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  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I am afraid I disagree entirely with this header. If the Democrats want to beat Trump they have to win white blue collar voters in the rustbelt and swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    All the polling shows Biden is by far the best chance for them to do that followed to a lesser extent by Sanders. If they go with another elitist coastal liberal like Warren or Harris the Democrats will have learnt nothing from Hilary's defeat in 2016 when her winning huge majorities amongst college educated women and in the coastal states like New York and California did nothing to help her win the key Midwest states and they will likely lose the Electoral College again

    Sanders is persona non grata with the establishment/money behind the Democrats which is why they bought it for hills in 2016. Biden will be dogged by insinuation.
    Trump will be re elected then,
    That is certain imo
    The Dems best chance is for Trump to agree not to stand in return for parking any investigation.

    When Mueller comes up blank/only prosecutes a few process crimes, the continuing investigations are going to start looking decidedly iffy. And don't forget Trump still has to declassify details of the FISA requests to spy on him during the election which appear to be the basis of Mueller - the document paid for by Hillarys campaign.
    Now I could be wrong, but I expect things to look very different by the end of this year, investigations can be conducted both ways
    You surely mean 'If' rather than 'When'.
    Mueller has been rather good at his job so far and the investigation has been remarkably leak-proof.
    Unless there isn't actually anything incriminating on Trump to leak....

    (Not saying that's the case. Just that it is possible. It certainly helps terrify witnesses if they THINK tha Mueller has dirt on the President that will drag them down too - unless they plea bargain.)
    Or to go totally down the rabbit hole that there is collusion but it ain't trump
    All things are deliciously possible in this weird world
  • I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    TOPPING said:



    That is a fair point. I must say I don't know Stace's oeuvre so I can't comment but yes I do remember clips during Strictly of her prancing off with a camera in combats.

    But his broader point, ie Comic Relief is deeply problematic, is I believe valid.

    Why is a night of entertainment (at no cost to the charity - it's paid for by the BBC) to raise money for a charity with a very low cost base, deeply problematic?

    Comic Relief really doesn't have the issues Oxfam and other relief agencies seem to have...
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Andrew said:


    The fusion GPS/Steele dossier - which is confirmed to be conducted on behalf of fusions clients by Podesta etc

    It was - but before Trump became the candidate it was funded by conservatives.

    That dossier has also proven to be very accurate.

    It has not been proven to be very accurate, much of it is still unproven and debated, some details in it have proven to be accurate
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    There might be a broader point in there about Comic Relief, but his parents are Guyanese and he was born in the UK and went to Oxbridge. He thinks he can speak on behalf of poor Africans but just comes across as unhelpful and somewhat racist. If an important African figure made similar points I suspect they would find a more receptive audience.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Andrew said:


    The fusion GPS/Steele dossier - which is confirmed to be conducted on behalf of fusions clients by Podesta etc

    It was - but before Trump became the candidate it was funded by conservatives.

    That dossier has also proven to be very accurate.

    The DNC emails proved to be very accurate too.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388
    eek said:

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
    The other pro-Remain parties would have to be polling very low single figures, for TIG to win 45%.
  • Mr. Eek, not sure I'd make a guess that high, but I do think they'd stand a chance of topping the poll, as UKIP did.

    Mr. Brom, I recall Lammy criticising the judge on the Grenfell Inquiry on the basis of his whiteness.
  • Newport West prices, have at them...

    Labour 1/7
    Conservatives 9/2
    Any Independent 16/1
    UKIP 33/1
    Plaid Cymru 50/1
    The Brexit Party 100/1
    Green 200/1
    Liberal Democrats 200/1


    https://www.bet365.com/#/AC/B5/C20633862/D1/E40799080/F2/
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited February 2019
    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
    The other pro-Remain parties would have to be polling very low single figures, for TIG to win 45%.
    What over pro-Remain parties? For most voters the only option would be the Lib Dems and with no chances of winning a seat I suspect even their usual voters will want to make an obvious stand. Granted things would be different in Scotland as the SNP are a remain party..
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited February 2019
    Brom said:

    There might be a broader point in there about Comic Relief, but his parents are Guyanese and he was born in the UK and went to Oxbridge. He thinks he can speak on behalf of poor Africans but just comes across as unhelpful and somewhat racist. If an important African figure made similar points I suspect they would find a more receptive audience.

    Maybe but plenty of white people have made similar points, Paul Collier for example, whose notable book (The Bottom Billion) castigates the west for imposing solutions on Africa and then goes on to...impose solutions on (or make suggestions for) Africa.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
    The other pro-Remain parties would have to be polling very low single figures, for TIG to win 45%.
    I don't like to state future events will or will not happen but that seems very unlikely to me.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:



    That is a fair point. I must say I don't know Stace's oeuvre so I can't comment but yes I do remember clips during Strictly of her prancing off with a camera in combats.

    But his broader point, ie Comic Relief is deeply problematic, is I believe valid.

    Why is a night of entertainment (at no cost to the charity - it's paid for by the BBC) to raise money for a charity with a very low cost base, deeply problematic?

    Comic Relief really doesn't have the issues Oxfam and other relief agencies seem to have...
    Same question to you - would you pay off Al Shabab in guns and supplies in order to feed IDPs in the refugee camp they had control over?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    eek said:

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
    The other pro-Remain parties would have to be polling very low single figures, for TIG to win 45%.
    What over pro-Remain parties? For most voters the only option would be the Lib Dems and with no chances of winning a seat I suspect even their usual voters will want to make an obvious stand. Granted things would be different in Scotland as the SNP are a remain party..
    Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens and Plaid Cymru.
  • eek said:

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
    Why on earth would the TIGs get 45% of the vote as the pro-EU party when the Lib Dems (in their guise as the SDP/Liberals) as the default EU party never got above 18.5%?

    If it did come to EU elections I would be amazed to see the TIGs get more than 15%
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited February 2019
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:



    That is a fair point. I must say I don't know Stace's oeuvre so I can't comment but yes I do remember clips during Strictly of her prancing off with a camera in combats.

    But his broader point, ie Comic Relief is deeply problematic, is I believe valid.

    Why is a night of entertainment (at no cost to the charity - it's paid for by the BBC) to raise money for a charity with a very low cost base, deeply problematic?

    Comic Relief really doesn't have the issues Oxfam and other relief agencies seem to have...
    Same question to you - would you pay off Al Shabab in guns and supplies in order to feed IDPs in the refugee camp they had control over?
    Not feeding people in the camp results in people dying now.
    Giving guns to people may result in deaths later (but it's possible it may not).

    That's a moral / ethical question with no easy answer and the fact you think there is an easy answer probably says more about you than it does about Comic Relief...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Scott_P said:
    And the idea stolen from one of the people on Politics Live today.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited February 2019
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:



    That is a fair point. I must say I don't know Stace's oeuvre so I can't comment but yes I do remember clips during Strictly of her prancing off with a camera in combats.

    But his broader point, ie Comic Relief is deeply problematic, is I believe valid.

    Why is a night of entertainment (at no cost to the charity - it's paid for by the BBC) to raise money for a charity with a very low cost base, deeply problematic?

    Comic Relief really doesn't have the issues Oxfam and other relief agencies seem to have...
    Same question to you - would you pay off Al Shabab in guns and supplies in order to feed IDPs in the refugee camp they had control over?
    Not feeding people in the camp results in people dying now.
    Giving guns to people may result in deaths later.

    That's a moral / ethical question with no easy answer and the fact you think there is an easy answer probably says more about you than it does about Comic Relief...
    D'oh!!! It is precisely because there is no easy answer that I believe Comic Relief is flawed! Did I say what I thought the answer was?

    What if the proceeds of Comic Relief went to Al Shabab, thereby saving the lives of some IDPs. Is that what Stacey Dooley is asking for?

    Edit: I need a basic level of intelligence from people if I'm going to debate with them on PB. You so far have failed that test.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:



    That is a fair point. I must say I don't know Stace's oeuvre so I can't comment but yes I do remember clips during Strictly of her prancing off with a camera in combats.

    But his broader point, ie Comic Relief is deeply problematic, is I believe valid.

    Why is a night of entertainment (at no cost to the charity - it's paid for by the BBC) to raise money for a charity with a very low cost base, deeply problematic?

    Comic Relief really doesn't have the issues Oxfam and other relief agencies seem to have...
    A couple of decades ago I was university RAG committee treasurer. We decided that, as we had done before, we should only work with mostly smaller UK charities, and shouldn't send any money overseas.

    The one exception we made was for the Comic Relief Appeal. They were very open with their finances and had a fraction of the admin costs of the likes of Oxfam or World Vision. The BBC telethon provided a huge amount of free fundraising publicity, and most of the 'celebrity' visitors to Africa had paid their own way there. They had a tiny permanent staff in the UK, outside the BBC team.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited February 2019
    As others have suggested here before, more evidence that Texas could be a real battleground next time round:

    https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1101125771295408128
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    There might be a broader point in there about Comic Relief, but his parents are Guyanese and he was born in the UK and went to Oxbridge. He thinks he can speak on behalf of poor Africans but just comes across as unhelpful and somewhat racist. If an important African figure made similar points I suspect they would find a more receptive audience.

    Maybe but plenty of white people have made similar points, Paul Collier for example, whose notable book (The Bottom Billion) castigates the west for imposing solutions on Africa and then goes on to...impose solutions on (or make suggestions for) Africa.
    So he uses the word west and not white ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388
    eek said:

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    I agree the reds and blues would do poorly in theoretical EU elections, not only because it's a risk-free way of hitting them and they're both incompetent, but also because the current political atmosphere is quite polarising. Even with halfway decent front benches, I think ardently pro- and anti-EU parties would punch above their weight.

    As I stated on Monday - I would expect the TIGs to get 45%+ of the votes - as the default pro EU party and Farage's party to share the rest with Labour and the Tories. Even with a referendum scheduled for the autumn it would be a proxy referendum especially on the remain side..
    The other pro-Remain parties would have to be polling very low single figures, for TIG to win 45%.
    What over pro-Remain parties? For most voters the only option would be the Lib Dems and with no chances of winning a seat I suspect even their usual voters will want to make an obvious stand. Granted things would be different in Scotland as the SNP are a remain party..
    Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, Plaid, Polish Pride.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    There might be a broader point in there about Comic Relief, but his parents are Guyanese and he was born in the UK and went to Oxbridge. He thinks he can speak on behalf of poor Africans but just comes across as unhelpful and somewhat racist. If an important African figure made similar points I suspect they would find a more receptive audience.

    Maybe but plenty of white people have made similar points, Paul Collier for example, whose notable book (The Bottom Billion) castigates the west for imposing solutions on Africa and then goes on to...impose solutions on (or make suggestions for) Africa.
    So he uses the word west and not white ?
    yep I get that but it is shorthand. I can live with it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited February 2019
    Andrew said:

    As others have suggested here before, more evidence that Texas could be a real battleground next time round:

    https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1101125771295408128

    If Texas is very close, then its an absolute landslide for the Dems.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited February 2019
    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
  • Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    There's something that almost all this analysis misses:

    It is highly likely the Democrats will end up with a brokered convention.

    Why?

    Three reasons:

    1. It's a very large field,
    2. The Dem's primaries are practically all proportionate, with very few caucuses.
    3. California and Texas - the largest two states in the US - are both on Super Tuesday.

    This means that there will be a lot of candidates who have significant numbers of delegates, even though they won't have a chance of winning. If Beto runs, he's likely to do very well in Texas. And I have little doubt Kamala Harris will do well in California. Even if these guys flop in every other state, they will have substantial delegate counts on March 3rd.

    This has a number of consequences. Firstly, if you're offered better than evens on a brokered convention, go for it. Secondly, ask yourself who is a benefit of "transfers". Hint: it's not Sanders. The establishment Democrats who would benefit would probably be Biden (former VP) and/or one of the female Senators (Harris/Kloboucher/Gillibrand).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388
    Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    As others have suggested here before, more evidence that Texas could be a real battleground next time round:

    https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1101125771295408128

    If Texas is very close, then its an absolute landslide for the Dems.
    And, Texas is close if Trump retains current levels of popularity. If his popularity were to rise. (or his Democratic opponent were to make him look good by comparison) then Texas will not be close.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
  • Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    It reads very reasonably until he talks about reclaiming our freedom, which is an absurd view of our voluntary membership of a Union of European nations.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited February 2019
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    A Telegraph piece seems to suggest Zenawi's then rebels benefitted from Live Aid. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/ethiopia/7359324/Millions-of-Ethiopian-famine-aid-used-to-buy-weapons.html

    Of course its possible both sides were able to arm up from the $$..
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    A Telegraph piece seems to suggest Zenawi's then rebels benefitted from Live Aid. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/ethiopia/7359324/Millions-of-Ethiopian-famine-aid-used-to-buy-weapons.html

    Of course its possible both sides were able to arm up from the $$..
    I have no doubt - but don't tell Sir Bob that.

    (or @eek!)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited February 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Being prepared to walk away/walking away is a big part of The Art Of The Deal?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
  • The final humiliation? haha! What a plonker. The nutjobs have ensured we will be humiliated again and again for years to come
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited February 2019

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    The SLR was before my time, grandad. Fine. Stop talking to me. Bliss. The fewer dolts whom I have to waste time on the better.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Being prepared to walk away/walking away is a big part of The Art Of The Deal?
    No shit...the man's a genius. No other business person has ever worked that one out surely?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    As others have suggested here before, more evidence that Texas could be a real battleground next time round:

    https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1101125771295408128

    If Texas is very close, then its an absolute landslide for the Dems.
    48-41 is a pretty comfortable Republican win in the Electoral College whereas 46-45 would point to a Dem win nationally. Therein lies the problem
  • Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    It reads very reasonably until he talks about reclaiming our freedom, which is an absurd view of our voluntary membership of a Union of European nations.
    Well, that bit's overblown. But the important message is that he's still prepared to vote for the WA.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Being prepared to walk away/walking away is a big part of The Art Of The Deal?
    No shit...the man's a genius. No other business person has ever worked that one out surely?
    I think it was more of a comment on the supposed message of the cartoon.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    It reads very reasonably until he talks about reclaiming our freedom, which is an absurd view of our voluntary membership of a Union of European nations.
    Well, that bit's overblown. But the important message is that he's still prepared to vote for the WA.
    Indeed. Slowly but surely with much kicking and screaming along the way is this starting to move in Theresa's direction? ;)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    These are carefully stage managed shots across the bows of the PM by the ERG. And why not - it worked for the Ruddy Remainers.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited February 2019
    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Being prepared to walk away/walking away is a big part of The Art Of The Deal?
    No shit...the man's a genius. No other business person has ever worked that one out surely?
    I think it was more of a comment on the supposed message of the cartoon.
    Which I think Nigel knew...

    But he just wanted to have a rant about something which is fine! :D
  • TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    What an unpleasant post. These idiots that claim to be patriotic because they voted for Putin's Brexit, and then slagging people off who have actually worn the Queen's uniform! Wanker doesn't sum it up sufficiently.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    OK it's all getting too nasty for me in here. Time to check out for now. :D
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    edited February 2019

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    He (Dura Ace) is also regularly wrong on those things he claims to be an authority on. My good friend and neighbour who just retired as a squadron leader a couple of months ago regularly comes in to sit and laugh over a cuppa at some of the claims Dura Ace makes.
  • TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    What an unpleasant post. These idiots that claim to be patriotic because they voted for Putin's Brexit, and then slagging people off who have actually worn the Queen's uniform! Wanker doesn't sum it up sufficiently.
    And they'll be criticising Corbyn for not wearing a large enough poppy next October.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    Is he ex military? It's a claim often made on internet forums.
  • To counter the grumpy atmosphere, here's a splendid video about Hannibal to enjoy:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua17eOTKYY
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
    Showing your complete lack of understanding again. You are reasonably articulate for the average person that supports UKIP/EDL/BNP, but the bar isn't that high. The sovereignty was pooled in the same way we do with NATO and UN ... the fact that we are at liberty to pull out demonstrates we (and the other 27) are sovereign...oh why am I bothering, you are so dumb it is really not worth it. Go and do some goosestepping and maybe try and support another part of Putin's foreign policy.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    GIN1138 said:

    OK it's all getting too nasty for me in here. Time to check out for now. :D

    Get back here you filthy coward! :p
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    Is he ex military? It's a claim often made on internet forums.
    And I won gold in the 110m hurdles at the Beijing Olympics.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    TOPPING said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    Is he ex military? It's a claim often made on internet forums.
    And I won gold in the 110m hurdles at the Beijing Olympics.
    And I thought you were Lord Lucan....
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
    Showing your complete lack of understanding again. You are reasonably articulate for the average person that supports UKIP/EDL/BNP, but the bar isn't that high. The sovereignty was pooled in the same way we do with NATO and UN ... the fact that we are at liberty to pull out demonstrates we (and the other 27) are sovereign...oh why am I bothering, you are so dumb it is really not worth it. Go and do some goosestepping and maybe try and support another part of Putin's foreign policy.
    You cannot pool sovereignty. Linguistically it is an oxymoron. Unlike you who are just a plain old fashioned moron.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
    Showing your complete lack of understanding again. You are reasonably articulate for the average person that supports UKIP/EDL/BNP, but the bar isn't that high. The sovereignty was pooled in the same way we do with NATO and UN ... the fact that we are at liberty to pull out demonstrates we (and the other 27) are sovereign...oh why am I bothering, you are so dumb it is really not worth it. Go and do some goosestepping and maybe try and support another part of Putin's foreign policy.
    It'll be a shock to Tyndall when North Korea eventually joins the international community and thereby ceases to be perhaps the last remaining "sovereign" country.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    He (Dura Ace) is also regularly wrong on those things he claims to be an authority on. My good friend and neighbour who just retired as a squadron leader a couple of months ago regularly comes in to sit and laugh over a cuppa at some of the claims Dura Ace makes.
    What larks you and your social group get up to.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    Is he ex military? It's a claim often made on internet forums.
    And I won gold in the 110m hurdles at the Beijing Olympics.
    And I thought you were Lord Lucan....
    That was just a very unfortunate accident. I was trying to put up a picture.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
    The UK remains a sovereign nation. All sovereign nations exist with some interference from outside entities. I look upon our relationship with the EU as a form of contract that we have (voluntarily) entered into for mutual benefit.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Dadge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
    The UK remains a sovereign nation. All sovereign nations exist with some interference from outside entities. I look upon our relationship with the EU as a form of contract that we have (voluntarily) entered into for mutual benefit.
    I think you'll need crayons and a Peppa Pig book for Richard.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Likely the first of many, although to be honest the payroll has held together pretty well so far.
    To be fair his letter and his stated reasons for resigning are very reasonable.
    Absolutely. It’s human nature that as things come to the crunch, there will be some ministers who profoundly disagree with the course being taken. While the PM and the whips have done a good job of being ambiguous enough to keep people mostly happy so far, it’s inevitable a few will choose to resign - probably on both sides of the Brexit debate
    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.
    +1. I'm bored having to explain that we do have sovereignty, or how the fuck did we manage to have an in/out referendum and go to war in Iraq etc. without Brussels agreeing? The sovereignty argument is one of the biggest lies Leave advocates perpetrated on a gullible public
    That is probably because you are too dumb to understand what the word means. Which I suspect derives from you not actually caring.

    "The power that a country has to govern itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies"

    Just because we are able to do the things you mention does not mean we are sovereign since there are many other areas where we have given up those powers to the EU.
    Showing your complete lack of understanding again. You are reasonably articulate for the average person that supports UKIP/EDL/BNP, but the bar isn't that high. The sovereignty was pooled in the same way we do with NATO and UN ... the fact that we are at liberty to pull out demonstrates we (and the other 27) are sovereign...oh why am I bothering, you are so dumb it is really not worth it. Go and do some goosestepping and maybe try and support another part of Putin's foreign policy.
    It'll be a shock to Tyndall when North Korea eventually joins the international community and thereby ceases to be perhaps the last remaining "sovereign" country.
    Tyndall favours a weird kind of utopian internationalism that relies on every country eliminating barriers between each other, but with absolutely no political institutions to agree any common rules.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388
    O/T I saw this advertised in the Spectator, and it looks fascinating.

    I think I'll sign up for this.

    https://www.buckingham.ac.uk/humanities/ma/militaryhistory

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    TOPPING said:



    tl;dr them all? If aid worked, why was poverty not eradicated decades ago?
    if all it took to eradicate malaria in sub-Saharan Africa was mosquito nets and why hasn't malaria been eradicated there?

    As they say, aid is a way of channelling money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.

    Lots of foreign aid projects don't work, but some do. Foreign aid eradicated smallpox. No way the health systems of Bangladesh, Nigeria Somali etc. could have done that on their own.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    Afternoon all :)

    Whatever the merits or otherwise of George Eustace's resignation, the fact remains the point is at last coming when, to use the colloquialism, people have to sh1t or get off the pot.

    First up is the vote that really matters, the WA. The sole question is whether enough Conservatives will support to carry it (with some help from other parties). The margin of defeat was large last time and unless Geoffrey Cox (so beloved of this parish) can come up with a form of words which will please both everybody and nobody at the same time, I just don't see from where May will get the numbers.

    The Wednesday vote is meaningless - Parliament can reject No Deal every day from now until March 29th, it carries no weight.

    Then we have the second critical vote IF the WA fails - the question of an extension to A50. Will the Conservative Party really agree to a two-year extension to A50? 3 months is one thing - 24 is eight times as much (good old O Level Maths).

    There will be those who argue extension is the first step to capitulation but Labour has huge issues if it votes against this as well. It's a thing nobody wants but nobody can be seen not to want it (pardon the double negative). I just wonder if in the chaos of voting down the WA, the mood to go ahead and get it over with will prevail and we will be on the path to No Deal.

    If it all fails and May is forced to recognise No Deal, her Cabinet will be shattered.

    The one piece in the puzzle we don't have is what length of extension the EU will accept.
  • Everyone will remember where they were when they first heard that George Eustace had resigned.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,045
    Only one by-election today - Con defence in Stroud
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    Actually, I don't know why anybody bothers the fuck talking to you. Along with Dura Ace, you are the most certain, intemperate, squaddy-mouthed "contributors" on here. Both ex-military, it's as though you have a problem with people not taking orders.

    Your orders.

    Hint. You're on Civvy Street. The days of people giving a damn about you ended when you stopped having an SLR to back up your "arguments".....
    What an unpleasant post. These idiots that claim to be patriotic because they voted for Putin's Brexit, and then slagging people off who have actually worn the Queen's uniform! Wanker doesn't sum it up sufficiently.
    What a unpleasant post Nigel,keep telling you and self awareness pal.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Everyone will remember where they were when they first heard that George Eustace had resigned.

    Who?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    I can understand someone resigning over a 24 month extension. Resigning over a three month one, which will still almost certainly be required even if the WA passes, seems silly.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    TOPPING said:
    Africa would probably be better off today if it hadn't received any aid money over the last 60 years.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388
    AndyJS said:

    TOPPING said:
    Africa would probably be better off today if it hadn't received any aid money over the last 60 years.
    I think that aid is good for dealing with sudden emergencies, but it's no substitute for capitalism and honest government.
  • Scott_P said:

    Everyone will remember where they were when they first heard that George Eustace had resigned.

    Who?
    Eustace is quite well liked in the rural communities, because unlike his predecessors, he does appear to actually *like* the countryside.

    (Not defending his stance on Brexit, but he is pretty consistent)
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    As others have suggested here before, more evidence that Texas could be a real battleground next time round:

    https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/1101125771295408128

    If Texas is very close, then its an absolute landslide for the Dems.
    Texas is gradually turning purple. CO and NM are now pretty reliably blue, AZ is heading there, TX is following.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    AndyJS said:

    TOPPING said:
    Africa would probably be better off today if it hadn't received any aid money over the last 60 years.
    Africa might. Lots of Africans might not.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    Interesting quotes from a Cobynite prospective parliamentary candidate in this article in support of a second referendum.

    https://twitter.com/redditchrachel/status/1101133564765224960
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited February 2019
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:
    Live Aid isn't Comic Relief. Equally 1985 is not 2019....

    On your final point in your previous comment you seem unable to recognise who is getting facts confused, who is claiming one charity (Live Aid) is actually another (Comic Relief) and posts without checking / suitable evidence to back up their facts.

    Equally I don't think I'm the first person to call you out on those issues.
    What are you talking about? Jeez. Did people know in 1985 that they were supporting Mengistu? Do you know who Comic Relief is actually supporting when they are sending money to Africa? Does Stacey Dooley?

    There are several issues here - first, the "white man's burden" issue of white people (yes @Tykejohnno they have historically been white), or the West, imposing a solution and "saving" Africa because of course the Africans are wholly unable to do so themselves, right? The second issue is that of the one above. We don't know where the money is going to and if, say, there is an African country that "needs reform" then sending money to them to alleviate any domestic suffering is removing the onus on that government to do so (cf. the resource curse).

    Actually why the fuck am I bothering talking to you as you fundamentally misunderstand the issues under discussion.
    A Telegraph piece seems to suggest Zenawi's then rebels benefitted from Live Aid. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/ethiopia/7359324/Millions-of-Ethiopian-famine-aid-used-to-buy-weapons.html

    Of course its possible both sides were able to arm up from the $$..
    I have no doubt - but don't tell Sir Bob that.

    (or @eek!)
    And I will repeat my comments from below -
    1) Live Aid != Comic Relief.
    2) 1985 is very different from 2019 - charities have learnt a lot in 35 years.

    You clearly see everything as black and white in a world that, at a minimum has various shades of grey, and often has other colours and issues to deal with at the same time.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited February 2019
    stodge said:

    The one piece in the puzzle we don't have is what length of extension the EU will accept.

    From what has been said about this there seem to be two extensions on offer from the EU. Up to three months to tidy up legislative details if the Deal is passed by the Commons. Or ~2 years to start negotiating the future trade deal in detail, as a way to bypass the backstop.

    Theresa May has said that she will ask for a couple of months of time-wasting.

    There's a view expressed that the EU will agree to any extension in preference to No Deal, but I think that would be very much a last resort.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    rkrkrk said:

    TOPPING said:



    tl;dr them all? If aid worked, why was poverty not eradicated decades ago?
    if all it took to eradicate malaria in sub-Saharan Africa was mosquito nets and why hasn't malaria been eradicated there?

    As they say, aid is a way of channelling money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.

    Lots of foreign aid projects don't work, but some do. Foreign aid eradicated smallpox. No way the health systems of Bangladesh, Nigeria Somali etc. could have done that on their own.
    I appreciate that. And in such instances (the MDGs and the SDGs for example) "big pushes" as Jeffrey Sachs would say, can have an effect (although excluding India and China the effects are not as clear as they might be).

    But regardless, the involvement of those countries' governments is vital. More often than not the aid agencies function outside the remit of governments which in turn represents a dilemma because the government then lacks agency and becomes subordinate to or must act in parallel to the external agencies/non-state actors.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    slade said:

    Only one by-election today - Con defence in Stroud

    Looks safe Tory, and I saw on another forum a labour canvasser saying that TIG had made door knocking very difficult for Labour. Doubt there'll be any surprise tonight.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106


    Anyone who thinks that Britain is not already free can safely be consigned to the category of nutjob.

    It is all about perceptions and nuance.

    Is the UK 'free'? Of course it is if you frame the argument in an absolute context.

    'Free' in relation to the dynamics of its membership of the EU however may elicit a somewhat different answer for many.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    AndyJS said:

    TOPPING said:
    Africa would probably be better off today if it hadn't received any aid money over the last 60 years.
    and, let me guess, Brexit is going to turn out wonderfully? Such knowledge and foresight and no evidence.
  • rcs1000 said:

    I can understand someone resigning over a 24 month extension. Resigning over a three month one, which will still almost certainly be required even if the WA passes, seems silly.

    As silly as being sacked for supporting government policy?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    TOPPING said:
    Africa would probably be better off today if it hadn't received any aid money over the last 60 years.
    I think that aid is good for dealing with sudden emergencies, but it's no substitute for capitalism and honest government.
    David Dollar has done a lot of work about that last. This is a seminal paper:

    https://researchgate.net/publication/4863536_The_Increasing_Selectivity_of_Foreign_Aid_1984-2003
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    rcs1000 said:

    I can understand someone resigning over a 24 month extension. Resigning over a three month one, which will still almost certainly be required even if the WA passes, seems silly.

    He knows that it's not just going to be a three month extension.
This discussion has been closed.