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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hobson’s choice – the issues facing the Labour movement

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  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    TOPPING said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    TOPPING said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Communist theory does not take human nature into account. It's as simple as that.

    I don't agree with that argument. I think capitalism encourages our worst impulses - selfishness, fear, etc - and in principle you could encourage our better impulses - empathy, cooperation, etc
    Communism requires highly centralised control. Inevitably this hands power to a small number of people. Human nature takes it's course, as that power is sought and gained by exactly the *wrong* people to have it.

    Whether capitalism encourages our worst impulses or not is a completely separate discussion.
    I think communism requires highly localised control. If the individual does not have control over their own work then they are not free. It requires cooperation over large scales, but centralisation is a danger.

    This is one reason why I'm so disappointed with Corbyn's old-fashioned calls for nationalisation, which simply replace private managers with state managers and more centralisation rather than less.
    And as we've seen within the party, he is rather partial to cronyism and nepotism. The state managers would be political animals, not businessmen/women, and the organisations would rapidly deteriorate. Remember British Rail?
    In defence of British Rail, they did a reasonable job at efficiently running the network given the constraints they were under. They were far from perfect, and had too much of a negative, shrinking attitude: but they could have been much worse.

    One of the things privatisation brought in was a can-do attitude that BR all too often lacked.
    I must have missed the 'can-do' attitude on the part of the train companies on the very frequent occasions I take the train. A can't do attitude – be it a refund for a late train, a seat when I have paid premium prices or even just some bloody ice for my drink – seems to be the common credo.
    Disagree. LNER (old virgin) is great imo. GNER has seemingly ancient rolling stock but the best onboard wifi, while GWR are also good (crap wifi).

    All staff (97%) are very much can-do with a big smile.
    Welcome to the club, Topping!

    LNER is a nationalised operator!
    It is still trading in every respect as though it was Virgin East Coast. The dead hand of the State has not yet enveloped it.

    :smile:
    Like last time? :wink:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-only-publicly-owned-railway-7188623
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm amazed anyone pays that close attention to which razor they buy.

    I'd consider boycotting Lush but the smell of their stuff is so hideous I didn't buy it in the first place.

    Heh, I just looked up the stats - had no idea Gilette was so utterly dominant in the razor market.
    Gillette controlled about 70 percent of the U.S. market a decade ago. Last year, its market share dropped to below 50 percent, according to Euromonitor. The company, owned by P&G, was forced to slash its razor prices by an average of 12 percent last year.

    Still massive share, but they now have a fair bit of competition.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    I'm amazed anyone pays that close attention to which razor they buy.

    I'd consider boycotting Lush but the smell of their stuff is so hideous I didn't buy it in the first place.


    That reminds me of one of my favourite jokes.

    Jean Paul-Sartre walks into a bar.

    Says to the barmaid, "Coffee, no cream" please.

    Barmaid says, "We don't have any cream. Would you like no milk instead?"
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    I'm amazed anyone pays that close attention to which razor they buy.

    I'd consider boycotting Lush but the smell of their stuff is so hideous I didn't buy it in the first place.

    I can recommend both Lidl 5 blade razors -excellent quality and value .
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Pulpstar said:

    I'm amazed anyone pays that close attention to which razor they buy.

    I'd consider boycotting Lush but the smell of their stuff is so hideous I didn't buy it in the first place.

    Heh, I just looked up the stats - had no idea Gilette was so utterly dominant in the razor market.
    slash its razor prices
    Great wordplay.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,622
    felix said:

    Justin 124 will breezily explain it all away....
    Who thought we'd live long enough to see the Tories 7 or 8% ahead of Labour in Scotland?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725
    _Anazina_ said:
    And AIUI that time they also cut (perhaps I should say 'slashed') the services they ran.

    As a matter of interest, do you understand how the current system works?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387

    Ed Davey (attacking Boris, but that's by the by):

    Instead of reducing crime, expanding Stop and Search will only increase discrimination and undermine the community relations police officers need to prevent knife crime.

    We know what is needed to tackle this knife crime epidemic: more police, more youth services and a proper public health approach.


    So we need to hire more police, but not allow them to do anything.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/mar/07/hammond-tells-tories-to-back-mays-deal-or-risk-softer-brexit--politics-live

    13:43

    A statement of the obvious. If extra police can't actually stop people who are carrying knives, what purpose would they be serving?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    It's amazing what people are prepared to be offended by these days.
    Food business makes new product, forces nobody to buy it or eat it, continues to stock existing products. Reaction? Fascists! I'll eat what I want!! Kill all vegans!!!
    Consumer products business makes harmless video suggesting that maybe men might be nicer to women (background: historically men have frequently not been very nice to women). Reaction? You hate men! I'll grow a beard to avoid buying your products!! Feminazis!!!
    Of course if anger is your thing, there are lots of things that one could legitimately be angry about. But may I respectfully suggest that these things are not worth it?

    Yes, rightwingers are very easily triggered. See that Casino Royale has boycotted Gillette because of their "Better Man' campaign. But, the brands take this collateral damage into account – the huge publicity they receive for cause marketing usually massively outweighs the collateral damage of a few gammonite protests.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.

    A big part of the reason for that is the viral furore on social media.

    Many brand consultants will now advise firms to do this, and encourage controversy, because it generates headlines and keeps them in the news for longer, thus driving up brand awareness and sales on both sides. I think Greggs was even prepared in advance to troll Piers Morgan about it.

    I think it’s dangerous in the long term but, for now, this is becoming a pretty mainstream tactic.
    It backfired for Gillette. You need to know your customer base. Trying to be "woke" is no good if that offends the people who are buying your product.
    Have you got any evidence that it backfired?

    People said the Nike campaign backfired –– until the sales figures came out.
    As you say, we shall have to wait until we see sales figures.

    But, here is a survey from YouGov. Certainly, the ads increased awareness of the brand, but reactions were negative, not positive.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/media/articles-reports/2019/02/01/ad-month-uk-gillette

    Not all cause marketing works. Lush is a good case in point. Their campaign against the police had to be dropped, due to its unpopularity.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:
    And AIUI that time they also cut (perhaps I should say 'slashed') the services they ran.

    As a matter of interest, do you understand how the current system works?
    There is a problem on PB insofar as nationalised railways are simply not allowed to run a good service, even when clear evidence is offered that they do/have run a good service. It really is a bizarre doctrine.

    I'd rather they had fewer services and ran them well, if there has to be a choice.

    And yes, I do understand how franchising 'works' (thanks for the patronising question) although in my view is does not work, and should be abandoned as a model.

    Like you, I am open to the concession model, as well as nationalisation for some networks which –as we have shown – works well in some cases.

    People seem to forget that the most popular railway in Britain is nationalised.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Ed Davey (attacking Boris, but that's by the by):

    Instead of reducing crime, expanding Stop and Search will only increase discrimination and undermine the community relations police officers need to prevent knife crime.

    We know what is needed to tackle this knife crime epidemic: more police, more youth services and a proper public health approach.


    So we need to hire more police, but not allow them to do anything.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/mar/07/hammond-tells-tories-to-back-mays-deal-or-risk-softer-brexit--politics-live

    13:43

    A statement of the obvious. If extra police can't actually stop people who are carrying knives, what purpose would they be serving?
    The tragedy is that the people most likely to be murdered in the knife-crime epidemic are precisely those black youths who the do-gooders complain are being discriminated against.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Sean_F said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.

    A big part of the reason for that is the viral furore on social media.

    Many brand consultants will now advise firms to do this, and encourage controversy, because it generates headlines and keeps them in the news for longer, thus driving up brand awareness and sales on both sides. I think Greggs was even prepared in advance to troll Piers Morgan about it.

    I think it’s dangerous in the long term but, for now, this is becoming a pretty mainstream tactic.
    It backfired for Gillette. You need to know your customer base. Trying to be "woke" is no good if that offends the people who are buying your product.
    Have you got any evidence that it backfired?

    People said the Nike campaign backfired –– until the sales figures came out.
    As you say, we shall have to wait until we see sales figures.

    But, here is a survey from YouGov. Certainly, the ads increased awareness of the brand, but reactions were negative, not positive.

    Yet it doesn't matter that most reactions were negative. That is the whole point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    Sean_F said:

    Ed Davey (attacking Boris, but that's by the by):

    Instead of reducing crime, expanding Stop and Search will only increase discrimination and undermine the community relations police officers need to prevent knife crime.

    We know what is needed to tackle this knife crime epidemic: more police, more youth services and a proper public health approach.


    So we need to hire more police, but not allow them to do anything.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/mar/07/hammond-tells-tories-to-back-mays-deal-or-risk-softer-brexit--politics-live

    13:43

    A statement of the obvious. If extra police can't actually stop people who are carrying knives, what purpose would they be serving?
    They could copy the highly effective Glasgow approach:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-45572691
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ed Davey (attacking Boris, but that's by the by):

    Instead of reducing crime, expanding Stop and Search will only increase discrimination and undermine the community relations police officers need to prevent knife crime.

    We know what is needed to tackle this knife crime epidemic: more police, more youth services and a proper public health approach.


    So we need to hire more police, but not allow them to do anything.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/mar/07/hammond-tells-tories-to-back-mays-deal-or-risk-softer-brexit--politics-live

    13:43

    A statement of the obvious. If extra police can't actually stop people who are carrying knives, what purpose would they be serving?
    They could copy the highly effective Glasgow approach:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-45572691
    They should. But in Glasgow they started with more intensive policing and more stop-and-search in order to address the short-terms crisis before those excellent longer-term measures bore fruit.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    _Anazina_ said:

    It's amazing what people are prepared to be offended by these days.
    Food business makes new product, forces nobody to buy it or eat it, continues to stock existing products. Reaction? Fascists! I'll eat what I want!! Kill all vegans!!!
    Consumer products business makes harmless video suggesting that maybe men might be nicer to women (background: historically men have frequently not been very nice to women). Reaction? You hate men! I'll grow a beard to avoid buying your products!! Feminazis!!!
    Of course if anger is your thing, there are lots of things that one could legitimately be angry about. But may I respectfully suggest that these things are not worth it?

    Yes, rightwingers are very easily triggered. See that Casino Royale has boycotted Gillette because of their "Better Man' campaign. But, the brands take this collateral damage into account – the huge publicity they receive for cause marketing usually massively outweighs the collateral damage of a few gammonite protests.
    G*mm*ns typically shave. Woke bearded hippy types, well, don't.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Le nouveau thread est arrivé.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Sean_F said:

    Ed Davey (attacking Boris, but that's by the by):

    Instead of reducing crime, expanding Stop and Search will only increase discrimination and undermine the community relations police officers need to prevent knife crime.

    We know what is needed to tackle this knife crime epidemic: more police, more youth services and a proper public health approach.


    So we need to hire more police, but not allow them to do anything.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/mar/07/hammond-tells-tories-to-back-mays-deal-or-risk-softer-brexit--politics-live

    13:43

    A statement of the obvious. If extra police can't actually stop people who are carrying knives, what purpose would they be serving?
    But great ammunition for those who wish to bash the government. They should of course be measuring outcomes not inputs. A million extra police will make no difference, if they don’t leave their cars and aren’t allowed to chase suspects in case the little scrotes get injured.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725
    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:
    And AIUI that time they also cut (perhaps I should say 'slashed') the services they ran.

    As a matter of interest, do you understand how the current system works?
    There is a problem on PB insofar as nationalised railways are simply not allowed to run a good service, even when clear evidence is offered that they do/have run a good service. It really is a bizarre doctrine.

    I'd rather they had fewer services and ran them well, if there has to be a choice.

    And yes, I do understand how franchising 'works' (thanks for the patronising question) although in my view is does not work, and should be abandoned as a model.

    Like you, I am open to the concession model, as well as nationalisation for some networks which –as we have shown – works well in some cases.

    People seem to forget that the most popular railway in Britain is nationalised.
    Yes, but your evidence they run a 'good' service is... the Daily Mirror.

    I find that slightly odd: if you know how the franchising system currently works, I'd have thought you'd have been a little less stern in your nationalised=good, privatised=bad comments.

    The most popular railway in Britain is nationalise and losing £1 billion a year, and passenger numbers are going down. See, it depends on the metric you choose!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.

    A big part of the reason for that is the viral furore on social media.

    Many brand consultants will now advise firms to do this, and encourage controversy, because it generates headlines and keeps them in the news for longer, thus driving up brand awareness and sales on both sides. I think Greggs was even prepared in advance to troll Piers Morgan about it.

    I think it’s dangerous in the long term but, for now, this is becoming a pretty mainstream tactic.
    It backfired for Gillette. You need to know your customer base. Trying to be "woke" is no good if that offends the people who are buying your product.
    Have you got any evidence that it backfired?

    People said the Nike campaign backfired –– until the sales figures came out.
    As you say, we shall have to wait until we see sales figures.

    But, here is a survey from YouGov. Certainly, the ads increased awareness of the brand, but reactions were negative, not positive.

    Yet it doesn't matter that most reactions were negative. That is the whole point.
    That's what Gerald Ratner thought.

    Not all publicity is good publicity.
  • felix said:

    Justin 124 will breezily explain it all away....
    Who thought we'd live long enough to see the Tories 7 or 8% ahead of Labour in Scotland?
    Is nobody here seeing the SNP 10% (list) and 14% (constituency) ahead of the Tories? Labour and the Tories are fighting over second place. And the Tories are only winning by mopping up the unionist vote from Labour and the LibDems. Scotland is a different place electorally and may soon be a different nation.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Tbf it's already on a different planet.
  • Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ed Davey (attacking Boris, but that's by the by):

    Instead of reducing crime, expanding Stop and Search will only increase discrimination and undermine the community relations police officers need to prevent knife crime.

    We know what is needed to tackle this knife crime epidemic: more police, more youth services and a proper public health approach.


    So we need to hire more police, but not allow them to do anything.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/mar/07/hammond-tells-tories-to-back-mays-deal-or-risk-softer-brexit--politics-live

    13:43

    A statement of the obvious. If extra police can't actually stop people who are carrying knives, what purpose would they be serving?
    They could copy the highly effective Glasgow approach:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-45572691
    IIRC Many years ago in Glasgow there was a spate of knife crimes - when the 1st one was convicted the Judge sentenced them to 5 years (when 5 years meant 5 years, not 2 1/2 less time off for good behaviour). That sent quite a clear message.
  • felix said:

    Justin 124 will breezily explain it all away....
    Who thought we'd live long enough to see the Tories 7 or 8% ahead of Labour in Scotland?
    Is nobody here seeing the SNP 10% (list) and 14% (constituency) ahead of the Tories? Labour and the Tories are fighting over second place. And the Tories are only winning by mopping up the unionist vote from Labour and the LibDems. Scotland is a different place electorally and may soon be a different nation.
    "Lesser Europe"?
  • felix said:

    Justin 124 will breezily explain it all away....
    Who thought we'd live long enough to see the Tories 7 or 8% ahead of Labour in Scotland?
    Is nobody here seeing the SNP 10% (list) and 14% (constituency) ahead of the Tories? Labour and the Tories are fighting over second place. And the Tories are only winning by mopping up the unionist vote from Labour and the LibDems. Scotland is a different place electorally and may soon be a different nation.
    Results of 2017 election

    SNP 37
    CON 29
    LAB 27

    Major change is support for the also-rans *Green/ UKIP/ LibDems" apparantly eating into Lab Vote.
This discussion has been closed.