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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Chris said:

    Yes, you commented that anti-Muslim prejudice had become normalised. Then you went on to say it wasn't surprising, and I commented that that in itself was an illustration of how it had become acceptable. I suggested you applied the test of substituting "Muslims" for "Jews".

    Your response to that was the stuff we've seen over and over again, about Muslims being terrorists and Jews not being terrorists. Surely you could see that wasn't the point?

    And of course I didn't accuse you of bigotry - I said that what you had written was an excuse for bigotry. Wasn't that amply borne out by the subsequent discussion?

    And as for my "motives", what the hell do you think you know about them? Just say what you have to say, please.

    I've no idea what your motives are, that's the point. In normal discourse you seem quite sensible, but you seem to have some problem with this topic being calmly discussed, and you wilfully misunderstand and misrepresent what I and others have said.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    edited March 2019
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Not long now until the next Incredible Important Vote Until The Next One.

    Edited extra bit: Incredibly*.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    The other aspect is what people claim is “discrimination.”

    For example it is possible to argue legitimately for integration not multiculturalism.

    Someone on the right night argue that without integration you create the basis for alienation and disassociation and create an environment where terrorist can flourish. So it is rational and the right thing to do to encourage integration, possibly from first principles and possibly as a reaction to terrorism.

    Someone on the left, however, might believe that the desire for integration represents extreme anti-Muslim prejudice because you are insisting they give up essential elements of their historical culture by, for example, insisting on equal rights for women and homosexuals.

    TBF, the driver of Islamophobia is rarely a passionate desire to further the interests of women and homosexuals.
    I do enjoy watching the eyeballs of some people start to spin as they perform the mental gymnastics required for them to support traditional British values (like tolerance for gay rights) or the rights of parents (Muslim ones) to dictate what their kids schools' teach.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Chris said:

    Yes, you commented that anti-Muslim prejudice had become normalised. Then you went on to say it wasn't surprising, and I commented that that in itself was an illustration of how it had become acceptable. I suggested you applied the test of substituting "Muslims" for "Jews".

    Your response to that was the stuff we've seen over and over again, about Muslims being terrorists and Jews not being terrorists. Surely you could see that wasn't the point?

    And of course I didn't accuse you of bigotry - I said that what you had written was an excuse for bigotry. Wasn't that amply borne out by the subsequent discussion?

    And as for my "motives", what the hell do you think you know about them? Just say what you have to say, please.

    I've no idea what your motives are, that's the point. In normal discourse you seem quite sensible, but you seem to have some problem with this topic being calmly discussed, and you wilfully misunderstand and misrepresent what I and others have said.
    Or maybe you have a problem with it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    Caught up with the Maybot speech. Yawn. No salesmanship, and no willingness to listen. Her defence of her deal seems tired and cliched; just going through the motions. And it's clear that Parliament is telling her to get lost on the idea that her deal is the only one in town. What a waste of a PM, when you think of the JAMs and the burning injustices she once railed against. Past her best-before date sadly.

    One question: we're all talking about how many MPS will back her deal, but do we see any going the other way? Who voted for it before but no longer support it? Would be a good PR opportunity for an enterprising backencher, particularly on the remain side with the prize of indicative votes clearly in sight. Any names in the frame?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,253
    edited March 2019
    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,586

    Important and weighty as all this discussion of racism is, I think you guys might be missing Brexit collapsing in front of our eyes right now. Jeremy Hunt was blaming the EU this morning. And May has just warned that we might not get Brexit at all if her deal doesn't go through. (You know, the one that was less popular with parliament than Charles the First.)

    We are not at the 59th minute of the 11th hour yet, nor shall we be for a bit yet. That is when we know.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Given she was saying this back in September: “I didn’t understand things like when elections are fought, for example, in Northern Ireland – people who are nationalists don’t vote for unionist parties and vice versa", her ignorance is utterly remarkable for a secretary of state, and it is now clear that she lacks either the will or the capacity to educate herself about her brief.

    Soubry is correct.
    May needs to carry the can for this appointment, which looks singularly uninspired....
    FFS, is there a single inspired cabinet appointment ?
    (i'll grant maybe a couple rise just above the mediocre.)
    Bradley is there for unswerving loyalty and a trouble-free existence. Once one of those disappears, I tend to agree her usefulness declines. That said, a cabinet reshuffle is probably not on TM's to-do list in the next few weeks.
    It's one of the things that makes a new PM hugely attractive though. Clear out the dead wood.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    TGOHF said:

    The Telegraph this morning allowed Fraser Nelson to tout a conspiracy theory that Philip Hammond has been sabotaging Brexit, complete with cartoon portraying him as an evil mad scientist. The hardliners are nowhere near ready to accept responsibility for their own failings yet.

    Are you telling us that Phil has been working hard to get the Brexit that the people voted for ?

    If so I have a bridge for sale.
    'the Brexit that the people voted for'
    That would be the one where 66% wanted to stay in the Single Market (see prev PB article).
    Well yes he probably has.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    One thing May has managed to do extraordinarily well is weaponise the poisoned chalice. She knows no-one else wants the job until there is light at the end of the tunnel.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    It's one of the things that makes a new PM hugely attractive though. Clear out the dead wood.

    That's a keeper, for when BoZo appoints a cabinet entirely from the ranks of the braindead...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Given she was saying this back in September: “I didn’t understand things like when elections are fought, for example, in Northern Ireland – people who are nationalists don’t vote for unionist parties and vice versa", her ignorance is utterly remarkable for a secretary of state, and it is now clear that she lacks either the will or the capacity to educate herself about her brief.

    Soubry is correct.
    May needs to carry the can for this appointment, which looks singularly uninspired....
    FFS, is there a single inspired cabinet appointment ?
    (i'll grant maybe a couple rise just above the mediocre.)
    Bradley is there for unswerving loyalty and a trouble-free existence. Once one of those disappears, I tend to agree her usefulness declines. That said, a cabinet reshuffle is probably not on TM's to-do list in the next few weeks.
    It's one of the things that makes a new PM hugely attractive though. Clear out the dead wood.
    Which begs a rather large question about where the replacement sound timber is to be sourced...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,586

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Having pondered it for two and a half years, can we agree Brexit mean's Brexit and move onto more important things?

    Not if you're going to abuse the apostrophe like that... :smile:
    I am happy to take the apostrophe for the nation. We all have to make sacrifices in this time of crisis.
    O tempora! O mores!
    Salus populi suprema est lex
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    Scott_P said:

    It's one of the things that makes a new PM hugely attractive though. Clear out the dead wood.

    That's a keeper, for when BoZo appoints a cabinet entirely from the ranks of the braindead...
    Andrea Jenkyns for Foreign Secretary.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    Really interesting, could be incredibly dangerous for her. Surely the second is impossible; it's her deal that she spent 2 years negotiating. So she will have to fall back on selling the deal she's got - which she seems totally unsuited to do.

    Yesterday's thread (I think a quote from John Rentoul) had a much more promising approach but it looks like she just can't do it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes in a way, but no because it is Israel not the Jews.

    Indeed. Israel is not the Jews. Just as ISIS, say, is not the Muslims. In fact far less so, based on relative numbers.

    Conclusion - either both antisemitism and islamophobia are in some cases understandable or neither are.

    Yes?
    Of course they are understandable. I understand many of the causes of islamophobia and anti-semitism. I believe @Richard_Nabavi said that a degree of whatever word he used I don't think islamophobia is not surprising in the light of the Islamic terrorists trying to blow us up. There is also plenty of anti-semitism around and that is not surprising either.

    What exact point are you and @Chris trying to make?
    Just that Richard Nabavi said anti-Muslim prejudice was unsurprising, and I suggested the test of substituting "Jew" for "Muslim" in what he had just written. You responded by implying that wouldn't be appropriate because there was Muslim terrorism but not Jewish terrorism.

    My point, of course, was that anti-Muslim prejudice and antisemitism were equally bad, but - from your response - you seemed to disagree. Now you seem to be broadly agreeing.

    My "exact point" really is that I'm puzzled by what your "exact point" was in drawing a distinction between Jews and Muslims in relation to terrorism. That's what kicked off the whole argument.
    By your logic, this article excuses and justifies murder:
    Not at all. My objection is to singling one group out and saying prejudice against them is "unsurprising".
    You really do need to look at your own motives. Why on earth are you so blind that you can't see that I was making a completely uncontroversial point about the likely factors behind the rise in Islamophobia, no different in principle to looking at possible factors behind a rise in knife crime?

    I suggest you start again and read what I wrote, and then apologise. I don't mind too much that you accused me of bigotry - that's so daft that no-one could take it seriously - but accusing me of being like Boris FFS!
    Are you implying that it is plausible that you are like Boris?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Charles said:

    Are you implying that it is plausible that you are like Boris?

    Good point. I'll withdraw my call for an apology!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    The other aspect is what people claim is “discrimination.”

    For example it is possible to argue legitimately for integration not multiculturalism.

    Someone on the right night argue that without integration you create the basis for alienation and disassociation and create an environment where terrorist can flourish. So it is rational and the right thing to do to encourage integration, possibly from first principles and possibly as a reaction to terrorism.

    Someone on the left, however, might believe that the desire for integration represents extreme anti-Muslim prejudice because you are insisting they give up essential elements of their historical culture by, for example, insisting on equal rights for women and homosexuals.

    TBF, the driver of Islamophobia is rarely a passionate desire to further the interests of women and homosexuals.
    You caught me out on that one 😁

    How about addressing the substance of the point?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,149
    edited March 2019
    I haven't been too engaged over the last two days mainly because so much of politics today is unfathomable and even petty.

    I have not listened to TM speech today because I am convinced that her deal and no deal will fall next week and we are heading to Norway+ or remain, and both are ok by me

    I have received several e mails from TIG with interesting ideas and requests for donations which I have not yet contributed to but I am keeping an open mind, just in case ERG take over which would not be acceptable to me.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    tpfkar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    Really interesting, could be incredibly dangerous for her. Surely the second is impossible; it's her deal that she spent 2 years negotiating. So she will have to fall back on selling the deal she's got - which she seems totally unsuited to do.

    Yesterday's thread (I think a quote from John Rentoul) had a much more promising approach but it looks like she just can't do it.
    The Telegraph have an article on key points during the brexit negotiations. One was that the backstop was discussed at full Cabinet and agreed by the Cabinet with at least Boris, DD and Gove objecting.

    I think she would appreciate a little help from the other Cabinet members that agreed with the backstop but they seem to not have "moral fibre" or they have leadership ambitions.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Fair question.

    I would expect her to let the HOC dictate the way forward and if we move to Norway she should conclude the deal and then retire. If a referendum, I expect she would have to defend her deal and if lost resign

    The party needs a complete shakeup anyway and the sooner the better
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Compare and contrast:

    Jeremy Corbyn, today's speech at the Scottish Labour conference:

    We believe that the real divide in our society is not between people who voted yes or no for independence. And it’s not between people who voted to remain or to leave the EU.

    The real divide is between the many – who do the work, create the wealth and pay their taxes – and the few, who set the rules, reap the rewards and dodge their taxes. So let me spell it out: our mission is to back the working class, in all its diversity.


    Theresa May, 2016 Conference speech:

    But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.

    So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff... a director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…

    I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.

    A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.

    So today, I want to set out my plan for a Britain where everyone plays by the same rules and every person has the opportunity to be all they want to be.

    One caused howls of rage from metropolitan luvvies and the other will attract safe notes and murmured agreement
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
    Dislike, fear, mistrust, and loathing of Islam is entirely rational in western societies. From fgm to mass racial underage gang rape to de facto blasphemy laws to sharia courts to the burka and niqab to the threat of constant terrorism to cousin marriage (plus defective babies) to honour killings to homophobia to etc etc etc

    Mass Islamic immigration into the west has been a total disaster. Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us? Nothing but trouble, rape, violence, and maybe the end of the Enlightenment. Everybody knows this, everybody thinks this, polls show 50% or more of westerners agree with this and want Islamic immigration to end ENTIRELY.

    Only pb liberals pretend otherwise.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    edited March 2019
    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330

    It was reported that she had left the refugee camp because of threats by hardline ISIS supporters.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
    Indeed!

    :smile:
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
    Cox will provide some weasel words that mean nothing but will provide enough cover for some of the ERG to back the deal without appear too abject. Whether the DUP will be convinced I'm not sure. If they are she'd be getting close to a majority and might then be able to justify a third MV.

    I think that is what she is hoping for.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
    The something appears to be - as I suggested - an independent body to confirm that BOTH sides are keeping to their obligations in the Withdrawal Agreement. The problem is that the ERG will not support this if there is even a single EU member on the body. And the EU will not believe that this isn't all a plot by the DUP/UK government if they don't get to have an observer. (AIUI, they have no issue with us having a member of the panel to even things out.)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Given she was saying this back in September: “I didn’t understand things like when elections are fought, for example, in Northern Ireland – people who are nationalists don’t vote for unionist parties and vice versa", her ignorance is utterly remarkable for a secretary of state, and it is now clear that she lacks either the will or the capacity to educate herself about her brief.

    Soubry is correct.
    May needs to carry the can for this appointment, which looks singularly uninspired....
    FFS, is there a single inspired cabinet appointment ?
    (i'll grant maybe a couple rise just above the mediocre.)
    Bradley is there for unswerving loyalty and a trouble-free existence. Once one of those disappears, I tend to agree her usefulness declines. That said, a cabinet reshuffle is probably not on TM's to-do list in the next few weeks.
    It's one of the things that makes a new PM hugely attractive though. Clear out the dead wood.
    Which begs a rather large question about where the replacement sound timber is to be sourced...
    I would reluctantly agree to serve if asked
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
    The something appears to be - as I suggested - an independent body to confirm that BOTH sides are keeping to their obligations in the Withdrawal Agreement. The problem is that the ERG will not support this if there is even a single EU member on the body. And the EU will not believe that this isn't all a plot by the DUP/UK government if they don't get to have an observer. (AIUI, they have no issue with us having a member of the panel to even things out.)
    Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary I am reluctant to accept that the ERG are that stupid. Yet.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    It's similar to the UK making snarky comments about the EU but the EU, having the internet, being able to see what's going on over here. Likewise, the ERG for all their Francois's* and Bridgens, probably have plenty of lawyers also and so the wording which will have to come to relate to the backstop will have to be particularly nuanced.

    *what is the plural/apostrophe situation here?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
    Cox will provide some weasel words that mean nothing but will provide enough cover for some of the ERG to back the deal without appear too abject. Whether the DUP will be convinced I'm not sure. If they are she'd be getting close to a majority and might then be able to justify a third MV.

    I think that is what she is hoping for.
    If that is as good as it gets....Christ.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330

    It is very uncharitable, but part of me thought that it might be deliberate to engender sympathy
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    I walked out of Starbucks the other day because, my first visit in a long while, I was shocked to be charged £2.70 for an americano (the cheapest drink on the menu). That is simply too much for a cup of coffee.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited March 2019
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    It's similar to the UK making snarky comments about the EU but the EU, having the internet, being able to see what's going on over here. Likewise, the ERG for all their Francois's* and Bridgens, probably have plenty of lawyers also and so the wording which will have to come to relate to the backstop will have to be particularly nuanced.

    *what is the plural/apostrophe situation here?
    Or similar to the EU Presidents and negotiating team high-fiving each other and gloating about how they managed to get a deal that completely screws the British for years to come.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
    The something appears to be - as I suggested - an independent body to confirm that BOTH sides are keeping to their obligations in the Withdrawal Agreement. The problem is that the ERG will not support this if there is even a single EU member on the body. And the EU will not believe that this isn't all a plot by the DUP/UK government if they don't get to have an observer. (AIUI, they have no issue with us having a member of the panel to even things out.)
    Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary I am reluctant to accept that the ERG are that stupid. Yet.
    The ERG believe that the EU is Antichrist. And, there can be no agreement between the children of Light, and the children of Darkness.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Read the comments following that one.

    It really is a collective madness
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    edited March 2019
    Charles said:

    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330

    It is very uncharitable, but part of me thought that it might be deliberate to engender sympathy
    Well her lawyer is an interesting character....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    SeanT said:

    Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us?

    It has bought us Unification of the ElectroWeak Forces (Abdus Salam).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    It's similar to the UK making snarky comments about the EU but the EU, having the internet, being able to see what's going on over here. Likewise, the ERG for all their Francois's* and Bridgens, probably have plenty of lawyers also and so the wording which will have to come to relate to the backstop will have to be particularly nuanced.

    *what is the plural/apostrophe situation here?

    No apostrophe and an -es ending for plural. Like keeping up with the Joneses
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873

    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330

    3 dead children at 18. She is a stupid, potentially dangerous and clearly deluded young woman but that is brutal by any standard.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    I haven't been too engaged over the last two days mainly because so much of politics today is unfathomable and even petty.

    I have not listened to TM speech today because I am convinced that her deal and no deal will fall next week and we are heading to Norway+ or remain, and both are ok by me

    I have received several e mails from TIG with interesting ideas and requests for donations which I have not yet contributed to but I am keeping an open mind, just in case ERG take over which would not be acceptable to me.

    How do they know who you are? Just asking...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    Something that has been traditional in the King's Cross area for decades in one form or another.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,873
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    I am sure that Geoffrey Cox will get her something. Whether she has to make something of nothing remains to be seen.
    The something appears to be - as I suggested - an independent body to confirm that BOTH sides are keeping to their obligations in the Withdrawal Agreement. The problem is that the ERG will not support this if there is even a single EU member on the body. And the EU will not believe that this isn't all a plot by the DUP/UK government if they don't get to have an observer. (AIUI, they have no issue with us having a member of the panel to even things out.)
    Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary I am reluctant to accept that the ERG are that stupid. Yet.
    The ERG believe that the EU is Antichrist. And, there can be no agreement between the children of Light, and the children of Darkness.
    I am not sure this is a particularly useful metaphor for dealing with bureaucrats, jobsworths, time servers and the odd fanatic. Or with the EU either.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    Its a small sponge cake, about the size of a biscuit.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    Is that a trick question?

    I bloody love Grace Dent.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    It's similar to the UK making snarky comments about the EU but the EU, having the internet, being able to see what's going on over here. Likewise, the ERG for all their Francois's* and Bridgens, probably have plenty of lawyers also and so the wording which will have to come to relate to the backstop will have to be particularly nuanced.

    *what is the plural/apostrophe situation here?

    No apostrophe and an -es ending for plural. Like keeping up with the Joneses
    You would have to be a pretty unpleasant bore to keep up with the Francoises
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    Something that has been traditional in the King's Cross area for decades in one form or another.
    I wouldn’t know Alastair...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    It's similar to the UK making snarky comments about the EU but the EU, having the internet, being able to see what's going on over here. Likewise, the ERG for all their Francois's* and Bridgens, probably have plenty of lawyers also and so the wording which will have to come to relate to the backstop will have to be particularly nuanced.

    *what is the plural/apostrophe situation here?

    No apostrophe and an -es ending for plural. Like keeping up with the Joneses
    A nation breathes easy. I might have to ask Robert to expunge my offending post from the records...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    Its a small sponge cake, about the size of a biscuit.
    It sounds very nice

    And presumably free.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Am I missing the gag here?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,724
    SeanT said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
    Dislike, fear, mistrust, and loathing of Islam is entirely rational in western societies. From fgm to mass racial underage gang rape to de facto blasphemy laws to sharia courts to the burka and niqab to the threat of constant terrorism to cousin marriage (plus defective babies) to honour killings to homophobia to etc etc etc

    Mass Islamic immigration into the west has been a total disaster. Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us? Nothing but trouble, rape, violence, and maybe the end of the Enlightenment. Everybody knows this, everybody thinks this, polls show 50% or more of westerners agree with this and want Islamic immigration to end ENTIRELY.

    Only pb liberals pretend otherwise.
    My wife, technically, is a Muslim - or at least would be seen as such by small-minded idiots.

    Therefore you can fuck. right. off, you fetid, horrid little diseased pustule.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    Its a small sponge cake, about the size of a biscuit.
    It sounds very nice

    And presumably free.
    Free with your £15 cup of coffee.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bradley may not be very good, but the reaction to her comments is absurdly overblown. As @David L says, these people need to get over themselves.

    In general (and in another context), I'd agree, but NI Secretary is a role where you really do need to be careful how you choose your words. She just doesn't seem to be very good.
    I wouldn't argue that she isn't useless, even lawyers have limits, but as I pointed out last week the idea that a cabinet minister should resign for merely being useless is a dangerous one indeed, especially to a cabinet (still!!) including Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, Mundell....

    It is of course even more dangerous to a PM who has misplaced her majority.
    True. In any case, this little storm in a rock-pool is about to be engulfed by the tsunami of Brexit chaos.
    Indeed. Can May really survive another heavy defeat? There has to come a point when we conclude that if May is the answer we are asking the wrong question.
    Before we even get to the vote, there could be a really difficult moment. At the moment it's unclear that there is going to be any movement at all from the EU on the backstop. If there isn't, it would leave her in an incredibly difficult position: does she say 'oh well, can't be helped, vote for my deal anyway as the least bad available', or does she say 'sadly, I have to report that the intransigence of the EU means I can no longer recommend that the House supports the deal'. Either course looks fatal.
    It's similar to the UK making snarky comments about the EU but the EU, having the internet, being able to see what's going on over here. Likewise, the ERG for all their Francois's* and Bridgens, probably have plenty of lawyers also and so the wording which will have to come to relate to the backstop will have to be particularly nuanced.

    *what is the plural/apostrophe situation here?
    Or similar to the EU Presidents and negotiating team high-fiving each other and gloating about how they managed to get a deal that completely screws the British for years to come.
    Do stop dribbling. Your anti-EU paranoia, and those like you that share it are the reason why we are in the mess we are in. Completely unnecessarily I might add.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    You might want to delete that post!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2019
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    er, surely the other way round?? ie complementary/complimentary - the Graun of all papers has it right.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    Erhhh...

    "Complimentary light refreshments will be available."

    https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/04/13/compliment-or-complement/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    edited March 2019
    Charles might need to contact SeanT on how to go to about scrubbing ones PB posts...
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    Er, if it's free, that's correct, no?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Charles might need to contact SeanT on how to go to about scrubbing your PB posts...

    Am preparing for a whitewash bigger than Hutton :o
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2019
    OK ENOUGH WITH POINTING OUT CHARLES' ERROR.

    We don't want to draw attention to it.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    Scott_P said:
    Lack of imagination?

    Ireland has always been a special place where magic happens. Applying that approach to the RoI-NI border would have been the solution.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    TOPPING said:

    OK ENOUGH WITH POINTING OUT CHARLES' ERROR.

    We don't want to draw attention to it.

    *Charles's
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Endillion said:

    TOPPING said:

    OK ENOUGH WITH POINTING OUT CHARLES' ERROR.

    We don't want to draw attention to it.

    *Charles's
    AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    er, surely the other way round?? ie complementary/complimentary - the Graun of all papers has it right.
    It’s a philosophical argument

    They are providing the madeleine as a complement to the coffee

    In @FrancisUrquhart example above “complimentary” coffees are “free coffees” not a supporting note

    😰
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    My money is on Cyclefree.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    SeanT said:

    Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us?

    It has bought us Unification of the ElectroWeak Forces (Abdus Salam).
    Which one of the Ghostbusters was he? (I assume we are talking about "crossing the streams"...?)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    All things considered, £15 is remarkably cheap for a bit of clickbait.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    er, surely the other way round?? ie complementary/complimentary - the Graun of all papers has it right.
    It’s a philosophical argument

    They are providing the madeleine as a complement to the coffee

    In @FrancisUrquhart example above “complimentary” coffees are “free coffees” not a supporting note

    😰
    Nice save ;)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    er, surely the other way round?? ie complementary/complimentary - the Graun of all papers has it right.
    It’s a philosophical argument

    They are providing the madeleine as a complement to the coffee

    In @FrancisUrquhart example above “complimentary” coffees are “free coffees” not a supporting note

    😰
    OOOOOH. I like your style. It's a stretch but yes you get away with it. Well done.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
    edited March 2019

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    Erhhh...

    "Complimentary light refreshments will be available."

    https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/04/13/compliment-or-complement/
    To be fair the madeleine might well be both complimentary and complementary.

    Ah, I see the point has been made - but I'm still puzzled as to why Charles thought it a spelling error...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    We can see why they pay Charles the big bucks...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    DavidL said:

    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330

    3 dead children at 18. She is a stupid, potentially dangerous and clearly deluded young woman but that is brutal by any standard.
    Either that, or she is one of those young mothers who check if there is any traffic coming by pushing their pram out into the road...
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    SeanT said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
    Dislike, fear, mistrust, and loathing of Islam is entirely rational in western societies. From fgm to mass racial underage gang rape to de facto blasphemy laws to sharia courts to the burka and niqab to the threat of constant terrorism to cousin marriage (plus defective babies) to honour killings to homophobia to etc etc etc

    Mass Islamic immigration into the west has been a total disaster. Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us? Nothing but trouble, rape, violence, and maybe the end of the Enlightenment. Everybody knows this, everybody thinks this, polls show 50% or more of westerners agree with this and want Islamic immigration to end ENTIRELY.

    Only pb liberals pretend otherwise.
    My wife, technically, is a Muslim - or at least would be seen as such by small-minded idiots.

    Therefore you can fuck. right. off, you fetid, horrid little diseased pustule.
    Having a number of very good friends who are Muslims I support and reiterate your understandable response to that revolting post. It is one of the most unpleasant and prejudiced, moronic posts I have ever seen on here. I hope he reflects on it and realises that it is completely inappropriate. Equivalent to vile anti-Semetism we would see from one of Corbyn's acolytes.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    DavidL said:

    British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's baby son has died in a refugee camp in Syria, her family's lawyer claims.

    https://twitter.com/MohammedAkunjee/status/1104022748509155330

    3 dead children at 18. She is a stupid, potentially dangerous and clearly deluded young woman but that is brutal by any standard.
    It is. But then that is the nature of the risks of travelling into a war-zone.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    er, surely the other way round?? ie complementary/complimentary - the Graun of all papers has it right.
    It’s a philosophical argument

    They are providing the madeleine as a complement to the coffee

    In @FrancisUrquhart example above “complimentary” coffees are “free coffees” not a supporting note

    😰
    Nice save ;)
    Thank you. Almost Gordon Banks’ level
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549

    SeanT said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
    Dislike, fear, mistrust, and loathing of Islam is entirely rational in western societies. From fgm to mass racial underage gang rape to de facto blasphemy laws to sharia courts to the burka and niqab to the threat of constant terrorism to cousin marriage (plus defective babies) to honour killings to homophobia to etc etc etc

    Mass Islamic immigration into the west has been a total disaster. Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us? Nothing but trouble, rape, violence, and maybe the end of the Enlightenment. Everybody knows this, everybody thinks this, polls show 50% or more of westerners agree with this and want Islamic immigration to end ENTIRELY.

    Only pb liberals pretend otherwise.
    My wife, technically, is a Muslim - or at least would be seen as such by small-minded idiots.

    Therefore you can fuck. right. off, you fetid, horrid little diseased pustule.
    I said Islam, not Muslims. An individual Muslim is no more objectionable than an individual Jew, Christian. homosexual, mongoose, astronaut, croissant or electric car.

    The trouble is that your wife’s religion is, at best, unenlightened, and in recent decades has become diseased by a vile extremism. This is indisputable. Inviting Muslims to live with us now is ls like inviting German nationalists to come over during the nazi era. Individually they are all probably the most honourable human beings, but their ideology has been hijacked and the risk isn’t worth it. I shall refrain from further and personal vulgar insults, like yours, because, I can’t be fucking arsed. Salaam
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261

    SeanT said:

    Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us?

    It has bought us Unification of the ElectroWeak Forces (Abdus Salam).
    And tempura batter, which apparently originated in Moslem Iberia, as we briefly touched on a few days back...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    Erhhh...

    "Complimentary light refreshments will be available."

    https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/04/13/compliment-or-complement/
    To be fair the madeleine might well be both complimentary and complementary.

    Ah, I see the point has been made - but I'm still puzzled as to why Charles thought it a spelling error...
    Cos anyone who thinks it’s free when they are paying £15 is a fool. It’s bundled pricing.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Scott_P said:
    Labour belatedly realise that making the books balance actually matters
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What’s a “complimentary Madeleine”?
    A free biscuit, with Proustian overtones.

    (The gastroporn in the Guardian is always hilarious, and the CIFers below outdo themselves with variants of the Three Yorkshiremen sketch.).
    I was more commenting on their inability to spell Richard, but thank you anyway!
    It was spelt correctly, wasn't it? Although the capital M is wrong.
    Complementary

    Not complimentary!

    As bad as infer/imply

    (The capital m was my spell check)

    @FrancisUrquhart
    er, surely the other way round?? ie complementary/complimentary - the Graun of all papers has it right.
    It’s a philosophical argument

    They are providing the madeleine as a complement to the coffee

    In @FrancisUrquhart example above “complimentary” coffees are “free coffees” not a supporting note

    😰
    Nice save ;)
    Thank you. Almost Gordon Banks’ level
    And the "spelling error" ? :smile:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    New Thread about betting and that.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    New Thread about betting and that.....

    It’ll never catch on.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Prejudice against Muslims is not irrational. It's understandable. Just as prejudice against the Jews is not irrational to Jeremy Corbyn and any like-minded lefty types.

    I'd say that islamophobia among westerners is if anything more irrational than antisemitism on the pro-palestinian hard left because whilst half the world's jews live in Israel, only a tiny fraction of the world's muslims are involved in ISIS and the like.

    But, bottom line for me, both are irrational and yet I do agree that they are at the same time understandable. Irrationality being perfectly understandable because people are irrational - look at Brexit.
    Dislike, fear, mistrust, and loathing of Islam is entirely rational in western societies. From fgm to mass racial underage gang rape to de facto blasphemy laws to sharia courts to the burka and niqab to the threat of constant terrorism to cousin marriage (plus defective babies) to honour killings to homophobia to etc etc etc

    Mass Islamic immigration into the west has been a total disaster. Apart from the curries. But we could have got Hindu Indians to cook them. So what else has Muslim migration brought us? Nothing but trouble, rape, violence, and maybe the end of the Enlightenment. Everybody knows this, everybody thinks this, polls show 50% or more of westerners agree with this and want Islamic immigration to end ENTIRELY.

    Only pb liberals pretend otherwise.
    My wife, technically, is a Muslim - or at least would be seen as such by small-minded idiots.

    Therefore you can fuck. right. off, you fetid, horrid little diseased pustule.
    I said Islam, not Muslims. An individual Muslim is no more objectionable than an individual Jew, Christian. homosexual, mongoose, astronaut, croissant or electric car.

    The trouble is that your wife’s religion is, at best, unenlightened, and in recent decades has become diseased by a vile extremism. This is indisputable. Inviting Muslims to live with us now is ls like inviting German nationalists to come over during the nazi era. Individually they are all probably the most honourable human beings, but their ideology has been hijacked and the risk isn’t worth it. I shall refrain from further and personal vulgar insults, like yours, because, I can’t be fucking arsed. Salaam
    Your simplistic and basically ignorant post was highly offensive and shows you in a very bad light; making you look like a prejudiced moron. You deserved the vulgar insult.
This discussion has been closed.