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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,134
    edited February 2019



    Its a bit hard to get into the best unis if your A-Level grades are crap. Its not the unis fault if applicants from particular demographics have far worse attainment. Its starts much lower down.

    That's glib to the point of being offensive.

    Universities set admission policy, they don't have to do so exclusively on the basis of "A" levels which are easy to game for rich people. There are other ways to identify talented candidates.
    When it comes to a lot of subjects, especially STEM, although A-Levels aren't perfect, there are the best way to identify talent from the options available for a standard 18 year old applicant (mature students there are other things to consider).

    However, I have long advocated on here, the best single change that could be made to assist those from poorer backgrounds / worse schools, post A-Level result applications.

    Then applications would be based on actual results, not gamed predictions, and the universities could see the standing on a candidate in relation to peers (and if they choose make some consideration for other factors).
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    If the nominee is a man, I think it's pretty likely the VP would be a woman.
  • On topic, the argument has a missing premise, which is that the only possible white dudes are Beto, Bernie, Biden and Brown. But American politics has a lot of white dudes, not all of whom have names beginning with "B".
  • Also the reason why a female presidential candidate would pick a male VP isn't just to reach out to the long-underrepresented white male demographic, it's also to provide reassurance to people who find the thing feels somehow unpresidenty. In which case you want someone who can bring seriousness and experience, like Biden did for Obama. Definitely not Beto, who is way too emo.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157
  • I do love the "Corbyn is electable" line. Course he is - as was Gordon Brown. Yet both lost. Oddly Brown is vilified for his loss by the same people who celebrate Corbyns loss as some kind of victory.

    If Corbyn is electable then why do Labour voters tell us on the doorstep they can't vote for us in LOCAL elections because of Corbyn?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    It is. He rarely writes a bad one.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I do love the "Corbyn is electable" line. Course he is - as was Gordon Brown. Yet both lost. Oddly Brown is vilified for his loss by the same people who celebrate Corbyns loss as some kind of victory.

    If Corbyn is electable then why do Labour voters tell us on the doorstep they can't vote for us in LOCAL elections because of Corbyn?

    I didn't know many Corbyn fans vilified Brown for his loss... I assumed the left more thought of him as coming in at the end of Blair's reign and being judged by the electorate more on that. Surely your lot in the progress group were more critical of Brown for not being more like Blair?

    If Corbyn isn't electable then why did so many people vote for Labour in the NATIONAL election because of Corbyn?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2019
    "Spain budget failure puts snap election on the cards"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47225867

    The leading party in the Spanish opinion polls is on about 22-23%.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
  • Hot take from a man whose firm opened an office in Dublin so that it could carry on operating within the Single Market ...

    https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1095711858781237249?s=21
  • I know it’s politicalbetting and all but I really struggle to conjure up interest in betting on the race to be Democratic candidate for the next US Presidential election.

    I was more interested in the postal referendum on PR carried out in British Columbia last autumn.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    It is. He rarely writes a bad one.
    Apart from 1940-41, Churchills record as a politician was poor. His leadership later in the war was not so impressive, and it is not just left wingers or Indians who say so. My older Australian relatives were damning of both his role in Gallipoli, but also in holding the Australian Divisions in the Middle East, rather than releasing them back to defend Australia in 1942. This and the American willingness to defend Australia at the Battle of the Coral Sea is why Australia tilted to America as its principal alliance.

    https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781742623672/
  • Scott_P said:
    And are they ignoring the deadlock in the HOC

    Given it’s Faisal Islam we should take it with a big pinch of salt, but if business leaders did ask TM to unilaterally revoke A50 then they’re living on a totally different planet, have learnt nothing from the last 2 and a half years and are politically inept.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
  • rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    I can’t read it (paywall) but history won’t make it comfortable to peer into many of our souls.

    Churchill was a rather typical aristocratic Victorian gentleman, if a slightly romantically gun-ho one, and attitudes to race such as his were very widespread amongst the general population then. Indeed, discrimination based upon it was a matter of public policy in many Western countries until the 1960s.

    How will all of us stand up to scrutiny in 50 years?

    Maybe we’ll think we were all loons for demanding the heads and careers of people who were honest about past indiscretions many decades ago, find the whole concept of cultural appropriation hilarious and comment shamefully on the quashing of free speech and civilised dialogue and discourse in the age of digital and social media.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
    There are always a fair number of bright poor white children, as it is a large group and there is regression to the mean in less bright families. There is a lack of academic aspiration at home though, compounded by lack of peers and role models as well as family breakdown and lack of strong moral code such as religion. That is why Asian or Chinese from the same background and schools do much better.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    I can’t read it (paywall) but history won’t make it comfortable to peer into many of our souls.

    Churchill was a rather typical aristocratic Victorian gentleman, if a slightly romantically gun-ho one, and attitudes to race such as his were very widespread amongst the general population then. Indeed, discrimination based upon it was a matter of public policy in many Western countries until the 1960s.

    How will all of us stand up to scrutiny in 50 years?

    Maybe we’ll think we were all loons for demanding the heads and careers of people who were honest about past indiscretions many decades ago, find the whole concept of cultural appropriation hilarious and comment shamefully on the quashing of free speech and civilised dialogue and discourse in the age of digital and social media.
    Quite right. One cannot 'blame' someone for being a child of their time, not ours.
  • How whiggish of John McDonnell to believe in the good man / bad man idea of history.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
    There are always a fair number of bright poor white children, as it is a large group and there is regression to the mean in less bright families. There is a lack of academic aspiration at home though, compounded by lack of peers and role models as well as family breakdown and lack of strong moral code such as religion. That is why Asian or Chinese from the same background and schools do much better.
    Indeed; family attitude is extremely important.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
    There are always a fair number of bright poor white children, as it is a large group and there is regression to the mean in less bright families. There is a lack of academic aspiration at home though, compounded by lack of peers and role models as well as family breakdown and lack of strong moral code such as religion. That is why Asian or Chinese from the same background and schools do much better.
    The difference is that if we were talking about black/Asian/girls - you'd be up in arms rather than the attitude summed up ni your post of a written 'shrug'.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Beta role for Beto?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Cannabis use in teens linked to depression

    UK and Canada researchers said they had found "robust" evidence showing using the drug in adolescence increased the risk of developing depression in adulthood by 37%."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47215806
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Scott_P said:
    And are they ignoring the deadlock in the HOC

    Given it’s Faisal Islam we should take it with a big pinch of salt, but if business leaders did ask TM to unilaterally revoke A50 then they’re living on a totally different planet, have learnt nothing from the last 2 and a half years and are politically inept.
    I'm not a business leader, but I do have a business. And that is exactly what I would ask Theresa May to do if I got within earshot of her.

    In fact, I'll write to my MP right away and ask him to back revocation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Scott_P said:
    Lol, things that will always happen ..... Tommorow
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    It is. He rarely writes a bad one.
    Apart from 1940-41, Churchills record as a politician was poor. His leadership later in the war was not so impressive, and it is not just left wingers or Indians who say so. My older Australian relatives were damning of both his role in Gallipoli, but also in holding the Australian Divisions in the Middle East, rather than releasing them back to defend Australia in 1942. This and the American willingness to defend Australia at the Battle of the Coral Sea is why Australia tilted to America as its principal alliance.

    https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781742623672/
    But that is really beside the point.
    His achievement was to persuade the nation to sacrifice what he treasured - Britain’s imperial power - to defeat Hitler.
    He had many failings and failures during his career, but when it came to the biggest choice of all, he made the correct one.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
    There are always a fair number of bright poor white children, as it is a large group and there is regression to the mean in less bright families. There is a lack of academic aspiration at home though, compounded by lack of peers and role models as well as family breakdown and lack of strong moral code such as religion. That is why Asian or Chinese from the same background and schools do much better.
    The difference is that if we were talking about black/Asian/girls - you'd be up in arms rather than the attitude summed up ni your post of a written 'shrug'.
    Not true. As you can see by my previous posts in this thread I have been a part of reformatting Medical Entrance in favour of poor white males. My point that the decline of family life and religiosity amongst the working classes is in part to blame is hardly a left wing trope either!

    But if you prefer your straw men, go right ahead with your predjudices.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676
    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    Brexit is the ultimate example of the genre.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279

    I know it’s politicalbetting and all but I really struggle to conjure up interest in betting on the race to be Democratic candidate for the next US Presidential election.

    I was more interested in the postal referendum on PR carried out in British Columbia last autumn.

    Each to their own, I guess. Some will find your interests equally unfathomable.

    And I think you’ll find Brotdh Columbia betting markets a little less liquid...
  • Morning all. Anybody else struggling with The Times online today?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
  • Sweeney74 said:

    Morning all. Anybody else struggling with The Times online today?

    It's working OK for me - both on PC and tablet
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Scott_P said:
    I see Chris Grayling has found a way to meet the voters without being hassled about transport issues.....
  • andypetuk said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Morning all. Anybody else struggling with The Times online today?

    It's working OK for me - both on PC and tablet
    I’m apparently logged in but can only see the Times 2, Law and Scotland sections.

    V odd
  • Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    It is. He rarely writes a bad one.
    Apart from 1940-41, Churchills record as a politician was poor. His leadership later in the war was not so impressive, and it is not just left wingers or Indians who say so. My older Australian relatives were damning of both his role in Gallipoli, but also in holding the Australian Divisions in the Middle East, rather than releasing them back to defend Australia in 1942. This and the American willingness to defend Australia at the Battle of the Coral Sea is why Australia tilted to America as its principal alliance.

    https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781742623672/
    Considering that two of the three Australian divisions did return to Australia in early 1942 and the third did after El Alamein that's an accusation with more self-pity than substance.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    C'est l'hôpital qui se moque de la charité!
  • Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    It is. He rarely writes a bad one.
    Apart from 1940-41, Churchills record as a politician was poor. His leadership later in the war was not so impressive, and it is not just left wingers or Indians who say so. My older Australian relatives were damning of both his role in Gallipoli, but also in holding the Australian Divisions in the Middle East, rather than releasing them back to defend Australia in 1942. This and the American willingness to defend Australia at the Battle of the Coral Sea is why Australia tilted to America as its principal alliance.

    https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781742623672/
    Considering that two of the three Australian divisions did return to Australia in early 1942 and the third did after El Alamein that's an accusation with more self-pity than substance.
    Indeed. I grew up in Australia and Gallipoli plays a very large role in Australia's history, as does American help in the Pacific during the war. But the idea of Australian divisions staying in the Middle East? No.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    It wouldn't surprise me if McDonnell couldn't find Tonypandy on a map.

    He is losing his touch, he forgot to mention Gallipoli, The Return to The Gold Standard, The Bengal Famine, The General Strike and The Black and Tans. Churchill's views on India put him beyond the pale in the 1930s, and he was effectively kept out of office by Baldwin and Chamberlain.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    Brexit is the ultimate example of the genre.
    For some maybe

    For more it was an assessment of the costs and benefits of membership with more weight put on intangible values than you might choose.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    Try asking that in Drogheda or Waterford
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    Brexit is the ultimate example of the genre.
    For some maybe

    For more it was an assessment of the costs and benefits of membership with more weight put on intangible values than you might choose.
    So what is the biggest benefit?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Was Winston a “racist”? Then, probably, so were Attlee, Beveridge, JFK, and, if you like, Marx and Lenin.

    I’ve no issue with honest appraisal of historical figures, but this whole kulturkampf is all about driving wedges, and even risks people wondering if racism is so bad after all.
  • So how long do we think before it goes bankrupt again ?

    Eighteen months seems about right.
  • Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
    There are always a fair number of bright poor white children, as it is a large group and there is regression to the mean in less bright families. There is a lack of academic aspiration at home though, compounded by lack of peers and role models as well as family breakdown and lack of strong moral code such as religion. That is why Asian or Chinese from the same background and schools do much better.
    The difference is that if we were talking about black/Asian/girls - you'd be up in arms rather than the attitude summed up ni your post of a written 'shrug'.
    Not true. As you can see by my previous posts in this thread I have been a part of reformatting Medical Entrance in favour of poor white males. My point that the decline of family life and religiosity amongst the working classes is in part to blame is hardly a left wing trope either!

    But if you prefer your straw men, go right ahead with your predjudices.
    We don't often agree but I absolutely agree with you. On my visits to China, Japan and the far east the bond of family shines out whenever you engage with the people and their culture. It is something we have lost to an extent in the working class and wider society
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    Try asking that in Drogheda or Waterford
    I'll see your Drogheda and Waterford and raise you Dresden and Hamburg.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    What sort of new party might prosper in UK?

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1095965243673583617

    Perhaps Goodwin is being a contrarian, but it is worth asking are the fracture lines he talks about those which are appearing in Lab and Con parties?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Danny Finkelstein wrote a more balanced article about Winston Churchill the other day.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchill-was-a-racist-but-still-a-great-man-vnhkhfnpm

    What an excellent article.
    It is. He rarely writes a bad one.
    Apart from 1940-41, Churchills record as a politician was poor. His leadership later in the war was not so impressive, and it is not just left wingers or Indians who say so. My older Australian relatives were damning of both his role in Gallipoli, but also in holding the Australian Divisions in the Middle East, rather than releasing them back to defend Australia in 1942. This and the American willingness to defend Australia at the Battle of the Coral Sea is why Australia tilted to America as its principal alliance.

    https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781742623672/
    Considering that two of the three Australian divisions did return to Australia in early 1942 and the third did after El Alamein that's an accusation with more self-pity than substance.
    Indeed. I grew up in Australia and Gallipoli plays a very large role in Australia's history, as does American help in the Pacific during the war. But the idea of Australian divisions staying in the Middle East? No.
    Just shows how important 'alternative' versions of history, or legends, can be.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Christophe Dettinger the gilet jaune boxer who gave the gendarmes a boxing lesson has been sentenced to 30 months of which he will serve 12 in prison.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2019/02/13/01016-20190213ARTFIG00282-gilets-jaunes-au-tribunal-l-ex-boxeur-tente-de-se-justifier.php
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    dr_spyn said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    It wouldn't surprise me if McDonnell couldn't find Tonypandy on a map.

    He is losing his touch, he forgot to mention Gallipoli, The Return to The Gold Standard, The Bengal Famine, The General Strike and The Black and Tans. Churchill's views on India put him beyond the pale in the 1930s, and he was effectively kept out of office by Baldwin and Chamberlain.
    I’ve no problem with McDonnell thinking Churchill a villain for what he may or may not have done at Tonypandy. I’m sure he equally thinks Mao a villain for the many millions he killed and would not want to speak or march under banners of such mass murderers.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JBickertonUK/status/991322649056960512
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    Try asking that in Drogheda or Waterford
    I'll see your Drogheda and Waterford and raise you Dresden and Hamburg.

    Galatians VI
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    C'est qui se moque de la charité!
    I was wondering if anyone would pick that up
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    dr_spyn said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    It wouldn't surprise me if McDonnell couldn't find Tonypandy on a map.

    He is losing his touch, he forgot to mention Gallipoli, The Return to The Gold Standard, The Bengal Famine, The General Strike and The Black and Tans. Churchill's views on India put him beyond the pale in the 1930s, and he was effectively kept out of office by Baldwin and Chamberlain.
    In some quarters there are even doubts about bombing strategy during the Second World War.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    So how long do we think before it goes bankrupt again ?

    Eighteen months seems about right.
    30th March obviously. No supplies and all the customers will be dead.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,388

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157

    As someone involved with the selection process for Medical School, we certainly would encourage such applicants and have tinkered with our processes to help. For example we encourage post A level applicants, with concrete results rather than over egged predictions.

    The problem lies upstream though with few having the A levels or aspiration, and while school plays a substantial part, family culture to academic aspiration, or more accurate the lack of this, is where things go wrong.
    I've often wondered about this; up until the mid 40's it was very hard for someone from the 'working class' to gain any sort of education after 14 or so. After that it became somewhat (at least) easier for a young person to move from their roots to some sort of managerial or professional job. That of course left those with, as Foxy says, a family culture which lacked much if any academic aspiration, without any peers who progressed.
    I recall reading somewhere that if one found a bright child with, apparently, no academic interest in his or her immediate family, a little digging soon found an aunt who had managed to become a teacher, or uncle who was a foreman. Or something like that
    There are always a fair number of bright poor white children, as it is a large group and there is regression to the mean in less bright families. There is a lack of academic aspiration at home though, compounded by lack of peers and role models as well as family breakdown and lack of strong moral code such as religion. That is why Asian or Chinese from the same background and schools do much better.
    The difference is that if we were talking about black/Asian/girls - you'd be up in arms rather than the attitude summed up ni your post of a written 'shrug'.
    Not true. As you can see by my previous posts in this thread I have been a part of reformatting Medical Entrance in favour of poor white males. My point that the decline of family life and religiosity amongst the working classes is in part to blame is hardly a left wing trope either!

    But if you prefer your straw men, go right ahead with your predjudices.
    We don't often agree but I absolutely agree with you. On my visits to China, Japan and the far east the bond of family shines out whenever you engage with the people and their culture. It is something we have lost to an extent in the working class and wider society
    East Asian societies also stand out as having very low levels of violence.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    edited February 2019
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Watching ITV News at Ten was a little nugget that I had missed from the reporting of Tessas little indicate barfly sidekick. He was talking about a Deal vs 21 month extension. That coincides with the duration of the proposed WA. Now we know that the WA is largely a standstill arrangement, so keeping the timing and going straight to FTA is actually pretty similar. The advantage for Tess is time for a GE or #peoplesvote, for the EU, the completion of the budget cycle. For both it is the FTA that matters. I can see it happening.

    Betfair has an exit date of last quarter 2020 as 28, so worth a punt in my analysis.

    Starting discussions on the future arrangement first would have avoided all of this.
    Sure, but I can see the advantage for both sides of converting the WA timeframe to status quo.

    28 well worth a nibble IMO.
    Would be a big concession from the EU, to admit how wrong they were in terms of sequencing.
    Though it does resolve all 3 issues of the WA in the short term, and open up FTA terms for negotiation. It moves things on by cunningly bypassing a meaningful vote. If course it is very possible that at the end of the extension Brexit has been reversed/abandoned too.

    I can see it getting EU and Labour support.
    I can't see it getting support from the Tory awkward squad, any more than any of the other sensible ways out of this mess.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    Well, when discussing the historical actions of historical figures it is best to dicuss things they did.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    To be renamed Patisserie Mrs Doyle?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    Try asking that in Drogheda or Waterford
    I'll see your Drogheda and Waterford and raise you Dresden and Hamburg.

    Galatians VI
    Had to look it up, but you are of course right.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Chris said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Charles said:

    dr_spyn said:

    John McDonnell playing the Tonypandy card for all its worth 109 years later.

    That’s what you get when you have people with long memories that are obsessed by the past
    We are of course talking about an event which, if not in the dories of many alive today, is within the memories and tales told by, their parents and certainly their grandparents.

    I wonder whether the views would be less passionate if we were discussing, for example, Cromwell.
    It wouldn't surprise me if McDonnell couldn't find Tonypandy on a map.

    He is losing his touch, he forgot to mention Gallipoli, The Return to The Gold Standard, The Bengal Famine, The General Strike and The Black and Tans. Churchill's views on India put him beyond the pale in the 1930s, and he was effectively kept out of office by Baldwin and Chamberlain.
    In some quarters there are even doubts about bombing strategy during the Second World War.
    And he was the Chancellor who first raided the Road Fund.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Different times, different customs, as the Roman bloke said, and he had a lot less history to contend with. It's all a bit silly transferring our politically correct customs to past ages.

    But it gives some people a chance to virtue-signal with a vengeance. Apart from the fact that no one is perfect, especially if viewed through the lens of someone's subjectivity.

    Chavez wasn't all bad (he spent a lot on social projects), he wasn't all good (he bankrupted the country and then began the repression continued by his successor).

    Castro was an exception. Although he created a massive NHS in Cuba, he tried to destroy the world in 1962. If he'd succeeded, all those young fans who put his picture on the wall would have been radioactive ash.

    So I'd say he is the baddest of the baddest, even putting Mao, Adolf and Joe in the shade. They only intended to kill their enemies (numerous as they might be), not the whole world..
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sweeney74 said:

    I’m apparently logged in but can only see the Times 2, Law and Scotland sections.

    V odd

    They are having technical difficulties this morning
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Ms Cyclefree,

    St Paul never claimed to be perfect and no one is. I often wonder if in fifty years or so, we'll look back and complain about the current times. How stupid were they? Fretting about silly things that had no real purpose.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    So how long do we think before it goes bankrupt again ?

    Eighteen months seems about right.
    Depends if they have the same accounts team....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dura_Ace said:

    The British government unveiled their Brexit muppet some time ago.


    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1095965033367064576
  • Jonathan said:

    Bet on Beto?

    Bet 0 on Beto?
    I've thought for a while that Harris will the Dem nominee for Pres. & Beto would be the VP pick.

    That automatically brings Texas into play, as well as Arizona and Georgia...
This discussion has been closed.