worrying about the withdrawal symptions we will all be suffering at the end of all this?
I think if Brexit is 'done' by the end of this month, we'll be pretty much nailed on a General Election later this year, and will be moving onto a Conservative party leadership election almost immediately.
At the start of the year, people predicted what the year might consist of, and almost everyone said very 'busy', though I recall one person predicting first quarter very busy, then quiet as it all settled down. Well, at the start of Q2 it certainly doesn't look like its going to be quiet yet.
As a Remainer I’m beginning to get seriously pissed off with the Peoples Vote .
This all or nothing approach isn’t going to work . They need to accept a compromise and support Common Market 2.0. At least those in the opposition need to support both but to vote against that seems very shortsighted .
This does deliver quite a lot for Leavers . Boles and co though need to stress how the UK could add some restrictions on freedom of movement .
Don’t get me wrong if a second vote happened I would be very happy but at this point it’s hard to see that .
Have the EU signalled they would agree to compromise on their four freedoms? Seems to be a bit of a shot in the dark.
They wouldn't compromise on the 'four freedoms'. We'd be subject to the full freedom of movement directive, plus obviously conforming to EU regulations on goods and services etc, adhering to the state subsidy rules, paying a fat fee (although probably less than as a full member), and probably EU environmental law and the social chapter. It really would not be very much different from full EU membership except we'd be out of the political structures, have no say (other than the right to lobby, like Norway) in regulations, and probably be out of the CAP and CFP (although the latter could be contentious).
It seems a daft idea to me - we might as well remain full members if we're going to accept all that lot - but if those who voted Leave can be conned into acquiescing in it, I suppose it has merit as a face-saving option, certainly compared with the full-on disaster of crashing out.
Edit: Corrected missing 'not' from 'It really would not be very much different..'
Comments
Meanwhile the Evening Standard can reveal that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has warned Cabinet ministers that they are powerless to stop a soft Brexit if a cross-party group of MPs succeeds in getting an Act of Parliament passed this week.
Mr Cox’s verdict that the Government faces being legally out-gunned by Parliament is significant as it means that the Cabinet’s own legal chief believes that Sir Oliver Letwin’s plan to use an Act of Parliament to require a softer Brexit plan will have the full force of the law behind it.
Mr Cox is understood to have told at least two groups of ministers that any attempt to ignore or challenge the Act would be doomed to failure.
Mr Cox warned them that the Government could be obliged by the courts to show “good faith” and strive to implement the decision of Parliament.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chief-whip-julian-smith-accuses-mps-of-trying-to-undermine-theresa-may-in-bbc-documentary-on-brexit-a4105671.html
Sell
Matt Hancock 46.01 £146.32 £6,585.72
Buy
Matt Hancock 153.97 £108.87 £16,653.88
I was talking about Stewart as a person not expressing an opinion of his competence. However, outside politics he has an excellent record. He won’t be a credible candidate because he has achieved nothing in politics.
What did Mark Francois' military service consist of?
If something gets 310 plus tonight its game on
His academic record suggests otherwise to the accusation of being a moron. His employment record before before becoming an MP pushes strongly back against your accusation. Something to do with Westminster perhaps.
OT, it still amazes me that anyone could still be duped by the philandering blond charlatan. None of his behaviours suggest he is in the least bit more "human" than Mrs May. The author of that article is seriously clutching at straws. I'd like to suggest that maybe they are a member of Boris's family, but that is unlikely as even they all think he is a twat.
Blimey.. there are only 29 including the PM and those "in attendance".
(Dear Telegraph.. not all ministers are cabinet ministers)
The only basis on which the Tories could back an early GE is that "your Brexit was stolen from you by the opposition". Which requires a few more weeks' patience, at least.
It's almost as if the DT is making up as it goes along!
FPT _ Thank you everyone for the advice given.
Shows that they are still more concerned about the Tory party than about the country. Bastards.
Do you want me to post my Jeremy Hunt, Matt Hancock, David Lidington, and Sir Michael Fallon David Gauke positions?
Game on.
The Saturdays and Sundays as the regular army troops call it.
He was as infantry officer in the TA for six years.
Meanwhile UK aspires to reaching those heady heights
Surely if it is whipped it gives cover to the government to ignore it as they can say it wasn't a free vote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE
Which I guess is saying most Brexiteers have big character faults and those that don't can't cope.
I haven't been out and about much recently. If this now a normal thing?
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/boeing-367-80-jet-transport
I keep hearing that if you want any flavour of Brexit you have to pass the withdrawal agreement. But my biggest problem is the settled status scheme - I want it scrapped. So if I voted for Common Market 2.1 / Norway / Nick Boles for PM, doesn't that come with Freedom of Movement and wipe out the settled status scheme? So wouldn't that need a complete re-write of the Withdrawal Agreement sections on citizen rights? So it doesn't seem right to me to say that all Brexits go through this Withdrawal agreement. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Thanks,
Confused of PB
Moreover, I don't see why CM2.0 should necessarily tear apart the Tory Party either in Parliament or the country.
How do we get there though? Does it complement the May WA (with backstop) and result in an amended PD to take us to the CM2.0 future? Or do we have to rip up the WA and negotiate, over the next year of an extension, a new CM2.0 WA?
If it means WA as drafted + PD, then if it all goes belly up and the Govt can't get a majority on whatever is negotiated for the CM2.0 deal in the future, haven't we just got ourselves to May's deal anyway by the back door, but having resolved the parliamentary impasse we currently have?
This all or nothing approach isn’t going to work . They need to accept a compromise and support Common Market 2.0. At least those in the opposition need to support both but to vote against that seems very shortsighted .
This does deliver quite a lot for Leavers . Boles and co though need to stress how the UK could add some restrictions on freedom of movement .
Don’t get me wrong if a second vote happened I would be very happy but at this point it’s hard to see that .
NEW - Downing Street sources confirm whipping for tonight - Tory MPs will be instructed to vote against the business motion, setting up indicative votes; given free votes on the Brexit options; but cabinet ministers will (again) be ordered to abstain.
There is no flesh & blood unit on this earth who is able to exercise completely impartial judgment, but I do wonder if you are further from this unattainable ideal than most?
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/new-book-claims-trump-cheats-at-the-highest-level-on-the-golf-course-11681097
There is no way on god's earth trump is a single figure golfer. As a youth I played a lot and got down to 5, and to get past that you have to be really really good. One look at that swing and it is more 28 than 2.8
And it might be argued May herself fell into this category prior to becoming PM. Not a good precedent.
Obviously the Bakers of the world would go ballistic, but presumably there are downsides too. Even with him willing to compromise the members would presumably go mad if he took over even if just to implement parliament choosing something softer. These people want no deal rather than accept it if parliament picked something else, 170 MPs even.
I would expect the EU to jump at the chance to get this over the line and then worry about the negotiations of the final details over the two year transition period.
At the start of the year, people predicted what the year might consist of, and almost everyone said very 'busy', though I recall one person predicting first quarter very busy, then quiet as it all settled down. Well, at the start of Q2 it certainly doesn't look like its going to be quiet yet.
It seems a daft idea to me - we might as well remain full members if we're going to accept all that lot - but if those who voted Leave can be conned into acquiescing in it, I suppose it has merit as a face-saving option, certainly compared with the full-on disaster of crashing out.
Edit: Corrected missing 'not' from 'It really would not be very much different..'