Precisely. Which is why, with regret, I fundamentally oppose this deal.
I still think that, even with the backstop in place, it is a deal worth doing. I would of course prefer the backstop not to be there but it is a fact and one we have to work with. The idea of saying that because we might be bound to a few parts of the EU for a while, we would be better off staying in and being bound to all of it is just daft.
It is like those who used to say that because we would have to pay the equivalent of a year or two's payments to the EU we should instead stay in and keep paying year in, year out for ever more. It is just stupid reasoning.
It's the words for a while I have a problem with. If it was time limited so for a while then yes I would have no qualms whatsoever. Sign away.
Instead what we are signing up to is an unequal treaty like the Treaty of Nanking that effectively cedes our customs regulations etc to the EU in eternity. Unless or until the EU voluntarily relinquishes control over us.
There are multiple forms of Europe in this continent as the famous Venn Diagram shows but as far as I'm aware in the EU nations have a unilateral exit right. In the EEA I believe nations can exit. In the EFTA nations can exit.
In the backstop we can't. That is to my knowledge unprecedented. It is simply unacceptable.
It was famously said recently we were always sovereign as we could always leave. If we leave but cede in eternity control over certain laws, regulations, customs etc in the backstop then we have fully lost sovereignty over those matters. Not only do we have laws, regulations and customs set elsewhere but we can't exit that without permission.
So instead you would voluntarily choose to remain within the Customs Union and everything else forever? It is a strange logic you display there.
Charles 1,100,000,000 Philip T 10,000,000 Pulpstar 5,000,000 Kle4 3,000,000 Ben P 3
Remember, there are 1.2 billion people in China, and therefore about 300 million households. Use that to guide your guess.
Any more...
In most countries empty housing runs at between 10-15%, so somewhere between 30 and 45 million would be par for the course.
With all the internal migration there may be even more, particularly as Chinese have a high savings rate and like Britons like bricks and mortar as a concrete asset.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
As a basic matter of principle I would not vote in a second referendum and would be urging anyone I could to boycott. I would also continue to campaign to boycott any future elections on the grounds that the politicians have shown themselves undeserving of our trust. Basically voting for them gives them an sheen of legitimacy that they no longer deserve.
That is all admirably principled. I just don't see that it gets you anywhere.
Voting for people who know they can ignore what you want and have been emboldened by the example of the largest vote in British history being ignored gets you nowhere either. All it does is attempt to legitimise a process that is fundamentally broken and illegitimate.
Precisely. Which is why, with regret, I fundamentally oppose this deal.
I still think that, even with the backstop in place, it is a deal worth doing. I would of course prefer the backstop not to be there but it is a fact and one we have to work with. The idea of saying that because we might be bound to a few parts of the EU for a while, we would be better off staying in and being bound to all of it is just daft.
It is like those who used to say that because we would have to pay the equivalent of a year or two's payments to the EU we should instead stay in and keep paying year in, year out for ever more. It is just stupid reasoning.
It's the words for a while I have a problem with. If it was time limited so for a while then yes I would have no qualms whatsoever. Sign away.
Instead what we are signing up to is an unequal treaty like the Treaty of Nanking that effectively cedes our customs regulations etc to the EU in eternity. Unless or until the EU voluntarily relinquishes control over us.
There are multiple forms of Europe in this continent as the famous Venn Diagram shows but as far as I'm aware in the EU nations have a unilateral exit right. In the EEA I believe nations can exit. In the EFTA nations can exit.
In the backstop we can't. That is to my knowledge unprecedented. It is simply unacceptable.
It was famously said recently we were always sovereign as we could always leave. If we leave but cede in eternity control over certain laws, regulations, customs etc in the backstop then we have fully lost sovereignty over those matters. Not only do we have laws, regulations and customs set elsewhere but we can't exit that without permission.
So instead you would voluntarily choose to remain within the Customs Union and everything else forever? It is a strange logic you display there.
If we voluntarily remain we both get a say in the Customs Union (something we lose once we leave and are in the backstop) and we maintain our right to invoke Article 50 to exit it (something we lose one we leave and are in the backstop).
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
It would but would it settle the matter? Or would we be back here in a few years time for EU Referendum 3 this time with a committed Brexiteer in charge?
If instead of a Remain backing Cameron or May we had someone like a UK Alex Salmond we would be in a different scenario.
If the backstop is eternal then the long game to get a proper Brexit could be to revoke now and win again later.
(100% not saying this is a high possibility chance)
We will only get eu ref 3 as a result of a manifesto commitment, which will only come from the Tories. So the question would be which Tory faction comes out of all this on top.
Precisely. Which is why, with regret, I fundamentally oppose this deal.
I still think that, even with the backstop in place, it is a deal worth doing. I would of course prefer the backstop not to be there but it is a fact and one we have to work with. The idea of saying that because we might be bound to a few parts of the EU for a while, we would be better off staying in and being bound to all of it is just daft.
It is like those who used to say that because we would have to pay the equivalent of a year or two's payments to the EU we should instead stay in and keep paying year in, year out for ever more. It is just stupid reasoning.
It's the words for a while I have a problem with. If it was time limited so for a while then yes I would have no qualms whatsoever. Sign away.
Instead what we are signing up to is an unequal treaty like the Treaty of Nanking that effectively cedes our customs regulations etc to the EU in eternity. Unless or until the EU voluntarily relinquishes control over us.
There are multiple forms of Europe in this continent as the famous Venn Diagram shows but as far as I'm aware in the EU nations have a unilateral exit right. In the EEA I believe nations can exit. In the EFTA nations can exit.
In the backstop we can't. That is to my knowledge unprecedented. It is simply unacceptable.
It was famously said recently we were always sovereign as we could always leave. If we leave but cede in eternity control over certain laws, regulations, customs etc in the backstop then we have fully lost sovereignty over those matters. Not only do we have laws, regulations and customs set elsewhere but we can't exit that without permission.
So instead you would voluntarily choose to remain within the Customs Union and everything else forever? It is a strange logic you display there.
If we voluntarily remain we both get a say in the Customs Union (something we lose once we leave and are in the backstop) and we maintain our right to invoke Article 50 to exit it (something we lose one we leave and are in the backstop).
The idea we have any influence over the CU now is a myth. And what is the point of having the right to invoke article 50 if you can never use it. The EU will not change its position on this if they know we will always back down.
He's reached the stage of saying or doing anything to get a headline. Going Lembit Opek I think they call it.
What is this Farage that you are talking about? I vaguely remember someone with that name - but I don't think he exists as any longer.
He's a legendary member of the European Parliament. Hugely committed to seeing himself remain a member of that body, and has done much for the cause of European integration.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
It would but would it settle the matter? Or would we be back here in a few years time for EU Referendum 3 this time with a committed Brexiteer in charge?
If instead of a Remain backing Cameron or May we had someone like a UK Alex Salmond we would be in a different scenario.
If the backstop is eternal then the long game to get a proper Brexit could be to revoke now and win again later.
(100% not saying this is a high possibility chance)
We will only get eu ref 3 as a result of a manifesto commitment, which will only come from the Tories. So the question would be which Tory faction comes out of all this on top.
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
Two thoughts for me are both logical truisms but I feel like I'm in a minority of 1 for believing both, though I suspect most people here would agree with one thought but not the other.
1: No deal is better than a bad deal. 2: No Brexit is better than a bad Brexit.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
It would but would it settle the matter? Or would we be back here in a few years time for EU Referendum 3 this time with a committed Brexiteer in charge?
If instead of a Remain backing Cameron or May we had someone like a UK Alex Salmond we would be in a different scenario.
If the backstop is eternal then the long game to get a proper Brexit could be to revoke now and win again later.
(100% not saying this is a high possibility chance)
We will only get eu ref 3 as a result of a manifesto commitment, which will only come from the Tories. So the question would be which Tory faction comes out of all this on top.
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
It certainly won't survive in any electable form if we crash out in chaos.
In that case get used to the idea that it is dead. Because the only way it now survives is if May's Deal goes through and much as I wish it to happen I genuinely no longer believe it will.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
Nah, a #peoplesvote with either the same or a different outcome would be an affirmation of democracy.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
It would but would it settle the matter? Or would we be back here in a few years time for EU Referendum 3 this time with a committed Brexiteer in charge?
If instead of a Remain backing Cameron or May we had someone like a UK Alex Salmond we would be in a different scenario.
If the backstop is eternal then the long game to get a proper Brexit could be to revoke now and win again later.
(100% not saying this is a high possibility chance)
We will only get eu ref 3 as a result of a manifesto commitment, which will only come from the Tories. So the question would be which Tory faction comes out of all this on top.
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
Nah, a #peoplesvote with either the same or a different outcome would be an affirmation of democracy.
Letting people vote is what Democcracy means.
Bollocks - you want a vote that says remain - then in your eyes it will be over
The country is currently facing national humiliation because people who ought to have known better thought we weren’t a “good fit” for the EU, so forgive me for running short on patience for further nonsense.
De Gaulle, a towering figure in more ways than one, said Non twice. He was right, and the current mess has arisen because Heath wouldn't take no for an answer.
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
It certainly won't survive in any electable form if we crash out in chaos.
In that case get used to the idea that it is dead. Because the only way it now survives is if May's Deal goes through and much as I wish it to happen I genuinely no longer believe it will.
Today's events make it increasingly likely May's Deal will pass given the likely alternative of indefinite extension of Art 50 may be too much for the ERG to bear and Labour MPs from Leave seats will not accept EUref2.
However even No Deal would not fatally damage the Tories, the vast majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain. The only way the Tories would be dead is to revoke in which case they may be overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party/UKIP and eventually forced to merge with the latter to get back to power (as happened to Canada's Progressive Conservative Party when they were overtaken by the populist rightwing Reform Party at the 1993 election and eventually forced to merge with the Alliance, Reform's successor, in 2004 to form the Conservative Party of Canada which was able to form a minority government after the 2006 election)
The idea we have any influence over the CU now is a myth. And what is the point of having the right to invoke article 50 if you can never use it. The EU will not change its position on this if they know we will always back down.
But we are only backing down now because Parliament has a majority of Remain backing MPs including the PM.
If Parliament had a Leave backing majority including PM then this would be a whole different ballgame.
And no Remainer would ever call another referendum. It would take a Leaver taking over and winning a vote to trigger the next invocation which with hindsight is how it should have triggered the first.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
It would but would it settle the matter? Or would we be back here in a few years time for EU Referendum 3 this time with a committed Brexiteer in charge?
If instead of a Remain backing Cameron or May we had someone like a UK Alex Salmond we would be in a different scenario.
If the backstop is eternal then the long game to get a proper Brexit could be to revoke now and win again later.
(100% not saying this is a high possibility chance)
We will only get eu ref 3 as a resultn top.
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
Nah, a #peoplesvote with either the same or a different outcome would be an affirmation of democracy.
Letting people vote is what Democcracy means.
I'm sure you'll be just as eager for a #bestofthree referendum afterwards rather than leaving it lie at Remain then.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
Nah, a #peoplesvote with either the same or a different outcome would be an affirmation of democracy.
Letting people vote is what Democcracy means.
Letting people vote and then ignoring what they vote for is not democracy. It is an exercise in very bad public relations. A second referendum before the first has been enacted will be the Ratner moment for democracy in Britain.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
Nah, a #peoplesvote with either the same or a different outcome would be an affirmation of democracy.
Letting people vote is what Democcracy means.
I'm sure you'll be just as eager for a #bestofthree referendum afterwards rather than leaving it lie at Remain then.
Sure, if that is what our democratic representatives in our democratic parliament decide.
Who could have predicted a few years ago that the Bicester Village shopping experience would be the second most popular UK tourist attraction for Chinese tourists?
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
So what?
The Tories aren't the original Tory party either. That ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. Doesn't stop them being called Tories either.
Charles 1,100,000,000 Philip T 10,000,000 Pulpstar 5,000,000 Kle4 3,000,000 Ben P 3
Remember, there are 1.2 billion people in China, and therefore about 300 million households. Use that to guide your guess.
Any more...
65,000,000
I salute you.
That is indeed the correct answer.
Assuming you didn't Google it, then please PM me your address, and I shall send across SeanT's next magnum opus.
Wow. I didn't Google it, honest. Just thought it would be amusing if there was one spare for every Brit. As everyone seems so unhappy here, thought we could just all up sticks and start again over there!
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Tonights consisted on ITV of a NI sheep farmer who voted Leave and now is really worried about no deal and selling his lamb to the EU!, and an angry bloke with no teeth and limited vocabulary who could hardly string two words together on Newsnight who gave the stock answer “ we voted out , just want out” from Hastings .
Charles 1,100,000,000 Philip T 10,000,000 Pulpstar 5,000,000 Kle4 3,000,000 Ben P 3
Remember, there are 1.2 billion people in China, and therefore about 300 million households. Use that to guide your guess.
Any more...
65,000,000
I salute you.
That is indeed the correct answer.
Assuming you didn't Google it, then please PM me your address, and I shall send across SeanT's next magnum opus.
Wow. I didn't Google it, honest. Just thought it would be amusing if there was one spare for every Brit. As everyone seems so unhappy here, thought we could just all up sticks and start again over there!
I am amused by the idea that you think the Tory party will survive this in any recognisable form if we revoke.
It certainly won't survive in any electable form if we crash out in chaos.
Then May should have done a better job shouldn't she
What a party
Give us a vote with everything stacked in your favour
then lose it
By remainers accounts the vote that was offered was essentially for economic disaster in any event - so why risk it?
You don't deserve power
In whose favour?
May is a Remainer.
While which way people voted in the referendum is hardly irrelevant, it is also not the absolute answer for everything they have ever done thereafter. One day I hope we can all realise that.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
This is a good example, because it was Mulroney’s handling of Quebec and the fallout from the Quebec referendum that destroyed the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
Personally I am quite happy for Brexiteers to boycott the #peoplesvote.
Be careful what you wish for. If people feel that democracy no longer serves any purpose they look for alternatives. I certainly would not wish that on this country.
turnout may well be lower because people are bored by Brexit, but enough will vote to keep democracy functioning.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
If you show people that democracy counts for nothing then why should it survive? That is the lesson you teach by overturning the result of the referendum and that is the lesson that will be shouted from the rooftops.
Bad-tempered elderly people were always going to need something to do with their time, standing on the roof shouting something incoherent about democracy sounds better than some of the alternatives. We should get some railings put up there so they don't fall off.
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Leavers need better representation from TV producers, I think you meant to say....
Who could have predicted a few years ago that the Bicester Village shopping experience would be the second most popular UK tourist attraction for Chinese tourists?
I go every now and then, and it is full of the overpriced designer tat that the Chinese seem to love. To be fair on Chinese students, they wear it well. The girls in particular are very well turned out, even the ones who sit near me in the East Stand at Leicester City.
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
So what?
The Tories aren't the original Tory party either. That ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. Doesn't stop them being called Tories either.
To a large extent they are e.g. when the Peelites split off from the Tories they formed the Liberals with the Radicals and the Whigs
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Tonights consisted on ITV of a NI sheep farmer who voted Leave and now is really worried about no deal and selling his lamb to the EU!, and an angry bloke with no teeth and limited vocabulary who could hardly string two words together on Newsnight who gave the stock answer “ we voted out , just want out” from Hastings .
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Tonights consisted on ITV of a NI sheep farmer who voted Leave and now is really worried about no deal and selling his lamb to the EU!, and an angry bloke with no teeth and limited vocabulary who could hardly string two words together on Newsnight who gave the stock answer “ we voted out , just want out” from Hastings .
The contrast between the intelligent yummy mummies thoughtful replies and the incoherent ranting of the dentally challenged fisherman on the beach was quite stark. Thats democracy though, every idiots vote counts the same!
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Leavers need better representation from TV producers, I think you meant to say....
Fine , it seems tv producers are determined to reinforce certain stereotypes . If you’re a Leaver the Newsnight section would have been particularly traumatic . It wasn’t pretty . Thankfully the Remainers didn’t let my side down , eloquent and well dressed and looked like they could tie their own shoelaces up!
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
This is a good example, because it was Mulroney’s handling of Quebec and the fallout from the Quebec referendum that destroyed the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives.
Referendums can destroy you.
A recession in the late 1980s and a good and services tax also hit the Tories.
France and Italy are also examples where the main centre right party has been overtaken by a new populist right party with Les Republicains overtaken by National Rally and Forza Italia overtaken by its former junior rightwing coalition partner Lega Nord
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
This is a good example, because it was Mulroney’s handling of Quebec and the fallout from the Quebec referendum that destroyed the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives.
Referendums can destroy you.
Worth saying that so far TMay has managed to dodge nearly all the political hits and let them land on the opposition. She isn't even going to take responsibility for the delay; She's dumping that on Parliament, which will presumably pass it with mainly opposition votes.
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
So what?
The Tories aren't the original Tory party either. That ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. Doesn't stop them being called Tories either.
To a large extent they are e.g. when the Peelites split off from the Tories they formed the Liberals with the Radicals and the Whigs
Same as Harper was a Conservative PM within 13 years of the prior Conservative PM. Yes the party evolved but the legacy is there.
Even if revocation happens it's entirely possible by the early 2030s there's a Tory Leave majority in the Commons under a Tory Leave PM negotiating Brexit following a successful third Brexit referendum.
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Tonights consisted on ITV of a NI sheep farmer who voted Leave and now is really worried about no deal and selling his lamb to the EU!, and an angry bloke with no teeth and limited vocabulary who could hardly string two words together on Newsnight who gave the stock answer “ we voted out , just want out” from Hastings .
The contrast between the intelligent yummy mummies thoughtful replies and the incoherent ranting of the dentally challenged fisherman on the beach was quite stark. Thats democracy though, every idiots vote counts the same!
True , the dentally challenged fisherman really let his side down ! It doesn’t help heal the divisions though when Remainers see their freedoms and rights flushed down the toilet by some who voted and clearly would have been better off staying at home to watch a Jeremy Kyle special than inflicting their idiocy on others through the ballot box .
Same as Harper was a Conservative PM within 13 years of the prior Conservative PM. Yes the party evolved but the legacy is there.
Even if revocation happens it's entirely possible by the early 2030s there's a Tory Leave majority in the Commons under a Tory Leave PM negotiating Brexit following a successful third Brexit referendum.
The lesson of Quebec is that eventually people lose interest. There has not been a Third Quebec Referendum, despite the extreme closeness of the last one. The nationalists have fallen away.
Eventually, other things began to matter to the Quebecois, other than the constitutional position of Quebec in Canada.
It will be the same for the EU. (And for Scotland for that matter).
Leavers need better representation amongst the public .
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Tonights consisted on ITV of a NI sheep farmer who voted Leave and now is really worried about no deal and selling his lamb to the EU!, and an angry bloke with no teeth and limited vocabulary who could hardly string two words together on Newsnight who gave the stock answer “ we voted out , just want out” from Hastings .
The contrast between the intelligent yummy mummies thoughtful replies and the incoherent ranting of the dentally challenged fisherman on the beach was quite stark. Thats democracy though, every idiots vote counts the same!
True , the dentally challenged fisherman really let his side down ! It doesn’t help heal the divisions though when Remainers see their freedoms and rights flushed down the toilet by some who voted and clearly would have been better off staying at home to watch a Jeremy Kyle special than inflicting their idiocy on others through the ballot box .
Was the guy with no teeth a long-term heroin addict though? Hastings does have a bit of a problem:
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
So what?
The Tories aren't the original Tory party either. That ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. Doesn't stop them being called Tories either.
To a large extent they are e.g. when the Peelites split off from the Tories they formed the Liberals with the Radicals and the Whigs
Same as Harper was a Conservative PM within 13 years of the prior Conservative PM. Yes the party evolved but the legacy is there.
Even if revocation happens it's entirely possible by the early 2030s there's a Tory Leave majority in the Commons under a Tory Leave PM negotiating Brexit following a successful third Brexit referendum.
Most of the Canadian Conservative Party's new MPs came from the Canadian Alliance, the successor to the populist Reform Party rather than the Progressive Conservatives and a few Progressive Conservative MPs and Senators defected to the Liberals having opposed the merger
It will eventually. In some form. Within 13 years of the Canadian Conservatives being wiped out to just 2 seats there was a Canadian Conservative PM.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
Except it was not the old Canadian Progressive Conservatives who returned to power but a new Canadian Conservative Party formed from the PCs and the populist Alliance .
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
So what?
The Tories aren't the original Tory party either. That ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. Doesn't stop them being called Tories either.
To a large extent they are e.g. when the Peelites split off from the Tories they formed the Liberals with the Radicals and the Whigs
Same as Harper was a Conservative PM within 13 years of the prior Conservative PM. Yes the party evolved but the legacy is there.
Even if revocation happens it's entirely possible by the early 2030s there's a Tory Leave majority in the Commons under a Tory Leave PM negotiating Brexit following a successful third Brexit referendum.
May the 7 gods protect us from the threat of a second referendum (let alone a third or fourth)
Bad-tempered elderly people were always going to need something to do with their time, standing on the roof shouting something incoherent about democracy sounds better than some of the alternatives. We should get some railings put up there so they don't fall off.
Another Remainer myth.
It was only the 18-24 Age group that were strongly remain. The 24-50 Age group were slightly Remain over Leave whilst over 50 there were large majorities in favour of Leave.
There will be plenty of working age Leavers ready to express their anger if the result is overturned.
Bad-tempered elderly people were always going to need something to do with their time, standing on the roof shouting something incoherent about democracy sounds better than some of the alternatives. We should get some railings put up there so they don't fall off.
Another Remainer myth.
It was only the 18-24 Age group that were strongly remain. The 24-50 Age group were slightly Remain over Leave whilst over 50 there were large majorities in favour of Leave.
There will be plenty of working age Leavers ready to express their anger if the result is overturned.
Your description of the age groups is accurate, and shows how Leave support correlates with age. But also you're talking about not just supporting Leave, but thinking voting is undemocratic, which I guess will also correlate with dementia, which in turn correlates with advanced age.
Also the behaviour you're talking about correlates with "lots of free time on your hands", which is also associated with retirement.
Bad-tempered elderly people were always going to need something to do with their time, standing on the roof shouting something incoherent about democracy sounds better than some of the alternatives. We should get some railings put up there so they don't fall off.
Another Remainer myth.
It was only the 18-24 Age group that were strongly remain. The 24-50 Age group were slightly Remain over Leave whilst over 50 there were large majorities in favour of Leave.
There will be plenty of working age Leavers ready to express their anger if the result is overturned.
How old do you think the person who wrote the offensive letter to Heidi Allen was?
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
The racist Daniel Hannan says that the boycott will turn it into an “African referendum”.
I wasn’t aware DH was racist. What things has he said that are racist?
For example describing dodgy votes as “African”, not to mention his tales of the terror of growing up in the midst of non-English speaking people in Peru.
There are plenty of dodgy votes in Africa. That's a weak example of "racism."
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
If leavers did boycott a second vote people would be looking at the absolute number of remain votes in comparison to 2016.
Boycotting is an incredibly high risk strategy. The danger is it goes off at half cock and gives a result which can be interpreted as either the result of a successful boycott or a substantive heavy defeat. Indeed if i were Remain i would be tempted to run a false flag #boycotttheeuref campaign. Plus the appetite for remain in parliament is such that it is ridiculous to think that any Remain win won't be seized on with both hands and taken at face value whether it looks like 52:48 or 98:2.
As a basic matter of principle I would not vote in a second referendum and would be urging anyone I could to boycott. I would also continue to campaign to boycott any future elections on the grounds that the politicians have shown themselves undeserving of our trust. Basically voting for them gives them an sheen of legitimacy that they no longer deserve.
Understandable, but wrong. Our opponents want us to stop voting. Don't do what they want.
Who could have predicted a few years ago that the Bicester Village shopping experience would be the second most popular UK tourist attraction for Chinese tourists?
I go every now and then, and it is full of the overpriced designer tat that the Chinese seem to love. To be fair on Chinese students, they wear it well. The girls in particular are very well turned out, even the ones who sit near me in the East Stand at Leicester City.
Interesting. I remember going there when it first opened. There weren't any foreign tourists for the first few years and it had a sleepy type of atmosphere. Parking was outside, next to the shops, whereas now it's in multi-storey car parks.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
The racist Daniel Hannan says that the boycott will turn it into an “African referendum”.
I wasn’t aware DH was racist. What things has he said that are racist?
For example describing dodgy votes as “African”, not to mention his tales of the terror of growing up in the midst of non-English speaking people in Peru.
There are plenty of dodgy votes in Africa. That's a weak example of "racism."
He should have avoided any potential racism accusations by going for banana republic instead...
It is a little bit of a weird phrase to use, google just ended up showing me the South African referendum on apartheid rather than a known phrase.
Bad-tempered elderly people were always going to need something to do with their time, standing on the roof shouting something incoherent about democracy sounds better than some of the alternatives. We should get some railings put up there so they don't fall off.
Another Remainer myth.
It was only the 18-24 Age group that were strongly remain. The 24-50 Age group were slightly Remain over Leave whilst over 50 there were large majorities in favour of Leave.
There will be plenty of working age Leavers ready to express their anger if the result is overturned.
Since when was 24-50 ever treated as an age group?
He does seem to have missed an easy way to avoid that scenario. What could it be?
I’m embarrassed to say this, but there was a time I respected Andrew Lilico.
He’s since turned into a raver.
I see that and raise you liking Andrea Jenkyns and helping her win her seat.
You should all do some kind of penance. I remember back in 2015 telling Tory colleagues (who were convinced that Ed Miliband was some kind of Communist... such innocent days) that there was nothing in Labour's manifesto as dangerous as the Tories' EU referendum pledge. They all thought I was crazy, and cheered deliriously when Ed Balls lost his seat. They're not laughing now.
Alarming top story on the BBC, with Pakistan shooting down two Indian planes.
I was quite surprised this (NB the planes hadn't been shot down at the time, but airstrikes had occurred) was behind the Tommy Robinson Facebook ban on the running order last night.
I can live with that. I think its deeply concerning to go into a Treaty expecting to need to unilaterally abrogate it while the other party is making clear you can't unilaterally do so though.
But we only need to unilaterally abrogate in the event that the EU (and Ireland) do not keep to their side of the bargain - see the Withdrawal Agreement, page 302, paragraph 2 which obliges the parties to work to replace the backstop. If the EU and Ireland do not do that, then they have broken to the treaty.
We only abrogate in the circumstance where the EU does not abide by its treaty obligations; abrogation is not our intention.
Who gets to adjudicate whether the EU and Ireland have not kept to their side of the bargain though? The Irish will insist they have, even if we think they haven't. Both parties may genuinely believe their own side too. An exit clause with a lengthy enough period would make far more sense to me, there was a 2 year exit clause from the EU itself so why not a 2 year exit clause from the deal?
That's longer than the 12 months exit we'll have to give under the Vienna Convention (if it applies)
PS Thanks for your positive remarks FPT about my proposal to extend to end 2020. From where we are now that seems to me the most logical thing to do, extending for a couple of months (unless a deal has already been agreed and we just need time to get it implemented) is utterly pointless. A lengthy extension would allow us to get stuff done and get Fox replaced or to take his job seriously.
Well, there are plenty of existing international arbitration systems already in existence. Many of which the EU already leans upon.
But to keep things moving, we should simply announce we would be forming an international committee of independent trade academics. We should even invite someone from the EU to be on it. And it writes a report every year on whether the parties are abiding by their treaty commitments.
You know, this conversation makes me wonder if the people involved have read the damn agreement themselves. Especially clause 164 which sets up just such a committee, half of it nominated by, and co-chaired by, the UK.
Alarming top story on the BBC, with Pakistan shooting down two Indian planes.
I was quite surprised this (NB the planes hadn't been shot down at the time, but airstrikes had occurred) was behind the Tommy Robinson Facebook ban on the running order last night.
Judging from the military activity and instructions given to civilians India are preparing a full-scale invasion of Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.
I don't think this is going to end well for anybody. So far as I can think this would be the first direct war between two nuclear powers.
Bad-tempered elderly people were always going to need something to do with their time, standing on the roof shouting something incoherent about democracy sounds better than some of the alternatives. We should get some railings put up there so they don't fall off.
Another Remainer myth.
It was only the 18-24 Age group that were strongly remain. The 24-50 Age group were slightly Remain over Leave whilst over 50 there were large majorities in favour of Leave.
There will be plenty of working age Leavers ready to express their anger if the result is overturned.
How old do you think the person who wrote the offensive letter to Heidi Allen was?
Alarming top story on the BBC, with Pakistan shooting down two Indian planes.
I was quite surprised this (NB the planes hadn't been shot down at the time, but airstrikes had occurred) was behind the Tommy Robinson Facebook ban on the running order last night.
Judging from the military activity and instructions given to civilians India are preparing a full-scale invasion of Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.
I don't think this is going to end well for anybody. So far as I can think this would be the first direct war between two nuclear powers.
I must be a gross cynic, because I note that an election is due in India, and Modi hadn’t been doing too well in the polls.
Let us hope this does not escalate as you suggest.
If Leavers boycotted I doubt it would stop remain from claiming the win.
But Leavers would then spend the next years claiming it was illegitimate and we'd never hear the end of it.
But we would remain. For a while.
The racist Daniel Hannan says that the boycott will turn it into an “African referendum”.
I wasn’t aware DH was racist. What things has he said that are racist?
For example describing dodgy votes as “African”, not to mention his tales of the terror of growing up in the midst of non-English speaking people in Peru.
There are plenty of dodgy votes in Africa. That's a weak example of "racism."
He should have avoided any potential racism accusations by going for banana republic instead...
It is a little bit of a weird phrase to use, google just ended up showing me the South African referendum on apartheid rather than a known phrase.
Hmm, you seem to have an incredibly sensitive nose when it comes to racism outside the Labour Party, and a dead one when it comes to those within the Labour Party (or at least, within your wing of it).
Cohen's evidence today sounds interesting, but I wonder if some of the charges won't be greeted with a shrug. He expressed pleasure at the news that someone was about to release emails damaging to Clinton's campaign? Wouldn't any politician react like that, even if a bit queasily? He paid off a mistress? Yeah, we kinda knew that. He saw the campaign as a marketing stunt? A point of historical interest, but not relevant now. He made a racist comment? What a surprise.
If I were a Democrat, I'd home in on what seems to be a footnote - that he refused to provide any medical evidence for his Vietnam exemption and says he'd have been stupid to go there. I think his Democrat opponent should call him a "draft dodger" - no worse than the stuff that he throws out, and something which will genuinely worry part of his base.
Alarming top story on the BBC, with Pakistan shooting down two Indian planes.
I was quite surprised this (NB the planes hadn't been shot down at the time, but airstrikes had occurred) was behind the Tommy Robinson Facebook ban on the running order last night.
Judging from the military activity and instructions given to civilians India are preparing a full-scale invasion of Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.
I don't think this is going to end well for anybody. So far as I can think this would be the first direct war between two nuclear powers.
I must be a gross cynic, because I note that an election is due in India, and Modi hadn’t been doing too well in the polls.
Let us hope this does not escalate as you suggest.
Like the Spanish over Gibraltar or Argentina over the Falklands? Every time the price of butter rises in Buenos Aires, the government lodges a diplomatic protest?
It's possible. But it would be fearfully easy in this sort of situation to provoke a war by accident by misreading your enemy's intentions. Just ask Hitler.
At the core of the paralysis is the fallacy of the One True Brexit. This is the mythical deal that avoids economic disturbance while convincing ardent leavers that their demands have been met. This cannot exist because the disruption itself – the sound of fabric tearing and glass breaking – is what many Brexiters crave. Stable transition defers the gratification of instantaneous release. But it is also in the nature of Brexit, even in its hardest form, that the moment of release is illusory. It is a process, not a destination. The article 50 timetable gives structure to the first phase but it never offered resolution. The highest point for leavers, the purest elation, was in the early hours of 24 June 2016, when the referendum result was declared. The trajectory since then was towards failure. Disappointment was coded into Brexit’s political algorithms.
There is no variant of the future in which Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg declare themselves satisfied with the outcome of Brexit and magnanimously seek reconciliation with its critics. Grievance is the raw material they need to fuel their politics, and Euroscepticism is the mine where they extract it. They will not shut the facility down to celebrate Britain leaving the EU. Europe will always be there on our doorstep, brazenly existing, flaunting its continentalism in our faces, and the Brexit hardliners are impatient to move on to the next phase of their betrayal.
What these countries need is some sort of Brexit equivalent that is going to paralyse their political class completely and expose them to such ridicule that no one will ever take anything they say seriously again. Wars don't do that, we tried with Iraq and people still listened to the prats. Hell, Alastair Campbell was on the radio again on Monday and not just for the laughs.
What these countries need is some sort of Brexit equivalent that is going to paralyse their political class completely and expose them to such ridicule that no one will ever take anything they say seriously again. Wars don't do that, we tried with Iraq and people still listened to the prats. Hell, Alastair Campbell was on the radio again on Monday and not just for the laughs.
I think his Democrat opponent should call him a "draft dodger" - no worse than the stuff that he throws out, and something which will genuinely worry part of his base.
This only has any heft if it comes from somebody who did serve and Bernie's years as a KGB asset don't count. Biden also dodged via highly convenient asthma. It's like when the pb.com tory chickenhawks call out Corbo's lack of military zeal - it means nothing.
It would take somebody like Senator Tammy Duckworth to say it with genuine authenticity.
I can live with that. I think its deeply concerning to go into a Treaty expecting to need to unilaterally abrogate it while the other party is making clear you can't unilaterally do so though.
But we only need to unilaterally abrogate in the event that the EU (and Ireland) do not keep to their side of the bargain - see the Withdrawal Agreement, page 302, paragraph 2 which obliges the parties to work to replace the backstop. If the EU and Ireland do not do that, then they have broken to the treaty.
We only abrogate in the circumstance where the EU does not abide by its treaty obligations; abrogation is not our intention.
Who gets to adjudicate whether the EU and Ireland have not kept to their side of the bargain though? The Irish will insist they have, even if we think they haven't. Both parties may genuinely believe their own side too. An exit clause with a lengthy enough period would make far more sense to me, there was a 2 year exit clause from the EU itself so why not a 2 year exit clause from the deal?
That's longer than the 12 months exit we'll have to give under the Vienna Convention (if it applies)
Well, there are plenty of existing international arbitration systems already in existence. Many of which the EU already leans upon.
But to keep things moving, we should simply announce we would be forming an international committee of independent trade academics. We should even invite someone from the EU to be on it. And it writes a report every year on whether the parties are abiding by their treaty commitments.
You know, this conversation makes me wonder if the people involved have read the damn agreement themselves. Especially clause 164 which sets up just such a committee, half of it nominated by, and co-chaired by, the UK.
There’s so much of this. Modern life is so complex but we increasingly look for binary solutions so as not to engage with the boring small print. Civilization is not exiting - it’s held up by a lot of complex, interconnected and very dull details. A movie about the millennia long development of Rome and its civilization would bomb, whereas one set against its sacking, with detailed special effects detailing the destruction, would more likely be a hit. We love the excitement of politics but have no time for the boring admin required to actually run a prosperous country.
I think his Democrat opponent should call him a "draft dodger" - no worse than the stuff that he throws out, and something which will genuinely worry part of his base.
This only has any heft if it comes from somebody who did serve and Bernie's years as a KGB asset don't count. Biden also dodged via highly convenient asthma. It's like when the pb.com tory chickenhawks call out Corbo's lack of military zeal - it means nothing.
It would take somebody like Senator Tammy Duckworth to say it with genuine authenticity.
George W Bush was a draft dodger, so was Clinton IIRC. The evidence that it affects prospects is...slight.
I think his Democrat opponent should call him a "draft dodger" - no worse than the stuff that he throws out, and something which will genuinely worry part of his base.
This only has any heft if it comes from somebody who did serve and Bernie's years as a KGB asset don't count. Biden also dodged via highly convenient asthma. It's like when the pb.com tory chickenhawks call out Corbo's lack of military zeal - it means nothing.
It would take somebody like Senator Tammy Duckworth to say it with genuine authenticity.
George W Bush was a draft dodger, so was Clinton IIRC. The evidence that it affects prospects is...slight.
Clinton, as a coming man, was not affected by his dodging a career as a seaman?
Who could have predicted a few years ago that the Bicester Village shopping experience would be the second most popular UK tourist attraction for Chinese tourists?
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With all the internal migration there may be even more, particularly as Chinese have a high savings rate and like Britons like bricks and mortar as a concrete asset.
I don't believe democracy is ever going to be under threat in Britain. It is too deep rooted. A further vote would be a vindication of democracy.
1: No deal is better than a bad deal.
2: No Brexit is better than a bad Brexit.
Letting people vote is what Democcracy means.
The party may go but the ideas and voters are still there for a resurgence after years in opposition getting your s""t together.
What a party
Give us a vote with everything stacked in your favour
then lose it
By remainers accounts the vote that was offered was essentially for economic disaster in any event - so why risk it?
You don't deserve power
However even No Deal would not fatally damage the Tories, the vast majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain. The only way the Tories would be dead is to revoke in which case they may be overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party/UKIP and eventually forced to merge with the latter to get back to power (as happened to Canada's Progressive Conservative Party when they were overtaken by the populist rightwing Reform Party at the 1993 election and eventually forced to merge with the Alliance, Reform's successor, in 2004 to form the Conservative Party of Canada which was able to form a minority government after the 2006 election)
If Parliament had a Leave backing majority including PM then this would be a whole different ballgame.
And no Remainer would ever call another referendum. It would take a Leaver taking over and winning a vote to trigger the next invocation which with hindsight is how it should have triggered the first.
The equivalent would be the Tories revoking Brexit, being overtaken by Farage's Brexit Party at the next election and only returning to office after merging with the latter
That is indeed the correct answer.
Assuming you didn't Google it, then please PM me your address, and I shall send across SeanT's next magnum opus.
May is a Remainer.
That’s one of my favourite jokes. Brilliant one-liner.
Who could have predicted a few years ago that the Bicester Village shopping experience would be the second most popular UK tourist attraction for Chinese tourists?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42015714
The Tories aren't the original Tory party either. That ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. Doesn't stop them being called Tories either.
Never thought it would be CORRECT!
When tv news reporters interview them they always seem to find people who either look like their heads going to explode with rage or find someone who clearly voted against their own interests .
Tonights consisted on ITV of a NI sheep farmer who voted Leave and now is really worried about no deal and selling his lamb to the EU!, and an angry bloke with no teeth and limited vocabulary who could hardly string two words together on Newsnight who gave the stock answer “ we voted out , just want out” from Hastings .
Referendums can destroy you.
I go every now and then, and it is full of the overpriced designer tat that the Chinese seem to love. To be fair on Chinese students, they wear it well. The girls in particular are very well turned out, even the ones who sit near me in the East Stand at Leicester City.
Media is now about influencing, not informing.
France and Italy are also examples where the main centre right party has been overtaken by a new populist right party with Les Republicains overtaken by National Rally and Forza Italia overtaken by its former junior rightwing coalition partner Lega Nord
Even if revocation happens it's entirely possible by the early 2030s there's a Tory Leave majority in the Commons under a Tory Leave PM negotiating Brexit following a successful third Brexit referendum.
Eventually, other things began to matter to the Quebecois, other than the constitutional position of Quebec in Canada.
It will be the same for the EU. (And for Scotland for that matter).
https://cassioburycourt.com/2018/05/small-town-hastings-hit-by-heroin-epidemic/
https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1100432298716078080
It was only the 18-24 Age group that were strongly remain. The 24-50 Age group were slightly Remain over Leave whilst over 50 there were large majorities in favour of Leave.
There will be plenty of working age Leavers ready to express their anger if the result is overturned.
Also the behaviour you're talking about correlates with "lots of free time on your hands", which is also associated with retirement.
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1100524464620613633
https://twitter.com/CivMilAir/status/1100580114771951617
It is a little bit of a weird phrase to use, google just ended up showing me the South African referendum on apartheid rather than a known phrase.
He perfectly encapsulates why Labour are 15% lower in the polls than they might be.
Alarming top story on the BBC, with Pakistan shooting down two Indian planes.
I was quite surprised this (NB the planes hadn't been shot down at the time, but airstrikes had occurred) was behind the Tommy Robinson Facebook ban on the running order last night.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-odd-shaped-motorcade/
I don't think this is going to end well for anybody. So far as I can think this would be the first direct war between two nuclear powers.
Let us hope this does not escalate as you suggest.
Odd that.
If I were a Democrat, I'd home in on what seems to be a footnote - that he refused to provide any medical evidence for his Vietnam exemption and says he'd have been stupid to go there. I think his Democrat opponent should call him a "draft dodger" - no worse than the stuff that he throws out, and something which will genuinely worry part of his base.
https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/status/1100573139241709573
It's possible. But it would be fearfully easy in this sort of situation to provoke a war by accident by misreading your enemy's intentions. Just ask Hitler.
Theresa May has led them there.
There is no variant of the future in which Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg declare themselves satisfied with the outcome of Brexit and magnanimously seek reconciliation with its critics. Grievance is the raw material they need to fuel their politics, and Euroscepticism is the mine where they extract it. They will not shut the facility down to celebrate Britain leaving the EU. Europe will always be there on our doorstep, brazenly existing, flaunting its continentalism in our faces, and the Brexit hardliners are impatient to move on to the next phase of their betrayal.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/27/clean-brexit-theresa-may
What these countries need is some sort of Brexit equivalent that is going to paralyse their political class completely and expose them to such ridicule that no one will ever take anything they say seriously again. Wars don't do that, we tried with Iraq and people still listened to the prats. Hell, Alastair Campbell was on the radio again on Monday and not just for the laughs.
What these countries need is some sort of Brexit equivalent that is going to paralyse their political class completely and expose them to such ridicule that no one will ever take anything they say seriously again. Wars don't do that, we tried with Iraq and people still listened to the prats. Hell, Alastair Campbell was on the radio again on Monday and not just for the laughs.
It would take somebody like Senator Tammy Duckworth to say it with genuine authenticity.
I'll get my coat. Have a good morning.